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bootlace
06-14-2014, 02:20 PM
I know PVE is suppose to be F2P or whatever but surely it's got some potential to earn CZE some money down the road right? Besides sucking new players into the game and acting as a gateway drug, what else could be done to make it so this really demanding aspect of the game earns its development cost and more resources can be put behind it?

Of course there will be players who will want to buy some cards/equipment off the AH to speed up their progress but any ideas on other ways to make this a money earner for CZE without becoming pay2win?

I feel like there's alot of passionate Hex PVE fans here who are willing to spend money for this feature so would be interesting to hear some ideas..

To start things off, how about some vanity items - they always seem to be a good way for F2P games to earn money while not affecting gameplay? Perhaps selling cool keep decors, exclusive PVE sleeves, special come into play sounds/effects for cards etc.

I was bored and this seemed like a fun thing to think about - no boring "Hex doesn't have any free resources to develop new monetization features" types of posts plz :)

Yoss
06-14-2014, 02:40 PM
IF CZE is thinking of PvE as less important (AKA devoting less than 50% of dev time to it), then I'd love a way to pay and make PvE of equal importance (AKA getting equal dev time) to PvP. For now, I think the VIP program is supposed to already fill that niche, though it would be cool if when you signed up for VIP it asked you: "What part of Hex is most important to you? a) PvP tournaments b) Casual PvP c) PvE d) PvE tournaments (etc)"

Lawlschool
06-14-2014, 02:44 PM
So they've said before that they don't have any intention to monetize the PvE side of things.

However, if they did, sleeves are an obvious choice for monetization. What might be interesting is if they used sleeves to create "trading cards." Use lots of PvE card art to create multiple sleeves, randomly package a few of them in "sleeves boosters," and allow those sleeves to be traded or even sold in the AH.

poizonous
06-14-2014, 02:45 PM
IF CZE is thinking of PvE as less important (AKA devoting less than 50% of dev time to it), then I'd love a way to pay and make PvE of equal importance (AKA getting equal dev time) to PvP. For now, I think the VIP program is supposed to already fill that niche, though it would be cool if when you signed up for VIP it asked you: "What part of Hex is most important to you? a) PvP tournaments b) Casual PvP c) PvE d) PvE tournaments (etc)"

What purpose does that question serve? It sounds like a horrible way to cause more drama with which group thinks they are more important to the game. Face it PvE will be fun and have a huge following if it is successful but when it comes down to it, the PvP is what will pull the game to success.

funktion
06-14-2014, 02:52 PM
So they've said before that they don't have any intention to monetize the PvE side of things.

I'm not sure that's true... most of the statements I saw made it seem like they wanted to keep the option open that somewhere down the line in the future you might have to pay to unlock a raid or something?

I'm not saying I think that's a good idea or that they ever said that was going to happen, but there were a few statements that didn't seem like they were quite as absolute as you make it seem.

mudkip
06-14-2014, 03:19 PM
Buying packs to add cards to your PvE decks, packs already contain PvE rewards and (as you mentioned) AH creates Pay-to-win.

I agree, a PvE VIP would be cool, but let's see when it is released.

Idus
06-14-2014, 03:19 PM
I'm sure CZE understand this, but it will be PvE that makes this game a success, not PvP. PvP is simply the way they make money, but PvE is what will supply the vast majority of players, who convert to paying customers, and keep the buzz about the game alive to entice new players. The mobile app market has taught developers this. Getting millions of players paying nothing provides the 1% of the players who will spend hundreds of dollars each day/week/month on the paid side of the game.

The only reason it looks like PvE is getting the shaft currently, is because it's 1000x harder than what they realised when they set out, not because it's less important. No need to monetise PvE, it'll monetise itself.

funktion
06-14-2014, 03:39 PM
Well said idus

Clawdius
06-14-2014, 04:06 PM
Buying packs to add cards to your PvE decks, packs already contain PvE rewards and (as you mentioned) AH creates Pay-to-win.

I agree, a PvE VIP would be cool, but let's see when it is released.

An AH in a TCG is actually a lot less of a "pay to win" option than it is a "pay a set amount to get the card you want, rather than sinking potentially hundreds of dollars into drafts and opening packs and never seeing the card you're after" option. Any PVP TCG is Pay to Win in the sense that the cards cost money, but there is a fair amount of skill and quite a bit of luck involved. You can have four Angel of the Dawn in your deck, but if you draw nothing but resources your finely honed scalpel of a deck still gives you an overcooked noodle of a hand.

Games where you can't buy individual cards through any means that utilize a CCG format are arguably potentially much more expensive to construct a complete playset.

As for the Op, I'd say that my thoughts on monetization options that would be attractive to PVE players are as follows : Gold % buffs, XP % buffs, aesthetic items (such as, perhaps, unique skins for champions [I'd love to see an undead version of basically all the champions, for example]) and then of course you have buying packs of cards. Whether you're willing to farm a difficult dungeon to get a highly sought after piece of gear and sell it for platinum, or break out your credit card, either way Hex Entertainment LLC will profit from your participation in the ecosystem.

For games of this nature a large percentage of the players don't put money in, but if you're in a guild with your friends you can place your excess cards in the guild vaults etc and because your friends are involved it keeps people who have disposable income more invested. There's a whole psychological aspect to F2P monetization that is a bit screwy if it receives too much attention, but whether you make a game because it's the game you want to play, or you make a game that is designed to fleece your players, either way "whales" are the ones who make the majority of purchases in a F2P game. Ideally with Hex, which seems to fall adamantly in the former category, we won't really see anyone who can't afford to buy cards be unable to build a decent collection with a little luck and a lot of time invested.

At the end of the day Hex can hardly be "pay to win" so much as it is "pay to play competitive PVP" when the PVE cards are in people will be able to PVP with their PVE decks for free, they'll just have to get used to the idea that their opponent can do some of the insane things that the PVE cards allow in that format so whoever has invested the most time or money will be more likely to win. Whether you're willing to invest a lot of time, or a reasonable amount of money, Hex should be able to provide an entertaining TCG experience for you.

Voormas
06-14-2014, 05:13 PM
Buying platinum for packs / auction house, that is how PvE will make money

I don't buy the argument that they think PvE is less important than PvP; Cory has said time and again he wants PvE to be great, and that PvP has to be solid before it can be introduced - I think that the PvP side is coming along nicely, but it just takes a lot of time to make great PvE content

Yubar
06-14-2014, 10:09 PM
I don't think PvE is totally less important, its just harder to build and will probably have a slower payback period (PvP has upfront cost of entry then you can trade, do tournies etc, PvE you probably spend as time continues on temporary buffs etc). PvE can't really exist without having your simpler PvP together I feel.

I've thought about this a lot and have opened a thread about it. Vanity items are an easy way, making your keep really dope would be nice, plus they will get plat purchases from guys like me who haven't the time to farm gold. I think if they maybe not only rely on player drops but have PvE shops for chasier items, they could get some cash for PvE as well. I hesitate to ask for gold for $, because it distorts the open market exchange rate.

Maybe a VIP PvE subscription is an option (players like me would love if I could get a PvP/PvE VIP that gives a bit of a discount for having both) Maybe even give a month free for PvE VIP purchasers, or visa-versa. What would PvE VIP consist of? Maybe monthly or bi monthly vanity items/Alt Art PvE cards. Early content such as a first taste of new PvE dungeons would be very cool as well, maybe even extra crafting materials. Member only events may get a little sticky for equality but PERHAPS member only PvE tournaments for some Lotuses (not the garden). Thoughts?

sukebe
06-14-2014, 11:06 PM
Hasn't Cory said, multiple times even, that CZE will only ever sell packs, starters and platinum? I know he said it a lot during the kickstarter. Does anyone have a link where he reverses this and says otherwise?

Here is one such time they referenced what they will sell: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts/491939?page=2

There are obviously more (since this one references saying it at least one time prior) but I feel I have done my fair share of link hunting :-)

P.S. I should also mention that it was decided not to include a promo card code with the T-Shirts specifically because they promised not sell any in game stuff but Boosters, Starters, and plat.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 12:02 AM
Packs, starter decks, and tournament entry fees.

sukebe
06-15-2014, 12:33 AM
Packs, starter decks, and tournament entry fees.

True, I guess I always just translate "tournament entry fees" into plat in my mind :-)

Skirovik
06-15-2014, 05:26 AM
Does anyone have a link where he reverses this and says otherwise?

Where is Shadowelf? :(

Yubar
06-15-2014, 07:04 AM
So would a gold only AI shop that sells rare items be breaking that? Or would a PvE VIP that sells sleeves, PvE tourney entries, vanity keep upgrades, vanity PvE costumes and/or Alt art PvE cards be breaking that?

Also want to note CZE has said things before that they changed their mind on because it just made sense. We shouldn't take a statement like that and etch it in stone forever, they seem very open to ideas

Rendakor
06-15-2014, 08:02 AM
I believe the "packs, starters, plat only" refers to things they'll sell for real money. They haven't said what they will or won't sell for gold.

bootlace
06-15-2014, 09:54 AM
Would there be a lot of backlash if they started selling those cool PVE champions? They can have a core few that are free to all, then a few more free that you can rent that get rotated every week with the rest being for sale (of course you can buy it with gold you win in PVE itself, so technically still F2P).

I think alot of MOBA's do this to great success, I specifically like how this allows for regular content production and great reveal videos for the champions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PNKMouS9tY

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 09:57 AM
There was a lot of backlash from announcing more content. The answer is yes, there is literally nothing they can do that would not cause backlash.

bootlace
06-15-2014, 10:35 AM
There was a lot of backlash from announcing more content. The answer is yes, there is literally nothing they can do that would not cause backlash.

Actually the community seems extremely patient and forgiving as a whole considering all the delays, bad news etc compared to the norm in the gaming industry.

Clawdius
06-15-2014, 10:51 AM
There was a lot of backlash from announcing more content. The answer is yes, there is literally nothing they can do that would not cause backlash.

I think they could possibly have a PVE livestream, like the one that was promised to be coming "futher in the future" something like 387 days ago. That might not be met with backlash.

What does this comment add to the conversation about PVE monetization? Here's an idea, stop going thread to thread looking for ways to piss and moan about how your life is so hard, having to go around and tell these noobs how it really is. We get it, you spent the price of a used car on Hex, now would you kindly refrain from making literally every single thread about the same subject? I mean when they start off about it you complain that it violates the CoC and hurts your feelings, and when they aren't about it you come and derail the thread with these sorts of comments.

Xenavire
06-15-2014, 11:10 AM
I think they could possibly have a PVE livestream, like the one that was promised to be coming "futher in the future" something like 387 days ago. That might not be met with backlash.

What does this comment add to the conversation about PVE monetization? Here's an idea, stop going thread to thread looking for ways to piss and moan about how your life is so hard, having to go around and tell these noobs how it really is. We get it, you spent the price of a used car on Hex, now would you kindly refrain from making literally every single thread about the same subject? I mean when they start off about it you complain that it violates the CoC and hurts your feelings, and when they aren't about it you come and derail the thread with these sorts of comments.

Wow, I think you are totally blowing things out of proportion here. Especially since Gwaer was not the one who drove the topic in that direction. And I am not sure if Gwaer even mentioned the CoC before I did, and he never said it hurt his feelings.

Not to mention he was only mentioning how much he spent after being confronted by someone saying they spent 500. He wasn't going around bragging about it.

I mean, damn, take it easy.

Clawdius
06-15-2014, 11:14 AM
I dunno, if it was out of proportion then I suppose I should probably go and get some caffeine and wake up a bit, I'm just tired of rehashing the same conversation in every thread and was extremely annoyed by the prospect of having yet another thread turn into this ridiculous morass of argumentative nonsense that will have no resolution here.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 11:17 AM
I think you may have me confused for someone else, or have incredibly poor reading comprehension... I don't think I've ever complained about my feelings or the CoC.

Luckily 387 days in the future is still in the future. The second we end up in the past we've missed out on the promise for a PVE stream.

Clawdius
06-15-2014, 11:26 AM
Yes, clearly what crowdfunding requires is the desire to utilize vague wording and semantics, and it's not at all disingenuous.

If it wasn't you whinging on and on about the bloody CoC then I guess all of the posts where people act like any display of disappointment is the equivalent of someone coming into their house and slapping their child have started to run together into a miasma of frustrating rhetoric. Since that seems to be the case I apologize for the assertion that you're going from thread to thread making sure everyone knows just how important you are and that your opinions are facts.

Xenavire
06-15-2014, 11:30 AM
Yes, clearly what crowdfunding requires is the desire to utilize vague wording and semantics, and it's not at all disingenuous.

If it wasn't you whinging on and on about the bloody CoC then I guess all of the posts where people act like any display of disappointment is the equivalent of someone coming into their house and slapping their child have started to run together into a miasma of frustrating rhetoric. Since that seems to be the case I apologize for the assertion that you're going from thread to thread making sure everyone knows just how important you are and that your opinions are facts.

It sounds like you have Gwaer confused with me to be honest, and I try to leave my opinions out of the arguments as much as possible and focus on facts instead. And, as was said over and over, these threads are only going to hurt the game.

Especially since the positive threads are almost non-existent.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 11:31 AM
I understand. I feel exactly the same about the posts whining about PVE streams, or the game not being complete, or new sets. It all sort of bleeds together. I forgive you.

fido_one
06-15-2014, 11:42 AM
... And, as was said over and over, these threads are only going to hurt the game.

Especially since the positive threads are almost non-existent.

Xen, I respect you a lot for what you add to the forum, so it's not my intent to rile you up with my response here.

I think you're making it worse by trying to fight these negative threads all the time. It's making a lot of your posts seem overly defensive and reactionary and you'll eventually be characterized as such. ...and that would suck because it marginalizes all that you've contributed to this community over the past year.

Let more of them play out; my guess is a year or two from now if Hex is as successful as I hope it to be, this will be seen as a slightly darker time in development and you'll be laughing at those who panicked. If the forums and players aren't allowed some solid stretches of bitching and moaning, then something won't be right with the community - it's in our nature to wax and wane on stuff. It'll all work out; and if it doesn't, well then fuck it the bitching and moaning is totally justified.

sukebe
06-15-2014, 04:51 PM
Where is Shadowelf? :(

I know, I really miss that guy :-(


So would a gold only AI shop that sells rare items be breaking that? Or would a PvE VIP that sells sleeves, PvE tourney entries, vanity keep upgrades, vanity PvE costumes and/or Alt art PvE cards be breaking that?

Also want to note CZE has said things before that they changed their mind on because it just made sense. We shouldn't take a statement like that and etch it in stone forever, they seem very open to ideas

Gold only AI shop: Nope, that wouldnt be a problem since it uses gold. Unless by "rare items" you mean rare pvp cards. If that is what you mean, then yes. that would break their promise.

PVE VIP: not sure what you mean by this. If you mean for all those things to be sold for platinum, then yes, that would be breaking their promise. For gold? That would work for PVE tourney entries and all the other items you mentioned.

So far, the only thing CZE has failed to live up to is their time estimates. They have changed the way some things work (like mercs being tradable) as well but that was not a promise. The selling of nothing but boosters, starters, and tournament entries was a promise so I would be shocked if they went against that.

Claudius: you are allowed to complain. you are expected to do so in a way that follows the forum rules and simple common sense and internet decency. Since we are also posters, we can complain about things as well. Want us to stop complaining about people not following forum rules and whining about the same things over and over even though we knew about them a good while ago? Stop posting things that fit description and we will stop as well. Simple as that.

malloc31
06-16-2014, 11:19 AM
Unless I missed it the main way pve will be monetized has not been mentioned. All the PVE cards and equipment can be sold in the AH. To buy the best of it you will probably need to buy plat from them to buy it with.

Vorpal
06-17-2014, 08:01 AM
Well, they could sell cosmetic things: Alternate card art, alternate backgrounds, different champion skins, different sleeves...

Sell consumable buffs (exp booster, gold booster, item find booster)

Or just charge like $1 to unlock some of the later dungeons. I'd pay that.

Hatts
06-17-2014, 08:35 AM
Well, they could sell cosmetic things: Alternate card art, alternate backgrounds, different champion skins, different sleeves...

Sell consumable buffs (exp booster, gold booster, item find booster)

Or just charge like $1 to unlock some of the later dungeons. I'd pay that.

I really hope they do not need to resort to any of these, it would indicate that either PvP sales weren't doing well or the PvE population was either small, or not converting to paying customers at a viable rate. Either way, it would be signs of an unhealthy economy and poor revenues for HexEnt.

If they can convert 2% (average) to 4% (great) of F2P players into paying customers by either having them buy packs or buy singles for plat they should be doing just fine and won't need to nickle and dime their PvE players.

Raith
06-17-2014, 09:11 AM
Well, they could sell cosmetic things: Alternate card art, alternate backgrounds, different champion skins, different sleeves...

This wouldn't be bad. However, it seems a lot of these things are going into WoF spins and chests. Adding value to the chests is another carrot for Pve players to buy packs. So these things are already sort of being sold, but bundled into pack purchases as extra value which is very cool.


Or just charge like $1 to unlock some of the later dungeons. I'd pay that.

I really hope they don't have to do this, but if they bundled a bunch of dungeons as a mini expansion for a large gold cost (or optional platinum cost if you don't want to grind gold) I could be ok with it. I'd much prefer the dungeons be hard and fun to encourage people to use the AH to buy packs/cards/rare equipment.

HellFro
06-17-2014, 09:43 AM
Yeah, I'm against having to pay for raids or dungeons in any form. Sleeves and art is one thing but the gameplay in f2p should be exactly that, f2p.


However, it seems a lot of these things are going into WoF spins and chests. Adding value to the chests is another carrot for Pve players to buy packs. So these things are already sort of being sold, but bundled into pack purchases as extra value which is very cool.

This is the reason the packs will do so well. So much value with a possibility for exponentially more value.
No reason to add more cash grab schemes.

Banquetto
06-17-2014, 08:47 PM
The combination of PvE + gold and plat auction houses + buying plat for real money comes together to form a neat monetization model for PvE.

It is known - well-known - that many competitive PvE players are more than willing to spend money to boost their performance in PvE. Even in games where it is officially forbidden, look at the issues MMOs have with gold-sellers and power-levelers.

Introduce a legit sanctioned means of safely buying PvE cards and equipment from other players and I guarantee you that many PvE players will want to make use of it. We've been told that the rarest of PvE equipment will be very chase-y, so it will no doubt sell for a pretty penny on the AH. PvE'ers that want it bad will buy plat and use that plat to buy the rare gear.

Skirovik
06-17-2014, 09:53 PM
The combination of PvE + gold and plat auction houses + buying plat for real money comes together to form a neat monetization model for PvE.

It is known - well-known - that many competitive PvE players are more than willing to spend money to boost their performance in PvE. Even in games where it is officially forbidden, look at the issues MMOs have with gold-sellers and power-levelers.

Introduce a legit sanctioned means of safely buying PvE cards and equipment from other players and I guarantee you that many PvE players will want to make use of it. We've been told that the rarest of PvE equipment will be very chase-y, so it will no doubt sell for a pretty penny on the AH. PvE'ers that want it bad will buy plat and use that plat to buy the rare gear.

This is what I'm banking on. I don't think my Draft winnings will provide me with all I need. I'm definitely looking to both buy AND sell the super rare chase-y PVE stuff. I will be looking at BOTH currencies for these items.

sukebe
06-18-2014, 01:15 AM
Well, they could sell cosmetic things: Alternate card art, alternate backgrounds, different champion skins, different sleeves...

Sell consumable buffs (exp booster, gold booster, item find booster)

Or just charge like $1 to unlock some of the later dungeons. I'd pay that.

As has been said many times before, all of that would go completely against their promise to sell only boosters, starters, and tournament entries. I do not see why so many have trouble understanding this.

PVE players will mostly be people who spend no, or almost no money on the game (at least that is what happens with nearly every F2P game I have seen) but a small percentage (I believe research has shown the average to be 5%-10% on previos F2P games) of the PVE players will spend money on packs. Of those, a fair number of them will spend a lot.

That is how PVE will be monetized. That added with PVP only players should be plenty for keep Hex profitable.

Now, If they had in game stores that sold all those items you mentioned for gold (even a lot of it) that wouldn't be a problem. They promised that would not sell things like that for plat and they seem like the kind of company that keeps those promises.

AstaSyneri
06-18-2014, 01:31 AM
PVE players will mostly be people who spend no, or almost no money on the game (at least that is what happens with nearly every F2P game I have seen) but a small percentage (I believe research has shown the average to be 5%-10% on previos F2P games) of the PVE players will spend money on packs. Of those, a fair number of them will spend a lot.

That is how PVE will be monetized. That added with PVP only players should be plenty for keep Hex profitable.

I disagree with your assumption to a degree. While number-wise there might be a brief influx of a lot of casual players, I believe Hex is too much of a gamer's game to attract the all-casual F2P crowd long-term. Those players that stick even in the mid-term will be much more likely to be invested in the game (and pay money) than in an average F2P game.

I anticipate a comparatively large number of the PvE players buying platinum (more for boosters than AH purposes).

Bullus
06-18-2014, 02:20 AM
I disagree with your assumption to a degree. While number-wise there might be a brief influx of a lot of casual players, I believe Hex is too much of a gamer's game to attract the all-casual F2P crowd long-term. Those players that stick even in the mid-term will be much more likely to be invested in the game (and pay money) than in an average F2P game.

I anticipate a comparatively large number of the PvE players buying platinum (more for boosters than AH purposes).

agree 100% with this comment, I am sure i am not the only $250 + tier backer who views drafts for a years as nothing more than 3 packs a week for a year. just because we all have an idea what f2p means in most games does not mean it means that in all games. HEX (hopefully as it's finished product) is (should be) so heavily PVE centric in content that is is foolish to believe that PVE will not already be factored into CZE's books as a money earner.

Vorpal
06-18-2014, 09:22 AM
As has been said many times before, all of that would go completely against their promise to sell only boosters, starters, and tournament entries.

I have no idea why people think this is an objection.

The also 'sell' wheels of fate spins, via gold, so it looks like they already broke their 'promise'! The horror!

Why would a more extensive in game shop be a bad thing? I regard 'we intend to sell only x,y, and z at first' a benchmark from which to improve later, not some sort of binding contract. It wouldn't even be a desirable contract to have.

Xenavire
06-18-2014, 09:47 AM
Vorpal, the point is that they have stated that the only things that will cost platinum (equivalent to real money) is packs, starter decks, and entry fees. (And to a lesser extent, the AH. Thats not an in-store purchase, though the argument could be made if you really stretched.)

That leaves us with one outlet to monetise PvE - gold, the earnable currency. That would not make HexEnt any money directly (making it virtually useless for making any kind of profit from PvE). The only way around this would be allowing direct currency conversion (something they don't want to do, but will be possible through the AH and trading.)

Basically, unless they change their policy on selling only packs/starters, and entry fees, paid PvE content will not happen. But you can opt into buying PvE goods/services by indirectly transferring it via the AH/trading. If you want paid PvE content, its technically there, but you arent going to see gated content.

mach
06-18-2014, 09:52 AM
Couldn't they still sell packs of PvE goodies?

Turtlewing
06-18-2014, 09:55 AM
Couldn't they still sell packs of PvE goodies?

They already are. The chest in the existing packs is supposed to be full of PvE stuff.

Xenavire
06-18-2014, 09:56 AM
Couldn't they still sell packs of PvE goodies?

Maybe if they label it as 'PvE booster packs' that come with an assortment of equipment, cards, and mercs? But thats about the best hope we have based off what we currently know.

mach
06-18-2014, 10:02 AM
Maybe if they label it as 'PvE booster packs' that come with an assortment of equipment, cards, and mercs? But thats about the best hope we have based off what we currently know.

Exactly. So they could sell pretty much anything with breaking their promise. They just need to package it in starters, boosters, or tournament entries.

Xenavire
06-18-2014, 10:08 AM
Exactly. So they could sell pretty much anything with breaking their promise. They just need to package it in starters, boosters, or tournament entries.

There would be a point at which a line would be crossed though. Put simply, anything that is used for deckbuilding could be included. Dungeon access etc could never be included. But even all of this is a stretch, and I doubt HexEnt would ever actually do it. Doesn't seem to be their style.

Although I could see them selling a few basic PvE start-up kits somewhere in the future if there is huge demand for it. But it would obviously be approximately on-par with the PvP starter decks.

mach
06-18-2014, 10:12 AM
There would be a point at which a line would be crossed though. Put simply, anything that is used for deckbuilding could be included. Dungeon access etc could never be included. But even all of this is a stretch, and I doubt HexEnt would ever actually do it. Doesn't seem to be their style.

Although I could see them selling a few basic PvE start-up kits somewhere in the future if there is huge demand for it. But it would obviously be approximately on-par with the PvP starter decks.

First, PvP boosters contain chests which aren't used for deckbuilding. So I don't see why PvE boosters couldn't contain such items, as long as they contained cards as well.

Second, there is no reason that the dungeon access item couldn't be a card which you can also put in your deck.

Xenavire
06-18-2014, 10:21 AM
First, PvP boosters contain chests which aren't used for deckbuilding. So I don't see why PvE boosters couldn't contain such items, as long as they contained cards as well.

Second, there is no reason that the dungeon access item couldn't be a card which you can also put in your deck.

Thats seriously stretching it too far, I can tell you right now it will never happen.

As for chests? The contents of the chests are all things used for deckbuilding. Anything you get out of a chest or WoF roll eventually leads back to deckbuilding (even sleeves, kinda.) Can you name me anything that comes from the WoF or a booster pack right now (assuming chests are pretty much more of the same) that can't be used in deckbuilding?

mach
06-18-2014, 10:29 AM
Thats seriously stretching it too far, I can tell you right now it will never happen.


Why not? It seems like a very flavorful way to do things.



As for chests? The contents of the chests are all things used for deckbuilding. Anything you get out of a chest or WoF roll eventually leads back to deckbuilding (even sleeves, kinda.) Can you name me anything that comes from the WoF or a booster pack right now (assuming chests are pretty much more of the same) that can't be used in deckbuilding?

Sleeves, plus mercs don't actually go in your deck, right?

Have they said anything about what will actually be in the chests?

Xenavire
06-18-2014, 10:40 AM
Why not? It seems like a very flavorful way to do things.

Sleeves, plus mercs don't actually go in your deck, right?

Have they said anything about what will actually be in the chests?

Call it a gut feeling more than anything rational. As for sleeves and mercs, they go into your deck about as much as equipment does - but they are all used while you are building a deck. Makes sense to me.

And chests - they have said something along the lines of what will be in there, mostly PvE cards, more boosters, AA cards, mercs, equipment (I think thats most if not all of what they mentioned.)

mach
06-18-2014, 10:44 AM
Call it a gut feeling more than anything rational. As for sleeves and mercs, they go into your deck about as much as equipment does - but they are all used while you are building a deck. Makes sense to me.

And chests - they have said something along the lines of what will be in there, mostly PvE cards, more boosters, AA cards, mercs, equipment (I think thats most if not all of what they mentioned.)

With your very loose standard, what are you saying can't be in hypothetical PvE boosters? Other than dungeon unlock keys, since you have a gut feeling they won't be in card form.

Xenavire
06-18-2014, 10:50 AM
Like I said, anything used in deckbuilding (except sleeves I imagine,) for PvE starter kits. This would exclude many, many things.

Crafting materials, dungeon access, consumables/account wide perks, chests (kind of an obvious one, but I felt it should be said), plus anything new they might add i nthe future.

Theres a lot of stuff that can't be 'paid' for using my 'loose' standard. :p

mach
06-18-2014, 11:02 AM
Crafting materials can be used to craft cards, which are put in decks. So that should be fine.
Account-wide perks should be fine as long as they're in card form like some of the KS ones are. (See Raid Leader's Blessing for an example.)
Chests...weren't you just arguing that the chests in PvP packs were fine?

Xenavire
06-18-2014, 11:05 AM
Crafting materials can be used to craft cards, which are put in decks. So that should be fine.
Account-wide perks should be fine as long as they're in card form like some of the KS ones are. (See Raid Leader's Blessing for an example.)
Chests...weren't you just arguing that the chests in PvP packs were fine?

Yes, but I am proposing a PvE starter deck - starter decks don't include chests. :)

And we don't actually know everything about crafting, so let's assume that is off the table for now. I mean if it lets you craft consumables, it is automatically barred. And I can't concede the account-wide perks, unless you could earn those through standard play. Selling account perks would go against everything they said during the KS period.

Turtlewing
06-18-2014, 11:55 AM
Thats seriously stretching it too far, I can tell you right now it will never happen.

As for chests? The contents of the chests are all things used for deckbuilding. Anything you get out of a chest or WoF roll eventually leads back to deckbuilding (even sleeves, kinda.) Can you name me anything that comes from the WoF or a booster pack right now (assuming chests are pretty much more of the same) that can't be used in deckbuilding?

Gold isn't used in deck building.

Xenavire
06-18-2014, 12:06 PM
Gold isn't used in deck building.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that aspect of the wheels. Still, I hardly call gold a reward, I consider it a refund. :p

Vorpal
06-18-2014, 01:10 PM
Thats seriously stretching it too far, I can tell you right now it will never happen.

As for chests? The contents of the chests are all things used for deckbuilding.

We have absolutely no idea what is in the chests.

It could be PvE boosters, PvE cards, Keys to unlock dungeons, crafting materials, PvE Equipment, Mercenaries, whatever.

Xenavire
06-18-2014, 01:13 PM
We have absolutely no idea what is in the chests.

It could be PvE boosters, PvE cards, Keys to unlock dungeons, crafting materials, PvE Equipment, Mercenaries, whatever.

We were told what is going to be in chest. Subject to change of course, but it certainly wasn't PvE boosters or keys to dungeons. The rest are pretty much accurate (and all of which are used in the deckbuilding phase, barring crafting materials... Not sure if those will be in chests or not tbh.)

sukebe
06-18-2014, 04:51 PM
I have no idea why people think this is an objection.

The also 'sell' wheels of fate spins, via gold, so it looks like they already broke their 'promise'! The horror!

Why would a more extensive in game shop be a bad thing? I regard 'we intend to sell only x,y, and z at first' a benchmark from which to improve later, not some sort of binding contract. It wouldn't even be a desirable contract to have.

Wheel of Fate spins are not sold in the store. If you had read my post I made it clear that they only promised what they would and would not sell for platinum and that I had SPECIFICALLY said that if they sold those things you mentioned in game for gold there would be no issue. This last post of yours is probably the most dissapointing one I ever read from you, and that says a lot. At least read my entire post when it is as short as the last one was.

Yubar
06-19-2014, 05:20 AM
Direct Plat to Gold is helpful but not essential. CZE can still make money bc players like me will buy plat and exchange it for gold via items (packs/Lotuses I guess). They make money from me buying plat with the intent of converting it to gold, and from the AH fees that I have to put up in the process (Especially if I buy the item from the AH (are there bid fees?) and then sell it for a gold bid (listing fee).

Xenavire
06-19-2014, 07:19 AM
Direct Plat to Gold is helpful but not essential. CZE can still make money bc players like me will buy plat and exchange it for gold via items (packs/Lotuses I guess). They make money from me buying plat with the intent of converting it to gold, and from the AH fees that I have to put up in the process (Especially if I buy the item from the AH (are there bid fees?) and then sell it for a gold bid (listing fee).

I don't think there are bidding fees. Haven't heard of any news surrounding it, so assume they don't exist unless we hear otherwise.

Vorpal
06-19-2014, 07:48 AM
We were told what is going to be in chest. Subject to change of course, but it certainly wasn't PvE boosters or keys to dungeons. The rest are pretty much accurate (and all of which are used in the deckbuilding phase, barring crafting materials... Not sure if those will be in chests or not tbh.)

Well, it's a deck building game. Everything in the game will indirectly impact your deck building phase.

If the gold, mercenaries, sleeves, pve cards, and pve equipment you get from your pvp chests from doing WoF spins can be rationalized as being used during your pvp deck building phase, almost anything could be so rationalized.

People who keep harping on 'they promised they'd only sell packs, starters, and entry fees for plat!' are rather missing the point.

You buy chests with plat. Then you roll them with gold. From those gold fueled rolls on those platinum fueled chests come pve items, mercenaries, and sleeves. Therefore, you are alread buying mercenaries, sleeves, pve cards, and pve items with platinum

Yes, you need gold to make the roll, but you *also* need platinum to get the chest in the first place.

So it would only make sense to say "They said that they would only sell boosters, starters, and entry fees for only platinum". Which is not terribly helpful, as that opens the door to them to sell whatever they want for a combination of platinum and gold.

Every item in the chests is an item that is bought only with platinum. Every item you get from a wheel of fate roll is an item you buy with both gold and platinum.

Therefore saying "There is no way Hex could monetize pve because they've already promised the only things you can buy with platinum are boosters, starters, and entry fees" are incorrect because we can, already, right, now, get more things than that with platinum.

zadies
06-19-2014, 07:54 AM
Depends on how you look at it vorpal because when they original made those statements the WOF and chests did not exist and they were designed as a free value added that you are attributing a plat cost to.

Vorpal
06-19-2014, 08:13 AM
Depends on how you look at it vorpal because when they original made those statements the WOF and chests did not exist

That's kind of my point. That statement is clearly no longer operative, and we've moved well beyond it. I can go throw down 100 plat and get cards and whatever is in a booster chest. Add some gold and I can also get whatever the WOF gives me. All of this purchased with plat.

zadies
06-19-2014, 10:01 AM
Given the fact that all pvp cards are usable in pve I am not seeing why people think there need to be pve specific packs.

mudkip
06-19-2014, 10:04 AM
Given the fact that all pvp cards are usable in pve I am not seeing why people think there need to be pve specific packs.

Yeah I think it's silly. The exception being if there's some cool fixed pack, which would be a one off. Maybe a cool pve starter pack.

Norious
06-20-2014, 05:45 AM
I want a Finish Mission button for Gold.
:P
Just playing Marvel avengers tactics and noticed that hehe.

Anyhow. My copper is that indirect things like an auction house : buying cards for gold, buying crafting materials for gold, maybe even buying something like Fate spins could be marketable as well. Will the Auction house have a gold money sink (transaction fee)? What about a gold fee to buy backgrounds/ keeps and exclusive sleeves? Seems fair to me. What about an ante fee of gold for keep raids? If you lose,the defender gets your gold ante. ::shrugs::

HellFro
06-20-2014, 08:34 AM
Well, it's a deck building game. Everything in the game will indirectly impact your deck building phase.

If the gold, mercenaries, sleeves, pve cards, and pve equipment you get from your pvp chests from doing WoF spins can be rationalized as being used during your pvp deck building phase, almost anything could be so rationalized.

People who keep harping on 'they promised they'd only sell packs, starters, and entry fees for plat!' are rather missing the point.

You buy chests with plat. Then you roll them with gold. From those gold fueled rolls on those platinum fueled chests come pve items, mercenaries, and sleeves. Therefore, you are alread buying mercenaries, sleeves, pve cards, and pve items with platinum

Yes, you need gold to make the roll, but you *also* need platinum to get the chest in the first place.

So it would only make sense to say "They said that they would only sell boosters, starters, and entry fees for only platinum". Which is not terribly helpful, as that opens the door to them to sell whatever they want for a combination of platinum and gold.

Every item in the chests is an item that is bought only with platinum. Every item you get from a wheel of fate roll is an item you buy with both gold and platinum.

Therefore saying "There is no way Hex could monetize pve because they've already promised the only things you can buy with platinum are boosters, starters, and entry fees" are incorrect because we can, already, right, now, get more things than that with platinum.

But you're not buying chests from CZE. You bought a booster that just so happens to have a free chest.
Unless you bought it from the AH which is still not from CZE. So far, their promise has been kept.

Why would CZE sell chase items, even sleeves, when that defeats the purpose of the chase?

Vorpal
06-20-2014, 08:50 AM
Given the fact that all pvp cards are usable in pve I am not seeing why people think there need to be pve specific packs.

I agree with you. In fact, I think PvE cards should not be sold in packs and should be obtainable only via pve. (And if I am not mistaken Cory has said as much)

I think pvp players buying pve cards/gold from pve players with plat will be a valuable part of the economic cycle.

Vorpal
06-20-2014, 08:55 AM
But you're not buying chests from CZE.

Of course I am. I paid them platinum, I wound up with a chest.

Your post seems to be a textbook case of falling into the 'free lunch' economic fallacy.

I hope you don't fall for all those sleazy tricks where they tell you to buy something and if you do they'll throw in a 'free' something or other. The cost of the 'free' something or other is already included in the item you have purchased.

If I desire a certain sleeve that comes in a chest, I can throw platinum at CZE's store and I will eventually wind up with that sleeve.

How is this NOT selling sleeves for platinum?

Gwaer
06-20-2014, 09:26 AM
So if CZE today said "in addition to chests and cards there will be flufungles in all packs" Suddenly everything that already existed in the pack loses value to fit into the $2 price tag. Better yet, 2 years down the line, they add another thing to packs, suddenly the price of all cards has to go down to account for the fact that they are giving you an additional item, so the cards must be less valuable? I'm just not seeing it.

Aradon
06-20-2014, 09:30 AM
there will be flufungles in all packs"

You heard it here, folks. Flufungles in every pack!
Flufungle 2014!

Vorpal
06-20-2014, 10:12 AM
So if CZE today said "in addition to chests and cards there will be flufungles in all packs" Suddenly everything that already existed in the pack loses value to fit into the $2 price tag

Correct. How could it be otherwise?

Suppose CZE decided 'for free' to double the number of cards in a pack.

Do you deny that this would cause card values in plat to halve?

You have doubled supply without touching demand. Price will plummet.

Nothing is 'for free'. One of the primary economic laws.


Better yet, 2 years down the line, they add another thing to packs, suddenly the price of all cards has to go down to account for the fact that they are giving you an additional item, so the cards must be less valuable? I'm just not seeing it.

Ok, let's say CZE adds an item worth 200 plat to the pack that sells for 200 plat.

What do you think will happen to the price of the cards in the pack? Let's say before this they were valued at roughly 200 plat. Now what happens? They must necessarily drop in value. You're not going to have a situation where buying a pack automatically results in 200 plat profit for you to immediately buy more packs, etc. If this 200 plat item had enough demand, people would sell it, buy another pack with the profit, and repeat. Cards would become almost valueless as they would flood into the market in huge numbers.

When you pay a pack, you are buying a bundle of goods at a fixed price: you are buying a chest, a wheel of fate spin, a bunch of cards, a chance at a primal chest, etc.

Increase in the value of one of those components must necessarily decrease the value of the other components because the total value of the components is fixed at 200 plat. There is nothing 'for free' there. The total value of all the sellable goods in a bucket of goods you buy for 200 plat will be around... 200 plat. If the value of one increases the value of the others will decrease.

This is why CZE can't make your packs worth 'more' buy putting more cards in them. All that will do is make cards less valuable.

Likewise, CZE didn't make your packs worth 'more' buy putting chests in them. That also made the cards less valuable.

That's not to say that what CZE is doing is bad. In fact, it is good. Cards will be rotated out and lose a huge chunk of their value, eventually. Things you get that aren't rotated out are thus better for the player in the long term, IMO.

And the wheel of fate and stuff is fun. sure it might have made my cards slightly less valuable, but that's a trade I'm willing to make. But the economics behind this are well established. Nothing is for free. (You could have a situation where one group of people gets something 'for free' because another group pays the costs, but I do not think this situation applies to boosters in Hex)

Gwaer
06-20-2014, 10:35 AM
Obviously adding cards to the pack reduces the value of cards, since more cards will be in the economy. If the number of cards stays constant, and is not enough to meet demand, the value of cards will rise, no matter what else is included in the pack. Once value of cards rises to a point that they are worth more than the pack itself, people will just buy packs and open them immediately until the number of cards increases to the point that they are worth less than packs.

Not to mention that we're talking average cost here. The contents of a pack can be worth more than the pack itself occasionally, like when you open a spectral tiger mount for example. This is not something that happens automatically as you have claimed, it is a function of supply and demand. They can add things to packs without influencing the price of cards especially if those things do not sell for platinum at all, and are mostly PVE gold items. You might end up having to sell 10 chests out of a pack to get enough gold to buy 1platinum.

To put it another way, it will put a downward pressure on the value of cards, but in an expanding market it can be easily overcame. Adding something to a pack does not instantly and irrevocably alter the price of cards.

Vorpal
06-20-2014, 12:13 PM
To put it another way, it will put a downward pressure on the value of cards, but in an expanding market it can be easily overcame. Adding something to a pack does not instantly and irrevocably alter the price of cards.

Yes, as I specified, only things that you can sell for platinum would decrease the platinum value of existing items in the pack.

I think adding another platinum item to a pack would instantly alter the price of cards, but would not irrevocably do so.

At any rate, this is all rather a side issue to the indisputable fact that I can give CZE platinum, and wind up with a chest.

Saying 'Oh, they didn't SELL you the chest you bought something else and the chest was FREE' will not fly.

Even if it did fly, there is absolutely no reason this excuse could not be expanded to let CZE 'sell' you anything they wanted for platinum, as long as it was attached to a pack.

CZE isn't 'selling' you a pve xp booster, they are selling you a card booster and the xp booster was free.

CZE isn't 'selling' you access to a dungeon, they are selling you a card booster and the dungeon access was free.

Etc etc.