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View Full Version : AH Idea: No Listing Fees or at least Refundable Listing Fees



Yoss
06-11-2014, 06:04 PM
- AH fee structure: we are looking at 3-5% fee on sold items. There will likely be a listing fee to prevent people spamming items that are unlikely to sell.

PREFACE: Listing fees are bad business. Listing fees mean that a player who has no currency (especially from f2p) will be unable to create a listing in order to obtain said currency (which is horribly backwards). Furthermore, I would argue that listing fees crush market liquidity by scaring away potential market makers (AKA "sellers" if you're talking traditional auctions). Even further, I would argue that "to prevent people spamming items that are unlikely to sell" is actually not a useful goal unless your infrastructure is weaker than it should be. As the AH owner, one should want there to be millions of listings! The more activity on your market, the more stuff you have for customers to shop through, the more potential sales moments you have, the more acutal sales you have, and the more money you're making. Ebay realized this and removed their listing fees, at least for standard users (and they have special deals for Ebay businesses).

IDEA: If the preface argument above is not persuasive, and you (Chark) still believe we must have listing fees, please consider this variation on that idea. I believe I have an idea that will cover the desire for spam prevention and somewhat cover the desire for liquidity. My idea is to have the selling fee be taken out up front based on the Buyout price, then refund it if the item does not sell. This will feel somewhat like a listing fee, because you have to put in a deposit, and it will put a practical limit on how many listings a player can make.

DRAWBACKS: It will still have the downside of limiting liquidity, but not as much as having an actual listing fee in addition to selling fees. A player with no currency will still be unable to list, just like it would be with normal listing fees.

Please discuss both this idea and AH fee structures in general. Thank you.

EDIT (from page 3 of this thread):

There are no listing fees on the AH primarily because we we quickly realized that it doesn't work for the F2P players.

We are going to take 5% rounded down to the nearest whole currency denomination:

Example:
10 plat sale would result in a 0.5 plat fee rounded down to 0 plat
19 plat sale would result in a 0.95 plat fee rounded down to 0 plat
20 plat sale would result in a 1.00 plat fee.
25 plat sale would result in a 1.25 plat fee rounded down to 1 plat

/thread

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 06:10 PM
Not sure how viable it would be, but couldn't they just take the fee off the completed transaction? I mean, the buyer buys the item, and the seller gets their cut, which is the whole thing minus the 5ish% (probably less) that HexEnt takes. I think this is standard for Paypal and a few other major real life transaction fees, and it means someone could list anything at all, with no currency.

I can only assume there is a flaw to this I am not seeing, or you would have brought it up, so have at it.

Gorgol
06-11-2014, 06:11 PM
I say the opposite, refund it if it does sell, because clearly these people aren't spamming crap that won't sell. If I have enough platinum/gold and I know I get the listing fee back if it doesn't sell, where is it stopping me from listing the garbage anyway?

funktion
06-11-2014, 06:12 PM
How does a refundable up-front deposit help players that don't have any currency.

Doesn't seem like you provide a solution which fixes the very first argument you bring up against them to begin with.

Barkam
06-11-2014, 06:13 PM
I agree with Gorgol. But my ideal solution is no listing fee. Just make sure you have robust filtering tools.

Gorgol
06-11-2014, 06:14 PM
I agree with Gorgol. But my ideal solution is no listing fee. Just make sure you have robust filtering tools.

Oh, I agree too, but if there must be one, then it should reward people who are using the Auction House properly, not those who aren't.

Off-Topic Edit: I just want to see if they made the rookie mistake of being able to bid negative amounts and getting that amount back like a few other games have.

mach
06-11-2014, 06:16 PM
IIRC the listing fees on the WoW AH are refunded if the item sells. Given how closely the Hex AH seems to be modeled on the WoW one, I expect the same to be true here.

Skirovik
06-11-2014, 06:22 PM
There should be no listing fees.

I spent all my forseeable Hex money on the Kickstarter. I do NOT want to have to spend more money just to sell my items. That's ridiculous. Just take your % from the final sale as said in the first sentence (3-5%) and be done with it.

If you have setup a system where I can search for cards I want, then who cares what people are listing items for? The only issue spamming has is if I can't search. If I can't search, you don't have an Auction House, you have a garage sale.

Yoss
06-11-2014, 06:37 PM
If you have setup a system where I can search for cards I want, then who cares what people are listing items for? The only issue spamming has is if I can't search. If I can't search, you don't have an Auction House, you have a garage sale.

That pretty much sums up my PREFACE. The IDEA is a last resort fall back position in case we get stuck with listing fees despite listing fees being a terrible idea.


How does a refundable up-front deposit help players that don't have any currency.

Doesn't seem like you provide a solution which fixes the very first argument you bring up against them to begin with.

The OP already admits that it doesn't help that particular part of the problem brought up in the PREFACE. However, it would help boost liquidity a little bit over standard listing fees. I would far prefer no listing fees at all and bump up the back end fees if needed.

Hibbert
06-11-2014, 06:51 PM
Since the listing fee is designed to "prevent people spamming items that are unlikely to sell", how about a listing fee on items that are unlikely to sell? If someone posts a card for 20%* more than the lowest price, that would require a fee. Likewise, if someone wants to post 500* of the same common, while there are already 100* in the AH, that would require some listing fees. *All numbers just for illustrative purposes.*

I think it would be fairly easy to set up a listing fee system that serves as a deterrent to abusive/stupid listings while ignoring the small time sellers that only want to sell a few things for a fair price.

Extraneous listings, even with proper filtering tools, do end up eating up system resources if nothing else. Listing fees are a good way to make sure people aren't stupid/abusive with their listings. Refunding listing fees on non-sales wouldn't curb the issue at all.

Rokku
06-11-2014, 07:29 PM
Have a starting cap on how many you can list concurrently which can increase based on a reputation system of successful past transactions.

E.g.
Starting limit of 20 cards. Once you have sold 20 cards with a list to sell ratio greater than 20% it will increase to 40 cards.

mach
06-11-2014, 07:34 PM
Have a starting cap on how many you can list concurrently which can increase based on a reputation system of successful past transactions.


That doesn't do much in a game with free accounts.

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 07:38 PM
That doesn't do much in a game with free accounts.

It's hard not to agree here... So I will just agree. You can't set up arbitrary systems like that, simply on the basis that accounts are free and have no form of sub required to play.

Arbiter
06-11-2014, 07:41 PM
Any fees, entry or exit, on the AH just mean that once trading goes live people will be spamming and organising trades in that.

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 07:45 PM
Any fees, entry or exit, on the AH just mean that once trading goes live people will be spamming and organising trades in that.

People will do that either way. That doesn't stop Wow (as an example) from having a healthy AH.

mach
06-11-2014, 07:47 PM
People will be willing to pay a convenience fee for the AH. Most people won't bother spending an hour in trade chat to save a few pennies in AH fees.

This assumes, of course, that the AH fees are reasonable.

CGOOnline
06-11-2014, 07:57 PM
I think my biggest question is what determines "an item that is unlikely to sell?" Will the system determine whether a price is "too high?" If so, how high is too high? A new player may not know what "too high" is and will then be penalized to take down the listing and re-post it at a more "correct" price. Is it fair for new players to lose platinum or gold in listing fees because they don't know yet what is the "proper" price for items? In addition, items that are unpopular one day can suddenly become very much in demand due to a new popular deck. Are we to be penalized for listing these cards at a higher price (due to the new demand) when the system may determine these new prices "too high" because the previous trend listed the particular card at a lower price?

Werlix
06-11-2014, 07:58 PM
What about Gold for listing fees? Just throwing that out there...

Especially seeing as cheap rares and UC/C cards will sell for very little plat, so even 1 plat fees on some of them would be a large percentage of the sell price. The problem here would be determining the gold fee when selling for plat...

Werlix
06-11-2014, 07:59 PM
I think my biggest question is what determines "an item that is unlikely to sell?" Will the system determine whether a price is "too high?" If so, how high is too high? A new player may not know what "too high" is and will then be penalized to take down the listing and re-post it at a more "correct" price. Is it fair for new players to lose platinum or gold in listing fees because they don't know yet what is the "proper" price for items? In addition, items that are unpopular one day can suddenly become very much in demand due to a new popular deck. Are we to be penalized for listing these cards at a higher price (due to the new demand) when the system may determine these new prices "too high" because the previous trend listed the particular card at a lower price?

I can't see them creating arbitrary systems to determine if an item is "unlikely to sell". Much cleaner and better to establish a system that discourages that behaviour in the first case. Simple, intuitive, quick filters is a good start.

Wolfe
06-11-2014, 07:59 PM
I think Xenavire is on target with the WoW comparison. Having "junk" grey items in the AH doesn't hurt anything there. Sometimes you can even buy them for less than the vendor value and turn a profit. Sometimes you want to disenchant low level uncommon items for crafting materials. I might just want those 30 Baby Yetis for 4 platinum. As long as the search and filter interface is good, I think we can safely let the consumer decide what is junk.

Xenavire
06-11-2014, 08:18 PM
I think Xenavire is on target with the WoW comparison. Having "junk" grey items in the AH doesn't hurt anything there. Sometimes you can even buy them for less than the vendor value and turn a profit. Sometimes you want to disenchant low level uncommon items for crafting materials. I might just want those 30 Baby Yetis for 4 platinum. As long as the search and filter interface is good, I think we can safely let the consumer decide what is junk.

Not... Quite... What I meant. But if it leads to something positive, yay? I guess? :p

ossuary
06-11-2014, 08:24 PM
I might just want those 30 Baby Yetis for 4 platinum. As long as the search and filter interface is good, I think we can safely let the consumer decide what is junk.

Too bad the AH we're getting at first is single-card listings only. (I still say a big fat BOOO to that, BTW - Chark, please reconsider!)

mach
06-11-2014, 08:26 PM
Too bad the AH we're getting at first is single-card listings only. (I still say a big fat BOOO to that, BTW - Chark, please reconsider!)

You sure about that? There is a quantity field in the screenshots we got. I doubt it is just for show.

FlyingMeatchip
06-11-2014, 08:29 PM
This would be my first experience with any gaming AH. I just want to unload excess rares to get plat to fill in missing ones...really just expected the fee to come off the sale not for putting in the listing. If this is the case I'm probably going to avoid AH and just wait for trading.

ossuary
06-11-2014, 08:44 PM
You sure about that? There is a quantity field in the screenshots we got. I doubt it is just for show.

The "near future" article said individual cards, but I suppose they could have meant that in the context of a card vs a pack. If they meant you could list 10x of a single card at a time, then it was worded pretty poorly. ;) I didn't notice the quantity column from the screenshot, it was too small and grainy on my screen. :)

https://hextcg.com/friday-update-the-near-future/

Auction House
As we mentioned in last week’s update, we are cleaning up the Auction House. You will be able to put individual cards, booster packs, equipment, and chests up for auction for either gold or platinum.

Chark
06-11-2014, 09:17 PM
Too bad the AH we're getting at first is single-card listings only. (I still say a big fat BOOO to that, BTW - Chark, please reconsider!)

Version one of the AH won't have multiple items listing. Sorry guys. That feature is taking longer than expected and I don't want to hold up the rest of the AH for it.

Chark
06-11-2014, 09:18 PM
There are no listing fees on the AH primarily because we we quickly realized that it doesn't work for the F2P players.

Miwa
06-11-2014, 09:20 PM
*edit* well, doh don't post after a purple name... :P

Skirovik
06-11-2014, 09:30 PM
There are no listing fees on the AH primarily because we we quickly realized that it doesn't work for the F2P players.

I love you guys! :D

ossuary
06-12-2014, 04:56 AM
Version one of the AH won't have multiple items listing. Sorry guys. That feature is taking longer than expected and I don't want to hold up the rest of the AH for it.


There are no listing fees on the AH primarily because we we quickly realized that it doesn't work for the F2P players.

Much obliged for the responses, Chark. All my concerns are resolved, then. Thanks! :)

Now, when version 2 comes out... can we get Bid/Ask? ;)

FlyingMeatchip
06-12-2014, 05:00 AM
Well then Im well on my way to get rid of excess and fill in the gaps.....it's getting tougher to fill in the gaps and do well in draft too.

mudkip
06-12-2014, 05:03 AM
There are no listing fees on the AH primarily because we we quickly realized that it doesn't work for the F2P players.

Why don't you refund the fee if it sells? That way it taxes people who try to sell things for silly prices.

silvercloud
06-12-2014, 06:52 AM
Why don't you refund the fee if it sells? That way it taxes people who try to sell things for silly prices.

It is what filters are for -->

Search Card by name
Filter by lowest to highest price...

done... silly price has no impact, unless no-one offers it for less in which case it is not a silly price.

mudkip
06-12-2014, 07:03 AM
It is what filters are for -->

Search Card by name
Filter by lowest to highest price...

done... silly price has no impact, unless no-one offers it for less in which case it is not a silly price.

You're right, I was still in the mindset of WoW which has terrible filters for stacks. It used to piss me off have to flick through pages of single overpriced enchanting Dusts. For individual cards this isn't an issue.

malloc31
06-12-2014, 07:39 AM
Yah, all they need is a way to order the cards by price (or price per cards if you can sell multiples at once) and none of this maters, you never need to look at the overpriced ones.

Xenavire
06-12-2014, 07:43 AM
You're right, I was still in the mindset of WoW which has terrible filters for stacks. It used to piss me off have to flick through pages of single overpriced enchanting Dusts. For individual cards this isn't an issue.

... This just sank in for me. *bursts into dance*

DrakarT
06-12-2014, 07:53 AM
It is what filters are for -->

Search Card by name
Filter by lowest to highest price...

done... silly price has no impact, unless no-one offers it for less in which case it is not a silly price.


It May impact if people starts seeing several on high price, because they might feel that the price is right

Zomnivore
06-12-2014, 07:56 AM
There are no listing fees on the AH primarily because we we quickly realized that it doesn't work for the F2P players.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZmtDAWnd18

Erukk
06-12-2014, 08:03 AM
I'm wondering how the fees are going to work with inexpensive cards. If I'm selling a common or uncommon for a whole whooping 5p or less, how are they going to take that 3-5%? Are they going to round it up to the closest platinum? If so, that would be ALOT larger than the 3-5% advertised.

As for the fee itself, there has to be some type of fee involved. While the thought of putting stuff up on the AH for free is nice, without some type of fee to keep the spamming in line, there would be a huge amount of undercutting. Nothing would be stopping people from simply taking their cards off when someone undercuts them, and them putting them right back up undercutting the person that did the same to them.

Edit: Nvm. This is why you read the full thread before posting. Lol :D

Freebird_Falcon
06-12-2014, 08:04 AM
There are no listing fees on the AH primarily because we we quickly realized that it doesn't work for the F2P players.

/cheer! happy to see multiples is also in the pipeline

ossuary
06-12-2014, 09:12 AM
I'm wondering how the fees are going to work with inexpensive cards. If I'm selling a common or uncommon for a whole whooping 5p or less, how are they going to take that 3-5%? Are they going to round it up to the closest platinum? If so, that would be ALOT larger than the 3-5% advertised.

I'm guessing it would by necessity round up (i.e. minimum sellers fee is 1 platinum, even if that's more than 5%). The solution is to either wait until you can list multiples, and list enough in a batch so it's worth your time (in that scenario, you're basically selling disenchantable cards rather than actual worthwhile cards to play with), or just don't sell them for now. Or list them in gold instead of platinum, which will probably be worth less so you can go into smaller increments of "real money" value... if you sell a few hundred commons for X amount of gold, you could then convert that into platinum.

Vorpal
06-12-2014, 10:17 AM
Just do like ebay does. No listing fees on the first <reasonable number> of auctions per month.

ossuary
06-12-2014, 10:26 AM
You should pay more attention. Chark has already responded in this thread and explicitly stated there will be no listing fees at all.

Svenn
06-12-2014, 10:35 AM
You should pay more attention. Chark has already responded in this thread and explicitly stated there will be no listing fees at all.
No listing fees. There will be fees for sales though.

ossuary
06-12-2014, 10:43 AM
No listing fees. There will be fees for sales though.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But Vorpal was offering a solution to listing fees, which is useless since there are none.

EntropyBall
06-12-2014, 10:47 AM
I'm guessing it would by necessity round up (i.e. minimum sellers fee is 1 platinum, even if that's more than 5%). The solution is to either wait until you can list multiples, and list enough in a batch so it's worth your time (in that scenario, you're basically selling disenchantable cards rather than actual worthwhile cards to play with), or just don't sell them for now. Or list them in gold instead of platinum, which will probably be worth less so you can go into smaller increments of "real money" value... if you sell a few hundred commons for X amount of gold, you could then convert that into platinum.

Or it could just "bill you" 1 P when you've reached enough 0.05 plat transactions to make a full plat. You will always have the money, because you won't hit the 1P mark unless you are selling something, which will always go for at least 1 plat. Or you could just let people have fractional plat values in their accounts.

Chark
06-12-2014, 11:24 AM
I'm wondering how the fees are going to work with inexpensive cards. If I'm selling a common or uncommon for a whole whooping 5p or less, how are they going to take that 3-5%? Are they going to round it up to the closest platinum? If so, that would be ALOT larger than the 3-5% advertised.

We are going to take 5% rounded down to the nearest whole currency denomination:

Example:
10 plat sale would result in a 0.5 plat fee rounded down to 0 plat
19 plat sale would result in a 0.95 plat fee rounded down to 0 plat
20 plat sale would result in a 1.00 plat fee.
25 plat sale would result in a 1.25 plat fee rounded down to 1 plat

ossuary
06-12-2014, 11:31 AM
Well, there you go then. All sales up to 19 plat have no fee at all. That's surprisingly cool, even for you guys. :)

Xenavire
06-12-2014, 11:33 AM
That is pretty awesome. This is like, good news week, obviously. I'd say there has been more good news from this E3 week than I expected, very awesome indeed.

Gwaer
06-12-2014, 11:34 AM
That's definitely the coolest way to go about it, but I was kind of attached to the idea of all list fees being in gold, since that'd be a perfect way to keep gold value. I suppose we will have to make due with your awesome gold sinks.

MicZeSeraphin
06-12-2014, 11:40 AM
With Tournaments probably not giving gold rewards after PVE goes live, the pure PVPers would have no way to get gold. I suppose that's the reason why each AH's fees will be paid with their respective currencies.

Gwaer
06-12-2014, 11:45 AM
They'd have to trade packs and cards from their winnings for gold.

Vorpal
06-12-2014, 12:20 PM
With Tournaments probably not giving gold rewards after PVE goes live, the pure PVPers would have no way to get gold. I suppose that's the reason why each AH's fees will be paid with their respective currencies.

PvP'ers are still going to need gold to roll their chests, so there should be people willing to trade packs/plat for gold in any case.

MicZeSeraphin
06-12-2014, 12:55 PM
You are assuming that PVPers will want to roll on them. Some of them will, buf if chests have negative EV (which is very possible if "cards" is the only acceptable result for you), most will just trade them for other cards.

Banquetto
06-12-2014, 01:51 PM
We are going to take 5% rounded down to the nearest whole currency denomination:

Example:
10 plat sale would result in a 0.5 plat fee rounded down to 0 plat
19 plat sale would result in a 0.95 plat fee rounded down to 0 plat
20 plat sale would result in a 1.00 plat fee.
25 plat sale would result in a 1.25 plat fee rounded down to 1 plat

Wow, nice, that is going to make for an extremely liquid market for lower-value cards.

Can you tease us with some info on what sort of limit there might be on auction listings per person now? :)

mach
06-12-2014, 01:59 PM
That's going to have some weird side effects.

For example, there's never any point in listing something at 20 plat, since you make exactly the same from a sale as you do at 19 plat.

Also, it means you lose money by stacking cheap items. Rather than listing a playset for 40 plat, people will list the cards individually for 10 plat each. That's going to make it inconvenient for buyers.

ossuary
06-12-2014, 02:01 PM
Twenty-one plat on the other hand... there's your money maker! ;)

noragar
06-12-2014, 02:18 PM
That's going to have some weird side effects.

For example, there's never any point in listing something at 20 plat, since you make exactly the same from a sale as you do at 19 plat.

Any system that doesn't carry over remainders from transaction to transaction would have this happen for some specific numbers. If you go up in penny by penny increments, most of the pennies go to you, then every so often, there's a penny that goes to the house instead.



Also, it means you lose money by stacking cheap items. Rather than listing a playset for 40 plat, people will list the cards individually for 10 plat each. That's going to make it inconvenient for buyers.

That means that the truly entrepreneurial soles can provide that convenience to the buyers by offering playsets for 45 platinum.

Xenavire
06-12-2014, 02:23 PM
I liked that we saw the options for selling free-spin chests. Assuming this is mostly going to be for primal chests, but its a nice touch, they covered bases I hadn't even considered.

nicosharp
06-12-2014, 03:11 PM
Playing Wildstar for just a bit and I already hate listing fees. Or pretty much any MMO/AH.
However, I can see why there is a need. It just is harder to validate when the currency used is real money. Real Money Auction houses - like Diablo 3 have a lot to consider. In a way the listing fees also open up a window of opportunity for 3rd party traders, which is good for the health of the game ultimately, as cards will be cheaper offline in some situations, and some pros can make a living playing.

Suggestion/Idea:
Account Limitations for Auction House trading:
- All accounts must have 500 plat purchased on file to list items for plat. (small barrier to entry by spammers)
- All accounts will be limited to 50 active auctions (number can be adjusted as needed - second barrier to entry for spammers)

ossuary
06-12-2014, 03:19 PM
nico. pay attention. there is no listing fee. :)

a-V-e-n
06-12-2014, 03:27 PM
I'm still deeply disappointed it will be auctions and not a marketplace with bid and ask offers. For me the most important thing is liquidity and will miss it here. Auctions are often about timing, sniping, bots, uncertainty, and lots of wasted time. Getting outbid by 1 plat in last seconds. Not selling your card for days. Auctioning makes the most sense only for the most rare and valuable items that are very hard to price, not generic commodities like Primal Packs or Vampire Kings. I really hope the devs will reconsider this for the 2.0 incarnation in the future.

nicosharp
06-12-2014, 03:30 PM
nico. pay attention. there is no listing fee. :)

page 3 was too much reading. I only went through page 2 :)

ossuary
06-12-2014, 03:35 PM
I'm still deeply disappointed it will be auctions and not a marketplace with bid and ask offers. For me the most important thing is liquidity and will miss it here. Auctions are often about timing, sniping, bots, uncertainty, and lots of wasted time. Getting outbid by 1 plat in last seconds. Not selling your card for days. Auctioning makes the most sense only for the most rare and valuable items that are very hard to price, not generic commodities like Primal Packs or Vampire Kings. I really hope the devs will reconsider this for the 2.0 incarnation in the future.

Version 1 is a normal AH. Chark has said, however, that they agree Bid/Ask is better and they want to work towards having that in the future. But it would take a lot longer to develop, so we have to be patient (and happy to get an AH period for now!). :)

Werlix
06-12-2014, 04:55 PM
Also, it means you lose money by stacking cheap items. Rather than listing a playset for 40 plat, people will list the cards individually for 10 plat each. That's going to make it inconvenient for buyers.

You can't sell playsets:


Version one of the AH won't have multiple items listing. Sorry guys. That feature is taking longer than expected and I don't want to hold up the rest of the AH for it.

mach
06-12-2014, 05:12 PM
Version 1 is a normal AH. Chark has said, however, that they agree Bid/Ask is better and they want to work towards having that in the future. But it would take a lot longer to develop, so we have to be patient (and happy to get an AH period for now!). :)

Agreed, but I agree with the person you quoted that the auction part of the current implementation was itself a waste of development time.

Instead of auctions, they should have stuck with fixed-price listings. Use that development time to allow anything to be used as currencies. So you could sell 1 Angel of Dawn for 3 Set 1 packs, or 100 Baby Yetis. It's not bid/ask, but it's better than auctions.


You can't sell playsets:

Yet.

Yoss
06-12-2014, 06:25 PM
OP updated:


EDIT (from page 3 of this thread):

There are no listing fees on the AH primarily because we we quickly realized that it doesn't work for the F2P players.

/thread

Thanks Chark! :)

/thread

Skirovik
06-12-2014, 08:46 PM
We are going to take 5% rounded down to the nearest whole currency denomination:

Example:
10 plat sale would result in a 0.5 plat fee rounded down to 0 plat
19 plat sale would result in a 0.95 plat fee rounded down to 0 plat
20 plat sale would result in a 1.00 plat fee.
25 plat sale would result in a 1.25 plat fee rounded down to 1 plat

AH news just keeps getting better and better!