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MugenMusou
05-24-2014, 08:19 AM
Being in a digitally exclusive, why do we need to simulate tapping a card?

Can't we have alternate method of representing them? Such as change the card to black and white while exhausted. Have a big label that it is exhausted etc.

What cool way of representing this can you guys think?

Xenavire
05-24-2014, 08:47 AM
It needs to be something that anyone can look at once and see the state of the board. Can't do colours too much (colourblind people) and it has to still look presentable.

I think exhausting things is perfectly acceptable and clear about what it does.

hexnaes
05-24-2014, 10:46 AM
The summoning sickness represents the same thing as exhausting, correct? Why can't that effect just be used?

Kilo24
05-24-2014, 10:55 AM
Incorrect. There's a few differences between summoning sickness and exhaustion, but the biggest one is that a creature with summoning sickness can block and an exhausted one cannot.

hexnaes
05-24-2014, 03:11 PM
Incorrect. There's a few differences between summoning sickness and exhaustion, but the biggest one is that a creature with summoning sickness can block and an exhausted one cannot.

Ah, that's true. What are the other differences?

YourOpponent
05-24-2014, 03:17 PM
Ah, that's true. What are the other differences?

Creatures with summoning sickness can't use abilities that would require tapping the creature to use.

IndigoShade
05-24-2014, 03:59 PM
If you mean HEX shouldn't turn cards sideways because WoTC has an overly broad patent claiming it as their invention, don't bother. They invented any means of indicating that a card has been spent for the turn under the broad definition of tapping, and that includes it changing to black & white.

MugenMusou
05-24-2014, 04:20 PM
If you mean HEX shouldn't turn cards sideways because WoTC has an overly broad patent claiming it as their invention, don't bother. They invented any means of indicating that a card has been spent for the turn under the broad definition of tapping, and that includes it changing to black & white.

Partly yes. But I just thought with a game being digitally exclusive, something like is an area where it has a potential to be innovative or readily different.

hexnaes
05-24-2014, 04:26 PM
Creatures with summoning sickness can't use abilities that would require tapping the creature to use.

But that's effectively the same as the creature being exhausted, yes?

IndigoShade
05-24-2014, 04:35 PM
Partly yes. But I just thought with a game being digitally exclusive, something like is an area where it has a potential to be innovative or readily different.

On one hand I get that they're trying to retain some of the aspects that people associate with physical card games whether it be fore nostalgic reasons or to ease the transition from physical card games to digital ones through familiarities. On the other hand though, there really as some things that could easily be handled differently since this game isn't bound by the same confines that a physical card game is, and maybe it would be better for the game to go a different route.

I posted similar sentiments in one of the the WotC lawsuit threads, basically suggesting they do whatever they can to differentiate themselves from that other game in ways that don't affect the core gameplay. So I get where you're coming from.

MugenMusou
05-24-2014, 04:56 PM
On one hand I get that they're trying to retain some of the aspects that people associate with physical card games whether it be fore nostalgic reasons or to ease the transition from physical card games to digital ones through familiarities. On the other hand though, there really as some things that could easily be handled differently since this game isn't bound by the same confines that a physical card game is, and maybe it would be better for the game to go a different route.

I posted similar sentiments in one of the the WotC lawsuit threads, basically suggesting they do whatever they can to differentiate themselves from that other game in ways that don't affect the core gameplay. So I get where you're coming from.

Ditto! Exactly what I wanted to say.

Kilo24
05-24-2014, 06:56 PM
Ah, that's true. What are the other differences?
They're mostly card-specific differences for things that will affect an exhausted troop but not hit one with summoning sickness or vice versa. Clear Sky Stormcaller can only ping an exhausted enemy, Mesmerize will prevent all attacks from an already exhausted troop but one with summoning sickness will still get one (or as many as they want with Steadfast), Succulent Roostasaur can exhaust a troop with summoning sickness but not one already exhausted - that type of thing. Nothing huge, but it does make a gameplay difference.

Zomnivore
05-26-2014, 02:59 AM
Why not pretend the cards are buttons, and press them in? locking them into a fixed position, or simply simulating a lock on the card. If you represent it similarly to how a gem is held into a socket it would be pretty thematically tied in.

meetthefuture
05-26-2014, 04:15 AM
I'm confused how people can think that recoloring or "pressing in" or w/e can be as good as tapping

Appearance of tapped and untapped cards is completely different when you take a glance look on the field. With any thing that keeps the card a vertical rectangle of pretty much the same size after an action it's much less obvious.

MugenMusou
05-26-2014, 01:15 PM
I'm confused how people can think that recoloring or "pressing in" or w/e can be as good as tapping

Appearance of tapped and untapped cards is completely different when you take a glance look on the field. With any thing that keeps the card a vertical rectangle of pretty much the same size after an action it's much less obvious.

That's probably because you have a background of playing other TCG in the past. I remember when I played my first Magic, tapping felt a bit awkward though easy learn, and my first TCG experience was actually digital card game preceding Magic.

Rendakor
05-26-2014, 06:46 PM
On one hand I get that they're trying to retain some of the aspects that people associate with physical card games whether it be fore nostalgic reasons or to ease the transition from physical card games to digital ones through familiarities. On the other hand though, there really as some things that could easily be handled differently since this game isn't bound by the same confines that a physical card game is, and maybe it would be better for the game to go a different route.

I posted similar sentiments in one of the the WotC lawsuit threads, basically suggesting they do whatever they can to differentiate themselves from that other game in ways that don't affect the core gameplay. So I get where you're coming from.
I think changing the game to differentiate themselves from MtG now would be akin to admitting fault. Maybe if they lose the lawsuit they should make random changes like this, but doing so preemptively indicates that CZE believes the lawsuit has merit.

cferejohn
05-26-2014, 09:31 PM
I think changing the game to differentiate themselves from MtG now would be akin to admitting fault. Maybe if they lose the lawsuit they should make random changes like this, but doing so preemptively indicates that CZE believes the lawsuit has merit.

Also there are a bunch of LCGs/TCGs that use "turn card sideways" with some other word (exhaust/ready I think has been used before. Game of Thrones LCG uses Kneel for "tap" (can't remember what 'untap' is - Stand maybe?). It's going to be pretty hard for a lawsuit to make a big deal of that since they can point to any number of non-Magic card games that use some kind of "turn card sideways" mechanic.

meetthefuture
05-26-2014, 11:47 PM
That's probably because you have a background of playing other TCG in the past. I remember when I played my first Magic, tapping felt a bit awkward though easy learn, and my first TCG experience was actually digital card game preceding Magic.

I've played tcgs both with tapping and without, actually. Let's take the HS as example, people like ot there. In HS, when you take a look at the table while considering your play mid-turn, it's not that obvious who had attacked thos turn and who can still deliver their piece of damage. Just because they all are ovals in the same position. Different forms are easier to be recognized by a human eye than different coloring at a glance.

If we change from tapping - we have to invent something that changes the form of card too

Gwaer
05-26-2014, 11:52 PM
They say HS doesn't tap cards, but when I am playing on my ipad all I am doing is tapping cards.

Patrigan
05-27-2014, 12:05 AM
They say HS doesn't tap cards, but when I am playing on my ipad all I am doing is tapping cards.

That's punny!

In general, I personally prefer HS method than the Magic method. It's just way more engrossing into the setting. My opinion honestly has nothing to do with the lawsuit (I'm actually bored with hearing about it).

The suggestion someone made here, where some sort of "Gem lock" would appear over the card sounded really cool. UIt's also the one which is easiest to replace on card text. (the new symbol would be such a gemlock). Might even be cooler with the hexagonal cards someone brought up somewhere else (although that one was actually related to the lawsuit, so meh)

I mean, physical cards are all nice and fun, but seriously, we're playing a computer game, go wild!

Cernz
05-27-2014, 01:24 AM
they dont need to tap them 90 , they also could tap only 45 - would be fine too and looks a
bit more agressive ;) (WOTC only has that 90 patent or do they have a general patent on
"tapping"?)

Gwaer
05-27-2014, 01:41 AM
It's a general patent on any way that you can designate a card as used. Be it putting marks or tokens or flipping the card or rotating it. Anything.

Zomnivore
05-27-2014, 03:22 AM
It's a general patent on any way that you can designate a card as used. Be it putting marks or tokens or flipping the card or rotating it. Anything.

Oh I thought it was specifically tapping.

Thats obviously not going to hold up if pushed.

Obviously.

Sadeyx
05-27-2014, 06:41 AM
It's a general patent on any way that you can designate a card as used. Be it putting marks or tokens or flipping the card or rotating it. Anything.

I find this difficult to believe.

hexnaes
05-27-2014, 07:10 AM
I find this difficult to believe.

Welcome to American patent law!

negativeZer0
05-27-2014, 09:11 AM
It's a general patent on any way that you can designate a card as used. Be it putting marks or tokens or flipping the card or rotating it. Anything.

I find this difficult to believe.

Yes as stupid as this sounds this is indeed the patent WOTC holds which is why lawsuits like this happen. It will not hold up as enforceable in court however.

Vorpal
05-27-2014, 09:22 AM
So...there could be value in Hex not doing exactly what MTG does to indicate a card being 'used' even if MTG has attempted to patent every single way of indicating a card.

Even if the patents are struck down as ludicrous (which they should be) Hex could still fall in trouble over the copyright and trade-dress issues.

Turtlewing
05-27-2014, 01:28 PM
I find this difficult to believe.

It's not that hard to understand once you remember that Magic: The Gathering was rather novel when it was first conceived.

The actual patent is aimed at protecting the method of playing a game that is the core mechanics of a CCG/TCG. And it was (like most patents) written to avoid trivial side-steps like using tiles instead of cards or using an alternate method of marking cards as used.