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View Full Version : Let's talk about: new player package



mach
05-20-2014, 04:34 AM
Imagine that you're a new player who has just received a beta key from somewhere. Unlike most people posting here, you have no emotional attachment to Hex. You're willing to spend some money on the game, but need to be convinced that it's a better use of your gaming budget than all those other games.

You download the client and logon for the first time. What can you do before you spend money, to help convince you that you'll be getting value for your money? Currently, the answer is ... not much. You can play other people using your starter. That's it. You can't try out Limited play. You can't start deckbuilding.

Eventually, this won't be a problem because of PvE. But until then, it is a big problem which may prevent the game from taking off. Take a look at what Hearthstone offers new players before it asks them to spend a dime. You get some free packs, in-game currency, a free Limited play ticket, and a whole bunch of free cards (basic cards) to start deckbuilding with.

Being this generous with Hex is tricky because things are tradeable. However, for now you still can't make unlimited free accounts because you need a beta key for each account. Additionally, I don't think adding free product to the economy will devalue things that much, since set 1 will very likely already have very little value due to all the KS rewards. So I think just as CZE is being very generous to existing players (offering compensation significantly in excess of the value actually lost), they can and should be generous to new players who are deciding whether it's worth it to them to spend money or not.

What do you all think?

Xenavire
05-20-2014, 04:40 AM
Imagine that you're a new player who has just received a beta key from somewhere. Unlike most people posting here, you have no emotional attachment to Hex. You're willing to spend some money on the game, but need to be convinced that it's a better use of your gaming budget than all those other games.

You download the client and logon for the first time. What can you do before you spend money, to help convince you that you'll be getting value for your money? Currently, the answer is ... not much. You can play other people using your starter. That's it. You can't try out Limited play. You can't start deckbuilding.

Eventually, this won't be a problem because of PvE. But until then, it is a big problem which may prevent the game from taking off. Take a look at what Hearthstone offers new players before it asks them to spend a dime. You get some free packs, in-game currency, a free Limited play ticket, and a whole bunch of free cards (basic cards) to start deckbuilding with.

Being this generous with Hex is tricky because things are tradeable. However, for now you still can't make unlimited free accounts because you need a beta key for each account. Additionally, I don't think adding free product to the economy will devalue things that much, since set 1 will very likely already have very little value due to all the KS rewards. So I think just as CZE is being very generous to existing players (offering compensation significantly in excess of the value actually lost), they can and should be generous to new players who are deciding whether it's worth it to them to spend money or not.

What do you all think?

We are days/weeks away from trading. I think that will be more than enough for new players (buy a few dirt cheap commons, ask old pros for a stack of commons they dont need, etc.)

I have no real use for a few hundred of my commons, so chances are you could hit me up for a few when trading is out.

mach
05-20-2014, 04:47 AM
We are days/weeks away from trading. I think that will be more than enough for new players (buy a few dirt cheap commons, ask old pros for a stack of commons they dont need, etc.)

I have no real use for a few hundred of my commons, so chances are you could hit me up for a few when trading is out.

Trading will help some when it gets here, but I don't think that relying on the generosity of existing players is a good strategy in general. Hopefully there will be far more new players than your stock of extra commons can handle, right?

Commons/uncommons won't have value anyway, so I don't see the harm in giving them away directly. Make them non-disenchantable if you're worried about the effect on crafting.

Plus, giving away free commons only helps with half the problem. The other half is having a try-before-you-buy hook for Limited.

Pheelon
05-20-2014, 04:48 AM
I woudn't mind if they (Beta - not Backer - flagged accounts) lets say get an expiring draft ticket to test out limited till trading/ah is up and running - but that isn't up to me ;)

Poetic
05-20-2014, 04:55 AM
I don't see anything wrong with maybe 1 draft ticket per beta account but every tcg I've played in the past I've had to invest money into as a start up.

Blizzard can give stuff away because their cards have no value.

FranzVonG
05-20-2014, 04:58 AM
1 Draft ticket, that's where they will get addicted ;)

But you will have to ensure that's not easy to create infinite accounts and get free cards in that way

mach
05-20-2014, 05:03 AM
1 Draft ticket, that's where they will get addicted ;)

But you will have to ensure that's not easy to create infinite accounts and get free cards in that way

You need a beta key to create an account right now. I agree that once open beta comes and accounts can be created freely you can't be as generous anymore.

Kardh
05-20-2014, 05:07 AM
Yeah, I was thinking the same when I saw that I got a beta key to give away. I don't think I'll give it away until trading is in so I can help him out with some cards/packs also since I don't really believe it will be a positive enough experience right now.

I don't see why you wouldn't get all 4 starter decks so you at least can try out some different play styles. It seems still to have to "choose a playstyle" before you can try any of them out.

There should also be a "only basic starter decks" play queue (or something to that effect) so you can fool around without getting crushed by awesome decks.

I know PvE will bridge this gap eventually, but for the time being it's a rather big gap for someone unfamiliar with card games at least.

Turtlewing
05-20-2014, 05:16 AM
I think that it's beta and you shouldn't be inviting people who don't know what they're getting into.

Right now Hex is a pay to play game. If they're not onboard for buying some packs to get started they shouldn't be in this phase of the beta.

When PvE is released it will be a different situation.

hexnaes
05-20-2014, 05:23 AM
These beta key invites are WAY too soon.

There's no chance I would invite any friends to play this game in its current state. It would be a waste of their money if they bought any plat.

I've tried to play three tournaments since closed beta, and all three have had problems. The last tournament I tried to play yesterday, and after winning the first round the tournament froze while in the lobby. I waited for 1.5 hours in that lobby waiting for the next round. I was extremely frustrated.

This game is not ready for new players that will possibly been extremely turned off of Hex if they experience the same problems I've been experiencing the past couple weeks.

Sorry if this post was negative, but I really want this game to succeed. Inviting people to a buggy game with very little to do outside of buying plat/packs and playing in buggy tournaments is not a good way to grow customers.

Ogodei
05-20-2014, 05:41 AM
I agree that they should improve the new player experience if they are giving out keys. As it's apparently mostly "invite a friend" at this point I would have waited at least until trading is in (actually I wouldn't have invited any non-backers at all without a solid PVE experience, but that's another matter).

It seems we're expected to take the people we invite with our keys by the hand and help them to get started with the game (and please try to do that if you give your key to someone), but at least being able to give them some cards would have made this a lot easier.

Ah well, maybe we still miracolously get the AH this week (Friday?).

AstaSyneri
05-20-2014, 05:44 AM
Right now the key feature is playing drafts.

What I would recommend any new player to do is:


Take your starter and play 2-3 games vs. AI to see whether you think you like the game (don't forget to slot any shards, if you have any cards with slots ;-))
Go to one of the great deck builders (I prefer hex.tcgbrowser.com) and read up on a few cards, especially uncommons.
Get some platinum and play either a draft (if you have done some reading) or a sealed (if you rather skipped step 2) tournament
While trading is still off, start building your collection from his. Even if you are not a great draft player, you'll eventually get up into the 2nd or 3rd round and start winning boosters. "Reinvest those into more drafts" and you will be able to build a good card pool cheaply - while having fun and learning the game to boot.


Hex is the most entry-friendly TCG I know of.

Obviously getting the big three going:


AH/Direct Trading
Guild Functions
PvE Arena



is of paramount importance right now.

ManofPeace
05-20-2014, 05:57 AM
Hex is the most entry-friendly TCG I know of.

Which doesn't mean much until it implements more than its PvP aspect. Hex is half as expensive as MTG but $7 is $7 and that is still far more expensive than other forms of entertainment. Having people spend money in the beta to see if they want to play the game isn't exactly a great way to promote the game. I'm not quite sure if another game has ever had players consistently pay during a (closed) beta to well, play the game. I'd sure like to know for curiosity's sake.

Like many others, I'm not remotely comfortable inviting people in to the game who don't already have a history of TCG. Quite frankly, I hope open beta is a long way away since they have a lot to work on.

ossuary
05-20-2014, 05:57 AM
I think it could be a wise decision by CZE to give all non-backer closed beta accounts a single non-expiring non-tradeable draft ticket in addition to the free starter. If they were concerned about that generating too many additional cards, they could always just flag the drafted cards as non-tradeable like the free starter is non-tradeable (but let any boosters they won be tradeable as normal). It would be a great way to let a brand new player get a feel for the most addicting and rewarding part of the game, and also get a few extra cards to allow them to toy around with editing a deck without having to put any real money in. I think that's a good move.

Obviously, once a first chunk of PVE goes in, this would no longer be necessary. But in the meantime, it could be a very valuable addition. I know personally I don't have anyone who I would give my free beta key to, just because there's not enough of an experience they can have yet without dumping some cash.

The two people I know who are actually interested in the game right now (my brother, and my Magic playing whale friend) wouldn't like the current experience. My brother has never played a TCG, so I think it would be too daunting without more research time than he's willing to spend on a game when he could just play something he already understands immediately, and my friend has said quite bluntly that he can only afford one pay to play addiction right now. But I'm still convinced if I could actually get him to play a draft, he would be hooked. ;)

Dichdude
05-20-2014, 06:13 AM
While there is no PvE in the game maybe letting new players grind out extra cards for their deck to give them something to do because 1 deck and a buggy AI is not going to convince any of them to start putting money into the game, infact they will just go off and post Hex is some sort of money grab. They need to get new players engaged with the game BEFORE most of them will spend money on it.

I truly believe that Hex is a great idea but maybe just maybe the wrong team are making it; Imagine if someone like Valve was making this game.

I don't mean to sound so harsh, it's just I love the vision of the game SO much but CZE seems to just be F*ing up so hard at the moment I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

hexnaes
05-20-2014, 06:17 AM
While there is no PvE in the game maybe letting new players grind out extra cards for their deck to give them something to do because 1 deck and a buggy AI is not going to convince any of them to start putting money into the game, infact they will just go off and post Hex is some sort of money grab. They need to get new players engaged with the game BEFORE most of them will spend money on it.

I truly believe that Hex is a great idea but maybe just maybe the wrong team are making it; Imagine if someone like Valve was making this game.

I don't mean to sound so harsh, it's just I love the vision of the game SO much but CZE seems to just be F*ing up so hard at the moment I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

Agree completely.

If I were a new player, Hex would look exactly like a money grab.

They should not be introducing new players to this game in the state it's in.

Soul-of-Void
05-20-2014, 06:19 AM
Even commons will have some value when PVE hits, couse if memory serves me right there will be a way to shatter cards and get materials to create new ones, so it will be nice to hold on to them.

As for new players most important will be when PVE hit the client for that completly free feel. Makes me wonder hows going work on AI.

Dynimix
05-20-2014, 06:22 AM
It is an interesting concept. Couple of thoughts. There were a couple of mentions of giving all of the starter decks to new people. This really devalues the $10 that they cost and the fact that many people Kickstarted this game to get the same things. I don't personally care, but I know that some people will.

Also, I have given the beta key to quite a few friends and have simply told them that this is beta and there are plenty more features to come. I explained that there are a few bugs, but that the game is extremely fun and rewarding. They have enjoyed it so far.

Prodygi
05-20-2014, 06:25 AM
While there is no PvE in the game maybe letting new players grind out extra cards for their deck to give them something to do because 1 deck and a buggy AI is not going to convince any of them to start putting money into the game, infact they will just go off and post Hex is some sort of money grab. They need to get new players engaged with the game BEFORE most of them will spend money on it.

I truly believe that Hex is a great idea but maybe just maybe the wrong team are making it; Imagine if someone like Valve was making this game.

I don't mean to sound so harsh, it's just I love the vision of the game SO much but CZE seems to just be F*ing up so hard at the moment I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

This!

Quite a number of new players logged in today and have no idea what to do. They literally asks if the only way they could play atm is to spend money. I can imagine a number of them getting quite turned off by the answer.

Single elimination drafts also meant that those who spent money PROBABLY didn't last very long. Bad first impression.

Kami
05-20-2014, 06:28 AM
You have to keep in mind that the main reason for these keys was that a lot of Guild Master tiers were asking for them. Guild Master tier also includes three codes for thirty boosters each!

I'd wager that with thirty boosters, anybody entering the closed beta will have a sufficient start. The question now is what will the other players do that do not have these booster codes to offer considering that there is no trading or AH yet.

Pheelon
05-20-2014, 06:31 AM
These beta key invites are WAY too soon.

There's no chance I would invite any friends to play this game in its current state. It would be a waste of their money if they bought any plat.

I've tried to play three tournaments since closed beta, and all three have had problems. The last tournament I tried to play yesterday, and after winning the first round the tournament froze while in the lobby. I waited for 1.5 hours in that lobby waiting for the next round. I was extremely frustrated.

This game is not ready for new players that will possibly been extremely turned off of Hex if they experience the same problems I've been experiencing the past couple weeks.

Sorry if this post was negative, but I really want this game to succeed. Inviting people to a buggy game with very little to do outside of buying plat/packs and playing in buggy tournaments is not a good way to grow customers.

hmm, i had problems wirh like 2-3 drafts since the memory leak fix - and i did like 50 drafts all together so i guess your just really unlucky.

negativeZer0
05-20-2014, 06:32 AM
I think they need to enable starter deck only swiss tournaments.
I don't know how hard this would be for them too add but if they could add it in quickly
new players could enter these for a very low cost and win packs to start building a collection

Payout would be 1 pack per win (this results in 12 total packs)

PvP should always remain a paid feature in the game (aka no freebies just for making an account) but this gives a low cost entry point

Dynimix
05-20-2014, 06:33 AM
I think they need to enable preconstructed deck tournaments.


I think that this more than anything, would go a very long way!

DocX
05-20-2014, 06:42 AM
You have to keep in mind that the main reason for these keys was that a lot of Guild Master tiers were asking for them. Guild Master tier also includes three codes for thirty boosters each!

I'd wager that with thirty boosters, anybody entering the closed beta will have a sufficient start. The question now is what will the other players do that do not have these booster codes to offer considering that there is no trading or AH yet.

So, just to make sure I'm understanding, as a Grand King (which includes Guild Master), the beta key I was just provided via e-mail also includes 30 boosters? Because I got one e-mail with one Beta code. It mentioned the beta account will get one starter, but nothing about additional boosters. Am I missing an e-mail? Or did I get the wrong e-mail? Wanting to make sure my expectations are correctly set based on what I'm inferring from your post.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 06:51 AM
I agree that new players need something, currently a beta-acc doesnt do anything for them. Maybe 1 free draft/month/2 weeks until it's open beta/other ways to earn cards?

Currently somebody into hex expecting a f2p card game will get nothing out of it.

And I'm a backer myself so please don't play the "ur cheap" card.

Also the starter-decks are a beginners trap, at least put SOMETHING into them :/

Kami
05-20-2014, 06:55 AM
So, just to make sure I'm understanding, as a Grand King (which includes Guild Master), the beta key I was just provided via e-mail also includes 30 boosters? Because I got one e-mail with one Beta code. It mentioned the beta account will get one starter, but nothing about additional boosters. Am I missing an e-mail? Or did I get the wrong e-mail? Wanting to make sure my expectations are correctly set based on what I'm inferring from your post.

If you had a Grand King, you should've received three additional codes per valid tier under:
Codes for 30 boosters to give to your friends (these are part of the Guildmaster, Grand King and above tier rewards)

I should clarify that this is for the original KS/PayPal backing, not the code(s) they just sent out.

majin
05-20-2014, 07:44 AM
they can't just give out free stuffs now because it will devalue all the cards further. unlike hearthstone and other ccgs, the cards there have no value. the cards here have value and can be traded for plat / gold once trading and AH came out.

i agree that people shouldn't invite others now using the free beta keys but the move is because there are still people asking for a beta key even though they know the current state of the game.

heck, people are even buying beta keys just to get into the game. those are the people that cze is targeting with all the newly released beta keys (IMHO)

please don't ask CZE for free stuff to come with the keys as it will not be good for the economy.

what i suggest is they create a 'newbie package' like

$50 - modified slacker backer



1 Starter Deck (in addition to your free Starter Deck at account creation)
25 Set 1 Booster Packs
1 months of VIP Program (1 instead of 2 that SBs get)


this will be enough to get those interested to start on their feet and it will not devalue the old slacker backers because they won't get



HEX MMO TCG alpha invite
1 months of VIP Program
Princess Cory Promo Card (http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/PrincessCory_Gear_Web.png)
Chest’O HEX Promo Card (http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ChestOHex_Gear_Web.png)
Digital Art Book “The Art of HEX” in PDF format

hexnaes
05-20-2014, 07:49 AM
heck, people are even buying beta keys just to get into the game. those are the people that cze is targeting with all the newly released beta keys (IMHO)


Curious, where are you seeing this? I don't see any completed listings on ebay for Hex beta keys, do you have anything that verifies a key was sold?

zadies
05-20-2014, 07:51 AM
The fact is that they really have no reason to. People were asking for beta keys to give to friends... if their friends are actually asking them for a beta key the friends know what they are getting into. This key is not to give to a random person on the street but someone who actually knows what they are getting into otherwise they would have given everyone a link to submit an email address and we will send that person a key thus giving everyone infinite keys.

EntropyBall
05-20-2014, 07:53 AM
If they have the tech for it, giving players an untradeable booster or 2, with cards that are untradable and can't be disenchanted, could be a good way to start. I'd love if everyone got a free draft to start, like HS arena, but with tradable stuff and free accounts, I think that would be abused. Keeping the card market valuations stable is very important to Hex.

Pheelon
05-20-2014, 07:54 AM
they can't just give out free stuffs now because it will devalue all the cards further. unlike hearthstone and other ccgs, the cards there have no value. the cards here have value and can be traded for plat / gold once trading and AH came out.

i agree that people shouldn't invite others now using the free beta keys but the move is because there are still people asking for a beta key even though they know the current state of the game.

heck, people are even buying beta keys just to get into the game. those are the people that cze is targeting with all the newly released beta keys (IMHO)

please don't ask CZE for free stuff to come with the keys as it will not be good for the economy.

what i suggest is they create a 'newbie package' like

$50 - modified slacker backer



1 Starter Deck (in addition to your free Starter Deck at account creation)
25 Set 1 Booster Packs
1 months of VIP Program (1 instead of 2 that SBs get)


this will be enough to get those interested to start on their feet and it will not devalue the old slacker backers because they won't get



HEX MMO TCG alpha invite
1 months of VIP Program
Princess Cory Promo Card (http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/PrincessCory_Gear_Web.png)
Chest’O HEX Promo Card (http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ChestOHex_Gear_Web.png)
Digital Art Book “The Art of HEX” in PDF format


If they do a Neebie package I would do something like this:

30-35$

2 Draft Tickets
9 packs
1 month VIP

its about 1-6 $ below retail Value so a good price and not really undercutting anything.
If its a concern that everyone would just buy these instead of plat then only offer them once per account or similar.

maniza
05-20-2014, 08:16 AM
Imagine that you're a new player who has just received a beta key from somewhere. Unlike most people posting here, you have no emotional attachment to Hex. You're willing to spend some money on the game, but need to be convinced that it's a better use of your gaming budget than all those other games.

You download the client and logon for the first time. What can you do before you spend money, to help convince you that you'll be getting value for your money? Currently, the answer is ... not much. You can play other people using your starter. That's it. You can't try out Limited play. You can't start deckbuilding.

Eventually, this won't be a problem because of PvE. But until then, it is a big problem which may prevent the game from taking off. Take a look at what Hearthstone offers new players before it asks them to spend a dime. You get some free packs, in-game currency, a free Limited play ticket, and a whole bunch of free cards (basic cards) to start deckbuilding with.

Being this generous with Hex is tricky because things are tradeable. However, for now you still can't make unlimited free accounts because you need a beta key for each account. Additionally, I don't think adding free product to the economy will devalue things that much, since set 1 will very likely already have very little value due to all the KS rewards. So I think just as CZE is being very generous to existing players (offering compensation significantly in excess of the value actually lost), they can and should be generous to new players who are deciding whether it's worth it to them to spend money or not.

What do you all think?

you are corect but i feel that at this early point of the game keys shud go to people that are atleast willing to buy some packs or platinum to play some drafts.

ossuary
05-20-2014, 08:20 AM
First rule of drugs: the first taste is always free. :)

Seriously, just give all non-backer closed beta accounts 1 non-tradeable, non-expiring draft ticket, but make the contents they select from that draft also not tradeable. That will prevent any (noticeable) devaluation of the Set 1 cards, but will still give these new players coming in that all-important first taste. Then, they're hooked! :)

majin
05-20-2014, 08:36 AM
Curious, where are you seeing this? I don't see any completed listings on ebay for Hex beta keys, do you have anything that verifies a key was sold?

yes but i don't want to post it here as i don't want to make this well known as there will probably a lot of backers wanting to sell their keys to get more plats in game

frychikn
05-20-2014, 08:38 AM
heres my question, is pve realistically coming out any time soon? you would think we would know and see a lot more about something thats "almost out".

i dont like to assume people are liars, but it really feels like they are actually behind on pve and trying their best to rush it to completion.

Athravan
05-20-2014, 08:40 AM
The invites are simply too soon to help the game take off. It really needs PvE to do that - PvE is going to be the thing that attracts the largest amount of players, especially those who are completely new to tcgs.

Unless people are willing to dump money into the game right now it's quite pointless them having a beta key. I'm not saying don't issue beta keys, by all means I'm perfectly happy to have more people in the game, but I don't think a single draft ticket is going to make a difference. Those with the patience and desire to play the game in its current state are probably those who would be willing to pay anyway. The current draft experience is not always good either, it may not exactly be the best intro to the game right now.

I love this game so much and I have confidence for how amazing it will be when it's finally finished, but I honestly wouldn't recommend it to friends until it's done, even if they did give out a free draft ticket with a beta code (which would also make existing accounts use up the beta keys offered through promotions, to do a draft and then trade themselves the stuff from it.)

ossuary
05-20-2014, 08:41 AM
Hint: new stuff is coming really soon. They wouldn't be handing out extra codes unless they were nearly ready for more stuff to go in. Also, they specifically asked for people to only give the codes to people who are already interested, not just random dudes off the street. These are friend codes!

Gulbech
05-20-2014, 08:55 AM
Just get trading or AH up and running, and i would gladly give my 500+ spare common away to different people so they can make more fun decks.

Dichdude
05-20-2014, 09:11 AM
Hint: new stuff is coming really soon. They wouldn't be handing out extra codes unless they were nearly ready for more stuff to go in. Also, they specifically asked for people to only give the codes to people who are already interested, not just random dudes off the street. These are friend codes!

Ok, the auction house is coming...that means diddly squat to a new player coming into the game as there is no game for them to play without spending relatively large amounts of many for a game thats advertised as a FTP game.

As for an ETA for the PvE stuff....6 months would be a fair guess I suppose; the AI can't even finish a game at the moment.

The economy is screwed for set one with all the KS packs floating around and to be honest this game needs new active players more than worrying about the value of set one cards IMO.

The game is not in a premium state but it is priced at with a premium model so something needs to give to get new players to stay more than 1 hour and leave muttering 'rip off' going to another game never to come back.

Gwaer
05-20-2014, 09:16 AM
Ok, the auction house is coming...that means diddly squat to a new player coming into the game as there is no game for them to play without spending relatively large amounts of many for a game thats advertised as a FTP game.

As for an ETA for the PvE stuff....6 months would be a fair guess I suppose; the AI can't even finish a game at the moment.

The economy is screwed for set one with all the KS packs floating around and to be honest this game needs new active players more than worrying about the value of set one cards IMO.

The game is not in a premium state but it is priced at with a premium model so something needs to give to get new players to stay more than 1 hour and leave muttering 'rip off' going to another game never to come back.

How do you reconcile those two statements I bolded? One corrects for the other, set 1 value being so low from KS packs means once the AH is up new players won't have to spend lots of money for cards.

Xenavire
05-20-2014, 09:17 AM
Ok, the auction house is coming...that means diddly squat to a new player coming into the game as there is no game for them to play without spending relatively large amounts of many for a game thats advertised as a FTP game.

As for an ETA for the PvE stuff....6 months would be a fair guess I suppose; the AI can't even finish a game at the moment.

The economy is screwed for set one with all the KS packs floating around and to be honest this game needs new active players more than worrying about the value of set one cards IMO.

The game is not in a premium state but it is priced at with a premium model so something needs to give to get new players to stay more than 1 hour and leave muttering 'rip off' going to another game never to come back.

AH comes with trading - it would be trivial to get commons for a bunch of casual games to fill the weeks until PvE comes out.

Dichdude
05-20-2014, 09:37 AM
How do you reconcile those two statements I bolded? One corrects for the other, set 1 value being so low from KS packs means once the AH is up new players won't have to spend lots of money for cards.


"without spending relatively large amounts" Was in context of playing actual drafts which cost 3 packs and 100 plat $7....

"The economy is screwed for set one with all the KS packs floating around" I stand by this unless we get a few 100,00 new ACTIVE players in the game and they are not going to get that unless CZE give them something to do in game other than play VS the AI with a starter deck.

Poetic
05-20-2014, 09:42 AM
What TCGs do you know of that give you free stuff to start out other than a basic starter deck?

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 09:47 AM
What TCGs do you know of that give you free stuff to start out other than a basic starter deck?

Well in F2P TCGs theres ways to earn these cards, there currently aren't any ways to do so in hex.

Poetic
05-20-2014, 09:48 AM
The free to play portion isn't in yet unfortunately. We only have access to the pay stuff.

Xenavire
05-20-2014, 09:49 AM
What TCGs do you know of that give you free stuff to start out other than a basic starter deck?

I don't know any TCG's that give out free stuff to new players. I do know almost every dTCG gives a starter pack of some kind, but most do not have trading. Hex having free stuff+trading is almost unprecedented.

Dichdude
05-20-2014, 09:50 AM
The free to play portion isn't in yet unfortunately. We only have access to the pay stuff.

Then they need to stop advertising it as a F2P game or the general public are only going to give it a bad name!

Poetic
05-20-2014, 09:51 AM
The starters that hex gives can't be traded I think so they aren't giving away tradeable stuff.

Grendelkr1
05-20-2014, 09:51 AM
There is a free to play aspect to the game at the moment... It's called the proving grounds. A free starter deck and the opportunity to play an AI that does everything it can to let you win, or your friends that( unless they are complete pricks) can play with a basic starter deck to allow players to get a feel for the game and what it will be like.

When starting most games whether they are TCG's, board games, or video games there is almost always an initial investment involved. When I started playing MtG back in 95 I didn't get free starter decks and or boosters to play with. I bought some cards and found some people to learn to play the game with. Hex is giving you the people to play with and a starter deck to try out. While the drafting is the most appealing aspect of the game available at this point it's not the only option to play.

As a slacker backer (Didn't learn of Hex until the Kickstarter had ended) I made a $50 investment and at this point I've received a free starter pack and 25 boosters. Any person has the ability to get the same right now, or spend less on boosters if they wish.

BKCshah
05-20-2014, 09:53 AM
Exactly. I wouldn't have any friends who didn't have an understanding of TCGs or drafting use the program. First impressions are lasting impressions. This one leaves an awful impression if you aren't invested or understanding of the process/project.

Poetic
05-20-2014, 09:55 AM
And that's why a lot of us thought giving out keys this early wasn't the best idea. They really need pve in.

They can't give away free stuff for pvp. It'll never be enough for the casual players and will hurt the overall value.

nicosharp
05-20-2014, 09:56 AM
Everyday the introductory PvE is not in the game, is another day of potentially losing another gamer.

The game is very fun, but to someone new there is no substance. That is why the Beta keys were provided with information to basically handhold your friends through the game at first.

Cory, we need trading. That is the best way we can share this game experience currently without losing future HexHeads. Please implement it this week if possible. <3

Gwaer
05-20-2014, 09:57 AM
...Drafts won't cost 7 dollars once you can buy packs on the AH, since set 1 prices will be so low. They'll cost more like 4 bucks for a little while at least.

Also, this game isn't being advertised to the general public at all. So you don't have to worry about the f2p advertisement thing.

rjselzler
05-20-2014, 10:00 AM
What TCGs do you know of that give you free stuff to start out other than a basic starter deck?

MtG did (does?) a free pack-battle-style event in the summer. I only went once, because of the Free-to-Stank principle: as cost of entry lowers, so does the general personal hygiene of the gaming group. Playing for four hours in the back of a sweltering gaming shop with a gaggle of unwashed gamers is not worth two or three packs, IMO. :D

I think this whole conversation will be moot one trading is in; who doesn't have a more experienced friend who got them into whatever TCG was their first and dumped play sets of staple commons on them. The shop I started playing Magic in--in 199--had a "give a card, take a card" box. It was filled with all kinds of bulk commons/uncommons and even a few rares (I found a Shivan Dragon in there that someone had generously left; for a 12 year old that was pure gold!). This community has demonstrated that we're more than happy to give away stuff to guildies or just generally new players. I know I would. Surely, there are guilds who will use this as a recruitment mechanism; it's just good PR.

Slightly off topic: it would be nice to have a guild vault feature where players could line the "armory" of the guild and get some kind of guild rep that they could spend on cards in the vault. Sort of a "give a card, take a card" for the digital, MMO environment. I imagine robust trade settings (DKP-style?), but even a simple WoW-style guild bank would be good.

Gwaer
05-20-2014, 10:03 AM
I was totally feeling it until you said DKP, then I instantly retroactively disagreed with everything you said.
Thus is the power of DKP.

Dynimix
05-20-2014, 10:04 AM
I think there is some sore of guild vault plan in place if I am not mistaken.

rjselzler
05-20-2014, 10:05 AM
I was totally feeling it until you said DKP, then I instantly retroactively disagreed with everything you said.
Thus is the power of DKP.

:D

To be fair, I haven't had any involvement with that system since PoP EQ, so I definitely reserve the right to be ignorant or uninformed...

Xexist
05-20-2014, 10:05 AM
These beta key invites are WAY too soon.

There's no chance I would invite any friends to play this game in its current state. It would be a waste of their money if they bought any plat.

I've tried to play three tournaments since closed beta, and all three have had problems. The last tournament I tried to play yesterday, and after winning the first round the tournament froze while in the lobby. I waited for 1.5 hours in that lobby waiting for the next round. I was extremely frustrated.

This game is not ready for new players that will possibly been extremely turned off of Hex if they experience the same problems I've been experiencing the past couple weeks.

Sorry if this post was negative, but I really want this game to succeed. Inviting people to a buggy game with very little to do outside of buying plat/packs and playing in buggy tournaments is not a good way to grow customers.

Sorry bro Ive drafted about 50 times and only 2 tickets I needed.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 10:05 AM
They need to give new players a way to play it for free.

I don't think cze would make a huge profit if players earned like 5 plat for a win against a player. It would require 20 wins for 1 booster pack.

It's not even progress but close to no progress is better than no progress.

Dichdude
05-20-2014, 10:06 AM
Come on now guys...........................


Hex is advertised as a F2P game. This model has been around for a while now and there is certain expectations surrounding this model which this game does not even come close to. I am sure once ALL the content is in the game there will be no issue but to be honest if this content is in by Christmas I will be pleasantly surprised. In the mean time the good name of Hex tanks to where it will not recover and it will be like any other gameforge game.

rjselzler
05-20-2014, 10:07 AM
I think there is some sore of guild vault plan in place if I am not mistaken.

I hope so. I know that my guild will be pretty much friends and family, so the vault will probably just be wide open. We've done that in every MMO with the same dozen or so people for the last decade and it's been fine. I imagine Hex will be similar for us. Only a few players in the guild will be competitively-minded enough to care.

I'm sure the larger guilds will, by necessity, need more robust settings.

zadies
05-20-2014, 10:08 AM
The beta is not advertised as free to play the finished product is advertised as having a free to play aspect. If you are given a beta key and YOU are fully aware of what the key grants access to currently. It is YOUR responsibility to give it to someone who will enjoy it for what is currently available in the game which is the p2p aspect of it. That is why you are only given a single key. If it was for general consuption they would not be letting current players be the ones to decide who is getting into the CLOSED beta they would move to OPEN beta.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 10:10 AM
The beta is not advertised as free to play the finished product is advertised as having a free to play aspect.

You obviously dont know how most people work.

tell me how would it hurt cze to grant just a LITTLE step towards boosters. Even if 1 booster took like 3-5 days. I can earn 1 booster in 1 day in Hearthstone, people are going to compare no matter how stupid the comparison

nicosharp
05-20-2014, 10:12 AM
Sorry bro Ive drafted about 50 times and only 2 tickets I needed.
That is still $48 in plat then. Just saying. People trying a product will be reluctant to invest. Hard for them to get a taste off a starter deck with no trade enabled. Of course, its our job to explain, but we are 1 or 2 features away from breaking through these barriers and turn-offs.

rjselzler
05-20-2014, 10:12 AM
You obviously dont know how most people work.

tell me how would it hurt cze to grant just a LITTLE step towards boosters. Even if 1 booster took like 3-5 days. I can earn 1 booster in 1 day in Hearthstone, people are going to compare no matter how stupid the comparison

Gameforge surveys?

*ducks and runs*

zadies
05-20-2014, 10:14 AM
Oh I know how people work, but see the fact that they are not opening the doors wide and saying anyone who applied for a beta key before this date is getting one it is quite clear they want to community to be SELECTIVE of who they provide thier key to. Going and giving the key to someone who expects a fully f2p experince at this point just shows that YOU have no common sense.

rjselzler
05-20-2014, 10:15 AM
That is still $48 in plat then. Just saying. People trying a product will be reluctant to invest. Hard for them to get a taste off a starter deck with no trade enabled. Of course, its our job to explain, but we are 1 or 2 features away from breaking through these barriers and turn-offs.

Yeah, I won't be giving away my friend key. Well, I guess I technically did, since I used it to set up an alt account for my wife, if she ever decides to play. I wouldn't give it to a friend as advertisement at this point, though. Once AH is in and we are open beta status, then the evangelism starts. ;)

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 10:16 AM
Oh I know how people work, but see the fact that they are not opening the doors wide and saying anyone who applied for a beta key before this date is getting one it is quite clear they want to community to be SELECTIVE of who they provide thier key to. Going and giving the key to someone who expects a fully f2p experince at this point just shows that YOU have no common sense.

You are always assuming the best scenario, that people are going to be reasonable and that people are forgiving. Both is not the case.

Grendelkr1
05-20-2014, 10:19 AM
This community has demonstrated that we're more than happy to give away stuff to guildies or just generally new players. .

While it is a nice gesture and I'm sure many of us are willing to dump a bunch of commons, uncommons, and maybe some rares on the influx of new players, I personally wouldn't want them. Most of the appeal of a TCG ( at least to me ) is the collection part of it. That having been said the first 20 or 30 packs of a set are always the best packs. I need every card coming out of them. I am completely invested in every card in those packs. Eventually I realize I no longer need those commons and just look at the uncommons and rares. Around pack 50 all I look at is the rare/legendary. The packs no longer hold the same level of anticipation.

I guess my point is that while it is a wonderful sentiment (the willingness to give and share what we already have)... Be cautious not to steal the magic that is generated in the opening of those first few packs.

fido_one
05-20-2014, 10:22 AM
Depending where they are with non-tradable entities (they did confirm some time ago that the starter pack on release will have non-tradable cards, right? or am I riding off of someone else's conjecture?), I'm all for people that receive a beta key receive an [existing] starter containing non-tradable cards.

I don't think that would fly with open beta, they need to have the PvE experience cooked well enough that it'll draw people in before they drop 10+ USD on an ecosystem, that as they noted, is REALLY hard to get into if you're new.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 10:30 AM
Why isn't anyone picking up on my 5plat/win against human suggestion? :/

It would take about 6 hours to even get one booster of continuous playing AND winning. Or maybe introduce dailywins like in HS until there's another ecosystem/PvE.

EntropyBall
05-20-2014, 10:31 AM
That is still $48 in plat then. Just saying. People trying a product will be reluctant to invest. Hard for them to get a taste off a starter deck with no trade enabled. Of course, its our job to explain, but we are 1 or 2 features away from breaking through these barriers and turn-offs.

You're misunderstanding this I think. He was saying only 2 support tickets out of 50 drafts.

EntropyBall
05-20-2014, 10:33 AM
Why isn't anyone picking up on my 5plat/win against human suggestion? :/

It would take about 6 hours to even get one booster of continuous playing AND winning. Or maybe introduce dailywins like in HS until there's another ecosystem/PvE.

This has been suggested before in other threads. Giving away their currency devalues every card. Plat is money, straight up. 1 plat = $0.01. Once you put plat into the system without money going in, 100 plat becomes $0.99, then 0.98, etc. It devalues everyone's collection, and puts the collectible aspect of the game at risk. It also opens up an opportunity for abuse by botting.

Additionally (and perhaps worse), this gives the illusion that the PVP portion of the game is F2P. It is not. It is not intended to be. If PVP starts looking like its F2P, then people will be complaining that "they can't reasonably earn cards fast enough" and the game will be branded Pay 2 Win.

nicosharp
05-20-2014, 10:34 AM
Why isn't anyone picking up on my 5plat/win against human suggestion? :/

It would take about 6 hours to even get one booster of continuous playing AND winning. Or maybe introduce dailywins like in HS until there's another ecosystem/PvE.
The problem with this is they do not want any artificial form of creating plat.
This is why they do not have bonus packages of plat if you spend more money initially on gameforge.

The only ways plat can be earned that we know of will be:
Auction House exchange rate for Gold (probably with a small % convenience fee going to CZE)
Gameforge sponsorship links (shady at best)
Point reward systems from credit cards and/or web offerings (my friend mentioned his Bing Rewards search engine credits worked)
Buying them directly from within Hex client.


You're misunderstanding this I think. He was saying only 2 support tickets out of 50 drafts.
True - yet point made still valid.

Grendelkr1
05-20-2014, 10:35 AM
Why isn't anyone picking up on my 5plat/win against human suggestion? :/

It would take about 6 hours to even get one booster of continuous playing AND winning. Or maybe introduce dailywins like in HS until there's another ecosystem/PvE.

While you intend this for the newer players coming in... it can effectively remove the only income CZE has from another portion of the player base.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 10:37 AM
How about giving gold for each win and give the boosters a REALLY high goldbuy price?

And if that's not enough, make these super expensive boosters (thinking about....40.000 gold, so 2 times FIRST place would net you 1 extra booster) have untradable cards/make them untradable.


While you intend this for the newer players coming in... it can effectively remove the only income CZE has from another portion of the player base.


assuming you cannot edit numbers, yes. I think making people able to earn boosters by free means if they invest TONS of time will make them just buy them for 2 bucks.

hex_colin
05-20-2014, 10:41 AM
How about giving gold for each win and give the boosters a REALLY high goldbuy price?

And if that's not enough, make these super expensive boosters (thinking about....40.000 gold, so 2 times FIRST place would net you 1 extra booster) have untradable cards/make them untradable.

I'm betting the problem with all of the "make them untraceable" suggestions are that they'd have to create/customize functionality just to do that (perhaps even just for a small period of time) and they just don't have the bandwidth to do anything outside what they've already promised.

Does anyone want to wait another 2 weeks for the AH so that they can implement code that makes the contents of a small subset of the boosters untradable? [as a hypothetical situation]

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 10:45 AM
I'm betting the problem with all of the "make them untraceable" suggestions are that they'd have to create/customize functionality just to do that (perhaps even just for a small period of time) and they just don't have the bandwidth to do anything outside what they've already promised.

Does anyone want to wait another 2 weeks for the AH so that they can implement code that makes the contents of a small subset of the boosters untradable? [as a hypothetical situation]

Im still all for my real suggestion, just give out gold, make boosters/decks buyable for gold and adjust the price so that u don't make a profit loss. Remember that many f2p games operate like this. Numbers are ALWAYS adjustable, especially in a closed beta people won't go on a shitstorm if cze rises the gold-price of a booster.

Wolfe
05-20-2014, 10:52 AM
I think most of the people that would want to play the game at this stage would also love to jump on the Slacker Backer if they had the chance. But $50 still gets you 20 packs and 10 draft vouchers, which will probably see you most of the way through 10 drafts. I've jumped into many TCGs by buying a box or two.

Having said that, I wouldn't be opposed to something like a free draft voucher for "special" early beta key accounts. I don't think the abuse by our largely KS community would be that serious. Probably the best bet is just to not invite our F2P/PVE friends, but rather our standard TCG/gamer friends at this stage.

Xenavire
05-20-2014, 10:52 AM
Im still all for my real suggestion, just give out gold, make boosters/decks buyable for gold and adjust the price so that u don't make a profit loss. Remember that many f2p games operate like this. Numbers are ALWAYS adjustable, especially in a closed beta people won't go on a shitstorm if cze rises the gold-price of a booster.

No, just no. The only reason it works in other F2P games is because they can't trade on an AH in 'real' currency.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 10:56 AM
Here's my numbers.

-A booster would cost 40.000 gold (2 single elimination draft first place=1 extra booster)
-The exchange rate for plat to gold would be 1:400 (!)
-A game takes roughly 15-20 minutes, make them earn 200 gold a loss if the game takes at least 10 minutes, a win earns them 400 gold. that's 1200 gold in 1 hour, it would take a person about 40 hours AT LEAST (highly unlikely unless they invest, which they will want to, trust me I know the feel having only opened 3 boosters on my warrior tier) to even earn 1 booster, 20 hours to earn 1 draft ticket provided they spent 120 (!) hours of grinding boosters beforehand. That's more than 3 weeks of "work" so that not even bots would be profitable for the electricity cost.
-Games against friends would earn half (remember, botting would not even cover electricity cost)

Remember that at a 1:400 exchange rate the noumbers would be EASILY adjustable. Also people like high noumbers when it comes to free stuff, makes the plat seem like a good deal once they check how much it costs to speed up the process :P

Could also make a loss only give 1/4th of a win and boost wins accordingly so that people don't just give up after 10 mins.

That's the thing about noumbers, you can adjust them accordingly, if you start off at a very very low time:value ratio then you can adjust the noumbers all you want without looking like a greedy company.

I''ve come up with these noumbers in like 5 minutes, could also make them even lower to not devalue free cards. As said you can always be generous later and soften it up a little. Remember that people would take AGES to even bring 1 pack into the auction house. Free players would use these packs to either draft or just open them to win games more consistently. Could even halve the number if neccesary just to give even the slightest bit of progression.

This would probably not even impact the economy at all unless Cze sticks to set1 for the next two years.

A f2p player could NEVER build a full deck out of boosters unless he programs a bot and is willing to pay quadrupple the price in electricity costs.

Hearthstone gives you 1 booster every 2-3(!) days if you play regularly just for the dailys (I know they are not tradable, this is why I'd set 1 booster waaay higher in hex) and the players there take AAAAGES to even become close to competitive to people who spent as little as 20 bucks into the game.

We're in 2014, people want incentives to play, even if the incentive is very little, yes fun is one but people also love to "earn" stuff while playing.

Even giving out just 100gold/win against a player would help.

Zophie
05-20-2014, 11:04 AM
I gave the beta key to one of my friends who is new to TCGs, and I just play against them with my starter decks. Not a big deal right now, especially when they're still learning. Plus they can play against AI, it's buggy sometimes but it does work. When trading comes out I'll probably give them a bunch of my extra cards to help build up their collection as well. This is enough for them to get a good taste of the game before PVE is launched.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 11:32 AM
People in ingame chat are already complaining, other people are saying the usual stuff:

How is CZE supposed to earn money
If you don't want to pay find another game


It's like in every dying game EVER.

Do Fans NEVER learn?

frychikn
05-20-2014, 11:52 AM
People in ingame chat are already complaining, other people are saying the usual stuff:

How is CZE supposed to earn money
If you don't want to pay find another game


It's like in every dying game EVER.

Do Fans NEVER learn?

they really dont.

rational thinking gets thrown out the window so easily with fanboyism.

EntropyBall
05-20-2014, 11:52 AM
Here's my numbers.

-A booster would cost 40.000 gold (2 single elimination draft first place=1 extra booster)
-The exchange rate for plat to gold would be 1:400 (!)
-A game takes roughly 15-20 minutes, make them earn 200 gold a loss if the game takes at least 10 minutes, a win earns them 400 gold. that's 1200 gold in 1 hour, it would take a person about 40 hours AT LEAST (highly unlikely unless they invest, which they will want to, trust me I know the feel having only opened 3 boosters on my warrior tier) to even earn 1 booster, 20 hours to earn 1 draft ticket provided they spent 120 (!) hours of grinding boosters beforehand. That's more than 3 weeks of "work" so that not even bots would be profitable for the electricity cost.
-Games against friends would earn half (remember, botting would not even cover electricity cost)

Remember that at a 1:400 exchange rate the noumbers would be EASILY adjustable. Also people like high noumbers when it comes to free stuff, makes the plat seem like a good deal once they check how much it costs to speed up the process :P

Could also make a loss only give 1/4th of a win and boost wins accordingly so that people don't just give up after 10 mins.

That's the thing about noumbers, you can adjust them accordingly, if you start off at a very very low time:value ratio then you can adjust the noumbers all you want without looking like a greedy company.

I''ve come up with these noumbers in like 5 minutes, could also make them even lower to not devalue free cards. As said you can always be generous later and soften it up a little. Remember that people would take AGES to even bring 1 pack into the auction house. Free players would use these packs to either draft or just open them to win games more consistently. Could even halve the number if neccesary just to give even the slightest bit of progression.

This would probably not even impact the economy at all unless Cze sticks to set1 for the next two years.

A f2p player could NEVER build a full deck out of boosters unless he programs a bot and is willing to pay quadrupple the price in electricity costs.

Hearthstone gives you 1 booster every 2-3(!) days if you play regularly just for the dailys (I know they are not tradable, this is why I'd set 1 booster waaay higher in hex) and the players there take AAAAGES to even become close to competitive to people who spent as little as 20 bucks into the game.

We're in 2014, people want incentives to play, even if the incentive is very little, yes fun is one but people also love to "earn" stuff while playing.

Even giving out just 100gold/win against a player would help.

You just completely ignored my 2nd point last time I addressed this, so here it is again:
Additionally (and perhaps worse), this gives the illusion that the PVP portion of the game is F2P. It is not. It is not intended to be. If PVP starts looking like its F2P, then people will be complaining that "they can't reasonably earn cards fast enough" and the game will be branded Pay 2 Win.

The gold system you are proposing is functionally the same as letting people earn plat at a worse rate than what you proposed before. When CZE fixes a price of a pack in gold and in plat, they are fixing an exchange rate between the two currencies. Even ignoring the devaluing of plat, your system is not going to make people happy. Instead of complaining about no way to earn PVP cards, they will be complaining that it is unreasonably slow. You even point out that its unreasonably slow. CZE has been clear that PVP is not F2P. Anyone inviting new players in to the game should also make that very clear.

Xexist
05-20-2014, 11:56 AM
That is still $48 in plat then. Just saying. People trying a product will be reluctant to invest. Hard for them to get a taste off a starter deck with no trade enabled. Of course, its our job to explain, but we are 1 or 2 features away from breaking through these barriers and turn-offs.

That had nothing to do with what I posted? He was complaining that tourneys dont work and they are seriously bugged. I was just saying he must have bad luck or something because Ive played a ton and had very few fail.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 12:08 PM
You just completely ignored my 2nd point last time I addressed this, so here it is again:
Additionally (and perhaps worse), this gives the illusion that the PVP portion of the game is F2P. It is not. It is not intended to be. If PVP starts looking like its F2P, then people will be complaining that "they can't reasonably earn cards fast enough" and the game will be branded Pay 2 Win.

The gold system you are proposing is functionally the same as letting people earn plat at a worse rate than what you proposed before. When CZE fixes a price of a pack in gold and in plat, they are fixing an exchange rate between the two currencies. Even ignoring the devaluing of plat, your system is not going to make people happy. Instead of complaining about no way to earn PVP cards, they will be complaining that it is unreasonably slow. You even point out that its unreasonably slow. CZE has been clear that PVP is not F2P. Anyone inviting new players in to the game should also make that very clear.

I point out that my method is unreasonably slow because I made it in 5(!) minutes, CZE has an economist hired, remember the video? He cannot figure out a system similar to Riot/League points?

and what would you rather have, people that invested time into this game and earned stuff and won't easily let go of it or people that invested time into this game, got nothing out of it and can leave without looking behind. Tell me.

earning heros in league is absolutely unreasonably slow, people complain yes, but the majority will defend that it's a f2p game, you can look into some forums, try to argue that the gain is way to slow and then be laughed at.

Of course a suggested model like mine would be shredded apart but that's why it's closed beta, you could adjust it easily.

nicosharp
05-20-2014, 12:11 PM
That had nothing to do with what I posted? He was complaining that tourneys dont work and they are seriously bugged. I was just saying he must have bad luck or something because Ive played a ton and had very few fail.

Yes Xexist. Entropy pointed that out.

Dynimix
05-20-2014, 12:15 PM
I gave the beta key to one of my friends who is new to TCGs, and I just play against them with my starter decks.

I am doing the same with my buddies and the games turn out really close.

EntropyBall
05-20-2014, 12:16 PM
I point out that my method is unreasonably slow because I made it in 5(!) minutes, CZE has an economist hired, remember the video? He cannot figure out a system similar to Riot/League points?

and what would you rather have, people that invested time into this game and earned stuff and won't easily let go of it or people that invested time into this game, got nothing out of it and can leave without looking behind. Tell me.

earning heros in league is absolutely unreasonably slow, people complain yes, but the majority will defend that it's a f2p game, you can look into some forums, try to argue that the gain is way to slow and then be laughed at.

You were using the slowness of your method as a reason it should be implemented. You can't turn around and say, "well, they can make it faster" after citing its slowness as a benefit. And you are routinely ignoring the fact that they don't intend for PVP to be F2P. They have been very clear about this from step one.

There are a number of reasons you can't compare LoL to Hex, and they have been listed on these forums many times. Quickly, no trading, get to use things you don't own, primary income is cosmetics.

Svenn
05-20-2014, 12:17 PM
People in ingame chat are already complaining, other people are saying the usual stuff:

How is CZE supposed to earn money
If you don't want to pay find another game


It's like in every dying game EVER.

Do Fans NEVER learn?
Anyone complaining right now is an idiot. The game isn't finished. Trading isn't even in yet. The whole f2p portion isn't in.

Also, this game is attempting to do what other games do not... create a real world value for the items in the economy. Ever notice how most economies in MMOs fall to pieces rather quickly? They can't do that, because half the point of this game is the value in the cards themselves. Part of why people play card games is for the investment aspect of it. That's something completely different than a f2p MMO.

zadies
05-20-2014, 12:25 PM
Also there should only be about 1k people in the game who should not know what to expect and those would be the ones that got keys from esl. The keys that the closed beta people would have been given to give to their friends should have been given with a clear set of expectations. If your invited to a private club by a member of said club and you don't know what to expect from the club before you arrive it is not the clubs fault it is the fault of the person that gave you the invitation.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 12:26 PM
And you are routinely ignoring the fact that they don't intend for PVP to be F2P.

Basically It's been suggested that f2p players can even dig into PvP by playing enough PvE.
Playtime is playtime, I'd rather have the people spend their time on a part of the game that they enjoy while keeping other players enjoyed (a live PvP community is a long living game!) rather than semi-afking PvE.

People gave a reasoning of devalueing the cards, how are the cards not devalued by PvE-earned gold/rewards later on then?

nicosharp
05-20-2014, 12:30 PM
People gave a reasoning of devalueing the cards, how are the cards not devalued by PvE-earned gold/rewards later on then?

It's not devaluing cards. It's devaluing Platinum. I think the only decent suggestion is have PvP arenas that earn players gold. If they want then the gold can be used to buy Platinum. There could be low stakes PvP Arenas, and No-limit PvP Arenas where you wager what you want to bet and the winner takes all.

Svenn
05-20-2014, 12:31 PM
People gave a reasoning of devalueing the cards, how are the cards not devalued by PvE-earned gold/rewards later on then?
Because the only way a PvP card can enter the economy is through a purchase. The PvE gold/rewards that are being traded for PvP stuff are being traded to players who paid for those things in the first place. PvP cards are not devalued because no new cards are entering the economy due to PvE.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 12:38 PM
It's not devaluing cards. It's devaluing Platinum. I think the only decent suggestion is have PvP arenas that earn players gold. If they want then the gold can be used to buy Platinum. There could be low stakes PvP Arenas, and No-limit PvP Arenas where you wager what you want to bet and the winner takes all.

@Nicosharp, if you don't want to devalue platinum then never allow Gold to be exchanged. I don't get that argument, the only thing currently that keeps players from devaluating platinum more is basically the fact that they HAVE to play PvE later to earn ingame cash.

This will only mean that players will choose to spend their time in PvE instead of PvP, meaning less enemies for us paying customers.

Why not give them free choice in which way they want to earn gold? I hope you know that "forced" f2p does more damage than it does good for a game. It's still a game, people want to have fun. If an only PvP player (which is THAT type of person that will keep this game afloat) decides that he doesnt like PvE and decides that he doesn't want to pay as much then he'll just leave for the competitors that offer him PvP without having to pay up as much as hex.

nicosharp
05-20-2014, 12:41 PM
@Nicosharp, if you don't want to devalue platinum then never allow Gold to be exchanged. I don't get that argument, the only thing currently that keeps players from devaluating platinum more is basically the fact that they HAVE to play PvE later to earn ingame cash.

This will only mean that players will choose to spend their time in PvE instead of PvP, meaning less enemies for us paying customers.

Why not give them free choice in which way they want to earn gold? I hope you know that "forced" f2p does more damage than it does good for a game. It's still a game, people want to have fun. If an only PvP player (which is THAT type of person that will keep this game afloat) decides that he doesnt like PvE and decides that he doesn't want to pay as much then he'll just leave for the competitors that offer him PvP without having to pay up as much as hex.
Gold being exchanged for Platinum that people pay money for does not devalue Platinum, it devalues Gold. I am also supportive of some sort of reward system for certain PvP play. Just in the form of Gold, nothing else.

zadies
05-20-2014, 12:45 PM
The fact is that people who want a free to play pvp experience have a number of CCGs to pick from. You can not have a TCG where cards maintain a value and give those specific cards away for free. Allowing someone to trade currency for something that is given away for free is the market deciding the value of someone's time not the company doing so and thus does not devalue the PVP cards or currency because they are purchased for the same cost by the person who traded for the f2p element of the game and were not given to the f2p player by the company.

frychikn
05-20-2014, 12:48 PM
Gold being exchanged for Platinum that people pay money for does not devalue Platinum, it devalues Gold. I am also supportive of some sort of reward system for certain PvP play. Just in the form of Gold, nothing else.

what is this.... i dont even..........

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 12:49 PM
The fact is that people who want a free to play pvp experience have a number of CCGs to pick from. .


Welcome to my issue, they will just pick the others.

Gold is already going to be available freely, why not let people decide themselves how they want to earn it

nicosharp
05-20-2014, 12:53 PM
what is this.... i dont even..........
Simplified: Platinum will always be $1 USD = 100 Platinum. Gold valuation will be a bit more complex and variable.

wasichu
05-20-2014, 12:57 PM
I dunno I think giving a new player one free draft ticket and having the starter deck come with at least one pack will give a new guy coming in a shot at trying a draft out with buying 2 more packs giving him/her some cards after the draft to work into a playable starter deck. Even If the didn't want to draft and just open the pack they would get to experience that right off the get go.

It wouldn't hurt anything and I believe would only help people get a better starting foot in the game. I know since I didn't get my slacker backer codes in email right away all I had was the one starter deck and I felt dismal untill I got my 25 packs and started drafting.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 12:59 PM
Simplified: Platinum will always be $1 USD = 100 Platinum. Gold valuation will be a bit more complex and variable.

Since players will be already able to earn gold through free means anyways, why would it be bad to give them a choice?

Svenn
05-20-2014, 01:01 PM
Welcome to my issue, they will just pick the others.

Gold is already going to be available freely, why not let people decide themselves how they want to earn it
I posted this in the other thread but... adding gold to PvP means less incentive for PvP players to sell their PvP cards/boosters to the f2p players (higher prices for PvP cards on the auction hall) AND it means devaluing gold as there is a lot more of it flowing into the system (even higher prices for PvP cards on the auction hall in terms of gold).

I don't have a problem with giving gold for PvP necessarily, but it's not as simple as "give gold for PvP and everything is great!"

nicosharp
05-20-2014, 01:03 PM
Since players will be already able to earn gold through free means anyways, why would it be bad to give them a choice?
I AGREE WITH YOU... sheesh.

I have a feeling they will do this, probably not for the Proving Grounds currently available in Beta. But I bet there will be some form of reward eventually. The outcry is significant enough.

MuffLord4
05-20-2014, 01:05 PM
I posted this in the other thread but... adding gold to PvP means less incentive for PvP players to sell their PvP cards/boosters to the f2p players (higher prices for PvP cards on the auction hall) AND it means devaluing gold as there is a lot more of it flowing into the system (even higher prices for PvP cards on the auction hall in terms of gold).

I don't have a problem with giving gold for PvP necessarily, but it's not as simple as "give gold for PvP and everything is great!"

I never said it wouldn't require balancing but giving out even a small amount for their time wouldnt hurt, that's all I'm saying.


I dont want ppl to feel like wasting time in PvP.

cavench
05-20-2014, 01:07 PM
Eventually everything will be free and all we have to do is watch a 30 second commercial every 5 minute interval. Yay!

nicosharp
05-20-2014, 01:15 PM
I dont want ppl to feel like wasting time in PvP.
This is the worst thing about the culture the reward system has created. People feel like they are wasting time playing something they enjoy because they are not getting something for free.

First of all -The irony is you are playing a video game. You are wasting your time! No matter what you are doing in it.

Second - you should just be playing to enjoy yourself.

Third - I did math a long time ago and the average league of legends player is making 1-4 cents an hour playing league if you factor in the IP to RP conversion and reward they get for games played. Honestly, if you need 1-4cents per hour of your time to feel rewarded, I want to move to your third world country and live like a king.

cavench
05-20-2014, 01:55 PM
The irony is you are playing a video game. You are wasting your time! No matter what you are doing in it.

This hurts. Deeply. So my mom was right twenty years ago. And now my wife is also right twenty years later.


you should just be playing to enjoy yourself.

This now becomes difficult after realizing the cold hard fact in your first statement. :(

hex_colin
05-20-2014, 01:58 PM
First of all -The irony is you are playing a video game. You are wasting your time! No matter what you are doing in it.

I fundamentally disagree with this on every possible level. You're always gaining something for your time investment, even if it's just a little R&R.

Soul-of-Void
05-20-2014, 02:11 PM
Time spend on something you enjoy is never wasted time :D

Unhurtable
05-20-2014, 02:12 PM
This is the worst thing about the culture the reward system has created. People feel like they are wasting time playing something they enjoy because they are not getting something for free.
Its not a culture that has been created. Why play Game A if it takes 100 hours to get to the fun parts if Game B is played almost the same and only takes 10 hours to get to the fun parts? Remember games are in constant competition, all WoW and the other games did was trying to stay ahead of the curve.


First of all -The irony is you are playing a video game. You are wasting your time! No matter what you are doing in it.

Once again, its from a perspective of competition. One game can feel like a waste of time compared to another game.


Third - I did math a long time ago and the average league of legends player is making 1-4 cents an hour playing league if you factor in the IP to RP conversion and reward they get for games played. Honestly, if you need 1-4cents per hour of your time to feel rewarded, I want to move to your third world country and live like a king.

You are not factoring in the value created by the player enjoying the game. League of Legends as work (unless you are a professional player) is not well paying, but that doesn't mean that playing it doesn't create value.

Mejis
05-20-2014, 02:12 PM
I fundamentally disagree with this on every possible level. You're always gaining something for your time investment, even if it's just a little R&R.

I agree Colin.
And @Nicosharp, your second statement completely invalidates your first statement.
I play for fun, relaxation, escape, a brain-workout if playing strategy games, etc...

I don't consider any of those things time wasted.

zadies
05-20-2014, 02:21 PM
Acctually his first statement is needing a reward other then the game itself. Is the way I am reading his two statements. You should not be paid anything for playing the game.

Barkam
05-20-2014, 02:41 PM
Acctually his first statement is needing a reward other then the game itself. Is the way I am reading his two statements. You should not be paid anything for playing the game.

Hey someone gets message instead of focusing on specific words.

EntropyBall
05-20-2014, 02:41 PM
This argument has slightly changed in the last 30 posts or so. What are new players going to do with gold they earn in PVP right now? If they don't spend money, they don't even have chests to roll with it. I don't see how this is at all a solution to the "problem" of new people needing to feel like they are progressing by playing the in Proving Grounds.

nicosharp
05-20-2014, 02:42 PM
I fundamentally disagree with this on every possible level. You're always gaining something for your time investment, even if it's just a little R&R.
Leisure time / R&R is needed by everyone, but rarely deemed "productive".
'Waste' / 'Wasting' may be too strong to stomach.


Its not a culture that has been created. Why play Game A if it takes 100 hours to get to the fun parts if Game B is played almost the same and only takes 10 hours to get to the fun parts? Remember games are in constant competition, all WoW and the other games did was trying to stay ahead of the curve.

Once again, its from a perspective of competition. One game can feel like a waste of time compared to another game.

You are not factoring in the value created by the player enjoying the game. League of Legends as work (unless you are a professional player) is not well paying, but that doesn't mean that playing it doesn't create value.
Its up to everyone to use their time as they see fit. I enjoy and value every second I can escape to play. It is always a measure of personal enjoyment. However, what people are saying here is that there is a grind involved in enjoying yourself, or a significant amount of money involved.

These statements are under the presumption that in-order to enjoy your time playing Hex, you need to be rewarded for your time. The fun parts are available to you right out the gates, just like they would be in LOL.

I believe the disconnect is, while it may be fun, there is no variety offered for free now to enhance the PvP experience.

Idus
05-20-2014, 03:10 PM
I posted this in the other thread but... adding gold to PvP means less incentive for PvP players to sell their PvP cards/boosters to the f2p players (higher prices for PvP cards on the auction hall) AND it means devaluing gold as there is a lot more of it flowing into the system (even higher prices for PvP cards on the auction hall in terms of gold).

We've had other threads discussing this, and I am strongly against gold being available in PvP, once PvE becomes available, for the reasons Svenn has stated above and more. If you ever want PvE players to get a foot into the PvP door, you need to make strong pathway between the two. PvP player must want gold, that only PvE players can provide, and PvE player must want platinum or PvP cards, that only PvP players can provide.

If you make PvP & PvE independent of one another, to any degree, the linkage between the two weakens or breaks, and you might as well have two completely separate games. PvE would have little value to Cryptozoic, providing less incentive to improve on it, meaning less new players being introduced to the game, and not converting to PvP players, thereby making the game less successful for them, so less money to spend on improving PvP, and the cycle continues.

As someone who enjoys PvE games immensely, and PvP sometimes, and has more time than money, I want the pathway to convert my PvE time to PvP play to be as strong as a possible, and the suggestions to move plat to PvE or gold to PvP simply break the connections. It just needs time to get both halves of the game in and linked, and all these issues will go away.

Dichdude
05-20-2014, 04:36 PM
We've had other threads discussing this, and I am strongly against gold being available in PvP, once PvE becomes available, for the reasons Svenn has stated above and more. If you ever want PvE players to get a foot into the PvP door, you need to make strong pathway between the two. PvP player must want gold, that only PvE players can provide, and PvE player must want platinum or PvP cards, that only PvP players can provide.

If you make PvP & PvE independent of one another, to any degree, the linkage between the two weakens or breaks, and you might as well have two completely separate games. PvE would have little value to Cryptozoic, providing less incentive to improve on it, meaning less new players being introduced to the game, and not converting to PvP players, thereby making the game less successful for them, so less money to spend on improving PvP, and the cycle continues.

As someone who enjoys PvE games immensely, and PvP sometimes, and has more time than money, I want the pathway to convert my PvE time to PvP play to be as strong as a possible, and the suggestions to move plat to PvE or gold to PvP simply break the connections. It just needs time to get both halves of the game in and linked, and all these issues will go away.

Hmmm...I don't understand why people think PvP players will not play PvE at all and the only way they will be able to get gold is through exchange with PvE players. I can't imagine there being very many (any) PvP'ers that won't ever touch the PvE side of the game and wont be able to get all the gold they need to open chests in a relatively short period of time. All I can see is gold being worthless to PvP players and nothing but maybe a few common cards will ever go up for auction for gold; not even taking into account disenchanting cards which will make this even less likely.

To be honest, until we actually get to see/play the PvE side of Hex we are not going to know if the divide of PvP and PvE will be a problem. We all know it SOUNDS good but does it PLAY good and will it be enough for the F2P players not to feel like the best part of the game is pay walled off from them which will bring no end of issues.

Hex is a digital game which seems to have held onto a physical game payment model into a F2P market which is rapidly evolving with even the largest developers rushing to join in. It will be interesting to see if the F2P/Pay2Play model will work. Only time will tell; but I am sure it's going to be fascinating.

Xexist
05-20-2014, 04:43 PM
Yes Xexist. Entropy pointed that out.

Good for him. Remind me to send out his rewards.

nicosharp
05-20-2014, 04:44 PM
Time spend on something you enjoy is never wasted time :D
I agree, but my Mom and Wife are vivid in my mind of telling me otherwise :P (wasted was the wrong word / their words)

Fateanomaly
05-20-2014, 07:35 PM
Just release the pve already even if it just a single dungeon.

Idus
05-20-2014, 07:37 PM
Hmmm...I don't understand why people think PvP players will not play PvE at all and the only way they will be able to get gold is through exchange with PvE players.

OK maybe that wasn't worded well. It's not that individual player as such, but the in-game experiences which need to be separate. Some people like PvE only, some like PvP only, some like both. The people who like both can be self sufficient, but they will need to invest both time to play PvE and money to play PvP, so both will progress at a slower rate, than dedicating to one particular side.

If however you make getting PvE rewards inherently part of your normal PvP experience, and vice-versa, you reduce the benefit of one side over the other, unless you can achieve both sides equally, and I'm pretty sure there's no direct way to get plat in PvE, so to keep the balance there should be no direct way to get gold in PvP.

You also seem to be assuming getting gold in PvE will be easy with little investment. It may or may not be, we have no idea, but if the whole system isn't balanced properly, one of them will lose value, to the detriment of the whole game.

dnu
05-21-2014, 06:04 AM
as long as you can casually play the PvE to prepare for PvP , all is good!

add fluff for cash and i will happily spend money.

Toasteros
05-21-2014, 06:12 AM
I completely agree with you; I'm in exactly the position you described (i.e. not a backer, just got a beta key from a friend, and already frustrated with the starter deck). At the very least, there should be an option to start with packs instead of a constructed deck. That way, it would be possible to start entering draft/sealed tournaments right away.

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 06:29 AM
I completely agree with you; I'm in exactly the position you described (i.e. not a backer, just got a beta key from a friend, and already frustrated with the starter deck). At the very least, there should be an option to start with packs instead of a constructed deck. That way, it would be possible to start entering draft/sealed tournaments right away.

You would still have to buy platinum to enter, and the minimum is $5. You may as well just pay for the whole draft and pick cards for your constructed deck.

Toasteros
05-21-2014, 06:37 AM
You would still have to buy platinum to enter, and the minimum is $5. You may as well just pay for the whole draft and pick cards for your constructed deck.

Shoot, is that the case? I'm brand spanking new, so I don't even know how the tournament system works. But I found out quickly enough that I can't enter a draft using just my starter package!

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 06:45 AM
Shoot, is that the case? I'm brand spanking new, so I don't even know how the tournament system works. But I found out quickly enough that I can't enter a draft using just my starter package!

Yeah, it is $1 to enter a draft or sealed (plus 3 boosters for draft, and 6 boosters for sealed.) Constructed has a higher price point, at $3 to enter, but you don't 'waste' any packs by entering, so any prizes are basically profit.

With $5 minimum purchase (which gives 500 platinum) you could do constructed once, and buy a pack. If you go a little bit higher you can enter draft ($7 total) and try to win some packs in 5-3-2-2 (I have won a fair share myself, over 20 packs, so if you are a quick learner you could make your money go a lot further).

Toasteros
05-21-2014, 06:59 AM
Yeah, it is $1 to enter a draft or sealed (plus 3 boosters for draft, and 6 boosters for sealed.) Constructed has a higher price point, at $3 to enter, but you don't 'waste' any packs by entering, so any prizes are basically profit.

With $5 minimum purchase (which gives 500 platinum) you could do constructed once, and buy a pack. If you go a little bit higher you can enter draft ($7 total) and try to win some packs in 5-3-2-2 (I have won a fair share myself, over 20 packs, so if you are a quick learner you could make your money go a lot further).

Thanks for clarifying (and in terms of real money, too)! I'll definitely have to give drafting a shot; I'm a decent limited player in MtG so this might be my best way to catch up to all the Kickstarter folks :)

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 07:09 AM
Thanks for clarifying (and in terms of real money, too)! I'll definitely have to give drafting a shot; I'm a decent limited player in MtG so this might be my best way to catch up to all the Kickstarter folks :)

Hey, happy to help out any way I can! Just look out for me if you start drafting a lot, I have been improving a lot and I will put up quite the fight. :D

Rendakor
05-21-2014, 07:22 AM
I think it would be nice if anyone getting a beta key got a free draft ticket; once open beta starts that's a bad idea but now it will help.

Giving any sort of reward for Proving Ground matches is a bad idea, because botting is a thing. A mode where players could bet gold (or plat) might work but that would take time to implement so it won't be here any time soon.

Xenavire
05-21-2014, 07:24 AM
Well, the AH will mitigate some of these worries, and hopefully the arena won't be far behind. When those are both in, things will be looking pretty peachy for every player - new, old, PvP or PvE, we will all have something to do.

mach
05-21-2014, 08:27 AM
I think it would be nice if anyone getting a beta key got a free draft ticket; once open beta starts that's a bad idea but now it will help.

Giving any sort of reward for Proving Ground matches is a bad idea, because botting is a thing. A mode where players could bet gold (or plat) might work but that would take time to implement so it won't be here any time soon.

A one-time Proving Grounds reward would work. Something like play five games and get a free booster.

As for betting gold/plat, I'm not certain but this might get them into trouble because of anti-gambling laws. One lawsuit is enough. :)