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View Full Version : volcannon in draft game breaking op?



shocker455
05-24-2014, 05:22 PM
Is it just me or is volcannon way to powerful? Mainly because its nearly impossible to remove, unless your green(or a lucky red).

Once it enter play odds are u only have 2 turns untill it kill you.

For an uncommon card it just shows up way to offent that decks have multiples of it

darkwonders
05-24-2014, 05:26 PM
it's only powerful in a dwarf/robot deck, so no. it's not game breaking op.

poizonous
05-24-2014, 05:30 PM
Well I for one have not seen an opponent with multiple Volcannons and I also wouldnt agree that it is OP. Sure it is a card that requires 1 of 2 things. A quick answer or Lifegain, both of which you should have prepared to draft.

In diamond you can Solitary Exile it or gain a bunch of life through lifedrain troops.

Blood has the hardest time dealing with a volcannon but it still isnt impossible. When you draft blood you should always make room to splash another shard with artifact removal.

Wild has the most answers to it and the most reliable answer would probably be to outdamage your opponent before volcannon becomes an issue.

Ruby has a few ways of disposing artifacts + burn cards to destroy all the little robots that are fueling the volcannon.

Sapphire once again not very well suited against artifacts which is why you need to splash a shard that can + the fact that you can fly over artifacts and kill your opponent without worrying about the volcannon.

hex_colin
05-24-2014, 05:54 PM
I've lost to it once in 100+ drafts.

I've won with it maybe 3 or 4 times. It's just not that OP.

Gwaer
05-24-2014, 06:34 PM
I hate draft them religiously. The stronger it gets the less likely it will make it to a dwarf deck to be used.

Yoss
05-24-2014, 07:08 PM
I just beat a volcannon in my most recent draft. *shrug*

hex_colin
05-24-2014, 07:34 PM
I hate draft them religiously.

QFT - they're definitely one of my most common uncommons and I haven't actually played that archetype very often at all.

S117
05-24-2014, 07:44 PM
And also remember that EVERYTHING under ideal situations is powerful and potentially game-winning.

What if I'm playing Sapphire and heavily draft flyers?
Then you're playing Wild with not even the potential of having any flyers beyond a single legendary, two rares and an uncommon kill spell that has no use beyond killing flyers.

What happens? I have an arguably large advantage over you because you cannot block any of my troops.
Does this make flying OP? Not many would say so...this was just a circumstance where a game mechanic I drafted ended up being paired against a favorable opponent.

One draft I scrubbed out round one where a flying Pterobot killed me (by doing 10+ damage) while I literally sat staring at the two Murders in my hand. Did I draft poorly? I'd like to think not (And would love to see someone argue that Murder sucks too much to draft 2+ of). It simply ended up in a situation where I ended up paired against the perfect answer to my deck.

shocker455
05-24-2014, 07:51 PM
I hate draft them ofc. And I'm not saying they auto win the game. I'm saying they are to powerful because of lack of removal.

And ofc it's only good in dwarf deck lol.

A shard color should not be in deep trouble from one card, nor should someone be drafting around one card

Edit, I also think green needs reach...

S117
05-24-2014, 07:56 PM
Myself I honestly wish there were more answers to artifacts around in general. Volcannon is probably the worst offender but what about Eternal Guardian? That's legendary, to be sure, to keep it from getting out of hand...but there aren't many answers to it either. Can't use the aforementioned Murder as the most common answer. Conflict doesn't really stop it...and if you're playing Diamond you think I'm ever going to attack with it when you have 2 resources open and a card in hand?

Xenavire
05-24-2014, 08:02 PM
We also need a little more constant removal (perhaps similar to the imps.) Soul marble is fairly hard to deal with for some shards and that global spellshield is nasty. Admittedly rarer and slightly harder to pull off than volcannon, but infinitely more splashable.

hex_colin
05-24-2014, 08:07 PM
We also need a little more constant removal (perhaps similar to the imps.) Soul marble is fairly hard to deal with for some shards and that global spellshield is nasty. Admittedly rarer and slightly harder to pull off than volcannon, but infinitely more splashable.

Yeah, I think I've won every draft I got a Soul Marble in. It's OP!!!

The reality - it's strong, but you need some luck too, and 22 other cards with synergies.

shocker455
05-24-2014, 08:59 PM
It's not hard to get 18 good dwarfs/robots

sukebe
05-24-2014, 09:05 PM
Every shard can deal with a volcannon deck. Ruby, diamond, and wild can destroy it directly. Sapphire can counter the cannon or bounce it or the troops needed to use it. Blood is really good at killing the troops needed to activate the cannon. It is very strong, but not at all broken. Usually, cards that require other cards before they can do anything are not at all broken as they are too easy to disrupt.

Kroan
05-24-2014, 11:20 PM
Volcannon is the best uncommon in the set. Opening up on a volcannon and not picking it (unless there is some really sweet rare/legendary), is insanity. The card wins games. It's simple as that. It's hard to deal with and reliable damage. It gives incredible reach with no downsides. It partly comes b/c of the champion that can make worker bots.

hex_colin
05-25-2014, 10:41 AM
Update - Soul Marble and 3 Volcannons is pretty good... ;)

Xenavire
05-25-2014, 11:06 AM
Update - Soul Marble and 3 Volcannons is pretty good... ;)

Dammit Colin! :p Stop being lucky and breaking the game!

Diesbudt
05-25-2014, 11:09 AM
Dammit Colin! :p Stop being lucky and breaking the game!

I am pretty sure the client knows how much Colin backed Hex with. His luck will always be infinitely greater than ours sadly :( lol

Shivdaddy
05-25-2014, 12:28 PM
I posted about this in alpha. Its really good. I think they should of just moved it to rare.

Xenavire
05-25-2014, 12:52 PM
I posted about this in alpha. Its really good. I think they should of just moved it to rare.

It isn't good enough to be rare, really. I just think we need more removal (which set 2 should bring) and suddenly things will look all peachy.

Zomnivore
05-25-2014, 01:13 PM
Imo its not too good its just that blood and diamond have no answers, and wild/ruby's answers are just more sideboardy then main deck.

Vorpal
05-25-2014, 01:48 PM
It isn't good enough to be rare, really. I just think we need more removal (which set 2 should bring) and suddenly things will look all peachy.

How will multiple sets work in draft? Would you get 2 set 1 packs and a set 2 pack, transitioning to a set 1, set 2, and set 3 pack?

Xenavire
05-25-2014, 02:00 PM
How will multiple sets work in draft? Would you get 2 set 1 packs and a set 2 pack, transitioning to a set 1, set 2, and set 3 pack?

I think this is how it will work. Does anyone know if it is standard to let people choose what pack ratio they want to draft? (Curious if separate queues would exist, or if that might be a block by block thing, or whatever.)

shocker455
05-25-2014, 02:06 PM
Ya i hope set 2 adds more answers, i just dont want to wait 2+ months :( (not to mention it lowers the chance of us seeing it)

Draft will probably be set2-set1-set1, then 3-2-1, then 4-3-2? 5-5-5, 6-5-5, etc. (assuming they follow other card games style)


Imo its not too good its just that blood and diamond have no answers, and wild/ruby's answers are just more sideboardy then main deck.

Ya, if there was more ways to deal with it, then it be fine.

Diesbudt
05-25-2014, 03:13 PM
Ya i hope set 2 adds more answers, i just dont want to wait 2+ months :( (not to mention it lowers the chance of us seeing it)

Draft will probably be set2-set1-set1, then 3-2-1, then 4-3-2? 5-5-5, 6-5-5, etc. (assuming they follow other card games style)



Ya, if there was more ways to deal with it, then it be fine.

This is my guess.

Or they have just set 1 draft. Just set 2 draft. and then the combined one Shocker is speaking of.

hex_colin
05-25-2014, 03:15 PM
The internal testing was done using Set 2 - Set 1 - Set 2 as far as I know. :)

Diesbudt
05-25-2014, 03:19 PM
The internal testing was done using Set 2 - Set 1 - Set 2 as far as I know. :)

Sure no set 3 or set 17 in there as well??

Werlix
05-25-2014, 03:24 PM
Once it enter play odds are u only have 2 turns untill it kill you.


How does it kill you in two turns? If you're on 6 life left you're in pretty bad shape anyway...

But yeah, Volcannnons are good :)

israel.kendall
05-25-2014, 03:42 PM
How does it kill you in two turns? If you're on 6 life left you're in pretty bad shape anyway...

But yeah, Volcannnons are good :)

Volcannon easily does 6-9 per turn.

poizonous
05-25-2014, 03:53 PM
Volcannon easily does 6-9 per turn.

If Volcannon is hitting you for 6-9 per turn than it is your fault for not dealing with the troops he had on the field before volcannon entered play

Werlix
05-25-2014, 04:35 PM
Volcannon easily does 6-9 per turn.

Easily? You need 4 dwarves/robots (who aren't blocking or attacking also) to get 6 per turn, right? And 7 of them to get 9 damage? Doesn't sound very easy to me. I suppose if your opponent isn't attacking with anything and you have like 5 charge bots in your deck...

israel.kendall
05-25-2014, 04:58 PM
4 robots by turn 5 is pretty easy. Just playing one charge bot can give you two worker bots on turn 5, and that makes 3 bots right there without even playing any other troops.

sukebe
05-25-2014, 06:08 PM
Imo its not too good its just that blood and diamond have no answers, and wild/ruby's answers are just more sideboardy then main deck.

It seems you missed this the last time I posted in this thread. TL DR: all colors have answers for the card itself or the troops that power it.

"Every shard can deal with a volcannon deck. Ruby, diamond, and wild can destroy it directly. Sapphire can counter the cannon or bounce it or the troops needed to use it. Blood is really good at killing the troops needed to activate the cannon. It is very strong, but not at all broken. Usually, cards that require other cards before they can do anything are not at all broken as they are too easy to disrupt."

Zomnivore
05-25-2014, 06:08 PM
I mean blood/diamond might have answers but there a lot less focused imo.

Bloods got sorrows...that sort of work kind of almost...

and diamonds got the voiding thing...that you never get to have because its a first pick like card.

Chance
05-25-2014, 09:57 PM
its strong because theres a good quantity of people who don't know how to draft yet either. all it takes is 4 people out of the pool to be semi hate drafting properly and dwarves will be a bit more castrated. As of now people don't prioritize fucking up other people enough and thus make archetypes extremely strong, the biggest payout are dwarves. So do your part and hate draft terobots/gearsmiths/volcannons kthx

Kroan
05-25-2014, 11:48 PM
its strong because theres a good quantity of people who don't know how to draft yet either. all it takes is 4 people out of the pool to be semi hate drafting properly and dwarves will be a bit more castrated. As of now people don't prioritize fucking up other people enough and thus make archetypes extremely strong, the biggest payout are dwarves. So do your part and hate draft terobots/gearsmiths/volcannons kthx

That sounds like a horrible idea

hex_colin
05-25-2014, 11:58 PM
To get those 4 dwarves by the time the Volcannon comes out the dwarven player can't really afford to attack or block. In my experience I can push through 6 - 10 damage during those turns. That means that by the time the Volcannon is doing 6 a round, I probably still have 3 rounds of damage left to do 10 - 14 points of damage. That's generally not too tough.

Alternatively, lots of removal (Burn, Murder, Bombsmith, Sapper Charge, SOTF, Pheromones on a strong troop [i.e. the reverse of what you'd normally use it for], etc.) can reliably get you to only having to worry about 3 damage a turn from Turn 4 or 5 onward. Plenty of time to get through with enough damage to be lethal.

IF you can get 2 Volcannons into play, that's pretty strong. But it really doesn't happen that often. I've never had anyone do it to me. And I've only gotten 2 Volcannons out 3 times. Twice came in games where I'd been able to draft 5 of them and was playing 4. Easiest way to stop that from happening - hate draft one when all you could take is a marginal card from your colors.

Zomnivore
05-26-2014, 12:54 AM
Its not just volcannon.

You're facing walls 2/3 blockers 3/5 blockers 4/5 blockers construction plans.

Dwarves can get very tempo-y with how artifact/dwarf troops act as resources, and if they can get 1 blocker to negate 3-4 turns of aggro troops...doing 4-8 damage isn't going to do much when they start dropping 3/5s construction plans, or find ways to pump robots into bombs.

pterobots are stated just to be just about un-deal-with-able by most flyers so you either need to wait, save a trick you were going to use to beat through, for one of your evasion troops (and hope they don't have any removal) and then beat through the air.

Eventually the board is swarmed with 1/1s, with the sporadic 1/4 or 2/3 or 4/5 or 3/5 and all you're doing is staring at them while they build the bombs they need to beat through.

You either have the super trick, bomb, and top deck out, or you don't and they beat you with a board that eventually can't be solved.

Sorrows are most effective against a lot of troops, and by that time the 1/1s have already effectively been used as resources to pump out the troops that don't care about -1/-1.

Shin'hare aren't immune to murders, and their troops aren't as effective once mesmerized or c/ced dwarf troops still count as resources for the pterobots still act as boons for the combo dwarfs.

So the shards with more defensive C/C or less quality C/C get boned when facing them.

Kroan
05-26-2014, 01:15 AM
Also, I happily trade my workerbots for your troops if you're just smashing in. My endgame is most likely better than yours, since I have a volcannon and you don't. I only need a single dwarf/bot to make volcannon work.

shocker455
05-26-2014, 03:07 AM
Ya the 3/5 flyer is crazy good as well. Seeing as other flyers are 2/1, 4/1, 2/4, or a unlikely 4/4, it makes a 3/5 flyer extremely powerful.

Really it seems like they balanced dwarfs, and then added the champ that makes robots to the game... If you took away the that champ, dwarfs would be weaker, and risky to draft.

meetthefuture
05-26-2014, 04:10 AM
Dwarves were overhyped, so now most of adequate players are now cutting at least 1-2 dwarven cards, which (for me) resulted in not meeting a single good dwarven deck in last 15 or even more drafts.

Or maybe I'm just avoiding them all the time or have a good matchup for them

Indormi
05-26-2014, 05:22 AM
I do agree that constant and artifact removal is definetly poor in this set, making constants and artifacts stronger. The only common answer to Volcanon is Nature Reings. All the other cards that can deal with it when is on the board are uncommon or rarer. (Imps, Solitary, Key etc.)

Xenavire
05-26-2014, 06:34 AM
I do agree that constant and artifact removal is definetly poor in this set, making constants and artifacts stronger. The only common answer to Volcanon is Nature Reings. All the other cards that can deal with it when is on the board are uncommon or rarer. (Imps, Solitary, Key etc.)

Don't discount counterspell and time ripple (counterspell can outright stop it and can combo with time ripple, and time ripple can slow it down.) And inquisition can just shut it down completely if you draw it early.

sukebe
05-26-2014, 02:54 PM
Its not just volcannon.

You're facing walls 2/3 blockers 3/5 blockers 4/5 blockers construction plans.

Dwarves can get very tempo-y with how artifact/dwarf troops act as resources, and if they can get 1 blocker to negate 3-4 turns of aggro troops...doing 4-8 damage isn't going to do much when they start dropping 3/5s construction plans, or find ways to pump robots into bombs.

pterobots are stated just to be just about un-deal-with-able by most flyers so you either need to wait, save a trick you were going to use to beat through, for one of your evasion troops (and hope they don't have any removal) and then beat through the air.

Eventually the board is swarmed with 1/1s, with the sporadic 1/4 or 2/3 or 4/5 or 3/5 and all you're doing is staring at them while they build the bombs they need to beat through.

You either have the super trick, bomb, and top deck out, or you don't and they beat you with a board that eventually can't be solved.

Sorrows are most effective against a lot of troops, and by that time the 1/1s have already effectively been used as resources to pump out the troops that don't care about -1/-1.

Shin'hare aren't immune to murders, and their troops aren't as effective once mesmerized or c/ced dwarf troops still count as resources for the pterobots still act as boons for the combo dwarfs.

So the shards with more defensive C/C or less quality C/C get boned when facing them.

Most of the troops you are talking about are available and useful to any color and most decks. I don't know about you but I find the pterobots useful in most any deck, even costing 7. If there isn't any other card I really must have in a booster I will gladly take pterobots or the 0/5 wall.

Essentially what you are saying is that if the volcannon player was able to get all (or at least a lot) of good artifact troops they will do very well....I can't deny that. The same could be said for any archetype though. However most of the things that would help a volcannon deck will also help other decks (which can't be said for many of the other archetypes).

poizonous
05-26-2014, 04:35 PM
The thing is this...

1) A ton of people are new drafters and dont understand the right time to pick certain cards. A Turret Wall is EASILY a top 3 pick in any pack as it can be used in EVERY draft deck you will build, getting a turret wall with pick 10 is unacceptable for the other 7 people who passed it so many times.

2) Links in with my 1st point but hate drafting is also something a ton of people arent doing, leading to drafts with 1 player getting every card they need for dwarves. If you see cards like Technical Genius, Volcannon, even researcher adepts and gearsmiths. Pick them up so other dwarf players dont get them. It is easy to shut down a Volcannon deck if you take away its resources

cferejohn
05-26-2014, 09:39 PM
The top end of the dwarf/artifact deck is probably the highest of any of the decks - even if it has 0 dwarf/artifact rares. However, because of that (as people have stated) it's going to get more heavily drafted in the meta, which means that people will be fighting over it (and they might be hating it if they have nothing better to pick). Volcannon isn't so amazing on its own that it will give you a good chance to win when you were fighting over the dwarfs and robots with 2 or 3 other players.

It's nearly tautological to say "if the deck you are trying to draft isn't being drafted by anyone else, it's going to be really good" - I think that's just more true of dwarf/artifact than for any other set 1 archetype. It doesn't mean it is unbeatable - it just means you should be quick to pounce on it if it seems open, but be willing and able to change directions if it looks like you are fighting over it.