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Despoiler
06-14-2014, 03:52 PM
First off let me state I've been with Hex since the Kickstarter. I backed at King level because I wanted 2 things from this game:

1. PVE and King level granted me an exclusive card (lotus garden) that looked very attractive.
2. Drafting and the large amount of Set 1 booster packs made that an affordable option for me.

I believe I have been very patient with the development of this game and up till now have been fine with the explanations for the delays in development however the announcement of Set 2 have finally pushed my patience past the breaking point.

This is a CLOSED BETA of a game which by definition means the game hasn't even been released yet and your introducing NEW CONTENT to a game you haven't even gotten to work correctly or even with all the content you originally promised us would be in the game when it was actually released?

Cards are still not working properly and require bug reports. In games against AI or real people I STILL can't finish some games because it won't let me advance to the next phase of the turn. And drafts STILL don't work properly reliably enough for me to justify spending my real money on. And now you want to add an entire SET of cards to a game that isn't working properly to begin with?!

I have none of my rewards from my backer level for PVE, I have a stack of tickets from last year's Gencon that are useless because there's no PVE, I have an inventory full of treasure chests that are pointless to open because there's no PVE.

I joined this kickstarter exactly because it WAS NOT going to be an MTG clone, it was offering something new and different and right now all I'm being offered is an incomplete game that feels a lot like MTGO right now.

I know that supposedly PVE and PVP are separate but Crypt has a finite amount of people and resources and they should not be using them to advance even more content when your original content either still doesn't work or hasn't even been released. Deliver on what you promised before moving beyond it.

The game of Hex that was in the original vision looked amazing and I still very much want to see that game come about and will happily continue to back it but I believe Crypt has gotten off track.

I will not be buying any of Set 2 nor spending any more of my money on this game until I see advancement to making this game complete overall and not just going for more of what I see as a money grab.

Mahes
06-14-2014, 04:03 PM
I hope you have a good flame retardent suit on. It might get a bit hot.

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 04:04 PM
CLOSED BETA

Closed PvP Beta.



NEW CONTENT

A) it is needed, and B) would you rather the game added nothing?

Also, there are already several threads for this, can this please be merged?

HyenaNipples
06-14-2014, 04:07 PM
Is the decision to not spend money on a beta-phase product such a controversial subject that it deserves a public announcement?

More power to you, sir.

Despoiler
06-14-2014, 04:09 PM
1. It doesn't matter what kind of closed beta it is it's not release which is the point I was making.
2. How is it needed? Because you say it is? How would adding PVE to the game that's supposed to have it be adding nothing? I'd rather they devote their resources on releasing the product they promised originally.
3. I don't think this should be merged, why should all the opinions you don't like be merged while all the people yelling HURRAY over the new set get to have their own threads?
4. My choice not to spend money on this game isn't the main point of this article its the fact that I am disappointed they haven't delivered on their promise and don't seem at all inclined to at the moment and I felt the need to speak my mind as I have been more of a lurker up to this point.

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 04:15 PM
1. It doesn't matter what kind of closed beta it is it's not release which is the point I was making.
2. How is it needed? Because you say it is? How would adding PVE to the game that's supposed to have it be adding nothing? I'd rather they devote their resources on releasing the product they promised originally.

My point is that it is the PvP beta, and they are announcing upcoming PvP features - it makes perfect sense, especially since it sounds like it will lands in open beta, which will require more content to keep people interested.

And the point has been made many times that the most hardcore players have been playing since, what, October-ish last year? We have been using the full set of cards since March. We have had the full set for about 2 months now, and we have to wait 2 more, plus the other 5 months we had to play... People need something new, and the devs understand that. If they refuse to publish new content, existing players will leave, new players will not be interested, and the game will have to shut its doors.

It is absolutely needed.


And they promised a TCG - every part of this game is a TCG, PvP or PvE, doesn't matter. Any new sets is exactly what they promised - a proper TCG experience. Yes, parts are missing, but they are doing what they have to do to make it a true TCG - you can't just focus on the PvE, or the game will end up failing before it even gets started.

fido_one
06-14-2014, 04:15 PM
I hope you have a good flame retardent suit on. It might get a bit hot.

Hahahaha

I see things differently than the OP here and am not nearly as upset. Though I think anyone who pledged money has a right to vent like this and that Despoiler's frustration is understandable. A lot of forum members are being extra defensive on the addition of set two right now as they've linked that topic to the overall success of the game.

Hopefully when you come back, you come back to the game you and a lot of us envisioned...

bojanglesz
06-14-2014, 04:28 PM
Yeah it's hilarious how incompetent the launch has been. I say just stop playing and wait. I haven't opened the client in a month, just come back when it's better. It may be a year but so be it.

Clawdius
06-14-2014, 04:29 PM
I understand your concerns, I too backed at the King level, and I too did it primarily because I felt that with the set 1 packs I would be able to draft when I wanted but also primarily for the promise of PVE. I think that a big concern for all of us is probably the fact that the AI is still doing things like summoning blaze elementals in its second main phase, forcing itself to discard with corpse fly, spending all its resources on improving a living totem that is doing absolutely nothing worthwhile to the flock of seagulls it bashes face first into every turn... The lack of demonstrable AI improvement is, at least to me, as troubling or potentially more troubling than the lack of official PVE announcements.

However unpleasant the lack of PVE is to us as players, I can only imagine that the delays and set backs are even more troubling to Hex Entertainment LLC given the fact that they are the primary difference between Hex and the Duels of the Planeswalkers that WotC has centered their lawsuit around. If they could quickly release PVE it's difficult to conceive of any reason why they wouldn't do so post haste.

After all, as the game stands it does bear a striking similarity to Duels, and it won't really be fleshed out into an obviously different and unique game until it has the PVE aspects that so much of the design is centered around. I feel your pain, I've been waiting for that streaming PVE event that was promised in update 15 for 385 days or so myself. At the end of the day we have to look at what is being done, namely the release of the Auction House, and see it as frankly rather real proof that immediate monetization is not the goal for Hex Entertainment. After all, with an estimated 1.1 million unopened set 1 Kickstarter packs out there in the wild, as soon as the AH goes live every backer is going to be competing with Hex Entertainment for peoples platinum, and while they clearly make money off of the platinum they would obviously make even more money by directly acquiring peoples platinum in exchange for packs.

I'm inclined to agree that set 2s announcement came at a time when a lot of people were waiting patiently for news on PVE, and other than the same song we've heard for over a year now not a peep has been made on that front. I think that they underestimated the backlash resulting from what is, all things considered, a purely positive announcement. The lack of demonstrable PVE progress is, from everything they've said, rather deliberate. If that is the case, we should expect to hear more soon.

It's actually kind of funny, when you think about it, a completely disingenous "PVE" stream that was just a PVP stream using PVE cards with a human placeholder for the eventual AI would have been seen as a much better thing by a lot of the community than the announcement of set 2. However, set 1 has had a great deal of the art done since the Kickstarter, and set 1 design has been set in stone since the start of the beta AFAIK. Set 2 work for a lot of the company is absolutely not going to affect the state of PVE, since artists have had enough time to do another pass on a variety of things that the public hasn't even had the chance to see and doesn't precisely have the context in which to place that work. I think this may have been more a case of cards being played too close to the vest than it is a lack of any progress on the PVE side of things.

Don't get me wrong, I'm none too happy about having paid 120 dollars primarily for the PVE side of the game, and still having to play other products in the genre if I want any PVE experience at all. But having been giving this a lot of thought over the last several days I can see how these events have lined up the way they have, and all I can say is that I'm fairly confident that an announcement regarding the state of PVE will finally be forthcoming.

bojanglesz
06-14-2014, 04:29 PM
My point is that it is the PvP beta, and they are announcing upcoming PvP features - it makes perfect sense, especially since it sounds like it will lands in open beta, which will require more content to keep people interested.

And the point has been made many times that the most hardcore players have been playing since, what, October-ish last year? We have been using the full set of cards since March. We have had the full set for about 2 months now, and we have to wait 2 more, plus the other 5 months we had to play... People need something new, and the devs understand that. If they refuse to publish new content, existing players will leave, new players will not be interested, and the game will have to shut its doors.

It is absolutely needed.


And they promised a TCG - every part of this game is a TCG, PvP or PvE, doesn't matter. Any new sets is exactly what they promised - a proper TCG experience. Yes, parts are missing, but they are doing what they have to do to make it a true TCG - you can't just focus on the PvE, or the game will end up failing before it even gets started.

How about trading, cause, you know, TCG

Clawdius
06-14-2014, 04:32 PM
How about trading, cause, you know, TCG

I can't be certain, but I think that the AH will have established the engineering backend that we need to see person to person trading soon.

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 04:32 PM
How about trading, cause, you know, TCG

How about you go create a TCG and figure out how to do the database exchanges, the interface, and all the additional coding to make trading work?

Oh right, you can't. You have no idea how much work it takes. And trading is still in front of PvE on the list of features - something that OP was complaining about. "PvE this, PvE that."

You aren't even staying on topic.

Bullus
06-14-2014, 04:40 PM
My point is that it is the PvP beta, and they are announcing upcoming PvP features - it makes perfect sense, especially since it sounds like it will lands in open beta, which will require more content to keep people interested.

And the point has been made many times that the most hardcore players have been playing since, what, October-ish last year? We have been using the full set of cards since March. We have had the full set for about 2 months now, and we have to wait 2 more, plus the other 5 months we had to play... People need something new, and the devs understand that. If they refuse to publish new content, existing players will leave, new players will not be interested, and the game will have to shut its doors.

It is absolutely needed.


And they promised a TCG - every part of this game is a TCG, PvP or PvE, doesn't matter. Any new sets is exactly what they promised - a proper TCG experience. Yes, parts are missing, but they are doing what they have to do to make it a true TCG - you can't just focus on the PvE, or the game will end up failing before it even gets started.

.... they did not promise a TCG, they promised a MMOTCG, and why is it so wrong that pve want something when we have nothing and are pissed pvp players are getting more ontop of being the only ones with anything right now.

ohh noes our game will become stagnant, wtf least you have a freaking game, we have zero, of course we are pissed they are releasing more pvp

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 04:50 PM
.... they did not promise a TCG, they promised a MMOTCG, and why is it so wrong that pve want something when we have nothing and are pissed pvp players are getting more ontop of being the only ones with anything right now.

ohh noes our game will become stagnant, wtf least you have a freaking game, we have zero, of course we are pissed they are releasing more pvp

Maybe you missed the memo, but the actual development of the PvE side had to wait for the PvP framework, which was buggy as hell until a few months ago. And during that time they were already working on building set 2 (using the tools they built for set 1). In other words, PvP is so far ahead of PvE simply because it wasn't possible to build PvE yet.

And stop trying to separate us - I want PvE as well. I am just not being a dick about it to everyone else, I actually understand what is going on and decide to use what I have to enjoy the game. It isn't 'you versus us'. It isn't PvE versus PvP - it is your opinion causing that kind of thinking.

I am getting totally sick of it. Of course, you completely ignore all the recent updates about PvE as well (we saw 6 panorama shots, plus word from Cory about the upcoming timeline, which heavily implies that we will get PvE almost directly after the open beta launch. That is mere days ago, yet here you are, bitching.)

I mean what will it take to shut you guys up? They can't possibly make PvE come out any faster. Will it take devs working themselves to the point that they are physically ill? I can't even comprehend what you are trying to ask for here.

PvP needs to continue. That comes from the devs, from Cory - they know about building a TCG. They also have said PvE is closer than ever. How can you not reconcile the two as being good news overall?

mach
06-14-2014, 05:00 PM
Closed PvP Beta.


Something I've been wondering about this: If this is PvP Beta rather than just Beta (so only half of Beta), won't there need to be a PvE Beta as well? Since all KS pledge levels included a Beta invite rather than a PvP Beta invite, I'd think this is something they'd have to do.

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 05:03 PM
Something I've been wondering about this: If this is PvP Beta rather than just Beta (so only half of Beta), won't there need to be a PvE Beta as well? Since all KS pledge levels included a Beta invite rather than a PvP Beta invite, I'd think this is something they'd have to do.

I frankly was wondering this too. But I don't know how they can classify it as a PvE beta once we are in open beta, other just labelling it when the first bit of PvE hits...

The OCD part of me demands they do this.

mach
06-14-2014, 05:11 PM
I frankly was wondering this too. But I don't know how they can classify it as a PvE beta once we are in open beta, other just labelling it when the first bit of PvE hits...

The OCD part of me demands they do this.

Probably the easiest way would be to use a separate test server (could repurpose the alpha server for this purpose). It would be like a traditional beta in that what you did wouldn't count towards your real account.

I think doing this would vastly increase the chance of a successful PvE launch.

bojanglesz
06-14-2014, 05:16 PM
How about you go create a TCG and figure out how to do the database exchanges, the interface, and all the additional coding to make trading work?

Oh right, you can't. You have no idea how much work it takes. And trading is still in front of PvE on the list of features - something that OP was complaining about. "PvE this, PvE that."

You aren't even staying on topic.

I know this is hard for you, since you defend CZE at every turn, but they just delayed AH to come out 2 months (or maybe 3, 4?) after closed beta. And lel at your "well then you make a TCG!11"

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 05:31 PM
I know this is hard for you, since you defend CZE at every turn, but they just delayed AH to come out 2 months (or maybe 3, 4?) after closed beta. And lel at your "well then you make a TCG!11"

Where did you pull that ridiculous number from? And if you are counting from the start of closed beta, don't - they said it wasn't coming at the start, it was never a possibility. You have to count from the time it would reasonably be expected (which, according to HexEnt, is next Wednesday. Start counting then.)

And you think I am funny with that 'you make a TCG' comment? If you have no idea how hard it is, your opinion on the speed at which it is done is completely worthless. At least I have some limited exposure to game developers and early beta games, you seem to know nothing at all.

bootlace
06-14-2014, 05:31 PM
This is a CLOSED BETA of a game which by definition means the game hasn't even been released yet and your introducing NEW CONTENT to a game you haven't even gotten to work correctly

This is the most troubling part for me. You're worried about players in a closed beta getting bored?? What happened to that whole 'this is a sausage factory' business. This game needs a tremendous amount of polish or else any player who has dabbled in the likes of HS are gonna uninstall Hex before they get through their first game.

mudkip
06-14-2014, 05:36 PM
I'm not surprised by the time, but I'm surprised by the lack of stuff hitting the beta. I mean, I know it's a big system, but I'd expect some modular stuff, e.g. all those panoramas we've been seeing, why aren't they in-game? The globe has been in since alpha release, but that's it, it hasn't changed.

Is everything going to hit at once?

Mahes
06-14-2014, 05:37 PM
I'm not surprised by the time, but I'm surprised by the lack of stuff hitting the beta. I mean, I know it's a big system, but I'd expect some modular stuff, e.g. all those panoramas we've been seeing, why aren't they in-game? The globe has been in since alpha release, but that's it, it hasn't changed.

Is everything going to hit at once?

Yes,

It shall be named "The 2nd coming"

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 05:37 PM
This is the most troubling part for me. You're worried about players in a closed beta getting bored?? What happened to that whole 'this is a sausage factory' business. This game needs a tremendous amount of polish or else any player who has dabbled in the likes of HS are gonna uninstall Hex before they get through their first game.

90% of the PvP features are in and working correctly. The last few PvP features are coming, and hopefully will work correctly shortly after being introduced. And a new set, coming months from now, is not 'new content before everything is complete' - it is an announcement, now, before things are complete, aiming to launch when they are more complete.

mudkip
06-14-2014, 05:42 PM
"The 2nd coming"

That's what SHE said?

bootlace
06-14-2014, 06:00 PM
90% of the PvP features are in and working correctly. The last few PvP features are coming, and hopefully will work correctly shortly after being introduced. And a new set, coming months from now, is not 'new content before everything is complete' - it is an announcement, now, before things are complete, aiming to launch when they are more complete.

Forget the PVP features, there's still even basic core game functions that are still not working or are super sloppy. I haven't played much in the last few weeks but many cards were buggy to the point they cost me games, sideboarding was not working correctly, cards had the wrong text or rules coded in, the timer was a complete joke, still no option to pass priority for a turn, no proper stackable sort by shard cost in deck builder, can't see cards missing in collection, you have to click like 5 times to pick a card during draft, can't even check your collection or return to home screen during a tournament, card text is not optimized for viewing at all both in game and in collection screen, can't see any cards not in your collection, you win chests that you can't open, no best of 3 in proving grounds, AI is a total joke, I can't even change my freaking login password....I could go on.....but this is some very basic level stuff that really should be in and polished one year into the KS (notice how I didn't even mention the bazillion things that they promised and we haven't even sniffed yet).

You might have unyielding devotion to this game but some random guy joining during the open beta has a bazillion things competing for his time, attention, and money and he won't care 'it's hard to make a TCG'.

mudkip
06-14-2014, 06:08 PM
You might have unyielding devotion to this game but some random guy joining during the open beta has a bazillion things competing for his time, attention, and money and he won't care 'it's hard to make a TCG'.

I will admit that though I have no ragrets, Hex has turned me of Early Access games completely.

There's a lot of good, completed PC games out there right now.

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 06:15 PM
Forget the PVP features, there's still even basic core game functions that are still not working or are super sloppy. I haven't played much in the last few weeks but many cards were buggy to the point they cost me games, sideboarding was not working correctly, cards had the wrong text or rules coded in, the timer was a complete joke, still no option to pass priority for a turn, no proper stackable sort by shard cost in deck builder, can't see cards missing in collection, you have to click like 5 times to pick a card during draft, can't even check your collection or return to home screen during a tournament, card text is not optimized for viewing at all both in game and in collection screen, can't see any cards not in your collection, you win chests that you can't open, no best of 3 in proving grounds, AI is a total joke, I can't even change my freaking login password....I could go on.....but this is some very basic level stuff that really should be in and polished one year into the KS (notice how I didn't even mention the bazillion things that they promised and we haven't even sniffed yet).

You might have unyielding devotion to this game but some random guy joining during the open beta has a bazillion things competing for his time, attention, and money and he won't care 'it's hard to make a TCG'.

Again, do you know exactly how complex all that stuff is? It certainly doesn't sound like it.

Anyway... For stuff that is in already, most of it is working fine (one recent bug has been particularly annoying, but other than that everything except the timer issues are great.) The stuff that isn't in was always planned to come in later. You basically have a choice - get all those 'basic features', or you get PvE. Only so much time in a day you know.

bootlace
06-14-2014, 06:27 PM
Again, do you know exactly how complex all that stuff is? It certainly doesn't sound like it.

Anyway... For stuff that is in already, most of it is working fine (one recent bug has been particularly annoying, but other than that everything except the timer issues are great.) The stuff that isn't in was always planned to come in later. You basically have a choice - get all those 'basic features', or you get PvE. Only so much time in a day you know.

Again, "this stuff is hard" is not a business excuse. This is not a charity and consumers will only look at the end result. If you think the 'negative' posters here are anything bad, wait until the outside public get a taste and let their opinions be known...Heck, we already had a brief preview during the lawsuit peeking into other forums and even the final promised version on KS was crapped on pretty heavily.

As much as you try to silence the critics on here, they serve a pretty useful function of honest feedback because this utopia of "CZE can do no wrong" won't get very far in the real world (open beta and beyond).

Thrawn
06-14-2014, 06:33 PM
I always wonder what the mindset is when someone makes these posts. Do they honestly think Cory is going to read that post and go "Awww, shit, we were just sitting around doing nothing and having money parties, but I guess we should actually work on the game now that someone complained on the forums."

Yes they are way behind on almost every day they've ever posted or mentioned, but no amount of forum crying is going to change that or speed things up.

Gwaer
06-14-2014, 06:34 PM
Hopefully they filter out the most positive, and most negative people. Both groups are the least useful from a feedback standpoint.

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 06:36 PM
Again, "this stuff is hard" is not a business excuse. This is not a charity and consumers will only look at the end result. If you think the 'negative' posters here are anything bad, wait until the outside public get a taste and let their opinions be known...Heck, we already had a brief preview during the lawsuit peeking into other forums and even the final promised version on KS was crapped on pretty heavily.

As much as you try to silence the critics on here, they serve a pretty useful function of honest feedback because this utopia of "CZE can do no wrong" won't get very far in the real world (open beta and beyond).

There is this line. The line separates honest feedback (constructive) from whining (wasting everyones time). When this is the 4th or 5th thread in about 5 days, about the exact same topic, and was made while those other threads are still on the first page... It is whining. I try to silence whiners. And frankly, all this boils down to complaining that PvE is late, which we have had way, way more threads for.

Still - this is in beta for a reason. If this was the launch product, missing all those features, you might have a good point. But this thing is still being built. You are literally counting chickens before the eggs are laid. If you are not satisfied with this closed beta, unfinished product, nothing is forcing you to play it. You can easily wait it out. I think you already know this too, which makes me wonder why you take it upon yourself to come complain when it literally does nothing to affect your day to day life - Hex doesn't start itself up and ask you to play it. So why are you even on the forums at all, complaining about things you don't even experience first-hand? (Here's a hint, you should log in every now or then, or at least keep up to date on patch notes if you are going to claim the game is too broken to be worth playing.)

Rokz
06-14-2014, 06:36 PM
Oh em gee, you've spent a minuscule amount on a kickstarted game that's in progress and decided to invite it's backers to try out the game EARLY... Be patient, stop whinging, gtfo until release or stfu... Nuf said...

These threads need to be deleted, it's poisoning the forums...

Dichdude
06-14-2014, 06:56 PM
Look , the one thing we know the CZE can do is make new cards, hell CZE release a new branded TCG every month or two, so I find it hard to get excited about set 2 coming out. On that note what a lackluster announcement with no one apart from KS backers noticing or even caring.

Unfortunately they have shown no ability in making a computer game up to now. I can't think of one deadline that has actually been hit.

Before people start saying 'you don't know how hard it is to make the game' - no I don't but the troubling thing is it feels like CZE don't either!

I want to be positive but the game is a total mess with the only thing actually working 100% is payment system - which is not even run by CZE.

The UI looks like it got ripped out of a game made in the 90's.

The only thing we have seen of PvE is a background picture or two.....a game years in development and thats it!

The only reason I get so pissed off with development is because I was so sold on the idea and vision Cory placed in front of us and the fact I am not sure if the team will EVER be able to realize that promise makes me wish another developer was making the game for them.

I do hope things come together in the end but the one thing I can't stomach any more from the Hex development is disappointment and excuses.

bootlace
06-14-2014, 07:02 PM
There is this line. The line separates honest feedback (constructive) from whining (wasting everyones time). When this is the 4th or 5th thread in about 5 days, about the exact same topic, and was made while those other threads are still on the first page... It is whining. I try to silence whiners. And frankly, all this boils down to complaining that PvE is late, which we have had way, way more threads for.

Still - this is in beta for a reason. If this was the launch product, missing all those features, you might have a good point. But this thing is still being built. You are literally counting chickens before the eggs are laid. If you are not satisfied with this closed beta, unfinished product, nothing is forcing you to play it. You can easily wait it out. I think you already know this too, which makes me wonder why you take it upon yourself to come complain when it literally does nothing to affect your day to day life - Hex doesn't start itself up and ask you to play it. So why are you even on the forums at all, complaining about things you don't even experience first-hand? (Here's a hint, you should log in every now or then, or at least keep up to date on patch notes if you are going to claim the game is too broken to be worth playing.)

Do you think you're actually contributing a whole lot by constantly protecting CZE with the same worn out excuses? CZE doesn't need you protecting them at every turn, they're a well established company with plenty of credibility and backbone to handle a few displeased forum users. The reason this forum exists is for sharing experiences, thoughts and ideas about the game - whether positive or negative. People complaining have very legitimate reasons to be concerned given latest series of developments and people who tell them to STFU only add fuel to the fire. The fact that so many threads are being opened about this specific issue should speak to the volume and degree of people's dissatisafaction with the development in question - which again, can be of some use to a company that's just starting out in a specific venture. Repeatedly telling people to shut up and GTFO if they dont like it - that I don't see any constructive purpose in. How would you feel if in every positive thread someone made - there were the same users harping on about all the negatives? Both types of feedback have value and they should both be allowed to exist whether you agree with it or not.

Finally, you say yourself this is an unfinished product yet ignore the fact that the game has pretty much launched in terms of PVP - set 1 drafts will be phased out end of summer bringing in set 2 and the cycle of PVP sets will follow a specific timeline from here on out.

firedancer27
06-14-2014, 07:04 PM
This is what happens when there isn't that much new to talk about. People become anxious. Xenavire, you are a great part of this community and it might be a good idea to take a break from the forums for a bit to refresh.

I don't think the state of the game is as bad as some state nor is it as good. I agree with some of the worry behind bugs still existing in the current set, yet releasing a new set. I would like to see the game functioning without breaks before a new set is released. My own personal theory is that like any other business, money is needed. I haven't bought a single pack yet because of KS rewards and I am assuming I am not the only one. If I want to draft with set 2 I will have to spend money on those packs to enter drafts.

There are a bunch of us that believe in the vision of this game but the worry about bringing new people into the game is completely valid. I completely agree with the fact that it isn't an excuse to say making a digital tcg is hard. The market doesn't care. I just bought a 6 month sub to WoW and that money would have been directed to Hex if everything was up and running. That isn't a criticism of Hex, that is just the current situation. My 77 dollars doesn't make a difference but who knows the number of potential customers that go elsewhere.

I hope that everything comes to fruition for this game, that's why I backed. I just wanted to try to express a calm realistic observation of the current state of the game.

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 07:08 PM
Look , the one thing we know the CZE can do is make new cards, hell CZE release a new branded TCG every month or two, so I find it hard to get excited about set 2 coming out. On that note what a lackluster announcement with no one apart from KS backers noticing or even caring.


I have mixed feelings here - it's closed beta, so people shouldn't even be that concerned unless they are a backer. But the blatant lack of interest from the gaming sites is frustrating - they were sent set 2 spoilers and they can't even be bothered to post them. If they did, people might actually get hyped.



Unfortunately they have shown no ability in making a computer game up to now. I can't think of one deadline that has actually been hit.


Ignoring the initial beta estimate they were forced to make for the kickstarter... They actually hit the Beta date just fine, once they actually announced it. It had one bad week, then everything was super smooth - and it was only their fault because the program they trusted (and wasn't built by them) failed.



The UI looks like it got ripped out of a game made in the 90's.


This one flat out confuses me. Do you even remember 90's games? Please, some comparison pics would be great.

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 07:14 PM
Do you think you're actually contributing a whole lot by constantly protecting CZE with the same worn out excuses? CZE doesn't need you protecting them at every turn, they're a well established company with plenty of credibility and backbone to handle a few displeased forum users. The reason this forum exists is for sharing experiences, thoughts and ideas about the game - whether positive or negative. People complaining have very legitimate reasons to be concerned given latest series of developments and people who tell them to STFU only add fuel to the fire. The fact that so many threads are being opened about this specific issue should speak to the volume and degree of people's dissatisafaction with the development in question - which again, can be of some use to a company that's just starting out in a specific venture. Repeatedly telling people to shut up and GTFO if they dont like it - that I don't see any constructive purpose in. How would you feel if in every positive thread someone made - there were the same users harping on about all the negatives? Both types of feedback have value and they should both be allowed to exist whether you agree with it or not.

Finally, you say yourself this is an unfinished product yet ignore the fact that the game has pretty much launched in terms of PVP - set 1 drafts will be phased out end of summer bringing in set 2 and the cycle of PVP sets will follow a specific timeline from here on out.

The amount of threads just shows how arrogant people are - they always think their thread will be the one that does it. It speaks volumes about how many people think their opinions are more important than others. At least I try to deal in facts wherever possible.

And continuing development on PvP doesn't mean it is done. The core features, yes, but not all the other features that will make PvP a finished and compelling experience. Again, counting chickens, don't do that.

Lastly - I wouldn't even bother if we hadn't had a vast library of identical threads. This needs to stop because it never goes anywhere. Yet people keep thinking they are the lord of all answers, and they start a new (failed) thread. Go count up the negative threads against the positive ones. All in all, I estimate the negatives ones outnumber the positive ones by a factor of 10 to 1.

A positive thread would be a refreshing change.

bootlace
06-14-2014, 07:19 PM
The amount of threads just shows how arrogant people are - they always think their thread will be the one that does it. It speaks volumes about how many people think their opinions are more important than others. At least I try to deal in facts wherever possible.

And continuing development on PvP doesn't mean it is done. The core features, yes, but not all the other features that will make PvP a finished and compelling experience. Again, counting chickens, don't do that.

Lastly - I wouldn't even bother if we hadn't had a vast library of identical threads. This needs to stop because it never goes anywhere. Yet people keep thinking they are the lord of all answers, and they start a new (failed) thread. Go count up the negative threads against the positive ones. All in all, I estimate the negatives ones outnumber the positive ones by a factor of 10 to 1.

A positive thread would be a refreshing change.

I understand you're trying to keep a good positive environment but honestly I think sometimes its just best to let people whine and get it out of their system instead of trying to convince them their displeasure isn't real...I mean it might actually be a last resort for them until they truly quit and never come back..which Hex doesn't really have the luxury of affording right now.

Ju66ernaut
06-14-2014, 07:20 PM
It's a shit situation, but maybe I'm all rainbows and kittens.

I think of PvE and HEX like going out to a fancy restaurant. You get there early, you order your appetizer (Alpha/beta PvP), main course (PvE), and the soufflé for dessert (Set 2) all at once. The appetizer comes out, it is delightful and you enjoy it. Unfortunately your waiter comes to the table and explains that there has been a mix up in the kitchen and your main course still isn't prepared. The soufflé will be ready in moments......would you really rather let it sit in the back for 30 minutes or are you ready to enjoy it before the main course?

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 07:29 PM
I understand you're trying to keep a good positive environment but honestly I think sometimes its just best to let people whine and get it out of their system instead of trying to convince them their displeasure isn't real...I mean it might actually be a last resort for them until they truly quit and never come back..which Hex doesn't really have the luxury of affording right now.

And what, we have an entire forum of people hating on the game, with next to no other posts? How is someone new going to view that? They won't even give the game a chance.

You need to accept the bad, and you need to express your displeasure. Those things are healthy. What is not healthy is having rapidly rising numbers of threads saying 'I don't trust this game, it isn't doing what I want'. And frankly, a lot of the complaints are based out of fear or pure ignorance, which I try to help with - and I am met every time with hostility rather than an attempt to understand.

I still have to try though, because we actually want new players.

Bullus
06-14-2014, 07:31 PM
It's a shit situation, but maybe I'm all rainbows and kittens.

I think of PvE and HEX like going out to a fancy restaurant. You get there early, you order your appetizer (Alpha/beta PvP), main course (PvE), and the soufflé for dessert (Set 2) all at once. The appetizer comes out, it is delightful and you enjoy it. Unfortunately your waiter comes to the table and explains that there has been a mix up in the kitchen and your main course still isn't prepared. The soufflé will be ready in moments......would you really rather let it sit in the back for 30 minutes or are you ready to enjoy it before the main course?

worst analogy ever, i would tell them to remake it, and if they didn't i would pay for my appetizer and leave. And coming from 15 years in hospitality industry, i would be shocked if a "fancy restaurant" even tried this

bootlace
06-14-2014, 07:37 PM
And what, we have an entire forum of people hating on the game, with next to no other posts? How is someone new going to view that? They won't even give the game a chance.

You need to accept the bad, and you need to express your displeasure. Those things are healthy. What is not healthy is having rapidly rising numbers of threads saying 'I don't trust this game, it isn't doing what I want'. And frankly, a lot of the complaints are based out of fear or pure ignorance, which I try to help with - and I am met every time with hostility rather than an attempt to understand.

I still have to try though, because we actually want new players.

Well most of the threads would quickly get off the front page if it wasn't for the constant 'you're wrong', 'no your wrong' back and forth that keeps the thread bumped. ;)

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 07:40 PM
Well most of the threads would quickly get off the front page if it wasn't for the constant 'you're wrong', 'no your wrong' back and forth that keeps the thread bumped. ;)

I actually tried letting some threads go past. They becomes literal hives of activity, all in agreement.

Basically, if we don't bump it with argument, the complainers will bump it with complaints. I would rather have both sides represented if it won't make a difference to bumping.

Thrawn
06-14-2014, 07:41 PM
worst analogy ever, i would tell them to remake it, and if they didn't i would pay for my appetizer and leave. And coming from 15 years in hospitality industry, i would be shocked if a "fancy restaurant" even tried this

It's also an awful analogy because a closer one would be that they told you up front that the main course won't be ready for a while, gave you a free desert that you didn't ask for and you still complained when the main course wasn't ready when you wanted it to be.

Ugh, I just realized I'm getting dragged down into these awful posts, time to log out for a while.

bootlace
06-14-2014, 07:58 PM
I actually tried letting some threads go past. They becomes literal hives of activity, all in agreement.

Basically, if we don't bump it with argument, the complainers will bump it with complaints. I would rather have both sides represented if it won't make a difference to bumping.

How about trying a more diplomatic approach like:


You're right. Set 2 coming out in 2 months is not really ideal and from a lot of people's perspective downright sucks. CZE would have probably loved nothing more than releasing some PVE content but unfortunately it's not ready and early unpolished release will suck out all the hype and might put the game's success in real jeopardy. Money is also short for CZE who's plans have been pushed back tremendously and a big lawsuit is looming - so set 2 will really help the company stay afloat financially. Furthermore card designers are too far ahead of other departments and releasing PVP sets will help in keeping them from becoming dead weight.

Given the difficult situation the company finds itself in, this decision seems necessary to ensure the project stays alive. Hope you find a way to stick around because the company has the players best intentions in mind in the grand scheme of things - and that's not something that can be said about many other companies.

Ju66ernaut
06-14-2014, 08:02 PM
worst analogy ever, i would tell them to remake it, and if they didn't i would pay for my appetizer and leave. And coming from 15 years in hospitality industry, i would be shocked if a "fancy restaurant" even tried this

Thank you for the critique and for feeding so many people. I'll bite my tongue now.

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 08:03 PM
I did try that, long ago...

Seriously though, I have given up trying to be diplomatic about it - I get the facts out and be polite. Then people ignore the facts and insult me, and I get pissed off.

It's a vicious cycle.

I do this to help, which is the depressing thing. It's not like I know everything and I need to show off, I just want happy forums, and always get spat on.

bojanglesz
06-14-2014, 09:50 PM
I did try that, long ago...

Seriously though, I have given up trying to be diplomatic about it - I get the facts out and be polite. Then people ignore the facts and insult me, and I get pissed off.

It's a vicious cycle.

I do this to help, which is the depressing thing. It's not like I know everything and I need to show off, I just want happy forums, and always get spat on.

Wow you're so persecuted, I had no idea.

I'm just kidding. People deserve to know CZE's ineptitude at getting features out on time/at all

Bells
06-15-2014, 12:02 AM
i love the large amount of Upper tier backers that never showed up EVER before in the forums but just so happens to pop up now to complaint "where is mah stuff'' recently... also love how every single one of them were all Playing sicne day one of alpha, putting money and effort in the game, making tons of bug report... just.... never.... here. Except now... when they want to shittalk the game...


...outstanding stuff.

sukebe
06-15-2014, 12:58 AM
Normally I would post quotes of all the things I liked or didnt like that others have said. However, that would pretty much repeat everything that Xenavire has said and would likely be ignored (like most of my posts). So instead I will just do it this way:

1: This is closed beta for the pvp half of the game. They made this clear multiple times so if you still don't know it, I'm not sure what else we can say that will make you realize that.
2: There are many, many, many, many (etc) posts in the other threads on this EXACT same topic that explain why the second set is needed and how it does not affect PVEs release in any way so if you actually cared about this you would know the answer by now.
3a: OP has a right to be upset and make this know to others.
3b: when something you want to post is already on the first page multiple times, common sense and the slightest shred of manners should tell you that your post should be placed in one of those 2 threads, not in yet another thread on the same topic.
3c: Since the OP placed in yet another thread on the SAME TOPIC, we cannot really be blamed for our annoyance at this rude, self absorbed behavior.
4: if people are allowed to post new threads on the SAME TOPIC over and over again spew closed minded, short sighted hate (or more kindly, whine none stop) people like Xenavire and myself (and all the others that do so) are completely within our right to post our views (many of which are more knowledgeable and first hand since many have actually gone to CZE and interacted with the team personally*) an equal number of times in these horribly repetitive posts.

*I am not one of those people unfortunately. Never been to CZE but I do hope to go sometime.

down2one
06-15-2014, 01:42 AM
I honestly hope that the game won't go Open Beta unless some form of playable PVE goes live.

Imagine a person who just recently learned of Hex, watched all the awesome Hex videos, and got excited of all the features of the game. With so many expectations, the person downloaded the Open Beta Client, fired it up then saw... PVP only content.

Imagine that person's reaction would be.
PVP only content in Open Beta.
That you have to pay for.
After all the exciting videos about a robust MMOTCG.

I may be the only one who's saying this (off-topic, probably yeah). But please CZE, don't go into Open Beta unless we have some form of playable PVE.

(PS:To tell you the truth, I'm saying this because I would really be embarrassed in front of my friends if this happened. Since I've been sharing this awesome game to my TCG friends for a long time.)

Derringer
06-15-2014, 01:50 AM
Yeah, I have much sympathy with the OP. I don't know just how much CZE is out of their depth with all the coding stuff, which has me very concerned considering the things mentioned during Cory's E3 interview. Combined with the slow development, combined with the sketchy problems with needing to verify our purchases with very sensitive personal info (German law or not, acknowledged by CZE or not, this is still a huge problem that I think people are very justified in being uncomorftanble with; I don't particularly care how many times CZE vouches for the process, I won't be sending a scrap of info.) combined with the law suit...

The_Lannisters
06-15-2014, 02:14 AM
Funny that chess has been played on the same board, with the same pieces and rules for centuries and it is still going strong but nowadays people get bored after a few months of playing with hundreds of cards, thousands of combos.

poizonous
06-15-2014, 02:24 AM
Funny that chess has been played on the same board, with the same pieces and rules for centuries and it is still going strong but nowadays people get bored after a few months of playing with hundreds of cards, thousands of combos.

"Thousands of combos".... Excuse me while I point out there are hardly Thousands of combos, well sure maybe there are but the amount of "Good" combos is much smaller and not even in the 10's. Most people are here for competitive play and with a small amount of competitive decks it will make the game stale. Hell I played MtG since Alpha set and I didnt whine when they introduced Beta set. It would be hysterical to picture the person who complained about it like "Man I dont even have all the cards from set 1, why are they bringing more out" I would personally love to kick that person for being stupid if 1 such existed

ElvesRUs
06-15-2014, 03:16 AM
I'm trying to figure out the appeal of pvp to new players once the game is released when (at this rate) there will be a minimum of 3 sets, and very possibly 4, out by said release. And more, many people will have full playsets of what they want of at least the first 3 sets, as well as knowing them pretty damn well. What incentive is there for new players to have to play so much catchup just to be competitive? Of course you can just release 3 sets during beta (closed and open) and start set 4 upon actual release for a brand new block but, if that's the plan you'd think they'd let beta peeps know. I dunno, seems like a really big "putting the horse before the cart".

Sadeyx
06-15-2014, 03:56 AM
Cory states:
"Countless TCGs died because new content wasn’t available to keep the game fresh, provide new experiences."

I'd urge Cory to re-consider this or at least be more truthful about the reasons. TCG's..that are fully released(!).. die, HEX is in Beta stage and not yet released, so this argument / reason is extremely weak and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. How can a game die, that has not been released to the public yet? Closed beta tester and kickstart supports are smart people are not about to drop their support and wont simply quit. In anycase, it sounds like you are in fact saying that the business right now is utterly dependant on CLOSED BETA TESTERS to pay and pay and pay.

In addition, TCG's that release sets 'too frequently' die because most players simply can NOT spend that much money and those which can dominate the game field. Read.. pay to win. Which the gaming community in general is very sensitive about.

On the whole, while I'm not a kickstarter supporter I have completely sympathy for the OP. It feels like HEX are spending most of their development time creating new sets to pull in..yet more money during closed beta instead of focusing on parts of the game which are 'free'. at the very least we need double back and stat tracking to record our wins and losses, something to justify the time and money spent.

fido_one
06-15-2014, 04:25 AM
... Most people are here for competitive play ...

No.

Ebynfel
06-15-2014, 05:04 AM
Cory states:
"Countless TCGs died because new content wasn’t available to keep the game fresh, provide new experiences."

I'd urge Cory to re-consider this or at least be more truthful about the reasons. TCG's..that are fully released(!).. die, HEX is in Beta stage and not yet released, so this argument / reason is extremely weak and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. How can a game die, that has not been released to the public yet? Closed beta tester and kickstart supports are smart people are not about to drop their support and wont simply quit. In anycase, it sounds like you are in fact saying that the business right now is utterly dependant on CLOSED BETA TESTERS to pay and pay and pay.

In addition, TCG's that release sets 'too frequently' die because most players simply can NOT spend that much money and those which can dominate the game field. Read.. pay to win. Which the gaming community in general is very sensitive about.

On the whole, while I'm not a kickstarter supporter I have completely sympathy for the OP. It feels like HEX are spending most of their development time creating new sets to pull in..yet more money during closed beta instead of focusing on parts of the game which are 'free'. at the very least we need double back and stat tracking to record our wins and losses, something to justify the time and money spent.

Honestly, though, Set 2's release is about releasing content that has been completed, not about a cash grab. Adding something is good. Not everyone will see it that way and I understand. We've been told that the people designing PVP sets work independently of PVE. Set 2 release should have little to no effect on PVE.

Now, saying this. I get it. I understand the OP's disappointment, I want all of this two. Yes, I backed at Pro Player. I backed at Pro Player not because I am a Pro, but because it seemed to me to be an insane value. With all of the cards I was looking at on the PVP side, I just kept thinking "How many of those will make great PVE decks?" I wanted them, and so I too kthe value I could reasonably scratch together and got it. Doesn't by any means make me a "Pro Player" or just "PVP focused." As a matter of fact, I dislike drafting and love constructed. Draft is a good way to get cards and PVE promises to be extremely entertaining, and I wanted in.

Now, after all of that, I just don't get where getting something hurts. I guess I'm just not PVE enough? Sure, I kinda had to double take at the thought of Set 2 coming, but why all the hate? Something developed independently of PVE is nearing completion and on the horizon. PVP sets we know will drop about every 3 months. I guess I just don't see the huge issue here and it may be me. I mean, I want all the same things everyone else wants here. I WANT guilds, I WANT PVE, I WANT Double Backs and the Auction house and all the cool stuff. But set 2, if it doesn't delay that, then where's the harm? These are two sides of the same game being developed in parallel, and I just don't see the harm. We have been told PVE will get here when it's implemented. We know that several core features need to arrive first. I think the delay on the Auction House is far worse than the announcement of set 2 some 2 months from now, and I hope that it doesn't take long before we have that, and trading.

TLDR; I don't get it. O.o

Odai
06-15-2014, 05:08 AM
i feel the same way, you ar enot allone.

jimmywolf
06-15-2014, 05:46 AM
i don't post often but enjoy reading the random post each day, for me it a disappointment necessary delays or not. it feel like lot this ground work is taken much longer then it should, it could simply be a mater of perception since i been following hex from KS countdown till now. however i enjoy how another game been handle it much more an think hex should copy a similar format or follow a similar pattern.

stonehearth

http://radiant-entertainment.com/

every Tuesdays they talk about their progress an what their doing, what going on next.


here is a road map detailing what they got done, their progress on what next an what been work on very detail an nice.

http://radiant-entertainment.com/roadmap/


main issues i have with hex is it feel like they can't meet/keep deadlines an progress keep slipping farther away with information been vague or don't worry i seen the end result, when you get it you love it!

i love cory an his blog it enjoyable stuff an enjoy every update we do get but a year later an we only have a bare basic form of the grand game they envision is not a good sign, especially with no clear define what been causing the delay, what will happen that will/would speed up the process, what the real ETA on major millstones.



TLDR

check the links i think HEX should do a similar approach too that game an inform as little better

Mahes
06-15-2014, 05:55 AM
Cory states:
"Countless TCGs died because new content wasn’t available to keep the game fresh, provide new experiences."

I'd urge Cory to re-consider this or at least be more truthful about the reasons. TCG's..that are fully released(!).. die, HEX is in Beta stage and not yet released, so this argument / reason is extremely weak and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. How can a game die, that has not been released to the public yet? Closed beta tester and kickstart supports are smart people are not about to drop their support and wont simply quit. In anycase, it sounds like you are in fact saying that the business right now is utterly dependant on CLOSED BETA TESTERS to pay and pay and pay.

In addition, TCG's that release sets 'too frequently' die because most players simply can NOT spend that much money and those which can dominate the game field. Read.. pay to win. Which the gaming community in general is very sensitive about.

On the whole, while I'm not a kickstarter supporter I have completely sympathy for the OP. It feels like HEX are spending most of their development time creating new sets to pull in..yet more money during closed beta instead of focusing on parts of the game which are 'free'. at the very least we need double back and stat tracking to record our wins and losses, something to justify the time and money spent.

This is a valid argument.

Dear Cory, please explain how a game that is not alive....dies? I can see the concern of this game not making it to live. Are the current backers actually expected to give more money to keep the game running? Is this the grand plan?

Also I do not think Set 2 is ready at all. Everyone keeps mentioning that we should release content that is ready to go. I think Set 2 is far from ready to go and that they are just stating a hypothetical date for when they think set 2 will be ready for testing.

If Set 2 were ready to go, why not release it now????????

Unhurtable
06-15-2014, 06:14 AM
Oh em gee, you've spent a minuscule amount on a kickstarted game that's in progress and decided to invite it's backers to try out the game EARLY... Be patient, stop whinging, gtfo until release or stfu... Nuf said...

These threads need to be deleted, it's poisoning the forums...

For some people it wasn't a "miniscule amount". These people are reasonably allowed to be upset, especially when comparing beta in Hex to beta in other games in terms of the frequency of updates and new content.

I wonder who is poisoning the forums. People stating their opinion about something or the person trying to paint those people in a bad light and telling them to leave the discussion and let people with "allowed" opinions stay.


Funny that chess has been played on the same board, with the same pieces and rules for centuries and it is still going strong but nowadays people get bored after a few months of playing with hundreds of cards, thousands of combos.

"Strong"

Also, those are totally different arenas. Chess is essentially not in competition with any other game, Hex and other videogames are, and as such essentially must introduce either great content at regular intervals or lots of content at short intervals.

MuffLord4
06-15-2014, 06:24 AM
Thing is, most people are losing faith in the PVE part of hex, I feel like the programmers at Hex LLC didnt know what they're up against. I feel like PvE will be lackluster KI and very hard to do in this game, we haven't seen ANY PvE footage yet, nothing that even indicates that PvE is even being developed except for some backgrounds etc. We haven't seen any PVE gameplay and I think that's something that puts many people off.

Marsden
06-15-2014, 06:26 AM
I'm not losing any faith in any part of Hex. I'm very happy for things to grow and be released as they are ready and not before. I have no problem with however long that process takes.

mudkip
06-15-2014, 06:38 AM
On the April 23rd Cory blog post he said he has "played in a dungeon IN GAME, not just with paper proxies." So two months later we can't be too far off a preview or something?

Chiany
06-15-2014, 06:46 AM
On the April 23rd Cory blog post he said he has "played in a dungeon IN GAME, not just with paper proxies." So two months later we can't be too far off a preview or something?

You would think so, but Cory & Co think we need everything to be shiny before we get to see it...

We’ll continue to show PVE progress as it develops and becomes polished enough for public display.

RobHaven
06-15-2014, 07:52 AM
i love the large amount of Upper tier backers that never showed up EVER before in the forums but just so happens to pop up now to complaint "where is mah stuff'' recently... also love how every single one of them were all Playing sicne day one of alpha, putting money and effort in the game, making tons of bug report... just.... never.... here. Except now... when they want to shittalk the game...


...outstanding stuff.

I don't know if you'd consider me a part of that group - I've spent over a grand on this game, and I almost never post anymore. I've been wanting to post my displeasure for a little while because I'm getting so frustrated. For me it wasn't the announcement of set 2 that broke the camel's back, it was the delay of the June 18 patch. I feel like [at this point] it's my own fault for getting my hopes up that a deadline will actually be met.

I don't really understand why you take issue with this, though. By your own admission I've been supporting the game in multiple ways. I backed from the first day I heard about Hex (thanks Penny Arcade!), I have a bunch of bugs logged into the spreadsheet, I spent way more than I could/should, I gave feedback early and often (before I stopped posting)...and I kept my criticisms to a bare minimum. I tried my best to hold my tongue and let CZE do what they do. I tried to be patient and wait for the things I want most (double backs and PvE); I feel neglected.

At what point do I earn the right to be upset? At what point does it become okay for me to say that I'm not happy anymore? There is way too much potential for me to walk away from this, but staying positive has become increasingly harder to do.

bootlace
06-15-2014, 08:22 AM
i love the large amount of Upper tier backers that never showed up EVER before in the forums but just so happens to pop up now to complaint "where is mah stuff'' recently... also love how every single one of them were all Playing sicne day one of alpha, putting money and effort in the game, making tons of bug report... just.... never.... here. Except now... when they want to shittalk the game...


...outstanding stuff.

I love how you seem to know exactly what the large amount of upper tier backers are or aren't doing. Even if you knew the exact identities of these so called upper tier backers and took the time to analyze all of their forum post history. there's still a world outside of these forums and many ways which they could have contributed/supported the game without you being aware of (besides, you know, the crapton of money they have already invested).

This is exactly the type of so called 'CZE supporting' post that has no constructive aspect whatsoever. Literally just attacking other people without even the side benefit of some kind of direct feedback relating to the game.

fido_one
06-15-2014, 08:27 AM
At what point do I earn the right to be upset? At what point does it become okay for me to say that I'm not happy anymore? There is way too much potential for me to walk away from this, but staying positive has become increasingly harder to do.

This - while I don't share as much angst as some of these posts, I am also tired of other people trying to shut out negative points directed at posters who are obviously not trolling. The OP on this thread fits into the same category - for those saying 'stick to other threads', if I lurked for a year and supported the game and wanted to vent, I think it's justified to start your own thread on the matter.

Xenavire
06-15-2014, 08:34 AM
This - while I don't share as much angst as some of these posts, I am also tired of other people trying to shut out negative points directed at posters who are obviously not trolling. The OP on this thread fits into the same category - for those saying 'stick to other threads', if I lurked for a year and supported the game and wanted to vent, I think it's justified to start your own thread on the matter.

Except it isn't justified, and it is quite clearly in violation of the CoC.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 08:37 AM
It's odd. Don't people who are satisfied have just as much right to express their thinking as you do? I think so. Focus on why you're upset and what your issues are, not on people expressing themselves that disagree with you. I disagree with pretty much everything either side says, but I appreciate why people defend CZE. Because I think all things considered they're doing a fine job. Could things be better? Absolutely, could they be worse? Absolutely. But turning the forums over to people who mindlessly complain without any understanding of what is going on behind the scenes is the worst idea anyone has ever had.

Tl;dr yes you have a right to bitch, other people also have a right to bitch about you bitching. Then you have a right to bitch about them bitching at your bitchery... Then I have a right to come bitch about your bitching that they are bitching about your bitchery. Rights are not the question. Go to a constitution forum if you really want a healthy debate about how far your rights to bitch go.

fido_one
06-15-2014, 08:52 AM
Except it isn't justified, and it is quite clearly in violation of the CoC.

Well we disagree on if it is justified. Against my own opinions on the complaint[s], I think it's justified. Starting a new thread is in violation of the CoC. But it's a very minor rule and if I put a lot into the game and got fed up in the way the OP has, I can see why they didn't want their stance to be lost in a flood of other things. Again, I don't agree with it, but I understand it and think it would do more harm to take the OPs that are members of the community and thump them with the CoC rule that is clearly designed for trolls.

Gwaer, I agree with what you said but am hesitant on this:


But turning the forums over to people who mindlessly complain without any understanding of what is going on behind the scenes is the worst idea anyone has ever had.


I don't think these are mindless complaints. Yeah, we don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but as RobHaven elegantly put, at some point people have the right to complain. Some good community veterans have hit their limit and when they provide that negative feedback, a lot of us seem to go on the attack towards them which isn't right.

Flight
06-15-2014, 08:57 AM
I know that supposedly PVE and PVP are separate but Crypt has a finite amount of people and resources and they should not be using them to advance even more content when your original content either still doesn't work or hasn't even been released. Deliver on what you promised before moving beyond it.


What's not being said is that the expansion adds more complexity and new rules. This undeniably puts PvE back even when it's a separate team working on the expansion.

I also think justifying it by saying we've been playing with the same cards for seven months is a misnomer. As the game isn't live and hasn't been released what's actually being admitted is card and Kickstarter distribution happened too early.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 09:06 AM
Getting disenfranchised is a well understood gamer theme. You should see how I talked about blizzard and wow when I was in the alpha, vs how I talk about those subjects now, it's night and day. I've been here since the beginning as well. I wish the future would arrive today, I'm tired of waiting for PVE, and the other kickstarter features, but I've been in the game industry a long time, I was in an alpha test for a game 13 years before it released. I've seen way worse productions than this.

Ive always been against letting so many people into the alpha. It's not for everyone, that's really what my mindless complaint comment was directed toward. People that have no experience with game development making comparisons to what this game is going through vs their idea of what all game development goes through.

@Flight: The PVE complexity question assumes that the mechanics coming in set 2 weren't already being developed in the PVE cards, which they very easily could have a lot of interesting mechanics PVE was planning to show off before they ended up in a PVP set.

Flight
06-15-2014, 09:17 AM
I was in an alpha test for a game 13 years before it released. I've seen way worse productions than this.


The thing is here that you didn't pay $500 to be an alpha tester then get asked to spend more money before the product was delivered.

The problem right now is that the company and the product are at their highest risk of failure while still not releasing what has already been paid for.

To be clear I intend to invest not insignifcant sums in expansion 2 and I believe in Cory and in Crypto. But there is increasing risk and Cory is asking for increasing levels of trust, particularly in light of WotCs action.


I suspect a reward for our emotional and physical investment is in order and will be surprised if it isn't rewarded with some sort of bonus for purchases when set 2 is released - perhaps a buy 2 booster boxes get a third free or something along those lines.




Ive always been against letting so many people into the alpha. It's not for everyone, that's really what my mindless complaint comment was directed toward. People that have no experience with game development making comparisons to what this game is going through vs their idea of what all game development goes through.

@Flight: The PVE complexity question assumes that the mechanics coming in set 2 weren't already being developed in the PVE cards, which they very easily could have a lot of interesting mechanics PVE was planning to show off before they ended up in a PVP set.


1. This is very far beyond alpha. A line was drawn under that when KS was distributed and people started to pay to play.

2. I've worked in IT and software development at a Corporate level for a couple of decades, so I understand the principles you underline. The feature set for PvE release and the requirements on the engine should have been defined a long time ago, but that almost certainly didn't get a line drawn under it. For example we know that various mechanics to deal with shard/resource flood/drought exist in set 2.

It's beyond doubt in my mind that PvE has been put back (up in the air whether that's weeks or mnths) and set 2 prioritized over it. Happy to be corrected on that by someone from Crypto but frankly that would worry me more.

Xtopher
06-15-2014, 09:24 AM
I suspect a reward for our emotional and physical investment is in order and will be surprised if it isn't rewarded with some sort of bonus for purchases when set 2 is released - perhaps a buy 2 booster boxes get a third free or something along those lines.
Wow. That's by far the most optimistic thing I've read around here in quite awhile.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 09:24 AM
Lol, I spent over $5,000 in hex. So I am in whatever boat you are. However, neither of us paid any money to be part of an alpha, we paid for a finished product. The alpha was thrown in last minute as a favor, which I still feel is the biggest mistake that has been made re:Hex development. You could be sitting by like many other kickstarter projects with nothing to show for it until a full release.

i do not expect a set 2 discount. Honestly I don't want one. I want them to value their product, and make enough money from set two to get PVE out the door.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 09:35 AM
1. This is very far beyond alpha. A line was drawn under that when KS was distributed and people started to pay to play.


Hearthsone and scrolls both had monetized alphas. Having to pay to play in an alpha, thanks to steam green light and just the direction of crowd funded game development is becoming increasingly more common. Though we are in a 'beta' now... I'd call it an extremely early beta.


*woops* on the chain post!

Xenavire
06-15-2014, 09:38 AM
It's beyond doubt in my mind that PvE has been put back (up in the air whether that's weeks or mnths) and set 2 prioritized over it. Happy to be corrected on that by someone from Crypto but frankly that would worry me more.

If you had actually read the other thread you would have seen that they already stated that the PvP has not slowed down the PvE. That was posted long before this thread. And it is another reason why you shouldn't be making duplicate threads.

Flight
06-15-2014, 09:44 AM
And it is another reason why you shouldn't be making duplicate threads.


I didn't make the thread.

If I start another one I'll be sure to seek your permission first.


Considering you've posted nearly 150 times for every single time I have you look stupid pulling me up for the number of posts I make.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 09:46 AM
I didn't make the thread.

If I start another one I'll be sure to seek your permission first.
A cursory glance at the first page should be sufficient, wouldn't want everyone bothering xenavire.

Xenavire
06-15-2014, 10:07 AM
I didn't make the thread.

If I start another one I'll be sure to seek your permission first.


Considering you've posted nearly 150 times for every single time I have you look stupid pulling me up for the number of posts I make.

Ok, poor choice of words, I was using 'you' as a group word, not directed at you personally. Second or third time I have been caught out like this, I really have to stop using casual language in my posts.

So sorry, but I wasn't actually referring to you, I was just using your post as an example.

fido_one
06-15-2014, 10:07 AM
2. I've worked in IT and software development at a Corporate level for a couple of decades, so I understand the principles you underline. The feature set for PvE release and the requirements on the engine should have been defined a long time ago, but that almost certainly didn't get a line drawn under it. For example we know that various mechanics to deal with shard/resource flood/drought exist in set 2.

I'm in my second CIO position (don't get excited, I work for academics, so I do all the things that a CIO does except I get paid bupkiss) and have managed my fair share of software development and other multi-million dollar projects. One of the main things I learned, years ago when working in corporate, is that 90% of what I think is going on with projects at other places is so far from my reality that it's comical.

I just wouldn't be so sure in your assessments, I make comments all the time regarding the inner workings of HexEnt, but it's all 100% conjecture. I can see a million reasons of why PvE would have had a line drawn under it and we still end up here in this thread.

Until one of us works at CZE and breaks an NDA, let's at least realize that we are, all of us, talking squarely out of our asses when it comes to what is going on behind the scenes in developing Hex.

Flight
06-15-2014, 10:21 AM
I'm in my second CIO position (don't get excited, I work for academics, so I do all the things that a CIO does except I get paid bupkiss) and have managed my fair share of software development and other multi-million dollar projects. One of the main things I learned, years ago when working in corporate, is that 90% of what I think is going on with projects at other places is so far from my reality that it's comical.

I just wouldn't be so sure in your assessments, I make comments all the time regarding the inner workings of HexEnt, but it's all 100% conjecture. I can see a million reasons of why PvE would have had a line drawn under it and we still end up here in this thread.

Until one of us works at CZE and breaks an NDA, let's at least realize that we are, all of us, talking squarely out of our asses when it comes to what is going on behind the scenes in developing Hex.


I'm sure you'd agree then that the feature set for both the engine and PvE should have had a line drawn underneath it a long time ago and that nobody in the company should have the power to change that ?

It's a fine line that prevents zeal from being reckless.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 10:24 AM
Once again, you assume that the set 2 mechanics weren't already in the PVE design plans that were underlined. Also the engine needs to be able to quickly and easily integrate new mechanics, they're releasing a new PVP set every 3 months. PVE has to be able to deal with that.

fido_one
06-15-2014, 10:35 AM
I'm sure you'd agree then that the feature set for both the engine and PvE should have had a line drawn underneath it a long time ago and that nobody in the company should have the power to change that ?

It's a fine line that prevents zeal from being reckless.

Yeah, I think the engine and PvE should have had a line drawn underneath them, and everything I've seen from CZE and HexEnt alludes that they did have those lines drawn and probably still do. I wouldn't call that zeal as much as ambition; though I'll concede that it's a thin line of becoming reckless with either zeal or ambition.

As far as nobody having the power to change that, of course people do, that's the way everything in this world works (and that sucks). A lot of people will call my decisions as either careless, uninformed or reckless. It pains me to say that sometimes they are right. Most times, however, they just don't see the whole picture because they don't have the vantage point that comes with such a decision making position. Most times it's a sophie's choice situation in how you move forward. If you're outside of my department and/or institution and are making comments or suggestions on our decisions, I'll probably take those comments with a grain of salt as I'd be fired if I gave you all the elements that made up the choice.

If I were to agree that an emphasis on PvE or the engine was removed (and I don't agree on that point), I'd argue that the WotC suit would be enough of a force to swap most priorities in game development, regardless of of all well placed intentions, zeal and/or recklessness.

Flight
06-15-2014, 10:40 AM
Once again, you assume that the set 2 mechanics weren't already in the PVE design plans that were underlined. Also the engine needs to be able to quickly and easily integrate new mechanics, they're releasing a new PVP set every 3 months. PVE has to be able to deal with that.

There's been a number of reveals that make me think some of the features have been re-assessed relatively recently, most significantly resource screw/flood, which we are now told is addressed multiple ways in set 2.


Look, the core issue is this :

We have to release set 2 because 'CCGs die without cards'. The problem is we are even in a position to be considering the game dieing before we are in open beta or PvE has been released. There's a series of learning points here for the company and for the game.


Small changes to design features present risk to software projects which is way out of wack to their seeming complexity.


Hands up if you believed AH would go out this week when it was announced ?

Clawdius
06-15-2014, 10:44 AM
I've been a member of countless forums for games in practically every genre, and I used to be a strong proponent of letting the developers have enough rope to hang themselves, and most of the time that stance worked fine. Unfortunately I was also a pre-purchaser of Elemental : War of Magic. E:WoM had a lot of failings, but one of the biggest failings and my own personal shame is that every time people voiced dissent or said that they didn't believe the game could have a dev build that varied as much from the beta test builds as some of the claims that were being made and frankly at the end of the day it set up an unfortunate echo chamber effect.

Every time a thread was made voicing concerns, six people hopped in to quote Brad Wardell saying things about how the beta wouldn't be fun on purpose, and that the purpose of the tests was to expose the rough edges of the game and polish them down to the point that even the more tedious tasks were fun. As far as I could tell, that really kind of had to be what I was witnessing, the beta got progressively less entertaining after Beta 2 and I could fathom no other reason for the steady release of builds that made the game worse with every subsequent version.

Ever since E:WoM shipped and was absolute garbage I've done what I could to temper my own personal feelings of optimistic balderdash and try to at least empathize with people in various forums who don't necessarily feel that a game is progressing as quickly as it could be or is heading in the wrong direction or focusing on the wrong aspects.

At the end of the day there's a reason why half a dozen threads have cropped up with people expressing bafflement and unease at the announcement of set 2. The announcement that we would see a PVE livestream "Further in the future" came something like 387 days ago. The AI is still so inept that it will forgo blocking with a howling brave, when not doing so is certain death and the enemy creature doesn't have crush. There are a great many other baffling AI issues with what we have seen of the AI, and while I appreciate the fact that this is some sort of "Placeholder AI" and maybe Pinocchio was never meant to be a real boy it might be nice if we could see some progress from semi-functional proof of concept (AI that isn't handed a perfect hand and actually draws and mulligans is atypical at best after all) to the promised land of one of the best TCG AIs that has ever been created.

Again, I find it somewhat amusing that Hex LLC could have put forth a "PVE" livestream months ago with a PVP match using PVE cards and assets and people would almost certainly feel better about the state of PVE right now.

And while it's easy to say that E:WoM is an entirely different situation and the lofty promises of a well known and arguably charismatic spokesman that turned out to be composed of nothing more than hot air in that case don't mean that we've got a similar situation on our hands. I'd just like to see some proof, improvement in the AI might be nice. The last time I have seen this many people who rarely if ever post all crawl out of the woodwork to express discontent and unease, they were right and I was one of the ones entreating them to be patient and trust the developers. I try not to make that same mistake again.

We'll all find out Tuesday what their plans for the future hold, at it seems like least slacker backers won't be stuck with a single starter deck for too much longer.

fido_one
06-15-2014, 10:54 AM
Ever since E:WoM shipped and was absolute garbage I've done what I could to temper my own personal feelings of optimistic balderdash and try to at least empathize with people in various forums who don't necessarily feel that a game is progressing as quickly as it could be or is heading in the wrong direction or focusing on the wrong aspects.


Ooooohhh I remember that! I wasn't involved in the forums when E:WoM was announced but man was I excited about the concept and man was I disappointed when they released that garbage.

Clawdius, very interesting perspective though having been more involved with the E:WoM mess, how do you think it compares with Hex at this stage? I signed on for the PvE mostly, but I have been unexpectedly LOVING the drafts in beta. So anytime I get the feeling of 'is this just all smoke and mirrors?' from HexEnt I just have to look at how fun this game is even if it's delivering on such a small scope of the spectrum it promised. I can't imagine E:WoM ever showed as much potential as Hex has at any stage of its development (or even whatever iteration they are on the subsequent, better-baked games).

Clawdius
06-15-2014, 11:02 AM
Everything we've seen for Hex has been great, so there is a very real chance that they do have a unicorn behind that curtain and not just a donkey with a plunger on its head. I'm just getting a little concerned at this point that they haven't shown us even a PVE livestream, or even a completely self contained PVE video that isn't a livestream and can be controlled to the Nth degree.

E:WoM was pretty, but shallow. Hex has the depth of play that has been promised, but our stand in for the much vaunted revolutionary AI opponent is still sitting in the corner eating paste.

Xenavire
06-15-2014, 11:02 AM
There's been a number of reveals that make me think some of the features have been re-assessed relatively recently, most significantly resource screw/flood, which we are now told is addressed multiple ways in set 2.



If you think this was anything but the original plan, you obviously don't know how TCG's or TCG design work. They were always going to add more colour fixing, curve fixing, and general all around shard fixing cards.



I've been a member of countless forums for games in practically every genre, and I used to be a strong proponent of letting the developers have enough rope to hang themselves, and most of the time that stance worked fine. Unfortunately I was also a pre-purchaser of Elemental : War of Magic. E:WoM had a lot of failings, but one of the biggest failings and my own personal shame is that every time people voiced dissent or said that they didn't believe the game could have a dev build that varied as much from the beta test builds as some of the claims that were being made and frankly at the end of the day it set up an unfortunate echo chamber effect.

Every time a thread was made voicing concerns, six people hopped in to quote Brad Wardell saying things about how the beta wouldn't be fun on purpose, and that the purpose of the tests was to expose the rough edges of the game and polish them down to the point that even the more tedious tasks were fun. As far as I could tell, that really kind of had to be what I was witnessing, the beta got progressively less entertaining after Beta 2 and I could fathom no other reason for the steady release of builds that made the game worse with every subsequent version.

Ever since E:WoM shipped and was absolute garbage I've done what I could to temper my own personal feelings of optimistic balderdash and try to at least empathize with people in various forums who don't necessarily feel that a game is progressing as quickly as it could be or is heading in the wrong direction or focusing on the wrong aspects.

At the end of the day there's a reason why half a dozen threads have cropped up with people expressing bafflement and unease at the announcement of set 2. The announcement that we would see a PVE livestream "Further in the future" came something like 387 days ago. The AI is still so inept that it will forgo blocking with a howling brave, when not doing so is certain death and the enemy creature doesn't have crush. There are a great many other baffling AI issues with what we have seen of the AI, and while I appreciate the fact that this is some sort of "Placeholder AI" and maybe Pinocchio was never meant to be a real boy it might be nice if we could see some progress from semi-functional proof of concept (AI that isn't handed a perfect hand and actually draws and mulligans is atypical at best after all) to the promised land of one of the best TCG AIs that has ever been created.

Again, I find it somewhat amusing that Hex LLC could have put forth a "PVE" livestream months ago with a PVP match using PVE cards and assets and people would almost certainly feel better about the state of PVE right now.

And while it's easy to say that E:WoM is an entirely different situation and the lofty promises of a well known and arguably charismatic spokesman that turned out to be composed of nothing more than hot air in that case don't mean that we've got a similar situation on our hands. I'd just like to see some proof, improvement in the AI might be nice. The last time I have seen this many people who rarely if ever post all crawl out of the woodwork to express discontent and unease, they were right and I was one of the ones entreating them to be patient and trust the developers. I try not to make that same mistake again.

We'll all find out Tuesday what their plans for the future hold, at it seems like least slacker backers won't be stuck with a single starter deck for too much longer.


I appreciate what you are trying to say, but we have multiple reports from people who are dangerously close to breaking NDA's saying that PvE is working out well, and is in good shape.

If we didn't have reputable sources reporting back about it, I would probably be panicking too, but I have no reason to worry yet.
Also want ot point out that not showing early footage is probably a good idea, depending on what kinds of changes PvE has gone through. Showing us one thing and giving us another is a sure way to piss people off. (I take it as a lose-lose situation.)

fido_one
06-15-2014, 11:05 AM
...our stand in for the much vaunted revolutionary AI opponent is still sitting in the corner eating paste.

Oh man, I needed a laugh today, thank you.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 11:05 AM
Set 2 was always going to have more ways to deal with resource screw. That's not a change, it's a feature being touted. Set 3 will also have different ways to deal with resource management. I fail to see what that has to do with PVE being feature locked.

Clawdius, nothing you could have done would have changed that outcome. Realtalk: Hex cannot possibly have the budget to fundamentally change direction. Either set 2 keeps development going long enough for PVE to be released or it doesn't. Bitching isn't going to help the game, literally all it can do is drive people away and hurt the game. In no way could it be beneficial. CZE knows they're behind schedule. They know the situation is not ideal, and are working hard to correct it. They're not feeding BS about the beta supposed to be unfun. They're trying to make it as fun as possible in this stage of development as they can.

additionally. Set one is the best balanced single set of any tcg I've ever played. The number of possibilities for viable decks is incredible. If they can keep that up with set2 I am certain it will make enough money to keep the lights on and development running. If god forbid they have to release set 3 before we see PVE. As long as the quality stays as good as it is now the game will manage to keep being developed because it's a really well done tcg, but CZE, Hex Entertainment, everyone at those companies, everyone at game forge, everyone on the forums knows that this game will not go nuclear until PVE is released. For the game to be a huge success PVE has to hit a home run. And it has to do it first swing. Everyone has been waiting for it and anticipating it.

Clawdius
06-15-2014, 11:10 AM
I'm not saying they have to give us something they didn't literally say themselves would be coming "further in the future" long before my Kickstarter contribution cleared. It has been like 387 days that I've been waiting for the livestream. I can't even refine my decks against the AI because it's a nitwit. I put up a 7/7 flyer and all of a sudden the enemy stopped attacking with its 8 creatures because I could kill one of them potentially. That wouldn't have been much of an issue, but I had 2 health, any one of those 8 creatures getting through was plenty enough to kill me.

I'm sure that they don't want to show anything that isn't set in stone and I can respect that, I agree that with giving the community information it's a catch 22, they will never have enough to satisfy everyone even if you make daily progress reports ala Starbound. But I do think there's such a thing as playing your cards too close to the vest with a game that was Kickstarted, I think PVE has had enough time behind the iron curtain, I have some serious money riding on whether that curtain is hiding a themepark or a cesspit and damnit baby needs a new pair of shoes.

fido_one
06-15-2014, 11:12 AM
Set 2 was always going to have more ways to deal with resource screw. That's not a change, it's a feature being touted. Set 3 will also have different ways to deal with resource management. I fail to see what that has to do with PVE being feature locked.

Clawdius, nothing you could have done would have changed that outcome. Realtalk: Hex cannot possibly have the budget to fundamentally change direction. Either set 2 keeps development going long enough for PVE to be released or it doesn't. Bitching isn't going to help the game, literally all it can do is drive people away and hurt the game. In no way could it be beneficial. CZE knows they're behind schedule. They know the situation is not ideal, and are working hard to correct it. They're not feeding BS about the beta supposed to be unfun. They're trying to make it as fun as possible in this stage of development as they can.

additionally. Set one is the best balanced single set of any tcg I've ever played. The number of possibilities for viable decks is incredible. If they can keep that up with set2 I am certain it will make enough money to keep the lights on and development running. If god forbid they have to release set 3 before we see PVE. As long as the quality stays as good as it is now the game will manage to keep being developed because it's a really well done tcg, but CZE, Hex Entertainment, everyone at those companies, everyone at game forge, everyone on the forums knows that this game will not go nuclear until PVE is released. For the game to be a huge success PVE has to hit a home run. And it has to do it first swing. Everyone has been waiting for it and anticipating it.

Well said.

Flight
06-15-2014, 11:13 AM
If you think this was anything but the original plan, you obviously don't know how TCG's or TCG design work. They were always going to add more colour fixing, curve fixing, and general all around shard fixing cards.


I can quote 3 or 4 hundred posts - actually make that thousand, which is bloody sad - from you saying people were wasting their time complaining about resource issues and nothing would come of it.


If only people would understand what random means .....



I suppose it's easy to set the narrative and obfuscate dissenting voices when you have four, five or six thousand posts.

Xenavire
06-15-2014, 11:20 AM
I'm not saying they have to give us something they didn't literally say themselves would be coming "further in the future" long before my Kickstarter contribution cleared. It has been like 387 days that I've been waiting for the livestream. I can't even refine my decks against the AI because it's a nitwit. I put up a 7/7 flyer and all of a sudden the enemy stopped attacking with its 8 creatures because I could kill one of them potentially. That wouldn't have been much of an issue, but I had 2 health, any one of those 8 creatures getting through was plenty enough to kill me.

I'm sure that they don't want to show anything that isn't set in stone and I can respect that, I agree that with giving the community information it's a catch 22, they will never have enough to satisfy everyone even if you make daily progress reports ala Starbound. But I do think there's such a thing as playing your cards too close to the vest with a game that was Kickstarted, I think PVE has had enough time behind the iron curtain, I have some serious money riding on whether that curtain is hiding a themepark or a cesspit and damnit baby needs a new pair of shoes.


OK, granted it has taken a hell of a long time. But we just had some of the most solid spoilers in a while this week. What if this is their plan - to start leaking info in a controlled manner over the next couple of weeks? You would literally be complaining about this just as they are leaking the info. (Not saying you shouldn't complain - go right ahead. But at this point I am not prepared to complain, because I have the feeling I would have egg on my face by the end of next month.)

I do hope the livestream comes though. I have been craving Hex livestreams on... Well anything, for ages.




I can quote 3 or 4 hundred posts - actually make that thousand, which is bloody sad - from you saying people were wasting their time complaining about resource issues and nothing would come of it.


If only people would understand what random means .....


Actually, those quotes would all be connected by the simple idea that no changes are needed to the core features, because upcoming cards would fix the issues.

And that is exactly what is happening.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 11:23 AM
I can quote 3 or 4 hundred posts - actually make that thousand, which is bloody sad - from you saying people were wasting their time complaining about resource issues and nothing would come of it.


If only people would understand what random means .....





Rotfl, set 2 isn't changing the randomizer. More color and resource fixing was always coming. Yes, you will still be able to get shard screwed. But you will have more options for how to mitigate it.

hex_colin
06-15-2014, 11:28 AM
I can quote 3 or 4 hundred posts - actually make that thousand, which is bloody sad - from you saying people were wasting their time complaining about resource issues and nothing would come of it.


If only people would understand what random means .....



I suppose it's easy to set the narrative and obfuscate dissenting voices when you have four, five or six thousand posts.

Complaining about resources issues didn't change anything. All of the Set 2 cards that impact resources or threshold have been planned for years, and were most certainly the first cards finalized in the Set. Also, the resource/threshold system isn't changing at all. Cards are being added that give deck-builders more tools to build more resilient decks, but random will still be random...

Flight
06-15-2014, 11:34 AM
Complaining about resources issues didn't change anything. All of the Set 2 cards that impact resources or threshold have been planned for years, and were most certainly the first cards finalized in the Set. Also, the resource/threshold system isn't changing at all. Cards are being added that give deck-builders more tools to build more resilient decks, but random will still be random...


Thanks Colin. Would you agree with my main point ? :



Look, the core issue is this :

We have to release set 2 because 'CCGs die without cards'. The problem is we are even in a position to be considering the game dieing before we are in open beta or PvE has been released. There's a series of learning points here for the company and for the game.

Gwaer
06-15-2014, 11:43 AM
There are so many games that are canceled every year... All games save COD, FIFA, Battlefield, etc have to worry about not shipping. Heck just recently the world of darkness mmo was canceled before open beta, it had been in development for years. Planning to make enough money that it doesn't happen is a good thing, not a bad one.

hacky
06-15-2014, 11:49 AM
Flight, you are forgetting that myself and many others DO consider Hex to be live.

I and others are Hex livestreamers. I've been drafting 3x set 1 for 2 months in beta. I will be drafting 3x set 1 for at least 10 more weeks. That is a long time, and reading that people wish us the same suffering as waiting for PVE seems shortsighted. We are going to need set 2's content to continue to make compelling content WHILE continually introducing new people to the game. Which we can do even if the beta is not open yet.

Do not make the mistake that us PVP players are unimportant. Set 2 being released is good for all players: current and future PVP and PVE players. Many of us PVP players are just as hype for PVE too. And you better believe that we're going to cast the living crap out of PvE when it's ready.

Xenavire
06-15-2014, 11:54 AM
Not every livestreamer considers the game live - I personally want to stream more than just drafts and constructed. I don't see the game as finished, but I totally agree with the other points you are making.

hacky
06-15-2014, 12:04 PM
Not every livestreamer considers the game live - I personally want to stream more than just drafts and constructed. I don't see the game as finished, but I totally agree with the other points you are making.

I don't see it. Are you saying live = fully-featured? I understand, but disagree.

I have a permanent collection. I can collect the PVP cards I will want for PVE. I can play with those cards to get a deep feel for how those cards work with and against each other. When PVE opens, I WILL have an advantage through my previous PVP play. :)

And I understand, for many people, it's PVE or bust. No desire for PVP. That's fine. But to say, as some are, that new PVP cards don't benefit every player of every mode... Do they think that they will never touch a PVP card? I learned this week, this will likely not be the case. Powerful cards are powerful, no matter if PVE exclusive or not.

Xenavire
06-15-2014, 12:07 PM
I just think it is live when the devs think it is live. I mean, we can feel that it is enough right now, or when PvE is rolled out, but the official word is what counts.

At the very least, I wouldn't call us live until we can trade. That is the core of a trading card game after all.

Clawdius
06-15-2014, 12:08 PM
One of the issues here is that the development of Hex is glacial. Not just in the sense that it is moving so slowly as to be able to be said to be standing still by a distant observer, but in the sense that what we can see of the development is just the tip of the iceberg. I think that practically any other announcement (besides perhaps something about the tablet client) wouldn't have been met with such an outpouring of disappointment. The glacier is heading towards land, it can't stay below the surface of the water forever, and set 2 was just an unexpected outcropping popping up above the surface, as more of the bulk of the development becomes visible how it all fits together should make itself apparent to everyone.

LNQ
06-15-2014, 12:14 PM
I have enjoyed drafting a lot, have played well over 20 drafts, totaling way more than 50 hours of game time, and after running out of tickets bought a bit of platinum to keep me going.

I am already eagerly waiting for the next set to make things much more interesting. I wholeheartedly understand and support CZEs planned schedule, even though I am first and foremost a PvE player in all games.

Two things I really wish would happen soon though are:
1) Auction House, so I can get platinum from my draft winnings
2) Open beta, so that tournaments fire quicker 24/7

Once open beta hits, that's when I would call the game truly live.

Xenavire
06-15-2014, 12:16 PM
One of the issues here is that the development of Hex is glacial. Not just in the sense that it is moving so slowly as to be able to be said to be standing still by a distant observer, but in the sense that what we can see of the development is just the tip of the iceberg. I think that practically any other announcement (besides perhaps something about the tablet client) wouldn't have been met with such an outpouring of disappointment. The glacier is heading towards land, it can't stay below the surface of the water forever, and set 2 was just an unexpected outcropping popping up above the surface, as more of the bulk of the development becomes visible how it all fits together should make itself apparent to everyone.

I just love this analogy, but can we change it to an iceberg so I can call the forums the titanic? :p (Sorry, I really need to unwind, this week has been pretty unhealthy. Too much toxicity.)

Werlix
06-15-2014, 01:57 PM
First off let me state I've been with Hex since the Kickstarter. I backed at King level because I wanted 2 things from this game:

1. PVE and King level granted me an exclusive card (lotus garden) that looked very attractive.
2. Drafting and the large amount of Set 1 booster packs made that an affordable option for me.

I believe I have been very patient with the development of this game and up till now have been fine with the explanations for the delays in development however the announcement of Set 2 have finally pushed my patience past the breaking point.

This is a CLOSED BETA of a game which by definition means the game hasn't even been released yet and your introducing NEW CONTENT to a game you haven't even gotten to work correctly or even with all the content you originally promised us would be in the game when it was actually released?

Cards are still not working properly and require bug reports. In games against AI or real people I STILL can't finish some games because it won't let me advance to the next phase of the turn. And drafts STILL don't work properly reliably enough for me to justify spending my real money on. And now you want to add an entire SET of cards to a game that isn't working properly to begin with?!

I have none of my rewards from my backer level for PVE, I have a stack of tickets from last year's Gencon that are useless because there's no PVE, I have an inventory full of treasure chests that are pointless to open because there's no PVE.

I joined this kickstarter exactly because it WAS NOT going to be an MTG clone, it was offering something new and different and right now all I'm being offered is an incomplete game that feels a lot like MTGO right now.

I know that supposedly PVE and PVP are separate but Crypt has a finite amount of people and resources and they should not be using them to advance even more content when your original content either still doesn't work or hasn't even been released. Deliver on what you promised before moving beyond it.

The game of Hex that was in the original vision looked amazing and I still very much want to see that game come about and will happily continue to back it but I believe Crypt has gotten off track.

I will not be buying any of Set 2 nor spending any more of my money on this game until I see advancement to making this game complete overall and not just going for more of what I see as a money grab.

I haven't been checking the forums over the weekend but saw this post and had to make a quick response.

Firstly (and I feel like I've posted this quote like 1,000 times but people don't seem to be grasping it:


The reality is that lack of new cards is the surest way to kill a TCG, it's a pretty well know issue and a newbie mistake. Not a mistake I am willing to make, the core HEX community is our most valuable asset and they have been playing with the same cards for 7 months... And it will be even longer by the time set 2 is ready. I simply cannot allow this big a gap in new content. PVE is on the way and is being worked on by engineers everyday, the team that makes set 2 happen is not on PVE so it's not linked.

I appreciate the comments and I am sorry if this rubbed some of the community the wrong way, as I have said before you would be surprised how complicated even the easy looking decisions actually are...

-cory

So Set 2's announcement and release have nothing to do with PvE.

Also HexEnt should be praised for recognising the importance of keeping the card pool fresh. Analogies with other strategy games like chess don't make sense because a large part of what makes a TCG/CCG work is a rotating, fresh card pool to liven up the meta game and keep things fun.

To your point about drafts not working. From anecdotal evidence it would seem drafts complete fine without errors around 90-95% of the time. I've had 11 of my 12 drafts finish fine with no problems.

Also, the game is in closed beta, IE not finished, so yeah... keep waiting. Most games wouldn't have people playing the game by this point, they'd still be working behind closed doors. HexEnt wanted the community to play the game as it was being made which I think was a cool thing to do but obviously for some, seeing the sausage being made is putting them off their food.

Vorpal
06-15-2014, 04:11 PM
I'm unhappy at how long it is taking, however, I do not think refusing to release new PvP sets is going to help them get PvE out.

sukebe
06-15-2014, 04:40 PM
Long Post.

The reason these threads keep popping up is twofold:

1: People do not understand how tcgs work. that is fine, not everyone can expected to know about how both of Hex's components work (the mmo pve half and the TCG pvp half). TCG (as has been stated so very often) need sets every 3-4 months to keep the mata game in flux. without this meta game shift the game environment gets stale.
2: people are rude and self absorbed and feel that opinion not only trumps all other similar opinions but is also good enough to ignore the CoC and post a repeat thread when other threads on the same topic are still on the front page.


There's been a number of reveals that make me think some of the features have been re-assessed relatively recently, most significantly resource screw/flood, which we are now told is addressed multiple ways in set 2.


Look, the core issue is this :

We have to release set 2 because 'CCGs die without cards'. The problem is we are even in a position to be considering the game dieing before we are in open beta or PvE has been released. There's a series of learning points here for the company and for the game.


Small changes to design features present risk to software projects which is way out of wack to their seeming complexity.


Hands up if you believed AH would go out this week when it was announced ?

They had already hinted that set 2 was going to have more resource interaction long before the latest wave of re-posts. Remember, set 2 was finished design wise a good while ago. None of the recent whining would be able to have had any effect on the set. Give credit where credit is due, not to the people that whine about the same thing over and over again in separate threads.

And since I was ignored again, here is what I posted earlier with some extra bits added on:

Normally I would post quotes of all the things I liked or didnt like that others have said. However, that would pretty much repeat everything that Xenavire has said and would likely be ignored (like most of my posts). So instead I will just do it this way:

1: This is closed beta for the pvp half of the game. They made this clear multiple times so if you still don't know it, I'm not sure what else we can say that will make you realize that.
2: There are many, many, many, many (etc) posts in the other threads on this EXACT same topic that explain why the second set is needed and how it does not affect PVEs release in any way so if you actually cared about this you would know the answer by now.
3a: OP has a right to be upset and make this know to others.
3b: when something you want to post is already on the first page multiple times, common sense and the slightest shred of manners should tell you that your post should be placed in one of those 2 threads, not in yet another thread on the same topic.
3c: Since the OP placed in yet another thread on the SAME TOPIC, we cannot really be blamed for our annoyance at this rude, self absorbed behavior.
4: if people are allowed to post new threads on the SAME TOPIC over and over again spew closed minded, short sighted hate (or more kindly, whine, none stop) people like Xenavire and myself (and all the others that do so) are completely within our right to post our views (many of which are more knowledgeable and first hand since many have actually gone to CZE and interacted with the team personally*) an equal number of times in these horribly repetitive posts.
5: Drafts have been completing normally for me at least 95% of the time. Those do not complete due to a bug (or that are lost because of a bug) are easily reported. I have recieved compensation in the form of a draft ticket 100% of the time when I send in a support ticket. You cannot loose money to bugs (though because of the compensation adding to, not replacing the original draft you can actually gain money from bugs)

*I am not one of those people unfortunately. Never been to CZE but I do hope to go sometime.

EntropyBall
06-15-2014, 06:15 PM
Forget the PVP features, there's still even basic core game functions that are still not working or are super sloppy. I haven't played much in the last few weeks but many cards were buggy to the point they cost me games, sideboarding was not working correctly, cards had the wrong text or rules coded in, the timer was a complete joke, still no option to pass priority for a turn, no proper stackable sort by shard cost in deck builder, can't see cards missing in collection, you have to click like 5 times to pick a card during draft, can't even check your collection or return to home screen during a tournament, card text is not optimized for viewing at all both in game and in collection screen, can't see any cards not in your collection, you win chests that you can't open, no best of 3 in proving grounds, AI is a total joke, I can't even change my freaking login password...

I don't know of any cards that are buggy to the point where they could cost you a game. I think right now there is something with Shadowgrove Witch? But all the cards are doing what they are supposed to within the client. Sideboarding works exactly as intended in draft at least (there is no sideboard anywhere else). Headless Execution was missing his "cannot block" text for a while, but that has been fixed and I don't even know of a card that had the wrong text or rules coded in "a few weeks" ago. If you drag a card to your "pick box" in draft, there is a slight delay, but you will draft it. Never had that fail. All your other complaints are still accurate though.

Someone in this thread said they aren't even drafting because the game is buggy, and anyone who does that is missing out. My drafts complete with 0 issues >90% of the time, and any draft that does have an issue has been compensated by support in less than 24 hrs.



If you had actually read the other thread you would have seen that they already stated that the PvP has not slowed down the PvE. That was posted long before this thread. And it is another reason why you shouldn't be making duplicate threads.

The "different people work on PVP and PVE" and "PVE requires PVP to be in place first" lines get thrown out every time anyone questions the lack of PVE content/info. If we take those statements as true (I do) its still no excuse at all for how little PVE information has been given. Didn't they hire a guy to specifically do MMO systems (Kevin Jordan?) What has he been up to? People don't even know what skill trees will be like. There is a TON of PVE stuff that was not dependent on the PVP systems being in place, and we still know very little about PVE that we didn't know during the KS campaign. If all they have to show in PVE is a few panoramas, then they aren't making much progress on it. The run up to the PVP alpha had lots of cards being spoiled, lots of PVP info being released. PVE is still this giant mystery, and people who backed for PVE are tired of being in the dark, which looks very similar to being neglected. There are supposedly 1000 pieces of equipment. How about spoiling a few of them every week? How about an expanded explanation of ANY of the PVE systems, or Double Backs?

Part of the frustration of the Set 2 announcement at E3 is that people want big (any) news about PVE, so yet another "big" announcement about PVP is generating angry forum posts.

Aradon
06-15-2014, 07:17 PM
In response to the second half of your post, Entropy, Cory wants to keep PvE mostly secret so that there's something to discover when it's released. Rather than spoiling the whole set of cards like in PvP (which is desirable for competitive reasons), they want most of the equipment and cards to remain unknown entities. It's frustrating not to get those spoilers, especially when the wait's so long, but at least we can guess that we've heard nothing about them intentionally rather than for lack of content to actually reveal.

mach
06-15-2014, 07:33 PM
In response to the second half of your post, Entropy, Cory wants to keep PvE mostly secret so that there's something to discover when it's released. Rather than spoiling the whole set of cards like in PvP (which is desirable for competitive reasons), they want most of the equipment and cards to remain unknown entities. It's frustrating not to get those spoilers, especially when the wait's so long, but at least we can guess that we've heard nothing about them intentionally rather than for lack of content to actually reveal.

That's nothing more than an excuse. If you're worried about spoiling too much, just limit previews to things a player could see in the first hour or two of play. Even just the starter content should be enough for over a year of weekly previews.

Werlix
06-15-2014, 07:36 PM
Didn't they hire a guy to specifically do MMO systems (Kevin Jordan?) What has he been up to? People don't even know what skill trees will be like. There is a TON of PVE stuff that was not dependent on the PVP systems being in place, and we still know very little about PVE that we didn't know during the KS campaign. If all they have to show in PVE is a few panoramas, then they aren't making much progress on it. The run up to the PVP alpha had lots of cards being spoiled, lots of PVP info being released. PVE is still this giant mystery, and people who backed for PVE are tired of being in the dark, which looks very similar to being neglected. There are supposedly 1000 pieces of equipment. How about spoiling a few of them every week? How about an expanded explanation of ANY of the PVE systems, or Double Backs?

Part of the frustration of the Set 2 announcement at E3 is that people want big (any) news about PVE, so yet another "big" announcement about PVP is generating angry forum posts.

Fair enough. Though I think many people are confusing Set 2 as a "replacement" for PvE, you have valid point that HexEnt could be doing a much better job at keeping the community up-to-date with where the team is at with their PvE development.

From the little we've heard, PvE is actually quite far along, with developers at HexEnt able to actually play through dungeons. And we even heard some pretty advanced stuff about PvE around 8-10 months ago. I bet there must be a ton of interesting info they could be teasing out to us every week.

chili
06-15-2014, 08:25 PM
Fair enough. Though I think many people are confusing Set 2 as a "replacement" for PvE, you have valid point that HexEnt could be doing a much better job at keeping the community up-to-date with where the team is at with their PvE development.

From the little we've heard, PvE is actually quite far along, with developers at HexEnt able to actually play through dungeons. And we even heard some pretty advanced stuff about PvE around 8-10 months ago. I bet there must be a ton of interesting info they could be teasing out to us every week.

Werlix why did you drop from our draft? I was going to crush you...

Development on this game advances, and I feel that Cory really wants this to work, but in the spirit of the original message, or at least the title, this thing is way too overdue, it was supposed to come out in December, and people just need some bones tossed their way so they don't eat each other, quite honestly I do feel like the kickstarter backers deserve something (a free set 2 draft or something like that will suffice likely) for being essentially mislead as to the original project advancement and extension. Just spoil half a dungeon or do the stream and people will calm down a little.

Or not... everyone keep complaining as I said before the forums are pretty entertaining, and Xenavire's tears are so salty...

P.S. Auction House delayed too, I peg Set 2 actual release at October after 2 delays.

Werlix
06-15-2014, 08:46 PM
Werlix why did you drop from our draft? I was going to crush you...

I don't think it was me in your draft. I haven't had time to draft for the last few days. The last draft I did was tuesday night (monday night US time) last week... and I won that draft too, so can't have been that one you're referring to :)

Not confusing me with Wurtil are you? I've had that before :)

Xenavire
06-15-2014, 08:51 PM
Werlix why did you drop from our draft? I was going to crush you...

Development on this game advances, and I feel that Cory really wants this to work, but in the spirit of the original message, or at least the title, this thing is way too overdue, it was supposed to come out in December, and people just need some bones tossed their way so they don't eat each other, quite honestly I do feel like the kickstarter backers deserve something (a free set 2 draft or something like that will suffice likely) for being essentially mislead as to the original project advancement and extension. Just spoil half a dungeon or do the stream and people will calm down a little.

Or not... everyone keep complaining as I said before the forums are pretty entertaining, and Xenavire's tears are so salty...

P.S. Auction House delayed too, I peg Set 2 actual release at October after 2 delays.

Try harder, not crying yet.

EntropyBall
06-15-2014, 09:00 PM
In response to the second half of your post, Entropy, Cory wants to keep PvE mostly secret so that there's something to discover when it's released. Rather than spoiling the whole set of cards like in PvP (which is desirable for competitive reasons), they want most of the equipment and cards to remain unknown entities. It's frustrating not to get those spoilers, especially when the wait's so long, but at least we can guess that we've heard nothing about them intentionally rather than for lack of content to actually reveal.

Yeah, I have heard this, but I agree with Mach that its just an excuse. You don't have to reveal everything, but spoiling some (for example) equipment here and there would not ruin the surprise or experience of the dungeons. And that still doesn't address the fact they haven't even explained the PVE systems. That's not a spoiler, that's more like how the game is going to work. I know people will disagree, but I think the lack of PVE info is related more to how far behind it is than a desire to keep it all a secret. Yes, this directly contradicts what they have said, but why else would they reveal so little about PVE?

Edit: To be clear though, I am not accusing them of lying. I think they both want to have surprises and are way behind on PVE, so the lack of info serves both purposes.

regomar
06-15-2014, 09:08 PM
I agree with the OP 100%. You lose the ability to fall back on excuses like 'It's just a beta' when you start charging for your service. It's even worse when the game is still full of bugs and you add more pay content on top of the heap while STILL using the beta excuse.

bojanglesz
06-15-2014, 09:14 PM
I've been living off of Xenavire's tears for days now.

sukebe
06-15-2014, 09:23 PM
Yeah, I have heard this, but I agree with Mach that its just an excuse. You don't have to reveal everything, but spoiling some (for example) equipment here and there would not ruin the surprise or experience of the dungeons. And that still doesn't address the fact they haven't even explained the PVE systems. That's not a spoiler, that's more like how the game is going to work. I know people will disagree, but I think the lack of PVE info is related more to how far behind it is than a desire to keep it all a secret. Yes, this directly contradicts what they have said, but why else would they reveal so little about PVE?

Personally, I think it is because they do not want to show us something (like classes for instance) and then have it end up changing later down the line. This community (and nearly every other online game community) tends to get upset about things like this.

I would still like updates on PVE though. I agree that they should give us some early game spoilers and maybe a class or two. I am fine with the fact they may not end up the same later on, these things happen in online games.

Personally I think they are a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Like all of us, I hope they start doing what I personally want and giving some early game spoilers and stop with the PVE silence. I don't need weekly updates, but once every 4 to 6 weeks would be nice.

Fateanomaly
06-15-2014, 11:24 PM
I think a daily pve card preview will be nice. They just need about 5mins to post it. No commentaries needed. Just put the disclaimer that cards are subjected to change.

Clawdius
06-15-2014, 11:44 PM
I wouldn't care what it was, I'd just like some new information to kick around. Give me some story fluff, an explanation of exactly what we're looking at in those location videos, a Coyotle that looks like Doge... I just feel like during the Kickstarter information was flying fast and furious and while it built up a backlog for me at the time somehow in the ensuing year I've managed to read it all and would be interested in seeing more.

I really am not concerned, personally, about how long it is taking any more. I know that a ton of people are, and I respect that, but having written it off as "likely to be done before 2042" awhile back that's not what I'm confused by. What I'm curious about has a lot more to do with the world of Entrath, and knowing some more about it would suit me just fine.

That's why the whole iron curtain of top secrecy is a bit weird to me, I don't particularly care WHAT exactly they tell us but I get a lot of different updates from a lot of different Kickstarter projects and to me it seems like Hex's updates have been a lot of status reports lately. Sure, every update needs that stuff but it's really nice to hear about the project you've backed with things like this.

Whether it's Lars Simkins explaining the back end of issues that caused delays for Frontiers or the interesting gameplay videos Tom Johnson posts with his updates on the progress of Enemy, I feel like I've gotten bones with more meat on them from much smaller companies than Hex Entertainment. Don't get me wrong, I'll crack open bones for the marrow or toss em in with some beans to extract the flavor if I have to, I just feel like the latest updates have been rather dry for awhile now. I don't think it's my imagination, and I respect that everyone has their hands full actually implementing things in the game, but I still feel that the last several updates were a bit on the dry side.

But who knows what Tuesday will bring, a chicken in every pot and a starter deck for every Slacker Backer? We shall see.

AstaSyneri
06-16-2014, 01:02 AM
Funny that chess has been played on the same board, with the same pieces and rules for centuries and it is still going strong but nowadays people get bored after a few months of playing with hundreds of cards, thousands of combos.

I like this argument ;-). Set 2 imho is not necessary at this point, once the AH is out we'll have literally millions of combinations in our games, making each game fresh (it's probably more than that, too lazy to do the math).


i don't post often but enjoy reading the random post each day, for me it a disappointment necessary delays or not. it feel like lot this ground work is taken much longer then it should, it could simply be a mater of perception since i been following hex from KS countdown till now. however i enjoy how another game been handle it much more an think hex should copy a similar format or follow a similar pattern.

stonehearth

http://radiant-entertainment.com/
every Tuesdays they talk about their progress an what their doing, what going on next.

here is a road map detailing what they got done, their progress on what next an what been work on very detail an nice.

http://radiant-entertainment.com/roadmap/


The idea of a roadmap is excellent. Anything to visualize the progress on PvE is likely to shut us up (in a good way ;-)).

Guys - I am about as frustrated as any of the vaunted "high tier PvE backers". In traditional TCGs summer is the high season for the companies - shows such as Origins, GenCon, DragonCon (used to) tie up a lot of resources and are highly stressful.

For CZE and Cory it must be even more so - the standards in the video game industry are much higher. For that the whole team really deserves a few breaks.

That being said I really wish for more regular PvE info - I'd rather see a short video of a broken dungeon run (or even on paper), then not have any information. What we really want is that they back up the claim of "we're working on it" with some proof, however advanced.

For all of those who really are pining for PvE I can only recommend you check in in the First Dungeon thread and ask people how they like our little PvEbP initiative that is currently in Closed Beta (hmm, where did we get the idea for that? ;-)). Get a team together and wait for the event to go into Open Beta. It might be something that helps you pass the time!

Xenavire
06-16-2014, 05:05 AM
I've been living off of Xenavire's tears for days now.

Quick, get this man a pizza and a powerade, before he drops dead!

chili
06-16-2014, 08:09 AM
I don't think it was me in your draft. I haven't had time to draft for the last few days. The last draft I did was tuesday night (monday night US time) last week... and I won that draft too, so can't have been that one you're referring to :)

Not confusing me with Wurtil are you? I've had that before :)

Aw right, it was wurtil, you are correct sir. I was bummed that one cause I got a straight up bye that round, and found that weird, still faced ossuary on the finals so that was fun.

Xenavire you need to learn not to be so serious in the internet.

Svenn
06-16-2014, 08:57 AM
I wouldn't care what it was, I'd just like some new information to kick around. Give me some story fluff, an explanation of exactly what we're looking at in those location videos, a Coyotle that looks like Doge... I just feel like during the Kickstarter information was flying fast and furious and while it built up a backlog for me at the time somehow in the ensuing year I've managed to read it all and would be interested in seeing more.
Follow them on facebook. Every week they are posting fluff.

toaster4k
06-16-2014, 09:45 AM
I agree with the OP 100%. You lose the ability to fall back on excuses like 'It's just a beta' when you start charging for your service. It's even worse when the game is still full of bugs and you add more pay content on top of the heap while STILL using the beta excuse.

I too want PvE but i enjoy drafting a lot so im not gonna complain about a set 2 since it dont delay PvE anyway.

And yes drafts are often buggy, but i dont mind because their support are quick to give ticket when u fill a bug report.

I think they where just overly ambitious with the content they want to give and thr timeframe they hoped to respect.

Xenavire
06-16-2014, 10:43 AM
Aw right, it was wurtil, you are correct sir. I was bummed that one cause I got a straight up bye that round, and found that weird, still faced ossuary on the finals so that was fun.

Xenavire you need to learn not to be so serious in the internet.

Please, I have been laughing my butt off at all the jabs at me recently. Maybe you should learn how to read internet sarcasm? (Seriously, thats actually a hard talent to learn. Takes work.)

mudkip
06-16-2014, 11:17 AM
I think a daily pve card preview will be nice. They just need about 5mins to post it. No commentaries needed. Just put the disclaimer that cards are subjected to change.

Daily would be too much, weekly would be nicer IMO.

chili
06-16-2014, 11:32 AM
Please, I have been laughing my butt off at all the jabs at me recently. Maybe you should learn how to read internet sarcasm? (Seriously, thats actually a hard talent to learn. Takes work.)

it's impossible to read, that's why /s or /sarcasm is used, I just pictured you all emo holding a Cory doll and crying so I felt a little bad.

Xenavire
06-16-2014, 11:36 AM
it's impossible to read, that's why /s or /sarcasm is used, I just pictured you all emo holding a Cory doll and crying so I felt a little bad.

Holy shit, this is hilarious. I almost want to commission this. I mean it is like the perfect image to defuse all the frustrations in any thread (as people wet themselves laughing.) At this point, I have to ask.... How could you feel any sadness or pity? I would be laughing my ass off with that mental image.

And sarcasm is not always obvious. Sometimes people don't want it to be obvious though (because it kinda defeats the purpose of being sarcastic.) I guess this does make things a little awkward on the internet.

hexnaes
06-16-2014, 12:25 PM
it's impossible to read, that's why /s or /sarcasm is used, I just pictured you all emo holding a Cory doll and crying so I felt a little bad.

Whenever I read a post from Xenavire, I imagine this:

2012

:)

Bells
06-16-2014, 01:00 PM
You guys are just butthurt of Xen's Swagger

bojanglesz
06-16-2014, 01:28 PM
Random thought.

Cory said we'd hear of a release date for the Hex novel in May. That never happened did it?

larryhl
06-16-2014, 01:44 PM
Random thought.

Cory said we'd hear of a release date for the Hex novel in May. That never happened did it?

There are lots of things promised in Kickstarters that are pushed back to the point of oblivion. The Hex novel should be the last thing on Cory's mind at the moment.

mudkip
06-16-2014, 01:57 PM
Whenever I read a post from Xenavire, I imagine this:

2012

:)

This is like the perfect size for an avatar. 100 plat to the mod that does this for Xen ;)


There are lots of things promised in Kickstarters that are pushed back to the point of oblivion. The Hex novel should be the last thing on Cory's mind at the moment.

It's being done in parallel by an experienced author. I'm sure ETAs on the novel would be pretty accurate.

chili
06-16-2014, 02:02 PM
This is like the perfect size for an avatar. 100 plat to the mod that does this for Xen ;)



It's being done in parallel by an experienced author. I'm sure ETAs on the novel would be pretty accurate.

Yeah I don't see how video game development would impact a writer's job. That being said I think Cory now wishes he hadn't added that tier and could use that money for something useful.

Marsden
06-16-2014, 02:14 PM
It's being done in parallel by an experienced author. I'm sure ETAs on the novel would be pretty accurate.

A lot of authors are also terrible at deadlines.

larryhl
06-16-2014, 02:42 PM
A lot of authors are also terrible at deadlines.

Plus CZE has to actually meet with the author to give her the information necessary to write anything.

DirtFarmer
06-16-2014, 02:50 PM
I will not be buying any of Set 2 nor spending any more of my money on this game until I see advancement to making this game complete overall and not just going for more of what I see as a money grab.

I think this is all we can do. Obviously HEX is going to do whatever they want. All we can do as supporters is not buy the new product to let them know we care more about fixing the game then giving us new content.

Aradon
06-16-2014, 03:10 PM
CZE had two choices: release content regularly on a schedule like the one they originally outlined, or wait and become stagnant. They chose to stick to their schedule. Set 2 development began a loooong time ago, well before the game became significantly delayed. At this point, they could either choose to release their content, or hold on to it. There's no reason to just sit on the cards and content, so they're releasing it. It has nothing to do with cash grabbing, just following the natural consequences of their decision long ago to stick to a schedule. They've already said that set development is not impeding their other development, so I guess we can either accept that or call them liars. If someone opts for the latter, then I guess they've made their minds up already and nothing short of getting everything they want will 'fix' things for them.

Personally, I'd be irritated if they had Set 2 developed but decided to hold it back 'just because.' CZE understands that tcgs need cards, and new cards, to survive, so I'm trusting CZE.

Xenavire
06-16-2014, 03:15 PM
You guys are just butthurt of Xen's Swagger

Heh... Saying I have swagger will make me want to switch sides, please don't do that. :p

And you know what? I want to know more about the book myself, it had completely slipped my mind. Last we heard anything about it was when the author was on the forums a while back.

Werlix
06-16-2014, 03:23 PM
CZE had two choices: release content regularly on a schedule like the one they originally outlined, or wait and become stagnant. They chose to stick to their schedule. Set 2 development began a loooong time ago, well before the game became significantly delayed. At this point, they could either choose to release their content, or hold on to it. There's no reason to just sit on the cards and content, so they're releasing it. It has nothing to do with cash grabbing, just following the natural consequences of their decision long ago to stick to a schedule. They've already said that set development is not impeding their other development, so I guess we can either accept that or call them liars. If someone opts for the latter, then I guess they've made their minds up already and nothing short of getting everything they want will 'fix' things for them.

Personally, I'd be irritated if they had Set 2 developed but decided to hold it back 'just because.' CZE understands that tcgs need cards, and new cards, to survive, so I'm trusting CZE.

Well said :)


All we can do as supporters is not buy the new product

Dafuq? Pretty sure that makes you not a supporter.

And if by supporter you mean Kickstarter pledger, don't lump all of us with you. I for one am happy with new cards to play with while they continue working on the game. I don't see why people are so angry with new stuff.

Clawdius
06-16-2014, 03:36 PM
Follow them on facebook. Every week they are posting fluff.

I don't do social media, but I pay attention to Cory's tumblr/twitter so I'd hope that anything good would be represented in a place other than the eighth circle of hell.

Xenavire
06-16-2014, 03:43 PM
I don't do social media, but I pay attention to Cory's tumblr/twitter so I'd hope that anything good would be represented in a place other than the eighth circle of hell.

I follow pretty much everything, and the only 'daily' updates are via facebook. Twitter was pretty active at the start of beta, but has died down. As someone who not particularly interested in social media, I see where you are coming from, but having a dummy account purely for the sake of following HexTCG won't kill you. :p (Obviously, your choice whether or not to make the account.)

sukebe
06-16-2014, 04:00 PM
Well said :)



Dafuq? Pretty sure that makes you not a supporter.

And if by supporter you mean Kickstarter pledger, don't lump all of us with you. I for one am happy with new cards to play with while they continue working on the game. I don't see why people are so angry with new stuff.

Lol, yep, definitely not a supporter. I am with you, I am a kickstarter backer and I am very much looking forward to the release of set 2. I probably won't spend more than what I currently spend when it is released but I will certainly continue the same level of purchases ($15-$20 a month if anyone cares).

I also look forward to PVE of course but I realize it is more complicated to code than PVP

EntropyBall
06-16-2014, 04:06 PM
So I just found this interview:
http://www.thresholdpodcast.com/an-interview-with-kevin-jordan-lead-systems-designer/
which I'm sure many of you have read. But this is also an example of something they could be promoting to give people some PVE info. There is some stuff in there that its moderately new, and at least shows that there is a guy hard at work on PVE. My first post in this thread literally said "what is Kevin Jordan up to?" and there had been an interview with him only 2 weeks ago. If CZE doesn't want to write an article, just link to this interview on the front page or in a KS update. I read a LOT about Hex and didn't even know this existed because I don't follow every single fan site.

sukebe
06-16-2014, 08:10 PM
Thank you for the link EntropyBall, I had not seen that interview :-)

It was definitely a good read as well.

Ebynfel
06-16-2014, 08:34 PM
A lot of authors are also terrible at deadlines.


Plus CZE has to actually meet with the author to give her the information necessary to write anything.

This Author is Christie Golden, and is known for being a "Speed Writer" She hits deadlines, plain and simple....
Also, she has already been working on it. SHe has been met with, and had a nearly complete rough, I believe, 2 months ago IIRC