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MugenMusou
06-10-2014, 07:22 PM
I see another thread but that ones appears to have gone to a bit side track.

I'm excited about the announcement and especially curious about how tunneling works.

My guess is your troop will appear line faced down cards to opponent but the actual order/position are also hidden so your opponent won't know which one of tunneling troop on the board is attacking.

This is obviously something we can't do on paper based tcg, and very intriguing. Do any of you thing this is something different than what I decribed above?

Also when is end of summer? September?

cferejohn
06-10-2014, 07:36 PM
Well the headline on the announcement says "this August"...
https://hextcg.com/shattered-destiny-this-august/

Fateanomaly
06-10-2014, 07:39 PM
My guess is that they can be played from hand in attack position during or just before declare attackers phase.

Prodygi
06-10-2014, 07:51 PM
You may cast this troop faced down. When you attack, flip over this card.
Tunneling
Tunneling creature can only block, or be blocked by other creatures with tunneling.

My guess

ossuary
06-10-2014, 07:59 PM
It seems as though you would play it face down (to your opponent - you can still see it) so the stats are hidden. It only gets revealed the first time it deals combat damage. So if your opponent attacks you, his troop might get swallowed by a hidden nasty. Or if he assumes it's a small troop and lets it through his defenses, it might turn out to be higher powered than he expected.

You could also have the troops do additional effects when they're first revealed.

That's my guess.

Rokku
06-10-2014, 08:04 PM
Tunneling
When you pay the cost of this card it cannot be seen, targeted, or responded to by the opponent during this turn.
The resources spend playing this card are not visible to the opponent.
At the start of your turn this card loses its power.

Ju66ernaut
06-10-2014, 08:09 PM
I don't believe that is correct, Rokku.

mach
06-10-2014, 08:11 PM
It seems as though you would play it face down (to your opponent - you can still see it) so the stats are hidden. It only gets revealed the first time it deals combat damage. So if your opponent attacks you, his troop might get swallowed by a hidden nasty. Or if he assumes it's a small troop and lets it through his defenses, it might turn out to be higher powered than he expected.

You could also have the troops do additional effects when they're first revealed.

That's my guess.

But they all have to cost the same, or your opponent can tell what it is by the cost. Which means they all have to be costed at that cost, so there can't be too much variation in power.

Rokku
06-10-2014, 08:20 PM
I don't believe that is correct, Rokku.

Ohh this is just my guess. Maybe shouldn't have made it look official lol.

ossuary
06-10-2014, 08:23 PM
But they all have to cost the same, or your opponent can tell what it is by the cost. Which means they all have to be costed at that cost, so there can't be too much variation in power.

But you could have multiple cards with tunneling at the same cost, with common, uncommon, rare, and legendary... that would allow you to have different power levels without changing the cost. And in a multi-shard deck, it would become even harder for the opponent to intuit what card you've got sitting there.

This mechanic won't work if only one card in each shard has it... it's going to need a few dozen options to be worth the time, otherwise everyone will know right away what you're playing. :)

mach
06-10-2014, 08:26 PM
But you could have multiple cards with tunneling at the same cost, with common, uncommon, rare, and legendary... that would allow you to have different power levels without changing the cost. And in a multi-shard deck, it would become even harder for the opponent to intuit what card you've got sitting there.

This mechanic won't work if only one card in each shard has it... it's going to need a few dozen options to be worth the time, otherwise everyone will know right away what you're playing. :)

I don't think there's enough room in a small set for several dozen tunneling cards. And even if you did that, you can't get around the fact that if your opponent paid 2 you know they have a 2-drop. It's not going to be an 8/8.

Rokku
06-10-2014, 08:28 PM
I don't think there's enough room in a small set for several dozen tunneling cards. And even if you did that, you can't get around the fact that if your opponent paid 2 you know they have a 2-drop. It's not going to be an 8/8.

just use my idea and make the cost paid not visible to opponent.

mach
06-10-2014, 08:29 PM
just use my idea and make the cost paid not visible to opponent.

That would mean you don't get to know how many resources your opponent has open. I don't think that's a line they should cross, given how important it is to the game's strategic depth.

yoyogod
06-10-2014, 08:30 PM
I just hope it's not too much like morph or it'll give Wizards one more thing to use in their lawsuit.

Xenavire
06-10-2014, 08:32 PM
I am surprised there hasn't been a suggestion about reverse flight. Essentially unblockable except by other tunnelers, can possibly block normal troops?

Rokku
06-10-2014, 08:34 PM
I am surprised there hasn't been a suggestion about reverse flight. Essentially unblockable except by other tunnelers, can possibly block normal troops?

Bahh not really exciting though is it? Just a different flavor of unblockable except for artifacts/blood troops.

Rokku
06-10-2014, 08:36 PM
That would mean you don't get to know how many resources your opponent has open. I don't think that's a line they should cross, given how important it is to the game's strategic depth.

Yeah I guess it is risky but as long as it is limited to certain cards and play tested might be a fun stealth mechanic you could never do in a paper TCG.

styk182
06-10-2014, 08:42 PM
Maybe tunneling itself will have a cost associated with it... say 2 resources. You can hard cast it like normal for full cost or you can pay 2 and play it face down and then have the ability to flip it (maybe at instant speed?) at a later time for cost minus the 2 resources paid to tunnel it.

ossuary
06-10-2014, 08:47 PM
Maybe tunneling itself will have a cost associated with it... say 2 resources. You can hard cast it like normal for full cost or you can pay 2 and play it face down and then have the ability to flip it (maybe at instant speed?) at a later time for cost minus the 2 resources paid to tunnel it.

... that would be Morph. :p

It's not Morph.

mach
06-10-2014, 08:50 PM
... that would be Morph. :p

It's not Morph.

Don't go all Colin on us. :)

Is that something you actually know or are you just saying it because surely they wouldn't be stupid enough to directly copy yet another MtG mechanic?

styk182
06-10-2014, 08:52 PM
... that would be Morph. :p

It's not Morph.

Huh... I'm not a MTG player so I assumed that morph was already their mechanic so I had to go look it up. I can honestly say that I came up with that idea on my own and it was pure coincidence that it was the same as morph. Weird! Hope I don't get sued now ;)

Yoss
06-10-2014, 10:08 PM
I am having a taste of Colin's world. I know the answer.... :)

Voormas
06-11-2014, 12:09 AM
I read someone speculate that maybe it modifies the order of cards in your deck - the Tunneling troops literally tunnel their way to the surface / your hand at a certain rate

I think that idea is both bonkers and rad as hell + something you could ONLY do in a digital TCG like Hex

hex_colin
06-11-2014, 01:45 AM
I am having a taste of Colin's world. I know the answer.... :)

I know, right? I just want to spill the beans, but I'll refrain.

Suffice to say the general idea has been explored at points in this thread, but there is definitely a very novel component to the mechanic too.

Fateanomaly
06-11-2014, 01:45 AM
Oh maybe when you cast it, you put it into opponent's deck and when they draw it, it comes into and attack the opponent.

ossuary
06-11-2014, 04:20 AM
I read someone speculate that maybe it modifies the order of cards in your deck - the Tunneling troops literally tunnel their way to the surface / your hand at a certain rate

I think that idea is both bonkers and rad as hell + something you could ONLY do in a digital TCG like Hex

OK, I know it's not that, but that's a totally awesome idea. Very cool thinking. :)

Each card has a tunneling number on it, and when it's in your deck, at the start of your turn, it moves up that many spaces in your deck, until it's on the top, and you draw it. That would be really cool.

Warrender
06-11-2014, 04:59 AM
But they all have to cost the same, or your opponent can tell what it is by the cost. Which means they all have to be costed at that cost, so there can't be too much variation in power.

Not really. They might all have the same initial cost but then have an additional cost to reveal its true nature allowing for more variation.

MugenMusou
06-11-2014, 05:33 AM
Interesting that everyone has different take on this.

I hope it's not one time ability ie only first time attack is tunneling, which can be implemented easily with physical card.

My guess was that tunneling card always appear faced down to opponent but relative position of the card is randomized. This means let's say you have three tunnelers on the board, your opponent sees three faced down card next to each.

When you attack the arc always shows from the left most troop so if you have two attacking left and middle faced down gets attack arcs independent of which of your tunneller is actually attacking. Upon the damage assignment phase, they see your card but next turn they still don't know which one is which. If only one tunneler on the board, one gets to know what it is after first attack but more you have it harder for opponent to guess.

This seems to add new layer of strategy such that rather than attacking right away with first tunneler wait until second is also out so opponent can't target first one with certainty.

As far as the august, I thought that's when they reveal more info but not necessary the set release...

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 05:43 AM
You’ll find these new features and more coming this August from HEX Entertainment.

They also mention that the release is Summer this year. So it is definitely releasing in August, and we will get news the whole time leading up to release.

EDIT: I just thought of something cool... What if it was like a temporary spellshield, but stronger, also blocking Extinction effects etc? I mean, they are underground... :p

I can only assume it would have to disappear once they attack, and then you possibly pay a cost to go underground again, like a mole.

EDIT 2: What if tunneling troops are just normal troops, but you can't target or destroy them until they are attacking in combat? And after combat they vanish again? It would put a lot more pressure on people to hold combat tricks etc.

vulture27
06-11-2014, 06:16 AM
I noticed a few people mentioned Morph. My other immediate thought was Ninjutsu from the kamigawa block (return an unblocked troop to your hand, replace it with a Ninjutsu troop from your hand).

I imagine CZE will put their own twist on the mechanic. I just don't see any way it won't resemble something in MTG (given the 20+ years head start).

Mahes
06-11-2014, 06:28 AM
But you could have multiple cards with tunneling at the same cost, with common, uncommon, rare, and legendary... that would allow you to have different power levels without changing the cost. And in a multi-shard deck, it would become even harder for the opponent to intuit what card you've got sitting there.

This mechanic won't work if only one card in each shard has it... it's going to need a few dozen options to be worth the time, otherwise everyone will know right away what you're playing. :)

Not if tunneling is also a gem effect.

That would be a bit powerful with the new two socket cards......

malloc31
06-11-2014, 06:43 AM
I think tunneling will be:

If you have the threshold to play this card you may play it for free, but it is played face down, every turn place a counter on the card. When the number of counters equals the cost flip it over.

Thrawn
06-11-2014, 06:54 AM
Playing something face down that you can flip up in some way would be a really lazy design in a digital space, especially when they are already being accused of copying Magic so much.

malloc31
06-11-2014, 06:59 AM
they actual animation of it could be whatever. you could play it but your opponent would just see a pile of dirt, visually it could be anything, but the effect is the same.

YourOpponent
06-11-2014, 07:01 AM
I figured tunneling would work like stealth on Hearthstone. Your opponent sees what you play, but can't target it or block it until you've hit them with it (or used it for blocking)

Or it being like Ossuaries tunnel idea of cards with tunneling in your deck start going closer to the top of your deck.

mudkip
06-11-2014, 07:06 AM
I feel like it will be a creature that stays shrouded until after it is blocked. It would be a fun bluff card, but anything more (like unblockable for 1 turn) could be a bit OP.

Thrawn
06-11-2014, 07:18 AM
Or it being like Ossuaries tunnel idea of cards with tunneling in your deck start going closer to the top of your deck.

I missed that one earlier. Something with deck movement seems pretty feasible to me. It fits the keyword as well as keeping with CZE's strong desire to use the digital space as much as they can.

mudkip
06-11-2014, 07:49 AM
Deck mobility would be super fun! There could be tutor-style cards that work by pulling specific cards closer to the front until you draw them.

ossuary
06-11-2014, 07:58 AM
If that's what it was, it would also be neat if there were actions (or troops) that let you give other specific cards in your deck tunneling, so you could push them towards the top sooner.

Sadeyx
06-11-2014, 08:00 AM
Am I the only one who thinks this will be almost identical to MTG's 'Landwalk' ?

*facepalm*

Which, I might add, is the worst creature ability ever. In general any abilty which makes the creature be unblockable, IS HORRIBLE.

I never like putting them in my deck because they are so circumstantial, its another, random 'get lucky if the opponent has x in play' kind of feature.

If it is anything like this, I will be extremly disapointed and urge HEX to be more innovative.

mudkip
06-11-2014, 08:07 AM
Am I the only one who thinks this will be almost identical to MTG's 'Landwalk' ?

*facepalm*

Which, I might add, is the worst creature ability ever. In general any abilty which makes the creature be unblockable, IS HORRIBLE.

I never like putting them in my deck because they are so circumstantial, its another, random 'get lucky if the opponent has x in play' kind of feature.

If it is anything like this, I will be extremly disapointed and urge HEX to be more innovative.
Unblockable is already a keyword, it won't be that.

Vorpal
06-11-2014, 08:07 AM
Whatever it is I hope it's not a mechanic MTG uses. So I hope it's not morph.

The name Tunneling reminds me of the rule from Warhammer - where basically before the game you pick certain troops who have the 'tunneling' rule and specify the point for their tunnel to emerge and they start digging from your side to their side and pop up behind the opponents line on a certain turn - they could get lost or tunnel off the board or fail to emerge or emerge late, etc.

So maybe there is an aspect of having cards of yours tunnel their way into the opponents deck and pop up unexpectedly and unpredictably into play.

That said, I wouldn't mind if it was just another 'reverse' layer of flight such that guys with tunneling cannot be blocked by creatures with flight. I feel flight is pretty OP atm and there is no reason you would not take a flyer

Sadeyx
06-11-2014, 08:29 AM
Unblockable is already a keyword, it won't be that.
of course it can be.

It will be like the opposite of flying. flying creatures fly 'over' troops, tunneling creatures will tunnel 'under' troops

I guarantee you it definatly will be something which makes troops unblockable and is very much adopting similar path that mtg took. a very shallow, unimaginative ability.

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 09:06 AM
Am I the only one who thinks this will be almost identical to MTG's 'Landwalk' ?

*facepalm*

Which, I might add, is the worst creature ability ever. In general any abilty which makes the creature be unblockable, IS HORRIBLE.

I never like putting them in my deck because they are so circumstantial, its another, random 'get lucky if the opponent has x in play' kind of feature.

If it is anything like this, I will be extremly disapointed and urge HEX to be more innovative.

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: Hex is unlikely to ever adopt landwalking. There is no way to comfortably fit it into the lore. It is also a pretty horrible mechanic.

Turtlewing
06-11-2014, 09:18 AM
On the unimagintive side I could see it being someting like:

Play this troop face down. It's unblocable while face down, and turn it face up when id deals damage to a player. Might be a standard "tunnel" troop instead of "face down".

But I kind of expect it to be something more clever that a paper game couldn't really do.

Perhaps some way that troops can attack from your deck. Maybe something like:

"If this troop is on top of your deck during your attack phase, put it into play exhausted, and attacking after the defender has declared blockers".
The ability would probably have a threshold requirement in line with what it takes to cast the troop normally.

Or maybe:

"When this troop is blocked you may shuffle it into your deck, if you do it gains permanent unblocable, speed, and when this troop is on top of your deck you may play it for free, if you do it looses this ability". When this troop deals damage to a champion it looses unblocable and speed."

Or:

"When this troop is blocked shuffle it into the defender's deck, it gains permanent 'when this card enters your hand or graveyard put it unto play under your opponent's control, it deals damage to you equal to it's attack, and loses this ability' "

DionyzRex
06-11-2014, 09:52 AM
of course it can be.

It will be like the opposite of flying. flying creatures fly 'over' troops, tunneling creatures will tunnel 'under' troops

I guarantee you it definatly will be something which makes troops unblockable and is very much adopting similar path that mtg took. a very shallow, unimaginative ability.

Oh, you. :)

ravenight
06-11-2014, 10:03 AM
It says something about wreaking havoc with enemy troops, and Tunneling sounds more like an ambush type of keyword to me from the description. My first thought was that it's like Flash ("you can play this card whenever you could play a Quick Action"), but calling it Tunneling makes it sound more offense-oriented than that. I don't think it will be like Ninjutsu (where you return an attacker to your hand), but maybe some combination of Flash and a CITP "This troops battles target troop"?

Or maybe it just means "When you declare this troop as an attacker, you may have it battle target troop instead"...

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 10:08 AM
When this troop deals damage an opposing champion, it deals one more damage for each other attacking troop with the Tunneling ability.

One leads the way for the others, maybe?

ErwinVonRommel
06-11-2014, 12:50 PM
When this troop deals damage an opposing champion, it deals one more damage for each other attacking troop with the Tunneling ability.

One leads the way for the others, maybe?

Ohhh banding.. the good ol'days.

the_artic_one
06-11-2014, 12:54 PM
I wonder if it's that mechanic Ben Stoll mentioned a while back where you can play a troop off the top of your deck at quick action speed.

ErwinVonRommel
06-11-2014, 12:58 PM
I like the idea of Tunneling X , this troop (or spell) moves X cards towards the top of the deck.

Now if only there was a way to get tunneling on Booby Traps....

Patrigan
06-11-2014, 01:01 PM
I wonder if it's that mechanic Ben Stoll mentioned a while back where you can play a troop off the top of your deck at quick action speed.

the beauty of it is that this is actually possible in the digital environment.

Werlix
06-11-2014, 02:53 PM
of course it can be.

It will be like the opposite of flying. flying creatures fly 'over' troops, tunneling creatures will tunnel 'under' troops

I guarantee you it definatly will be something which makes troops unblockable and is very much adopting similar path that mtg took. a very shallow, unimaginative ability.

Wow this is a new low. Criticising HexEnt for bad design on imaginary game mechanics.

If they are highlighting this mechanic I can imagine it will probably be one of these "digital only" type mechanics. I can imagine something like tunneling up through your deck. Eg "Tunelling 1", "at the start of your turn this troop moves 1 space upwards in your deck. If it is the top card of your deck, put it in your hand"

Or it could be something like, "Tunneling 3", "Play this troop facedown with 3 counters on it. While this troop is facedown it is not a troop. At the start of your turn remove 1 counter, if none remain flip this card face up."

EDIT:


I like the idea of Tunneling X , this troop (or spell) moves X cards towards the top of the deck.

Now if only there was a way to get tunneling on Booby Traps....

Damn you beat me to it lol! Just read your post after I posted...

Turtlewing
06-11-2014, 02:55 PM
Ohhh banding.. the good ol'days.

That's not banding.

Banding would be a good mechanic for hex however (the main problem with it in Magic IIRC was that no 2 people seems to have the same idea how it worked, a digital resolution system would solve that)

Zomnivore
06-11-2014, 05:20 PM
probably alot like the unblockable evasion but maybe with like a spellshield thing for when they're not attacking or blocking.

hex_colin
06-11-2014, 05:53 PM
of course it can be.

It will be like the opposite of flying. flying creatures fly 'over' troops, tunneling creatures will tunnel 'under' troops

I guarantee you it definatly will be something which makes troops unblockable and is very much adopting similar path that mtg took. a very shallow, unimaginative ability.

Of course, you're completely wrong... Have fun guessing again! ;)

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 05:57 PM
Of course, you're completely wrong... Have fun guessing again! ;)

I am curious here - can you hint at who might be the closest? I mean, close could still be WAY off, so whats the harm? :D

hex_colin
06-11-2014, 06:02 PM
I am curious here - can you hint at who might be the closest? I mean, close could still be WAY off, so whats the harm? :D

Someone is the thread nailed the key part of it (the core mechanic), but even their guess is only part of the puzzle for a lot of the cards I saw. Maybe one of the cards that's being spoiled over the next couple of days will have the answer... ;)

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 06:04 PM
Someone is the thread nailed the key part of it (the core mechanic), but even their guess is only part of the puzzle for a lot of the cards I saw. Maybe one of the cards that's being spoiled over the next couple of days will have the answer... ;)

Awesome, awesome... I am guessing you can't say who nailed it? (Can't be me, because you could just say me since I have like 5 different ideas, we could never figure out which one.)

Rokku
06-11-2014, 07:39 PM
Maybe give the first letter of who is closest? Maybe someone that starts with an "R"... :D

Vorpal
06-11-2014, 07:49 PM
Kind of surprised how little stuff we've seen in E3.

Rokku
06-11-2014, 07:59 PM
Well its somewhat dependent on gaming media reporting all the interviews taking place. We'll most likely see the write ups trickle in over the next few days.

Chadatog
06-11-2014, 09:42 PM
I just thought of something cool... What if it was like a temporary spellshield, but stronger, also blocking Extinction effects etc? I mean, they are underground... :p

I can only assume it would have to disappear once they attack, and then you possibly pay a cost to go underground again, like a mole.

What if tunneling troops are just normal troops, but you can't target or destroy them until they are attacking in combat? And after combat they vanish again? It would put a lot more pressure on people to hold combat tricks etc.

I was thinking this as well. I also want to believe that this is the "nailed" core mechanic for Tunneling that Colin was talking about. I'm thinking the cost for the troop to tunnel again (maybe even to un-tunnel) would be the most balanced. Could also be great if the tunneled cards were not visible to the opponent and they would have to remember that you still had the troop in play.

Supranatural
06-12-2014, 05:18 PM
How about all tunneling creatures come out face down and cost the same amount of resources (1 or 2), but each one has a set amount of turns it must wait until it can attack/defend.

The reason for the wait could be that the stronger creatures dwell deeper under the ground and require more time to get to the surface. Some could be used instantly to defend because they are right below the surface, but your opponent will take a risk not knowing what it is. Also, in order to not make them useless late game, you should also be able to pay 1 resource per turn left (as a quick action) to boost them to the surface.

I also believe that they should be unblockable for their first attack and untargetable until the first time they attack/defend, but are required to stay surfaced once used to attack or defend.

There could also be earthquake type spells to damage tunnelers before they surface. However, since they are all the same cost, the spell may not kill some/any of them because they are stronger creatures.

For example, the creature would have Tunneling 2 listed in text meaning that they have to wait 2 turns before surfacing. However, you can pay 2 right away to have them surface. The number goes down each turn.

Regardless of if this turns out to be tunneling or not, I think this would be a really cool feature that only works in the digital format.

Clawdius
06-12-2014, 06:28 PM
I'd like to see it be something that could really only exist in the digital space, although my concept hardly qualifies as such. Anyway, this might be neat:

Tunneling : Pay half of this creatures cost, permanently reduce the total cost of the card by half, and play the card face down on the field. This creature loses this ability and gains: Burrowed

Burrowed : Pay this creatures summoning cost and turn the card face up, this turn this creature has Speed and Unblockable. You may activate this ability any time you could play a quick action.

Yoss
06-12-2014, 06:30 PM
Maybe give the first letter of who is closest? Maybe someone that starts with an "R"... :D

It wasn't you. :)

hex_colin
06-12-2014, 06:38 PM
Kind of surprised how little stuff we've seen in E3.

Me too actually. There were quite a few more cards I thought we'd get to see. Likely just that there's a delay between the interviews with Cory and any associated articles being posted.

Xenavire
06-12-2014, 06:59 PM
Me too actually. There were quite a few more cards I thought we'd get to see. Likely just that there's a delay between the interviews with Cory and any associated articles being posted.

So we need you to leak the sites so we can go heckle them. :D

ossuary
06-12-2014, 07:20 PM
The sites are the ones Cory posted on page 1 of the E3 thread. I've checked them all within the last 4 hours, and as of then, there was still nothing posted.

Xenavire
06-12-2014, 07:29 PM
The sites are the ones Cory posted on page 1 of the E3 thread. I've checked them all within the last 4 hours, and as of then, there was still nothing posted.

Not entirely true, Gameinformer suddenly had a spoiler. That wasn't on the list IIRC. (I could be wrong, I am very tired.)

mach
06-12-2014, 07:46 PM
The sites are the ones Cory posted on page 1 of the E3 thread. I've checked them all within the last 4 hours, and as of then, there was still nothing posted.

Does anyone know how these things work? Do they do an article for each interview, or just choose a few favorites to do articles for and skip the rest?

fabriazp
06-12-2014, 08:00 PM
sound like the zergs (Starcraft) ability, but till the end of turn. preventing aggro gets wiped

AswanJaguar
06-12-2014, 08:33 PM
Does anyone know how these things work? Do they do an article for each interview, or just choose a few favorites to do articles for and skip the rest?

It's in their best interests to get as much content as possible up on their sites to drive traffic to them. During events like E3, the features get backed up since there's so many interviews and announcements happening. Too many articles, not enough interns.

Warrender
08-14-2014, 10:53 AM
Not really. They might all have the same initial cost but then have an additional cost to reveal its true nature allowing for more variation.

I just want to say I totally called this.

https://twitter.com/hacky/status/499969715242926081

Xenavire
08-14-2014, 10:55 AM
I just want to say I totally called this.

https://twitter.com/hacky/status/499969715242926081

Hmm, waiting turns as a cost... Clever, and reminds me of one of my favourite effects from MTG, suspend (although those had varying costs.)

Warrender
08-14-2014, 10:58 AM
There could also be cards that can add/subtract tunneling counters too which wouldn't surprise me a bit.

Xenavire
08-14-2014, 11:03 AM
There could also be cards that can add/subtract tunneling counters too which wouldn't surprise me a bit.

That would be cool... It would have to be an on-cast, one turn off everything in play ability, or a single target per turn ability.

Perfectblue
08-14-2014, 11:14 AM
Hmm, waiting turns as a cost... Clever, and reminds me of one of my favourite effects from MTG, suspend (although those had varying costs.)

Could suspended cards in MTG be removed by other cards such as dark banishing or wrath of god?

oncewasblind
08-14-2014, 11:23 AM
Most likely one of two things. Either just like Flight - except underground (blockable only by other creatures with Tunneling), or an effect to make them untargetable during certain phases; most likely only targetable when attacking or blocking. I believe the intent would be for tunneling cards to not be effected by global actions or abilities while tunneled, as in able to dodge Extinction and Heat Wave and the like.

Xenavire
08-14-2014, 11:23 AM
Could suspended cards in MTG be removed by other cards such as dark banishing or wrath of god?

Nope, but morph could. Fun thing is, these cards can't be removed either until they reach play (and you can't tinker with them in the void either for any shenanigans.)

EDIT: once, it has been spoiled already. You pay [2] with a certain threshold met, then wait the number of tunneling turns for it to reach play. When it reaches play it seems to act like it was just played (no speed, possibly picks up inspire?) and you cannot target or destroy them until they reach play.

Seems like you can counter them when you pay the cost.

mach
08-14-2014, 11:30 AM
EDIT: once, it has been spoiled already. You pay [2] with a certain threshold met, then wait the number of tunneling turns for it to reach play. When it reaches play it seems to act like it was just played (no speed, possibly picks up inspire?) and you cannot target or destroy them until they reach play.


Hmm. So it seems that it's like suspend in that the card isn't in play until after the turns have passed. It's just effectively using a brand new unnamed zone rather than void/exile.

Xenavire
08-14-2014, 11:31 AM
Hmm. So it seems that it's like suspend in that the card isn't in play until after the turns have passed. It's just effectively using a brand new unnamed zone rather than void/exile.

More or less, yeah, as I understand it from scavenging information. Of course, don't take any of this as gospel as it is third hand info.

OP_Kyle
08-14-2014, 11:38 AM
Hextcg.com now has an article on tunneling for you to consume!

https://hextcg.com/shattered-destiny-tunneling/

mach
08-14-2014, 11:45 AM
Looks like your opponent can see the number of turns it takes. This doesn't make much sense, since if you see a 15 you'll probably know for sure that it's that 10/10 (unless there are other 15s).

Also, it can attack immediately upon surfacing, like with suspend.

Vorpal
08-14-2014, 11:55 AM
Wow, I really like the ui in that article.

Edswor
08-14-2014, 11:59 AM
Looks like your opponent can see the number of turns it takes. This doesn't make much sense, since if you see a 15 you'll probably know for sure that it's that 10/10 (unless there are other 15s).

Your opponents can see the counters (not the total it needs).

Warrender
08-14-2014, 11:59 AM
I really like how the extra cost to tunneling isn't tied to resources but turns. It means you can still play stuff even if you are resource-screwed.

mach
08-14-2014, 12:02 PM
Your opponents can see the counters (not the total it needs).

On one of the screenshots of a tunneled card on the opponent's side, I see a 1 in blue (the number of counters, presumably) and a 3 in red (the number needed to surface, presumably).

Yoss
08-14-2014, 12:04 PM
On one of the screenshots of a tunneled card on the opponent's side, I see a 1 in blue (the number of counters, presumably) and a 3 in red (the number needed to surface, presumably).

Yeah, kinda sad that the opponent knows when it will come (and can thus guess what the card is).

Edswor
08-14-2014, 12:05 PM
On one of the screenshots of a tunneled card on the opponent's side, I see a 1 in blue (the number of counters, presumably) and a 3 in red (the number needed to surface, presumably).

The 3 are the ruby threshold, they move it and the resources to the right ;) .

ossuary
08-14-2014, 12:08 PM
It looks to me from the article that the opponent can only see how many counters you actually have. It doesn't indicate anywhere how many you need (only you know that). We see from the Tectonic Megahulk card that the number of counters you need can actually be changed on the fly in some cases, so it'll be a big shock to your opponent when that bad boy drops. Turn 2... did he just cast an Excavation Hulk? Or his Megahulk... oh god. ;)

nicosharp
08-14-2014, 12:09 PM
Wow, I really like the ui in that article.
wow, yeah, it looks really good.

AswanJaguar
08-14-2014, 12:38 PM
Tunnelling troops effectively have Speed, can't be removed by anything from set 1* and can be cast in such an order as to have them all come up on the same turn. Devious.

* Yes, they can be countermagiced when cast, but since they cost 2, they're faster than countermagic and your opponent has no idea what he's countering even if he does have the resources.

@ mach & Yoss, the [3] you see in the screenshot is indeed the ruby threshold. All of the thresholds have been moved next to the deck in the new UI. I'm digging the changes they've made and look forward to more polish and refinement.

Xenavire
08-14-2014, 12:39 PM
Tunnelling troops effectively have Speed, can't be removed by anything from set 1* and can be cast in such an order as to have them all come up on the same turn. Devious.

* Yes, they can be countermagiced when cast, but since they cost 2, they're faster than countermagic and your opponent has no idea what he's countering even if he does have the resources.

They can attack the turn they hit play? Better than I thought. Any way to check if they can pick up inspire triggers etc?

Yoss
08-14-2014, 12:41 PM
I'm not at all sure that you can interrupt a tunneling ability on the chain. You're not "casting" the card, you're activating an ability on the card.

AswanJaguar
08-14-2014, 12:41 PM
They can attack the turn they hit play? Better than I thought. Any way to check if they can pick up inspire triggers etc?

Yup, and given how the article says they 'enter play' when the tunneling requirement is met, I don't see why they wouldn't pick up inspire triggers. Not to mention most of the tunnelers have very high standard casting costs, so they pick up ALL of the triggers.


I'm not at all sure that you can interrupt a tunneling ability on the chain. You're not "casting" the card, you're activating an ability on the card.

Good point. We'll need some clarification on when/if these cards can be countermagiced.

Xenavire
08-14-2014, 12:43 PM
Yup, and given how the article says they 'enter play' when the tunneling requirement is met, I don't see why they wouldn't pick up inspire triggers. Not to mention most of the tunnelers have very high standard casting costs, so they pick up ALL of the triggers.



Good point. We'll need some clarification on when/if these cards can be countermagiced.

That is sexy as shit.

Yoss
08-14-2014, 12:45 PM
Dwarven Inspire?

Xenavire
08-14-2014, 12:51 PM
Dwarven Inspire?

Why not? The actual costs don't go down like in the standard dwarf 'ramp', so you pick up all sorts of neat sapphire and ruby buffs.

AswanJaguar
08-14-2014, 12:56 PM
Why not? The actual costs don't go down like in the standard dwarf 'ramp', so you pick up all sorts of neat sapphire and ruby buffs.

Like flying Tectonic Megahulks with Swiftstrike and "When this troop stomps your opponent's face in, draw a card for lols."

Xenavire
08-14-2014, 12:57 PM
Like flying Tectonic Megahulks with Swiftstrike and "When this troop stomps your opponent's face in, draw a card for lols."

Sure. Or you could use the much easier to use ones, like the dwarf that grants +1/+1 and flight - it picks up a ton of inspires, gives a bomb flight, then you rip everything to shreds.

Yoss
08-14-2014, 01:02 PM
Like flying Tectonic Megahulks with Swiftstrike and "When this troop stomps your opponent's face in, draw a card for lols."

"When this troop gets Repelled by your opponent, draw a card." :)

AswanJaguar
08-14-2014, 01:04 PM
"When this troop gets Repelled by your opponent, draw a card." :)

http://25.media.tumblr.com/52e29ba107ea33908489aff91fd4e5ad/tumblr_mi8sibbCS31rem27uo1_r1_250.gif

Yoss
08-14-2014, 01:09 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/52e29ba107ea33908489aff91fd4e5ad/tumblr_mi8sibbCS31rem27uo1_r1_250.gif

Can't view tumblr.

AswanJaguar
08-14-2014, 01:12 PM
Can't view tumblr.

This, but with Jon Stewart:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/127912/barrowman-shakes-fist-o.gif

Xenavire
08-14-2014, 01:46 PM
This, but with Jon Stewart:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/127912/barrowman-shakes-fist-o.gif

This one is better tbh.

AswanJaguar
08-14-2014, 01:51 PM
Back on topic:

How does one best utilize tunneling? I can see it as being an answer to board sweepers like Heat Wave and Extinction. Timed correctly, you can pressure your opponent to clear the board while your troop is underground. Alternatively, you can use it in conjunction with board sweepers. Time your sweeper for the turn before your tunneling troops come out and you have a massive tempo advantage. Sprinkle some inspire and a Blessing of the Fallen in there and you're on your way.

pinkshirtbadman
08-14-2014, 02:00 PM
Tunnelling troops effectively have Speed, can't be removed by anything from set 1*.

What about Solitary Exile or Time ripple?

Although neither might be the best idea as Time Ripple wont effect the actual cost they pay, will increase printed resource cost which will allow it to pick up extra inspire, and won't remove counters. All it will really cost them is another 2 resources - which may be enough, but that's a lot of negatives just to cost the other player 2
Solitary Exile puts the card back in play when it is voided, which depending on exactly how tunneling is defined as "in play" might put the card in play face up? (although if this was the case what would stop you from Solitary exiling your own card with a means of then also bouncing the box?)

Xenavire
08-14-2014, 02:07 PM
What about Solitary Exile or Time ripple?

Although neither might be the best idea as Time Ripple wont effect the actual cost they pay, will increase printed resource cost which will allow it to pick up extra inspire, and won't remove counters. All it will really cost them is another 2 resources - which may be enough, but that's a lot of negatives just to cost the other player 2
Solitary Exile puts the card back in play when it is voided, which depending on exactly how tunneling is defined as "in play" might put the card in play face up? (although if this was the case what would stop you from Solitary exiling your own card with a means of then also bouncing the box?)

Nothing can target a card that is tunneling. Board wipes don't touch them. You cannot exile or ripple it until it hits play.

There might be a specific set 2 card that interacts with them, however.

AswanJaguar
08-14-2014, 02:08 PM
What about Solitary Exile or Time ripple?

Although neither might be the best idea as Time Ripple wont effect the actual cost they pay, will increase printed resource cost which will allow it to pick up extra inspire, and won't remove counters. All it will really cost them is another 2 resources - which may be enough, but that's a lot of negatives just to cost the other player 2
Solitary Exile puts the card back in play when it is voided, which depending on exactly how tunneling is defined as "in play" might put the card in play face up? (although if this was the case what would stop you from Solitary exiling your own card with a means of then also bouncing the box?)

Fair points. I don't really consider Time Ripple removal since it's coming right back down the next turn. Exile will work, but the troop will still get to do its thing for a turn before you get to remove it, and it will get its comes-into-play effect again if the Exile goes away.

Yoss
08-14-2014, 02:09 PM
I'd be surprised if you can even target them.

Solitary Exile puts the card back in play when it is voided, which depending on exactly how tunneling is defined as "in play" might put the card in play face up? (although if this was the case what would stop you from Solitary exiling your own card with a means of then also bouncing the box?)
This would be convoluted enough that I really don't think it would be a problem. Go ahead and cheat out your megahulk with a 3 card combo. I'll just Repel when you swing. :)

pinkshirtbadman
08-14-2014, 02:10 PM
Ahh, I missed the part where they can't be targeted.
Although I should have guessed, if they technically aren't "in play" (as they must not be since the scraptech brawler's ability of "when enter's play" triggers upon being flipped face up) that makes sense.

pinkshirtbadman
08-14-2014, 02:12 PM
I'd be surprised if you can even target them.

This would be convoluted enough that I really don't think it would be a problem. Go ahead and cheat out your megahulk with a 3 card combo. I'll just Repel when you swing. :)

Convoluted sure, but if you could get a huge troop out in a turn or two that way? If you're going to repel it when I utilize a crazy combo to get it out quickly, chances are you would do so when I wait however many turns anyway.

Yoss
08-14-2014, 02:16 PM
Convoluted sure, but if you could get a huge troop out in a turn or two that way? If you're going to repel it when I utilize a crazy combo to get it out quickly, chances are you would do so when I wait however many turns anyway.

If all you get out of a 3-card, DDS, 7-cost combo is a single (very large) troop, that's really not going to break the game. Earliest play is:
T1: Sapph/Diam
T2: Sapph/Diam (whichever you didn't play T1), tunnel
T3: Diam, exile
T4: ripple, swing for 10.

Nothing to sneeze at, sure, but not gonna ruin the meta.

Marsden
08-14-2014, 02:17 PM
Q: Can you interrupt a tunnelled card? either 1 - when it starts tunnelling or 2 - when it finally comes into play?

Yoss
08-14-2014, 02:18 PM
Q: Can you interrupt a tunnelled card? either 1 - when it starts tunnelling or 2 - when it finally comes into play?

Not sure, but my gut says "no" to both.

pinkshirtbadman
08-14-2014, 02:32 PM
If all you get out of a 3-card, DDS, 7-cost combo is a single (very large) troop, that's really not going to break the game. Earliest play is:
T1: Sapph/Diam
T2: Sapph/Diam (whichever you didn't play T1), tunnel
T3: Diam, exile
T4: ripple, swing for 10.

Nothing to sneeze at, sure, but not gonna ruin the meta.
That's definitely true. I wasn't necessarily thinking if it was game breaking or not, but if in general it would be theoretically possible to do to yourself (with new cards the combo may be far easier to obtain with things like the new troop that does the same effect if she's inspired, any unseen new cards). Even though it seems it's a moot point anyway since it seems the tunneled troop wouldn't be target-able I was initially thinking (obviously unreasonable combo to happen in a real game) of chaining Solitary exiles to exile themselves, giving you the box back to exile another tunneled troop

ossuary
08-14-2014, 03:35 PM
They can attack the turn they hit play? Better than I thought. Any way to check if they can pick up inspire triggers etc?

Confirmed in the article that they can attack when they come into play, and when they come into play, it counts as coming into play (so they would be inspired).


I'm not at all sure that you can interrupt a tunneling ability on the chain. You're not "casting" the card, you're activating an ability on the card.

One of the devs already confirmed (to hacky I believe) that they can be countered when cast.


Not sure, but my gut says "no" to both.

They can be countered when cast, but NOT when the tunneling resolves (we may still see as yet unspoiled in-set interactions that let you deal with them in some other way, however).

Yoss
08-14-2014, 03:44 PM
One of the devs already confirmed (to hacky I believe) that they can be countered when cast.

Good to know, thanks!