PDA

View Full Version : Please Implement Chest Opening in time for GenCon 2014



Yoss
05-12-2014, 01:20 PM
Since we will want to be opening chests during the event to get the event mercenaries, that means we need to be able to, you know, open chests. I really don't want to be in a situation where all we can do is get a bunch of event-marked chests but not know whether or not we've actually achieved the event promos or not because of not being able to actually open them. Chest loot drops that are PvE related can just be placeholders, obviously.

GenCon is August 14-17 this year, for those who didn't know.

AswanJaguar
05-12-2014, 01:30 PM
3 months seems like plenty of time for this, I wouldn't worry too much Yoss.

Barkam
05-12-2014, 01:34 PM
But please not before AH and player direct trading and guilds.

deathandtexas
05-12-2014, 01:43 PM
3 months seems like plenty of time for this, I wouldn't worry too much Yoss.

You're probably right but based on the snail's pace at which this project has been going, who knows!

hexnaes
05-12-2014, 01:47 PM
You can receive mercenaries from spinning chests.

I would think that if chest opening isn't implemented, then they would probably allow those mercenaries and AA cards to be obtained from spinning during the event.

Kami
05-12-2014, 01:50 PM
Chest opening isn't super important as far as event times are concerned. Although we do probably want to open them so we know what we have earned during the event to know whether we need more chests or start trading.

As far as the current information goes, only chests generated during event times have event loot tables. So even if you can't open chests during the event, you can still open later and get the same event loot table. This also means you need to have earned that chest during the event times. Re-spinning an old chest pre-event will not give you an event loot table.

That being said, all chests currently in existence will not have the opportunity to roll for event loot tables. Unless this has changed and I'm completely unaware of it. ^^:

Yoss
05-12-2014, 01:59 PM
Chest opening isn't super important as far as event times are concerned. Although we do probably want to open them so we know what we have earned during the event to know whether we need more chests or start trading.

It's not important, but important? :confused:

Kami
05-12-2014, 02:28 PM
It's not important, but important? :confused:

I said it wasn't super important. At no point did I say it wasn't important.

Thrawn
05-12-2014, 02:31 PM
As far as the current information goes, only chests generated during event times have event loot tables. So even if you can't open chests during the event, you can still open later and get the same event loot table. This also means you need to have earned that chest during the event times. Re-spinning an old chest pre-event will not give you an event loot table.


This seems like an odd way to do it as it will make everyone want to save all Primal Packs to be opened only during events. In fact I wish I hadn't opened the ones I did if this is the case.

Xenavire
05-12-2014, 02:46 PM
It's not important, but important? :confused:

It is fairly obvious what he means, Yoss. The flags will be applied regardless of whether chests can be opened or not.

The point that makes it important is finding out what is inside, so those that want to spend the bare minimum can get exactly what they want, then stop.


EDIT: You know what? They should just scrap the whole stamp idea and just make a flat rarity event chest that comes out in addition to the normal chest. Unrollable, flat rarity so the chances of loot are fixed, and only dropping during the event. People can then keep the standard chests to roll on them, or save up the event chests to sell later. Nice and simple, and FAR less messy than what is currently 'known to be planned'.

Vorpal
05-12-2014, 02:49 PM
I thought opening the chest during gen con does nothing for you.

You need to generate the chest during gen con.

You don't open chests during gen con, you open packs during gen con that generate special gen con marked chests that you then open later at your leisure.

This is how it was explained to me. I could be wrong.

hex_colin
05-12-2014, 03:32 PM
Yes, you need to generate the chest (by opening a pack) during the event. But, that's no guarantee that you'll get any special loot. It's a chance at the event loot.

I think people potentially have unrealistic expectations about the rarity of the special events Mercs/AA, etc. They're unlikely to be guaranteed in say 5, or 10, or even 50 packs opened (and chests generated). They're still going to be reasonably difficult to acquire, unless, of course, you can actually make it to the event.

Xenavire
05-12-2014, 03:46 PM
Yes, you need to generate the chest (by opening a pack) during the event. But, that's no guarantee that you'll get any special loot. It's a chance at the event loot.

I think people potentially have unrealistic expectations about the rarity of the special events Mercs/AA, etc. They're unlikely to be guaranteed in say 5, or 10, or even 50 packs opened (and chests generated). They're still going to be reasonably difficult to acquire, unless, of course, you can actually make it to the event.

This depresses me. I have no way of actually getting to the event, like ever, and if I can end up not even getting those rewards, while still spending massive amounts of money (from my perspective), then they may as well not exist at all for me. I absolutely hate low chance items in MMO's - I would rather get the rewards by earning some kind of event based achievement, rather than rolling over and over with boosters that I can't afford to be buying.

ossuary
05-12-2014, 04:06 PM
Xen, for people in your situation (and mine), you might have to resign yourself to only occasionally seeing some of these special items drop for you personally, and just buy any mercenaries you want off the AH afterwards. Hopefully you can use your free draft and whatever prize boosters you have lying around to at least get a few shots at it, but the rest will have to come from clever spending on the AH. It'll probably be cheaper in the end to do it that way than to try to roll everything yourself.

Yoss
05-12-2014, 04:07 PM
I think people potentially have unrealistic expectations about the rarity of the special events Mercs/AA, etc. They're unlikely to be guaranteed in say 5, or 10, or even 50 packs opened (and chests generated). They're still going to be reasonably difficult to acquire, unless, of course, you can actually make it to the event.

The more rare they are, the more important it will be to have what the OP asked for so that you know whether or not you need more packs/chests.

Also, as I stated elsewhere, the average cost to acquire event perks in-client should not significantly exceed the cost of in-person event entry ($50 in the case of GenCon 2014). It can be a little higher, but should certainly be less than double.

sukebe
05-12-2014, 04:15 PM
Yes, you need to generate the chest (by opening a pack) during the event. But, that's no guarantee that you'll get any special loot. It's a chance at the event loot.

I think people potentially have unrealistic expectations about the rarity of the special events Mercs/AA, etc. They're unlikely to be guaranteed in say 5, or 10, or even 50 packs opened (and chests generated). They're still going to be reasonably difficult to acquire, unless, of course, you can actually make it to the event.

This makes me very happy :-) I always wanted them to be fairly rare drops from the chests. That way we still have a chance to get them but those that go to the event get them much more easily.

Of course, for this reason I really hope they have it set up to at least properly mark chests by the time gencon comes around. I would agree with the OP though that it would very much be preferable if we could open the chests during gencon so we know if we got all the promos or not. As it stands we will not know if we need to buy and open more packs in order to get our sets of promo cards before the event ends. I will gladly spend some extra money to ensure I get the promo items I want :-)

deathandtexas
05-12-2014, 04:23 PM
It is fairly obvious what he means, Yoss. The flags will be applied regardless of whether chests can be opened or not.

The point that makes it important is finding out what is inside, so those that want to spend the bare minimum can get exactly what they want, then stop.


EDIT: You know what? They should just scrap the whole stamp idea and just make a flat rarity event chest that comes out in addition to the normal chest. Unrollable, flat rarity so the chances of loot are fixed, and only dropping during the event. People can then keep the standard chests to roll on them, or save up the event chests to sell later. Nice and simple, and FAR less messy than what is currently 'known to be planned'.

That would take at least another three months of development.

Xenavire
05-12-2014, 04:28 PM
I still think that they should be fairly easy to obtain - they already said that they are using sleeves as the 'I was here' item from the cons, and only people at the cons can get them - the actual mercs and AA should be easier to get, because there should be no reason to ever have an item worth so much from a con.

I have always hated the idea of con exclusives, and while I can live with pure cosmetics (the sleeves) I am absolutely not happy with the idea of having rare mercs. And the AA shouldn't be that rare either, since people will want playsets, and even people at the con may not be able to manage that - anything where you 'need' multiples of should be relatively common (I could live with them being rare if it wasn't for such a short duration. I mean we are talking about a matter of days, that will never, ever repeat.)

I also hate RNG based rewards on principle, especially if there is a very short limited duration that will never repeat. Players farm items in MMO's at ridiculous drop rates, sometimes locked to once a week, and those items are incredibly rare as it is - in a week long event, those items would be nearly non-existent. So I really hope the chances of getting an item is greater than 10% off any rarity of chest, because otherwise things are going to be absolutely horrible for any person who actually enjoys using these items.

Seriously, the rarer event items are, the less I want to invest in the game. There is nothing worse than feeling like second class, whether it is intentional or not, and it is worse when it is avoidable.




That would take at least another three months of development.

Why? All it would take is creating a new rarity of chest (which would replace the creation of a stamp on the original chest) and a new loot table. It would actually be LESS work, because they wouldn't have to edit existing chest loot tables for every little event, they would just create one single loot table that would work globally during that event.

Yoss
05-12-2014, 04:31 PM
AA cards fall under "pure cosmetics" in my book. No one "needs" even a single copy, and 4 is definitely not required.

EDIT:
Side note, the Hex game servers are going to crash so hard during GenCon...

Xenavire
05-12-2014, 04:34 PM
AA cards fall under "pure cosmetics" in my book.

I half agree. They can be used in-game, so having them in your collection when you don't have the original still counts as having the original (where sleeves would have no effect at all on your collection.) So they are, and they aren't. And they are still going to be more sought after than mercs in the long run for players who want to play with matching sets (meaning that you would need 4x as many to drop to satisfy collectors, compared to mercs.)

hex_colin
05-12-2014, 04:42 PM
My sense is that Mercs will be much the same as AA over time too. Sure, they'll have different flavor, but we'll see a reasonable amount of repetition in what they can actually accomplish for us in game. Not having one is never going to be the difference between accomplishing something or not.

Also, if they drop like candy from a piņata, where's the thrill in actually getting one? ;) The philosophy seems to be that they should be rare enough that if you see one you're really happy you got it, either because you want it, or you can get something else by selling it.

AswanJaguar
05-12-2014, 04:45 PM
That would take at least another three months of development.
Why?

Obvious troll is obvious.

I think either packs or chests stamped with special event or holiday markers would be a nice touch. I want a chest with bunny ears or reindeer antlers. :cool:

hex_colin
05-12-2014, 04:46 PM
Obvious troll is obvious.

I think either packs or chests stamped with special event or holiday markers would be a nice touch. I want a chest with bunny ears or reindeer antlers. :cool:

They already alter the icon for chests we can no longer roll, clearly the tech is already in place. :) Gotta be a D20 for GenCon...

AswanJaguar
05-12-2014, 04:51 PM
They already alter the icon for chests we can no longer roll, clearly the tech is already in place. :) Gotta be a D20 for GenCon...

Given that it can spawn a Gax, that sounds appropriate. We'll need a tooltip that indicates what special event the chest is eligible for as well so people aren't confused. One of their graphics designers could have a lot of fun with these.

Xenavire
05-12-2014, 04:53 PM
My sense is that Mercs will be much the same as AA over time too. Sure, they'll have different flavor, but we'll see a reasonable amount of repetition in what they can actually accomplish for us in game. Not having one is never going to be the difference between accomplishing something or not.

Also, if they drop like candy from a piņata, where's the thrill in actually getting one? ;) The philosophy seems to be that they should be rare enough that if you see one you're really happy you got it, either because you want it, or you can get something else by selling it.

Seriously though, as a kid I fucking loved piņata's. I like rewards for opening stuff, who doesn't? I would much rather have doubles and triples of everything, than to have nothing at all, ESPECIALLY when it is a timed event. You could walk away with 50 of each item and still turn a heft profit by saving them for a few months, or better, years. And who does it hurt to have more out there?

Xenavire
05-12-2014, 04:55 PM
Obvious troll is obvious.

I think either packs or chests stamped with special event or holiday markers would be a nice touch. I want a chest with bunny ears or reindeer antlers. :cool:

Why am I a troll? If the tech is in place for both options (which it seems to be), then which will be more overall work? Editing multiple loot tables each year, or simply being able to create a single loot table, and never have to touch it otherwise? It would also simplify things for the players. I don't think it is stupid or unreasonable, so where exactly was I being a troll?

AswanJaguar
05-12-2014, 05:01 PM
Why am I a troll? If the tech is in place for both options (which it seems to be), then which will be more overall work? Editing multiple loot tables each year, or simply being able to create a single loot table, and never have to touch it otherwise? It would also simplify things for the players. I don't think it is stupid or unreasonable, so where exactly was I being a troll?

I was referring to the original comment, Xen. I needed to quote it in context. :)

Yoss
05-12-2014, 05:14 PM
My sense is that Mercs will be much the same as AA over time too. Sure, they'll have different flavor, but we'll see a reasonable amount of repetition in what they can actually accomplish for us in game. Not having one is never going to be the difference between accomplishing something or not.

Also, if they drop like candy from a piņata, where's the thrill in actually getting one? ;) The philosophy seems to be that they should be rare enough that if you see one you're really happy you got it, either because you want it, or you can get something else by selling it.

If they drop 1 of each reward from every 25 packs or so (AKA $50 retail to get one of each event item on average), that should be fine to avoid the "darn, I have 10 of these already" problem. Excepting for Colin, of course. He'll say "darn, I have 1000 of these already". :)

EDIT:
This assumes that people in person do not get more than one of anything for their $50 entry fee. If being there lets you get multiples, then that multiple needs to be divided into the numbers I gave above, yielding a lower number of packs to get the rewards.

Xenavire
05-12-2014, 05:17 PM
I was referring to the original comment, Xen. I needed to quote it in context. :)

OK, fair enough. I think I am going to stop posting for tonight and just observe, because I am under the weather and it is seriously impairing my though process right now. Sorry for being rude.

ZillahEnoch
05-12-2014, 06:00 PM
Not having one is never going to be the difference between accomplishing something or not.

Sure it won't be a necessity to "beat the game" or from a Spike point of view. But as a Johnny-type player, not having one will make me feel like that is one less crazy deck I can build. Especially since they are probably going to be fairly unique as far as mechanics go.
The AA/Sleeves I will want from a collector's point of view, but they feel less "needed" to me as they are only cosmetic. I'm sure other players will have a completely different opinion on what is important though.

What I mean is you can't really discard people's interest by saying "you don't need this so it's not that important". In the end we don't need anything else than the free starter to play, it doesn't keep us from arguing about the VIP program, starter price or packs price on the AH (Not that it will change things, but... maybe ? :o).

I know we will probably be able to buy all those collector things at the AH, but being able get them for something like 20~25 packs would be nice since so many people are holding on their packs just because of that :)

hex_colin
05-12-2014, 06:10 PM
What I mean is you can't really discard people's interest by saying "you don't need this so it's not that important". In the end we don't need anything else than the free starter to play, it doesn't keep us from arguing about the VIP program, starter price or packs price on the AH (Not that it will change things, but... maybe ? :o).

I know we will probably be able to buy all those collector things at the AH, but being able get them for something like 20~25 packs would be nice since so many people are holding on their packs just because of that :)

I wasn't discarding anyone's interest. I'm saying that just because someone wants something doesn't mean it should be easy to obtain. Especially since there is more than one way to acquire it - actually attend the event, get a lucky chest, buy it on the AH, etc.

There are 2 key priorities in play here: building an incredible game, AND building value in people's collections. They have to be balanced.

ossuary
05-12-2014, 07:30 PM
There are people from GenCon 2013 that got DOZENS of copies of the codes to get Prospero, the sleeves, and the AA (each person only got 1 copy of Gax though, because it was a one-of for the entry fee, not a prize to be won). Even if it's hard to get them from the treasure chests during GenCon 2014, they're not exactly going to be scarce on the AH. :)

Dynimix
05-12-2014, 07:50 PM
What is the plan for Hex at GenCon?

sukebe
05-12-2014, 08:09 PM
I am hoping the drop chance of each promo is not more than 5%. Or maybe they could make the sleeves a bit more common. I want the mercs (and to a much lesser extend the AAs) to be highly collectible and that cant happen if they have a high drop rate from chests. Does this mean I won't necessarily be able to get them all? It may very well mean that and will likely drive me crazy for a bit. Despite this I want the times when I do open a promo merc to be memorable.

Remember, these promo items can be acquired without having to go to the convention or buy/open lots of boosters. You can buy them from in game AH or almost certainly from ebay (which by the way still have portensio and Gax promos for sale, though their price have gone up from when i saw them last). This means that you can get those 2 mercs for ~$60 + shipping. thats just 30 packs + maybe 5 more packs for shipping. thats not to bad at all I don't think.

ossuary
05-12-2014, 09:34 PM
Wow, someone is charging $10 to ship a piece of paper? Which you can't even confirm hasn't been entered into the system yet (as soon as they implement the GenCon codes in-game)?

Good to know eBay is still full of greedy scammers. :p

Patrigan
05-12-2014, 10:39 PM
My sense is that Mercs will be much the same as AA over time too. Sure, they'll have different flavor, but we'll see a reasonable amount of repetition in what they can actually accomplish for us in game. Not having one is never going to be the difference between accomplishing something or not.

Also, if they drop like candy from a piņata, where's the thrill in actually getting one? ;) The philosophy seems to be that they should be rare enough that if you see one you're really happy you got it, either because you want it, or you can get something else by selling it.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement (which is odd, because I usually do agree with you). I have said it before and I will continue to repeat it: if there's something that has an actual play value, it should NOT be exclusive or restricted to groups or whatever. I personally loathe te kickstarter mercs, I think they should be obtainable outside of Kickstarter. I already have them all. Just look at Ebonrock (http://hextcg.gamepedia.com/Burgamot_Ebonrock), his level 20 opens up so many cool combinations. If I hadn't kickstarted the game, I would NEVER be able to play that power. And trading is insufficient, because there's only a couple thousands Monkeys of the Nine Tails (http://hextcg.gamepedia.com/Monkey_of_the_9_Tails) (or Aethynia (http://hextcg.gamepedia.com/Aethynia)). These are mercenaries that many many players out there will never be able to experience. Do you really want to tell someone: "yeah, I know! it's really awesome! But no you will NEVER be able to get it. NEEEVVVVEEERRRR!!!" I sure don't want to tell them that (and I already had to).

There are kickstarters out there that I simply don't back because of the game impacting exclusives. Hex is got away with this for me because I know that CZE is capable of making a good TCG. I do know that I'm not the only one that ignored the kickstarter because of the exclusives. You can explain them about the sleeves and the AAs, but there's no good explanation for mercs. Sorry Colin, but, "there will be more than enough" is NOT a good explanation, in fact it is just a dismissal of the point brought up, which makes it even worse to bear.

This only applies to mercs, AAs and sleeves need that special exclusivity feeling. They don't impact the game in such a way that you will not get that experience elsewhere.

Miyordon
05-12-2014, 10:39 PM
In response to the Mercs on Ebay being already used as posted by Ossuary:

If they show up and the code is scratched off already, that would be cause for alarm. But, otherwise, it should be fine. Although, I did message that seller months ago when it was confirmed that mercs would be tradeable as them being untradeable should no longer be a selling point. He saw fit to agree, and then ignore my advice.

Chiany
05-12-2014, 11:06 PM
I agree that Gen Con "exclusives" shouldn't be to hard to obtain, even they have only a small inpact on the actual gameplay.

So the fact that Sleeves will only be obtainable when actually attending is understandable.
I as a collector would love to have them, but I can live without that.

But AA's (wether it's a common or an legendary) should be easy enough to get for everyone, and yes I mean a playset of them.
Same goes for the Mercenaries, but luckily, you only need one of those.

But I trust Cory keeping up with his attitude of customers first.

YourOpponent
05-12-2014, 11:32 PM
Yes, you need to generate the chest (by opening a pack) during the event. But, that's no guarantee that you'll get any special loot. It's a chance at the event loot.

I think people potentially have unrealistic expectations about the rarity of the special events Mercs/AA, etc. They're unlikely to be guaranteed in say 5, or 10, or even 50 packs opened (and chests generated). They're still going to be reasonably difficult to acquire, unless, of course, you can actually make it to the event.

I could of sworn that when Cory first made the news update that they would be able to be earned from chests that the drop rate would be closer to 1/1000 of getting an event mercenary from a chest.

sukebe
05-13-2014, 12:52 AM
I agree that Gen Con "exclusives" shouldn't be to hard to obtain, even they have only a small inpact on the actual gameplay.

So the fact that Sleeves will only be obtainable when actually attending is understandable.
I as a collector would love to have them, but I can live without that.

But AA's (wether it's a common or an legendary) should be easy enough to get for everyone, and yes I mean a playset of them.
Same goes for the Mercenaries, but luckily, you only need one of those.

But I trust Cory keeping up with his attitude of customers first.

Personally, I feel that them making the mercs rare drops in chests is a players first way to go about it. If they are too common then they are not special. I am crazy about collecting all the promo mercs (even though I have very little money) and do not feel they would worth the effort if they were easy to get. If mercs were still un-trade able then I would understand the many "make them a common drop" people, but they are trade able so we all will have the chance to get them long past gencon. Will the price be high? probably. Will it be as high as buying the packs yourself? I would bet not.


I could of sworn that when Cory first made the news update that they would be able to be earned from chests that the drop rate would be closer to 1/1000 of getting an event mercenary from a chest.

That is too rare even for me :-) I think 2% to 5% for each promo separately would be a good level of rare. I don't know anything from inside like Colin does though so this is all just opinion :-)

Lyckan
05-13-2014, 01:50 AM
My two cents:
I think that at least one of the promotions should be easy to get since it is still going to be rare, it is after all a very limited time offer.
To be able to have something to later show off that I actually played during this holliday and/or event should be doable even if I cannot afford to crack 1000 packs to have a reasonable chans to get 1 promo IMHO.

Marsden
05-13-2014, 02:19 AM
I could of sworn that when Cory first made the news update that they would be able to be earned from chests that the drop rate would be closer to 1/1000 of getting an event mercenary from a chest.

I can't find anything about drop rate on https://hextcg.com/exclusives-treasure-and-mercenaries/ or Cory's posts at the time.


I think that at least one of the promotions should be easy to get since it is still going to be rare, it is after all a very limited time offer.

I agree completely. I think it should be no more than 5-10 packs cracked during a promotion to get the special cards.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 03:09 AM
Seriously, I have to say this again - they will already be rare enough because the event is timed. It could last for two weeks, at 100% drop rate, and they will still be too rare for every player to have one in a few years.

Timed events should be the least RNG reliant of any promo. They are already rare enough, without screwing the people who were there for it.

zadies
05-13-2014, 06:24 AM
The issue comes xen is that they were a means of getting them if you didn't spend the money to go to the event. But most people feel getting them shouldn't be EASIER/CHEAPER when you do not attend the event then attending so feel if you want a full set you should basically be paying the ticket price for the event. If they are much more expensive then that then I can see your issue, but those attending the event specifically for HEX should not be charged MORE then those that did not attend the event and got it through chests.

mudkip
05-13-2014, 07:12 AM
The issue comes xen is that they were a means of getting them if you didn't spend the money to go to the event. But most people feel getting them shouldn't be EASIER/CHEAPER when you do not attend the event then attending so feel if you want a full set you should basically be paying the ticket price for the event. If they are much more expensive then that then I can see your issue, but those attending the event specifically for HEX should not be charged MORE then those that did not attend the event and got it through chests.

I disagree: People attending an event should not get any in-game benefit. It undermines the mission of Hex.

One of the big draws for me with Hex was the fact that it was a digital, cloud based TCG - physical locations no longer mattered! Doing anything physical, such as visiting Con's, should be it's own reward. If you're only visiting a Con to get some in-game goodies, there's something wrong with you and the system.

Getting in-game rewards is bullshit because it benefits people who live closer to the events. You argue people who pay the ticket price should get in-game rewards. Why should Hex players in Australia be charged $3000 more and ~3 days of their life, just to get the same benefits as people living in Indiana?

Kami
05-13-2014, 07:54 AM
I disagree: People attending an event should not get any in-game benefit. It undermines the mission of Hex.

One of the big draws for me with Hex was the fact that it was a digital, cloud based TCG - physical locations no longer mattered! Doing anything physical, such as visiting Con's, should be it's own reward. If you're only visiting a Con to get some in-game goodies, there's something wrong with you and the system.

Getting in-game rewards is bullshit because it benefits people who live closer to the events. You argue people who pay the ticket price should get in-game rewards. Why should Hex players in Australia be charged $3000 more and ~3 days of their life, just to get the same benefits as people living in Indiana?

I've actually made similar arguments in the past, in fact, the entire community has. That's how we managed to get everything but sleeves made available at all - through digital rewards/chests during event times.

Unfortunately, it's still unclear how difficult it will be to obtain event items via chests and such. And sleeves are still physical event only - Cory was adamant about having at least something restricted to in-person only.

Vorpal
05-13-2014, 08:31 AM
Sleeves have no impact on game play, so them being exclusive to those who attend is fine with me.

if you want them that badly, attend! Or buy one off of ebay afterwards.

I can't quite understand the people who say "If I don't have absolutely everything the game will be ruined for me!"

I'm sure if you want it enough you can find someone who will take your money.

I do think it would be nice if SOME gen con related item had a decently high drop rate so that people who do several drafts during that time have a good chance of getting it, but there's no need for all of them to be so easy to obtain.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 09:26 AM
if you want them that badly, attend! Or buy one off of ebay afterwards.


Some people can't. Like they cannot attend, and it has nothing to do with choice. While I can live with sleeves being exclusive (they are purely cosmetic, and seem to be the only purely cosmetic item in the game) anything that can affect gameplay (including con AA, in my opinion) should be common enough that anyone who can afford the 'entry fee' price should be able to get at least one of each item. The rest can be bought later, but if it ends up being 100-200 boosters for a single item, then that is completely unfair to anyone who physically cannot attend.

Yoss
05-13-2014, 11:40 AM
However many promos a player would get for attending in person, that same number should be attainable for anyone attending in client, and the price should be roughly the same. It is $50 to get into GenCon. If being there means you can get 10 of each promo, then $50 spent in the client (25 packs) should net you 10 of each promo. If being there means you can get only 1 of each promo, then those same packs should net you only 1 of each promo (on average).

Hatts
05-13-2014, 12:01 PM
@Yoss don't forget the time invested. In your gencon example to get a Portensio of Avon you needed to redeem 5 points (2 wins and a loss or worst case scenario 5 losses.)

For the sake of argument let's value our time at $10/hour and you need 2-4 hours of playing to get your 5 points (I understand there was a lot of waiting in line.) That's $70-90 per Avon, or on average 35 to 45 packs total.

I also think if you polled everyone at gencon on how much they spent to be there, the number would be an order of magnitude larger than $50... The point is to keep an incentive to go to these events.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 12:27 PM
@Yoss don't forget the time invested. In your gencon example to get a Portensio of Avon you needed to redeem 5 points (2 wins and a loss or worst case scenario 5 losses.)

For the sake of argument let's value our time at $10/hour and you need 2-4 hours of playing to get your 5 points (I understand there was a lot of waiting in line.) That's $70-90 per Avon, or on average 35 to 45 packs total.

I also think if you polled everyone at gencon on how much they spent to be there, the number would be an order of magnitude larger than $50... The point is to keep an incentive to go to these events.

Are you implying that people are only going to Gencon for Hex? And that the entire cost should be leveraged against the people who cannot attend? Because people only going to Gencon to see Hex are making a conscious choice to do so (and I frankly think that it is a wasted opportunity, as there would be a lot more to see, even if 99% of your time would be spent at the Hex booth). And the actual fee to enter the Hex booth last year was $10, which I believe got you the sleeves and Gax automatically (and I think that covers the price very well), meaning that any time spent is put towards the other promotional items - at your pricing, that would be $20-$40 per Avon, and less than $10 per AA. That still adds up to approximately $50 in the best case scenario to have one of everything.

Besides, a lot of the people who take time off are either taking vacation days they would have used on other days, or better, paid vacation days, so that cost is greatly reduced as well.

How would you value the time of someone who lives around the corner from the convention center, only paid the $50 for a ticket and spent a bunch of time looking at other stuff, then saw the Hex booth and put in the $10 to play for 3 wins (approx 3 hours), and that person did it all on a paid vacation day?

This is why con freebies piss me off. They are never equal or fair, period.

Hatts
05-13-2014, 12:44 PM
This is why con freebies piss me off. They are never equal or fair, period.

Right. So let's stop trying. That's actually what I was getting at, this argument is getting absurd. Pretending that the only cost for the con exclusives is the entry fee (or the hex tournament entry fee) doesn't reflect reality.

They shouldn't be easily obtainable by cracking the same number of packs as it would cost of entry. Cory wants them to be a draw for those going to the event.

They do not need to make it fair for everyone, and if they wanted to, that's not the right approach. The fair approach would be to add the mercenary to everyone's account for free, but who would care about collecting them if that was the case?

mudkip
05-13-2014, 01:01 PM
However many promos a player would get for attending in person, that same number should be attainable for anyone attending in client, and the price should be roughly the same. It is $50 to get into GenCon. If being there means you can get 10 of each promo, then $50 spent in the client (25 packs) should net you 10 of each promo. If being there means you can get only 1 of each promo, then those same packs should net you only 1 of each promo (on average).
Someone mentioned this earlier (Xen I think?) but luck shouldn't be applied to people who don't attend. This again is adding perks to people who attend. They already get to hang out with the CZE guys amongst other fun things, so why should they be rewarded more?


Right. So let's stop trying. That's actually what I was getting at, this argument is getting absurd. Pretending that the only cost for the con exclusives is the entry fee (or the hex tournament entry fee) doesn't reflect reality.
Completely agree, but more on the side of getting rid of it.

I really wish anything impacting in-game remained in game and there was no favoring people based on their physical locations. The 100% digital approach is one of big selling points that attracted me to Hex.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 01:01 PM
No, the fair thing is letting people get them out of chests during the event at a decent rate, or granting them to anyone who logs in during that event, free of charge. Making people fight RNG and have them frantically scramble just to get something that is handed to others on a platter is not fair or pleasant. We want the game to not become a shitfest like WoW, having hundreds of exclusive items.

The time limit and the one-off nature of the event is more than restricting enough. That alone would make it collectible.

And we still don't get the sleeves, which is already a draw for people to visit the booth. (And frankly, people who are there, brand new to the game, will have no idea that those 'exclusive' items are available in-game, and there is little chance they will care, because they will still have more than everyone else, and they will have found something new to be a part of.)

I doubt Hex has any need to attract repeat visitors. They are going to end up going if they like the game anyway, right? The con is all about getting new people in, and any freebie will do that. I was at Gamecom last year, and all the booths were swamped, even the ones giving away German magazines and nothing else. Free stuff makes people insane.

BossHoss
05-13-2014, 01:15 PM
Some people can't. Like they cannot attend, and it has nothing to do with choice. While I can live with sleeves being exclusive (they are purely cosmetic, and seem to be the only purely cosmetic item in the game) anything that can affect gameplay (including con AA, in my opinion) should be common enough that anyone who can afford the 'entry fee' price should be able to get at least one of each item. The rest can be bought later, but if it ends up being 100-200 boosters for a single item, then that is completely unfair to anyone who physically cannot attend.

This can be taken hypocritically since you were also a KS backer. The relationship within the comparison is your "distance" to GenCon is equal to others "Time" missing the KS. People who missed KS was also not by choice. KS backers received many in game advantages (many of them much larger/stronger than a single merc) that provide boosts, perks, mercs and free cards but nothing is so strong that it breaks the game. By not wanting highly limited supply of Con exclusive items you are essentially advocating for all KS backers to forfeit their exclusives because it is not fair that others could not be there. The fact that CZE has allowed for none attendees even a chance at getting these for not being there is amazingly generous. If you did not get lucky during your Con chest rolls there is the option of purchasing it for 100-200 packs like you said... That price sounds ridiculous? Maybe you got lucky and one of your "prizes" (KS rewards) that you received during the last "Con" (KickStarter) and it is worth 400-800 packs and you now have your playset through AH wheeling and dealing. If this collectible "mini game" is not existent then Hex is not hex anymore and we should all give everything back, all pay a flat rate and everyone all receive the exact same collections. I personally signed up for a MMO/TCG and not an MMO/HHE (Here have everything)

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 01:21 PM
Actually, these situations are identical - the KS was a limited time event, and so is Gencon. I am not asking for anything other than an even playing field for everyone during that time limit.

And I actually don't care if people in the future get some kind of chance the the exclusive KS items. I felt like it was a bad idea, but I just accepted that because it was a timed event, it wasn't changing. If they released 'Alternate art' versions of the mercs and the PvE promo's, that wouldn't even ruffle my feathers, I would actually support it. I can't advocate giving the same exact items because of the promises they made, but the only item I would ever object to is the Spectral Lotus garden (because even as an Alt Art version, the very promise of the card was that it would never be done again, and that would make people greatly upset.) A lesser version wouldn't bother me at all though.

Hatts
05-13-2014, 01:24 PM
I think a sense of entitlement from those who wish to obtain all promo's is causing them to try to impose a fair system on a collectible market which is inherently unfair. Not everyone is going to be able to get everything, that's what makes a collectible market. It's not fair and the more you try to make it fair the worse it is for the collectible market. If the system was fair (everyone had everything) the collectible market would be dead.

Personally I prefer a strong market for my collection over a fair one.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 01:35 PM
I think a sense of entitlement from those who wish to obtain all promo's is causing them to try to impose a fair system on a collectible market which is inherently unfair. Not everyone is going to be able to get everything, that's what makes a collectible market. It's not fair and the more you try to make it fair the worse it is for the collectible market. If the system was fair (everyone had everything) the collectible market would be dead.

Personally I prefer a strong market for my collection over a fair one.

There is a difference between collectible, and impossible to attain within normal expectations. Everything outside of boosters should be earnable with some dedication and hard work, or easily during event times. And again, I am not saying we should have everything (the sleeves will remain exclusive).

And I still haven't heard any arguments against the time factor - look at the King tier. They were infinitely available for 30 days. How many exist? And that number will never increase, it can only 'decrease' as people quit. We are looking at a period of about a week (depending on how much leeway CZE gives us) to obtain a one-time item. The same logic applies, there will be a very limited supply, even if everyone manages to get 2+ at the time the event is on. Especially the AA, since the average collector will want 4, the supply will quickly dwindle compared to demand. And when the Mercs affect gameplay, they should be widely available (unless they expect to 'reprint' the exact effect over and over.)

Hatts
05-13-2014, 01:53 PM
There is a difference between collectible, and impossible to attain within normal expectations. Everything outside of boosters should be earnable with some dedication and hard work, or easily during event times. And again, I am not saying we should have everything (the sleeves will remain exclusive).

And I still haven't heard any arguments against the time factor - look at the King tier. They were infinitely available for 30 days. How many exist? And that number will never increase, it can only 'decrease' as people quit. We are looking at a period of about a week (depending on how much leeway CZE gives us) to obtain a one-time item. The same logic applies, there will be a very limited supply, even if everyone manages to get 2+ at the time the event is on. Especially the AA, since the average collector will want 4, the supply will quickly dwindle compared to demand. And when the Mercs affect gameplay, they should be widely available (unless they expect to 'reprint' the exact effect over and over.)

I've bolded a few statements where I think we are disagreeing. Why does this need to be the case? I don't think this needs to be fair, and I think the "unfairness" is what creates a healthy collectible market.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 02:06 PM
I've bolded a few statements where I think we are disagreeing. Why does this need to be the case? I don't think this needs to be fair, and I think the "unfairness" is what creates a healthy collectible market.

Well, look at MTG - they rely on boosters for 90% of their collectible market. The rest are judge promos, or other event promos (that you earn, and don't just get handed as a door prize). I am not completely sure of everything they have given away, but almost everything that has any value is alternate art (usually judge promos) or old cards. I don't see why we need to add so many new types of collectible items that will have worth that rivals a competitive decks price - it makes no sense to add to what can already be a healthy market.

And yet we are getting mercs, equipment, crafting recipes, sleeves, and possibly more that I have forgotten, or have never been mentioned. And MTG doesn't have many gameplay changing items out there (the only one that springs to mind was the planar deck ruleset. I have no idea how they distributed those cards, or if they ere ever legal in tournaments.) But when it comes down to it, pretty much everything ever printed in MTG was available in packs, and they are doing fine, being one of the most collectible things out there.

NemesiN
05-13-2014, 02:08 PM
So. Here is the thing. HEX TCG is a TCG. First word being TRADING. Nobody is supposed to have the same as everybody else. TCGs by nature are based around RNG. Every pack you open is RNG, even with paper games. AA cards do not give any kind of competitive advantage over people that wont be at the event and will be tradable. Mercs that can only be acquired by being at the event will also be tradable. The fact that CZE is letting people sitting at home get a chance at the event promos is already way more than they have to do. Everybody is going to have to trade to get cards they want. Nobody is going to be able to make all the decks they want to play by just drafting or opening packs. The same can be said for Mercs and AA cards. This game is intended to have an economy and by putting chase items in the economy it helps drive it. There is nothing unfair or wrong about having timed/event exclusives. Even IF trading of the items would be not allowed.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 02:17 PM
There is nothing unfair or wrong about having timed/event exclusives.

Exclusives are the very definition of unfair, no matter how you decide to try and spin it. One group of people gets something that others cannot. That is instant inequality. And when something is not equal, it is unfair.

As I have already said, I can live with sleeves being exclusive (already a great tag for saying 'I was there', and a very nice perk for attending an event) but anything that can impact gameplay should have equal availability. If it is a timed event, then it needs to not be RNG based (or be common enough that those who were there during the event and got unlucky can pick one up at a reasonable price.)

I do not support event items being exclusive based on location. I have never liked that idea, EVER. I have played many games that do it, and I hate the exclusivity each and every time. There will always be rare things to chase in a TCG, especially since we have PvE to factor in as well. We don't need to make the issue worse.

NemesiN
05-13-2014, 02:21 PM
Well, look at MTG - they rely on boosters for 90% of their collectible market. The rest are judge promos, or other event promos (that you earn, and don't just get handed as a door prize). I am not completely sure of everything they have given away, but almost everything that has any value is alternate art (usually judge promos) or old cards. I don't see why we need to add so many new types of collectible items that will have worth that rivals a competitive decks price - it makes no sense to add to what can already be a healthy market.

And yet we are getting mercs, equipment, crafting recipes, sleeves, and possibly more that I have forgotten, or have never been mentioned. And MTG doesn't have many gameplay changing items out there (the only one that springs to mind was the planar deck ruleset. I have no idea how they distributed those cards, or if they ere ever legal in tournaments.) But when it comes down to it, pretty much everything ever printed in MTG was available in packs, and they are doing fine, being one of the most collectible things out there.

MTG also has tons of alternate art cards for just showing up to events. PAX promos, Comic-Con promos. MTG also does super short print sets. Sorry did you want that commander set? Had to preorder it or else you wont see those cards again. Oversized cards. The list goes on.

NemesiN
05-13-2014, 02:23 PM
Exclusives are the very definition of unfair, no matter how you decide to try and spin it. One group of people gets something that others cannot. That is instant inequality. And when something is not equal, it is unfair.

As I have already said, I can live with sleeves being exclusive (already a great tag for saying 'I was there', and a very nice perk for attending an event) but anything that can impact gameplay should have equal availability. If it is a timed event, then it needs to not be RNG based (or be common enough that those who were there during the event and got unlucky can pick one up at a reasonable price.)

I do not support event items being exclusive based on location. I have never liked that idea, EVER. I have played many games that do it, and I hate the exclusivity each and every time. There will always be rare things to chase in a TCG, especially since we have PvE to factor in as well. We don't need to make the issue worse.

Those people that got the thing that other people couldn't also made time and went out of their way to go to GenCon. Giving it to everybody when they went through that effort would be unfair to them if anything else. They did something and earned it. Do you think every single person is some 20 something guy with no life or responsibilities?

EDIT: And it is not impossible to get those promos if you don't go. They will be tradable and you can just trade for them.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 02:24 PM
MTG also has tons of alternate art cards for just showing up to events. PAX promos, Comic-Con promos. MTG also does super short print sets. Sorry did you want that commander set? Had to preorder it or else you wont see those cards again. Oversized cards. The list goes on.

And do they alter the gameplay experience like Mercs do? I didn't think so. I mentioned a bunch of promos, and I admitted my knowledge is not perfect on the matter, but they are essentially cosmetic the same as sleeves. I would like AA from Hex events to be more common (because sleeves can fill the role of a fun exclusive item) but the mercs issue is absolutely a problem.

hexnaes
05-13-2014, 02:25 PM
I know that its been said the rewards would come from chests during the events, but I think this is a terrible way to handle the promos.

From GenCon players had to play games to earn the rewards. Because this is a digital tcg, why not have special tournaments that cost only platinum (say 500-1000) that give you promo rewards depending on how well you do.

The tournaments could have a prize (like Gax at gencon) for just entering the special tournaments and offer other rewards for placing well.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 02:27 PM
Those people that got the thing that other people couldn't also made time and went out of their way to go to GenCon. Giving it to everybody when they went through that effort would be unfair to them if anything else. They did something and earned it. Do you think every single person is some 20 something guy with no life or responsibilities?

No. No. You should never be rewarded for taking a goddamn vacation! You already took time off, paid to go there, all for the experience. I think gifting things at the door is a stupid idea, and I have been to a con myself. I went for the experience, and that is all anyone should expect.

I already think giving the sleeves is a generous move, and I am pretty sure people get a goody bag of fun stuff as they walk in, but gameplay altering items should not be given to people just because they took a holiday.

NemesiN
05-13-2014, 02:38 PM
And do they alter the gameplay experience like Mercs do? I didn't think so. I mentioned a bunch of promos, and I admitted my knowledge is not perfect on the matter, but they are essentially cosmetic the same as sleeves. I would like AA from Hex events to be more common (because sleeves can fill the role of a fun exclusive item) but the mercs issue is absolutely a problem.

MTG has plenty of Archenemy promo cards that you can only get from events that aren't just AA. They also have promo Planechase cards that were only obtainable through events. These cards alter the gameplay.

And they aren't getting rewarded for just taking a vacation. If I take the week off to travel and go to Gen-Con, guess what, I lost a weeks vacation that I could have taken to go to Hawaii or something. They are giving something up and going out of their way to be there and support the booths that will be at Gen-Con. It is not cheap to rent space at cons and if they want to reward those people that make the cons possible, they should.

hacky
05-13-2014, 02:41 PM
No. No. You should never be rewarded for taking a goddamn vacation!

What the hell is your problem? I take the time and effort to make sure I can take my "goddamn vacation" at the time and place that I want, and you want me not to benefit at no expense to you?

Is that not the very definition of envy?

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 02:47 PM
MTG has plenty of Archenemy promo cards that you can only get from events that aren't just AA. They also have promo Planechase cards that were only obtainable through events. These cards alter the gameplay.

And they aren't getting rewarded for just taking a vacation. If I take the week off to travel and go to Gen-Con, guess what, I lost a weeks vacation that I could have taken to go to Hawaii or something. They are giving something up and going out of their way to be there and support the booths that will be at Gen-Con. It is not cheap to rent space at cons and if they want to reward those people that make the cons possible, they should.

I was unaware of schemes. What modes of play are they legal in? Because if they are only allowed in casual games, or are otherwise banned in legal play, then they don't serve the same prupose as Mercs (who fundamentally change the way a deck works in what will be a very, VERY popular for of legitimate play, even if it isn't competitive.)

And choosing to go to a con rather than Hawaii is a conscious choice that person makes. If a person wants to go to a con, and indulge in their hobbies, that is their choice - they should be rewarded by the experience, just as they would be by going to Hawaii.

And people would go to con with or without the exclusive items. Anyone who goes for the items over the experience is the whole problem - you should go to have fun, not to go home with 'swag'. This whole concept of giving out free items only appeals to greed, which is why I would frankly not even have the exclusives in the first place. However, CZE has already done it and promised to do more, so the only fair thing is to make those mercs etc available ingame. Anyone going to the con to support Hex will still be supporting Hex, and they will still get exclusive sleeves.

I don't see that as unreasonable at all, what I see as unreasonable is the expectation that a company should be giving away free things that are impossible to get anywhere else. I hate it so much, and it is a horrible practice. Going to a con is already the same as being part of an exclusive club most of the time (thanks to all the meet-ups etc) and then they get even more piled on - it sickens me.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 02:48 PM
What the hell is your problem? I take the time and effort to make sure I can take my "goddamn vacation" at the time and place that I want, and you want me not to benefit at no expense to you?

Is that not the very definition of envy?

And you would take the vacation without the rewards, wouldn't you? Hypocrite.

hacky
05-13-2014, 02:53 PM
And you would take the vacation without the rewards, wouldn't you? Hypocrite.

I go to GenCon, PAX Prime, Blizzcon, PAX East, and E3. And previously any WoWTCG event that I was able to travel to. I'll be at HexCon. I'll go to PAX South if I can.

What do all these events have in common? Gaming events. I go to them with or without a specific reward. I would be at GenCon even if CZE weren't there. And you better believe, that any convention exclusive or offer that I see and want at any of these, I will take advantage of.

You want to call me a hypocrite? What exactly am I contradicting?

Yoss
05-13-2014, 02:56 PM
@Yoss don't forget the time invested. In your gencon example to get a Portensio of Avon you needed to redeem 5 points (2 wins and a loss or worst case scenario 5 losses.)

For the sake of argument let's value our time at $10/hour and you need 2-4 hours of playing to get your 5 points (I understand there was a lot of waiting in line.) That's $70-90 per Avon, or on average 35 to 45 packs total.

I also think if you polled everyone at gencon on how much they spent to be there, the number would be an order of magnitude larger than $50... The point is to keep an incentive to go to these events.

Point taken, though you can't value liesure time at the level of wage time. A pro playing Hex Drafts and winning every time is still only earning +2 packs for the 100 plat fee and it takes 3 hours to earn it (that's $1-2 per hour more or less). Also, I'm not saying they need to have it perfectly equal. I'm just saying to be in the ballpark. Having to open 1000 packs would be off by at least an order of magnitude. Having to open only 1 would also. The answer is somewhere in between.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 02:57 PM
I go to GenCon, PAX Prime, Blizzcon, PAX East, and E3. And previously any WoWTCG event that I was able to travel to.

What do all these events have in common? Gaming events. I go to them with or without a specific reward. I would be at GenCon even if CZE weren't there. And you better believe, that any convention exclusive or offer that I see and want at any of these, I will take advantage of.

You want to call me a hypocrite? What exactly am I contradicting?



and you want me not to benefit at no expense to you?


You said it pretty clearly yourself, right there. My point is that you go, rewards or not, yet if I suggest that there be no rewards, you flip your lid. Total hypocrite - you want your cake, you want to eat it, and you want to punish everyone else for not being able to attend.

This is why event items suck - because the people that go feel entitled to them, and everyone else just has to suck it up and watch people be rewarded for doing nothing special.

Hatts
05-13-2014, 02:57 PM
Well, look at MTG - they rely on boosters for 90% of their collectible market. The rest are judge promos, or other event promos (that you earn, and don't just get handed as a door prize). I am not completely sure of everything they have given away, but almost everything that has any value is alternate art (usually judge promos) or old cards. I don't see why we need to add so many new types of collectible items that will have worth that rivals a competitive decks price - it makes no sense to add to what can already be a healthy market.


This sounds like an argument against mercenaries and promo's entirely, because they don't need it if I am being generous but the subtext says if I can't have it, no one can.

I'm still not clear on why you think you think these promos need to be easily and cheaply obtainable or not available at all. What's wrong with rare/chasey promos besides the fact that you may not get them all?

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 03:02 PM
This sounds like an argument against mercenaries and promo's entirely, because they don't need it if I am being generous but the subtext says if I can't have it, no one can.

I'm still not clear on why you think you think these promos need to be easily and cheaply obtainable or not available at all. What's wrong with rare/chasey promos besides the fact that you may not get them all?

I dont want these promos to exist at all - I would rather they made something ingame, to get those items ingame, and never hand anything out at the events. But they already set precedence last year - they can't go back and re-write history. The only option left is to make it fair to everyone who can't go.

And I have said it repeatedly - these things alter gameplay. Mercs may not make or break the experience, but it is like giving people a booster set, and then giving people at an event a special hidden card that is total legal, but impossible to get anywhere else. Even if that card is normally completely useless, they have an extra option of gameplay that simply doesn't exist for anyone else. That is why they should be widely available.

Especially since it is a timed event, which already enforces them being rare - any limited time period item is going to be a lot rarer than an infinite period item.

hacky
05-13-2014, 03:04 PM
You said it pretty clearly yourself, right there. My point is that you go, rewards or not, yet if I suggest that there be no rewards, you flip your lid. Total hypocrite - you want your cake, you want to eat it, and you want to punish everyone else for not being able to attend.

This is why event items suck - because the people that go feel entitled to them, and everyone else just has to suck it up and watch people be rewarded for doing nothing special.

Your wording is what I'm flipping out over.

When I can't go to or get something, whether by choice or circumstance, it would be absolutely arrogant of me to go "I hate you all for being able to get/do what I can't".

Look at your language, in bold. Going to events is absolutely special. I love going to events! I would love it if everyone could too! But not everyone can, and I understand that. But downplaying how awesome events are, with or without rewards, is not doing justice to what special events are. They're special.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 03:10 PM
I have been to events - they are special, for the experience. There is absolutely no need to add to that. Any time you spend money to take part in something you like, you are paying for the experience. It is that simple, and obviously everyone has forgotten that since the companies started passing out free stuff.

I mean, when you go to the movie theater, do they let you take home a seat? A DvD of the movie? Anything except the empty boxes of candy and popcorn that you also happened to purchase? No. If you go on vacation, do you get given a bunch of free stuff for stepping into a new country? Nope. You can buy souvenirs, but most of those are for sale in webshops, and aren't exclusive to people visiting that country.

You are absolutely entitled to think you deserve to get free stuff for going somewhere that you enjoy going. It is a special experience, but that doesn't mean you deserve to be rewarded - you aren't a VIP or anything, you didn't earn your way in there, you bought it.

Hatts
05-13-2014, 03:10 PM
I have an alternate proposal for the rarity of con promos coming out of packs - have the same amount available when opening chests as are printed for the con. They can estimate the number of chests being opened over the weekend and adjust the probabilities of the loot table over the con to ensure they hit the right number.

NemesiN
05-13-2014, 03:13 PM
I was unaware of schemes. What modes of play are they legal in? Because if they are only allowed in casual games, or are otherwise banned in legal play, then they don't serve the same prupose as Mercs (who fundamentally change the way a deck works in what will be a very, VERY popular for of legitimate play, even if it isn't competitive.)

Schemes and Planechase cards are not legal in tournaments, no. It is meant for a casual fun format. PvE will also not be competitive and is meant as a casual fun format. Stating that PvE is a legitimate form of play and these forms are not is ignorant and biased. http://static.quoteswave.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-only-time-you-should.png

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 03:15 PM
I have an alternate proposal for the rarity of con promos coming out of packs - have the same amount available when opening chests as are printed for the con. They can estimate the number of chests being opened over the weekend and adjust the probabilities of the loot table over the con to ensure they hit the right number.

How is that any better? Really, thats just horrible. Instead of having people get one for spending enough money, you get one completely at random, like spot prizes? Sorry, but for something that is given out to people walking into the Hex booth, and that convention goers can walk away with multiple copies of, that is unacceptable.

Marsden
05-13-2014, 03:21 PM
PvE will also not be competitive and is meant as a casual fun format.

I think that's wrong to say when who knows what some of the rarer PvE drops will sell for on the AH? If you can get those first because you've got an advantage that can translate into a direct financial gain. Not so casual.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 03:21 PM
Schemes and Planechase cards are not legal in tournaments, no. It is meant for a casual fun format. PvE will also not be competitive and is meant as a casual fun format. Stating that PvE is a legitimate form of play and these forms are not is ignorant and biased. http://static.quoteswave.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-only-time-you-should.png

You do not earn rewards for casual play in MTG. You do in competetive play (thanks to the ranking systems.)

Then you have PvE - it has no ranking systems, but you do earn things by playing. Therefore, limiting peoples options arbitrarily is plain stupid. If one player is able to go through a certain dungeon 3 times an hour thanks to some Mercs and a great strategy, and another player can only do it twice an hour, and they otherwise had the same exact options, then it is horribly unbalanced.

So when there is the potential to earn things, whether it be rankings or currency, and anything else, then it needs to have the same options available to everyone. Even if you need to get it on the AH later, after the event, but it needs to be realistically priced in relation to the time passed since the event. I dont mind if a year one merc is worth prices comparable to Black Lotus in 10 years time, but if it is worth that much within months of the event due to the massive demand, then that is limiting options way too much.

There needs to be reasonable supply of any item that changes gameplay, when rewards are involved.

BossHoss
05-13-2014, 03:27 PM
Xen here is another side to argument also:

- Promos cost money to make
- Promos are handed out for free

If you give a promo to everyone that promo is now worthless. Why pay someone else for something you already get for free.

If you limit the said promos the company can now offset the cost to make. Quick example, player base of 100 000 and 10 000 promos are produced. 90 000 people are now without this promo. Feeding frenzy begins because of how great this new amazing, unbelievable and fun promo has turned out to be. "Market" sets a price of this promo being worth 10000 plat or 50 packs value. In order for even one of the 90 000 people to try this new promo they must purchase $100 in plat or $100 in packs from CZE. Now that even just one person bought that promo they offset their production cost by $100 and can now parle that money towards "rinsing and repeating".

Point being if they remove the exclusivity of the promos they are just paying US to play the game when it needs to be us who pays them to play.

Ultimately I understand your frustration in not easily getting to be the "middle man" that gets to make some money distributing a promo easily, but if becoming that middle man was easy then there will not be a company wanting middle men for very long due to chapter 11 (bankruptcy)

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 03:33 PM
Xen here is another side to argument also:

- Promos cost money to make
- Promos are handed out for free

If you give a promo to everyone that promo is now worthless. Why pay someone else for something you already get for free.

If you limit the said promos the company can now offset the cost to make. Quick example, player base of 100 000 and 10 000 promos are produced. 90 000 people are now without this promo. Feeding frenzy begins because of how great this new amazing, unbelievable and fun promo has turned out to be. "Market" sets a price of this promo being worth 10000 plat or 50 packs value. In order for even one of the 90 000 people to try this new promo they must purchase $100 in plat or $100 in pack from CZE. Now that even just one person bought that promo they offset their production cost by $100 and can now parle that money towards "rinsing and repeating".

Point being if they remove the exclusivity of the promos they are just paying US to play the game when it needs to be us who pays them to play.

Ultimately I understand your frustration in not easily getting to be the "middle man" that gets to make some money distributing a promo easily, but if becoming that middle man was easy then there will not be a company wanting middle men for very long.

First of all, seriously, I thought you were a nice guy, and I apoligise for flying off the handle earlier. I am not in a fit state to be posting, and I am going to bed. In what sense have I ever, even one time, made it seem that I was interested in making a profit off others? I have seriously limited funds and I am still following from Colin's example, and giving away packs that I expect that any other person with only a king tier would be keeping. If I had multiples of any merc like that, chances are I would end up trading it for another merc I didn't have (probably losing out on value, just to spread the mercs around fairly), or I would sell it far below normal AH prices, directly to someone I knew wanted to use it to play. I am honestly shocked that people value the price of these things far more than the experience that people can have with them.

And they could simply not make physical versions of the merc reward if cost was an issue. In fact, your current theory is massively flawed, because every transaction that has taken place for these mercs so far has taken place outside the game, meaning CZE has not seen a single penny. So by your logic, CZE was trying to make a profit off it, and simply paid others money instead. Great logic there.

And even increasing the number of those promos, if they don't have to print them, will not impact the worth by much when you look years into the future, because of the timed nature of the giveaway.

Hatts
05-13-2014, 04:08 PM
How is that any better? Really, thats just horrible. Instead of having people get one for spending enough money, you get one completely at random, like spot prizes? Sorry, but for something that is given out to people walking into the Hex booth, and that convention goers can walk away with multiple copies of, that is unacceptable.

Again, your completely missing the point of promos in your desire to Collect Them All (tm). Promos are handed out to generate interest in Hex. If a convention goer walks away with multiple copies and trades them for plat which they use for packs / tournaments, great! We just got another hex player. This is a good thing, not something that is unacceptable.

Having them be available but chasey during the con (like my proposal) is also great for CZE, this drives opening chests which translates into packs which makes them money to keep the hex train going. As others have mentioned, creating promos costs CZE money, sending people to a con costs money, renting a booth costs money. I don't begrudge CZE recouping some money from it, and I am happy that it creates a strong collectible market.

I have sympathy for those who want to collect them all with limited funds but I don't think it's best for CZE to cater to them.

ossuary
05-13-2014, 04:22 PM
This is an emotionally charged issue for a lot of people, on both sides. It has been since the beginning.

What it comes down to is this: yes, Hex is a digital game. However, it is DEEPLY rooted in its paper TCG past, and that past is very important to Cory and the team. They want to celebrate that wherever they are able to, not throw it all away JUST because it's digital and they don't "have to" anymore.

In Cory's opinion, having a few promotional in-person rewards are good for marketing, hype, rewards for players who make the effort / have the opportunity to go there, etc. They've made concessions so that people who are not physically able to go out for the events still have an opportunity to participate and get some of the rewards with a bit of work/expense... this is a very reasonable compromise.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 04:22 PM
Again, your completely missing the point of promos in your desire to Collect Them All (tm). Promos are handed out to generate interest in Hex. If a convention goer walks away with multiple copies and trades them for plat which they use for packs / tournaments, great! We just got another hex player. This is a good thing, not something that is unacceptable.

Having them be available but chasey during the con (like my proposal) is also great for CZE, this drives opening chests which translates into packs which makes them money to keep the hex train going. As others have mentioned, creating promos costs CZE money, sending people to a con costs money, renting a booth costs money. I don't begrudge CZE recouping some money from it, and I am happy that it creates a strong collectible market.

I have sympathy for those who want to collect them all with limited funds but I don't think it's best for CZE to cater to them.

No, you are the one missing the point. If the item is exclusive to the con, that drives players who already pay, to go to the event, sucking up promos that would have otherwise created interest for new players. And here's the kicker - you can still give them for free, and they can still be promos, without actually being exclusive!

In fact, making them exclusive loses CZE money, because CZE never sees a cent of any backdoor sales, and half the promos go to people who are already paying to play. If they want new players to come in, you make the items attractive, but lower the worth just enough that they actually want to keep and use those items, giving them some incentive to actually stick around, rather than to pawn the codes off to the highest bidder.

So you whole idea of them recouping money off these things falls apart when they actually would end up making less money by restricting them to the point that people have to attend the con to 'complete' their collections.

Having a collectible item is fine, but your whole premise is flawed.

zadies
05-13-2014, 04:30 PM
Actually that completely depends on what if any cut they take off the ah. Also any sales done with in game funds are funds that had to be exchanged through paying cze and since you can't cash out those funds through cze directly cze has made it's money with most of the back door sales.

Hatts
05-13-2014, 04:31 PM
This is an emotionally charged issue for a lot of people, on both sides. It has been since the beginning.

What it comes down to is this: yes, Hex is a digital game. However, it is DEEPLY rooted in its paper TCG past, and that past is very important to Cory and the team. They want to celebrate that wherever they are able to, not throw it all away JUST because it's digital and they don't "have to" anymore.

In Cory's opinion, having a few promotional in-person rewards are good for marketing, hype, rewards for players who make the effort / have the opportunity to go there, etc. They've made concessions so that people who are not physically able to go out for the events still have an opportunity to participate and get some of the rewards with a bit of work/expense... this is a very reasonable compromise.

This. 100x this. Thanks for saying what I was trying to say better than I could Oss.

Hatts
05-13-2014, 04:33 PM
No, you are the one missing the point. If the item is exclusive to the con, that drives players who already pay, to go to the event, sucking up promos that would have otherwise created interest for new players. And here's the kicker - you can still give them for free, and they can still be promos, without actually being exclusive!

If you think everyone who goes to Gencon is already a Hex player, you've probably never been to gencon. Same with any other major con (except for the promised future Hexcon.)

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 04:39 PM
Actually that completely depends on what if any cut they take off the ah. Also any sales done with in game funds are funds that had to be exchanged through paying cze and since you can't cash out those funds through cze directly cze has made it's money with most of the back door sales.

So Ebay uses plat now? How silly of me.


If you think everyone who goes to Gencon is already a Hex player, you've probably never been to gencon. Same with any other major con (except for the promised future Hexcon.)

No, but just look at last year - plenty of backers turned up for gencon and walked out with rewards that could have been used to attract new players. I don't begrudge them this (because obviously some people are going to want to go there regardless of rewards, and if they are they, may as well grab them), but how many codes did they walk off with that could have attracted new, permanent players? Had there already been a guarantee to get the rewards ingame, then I am sure most of them would have given away the code itself, and just kept the cool card. (And to the credit to a lot of fansite owners and streamers, and a fair few forum posters, they have been giving away the codes to gather interest, which was apparently the intended purpose of the promos in the first place.)

Plus, making them more common doesn't take away any options from anyone - later they will still have plenty of value.

hacky
05-13-2014, 05:04 PM
No, but just look at last year - plenty of backers turned up for gencon and walked out with rewards that could have been used to attract new players. I don't begrudge them this (because obviously some people are going to want to go there regardless of rewards, and if they are they, may as well grab them), but how many codes did they walk off with that could have attracted new, permanent players?

This is what makes your argument ridiculous. Attracting new players and attracting dedicated backers are not mutually exclusive.

The codes were used to attract new, permanent players to try Hex. And many new people did. And the vast majority of them had positive experiences.

The codes were also used to attract us already existing backers to come to GenCon and hang out at the CZE area. And we came. And had an awesome time meeting each other and CZE, and trying pre-alpha Hex.

However, combining the two groups together is greater than the sum of their parts. The magic interaction, in fact, requires BOTH groups of players to be present. We backers help CZE teach and promote the game to the new players, further improving the new players' positive experiences. We backers show that there is already a dedicated community there to welcome new players into the fold.

I am specifically addressing you here, Xenavire. You are absolutely incorrect in your assessment of the use promotional cards and mercenaries. They are vital to promoting Hex to a second key audience that your arguments are failing to account for: the tabletop gamer looking for a digital outlet for their TCG experiences. This is what GenCon is for, this is what promotion at GenCon and tabletop conventions are aiming at.

And you know what? Despite you claiming that we are "taking codes that could be benefitting new players", this could not be farther from the truth -- because the truth is that the codes did not run out for the entire GenCon event. Your argument here cannot hold because nothing was taken away from new players.

Xenavire
05-13-2014, 05:19 PM
Way to single out a very minor part of my argument, and then ignore all the positives I listed directly afterwards.

Now, based on the rest of the thread, those existing players would already be attending, so they don't explicitly require rewards for going. So regardless of the number of codes, you would still have that 'magic interaction'. I don't see how this in any way impacts my primary argument - making the items more common doesn't negatively impact the people at the con (barring those only interested in their wallets) and greatly improves the experience of people who couldn't attend.

Not to mention that if CZE has a surplus of physical merchandise, isn't it costing them a lot of money? I absolutely understand wanting to have enough to cover their bases, but how much exactly, did they have left over? It seems like they would be better off using the same method they used for the sleeves (attaching it to an email address.)

I understand the appeal of physical goodies, but it does seem like a waste.

I will admit I may have exaggerated the effect of existing players being there, but it is a two way street - they attract the new players, but they indirectly restrict the amount of players that get a hands-on look. (Not trying to place blame, but not everything is silver lining with your 'magic interaction'.)

Yoss
05-13-2014, 05:20 PM
Schemes and Planechase cards are not legal in tournaments, no. It is meant for a casual fun format. PvE will also not be competitive and is meant as a casual fun format. Stating that PvE is a legitimate form of play and these forms are not is ignorant and biased. http://static.quoteswave.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-only-time-you-should.png

The problem with this comparison is I can't print paper proxies of Hex mercs to play with at my kitchen table like I can for casual MTG.


Xen here is another side to argument also:

- Promos cost money to make
- Promos are handed out for free

If you give a promo to everyone that promo is now worthless. Why pay someone else for something you already get for free.

If you limit the said promos the company can now offset the cost to make. Quick example, player base of 100 000 and 10 000 promos are produced. 90 000 people are now without this promo. Feeding frenzy begins because of how great this new amazing, unbelievable and fun promo has turned out to be. "Market" sets a price of this promo being worth 10000 plat or 50 packs value. In order for even one of the 90 000 people to try this new promo they must purchase $100 in plat or $100 in packs from CZE. Now that even just one person bought that promo they offset their production cost by $100 and can now parle that money towards "rinsing and repeating".

Point being if they remove the exclusivity of the promos they are just paying US to play the game when it needs to be us who pays them to play.

Ultimately I understand your frustration in not easily getting to be the "middle man" that gets to make some money distributing a promo easily, but if becoming that middle man was easy then there will not be a company wanting middle men for very long due to chapter 11 (bankruptcy)

It's important to note that the 100 00p is not consumed in the merc purchase though, it just transfers to another player. It is only consumed when someone pays for a tournament or something at the Store. Therefore, the $100 gained on plat purchase is offset by $100 the other guy (with the merc for sale) didn't have to spend on plat.

hacky
05-13-2014, 05:39 PM
I will admit I may have exaggerated the effect of existing players being there, but it is a two way street - they attract the new players, but they indirectly restrict the amount of players that get a hands-on look. (Not trying to place blame, but not everything is silver lining with your 'magic interaction'.)

And in this case in particular, Hex at GenCon 2013, you would be absolutely wrong.

First off, you are sorely underestimating the Hex backers present, if you think that we are selfish and want our loot at the expense of potential new players. Many times, I and others who demoed repeatedly let other interested new players ahead of us. A small gesture, sure, but in addition...

Cryptozoic themselves knew that many of their biggest backers would be present, and representing their guilds. They knew that these backers, in particular, wanted to get as many things as possible, as they repeatedly queued for demos during the day. But not for themselves... instead, to share with their guild and those who could not come, and CZE wanted to accommodate that. And Cryptozoic also knew that many of us repeatedly playing would make less demo time available, that is obvious. So they did something very awesome that satisfied both wants. (apologies for being intentionally vague here, as I am erring on the side of caution lest people try to take advantage in the future. the honor system was involved)

In many of your posts here, Xenavire, you have made many negative assumptions about your fellow Hex players and our community. Instead of assuming we are all selfish and out for profit, you may need to get to know us far better before you assume anything about us.


And to address "singling out parts" of your post: no amount of fluff changes the exact thing I am talking to you about. If you know that many of us are giving away the codes we got back in GenCon, why are you still then arguing that we are taking away from potential new players? Quoting only the part I want to discuss focuses what I am talking about, for clarity among all who read it.

BossHoss
05-13-2014, 05:40 PM
It's important to note that the 100 00p is not consumed in the merc purchase though, it just transfers to another player. It is only consumed when someone pays for a tournament or something at the Store. Therefore, the $100 gained on plat purchase is offset by $100 the other guy (with the merc for sale) didn't have to spend on plat.

Great point but important aspect is $100 cash flow has been added to the overall net worth of Hex as an identity (minus Dev, employee and redbull costs etc.) in trade for player A to have $100 in "digital goods".

Gwaer
05-13-2014, 06:07 PM
I went to Gencon last year solely for hex exclusives I was told could be gotten no other way. I paid around 600 bucks after it was all said and done to attend and all I did was hex stuff. It was a pretty big drain on my budget that was already nonexistent after the KS. but I went anyway, and stood in line playing hex all day every day open to close.

So it cost me 600 bucks to get those exclusives you're arguing to be able to get for $50. I'd call that pretty serious punishment for people that took CZE at their word for the exclusivity of the items. Yes, it was going to be hard for me to get exclusives from other events I couldn't afford to attend, but I was very much looking forward to hunting them down and trading or buying them.

I have always ways been and still am against the trivialization of people who attend events. Which is pretty much all this thread is doing.

ossuary
05-13-2014, 07:32 PM
Something that maybe people haven't thought about, or maybe just haven't touched on yet (or maybe I didn't see it! this is a long thread :)), is that physical rewards at conventions, FLGS-type exclusives, and other promotional goodies like that are extremely good at building up the HYPE MACHINE. You get a lot of energy when you bring existing players and new, curious potential players together (someone mentioned this piece of it before). The extended benefit of that interaction and increased hype is a potential increase in the player base, and also more money being spent on the product.

That's both smart business and good business. Even for people who come along later and buy those limited time items on the AH, that's generating additional income for CZE as well (in the form of AH fees, which remove platinum from the system, which will eventually be replaced by some player down the line buying more plat). Considering how cheap Hex's prices already are compared to other TCGs out there, we absolutely should not begrudge CZE making a little extra scratch by encouraging collectibility. You want a healthy trade market surrounding the game, so our collections have value, and that value fuels more interest by other collector gamers. It's a very healthy cycle that benefits everyone.

If the exclusives are extremely cheap to get ahold of, there's really no point in having them in the first place, because they won't be worth anything and they won't drive additional traffic in any significant way - it will just be a lot of work CZE put into creating and balancing them, without netting anyone anything of value. That's wasted resources, and if you're seriously arguing for this, you don't really understand how the economics of the digital economy or collector economy work.

If promos are worthless or nearly worthless (i.e. cheap and easy to acquire), but CZE keeps spending money (and time, and resources) producing them, everyone loses, including them. I want Cory's wallet bursting at the seams with all the money we're throwing at him, so he can pour it all back into Hex (and maybe a Porsche, because he deserves it!), and make this mofo even more baller than it already is. :)

Chiany
05-13-2014, 08:48 PM
Crypto should just give every player that is actively participating during the Gen Con time all the promo's, so 1 of each Merc and a playset of the AA's (besides the sleeves), and never give out promo's again at physical events.

As is clearly, it causes to devide the player base, and that is the last thing they want.

EntropyBall
05-13-2014, 08:50 PM
And even increasing the number of those promos, if they don't have to print them, will not impact the worth by much when you look years into the future, because of the timed nature of the giveaway.

This is absolutely false. Basic supply and demand says that increasing the number of them decreases the value. You are going way over the top in this thread. You've made very strong incorrect claims, and then brushed them aside when someone comes in and disproves your point. Basically, doing what you have crucified GatticusFinch for in other threads.

TCGs are not a cheap hobby, doubly so if you have to have every possible collectible in the game. People need to accept that they either are going to spend a LOT of money, or not have everything. If you can't afford to spend that much money (I can't), then that choice is made for you. There is nothing morally wrong with giving these out to convention go-ers, even if those same people resell them on Ebay. Its not "unfair" any more than its unfair that legendaries are some of the best and most expensive cards in the game. Since the con promos don't even affect competitive play, its actually even more "fair" than the actual game.

I don't want to get too deep in the "what makes most financial sense" argument, because its 95% conjecture anyway, but making these a rare drop from chests is going to generate revenue from people wanting to buy/open chests during the event. I think its dumb that its only based on what you open during the Con, rather than packs generated during the con, but whatever, its apparently how they want to do it.

Also, I've never been to a convention, and doubt that I will go in the foreseeable future unless my little girls grow up to be big gamers (here's hoping!).

EntropyBall
05-13-2014, 08:58 PM
Crypto should just give every player that is actively participating during the Gen Con time all the promo's, so 1 of each Merc and a playset of the AA's (besides the sleeves), and never give out promo's again at physical events.

As is clearly, it causes to devide the player base, and that is the last thing they want.

Is this sarcasm? They can't make decisions that will please 100% of the players all the time, so they will always be "dividing" the player base. As other's have pointed out, there are good business reasons for them to give out promos at these events. They can't stop just because a portion of their player base wants to have every possible game item without spending a lot of money. The fact that they even put in an alternate method of acquiring these items is a pretty big concession.

Chiany
05-13-2014, 09:24 PM
Is this sarcasm? They can't make decisions that will please 100% of the players all the time, so they will always be "dividing" the player base. As other's have pointed out, there are good business reasons for them to give out promos at these events. They can't stop just because a portion of their player base wants to have every possible game item without spending a lot of money. The fact that they even put in an alternate method of acquiring these items is a pretty big concession.

I am not against them giving promo's away at conventions.
but those promo's shouldn't have an impact on playing the game.

So no Merc's, AA etc.

but since they already gave some away last year, and the response they got they changed the policy and made it possible for everyone to get those same promo's.
And I like that they did that.

But it all depends on how rare these Mercs are going to be in the chests generated during Gen Con 2014.

Patrigan
05-13-2014, 09:38 PM
Honestly, I think there would be much less a divide if the mercenaries were not on the table. Those really have an original impact on the gameplay in PvE. Remember, PvE is set to attract the non-tcg players, athe gamerfolk. These people don't take well to these kinds of exclusives (just look at the outrage that recently happened regarding some pre-orders for online games). Gaming companies try to be very conscious about making their pre-order bonuses purely cosmetical.

I do have a proposal regarding the mercenaries. I'll post it separately in General Discussion. But in short: Exclusive in time.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35666

Gwaer
05-13-2014, 09:47 PM
The can "get everything" mentality really just needs to be broken, CZE should stop capitulating on this one. Having very valuable rare items that cannot be obtained by the majority of players is key to games economy. There has to be very difficult to obtain, tradable items that people have something to aspire to, to be jealous of, to give them weight, to actually provide value from that desire.

Very few people should end up with everything. I certainly won't have the money to do it. But it's incredibly important that new rare things are coming out regularly, so that new players can have stages of rarity, not every card is the black lotus... but the black lotus is always there to aspire to.

PVE is the perfect place to do that stuff. Mercs now that they are tradable have a real chance of being a serious collectible, if they keep the quantity low enough to be desirable, but high enough to not be mythical in all cases, it's fine in some cases for them to be that rare, but there needs to be a wide gamut.

Everyone needs to get over this idea that you're somehow entitled to get everything just by right of playing, a fantasy that can never come true in a true collectibles market. Or your collectibles are worthless, like statehood quarters.

ZillahEnoch
05-13-2014, 09:48 PM
The thing that seems the most unfair to me is completely unrelated to CZE. The thing that is unfair is that the convention are always held at the same places: mostly in the US with rare exceptions in Europe.
For example, going to Gen-con will always roughly cost someone living in Indiana $50 and Gwaer $600. If they changed places every year, we would be in a lot more "fair" situation. But it won't happen.

I for one applaud the initiative from CZE to offset this unfairness by allowing users that love Hex to get a little something from the convention from home. Of course a somewhat rare occurrence of these promos in packs is key to give them a real value, thus give value to the effort to go there.
However, a crazy ratio like 1/1000 chance to get a promo seems more like a predatory strategy than anything user-inclined. It is basically telling fans to burn through hundreds of packs to try and get a promotional item, without having even a decent chance to get something.
I think someone willing to burn... I don't know 50~150 packs on the game during a weekend/week duration just because of promos should be considered to have shown his interest in the game enough. He should have a fair chance at getting his playset/mercenary.
Even if he doesn't get exactly what he wanted, he should at least get "something", otherwise he would certainly feel cheated.

Living myself in Asia where I have 0 chance of ever seeing a convention and would have to drop $2000 to go to any, I would certainly like it if I was able to get the promos by opening a reasonable amount of packs.

However it would feel more honest to me if CZE did not give anything in packs during the convention than if they created an incentive to buy and open a lot of packs only to be disappointed because of a terrible ratio.

Gwaer
05-13-2014, 09:52 PM
There's likely going to be quite a few unopened chests on the AH that are flagged for whatever weekend you are looking to score promo cards from. There will be plenty of people drafting that have no interest in chests and just throw them on the AH no matter what to score some plat for future drafts. There is a pretty strict limit on what those specialty chests can cost while the event is ongoing. It certainly can't be more than 200plat a piece. I'm not certain that trying to fix it to a certain number of boosters opened is a valid strategy at all. It should be more along the lines of what those chests go for on the AH and how many of them you'd have to open.

ZillahEnoch
05-13-2014, 10:03 PM
I wasn't at all advocating for a fixed number of boosters here, sorry if it came out as such. :)

I was advocating for a reasonable ratio for the promos, something more along the lines of 1/50 (like primals) than 1/1000.

I just feel that saying "You can get the promos in the boosters" and then have very little chance to actually getting them would be somewhat misleading and bad practice towards the consumers.

Patrigan
05-13-2014, 10:10 PM
The can "get everything" mentality really just needs to be broken, CZE should stop capitulating on this one. Having very valuable rare items that cannot be obtained by the majority of players is key to games economy. There has to be very difficult to obtain, tradable items that people have something to aspire to, to be jealous of, to give them weight, to actually provide value from that desire.

Very few people should end up with everything. I certainly won't have the money to do it. But it's incredibly important that new rare things are coming out regularly, so that new players can have stages of rarity, not every card is the black lotus... but the black lotus is always there to aspire to.

PVE is the perfect place to do that stuff. Mercs now that they are tradable have a real chance of being a serious collectible, if they keep the quantity low enough to be desirable, but high enough to not be mythical in all cases, it's fine in some cases for them to be that rare, but there needs to be a wide gamut.

Everyone needs to get over this idea that you're somehow entitled to get everything just by right of playing, a fantasy that can never come true in a true collectibles market. Or your collectibles are worthless, like statehood quarters.

You do realize that this stance will prevent Hex from ever being massively succesful? Most TCGers will keep to their magic and most computer/console gamers will just not touch this game (because everything should be collectible for a gamer).

Champions in LoL are collectible, but I assure you that the game would have a much smaller following if even one of the champions was exclusive or only buyable with real cash.

Gwaer
05-13-2014, 11:10 PM
Champions in lol cannot be traded and sold amongst players. That is not the lol model. A lot of things can be learned from lol, but a collectibles market it is not, and has no bearing on. I very much disagree that having true rarity on items that can be bought and sold will keep the game from going mainstream. I instead believe that it is absolutely vital for a thriving economy through any stage of the game. The issue is all the rarity pooling too high up the chain. You don't want only the super wealthy to have the incredibly rare cards, some amount of random chance is chests is amazing, it's sort of like playing the lottery in many ways, except with a lot more win conditions.

I agree that there should be conventions all over asia, and all over europe, and australia, and wherever else. But even if your area can't support a convention to give you the opportunity to go, you should be able to buy some cheap chests and give it a go, and see if you get lucky.

It's incredibly important that the value of ones collection is increasing as time goes on, if you time-gate champs like in your other thread in general you're actually stealing value from peoples collections. What's the point of having tradable, collectible mercs, when suddenly the source is providing them again, and vastly reducing their value. It's fairly clear that we have incredibly different ideas of what will make Hex great. But I will say I signed up, and dove into Hex for what I was promised, which is true digital digital collections, with freedom to buy/sell/trade very rare items. Every move away from that diminishes was this game can be in my mind.

Miyordon
05-13-2014, 11:28 PM
It's incredibly important that the value of ones collection is increasing as time goes on, if you time-gate champs like in your other thread in general you're actually stealing value from peoples collections. What's the point of having tradable, collectible mercs, when suddenly the source is providing them again, and vastly reducing their value. It's fairly clear that we have incredibly different ideas of what will make Hex great. But I will say I signed up, and dove into Hex for what I was promised, which is true digital digital collections, with freedom to buy/sell/trade very rare items. Every move away from that diminishes was this game can be in my mind.

I had avoided posting here because it is a polarized discussion, but I do like what you said here Gwaer. I am of the same mindset. There should be things that are tough to get, in any collectible game. I will throw as much money as I realistically can at this game, and I do not expect to have everything. Most games have things to chase. I think Cze already did a great thing by making the mercs tradeable. If you are patient, and willing to trade and barter, you can get a "near" complete collection. But then you may have to give up other parts of your collection. TCG

NemesiN
05-13-2014, 11:36 PM
Alternate Art cards do not affect gameplay in the slightest. They are there for collection enthusiasts and that is all. The normal version of the card will be available on the AH and if anything, the release of the AA version of the card will drop the value of the normal version so it is easier to get. MTGO has proven that this is not always the case though.

I have a good quick solution to those of the people that think that everybody should get every Merc. Since PvE is non-competitive and you will never see anybody else's merc unless its in a raid which will be with friends I assume, pretend they don't exist and your gameplay will be unaffected.

ZillahEnoch
05-13-2014, 11:38 PM
I also want to state that while my posts are on the line of "don't make the ratios too harsh, please" I fully agree with Gwaer there.
I don't think our positions are mutually exclusive. A nice balance have to (and surely will) be found :)

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 03:35 AM
I keep wondering why people are so fixated on the mercs having collectible value. I would rather limit the items that are collectible to cards, since it is a TCG. Not every little item needs to have an amazingly high value, nor does it need to retain value indefinitely.

Let the cards be the valuable items, and let mercs (the thing that will likely be the most fun, and the most unbalancing if unevenly spread) be common. Who cares if one of your digital items is worth less? I mean, how would you value your sleeves right now? Because I see them as worthless, but fun. And I think it is important that mercs are the same, by and large.

I mean does it hurt you if someone else can play with something you have? No. But can someone be hurt if they miss out on a play experience? Yes.

DuroNL
05-14-2014, 04:45 AM
GenCon this GenCon that, man, i can't even go there, so im not interested in that at all...

I am how ever interested in knowing if GameForge will be on the Gamescom in Kohln with the same Event rewards as on GenCon?

that would be really great for all us europeans out here ;)

nickon
05-14-2014, 04:51 AM
Sorry Xen, but to me that makes no sense. You seem to be looking at this through PvP glasses. I for instance would just as much want the MMO/PvE side to have some chasey aspects to keep things exciting. And I think mercenaries can be a part of that. What I definitely don't want is for PvE to be a dull playground to farm some gold, I want things to chase after there as well. And it'll be much more fun if those things aren't just cards.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 05:17 AM
Sorry Xen, but to me that makes no sense. You seem to be looking at this through PvP glasses. I for instance would just as much want the MMO/PvE side to have some chasey aspects to keep things exciting. And I think mercenaries can be a part of that. What I definitely don't want is for PvE to be a dull playground to farm some gold, I want things to chase after there as well. And it'll be much more fun if those things aren't just cards.

I am absolutely not looking at this through 'PvP glasses'. I will be playing plenty of PvE, and it is already going to have plenty of chase items (ranging from cards to equipment.)

It doesn't need to have mercs that are near-impossible to get. For something labelled as free to play, there are going to be numerous things worth a bunch of plat. I already think thats a little off, why add to it?

ossuary
05-14-2014, 05:22 AM
Xen: go back and read my two posts in this thread. Set aside your preconceptions and just try to think about what I'm saying. You're not looking at this issue rationally (understandable... as I said, it's an emotionally charged issue). But you're acting like a troll in this thread, ignoring points people make to you, making outlandish claims that are patently false, then further ignoring people when they point this out to you.

I think you need to take a break from this thread. Or at least take a step back and TRY to look at it from the other side objectively. With all due respect. :)

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 05:30 AM
Xen: go back and read my two posts in this thread. Set aside your preconceptions and just try to think about what I'm saying. You're not looking at this issue rationally (understandable... as I said, it's an emotionally charged issue). But you're acting like a troll in this thread, ignoring points people make to you, making outlandish claims that are patently false, then further ignoring people when they point this out to you.

I think you need to take a break from this thread. Or at least take a step back and TRY to look at it from the other side objectively. With all due respect. :)

Sorry Oss, I know I am not in a fit state to be posting, but I haven't had a single clear answer to my main points.

First: why do mercs need to be collectible in the first place? I haven't seen any good answers to this, ever, even during the kickstarter. They affect gameplay, and the logical thing to do would be to give everyone the same chance to own them.

And second: why do people need to be given promos at cons? I still don't get this. Even a free wristband that is literally worth nothing is enough to get people lining up to try something new. I just hate the practice, and all I have heard is entitled whining in response to my complaints.

If people could actually answer those questions with something rational, and not 'but my money', then I would be a lot more likely to stop posting.

ossuary
05-14-2014, 05:52 AM
Okay, let's do this one more time.


First: why do mercs need to be collectible in the first place? I haven't seen any good answers to this, ever, even during the kickstarter. They affect gameplay, and the logical thing to do would be to give everyone the same chance to own them.

The heart of a TCG is collectibility. Collect cards, collect PVE equipment, collect mercs... it's all the same itch getting scratched. Some people collect for money, some people collect for the power, some people collect just for the thrill of the chase. The why doesn't really matter, the point is that a good TCG drives people to seek out the hard to acquire... and there has to BE hard to acquire items (cards, mercs, equipment, craftables, whatever), or the chase isn't worth the effort. Cory wants mercenaries to be part of this - that's the ultimate reason.

The point you have to remember is that while everyone has a CHANCE to acquire these items, not everyone actually WILL acquire them. That's how it has to work. That is the very nature of scarcity. If everyone could get them, they wouldn't be worth the trouble. The collector will not gain any money for acquiring them. The thrillseeker will find the hunt unsatisfying due to lack of challenge. Even the power seeker will be unsatisfied, because if anyone can get it for no effort, it doesn't put them ahead any. And it will not be good for CZE either, because they will have spent time, money, and effort to develop these items that now nobody gains anything from acquiring... resources they could have spent on something that would benefit everyone.

The scarcity is a necessary part of the equation for all concerned - this is a factor that you still refuse to accept or address.



And second: why do people need to be given promos at cons? I still don't get this. Even a free wristband that is literally worth nothing is enough to get people lining up to try something new. I just hate the practice, and all I have heard is entitled whining in response to my complaints.

Hype, and scarcity. This goes right back to the previous point. There are going to be a number of ways to have scarcity and hype for the game, and they all scratch that itch that TCG players have. Some exclusives will come in the form of time-limited pre-release rewards that you can only get if you're actively playing when it happens. Some exclusives will come in the form of rare prizes for winning big tournaments. Others will come from beating extremely difficult challenges in the PVE experience, that only the best or most cunning players will be able to conquer. And some will come from location-based exclusivity, at big conventions, people attending big Hex tournaments in person, FLGS-type exclusive rewards, etc.

No player NEEDS all of these items in order to function, but they are there to seek and chase after, because it drives traffic, interest, grows the audience, and rewards the people who persevere over the odds to acquire them (either because they get the rare item themselves, or because they can profit from it if they don't actually want to own it themselves). And all players have the CHANCE to get them, either by putting in the work themselves, or paying the money to get them if they don't have the time to invest.

Exclusive items are a storied part of the history of TCGs. Cory wants to continue that tradition, and make good use of them to fuel player desire, and power the hype machine to help get new people interested in the game, for whatever part of TCGs scratch their person itch - be it the skill of the game, the thrill of the hunt, or the desire to profit from acquiring the rarest of the rare items.

It all interconnects, and Cory understands this. He's a smart man. You should trust him. :)

Now stop trying to kill the value of exclusives. :p

mudkip
05-14-2014, 06:26 AM
The heart of a TCG is collectibility...
I agree with this, but also want to add mobility in terms of trading. One of the most exciting parts of CZE's vision of Hex is the whole sandbox approach where you can trade anything and do anything with what you own.

The exception is when it comes to superficial things like badges, achievements, sleeves etc. I think those being a permanent brand on the user would be best.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 06:27 AM
Thats not good enough, Oss. First, there already tons of rare items, plenty to chase. It makes no sense to have gameplay altering items be so rare.

Second, you can build hype in other ways, and in a collectible game, scarcity is built in. You don't need to add to that. I am adressing that point the same way I have the whole time - we already have collectible items. We don't need more.

Lastly, I am not trying to kill the value of exclusives, I am trying to limit exclusives to cosmetics, which is all that an exclusive should ever be.

And don't forget, Oss, Cory has been wrong before, especially about mercs. I trust him, but I can still think he is wrong.

EntropyBall
05-14-2014, 06:45 AM
First: why do mercs need to be collectible in the first place? I haven't seen any good answers to this, ever, even during the kickstarter. They affect gameplay, and the logical thing to do would be to give everyone the same chance to own them.

And second: why do people need to be given promos at cons? I still don't get this. Even a free wristband that is literally worth nothing is enough to get people lining up to try something new. I just hate the practice, and all I have heard is entitled whining in response to my complaints.

If people could actually answer those questions with something rational, and not 'but my money', then I would be a lot more likely to stop posting.

First: Oss handled this pretty well, but if the "logical thing to do for things that affect gameplay is to give everyone the same chance to own them", then the whole game will be free. Otherwise, people with more money have a greater chance of owning any given PVP card. You basically just said that collectibles and rarity shouldn't exist in a game.
Look at the equipment that comes out of chests, for example. When people first started opening them they were excited to get a new piece of equipment. Now they are finding out how common some of that stuff is and are less excited about getting it. Not just less excited about getting a 10th piece, but less excited about finding the 1st, since they know everyone will have it.

Second: I have never run game a company, but don't you think that maybe there is something to the value of promos at cons if just about everyone does it? The fact that you "hate the practice" doesn't change its value to the companies putting on the con. They aren't doing it just to spite you. Its also pretty rich for you to categorize ALL of the opposing viewpoints in this thread as "entitled whining."

Lastly, there are going to be TONS of Mercs. For all we know it could take a long time to level them and be unfeasible to max out every Merc. Missing out on a couple of them is not going to ruin the game for people. If there is one you find amazingly interesting and just HAVE to have, it will be available on the AH. Even if I agreed with you that everyone should have the same chance to own them, some of them are already unobtainable by anyone who missed the KS (aside from buying on the AH), so the boat has already sailed on that. The KS-exclusive bonuses are far more "unfair" than the current plans for convention promos.

ossuary
05-14-2014, 06:47 AM
Thats not good enough, Oss.

Not good enough FOR YOU. Key difference.


And don't forget, Oss, Cory has been wrong before, especially about mercs. I trust him, but I can still think he is wrong.

Some people say wrong... I say backed down when he shouldn't have. :p

I was fine with Chest 'o Hex being exclusive to people who bought the t-shirts. I was fine with the con exclusives ONLY being available in person. Cory rolled over on those, and you know what? Making a vocal subsection of the community happy is all well and good, but caving to loud demands also sets a bad precedent that will lead to more and more complaining and demands in the future... that's a slippery slope.

Making the mercenaries tradeable was actually a very savvy business decision that also happened to make people happy; I'm cool with that one. It helps both the collector and the rare-chaser in me. :)

mudkip
05-14-2014, 06:57 AM
a vocal subsection of the community
That's just specious. You're a vocal subsection of the community, does that mean we should ignore you?

I feel like with this phrase you're trying to say that Xen is representing a minority? The people against this are the international crowd who are unable to support a trip to the US for a con, and don't want to have an in-game disadvantage because of this. If you or CZE ignore that crowd, you are making a huge mistake.

... that's a slippery slope.
In before "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie!"

But seriously this is bullshit. I agree CZE shouldn't pander, but making a decision that coincides with public opinion is not a bad move.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 07:01 AM
There is a huge difference between buying packs and going to cons. Don't even try to suggest that they are equal, because anyone has the chance to buy packs without leaving the house. And the WoF rolls are odd, and it seems like some rarities have been jumbled up. But a bunch of people have been posting rolls, and so many of those items are very rare.

On your second point, just because something is common practice, doesn't mean it is good or right. And there are plenty of other options, without making something as important as mercs exclusive.

And it doesn't matter if there will be tons of different mercs if there is one you cannot get for some reason, and you want to use it. Not everything will be on the AH, and some will on there for insane prices.

And I have already said I have no problem with them giving AA versions of any current exclusives (to please both sides. I could live with those mercs just being available to everyone.)

mudkip
05-14-2014, 07:05 AM
AA would be a very fair option.

ossuary
05-14-2014, 07:09 AM
The thing you are still failing to understand is that mercenaries represent the LARGEST amount of development work of any exclusive item we've seen to date. Whole decks will be built around the mercenaries, and their impact on the PVE experience has to be carefully designed and balanced out. Alternate art and sleeves are just a piece of artwork - no additional work required. The mercenaries, on the other hand, will require a great deal of labor by multiple departments to create them.

If they then just turn around and hand them out to everyone off the street, the mercenaries will be WORTHLESS, and all that effort CZE put in to create them will be essentially wasted. To justify and validate the time and energy spent creating them, the mercenaries NEED to have value. They need to serve a larger purpose than just being a cool dude you play around with. They need to be something worth seeking out, and something (to one level or another) difficult to obtain. The value people place in them, fueled in part by their necessary scarcity, ensures a return on investment for CZE's time and effort.

If you really want to have cheap, easy, worthless "collectibles," stick to sleeves and AA, which cost nearly nothing to produce. Mercenaries cost more, so they need to be worth more.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 07:12 AM
Not good enough FOR YOU. Key difference.

I am not alone in my concerns. But I have seen this done in many games, and those exclusive items generate constant ill-will when they have an impact in gameplay. Look at a bunch of the cross-console games like Assasins creed - people on Xbox hate that PS3 get special extra content. And that complaint is true in so many situations.





Some people say wrong... I say backed down when he shouldn't have. :p

I was fine with Chest 'o Hex being exclusive to people who bought the t-shirts. I was fine with the con exclusives ONLY being available in person. Cory rolled over on those, and you know what? Making a vocal subsection of the community happy is all well and good, but caving to loud demands also sets a bad precedent that will lead to more and more complaining and demands in the future... that's a slippery slope.

Making the mercenaries tradeable was actually a very savvy business decision that also happened to make people happy; I'm cool with that one. It helps both the collector and the rare-chaser in me. :)

I was fine with the shirts when it seemed like they were available to everyone. I never expected to be locked out of the purchase, and when I was, I was thankful that the decision was made to make them free for all backers. I managed to get the shirt recently from someone who bought in bulk, but I could have easily missed out permanently. And that would not have been fair.

I was shocked and unhappy to hear about the mercs being exclusive at gencon. I think giving people the chance to get them was the best move, I am only concerned now about how rare they will be.

And as long as the policy for overturning things explicitly excludes cosmetic items, I don't care how slippery the slope is. Game changing items should be fairly available
available. Cosmetics can be as exclusive as they want.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 07:15 AM
The thing you are still failing to understand is that mercenaries represent the LARGEST amount of development work of any exclusive item we've seen to date. Whole decks will be built around the mercenaries, and their impact on the PVE experience has to be carefully designed and balanced out. Alternate art and sleeves are just a piece of artwork - no additional work required. The mercenaries, on the other hand, will require a great deal of labor by multiple departments to create them.

If they then just turn around and hand them out to everyone off the street, the mercenaries will be WORTHLESS, and all that effort CZE put in to create them will be essentially wasted. To justify and validate the time and energy spent creating them, the mercenaries NEED to have value. They need to serve a larger purpose than just being a cool dude you play around with. They need to be something worth seeking out, and something (to one level or another) difficult to obtain. The value people place in them, fueled in part by their necessary scarcity, ensures a return on investment for CZE's time and effort.

If you really want to have cheap, easy, worthless "collectibles," stick to sleeves and AA, which cost nearly nothing to produce. Mercenaries cost more, so they need to be worth more.

I am surprised at you, Oss. Really. They are making PvE, an entire, massive, non-PvP gameplay experience, and they aren't charging for it. Mercs require a lot less work, and a bunch are already going to be free in-game.

They obviously don't need value. Otherwise the PvE would be a subscription, not free.

Thrawn
05-14-2014, 07:19 AM
The thing you are still failing to understand is that mercenaries represent the LARGEST amount of development work of any exclusive item we've seen to date. Whole decks will be built around the mercenaries, and their impact on the PVE experience has to be carefully designed and balanced out.

Why? It's PvE, make them broken, make them over powered and it just makes them fun to use. You can do crazy strong combos that you couldn't explore in PvP because all you're doing is beating on an AI.

ossuary
05-14-2014, 07:22 AM
Look at a bunch of the cross-console games like Assasins creed - people on Xbox hate that PS3 get special extra content. And that complaint is true in so many situations.

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous argument. The mercenaries are freely tradeable and sellable. You can't go onto PSN and find an XBOX 360 player selling their used Assassin's Creed DLC, so this analogy has no merit on this conversation.

mudkip
05-14-2014, 07:23 AM
Mercs would require less effort than a common card to design! Mercs are PvE, they can be nerfed on the fly if the design is bad. Besides I believe the meta is more defined by cards than Mercs.

I also don't see how not letting players use a Merc somehow means they should be spending more time on it. That seems counter-intuitive to me. This is the same reason Blizzard made raids so casual friendly and having revisits in the later expansions - most players didn't get to experience the content the developers worked so hard on because it was gated so hard.

Pezzle
05-14-2014, 07:25 AM
No account will have 100% of the collectables. Cryptozoic will use the collectable nature of some non-competitive exclusives to draw new and old customers to physical locations. Neither one of those is the end of the universe or a death knell for this game. You do not have to be thrilled about it, but 13 pages?

ossuary
05-14-2014, 07:26 AM
Why? It's PvE, make them broken, make them over powered and it just makes them fun to use. You can do crazy strong combos that you couldn't explore in PvP because all you're doing is beating on an AI.

This is another foolish concept. Just because it's free, doesn't mean it is okay to be stupidly broken. Balance work still has to be done, to make sure players can't breeze through high-end content and farm other valuable items (further destabilizing the economy and flooding the market).

It keeps coming back to value. You guys just don't seem to understand that there NEED to be valuable, hard to acquire, expensive items in the game in order for the economy and the collectibility to function. If there aren't, the game will have a MUCH smaller audience and we'll all be dumping money into a pit that we can never get back. Ultimately, the game will fail.

I have seen this before. TCGs that fail to properly capture the correct level of collectibility end up crashing and burning, no matter how good the mechanics or gameplay are, because they cannot retain enough players to sustain themselves. Having a diverse selection of rare and collectible items helps to capture multiple different types of collectors / chasers. It's good design, plain and simple.

mudkip
05-14-2014, 07:29 AM
No account will have 100% of the collectables. Cryptozoic will use the collectable nature of some non-competitive exclusives to draw new and old customers to physical locations. Neither one of those is the end of the universe or a death knell for this game. You do not have to be thrilled about it, but 13 pages?

Welcome to the internet ;)

It's less about collectables and more about in-game power. If this was just a superficial thing like AA cards or sleeves, it wouldn't be an issue. I don't expect to have 100%, but competing against someone who has an unfair advantage is not fun.


It keeps coming back to value.

This is the impression I read from your previous post, and I'm guessing it's a philosophy that I and many others disagree with.

I'm not talking about value, I'm talking about fun. There is already innate value due to card rarity, but it's fair. Having the rarity based on your location in the world is not fair and is not fun.

mudkip
05-14-2014, 07:32 AM
Double post. Seriously, why is there no delete button?

Pezzle
05-14-2014, 07:39 AM
Mercs are PvE. There is no unfair advantage.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 07:42 AM
Mercs are PvE. There is no unfair advantage.

Not true, and if you don't understand this, don't post.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 07:45 AM
I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous argument. The mercenaries are freely tradeable and sellable. You can't go onto PSN and find an XBOX 360 player selling their used Assassin's Creed DLC, so this analogy has no merit on this conversation.

Well, it has more merit than you might admit, because even with trading, you are by no means gauranteed to get what you want. At least with consoles, you always have the option to go play that content in many different ways.

And even with those options there, it doesn't magically make it fair.

Grendelkr1
05-14-2014, 07:47 AM
I'm fairly new to TCGMMO's... In fact I have yet to play one, but I'm having some trouble understanding how any of this actually alters anyone's playabilty of this game. Like Gwaer I too was at Gen Con last year and can attest that there was a lot more involved to getting any goodies then showing up with $50 and saying give me. It would take multiple days of grinding through game after game to get everything that was offered there. And what was offered last year? 2 mercs one of which you couldn't get a duplicate of, 1 alternate art card, and a set of sleeves.

I think at this point most people have said there aren't to worried about the sleeves and Cory has said that he wants them to be exclusive to people that played there that weekend... Makes sense to me.
1 AA card which I believe are all mostly Common or Uncommon in rarity. This adds nothing to your game play other than a little bit of flair. The point had been made that it could be considered a game changer because you might not have four of this card yet. If you weren't able to get a set of four of the regular version... why would you presume you should be able to get a full set of the AA version?
The two Mercs only usable in PVE. How does some one you don't know using a merc you don't have affect the way you play the game? Unless you are in a raid with someone using it help you in your quest it's existence would never impact your gaming experience.

With all of that said of the 4 items 1) the sleeves that won't be in chest 2) An AA card that you may or may not already have four basic copies of 3) A Merc that was restricted in number to the people that actually did attend the event in question ( I'm going to call this a legendary rarity for the sake of this argument) 4) A Merc that was obtainable multiple times with hours of dedication to waiting in cue's and ignoring an entire con going on around you( going to call him an Uncommon possibly a Rare) ... Which of those items do you feel should be so common as to get on in every 5 or so packs?

I went to the convention and I did not come home with everything ( including a set of 4 AA cards). I'm all for having a chance to get any of these items in a chest. I think everyone should have the chance to get something to commemorate this and any event, but to have the expectation of getting everything is completely unreasonable to me.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 07:50 AM
I'm fairly new to TCGMMO's... In fact I have yet to play one, but I'm having some trouble understanding how any of this actually alters anyone's playabilty of this game. Like Gwaer I too was at Gen Con last year and can attest that there was a lot more involved to getting any goodies then showing up with $50 and saying give me. It would take multiple days of grinding through game after game to get everything that was offered there. And what was offered last year? 2 mercs one of which you couldn't get a duplicate of, 1 alternate art card, and a set of sleeves.

I think at this point most people have said there aren't to worried about the sleeves and Cory has said that he wants them to be exclusive to people that played there that weekend... Makes sense to me.
1 AA card which I believe are all mostly Common or Uncommon in rarity. This adds nothing to your game play other than a little bit of flair. The point had been made that it could be considered a game changer because you might not have four of this card yet. If you weren't able to get a set of four of the regular version... why would you presume you should be able to get a full set of the AA version?
The two Mercs only usable in PVE. How does some one you don't know using a merc you don't have affect the way you play the game? Unless you are in a raid with someone using it help you in your quest it's existence would never impact your gaming experience.

With all of that said of the 4 items 1) the sleeves that won't be in chest 2) An AA card that you may or may not already have four basic copies of 3) A Merc that was restricted in number to the people that actually did attend the event in question ( I'm going to call this a legendary rarity for the sake of this argument) 4) A Merc that was obtainable multiple times with hours of dedication to waiting in cue's and ignoring an entire con going on around you( going to call him an Uncommon possibly a Rare) ... Which of those items do you feel should be so common as to get on in every 5 or so packs?

I went to the convention and I did not come home with everything ( including a set of 4 AA cards). I'm all for having a chance to get any of these items in a chest. I think everyone should have the chance to get something to commemorate this and any event, but to have the expectation of getting everything is completely unreasonable to me.

This is much more reasonable. And if someone puts in that time, effort, and money, the same as the people who went to the con (or even more, which is likely) they should have a good shot of getting what they want, right? Barring the sleeves of course.

Pezzle
05-14-2014, 07:56 AM
It is true
also
you are not a beautiful and unique snowflake and there is no Santa Claus.

Get over it.

Pheelon
05-14-2014, 08:02 AM
honestly - what is then big issue with some mercs being harder to get?

Unless it has changed you won't be able to get all PvE Mercs through normal gameplay either (Factions alignment issues etc...)
So why care that you most probably can't get another merc either?

And no - Cory only stated that Code,KS based Mercs and Mercs from chests/WoT will be tradeable not story based.

Pezzle
05-14-2014, 08:04 AM
Because some people want it all, even when they are told they cannot have it.

ossuary
05-14-2014, 08:08 AM
This is the impression I read from your previous post, and I'm guessing it's a philosophy that I and many others disagree with.

I'm not talking about value, I'm talking about fun. There is already innate value due to card rarity, but it's fair. Having the rarity based on your location in the world is not fair and is not fun.

You can feel free to disagree with the philosophy all you want... that's the beauty (and curse) of free will. :)

Whether or not you agree with it, the fact remains that if a TCG does not have value, it will die. Cory obviously thinks mercenaries will help with this, or he would just toss them around to everyone like candy.

Also, the rarity is NOT based on your location, because anyone who is able to connect to the internet during the convention can open packs or play in tournaments and have a chance to get the exclusives there. Or go to the AH afterwards and buy it from someone. That is a much more even playing field.

You say not being able to get a specific item you want in the way you want is not fun... okay, that's your opinion. *I* say that having to chase for something IS fun. Obviously we will never agree on this point or change each others' opinion on it, because it comes down to a personal feeling. So there's no point continuing to argue over that particular point.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 08:09 AM
honestly - what is then big issue with some mercs being harder to get?

Unless it has changed you won't be able to get all PvE Mercs through normal gameplay either (Factions alignment issues etc...)
So why care that you most probably can't get another merc eith?

And no - Cory only stated that Code,KS based Mercs and Mercs from chests/WoT will be tradeable not story based.

The way I understand the faction based mercs is that they are essentially copies of each other (basically AA.) I never saw anything official saying that they were different, except in looks.

Pezzle, go away and think about it. If one person can farm a dungeon faster because of a merc, they have an advantage. And that advantage can translate into other advantages. You can't just say "PvE, who gives a shit", because PvE is a huge selling point, and if it flops because of crap like that, it can pull the whole game with it.

Pezzle
05-14-2014, 08:16 AM
By that logic, Cryptozoic should limit the amount of time each player can connect each day/week/arbitrary timeframe so as to not give someone an unfair advantage. And why stop there? Is it fair that you got a better card for defeating the boss than I did?

There are no winners down that road.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 08:21 AM
By that logic, Cryptozoic should limit the amount of time each player can connect each day/week/arbitrary timeframe so as to not give someone an unfair advantage. And why stop there? Is it fair that you got a better card for defeating the boss than I did?

There are no winners down that road.

That is completely missing the point. If two people spend identical amounts of time farming items, and one of those people has a specific merc that makes them able to get through that dungeon twice as fast, that isn't fair. Now assuming that merc is event exclusive, and that is the only reason player 2 couldn't do the exact same thing, then the system is unfair.

TJTaylor
05-14-2014, 08:26 AM
I disagree with the premise that mercenaries need to have monetary value. They are for F2P PvE content for pete's sake.

Plus it isn't like these are pets or cosmetic mounts that we are talking about. Mercenaries will completely alter the play experience. They will impact how people deck build and what strategies they will employ in raids. Some mercs may even become "mandatory" for certain raids once theorycrafters work out the most efficient ways to do things.

Making some of these mercenaries limited quantity due to being event rewards could result in future players getting locked out of some play content eventually. The supply of those mercenaries will dry up at some point. That's not going to help retain players.

Looking at it objectively, I don't think it is wise to do this on the PvE side of HEX. The PvP side is exactly where this kind of stuff belongs as exclusive/limited supply stuff has always been a part of TCGs. But MMO players, especially F2P players, are not going to like the idea of never being able to play with a particular mercenary because they didn't play the game at the time it was available or couldn't afford a plane ticket half way across the world. It would be like Blizzard releasing a new class that could only be unlocked if you go to that year's Blizzcon or buy some lottery tickets during a single 3 day window of opportunity for a random chance to hit the jackpot and unlock. That would be pretty crazy, in my opinion.

CZE needs to be very careful not to alienate the MMO players they are interested in attracting to HEX.

That said. If these limited edition mercenaries remain a part of HEX, I will personally be fine with it but I would question whether or not HEX would ever be more than just a niche game for dedicated TCGers. Not that there is anything wrong with that but I'm not sure that is what CZE has in mind.

ossuary
05-14-2014, 08:26 AM
That is completely missing the point. If two people spend identical amounts of time farming items, and one of those people has a specific merc that makes them able to get through that dungeon twice as fast, that isn't fair. Now assuming that merc is event exclusive, and that is the only reason player 2 couldn't do the exact same thing, then the system is unfair.

No, he's not missing the point. You keep saying you want everyone to have everything and for everyone to be on equal footing... but that is impossible. There will always be people with more money, more time, or who live closer to in-person events. It cannot, and should not, be completely even. You keep fundamentally failing to understand that.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 08:38 AM
Wrong Oss - I want to have everyone to have the same chance to get things. And that chance should be even, always.

From your standpoint, CZE could introduce a VIP plus program, available for $50, only in the US, that doubles the chance of primals and gives those subscribers free legendaries every month. Because of course, anyone could move to the US and fork over the money if that wanted that treatment.

CZE should be (and might I point out, has been) aiming for equality and fairness wherever possible. This particular subject is currently a hot topic for that very reason - people want to be equal.

BossHoss
05-14-2014, 08:49 AM
Exclusivity is necessary within this business model for such a large "F2P" experience to happen.

What exclusivity does is create an exponential income into the game at a price controlled by the market as opposed to being a set price by CZE. We already know CZE has set income creators in draft ($7), packs ($2), etc. What exclusivity does is create a CZE "investment" into their own game.

Example:
Let's look at Hex being brand new. No players, no cards in any collections. Completely clean slate.
Player A goes to a convention and gets a promo which cost CZE $100 to develop. This player now starts to play hex, loves it and tells a friend.
Player B wants the experience Player A had so pays $10 for that promo. Player A now buys $10 in packs which cost CZE $1000 to develop. Player B loves the game and tells 2 more friends. They both want the same experience. Cue bidding war.
Player C wins the war at $15, Player D disgusted at the price to play leaves and Player B spends $15 on packs.
Rinse and repeat, that "exclusive" promo is now a commodity that has its own inflation rate set by the market bringing in cash flow to CZE priced at what people WANT to pay and not what CZE says to pay. This one promo that was "free" is now floating through the game adding cash flow to the economy that is being created.
This all continues to happen on various levels through the example. Rewind to player A...
Player A opens their 5 packs, notices a legendary card (rarities are another example of varying exclusivity) that combos well with that promo and now wants it back. Player A buys the promo back for $18, plays, combo gets noticed and sells the promo and legendary for $30.
Summary:
$78 cash flow in current market
15 packs currently in existence

This promo has essentially netted CZE $5.20 for each pack sold...

Now same example but give EVERYBODY that same promo when signing up
Summary :
Player A does not introduce $10 of player B's money into the economy.
Player B does not introduce a bidding war resulting in $15 of player C's money
Player D is no longer disgusted and also gets to play for free
Player A introduces $10 of their own money for 5 packs into the economy and finds the combo
Player C does not introduce $18 of player A's money into the economy to buy back the promo
Player A does not introduce $30 into the economy for the combo but sells the legendary for $10

Now this promo has netted CZE $0 (packs were bought at face value) BUT has netted the player base 1 more player than previous example. So this example has a value in its own right basically transferring the "exclusivity" onto what kind of value does player D have to the game.

Yada, yada, yada and this is how exclusivity works compared to "fairness". Example 1 may exclude the occasional person in disagreement with feeling "walled" from an experience others are enjoying but the company now is creating cash flow to continue to produce that content. The game WILL survive. Example 2 is "fair" and is growing the player base BUT is only bringing in money at face value. Therefore the content production is slowed and risks losing the player base due to boredom in the long run anyway.

Point is exclusivity is a fine line in growing the player base but creating surplus income on the risk that the hype of the exclusive will create a value in itself.

Pezzle
05-14-2014, 09:14 AM
It is not missing the point at all. Time is a resource, money is a resource. That is what it all boils down to.

Cryptozoic is going to use some of those AA cards and Mercs as a draw for physical attendance. You might be able to get the same rewards from marked chests.

Accept it and move on.

Vorpal
05-14-2014, 09:31 AM
Sorry Oss, I know I am not in a fit state to be posting, but I haven't had a single clear answer to my main points.

First: why do mercs need to be collectible in the first place? I haven't seen any good answers to this, ever, even during the kickstarter. They affect gameplay, and the logical thing to do would be to give everyone the same chance to own them.

I want CZE to just come out and say "you will never be able to own all mercenaries on the same account" so people will stop feeling like their game is ruined if there are any they can't get :D

Weren't we told there would be mutually exclusive pve mercs? IE you choose to help the badgers, get a badger merc, but then you can't get the mushroom merc, because now he hates you. I think having meaningful choices like this is good.

If everyone has the exact same merc collection, that is super duper boring. I'd rather have lots of odd ball mercs that require you to have made some difficult choices and pass up other mercs so you feel your choices actually meant something.

That said...as long as the stuff from cons that affects gameplay is tradeable, I don't see a concern. Attend the con if you can. If you can't, buy the stuff on ebay. If you can't afford it, well, it's no different than if it was released in packs but at a rarity high enough that you couldn't afford it. And from what we hear these things will be released in packs anyway so...what are we unhappy about?

mudkip
05-14-2014, 09:35 AM
Whether or not you agree with it, the fact remains that if a TCG does not have value, it will die. Cory obviously thinks mercenaries will help with this, or he would just toss them around to everyone like candy.
I disagree, I think it will live or die on if it's fun. I do think the value and the chase affect the fun, and that's why it's important to find a balance.

As an extreme hypothetical, I could make a TCG which is printed on solid gold cards. I doubt people would play it just because there's high value.


Also, the rarity is NOT based on your location, because anyone who is able to connect to the internet during the convention can open packs or play in tournaments and have a chance to get the exclusives there. Or go to the AH afterwards and buy it from someone. That is a much more even playing field.
This is true, but I question the supply on the AH. The chance of someone getting it is still increased by being closer to the location, you can't dispute that.


You say not being able to get a specific item you want in the way you want is not fun... okay, that's your opinion. *I* say that having to chase for something IS fun. Obviously we will never agree on this point or change each others' opinion on it, because it comes down to a personal feeling. So there's no point continuing to argue over that particular point.
Yeah that's the thing, you and I have different end goals. The reason I'm discussing it is to understand your side better.


CZE should be (and might I point out, has been) aiming for equality and fairness wherever possible. This particular subject is currently a hot topic for that very reason - people want to be equal.

This is how I feel, specifically for discrimination on location. Discriminating on time, money and skill is expected with a TCG, but charging people more time and money just because they're in a different location is bullshit.

For me, one of the big draws to Hex was that it was a TCG independent on location. I grew up in a small country town and always wanted to get into things like Magic and other TCGs but there was noone around to play with. I felt like a purely digital TCG would be the answer to that problem. This is also part of the reason my heart broke a bit when HexCon was announced. I know HexCon is self indulgent and will be useful for eSports tournaments, but it still spits in that face of the dream for a TCG in the clouds.


Exclusivity is necessary within this business model for such a large "F2P" experience to happen.

No one is arguing exclusivity. What is being argued is that the chance to get exclusive content is not gated depending on where you are on the planet.

Your example falls apart as no one is suggesting that EVERYONE gets the promo card, just that the people who are able to visit the Con aren't getting extremely improved odds.

mudkip
05-14-2014, 09:46 AM
edit: dp again

Patrigan
05-14-2014, 10:17 AM
Sorry Oss, but some of your remarks really don't hold together.

If anything, this game will die BECAUSE of the chase. Computer gamers don't chase outside their game. They simply dislike that. This is a standing fact. Just recently there was again some uproar regarding the pre-order scheme that some prominent game had set up. (Exclusive here, exclusive there, depending on where you preorder and no chance to have both). Many players have already stated that ebcause of this, they will simply NOT get the game. It wasn't even a multiplayer, so it's not about bragging rights. It's about "value", many computer gamers don't like it that people will have different value. So who are you trying to attract? Gamers or Salesmen? Forget about the TCG players, many of them won't jump from Magic to Hex.

Secondly, die when there's no value is already proven to be complete bullshit. Solforge / Hearthstone both allow you to collect all the cards without paying a dime, Solforge even offers AAs on their webshop (thereby LIMITING the upper value) while hearthstone doesn't even allow selling at all! Both are card games and both are fairly popular.

Your "value" point is pretty wrong, so stop using it.

That's not to say that some value is bad. In fact scarcity on some products is good. But STOP pushing it on everything. Leave scarcity and rarity to the cosmetics, the equipment and the cards themselves.

How difficult is it to understand that there are multiple types of players? Why do you guys who cry about value want this whole game to be the way you want it? What is wrong with our viewpoint. All we ask is mercenaries, but like entitled children, you guys start crying if even the mere mention of losing value is made (which in itself is ridiculous, because mercenaries didn't even have value to begin with).

And to be clear, we're NOT a vocal minority. And I promise you, somewhere in the future, perhaps already in a year time, people who care primarily about value and then about gameplay will be the vocal minority (they'll probably even be a tiny fraction of the full playerbase). ALl I can say to you is what you guys have been saying to us: "Adapt or get out." (feels good, doesn't it?)

(source for the mentioned uproar: http://kotaku.com/video-game-preorders-are-out-of-control-1575425040 )

Yoss
05-14-2014, 10:27 AM
bunch of stuff about how TCG needs scarcity and value
Agreed, and the cost to obtain special stuff should be roughly equal to all players at a given time, regardless of whether they live here or there. If it costs $50 for you, it should cost ~$50 for me. If $500 for you, ~$500 for me.


The KS-exclusive bonuses are far more "unfair" than the current plans for convention promos.

Not true. They were available at 100% drop rate and infinite quantity during the KS time period. To be the same, GenCon would need to follow the same model: 100% drop rate, infinite quantity during the event.


Mercenaries cost more, so they need to be worth more.

Sounds good, and the non-zero cost to obtain should be balanced for those attending versus those attending online.


Weren't we told there would be mutually exclusive pve mercs? IE you choose to help the badgers, get a badger merc, but then you can't get the mushroom merc, because now he hates you. I think having meaningful choices like this is good.
If I can start a new character on the same account, spend the time to go through the story again, and get the other options with that second character, sure. Otherwise, no thanks.


On the other side of this, I do not agree with the stances of Xen and similar about totally washing out the value of these things. I am happy to let things be scarce, as long as the ability to obtain is equal among participants at a given time. If you spent $60 and 8 hours to obtain something on August 15, then I should be able to spend roughly that same amount at the same time and get the same benefit.

Jacklau89
05-14-2014, 10:27 AM
No, he's not missing the point. You keep saying you want everyone to have everything and for everyone to be on equal footing... but that is impossible. There will always be people with more money, more time, or who live closer to in-person events. It cannot, and should not, be completely even. You keep fundamentally failing to understand that.

Got to say I disagree with this statement. If a market system (economy, for instance) is not efficient (Such as taxing the rich or the poor too much), we should go ahead and fix it. What you are saying is "Well I know it sucks for you guys but guess what, screw you man:)"

Big note here: According to theory in economics, even if two individuals have different initial endowments (i.e. money), they can still attain equilibrium and maximize their utility by FREE trading. Such outcome is considered to be the most efficient (Pareto optimum) as everyone maximize their use value now, given that there are no trade restrictions and barriers to entry (Such as price discriminating a particular type, denying their access etc.).

Although this does not mention income distribution, it is a fair economy system imo. Setting up barriers only distort the system and results in loss of rent, if not dragging us away from the equilibrium at best.

Patrigan
05-14-2014, 10:31 AM
On the other side of this, I do not agree with the stances of Xen and similar about totally washing out the value of these things. I am happy to let things be scarce, as long as the ability to obtain is equal among participants at a given time. If you spent $60 and 8 hours to obtain something on August 15, then I should be able to spend roughly that same amount at the same time and get the same benefit.

Funny part is, we're not even asking for them to become worthless. We're just asking for them to be equally attainable for most IF they do an effort or even IF they cough up some dough. So you're not even losing the complete value. I admit, they'll be worth less, but they won't be worthless. And we're mostly talking about mercenaries, we're not even touching the real valuable and rare stuff like cards and equipment.

The fact that even this is a problem for you guys, shows how entitled you guys are acting.

Yoss
05-14-2014, 10:39 AM
Funny part is, we're not even asking for them to become worthless. We're just asking for them to be equally attainable for most IF they do an effort or even IF they cough up some dough. So you're not even losing the complete value. I admit, they'll be worth less, but they won't be worthless. And we're mostly talking about mercenaries, we're not even touching the real valuable and rare stuff like cards and equipment.

The fact that even this is a problem for you guys, shows how entitled you guys are acting.

So you totally agree with me, but I'm acting entitled and somehow you aren't?

Jacklau89
05-14-2014, 10:43 AM
Exclusivity is necessary within this business model for such a large "F2P" experience to happen.

What exclusivity does is create an exponential income into the game at a price controlled by the market as opposed to being a set price by CZE. We already know CZE has set income creators in draft ($7), packs ($2), etc. What exclusivity does is create a CZE "investment" into their own game.

...
Point is exclusivity is a fine line in growing the player base but creating surplus income on the risk that the hype of the exclusive will create a value in itself.

I have to say there is something fundamentally wrong in this statement too. It is the difference in value we place on a good that drives towards trading (i.e. utility or use value), NOT exclusiveness.

Consider a simple economy with only two individuals, A and B. Both of them got an apple. Even so trading is still possible, as long as individual A values it higher (say $10) than B ($5 perhaps). Then trading will occur with the equilibrium price between $5-10, depending on their bargaining power.

Hence as long as SOME players do not have a full set of AA cards or a copy of mercenary (hence they place different marginal values towards their copy), trading is almost always possible. Exclusivity is not a necessary, nor it is a sufficient condition for potential market trade to occur.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 10:59 AM
Yoss, the only reason I want mercs to be 'worthless' is because they affect the way people play the game. If the mercs were simply alternate art versions, I wouldn't care enough to argue.

And in the end, as long as it is fair, I will suck it up.

mudkip
05-14-2014, 11:05 AM
I wouldn't mind the Mercs being worthless. Let the cards be what people collect.

BossHoss
05-14-2014, 11:05 AM
No one is arguing exclusivity. What is being argued is that the chance to get exclusive content is not gated depending on where you are on the planet.

Your example falls apart as no one is suggesting that EVERYONE gets the promo card, just that the people who are able to visit the Con aren't getting extremely improved odds.

Really? Here is a couple quotes about exclusivity...




Lastly, I am not trying to kill the value of exclusives, I am trying to limit exclusives to cosmetics, which is all that an exclusive should ever be.

Cosmetic exclusives have 0 monetary value and therefor will not create a return as large for its exclusivity as a tradable promo would based on my example previously.



First: why do mercs need to be collectible in the first place? I haven't seen any good answers to this, ever, even during the kickstarter. They affect gameplay, and the logical thing to do would be to give everyone the same chance to own them.

CZE has given us (walled from physical travel) a chance to get these. Importance in there being a chance and not the same chance. If everything was handed out at the same chance then the model should look like this. I have a net worth of $1000 so my cost at the chance to open a Jadiim is 1/1000 = $1 per pack. You have a net worth of $1,000,000 so your cost at opening a Jadiim should be 1/1000 so to be fair you should pay $1000 per pack. Now it is fair because we should both be broke in the end trying to get Jadiim. So in my example here you are arguing for equality in because I live closer and it is easier for me to get this exclusive promo I should be the one that is getting "punished" (for lack of a better word). Distance is your wall. Now let's talk about my wall. You are worth more than me so to be fair let's compromise my wall. It is a large hit to my net worth to even attempt to get Jadiim at $2 per pack. You wouldn't have to bat an eye. I GUARANTEE you would not be willing to pay $2000 per pack to make it fair. Instead let's compromise in a different light. You open $2000 in boosters as it's no big deal (your convenience) give me a Jadiim and I give you the promo (my distance convenience).

My ultimate point outside of financial value and the importance of it is look at the healthy community this creates. Instead of trying to bring eachother down so we are all broke in the end, how about enjoying the hunt, make some friends in the meantime and figure out the best possible way to get everything you want in the game the way you want it.

If you would prefer to not make friends, not socially interact, and have everything handed to you (general meaning not personal) while the game financially crumbles around you then you will continuously have those that fight against you for the health of their community.

Gwaer
05-14-2014, 11:06 AM
It is fair, everyone has the same chance to get the mercs out of boosters no matter where you are. If you buy your way into an event that has that merc as a reward, be it a tournament, or an event in a location that's CZE's perogative to reward people for doing the things in the places they want to. Whether that is an event in japan, germany, or the usa is irrelevant, whether that tournament is part of a ladder that you had to win x events to be in or is free to join. The base chance is the same for everyone.


Well said bosshoss ^I completely agree.

ossuary
05-14-2014, 11:06 AM
Secondly, die when there's no value is already proven to be complete bullshit. Solforge / Hearthstone both allow you to collect all the cards without paying a dime, Solforge even offers AAs on their webshop (thereby LIMITING the upper value) while hearthstone doesn't even allow selling at all! Both are card games and both are fairly popular.

Your "value" point is pretty wrong, so stop using it.

CCG <> TCG.

Different genre, different equation. Just because they both have cards in them doesn't mean they function the same way.

Patrigan
05-14-2014, 11:08 AM
So you totally agree with me, but I'm acting entitled and somehow you aren't?

You're acting entitled because you want it all.

We just want one tiny part to be handled the way we like it, with less scarcity and equal chances for everyone t attain it (IF they do the effort). This means everyone today, tomorrow in a years time, should have equal chance at attaining it.

In a sense, we care more about the future community and you care more about your own wallet. It's not the exact definition of entitlement, but it comes pretty darn close.

Patrigan
05-14-2014, 11:12 AM
CCG <> TCG.

Different genre, different equation. Just because they both have cards in them doesn't mean they function the same way.

That's the only part you can comment on? Yet the point you try to make in it is still wrong?

I used it to show that people can enjoy a card game, any card game, WITHOUT there being value to their collection. It does not matter if cards can be traded or not (in fact SolForge said that they will eventually introduce trading.) People don't need value to enjoy their collection. People don't need to know they can make money to enjoy a computer game.

Your point about this game dieing if not everything has value is therefor wrong. By using several counter examples I showed that you have an equally high (if not higher) risk of this game going down the drain by having exclusives.

And all we ask is just a tiny part. You still have your collection value.

Gwaer
05-14-2014, 11:13 AM
I think future communities should have their own rare items that are interesting and chasey, they should have the same opportunities we had to want/hunt/work for these incredibly rare items that people that came before, but weren't involved at their time will have to buy from them, or go without, and people that come after will have to buy from them or come after. You're instead robbing everyone of that opportunity.

Patrigan
05-14-2014, 11:21 AM
I think future communities should have their own rare items that are interesting and chasey, they should have the same opportunities we had to want/hunt/work for these incredibly rare items that people that came before, but weren't involved at their time will have to buy from them, or go without, and people that come after will have to buy from them or come after. You're instead robbing everyone of that opportunity.

How? There's still enough for them do hunt, it's not like we're asking that everyone permanently has every card in their collection (quite the opposite). I already said so, there can still be some scarcity, there can still be a hunt.

Gwaer
05-14-2014, 11:25 AM
How what?

The current implementation of special one off mercs accomplish that exactly. People who are active, and interested obtain the merc, future community members that didn't have the opportunity buy it from those players on the AH if they want it, or trade for a merc the first guy finds more interesting but he didn't have the opportunity or good fortune to get. Not everyone will want all mercs, in fact most people won't.

mudkip
05-14-2014, 11:26 AM
Really? Here is a couple quotes about exclusivity...
My mistake.

Yoss
05-14-2014, 11:29 AM
You're acting entitled because you want it all.

We just want one tiny part to be handled the way we like it, with less scarcity and equal chances for everyone t attain it (IF they do the effort). This means everyone today, tomorrow in a years time, should have equal chance at attaining it.

In a sense, we care more about the future community and you care more about your own wallet. It's not the exact definition of entitlement, but it comes pretty darn close.

So it seems safe to assume you believe card sets should never go out of print. Correct? It's the same logic.

Patrigan
05-14-2014, 11:32 AM
So it seems safe to assume you believe card sets should never go out of print. Correct? It's the same logic.

Actually I'm indeed not a fan of it. But I'm less worried about that, because there will likely be "reprints".

However, my point was very simple, there's already a lot to collect and a lot with value, what's wrong with giving people like me something as well? What's wrong with catering to both our playstyles?

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 11:39 AM
Sorry, but anyone claiming that cosmetic items have no value is living in the stone age - many games are thriving off cosmetic items. Some even support themselves through little more than cosmetics.

Borderlands 2, Hearthstone, and (I think) League of legends - all have collectible cosmetics, some of which are paid. Even Hearthstone was making money through this by offering a gold promo to anyone spending money in their beta. And people sink tons of money and time into collecting the cards with moving art.

Cosmetics hold plenty of value, otherwise Cory wouldn't bother with sleeves for cons. So I think they could easily substitute mercs for cosmetics, and still attract the same amount of people.

mudkip
05-14-2014, 11:47 AM
Sorry, but anyone claiming that cosmetic items have no value is living in the stone age - many games are thriving off cosmetic items. Some even support themselves through little more than cosmetics.

Borderlands 2, Hearthstone, and (I think) League of legends - all have collectible cosmetics, some of which are paid. Even Hearthstone was making money through this by offering a gold promo to anyone spending money in their beta. And people sink tons of money and time into collecting the cards with moving art.

Cosmetics hold plenty of value, otherwise Cory wouldn't bother with sleeves for cons. So I think they could easily substitute mercs for cosmetics, and still attract the same amount of people.

There's items in TF2 that (I think) are just visual and selling for >$1000.

Yoss
05-14-2014, 11:48 AM
Actually I'm indeed not a fan of it. But I'm less worried about that, because there will likely be "reprints".

However, my point was very simple, there's already a lot to collect and a lot with value, what's wrong with giving people like me something as well? What's wrong with catering to both our playstyles?

Ah, so that's where we differ then. I am a big fan of the MTG Reserve List, even though I own almost nothing from it. I like the idea of things going out of print while remaining available through collectors. With Hex, unlike MTG, I'm lucky enough to be in early, but I never felt bad in MTG just because I got there late. I just played with what I had and would save up money if there was a particular old card I wanted.

My only complaint would be if they favor event attendance over money spent remotely for attaining non-vanity items. (AA cards and sleeves are vanity items. Mercs and PvE cards are not.)

BossHoss
05-14-2014, 11:50 AM
Sorry, but anyone claiming that cosmetic items have no value is living in the stone age - many games are thriving off cosmetic items. Some even support themselves through little more than cosmetics.

Borderlands 2, Hearthstone, and (I think) League of legends - all have collectible cosmetics, some of which are paid. Even Hearthstone was making money through this by offering a gold promo to anyone spending money in their beta. And people sink tons of money and time into collecting the cards with moving art.

Cosmetics hold plenty of value, otherwise Cory wouldn't bother with sleeves for cons. So I think they could easily substitute mercs for cosmetics, and still attract the same amount of people.

I have no doubt that cosmetic items have value and do not think otherwise. Cosmetic items in Hex however have 0 value to the company from a business model standpoint.

Based on my previous model example cosmetics could sink CZE. They are not tradeable but cost money to produce and will not return cash flow. CZE is adamant to not sell cosmetics so it is irrelevant to compare Hex to a successful LOL, Hearthstone, or other similar business model.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 12:01 PM
I have no doubt that cosmetic items have value and do not think otherwise. Cosmetic items in Hex however have 0 value to the company from a business model standpoint.

Based on my previous model example cosmetics could sink CZE. They are not tradeable but cost money to produce and will not return cash flow. CZE is adamant to not sell cosmetics so it is irrelevant to compare Hex to a successful LOL, Hearthstone, or other similar business model.

And how exactly do mercs magically produce income that cosmetic items dont? Most mercs have been sold on ebay, and assuming they include tradable cosmetic items (like AA) then they will have the same ingame worth as mercs. Your argument here makes no sense when comparing the two, because mercs dont magically print money.

So tell me, how does a cosmetic item fail to produce the same income as mercs? They are serving the same exact purpose to collectors. Not to mention, getting a piece of art is a lot simpler than programming a new merc.

EntropyBall
05-14-2014, 12:07 PM
I can't get over the idea that people who want to have everything think that other people are entitled. You clearly think that you are entitled to an equal shot at mercenaries. Please explain to me how I am acting entitled by defending the con-exclusive items, given that I won't be attending the con anyway?

The other argument that I keep seeing is the idea that "there is plenty to collect so don't make this thing a collectible". I see, so the thing that *you* want shouldn't be a collectible, but its ok that other things are. I really like Jadiim and Urunaaz, and there is plenty of other things to collect in this game, so I think we should make the Mercs collectible, but make legendary dragons not a collectible. Anyone else think this is a good idea in a TCG?

The argument that exclusive Mercs will destry competitive PVE balance doesn't hold water in light of the fact that there was a Kickstarter. If player A farms content 2x as fast as B because A has some con exclusive merc, that's not nearly as unfair as the fact that player C can always farm all content twice as fast as non-KS player because he is a Dungeon Master KS backer. He has an untradeable lifetime perk that no one can ever get again.

Also, the comparisons to other video games are mostly invalid because those are not collectible card games. When you are playing a TCG/CCG, you have to accept that it costs money and you won't be on a 100% equal playing field with someone who has a lot more disposable income than you.
A lot of the games used for arguments against exclusive content are bundled with some untradeable DLC that makes it impossible to get everything without buying the game multiple times and/or for different platforms. That's not a problem here since its tradeable.

BossHoss
05-14-2014, 12:09 PM
And how exactly do mercs magically produce income that cosmetic items dont? Most mercs have been sold on ebay, and assuming they include tradable cosmetic items (like AA) then they will have the same ingame worth as mercs. Your argument here makes no sense when comparing the two, because mercs dont magically print money.

So tell me, how does a cosmetic item fail to produce the same income as mercs? They are serving the same exact purpose to collectors. Not to mention, getting a piece of art is a lot simpler than programming a new merc.

Post #153 to start... I am on lunch in 20 and need to charge my cell so I will follow up with more detail then

One major thing though is how detrimental EBay can be if the AH does not satisfy

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 12:17 PM
Post #153 to start... I am on lunch in 20 and need to charge my cell so I will follow up with more detail then

One major thing though is how detrimental EBay can be if the AH does not satisfy

I have read that post - that doesn't change anything in my argument at all. A cosmetic item can be completely exclusive. That actually opens up the possibility of having hundreds more exclusive items, because you don't have to worry about being fair (since cosmetics don't impact that actual gameplay.)

See, a decent cosmetic item (especially if it was an awesome card in it's own right, in the case of AA) will generate the exact same amount of hype as a merc would - except you can do it without pissing people off. Collectors have their juicy items, the people concerned with their wallets still get their profits, and the players who want to actually have fun get to have fun without worrying about being screwed the next time an event rolls round.

I mean, tell me right now - do you think an AA Vampire king or Angel of dawn would be worth significantly less than a crappy merc? Because given the prices floating around for pre-orders for those cards, I think you would find those cards being worth a good deal more.

(Oh, and lets not forget that MTG did this for years and has a huge playerbase. They didn't need mercs to do that.)

zadies
05-14-2014, 12:50 PM
Someone just thinks that cze should not in anyway encourage pve players to spend a dime on the game is all I really hear any more when I read all the give me everything with no effort on my part pve posts.

Patrigan
05-14-2014, 12:57 PM
Someone just thinks that cze should not in anyway encourage pve players to spend a dime on the game is all I really hear any more when I read all the give me everything with no effort on my part pve posts.

And all I'm hearing are a bunch of people twisting the words of others... You should go back and properly read everything before further commenting in this thread. Nowhere has it been said that there should be no effort.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 12:59 PM
Someone just thinks that cze should not in anyway encourage pve players to spend a dime on the game is all I really hear any more when I read all the give me everything with no effort on my part pve posts.

So spending a bunch of money on PvP packs (that PvE players probably wont want to fork out for in the first place) is 'not spending a dime'? Christ, we aren't asking to get producer treatment with a set of every card, we are talking about a fair shot at getting the same rewards rather than getting screwed by the distance.

My personal views about mercs aside, if the drop rate is too low in packs, PvE players will simply not get the mercs unless they also play PvP, and that is not healthy for the game. Plain and simple.

zadies
05-14-2014, 01:01 PM
Actual you have moved the argument from I want a fair drop rate to I just want you to hand me the merc period about 20 posts ago. How many packs do you feel you should have to open to get all con exclusives?

Yoss
05-14-2014, 01:01 PM
How many packs do you feel you should have to open to get all con exclusives?

Less than 100, more than 10.

Yoss
05-14-2014, 01:11 PM
Idea to mitigate the problem of being "locked out" of content (mercs, cards, whatever):

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=35686

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 01:17 PM
Actual you have moved the argument from I want a fair drop rate to I just want you to hand me the merc period about 20 posts ago. How many packs do you feel you should have to open to get all con exclusives?

My stance has been fairness across every post - I would personally prefer no exclusive mercs, end of story, but I am willing to drop it if we are assured a fair drop rate. Although the discussion in general is looking pretty good, I hope a compromise along those lines could be met.

As for the rates? I would hope an AA is about 1/10, the grindable mercs (like Portensio) is about 1/25, and the door merc (technically the rarest) should be around 1/50 packs. No sleeves, since I can agree with Cory on that one.

But I wonder if those items will be the only ones available in the con? Perhaps they will have fun consumables for PvE in there (otherwise the loot table is going to look very bland and hardly 'event'-ish.) Could be interesting to see what minor things they might add in there.

Perhaps the rates could be boosted a little this year since there are two years worth of rewards to worry about, and then make it slightly rarer next year? Like make the mercs 1/20 and 1/40 for the different rarities? Because it might be tough to collect them all with RNG kicking your ass.

zadies
05-14-2014, 01:20 PM
So basically 20-40 assuming average luck... I don't actually think anyone was really arguing with you saying they should be rarer, only that they shouldn't cost terribly less then event admission.

hex_colin
05-14-2014, 01:28 PM
My stance has been fairness across every post - I would personally prefer no exclusive mercs, end of story, but I am willing to drop it if we are assured a fair drop rate. Although the discussion in general is looking pretty good, I hope a compromise along those lines could be met.

As for the rates? I would hope an AA is about 1/10, the grindable mercs (like Portensio) is about 1/25, and the door merc (technically the rarest) should be around 1/50 packs. No sleeves, since I can agree with Cory on that one.

But I wonder if those items will be the only ones available in the con? Perhaps they will have fun consumables for PvE in there (otherwise the loot table is going to look very bland and hardly 'event'-ish.) Could be interesting to see what minor things they might add in there.

Perhaps the rates could be boosted a little this year since there are two years worth of rewards to worry about, and then make it slightly rarer next year? Like make the mercs 1/20 and 1/40 for the different rarities? Because it might be tough to collect them all with RNG kicking your ass.

Those rates would seem pretty fair to me too (whether or not that's the reality). My original comment was intended to stem the general "open a chest during an event and get a guaranteed Merc" sentiment that seemed to be creeping into these conversations since I know for sure that they won't be that common.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 01:31 PM
So basically 20-40 assuming average luck... I don't actually think anyone was really arguing with you saying they should be rarer, only that they shouldn't cost terribly less then event admission.

I never said they should cost less than admission (well, perhaps I did indirectly by saying I didn't want them to be exclusive at all, but I never said I wanted them to be dirt cheap if they came from boosters). And yeah, 20-40 is still 4000-8000 plat ($40-$80) and that wont guarantee you a full set of everything. That is still a little steep, and will be fairly restrictive for a lot of people, but it is a lot more fair than 1/1000 or something horrible.

Just as long as you have a decent chance to get them before the time limit expires, and don't need to spend more than they will be worth, I will be content.

BossHoss
05-14-2014, 01:42 PM
I have read that post - that doesn't change anything in my argument at all. A cosmetic item can be completely exclusive. That actually opens up the possibility of having hundreds more exclusive items, because you don't have to worry about being fair (since cosmetics don't impact that actual gameplay.)
For ease of explanation I am going to sub you (your side's stance) and me (my side's stance) so nothing personal.


See, a decent cosmetic item (especially if it was an awesome card in it's own right, in the case of AA) will generate the exact same amount of hype as a merc would - except you can do it without pissing people off. Collectors have their juicy items, the people concerned with their wallets still get their profits, and the players who want to actually have fun get to have fun without worrying about being screwed the next time an event rolls round.
The problem with a non tradeable cosmetic item creating just as much hype as an exclusive tradeable item is, unless it is carefully designed to bring new cash flow into the game, most likely a financial loss. This does not mean they should not exist as each exclusive needs to have its own agenda. Some increase player base, some bring in cash flow, etc.

Problem is somebody is always going to be pissed off so this could likely be a dispute for eternity ;p
You are PO'd if it's not easily obtainable because you feel robbed of the opportunity to experience fun for a discount. I feel PO'd and robbed of value because it is easily obtainable.

Again I argue to have a different approach to the game, rather than cater the game to your approach. I am guilty of this too as it's a fine line to argue for steps in our direction and not want leaps in our direction.


I mean, tell me right now - do you think an AA Vampire king or Angel of dawn would be worth significantly less than a crappy merc? Because given the prices floating around for pre-orders for those cards, I think you would find those cards being worth a good deal more.

(Oh, and lets not forget that MTG did this for years and has a huge playerbase. They didn't need mercs to do that.)

MtG also did not have a free to play aspect to their game or any of their business models. Personally I have expressed my view on the matter and would rather spend my time finding a way to have everything rather than be given everything.

My main issue is the abundance of Mercs that will be in the game and if they are worthless (given to everybody) PvE will have to find another way to make money (rarity of possession). Cue crossover to p2w thread!

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 01:50 PM
BossHoss, I think you might have misunderstood me - I didn't say the cosmetic-only stuff would be non-tradeable. AA's, sleeves, and possibly alternate art (or names, for lore purposes) mercs could be given without locking off any portion of the gameplay.

And PvE will have ways to make money according to everything we have ever heard (shiny equipment etc) that players will fork over gold or plat for. Not to mention they might have AA cards from recipes dropped in raids (mentioned in passing by Cory - that would be a massive draw). I don't see how they have to resort to mercs, is my point, because they have a bunch of different options for it.

zadies
05-14-2014, 03:42 PM
Mercs give something of value for a PvP only player to trade to a pve only player so that the pvper can get gold to roll on their chests if nothing else.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 03:45 PM
Mercs give something of value for a PvP only player to trade to a pve only player so that the pvper can get gold to roll on their chests if nothing else.

I highly doubt any con item will be sold for gold.

Yoss
05-14-2014, 04:10 PM
I highly doubt any con item will be sold for gold.

Want to place a bet on it? Name your price. I have up to 300 packs I'm willing to wager. As long as there's no limit on how much gold the person can request, it will happen. Maybe it will cost 10,000,000 gold, but it will happen. All the more because mercs are native to PvE, where gold is the currency.

Xenavire
05-14-2014, 04:45 PM
Want to place a bet on it? Name your price. I have up to 300 packs I'm willing to wager. As long as there's no limit on how much gold the person can request, it will happen. Maybe it will cost 10,000,000 gold, but it will happen. All the more because mercs are native to PvE, where gold is the currency.

OK, I didn't factor in the gencon chests when I said that. I seriously need to get more rest, this cold is beating the shit out of me.

Still, I doubt it will ever happen at a reasonable price compared to mercs found elsewhere in the game.

zadies
05-14-2014, 05:57 PM
Chase items never go for reasonable rates when compared to non chase items.

Vorpal
05-14-2014, 09:16 PM
What Patrigan is asking for has never been the case in any TCG, ever.

It has never been the case that what is available now will be equally available to all forever, in perpetuity.

Sets rotate out. Cards go out of print.

It's the way things work.

Without this principle, collections decrease in value, not increase.

You cannot reconcile your desire with your claim that you still want collections to have value.

Patrigan
05-15-2014, 11:24 PM
What Patrigan is asking for has never been the case in any TCG, ever.

It has never been the case that what is available now will be equally available to all forever, in perpetuity.

Sets rotate out. Cards go out of print.

It's the way things work.

Without this principle, collections decrease in value, not increase.

You cannot reconcile your desire with your claim that you still want collections to have value.

Bullshit. And please, don't twist my words, It really makes you look like a major dick.

I never asked for collections not have value. I just asked for mercenaries to basically be "reprinted" more often than normal cards, not given for free or automatically. An effort should still be made, but conventions is not the answer. This means that a mercenary should not be exclusive to that convention.

I also did not ask for removal of rotation of cards. In fact my original proposal puts the mercs on a more merciless rotation than any other collectible. When the available mercs rotate weekly and not every week it contains a con exclusive, then you know your value will still be there. They can still be given out at events, but with some sort of double back denoting "this is the convention version", which should keep those higher valued as well.

Finally, I'm not even talking about cards or AAs or sleeves. PLENTY of items for your collection to have value. Sheesh, you ask for one small thing and suddenly for some people the sky is falling. This is why you can't discuss stuff with people on the internet, they just don't think things through and jump straight to the assumptions.

So please, stop twisting people's words and ideas in order to protect your own.

I'm tired of discussing and repeating myself. You guys keep twisting and turning the things people like Xenavire and myself say anyway, so there really is no point. I hope CZE has read our remarks and I know that they at least are capable of thinking it through.

To those who actually did an effort to understand us, thank you.

Vorpal
05-16-2014, 10:23 AM
Bullshit. And please, don't twist my words, It really makes you look like a major dick.

You've been quite acerbic and hostile in this thread from the beginning, which is one reason why your views are so poorly received.

You said:
This means everyone today, tomorrow in a years time, should have equal chance at attaining it.

And then I said


What Patrigan is asking for has never been the case in any TCG, ever.

It has never been the case that what is available now will be equally available to all forever, in perpetuity.

That's not twisting your words.

No CCG made has operated on this principle. It wouldn't even be possible if they so desired.

So far you have advanced one entirely unworkable principle (see above) and other than that, I'm not sure what you want. Some people are arguing mercs should be 'hard' to obtain some say they should be 'easy' but without specific definitions of these, meaningful dialog is not likely to occur.

I am happy that people who don't go to the conventions will have a chance of opening these con exclusives in packs during the time of the con. I have no idea with the sleeves being exclusive to people who actually attended the con. For everything else, if you can round it up on ebay for whatever for the same price as a con ticket, I don't really see a problem. I've already accepted I won't get all the mercenaries this game has, and I think the sooner everyone else does the same the happier they'll be :D

Patrigan
05-16-2014, 12:37 PM
snip

I wasn't hostile in the beginning, people like you make me hostile. You basically skim over 90% over what I wrote in my last post, which explained how you are twisting words. You are among the most disrespectful people in this thread. If that makes you hate me, fine, but learn to participate in a proper discussion, or don't participate at all. I will therefor no longer talk to you (in fact, welcome to my ignore list). Don't even bother replying to me anymore, since I can't see it anyway.

Urgh, forum discussions... Luckily, CZE is more open for proper dialogue than some people here.

zadies
05-17-2014, 05:12 AM
Cze has already made their concession in this regard during last gen con. If they give into forum rage again it would make a number of collectors doubt they have any intention of maintain the value of their collections. It would also spread doubt's about other policies such as we won't Nerf cards.

Xenavire
05-17-2014, 09:18 AM
Cze has already made their concession in this regard during last gen con. If they give into forum rage again it would make a number of collectors doubt they have any intention of maintain the value of their collections. It would also spread doubt's about other policies such as we won't Nerf cards.

There is are false implications here though - they never set in stone any of the details, barring that they would make those gencon items available. Also, they never said they wouldn't reconsider (for either side). In fact, until any solid details are out there, collectors should be as worried as everyone else. *Shrug*

At least they have been consistently firm on card nerfing.