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View Full Version : My Set 1 cards are concerned about their double backs



Vorpal
06-11-2014, 08:22 AM
Is getting double backs up and running a high priority? I know it's quite reasonable to give AH and trading a higher priority, I'm not asking it to be top of the heap.

I've been kind of holding off on drafting much for a while because I know everything I do now will not contribute to my cards double backs, and the double backs are a really neat feature to which I am greatly looking forward.

However, now it seems the release of set 2 will follow very closely on the heels of double backs being implemented - or may even precede it?

This will move drafts from being 3 set 1 packs to being 2 set 2 packs and 1 set 1 packs...which at a stroke makes completing double back conditions for set 1 cards three times as hard.

I'd rush to get in ton of set 1 drafting before set 2 hits but I keep telling myself anything I do now is a waste from a double back stand point, which makes me a bit sad. Curse being a completionist!

Sadeyx
06-11-2014, 08:32 AM
I agree with your sentiments.

But presumably it will be in before august. at least, it better had be! lol

Right now im not playing hex at all, if the only thing to do is spend money on drafts, i'll wait at least until doubleback.

cferejohn
06-11-2014, 08:36 AM
Sorry, can someone explain what a "double back" is?

Ju66ernaut
06-11-2014, 08:50 AM
Here you are John

https://hextcg.com/double-back/

knightofeffect
06-11-2014, 08:53 AM
I am legitimately concerned about doublebacks as well. The amount of work involved in creating a set of doubleback achievements for a single card seems pretty involved, let along getting all the stat-tracking and display options working for the system in general.

Adding more and more cards only increases the glut of work that needs to be done before this system can really get running whereas after it is already running, adding the doubleback features would simply become part of the set-implementation workflow.

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 08:54 AM
Is getting double backs up and running a high priority? I know it's quite reasonable to give AH and trading a higher priority, I'm not asking it to be top of the heap.

I've been kind of holding off on drafting much for a while because I know everything I do now will not contribute to my cards double backs, and the double backs are a really neat feature to which I am greatly looking forward.

However, now it seems the release of set 2 will follow very closely on the heels of double backs being implemented - or may even precede it?

This will move drafts from being 3 set 1 packs to being 2 set 2 packs and 1 set 1 packs...which at a stroke makes completing double back conditions for set 1 cards three times as hard.

I'd rush to get in ton of set 1 drafting before set 2 hits but I keep telling myself anything I do now is a waste from a double back stand point, which makes me a bit sad. Curse being a completionist!

I am sad about every cool thing I have done that hasn't been recorded. But any new feature is progress.

If they follow their own milestone list, doublebacks are coming very soon. If things have changed, they will probably come around the first PvE content.

mach
06-11-2014, 09:03 AM
Since we haven't heard anything about them yet (and they are in the habit of announcing stuff in advance now) and the AH preview doesn't support searching for DB features, it doesn't look like it's happening before Set 2. So I'd say September at the earliest. At the latest, not until PvE.

mudkip
06-11-2014, 09:04 AM
I thought I read a (Cory?) post saying double backs would be after trading?

mach
06-11-2014, 09:06 AM
I thought I read a (Cory?) post saying double backs would be after trading?

got a link? "After trading" can mean "right after trading" or "not before trading."

mudkip
06-11-2014, 09:08 AM
got a link? "After trading" can mean "right after trading" or "not before trading."

No :( Just a feeling in the back of mind. It's entirely possible I dreamed it.

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 09:11 AM
I think it was a Cory blog, and there were things still before double backs (all of which will be landing soon.) So we have no idea if it is on track or not.

nicosharp
06-11-2014, 09:51 AM
Using the Spectrum of:
We need this right now, to who cares. This goes beyond who cares.

cferejohn
06-11-2014, 09:52 AM
Ah, so in terms of things that actually affect game play it's a PvE thing.

cferejohn
06-11-2014, 09:53 AM
Using the Spectrum of:
We need this right now, to who cares. This goes beyond who cares.

...for you. I don't care about it either, but I'm lucky in that the thing I care most about is drafting and, well, we can do that.

nicosharp
06-11-2014, 09:55 AM
Ah, so in terms of things that actually affect game play it's a PvE thing.

Lol. yes. and is treated as such. I am giving you the Carebear stare right now.. (how da fk I remember that saying... wow, just wow)

Soken
06-11-2014, 11:07 AM
These give you animated cards and full artwork cards right? Pretty excited to have them : o

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 11:13 AM
These give you animated cards and full artwork cards right? Pretty excited to have them : o

Full art for achievements, and foil for leveling up I think? Or flipped. But no animated cards from double backs so far.

mudkip
06-11-2014, 11:15 AM
I don't think there's been any word on animated cards, but yet to Extended Art.

It's also a fun way of giving your cards a soul by having them each record their statistics.

cferejohn
06-11-2014, 11:19 AM
I don't think there's been any word on animated cards, but yet to Extended Art.

It's also a fun way of giving your cards a soul by having them each record their statistics.

That does sound pretty cool to me, despite being someone who is on the "oh, the cards have art? there is a story?" end of the gameplay/theme spectrum.

Dralon
06-11-2014, 01:00 PM
Greatly looking forward to the double back and subsequent extended art and foil features. At the same time I would nt stop doing something I enjoy, like drafting, just to wait on it. It would be like waiting to play anymore of my favorite MMO because monitoring of Achievements isn't in yet. A lot of MMOs launched without a full, or any achievement system, so I look at this the same way. As a PVE feature that I would hope comes near Pve launch

Vorpal
06-11-2014, 02:35 PM
Why is it a pve feature? Aren't PvP cards going to have it? I was told it would count things like 'number of drafts won with this card in your deck' and such things.

If it only exists for pve cards I'm much less interested.

I'ts also a possible way to give normally worthless commons/uncommons some love. You are supposed to be able to unlock extended art via completing the double back achievements, and it might be worth something to some people to have all their common/uncommon staples have the nice extended art, even if they don't have the time to do all the achievements themselves.

Zomnivore
06-11-2014, 03:16 PM
The further the set progresses the harder it will be to trigger double backs...so I do agree this is a serious concern.

Rendakor
06-11-2014, 03:20 PM
At the very least I think they need to get the stat tracking features implemented; the act of displaying them on the double back itself, and the rewards for doing things, can wait longer as long as we know that our tournament wins are being counted.

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 03:33 PM
At the very least I think they need to get the stat tracking features implemented; the act of displaying them on the double back itself, and the rewards for doing things, can wait longer as long as we know that our tournament wins are being counted.

We already know they are able to track some things, so maybe this is close to being complete? I sure hope so.

Clawdius
06-11-2014, 03:55 PM
It's always somewhat troublesome when situations of this nature arise, I know in Guild Wars I wound up winning well over 1000 matches in the Random Arena, and then they announced achievements and title tracks and lo and behold all of my accomplishments were for nothing. I'd like to think that they've been tracking some of the double back info for cards before we can view the doubleback, but at the same time that punishes people who thought that none of that would be relevant until after the doubleback was released.

I hope there is at least one more official announcement coming from E3, especially since the theme of E3 2014 seems to be "we listened to you" (http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/06/11/the-running-theme-of-e3-2014-we-listened-to-you/)

Banquetto
06-11-2014, 04:11 PM
I've never been able to figure out why anyone has ever considered double-backs to be "a PvE thing".

Have a look at https://hextcg.com/double-back/ and you will see the planned features fall into two categories.

The first category is stuff that is equally relevant in PvP and PvE. Some of the achievements, the statistics, and the leveling up of the card to unlock alternate art. If you play constructed PvP, then you will build up these things in constructed PvP. If you play primarily PvE (when it exists), then you will build up these things in PvE.

The second category is stuff which is only relevant in PvP. Look at the achievements on that Pack Raptor example. "Win 10 tournament games with this card in your deck". Look at the section on badges: "The badge section houses trophies awarded to cards that were in your deck when you won a tournament. Each of the trophies calls out the event and date. The more prestigious events mark cards with beautiful, elaborate trophies." This stuff is 100% PvP and nothing to do with PvE.

The only thing I can think of is that the PvP stuff isn't particularly relevant to draft PvP - you're only going to be able to use a card in one draft tournament, the one you draft it in. And from reading these forums, I get the strong impression that for many players, draft is the only thing that matters in this game. I suspect CZE could actually throw away everything except draft tournaments and lot of players wouldn't care or indeed notice. :)

Edit: One other thing.. it troubles me a little that AH is coming before double-backs.. given than in all the discussions on these forums about how the AH would work, probably the biggest point of contention was how it would handle cards with achievements and XP. I really, really hope that this is being factored into the AH design even though the achievements and XP don't exist yet.

Yoss
06-11-2014, 05:04 PM
At the very least I think they need to get the stat tracking features implemented; the act of displaying them on the double back itself, and the rewards for doing things, can wait longer as long as we know that our tournament wins are being counted.

That would certainly be nice.


it troubles me a little that AH is coming before double-backs.. given than in all the discussions on these forums about how the AH would work, probably the biggest point of contention was how it would handle cards with achievements and XP. I really, really hope that this is being factored into the AH design even though the achievements and XP don't exist yet.

Yeah, it's sad to be stuck with a traditional auction system (TAS) when the first reason Chark gave for choosing it over a bid/ask system (BAS) was the double back features. (He later recanted and said BAS, as described in the link in my sig, was indeed better if he could afford the dev time; which he can't.)

mudkip
06-11-2014, 07:51 PM
That does sound pretty cool to me, despite being someone who is on the "oh, the cards have art? there is a story?" end of the gameplay/theme spectrum.

Even if you just play for PvP, it would be cool for you cards to have "Won a tournament!" achievements.

RobHaven
06-11-2014, 08:40 PM
This is second in my heart (behind only pvp); I neeeeeed stat tracking.
I'm starting to feel pretty neglected. :(

Oroniss
06-11-2014, 09:10 PM
Yeah, as a collector and completionist I was really hoping this would be in with enough time for me to get many (or most) of the achievements for set 1 out of the way before more cards came along.

Oh well, just means there is going to be an even bigger binge on Hex when they do get put in.

deathandtexas
06-12-2014, 02:32 AM
I still don't get how Set 1 is "finished" when double-backs and equipment are not in the game... maybe next year.

Sadeyx
06-12-2014, 04:28 AM
Using the Spectrum of:
We need this right now, to who cares. This goes beyond who cares.

What a horrible thing to say in a thread full of people who do indeed 'passionatly' care!

because its not in yet, there really is no point in playing, unless you have a bottomless wallet and have nothing better to do with your time.

and because im not playing, im not spending, and if im not playing and spending then I'm certainly not talking or reccomending it to friendst. But dont worry, I guess in your imagination noone at Cryptozoic cares about that either?

We get that its in beta and these things take time, but to come into a thread and make sweeping statements about the entire community and how that not one single person cares, not even cryptozoic equates to nothing but an attempt at aggrivating an argument, provoking an emotional response... otherwise known as trolling.

grats on trying to drag the community down.

hexinggems
06-12-2014, 05:10 AM
Using the Spectrum of:
We need this right now, to who cares. This goes beyond who cares.

I actually care about this one alot too, there are alot of us outside the hardcore PVP crowd where features like these are what drew us to the game

Warrender
06-12-2014, 05:36 AM
I actually care about this one alot too, there are alot of us outside the hardcore PVP crowd where features like these are what drew us to the game

Oooh, guild in-fighting!!!!! :eek:

But, seriously, since there's not a lot of Constructed going on at the moment and no PVE, how much data are we losing out on without double-backs? I'd worry about it when Constructed gets a bigger scene and even more when PVE goes in. But that's just me.

nicosharp
06-12-2014, 08:15 AM
I actually care about this one alot too, there are alot of us outside the hardcore PVP crowd where features like these are what drew us to the game
My posts yesterday were pretty cynical and sarcastic. I feel like the announcement of set 2 was untimely, and using this spectrum, a lot of shit was thrown to the who cares wall. There are a ton of features that need to be in the game before additional monetized content. Lets just say I am not trying to be a dick about it, I am just as upset and concerned and as frustrated of this feature being delayed as I am with having no information on PvE.

Clawdius
06-12-2014, 05:52 PM
My posts yesterday were pretty cynical and sarcastic. I feel like the announcement of set 2 was untimely, and using this spectrum, a lot of shit was thrown to the who cares wall. There are a ton of features that need to be in the game before additional monetized content. Lets just say I am not trying to be a dick about it, I am just as upset and concerned and as frustrated of this feature being delayed as I am with having no information on PvE.Awwww, don't be so concerned, why according to update 15 we'll see a PVE livestream "further in the future"! Why, that could mean any time now, or I guess technically it also includes the bit of the future which comes shortly after the heat death of the universe.

I certainly understand your frustration, it's like we hired people to build our dreamhouse and when we are ready to move in the entire place is under a fumigation tent. We just have to take their word for it that there's a house under there, and here they are telling us about the wonderful furniture their company has made just for us. I know no one wants to live in a house infested with termites or anything, but I mean, I was kind of expecting to have a house before I started decorating... I guess a lawn chair might give me a nice place to sit down. Now I guess I'm just hoping it doesn't rain.

Which I guess in that analogy the WotC lawsuit is that thunderhead in the distance... Well, here's to hoping the wind doesn't shift.

EntropyBall
06-12-2014, 10:27 PM
For those asking about it, I've read somewhere that they are not tracking double-back info until it is implemented. So no point in hoping that everything you are currently doing is being tracked.

I'm still a little confused about the way it will even work. From most of what they've revealed, it doesn't seem like you will be able to unlock much by drafting, since the cards in the draft will always be brand new to you. You can't be leveling up your favorite copy of Burn when you take a new one in draft. My impression was always that it was tracked on individual card level. i.e. "You won X tournaments with this Burn", not "You won X tournaments with a Burn in your deck" With the way I'm playing the game now (nothing but draft until PVE is out), I wouldn't really make double-back progress anyway.

Banquetto
06-12-2014, 10:43 PM
I'm still a little confused about the way it will even work. From most of what they've revealed, it doesn't seem like you will be able to unlock much by drafting, since the cards in the draft will always be brand new to you. You can't be leveling up your favorite copy of Burn when you take a new one in draft. My impression was always that it was tracked on individual card level. i.e. "You won X tournaments with this Burn", not "You won X tournaments with a Burn in your deck" With the way I'm playing the game now (nothing but draft until PVE is out), I wouldn't really make double-back progress anyway.

That's how I understand it. Doublebacks are relevant to competitive constructed PvP, casual PvP, and PvE. Not to draft and sealed PvP.

Gwaer
06-12-2014, 11:11 PM
Another major feature we need before double backs are in, is the ability to select exactly which of our 700 copies of repel are in this deck, and which are on the AH. Treating cards like interchangeable commodities is exactly what I wanted to avoid with this AH.

Aradon
06-12-2014, 11:34 PM
Another major feature we need before double backs are in, is the ability to select exactly which of our 700 copies of repel are in this deck, and which are on the AH. Treating cards like interchangeable commodities is exactly what I wanted to avoid with this AH.

That shouldn't be difficult. When in a deck, you can tab through multiple copies of a single card with the gem slot feature. I imagine that this interface will be expanded to every card so that you can select individual ones based on their doubleback. I would expect this to be one of the lesser problems with implementing the doubleback. I'm more concerned about the achievements portion, which means creating 3 achievements for every set 1 card, a means of checking that achievement in a game, a whole achievement tracking system, and the achievement interface itself (maybe just limited to the doubleback).

Wader
06-13-2014, 05:11 AM
I'd rush to get in ton of set 1 drafting before set 2 hits but I keep telling myself anything I do now is a waste from a double back stand point, which makes me a bit sad. Curse being a completionist!

I don't know if I'd hold off Drafting until double backs are in. Since the double backs will be for an individual card, the most you will get out of a draft is 9 games with that individual card, not really enough to unlock many of the double back achievements. You'll get some of them sure, but each draft will give you cards with fresh backs. Constructed tournaments are where you'll unlock a majority of the achievements I feel.

hammer
06-13-2014, 05:19 AM
I still prefer the unlocks and achievement tracking to be account associated rather than card associated. It simplifies so much. Yes you cant profiteer by levelling cards I get that. But equally it shows that you earned an unlock rather than simply bought it and it saves having to track specific cards you use in your deck etc. If you get the achievement on account the unlock applies to all copies of that card you own.

AstaSyneri
06-13-2014, 06:00 AM
Right now I wouldn't even know which one of my several Raptors I have in my fun Raptor deck (or any other card). The double back for me really is a side show, though compared to dungeons and raids. I don't mind just having an arena to play unconnected games with, as long as it yields... something (gp, items, etc.).

There is one mitigating factor, though: In order to bring us PvE, the entire PvE infrastructure needs to be in place to get the first tidbit out. Turning this thought around, this means that once the infrastructure is in fact in place, getting additional dungeons/PvE content will come much more quickly!

Svenn
06-13-2014, 06:34 AM
I still prefer the unlocks and achievement tracking to be account associated rather than card associated. It simplifies so much. Yes you cant profiteer by levelling cards I get that. But equally it shows that you earned an unlock rather than simply bought it and it saves having to track specific cards you use in your deck etc. If you get the achievement on account the unlock applies to all copies of that card you own.
I would like to see both. As a general fan of stats, it would be nice to have tracking at the account level for "This is what I've accomplished" and tracking at the card level for "This is what has been done with this card." They can be different things, mostly.

Lukezors
06-13-2014, 07:08 AM
I would like to see both. As a general fan of stats, it would be nice to have tracking at the account level for "This is what I've accomplished" and tracking at the card level for "This is what has been done with this card." They can be different things, mostly.

While I also would vastly prefer account level achievements, etc for double backs, I'd be alot happier with card level stuff if this existed.

YourOpponent
06-13-2014, 08:37 AM
I think many of us are looking forward to Double Backs, but the thing is that it seems to me that it would be easier and more logical to have set 2 out and maybe even PvE before double backs. Why do I think that? Because at least with set 2 out that means more money for them. That money could be used to hire more people so that there could be a team working on double backs while having a team working on PvE equipment, and of course a team working on PvE.

As things are I really don't think that set 3 should be focused on really. Sure a small crew to toy around with it and make some progress, but with another 100 or so cards from set 2 being introduced...that gives SOME new cards for us to toy around with and help keep us busy while they focus on things that are more core. Yes I know they have people working on PvE already, but let's say it's a million dollars from set 2 when it comes out....that would help them get a PvE raid team going on while there's a PvE dungeon team.

Vorpal
06-13-2014, 10:37 AM
I'm not sure how the achievements and stuff work, honestly. When they say 'this card' do they mean, 'this particular buccaneer' or do they mean 'any buccaneer'.

It would seem very strange to be tracking achievements separately for every one of the millions upon millions of cards in the game.

How would you even sort through these in the UI?

How would I find my 4 'highest exp' buccaneers in my pile of 200 buccanneers and add those to my deck? Right now, to add 4 buccaneers to my deck, I click the buccaneer pile four times. Done. If each one had their own achievement tracking, I guess I'd have to open the pile, like you do for socketed cards, then slowly scroll through them, one at a time, click the button to look at the double back, and then if it was the one I wanted, add it to my deck. I'd have to look at all 200 guys. No thanks.

Right now, all cards of the same type are interchangeable. Double backs tracked on an individual card level would completely change that, and would thus presumably involve a LOT of coding work.

Gwaer
06-13-2014, 10:42 AM
They meant this particular buccaneer originally. We'll see if it makes it into the game like that.

hex_colin
06-13-2014, 10:43 AM
I'm not sure how the achievements and stuff work, honestly. When they say 'this card' do they mean, 'this particular buccaneer' or do they mean 'any buccaneer'.

It would seem very strange to be tracking achievements separately for every one of the millions upon millions of cards in the game.

How would you even sort through these in the UI?

How would I find my 4 'highest exp' buccaneers in my pile of 200 buccanneers and add those to my deck? Right now, to add 4 buccaneers to my deck, I click the buccaneer pile four times. Done. If each one had their own achievement tracking, I guess I'd have to open the pile, like you do for socketed cards, then slowly scroll through them, one at a time, click the button to look at the double back, and then if it was the one I wanted, add it to my deck. I'd have to look at all 200 guys. No thanks.

Right now, all cards of the same type are interchangeable. Double backs tracked on an individual card level would completely change that, and would thus presumably involve a LOT of coding work.

So, those are exactly the challenges they're trying to solve - that was the promise of the KS. Which is why it's taking a significant amount of time.

Vorpal
06-13-2014, 11:15 AM
I must have not picked up on that aspect of double backs initially. I thought all cards of the same type shared the same double back.

In this case, double backs involves completely changing the way we think of, manipulate, and use cards. It's probably much farther away than we think.

The current interface can't even being to support anything other than treating all cards of the same type as interchangeable.

Warrender
06-13-2014, 11:35 AM
As I understood it, it was on the individual card level. Kind of what Scrolls is doing now with its crafted scrolls.

Svenn
06-13-2014, 12:44 PM
I must have not picked up on that aspect of double backs initially. I thought all cards of the same type shared the same double back.

In this case, double backs involves completely changing the way we think of, manipulate, and use cards. It's probably much farther away than we think.

The current interface can't even being to support anything other than treating all cards of the same type as interchangeable.
It's always been individual card tracking. That's why there have been threads about whether leveled up or unused (pristine) cards would be valuable at all, or whether cards that were used in a winning major tournament deck (which will have those trophies tied to the specific cards) will be valuable. But yeah, this has all been known from the beginning.