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Idus
06-14-2014, 07:06 PM
Now I admit I'm not that great at draft, and maybe it's because I'm rushing my deck building too much.

But, I usually have my deck built within 5 minutes, 10 at the most if I get heaps of good cards, but still the timer always seems to burn down to 0 or almost 0 before the games start. Do people really take 20 minutes to build their decks, or is something going wrong with the timers?

*EDIT*

Changed the title to the correct 15 minutes to avoid confusion, although the forum header isn't editable it seems

Xenavire
06-14-2014, 07:17 PM
Now I admit I'm not that great at draft, and maybe it's because I'm rushing my deck building too much.

But, I usually have my deck built within 5 minutes, 10 at the most if I get heaps of good cards, but still the timer always seems to burn down to 0 or almost 0 before the games start. Do people really take 20 minutes to build their decks, or is something going wrong with the timers?

Draft timer is only 15 minutes, has been for ages. The timer is lenient because of A) new players, and B) disconnects or other random bugs. Also, not everyone has the same skill, so I doubt it will ever go below 10 minutes, even if this timer is a temporary timer.

I gotta agree that deckbuilding is usually the fastest phase of draft for me, but not for others and that forces me to wait a looong time.

Mahes
06-14-2014, 07:24 PM
I make use of the time. Use the restroom, go get a drink, maybe let the dog out. I anticipate that most will not be ready the initial 7 minutes and so will do stuff to that point and then click save.

Serax
06-14-2014, 07:51 PM
I make use of the time. Use the restroom, go get a drink, maybe let the dog out. I anticipate that most will not be ready the initial 7 minutes and so will do stuff to that point and then click save.

I use the time this way myself. I am building my deck as I draft so when I get to the deck building phase it literally takes me 2-5 mins at most. The only time it takes me a little longer if I am sitting at 41 cards and I am trying to figure out what I want to drop.

Idus
06-14-2014, 08:12 PM
Draft timer is only 15 minutes

It is? Hmm OK, guess I'm just impatient then. I always seem to have at least 10 minutes left, so I guess it's taking me 5 mins max usually.

And I guess people do go do other things, as I was just in a draft and had to wait 3 minutes after the match started for my opponent to choose if he wanted to play first or not.

Mascus
06-15-2014, 02:04 AM
I use the full timer. I'm new to drafting and like to use the time to copy my deck into the tcgbrowser website so I can fiddle with my curve and screw/flood ratios. I also like to use the time to think about what situations will make me side deck in what cards or change gems etc.
Sorry everyone for making you wait! I find it's a good amount of time for a newbie like me.

poizonous
06-15-2014, 02:28 AM
I make use of the time. Use the restroom, go get a drink, maybe let the dog out. I anticipate that most will not be ready the initial 7 minutes and so will do stuff to that point and then click save.

It is people like you that make the long timer a problem. You are in a tournament, this is not your leisure time to do other things since the time is available to you. Sure restroom and a drink is fine, i mean afterall that shouldnt take more than 1 minute. But it is the people that decide to go do other things for 10 minutes that really pisses me off with the timer

Serax
06-15-2014, 02:56 AM
It is people like you that make the long timer a problem. You are in a tournament, this is not your leisure time to do other things since the time is available to you. Sure restroom and a drink is fine, i mean afterall that shouldnt take more than 1 minute. But it is the people that decide to go do other things for 10 minutes that really pisses me off with the timer

I have done exactly what you have quoted and have been back to click save and continue with nine minutes left ticking down then waited patiently at my computer for another 6-7 minutes for the match to start. It is not always the fault of the people that use this break wisely. I am sure there are people that do abuse this and end up causing everyone to wait, but even the individual you quoted seems to be back at their computer in a reasonable time and I am sure they still wait 4-5 minutes once they return.

poizonous
06-15-2014, 03:04 AM
I still stand by the opinion that there is no need for longer than 10 minutes to build your deck I mean you only have 45 cards to choose from. Even newer players dont need THAT long. You are using 22-24 of those cards, most cards that you draft dont even go with what your going to play so that should almost narrow your selection to like 36 at most that can potentially go in your deck.

Serax
06-15-2014, 03:10 AM
I still stand by the opinion that there is no need for longer than 10 minutes to build your deck I mean you only have 45 cards to choose from. Even newer players dont need THAT long. You are using 22-24 of those cards, most cards that you draft dont even go with what your going to play so that should almost narrow your selection to like 36 at most that can potentially go in your deck.

Oh, I agree that 15 minutes is too much time for draft deck building. For sealed I understand you're trying to figure out what all you have and how to make some synergy between things. Draft however, by the time I am done with the draft itself, I know 99% of what is going to be in my deck since I use the bin to weed out the cards I know will not make the cut, so in essence I am building my deck during the draft.

Funny thing though, as I was typing this response I lost connection to Hex during the deck building phase. Even with that hiccup I still managed to build a deck and save it with 7 minutes left on the clock. (Oh and I did use the restroom as well)

fido_one
06-15-2014, 05:36 AM
I make use of the time. Use the restroom, go get a drink, maybe let the dog out. I anticipate that most will not be ready the initial 7 minutes and so will do stuff to that point and then click save.

This. Though I think once they make a tablet version and/or some sort of notification when parts of draft fire, I'm fine with them reducing the time. I count on those 20 minutes in case something happens in the house I need to attend to before I'm out of service for as long as 3 hours.

sukebe
06-15-2014, 04:00 PM
I too almost always have my deck done in 5 mins or less. However, the 15 min timer is needed for newer players. there is a lot of things for new players to think about and it can be fairly overwhelming. Just have something to read while you wait if you have a lot of extra time. It is what I do.

Mr.Funsocks
06-15-2014, 11:02 PM
Yeah, 2-3 minutes is, realistically, enough, almost all the time. If you don't already know what you're putting in there, what was your justification for what cards you picked? But then, I also understand that the simple psychological fact that the more you deliberate over a decision, the more likely you are to make a bad decision. I laugh at people who take the full time on tests in school. Now that I'm a teacher, almost every honors student who takes more time on their tests, there's at least one question where they erased the correct answer to put the wrong answer...

FlyingMeatchip
06-16-2014, 04:07 AM
poizonous - it should take you at least a minute to wash hands after using the bathroom.....ew.

Xtopher
06-16-2014, 09:03 AM
It is people like you that make the long timer a problem. You are in a tournament, this is not your leisure time to do other things since the time is available to you. Sure restroom and a drink is fine, i mean afterall that shouldnt take more than 1 minute. But it is the people that decide to go do other things for 10 minutes that really pisses me off with the timer
The opposite point of view is my clock, my time, use it as I see fit. An effective strategy is if your opponent is playing super fast, slow down the pace of the game. I've seen people get so rattled they make a mistake and lose.

poizonous
06-16-2014, 09:23 AM
The opposite point of view is my clock, my time, use it as I see fit. An effective strategy is if your opponent is playing super fast, slow down the pace of the game. I've seen people get so rattled they make a mistake and lose.

Game clock and Deck Building clock are two different issues. Your statement has nothing to do with deck building phase

Xtopher
06-16-2014, 09:30 AM
Sure it does. My clock, my time, use it as I see fit.

Xenavire
06-16-2014, 10:55 AM
An effective strategy is if your opponent is playing super fast, slow down the pace of the game. I've seen people get so rattled they make a mistake and lose.

I think what he means is that this part is to do with actually playing, and has nothing to do with the topic. You kind of just... Added it, for no reason.

And I find your view to be rather selfish - the time is not there to be abused, it is there as a buffer for new players. If there was a pro version, I would put money on it being as short as 5 minutes. The sad thing is you aren't breaking any rules, but still finding a way to inconvenience 7 other people.

Going to remember to not join any queues with you, because I dislike having my time wasted pointlessly.

Xtopher
06-16-2014, 11:04 AM
I think you're kind of over-reacting. If you stop and think it through, the only way to approach the timer system that makes any sense is to allow people to use the time as they need to. I'm not seeing anyone that's intending to abuse their time. What I am seeing is people that want to force others to conform to their standard.

15 or 20 minute deck building has been the standard in other games for years. CZE didn't just pick this number out of thin air. You could make an argument that since this game is digital and players don't have to go through the hassle of manually putting physical cards in sleeves or laying their cardboard out to organize it, less time is needed. But no one has been that thoughtful thus far. Just kind of a knee jerk my time is more valuable than yours BS attitude happening here.

Xenavire
06-16-2014, 11:17 AM
I think you're kind of over-reacting. If you stop and think it through, the only way to approach the timer system that makes any sense is to allow people to use the time as they need to. I'm not seeing anyone that's intending to abuse their time. What I am seeing is people that want to force others to conform to their standard.

15 or 20 minute deck building has been the standard in other games for years. CZE didn't just pick this number out of thin air. You could make an argument that since this game is digital and players don't have to go through the hassle of manually putting physical cards in sleeves or laying their cardboard out to organize it, less time is needed. But no one has been that thoughtful thus far. Just kind of a knee jerk my time is more valuable than yours BS attitude happening here.

I'd say when it is 7 people being screwed over by one person, it is absolutely 'my time is more valuable that yours' and its completely acceptable for people to think that.

Seriously, for every 5 minutes you waste, thats 35 minutes of time you just wasted for other people. If you don't need to be using that time for anything, you are simply being a selfish jerk (you see, if CZE wanted people to wait 15 minutes, the first round would always take 15 minutes to start, rather than just starting when everyone was finished. They don't want to waste time, and players shouldn't be trying to.)

See, if you were using that time productively, and were consistently done before other players, I could see that as fine. But the minute people have to wait for you just because you can't be bothered pushing a button, you become a massive jerk.

Xtopher
06-16-2014, 11:25 AM
I still don't see where anyone has mentioned staring at the start button pointlessly to make others wait. That aside, you will never know how someone is using their deck building time unless they advertise it. Again, if you want to make the argument that due to the digital environment less time is needed, make that argument. Or you could argue that the competitive queues should have shorter deck building times, because they are intended for more experienced players. Nothing I hate more than someone using the selfish standard of how much time they take and imposing it on everyone else.

Barkam
06-16-2014, 11:29 AM
The deck building timer for draft should be shortened to atleast 7 mniutes because of the digital nature of the game and you building your deck as you draft.

Xenavire
06-16-2014, 11:31 AM
I still don't see where anyone has mentioned staring at the start button pointlessly to make others wait. That aside, you will never know how someone is using their deck building time unless they advertise it. Again, if you want to make the argument that due to the digital environment less time is needed, make that argument. Or you could argue that the competitive queues should have shorter deck building times, because they are intended for more experienced players. Nothing I hate more than someone using the selfish standard of how much time they take and imposing it on everyone else.

That is exactly what you just admitted to! Except that you are intentionally forcing 7 other people to wait.

And yeah, the argument I would like to make is that deckbuilding time should be lowered (at a later date, when we are sure there are no bugs, and when the UI is improved and streamlined.) 10 minutes is more than enough time in draft (even new players should be able to finish within that time, thanks to being able to preview each card during the drafting period.)

It would also negate almost any abuse (because about the longest time anyone would have to wait would be cut in half, from 10 minute to about 5 minutes.)

I just can't believe that anyone would be so selfish. Seriously, after admitting that here, you had better follow up by saying 'I always end up finishing early even if I try to drag it out', or of course people will react badly.

Xtopher
06-16-2014, 11:34 AM
Xen, I don't know if you're seeing things or English isn't your first language, but I never said I intentionally drag out deck building time.

Xenavire
06-16-2014, 11:41 AM
Xen, I don't know if you're seeing things or English isn't your first language, but I never said I intentionally drag out deck building time.

Then you should have made that perfectly, absolutely clear from the start, shouldn't you? Your comment was very open to interpretation, and the quote as a whole heavily implies that you enjoy making people wait because it gives you an advantage.

Maybe you should look up ambiguity in the dictionary? (Calling me out on the English language, you are flat-out crazy.)

malloc31
06-16-2014, 03:11 PM
I think this argument shows that they definitely need to reduce the amount of time on the timer, because when allowed some people will abuse things as much as possible.

Werlix
06-16-2014, 05:01 PM
Yeah must admit I was also a bit confused reading your response, Xen :confused:

Myself, I often use the spare time for Fatherly duties like changing a nappy or putting a child to bed or getting a child a drink etc... Or just getting myself a drink/snack or going to the toilet. I quite like having a little break time before the start of the tournament. If the game gives us this time to use there's nothing wrong with using it however we want.

We can argue that we think the timer should be lower, but we can't tell people that using that time in some way unrelated to playing the tournament is somehow bad or dishonest or abusive (unless there's some rule/guideline published from HexEnt outlining this).

Yoss
06-16-2014, 05:28 PM
I use the full timer, and not for non-Hex stuff.

Idus
06-16-2014, 10:52 PM
I use the full timer, and not for non-Hex stuff.

So Yoss, how would it affect you if it was shortened? Do you feel you would be rushed or disadvantaged in some other way?

meetthefuture
06-16-2014, 11:35 PM
I use the full timer, and not for non-Hex stuff.

And this is the reason why it should stay 15 minutes.
This is the time to do something before draft starts - afterwards there's no reliable time to distract.
I've said it a million times and will keep saying it.

Yoss
06-17-2014, 09:39 AM
So Yoss, how would it affect you if it was shortened? Do you feel you would be rushed or disadvantaged in some other way?

I could make due with less time if I was forced to. My deck building is iterative in nature. I get a basic outline built within two minutes then iterate on it as I think about what cards I saw running around in the pool, what archetypes I'll need to handle, whether to main-board or sideboard various answers to different archetypes, cost curve, shard counts, threshhold counts, and so on. So yeah, I use the whole time to fine tune things, and it pays off (3.1 EV so far).

However, I'm pretty sure I'm one of the most meticulous people around here, so others probably don't work so hard on it.

Ju66ernaut
06-17-2014, 11:53 AM
I'll be honest and admit that most often I finish building my deck with 12 minutes on the clock then proceed to either take a shower or fix dinner with the remaining time. I don't do it to be a dick, when I finish anything else that needs to be done around the house and I know my attention is undivided, I save my deck. If I save my deck immediately, I am now tied to the computer because at any moment the first round could fire off. That 15 minutes is the only 15 minutes of guaranteed leisure during the 3-4 hour draft period. I have absolutely no issue with the deck building timer being reduced to 5-10 minutes (especially in the "competitive" queues) and adhering to them. I just don't want to sit at the computer with my deck saved while Johnny is finishing painting his cabinets. My cabinets need a fresh coat of paint, too.

poizonous
06-17-2014, 03:57 PM
I'll be honest and admit that most often I finish building my deck with 12 minutes on the clock then proceed to either take a shower or fix dinner with the remaining time. I don't do it to be a dick, when I finish anything else that needs to be done around the house and I know my attention is undivided, I save my deck. If I save my deck immediately, I am now tied to the computer because at any moment the first round could fire off. That 15 minutes is the only 15 minutes of guaranteed leisure during the 3-4 hour draft period. I have absolutely no issue with the deck building timer being reduced to 5-10 minutes (especially in the "competitive" queues) and adhering to them. I just don't want to sit at the computer with my deck saved while Johnny is finishing painting his cabinets. My cabinets need a fresh coat of paint, too.

Joining a draft Queue should require your undivided attention at that very moment. If you want to shower or other stuff do that before joining the queue. This is totally an unacceptable use of the deck building timer and a big reason why it needs to be shortened. Sorry if I sound mean but it is the truth

Werlix
06-17-2014, 04:08 PM
Joining a draft Queue should require your undivided attention at that very moment. If you want to shower or other stuff do that before joining the queue. This is totally an unacceptable use of the deck building timer and a big reason why it needs to be shortened. Sorry if I sound mean but it is the truth

Oh I must have missed that rule... can you link it?

poizonous
06-17-2014, 04:13 PM
Werlix as someone who has drafted for over 15 years now It is not a rule, It is a common courtesy. Thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation with a useless Troll response though

nicosharp
06-17-2014, 04:13 PM
Joining a draft Queue should require your undivided attention at that very moment. If you want to shower or other stuff do that before joining the queue. This is totally an unacceptable use of the deck building timer and a big reason why it needs to be shortened. Sorry if I sound mean but it is the truth
This is just wrong. He can use his time however he wants. If he gets a forfeit due to the round starting early, so be it. If the game is trying to be mindful of some people needing more time, it also needs to be mindful of those people that need to step away. (some kind of final ready check.)

The time is there for people like Yoss, that mentioned what he does, and also people new to the game or new to draft. You can't punish some people and reward others. There are too many variables.

I am also an impatient person, and finish my deck quickly, but I've came back after a minute of staring at it to continuously make changes. I think the time is fine where it's at. I wish there were things I could do in-game with the extra time, but I guess we need to wait to see things like that in the very distant future.

poizonous
06-17-2014, 04:16 PM
The game will never get in to competitive E Sport Scenes if viewers are forced to wait 15 minutes because someone in the queue decided to go shower before round 1 and wasted everyones time. Streamers have a hard enough time keeping viewers attention with the current wait. IF Hex wants to be competitive in the E Sports scene the timer needs to go down.

nicosharp
06-17-2014, 04:21 PM
The game will never get in to competitive E Sport Scenes if viewers are forced to wait 15 minutes because someone in the queue decided to go shower before round 1 and wasted everyones time. Streamers have a hard enough time keeping viewers attention with the current wait. IF Hex wants to be competitive in the E Sports scene the timer needs to go down.
You are so full of it. Do you even believe what you are writing?
Deck building is probably the most interesting aspect of draft besides the picks. The games are probably less entertaining from a strategic perspective. In an E-sport scene, much akin to DOTA2 (better comparison than League) a lot of the strategy can be drummed up by the shoutcasters during the draft picks and the deck creation process.

This game is strategic, not a quick game of 'War', like Hearthstone. It's going to attract different gamers, and different Esport viewers. There will be plenty of things to talk about. And I doubt the dudes that go take showers will be in the hot seat too often when it comes to high level esport worthy games.

Werlix
06-17-2014, 04:28 PM
Werlix as someone who has drafted for over 15 years now It is not a rule, It is a common courtesy. Thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation with a useless Troll response though

This is so ridiculous I can't even begin to... Well I'll try...

Player's cannot and should not impose arbitrary rules on other players. Maybe I think it's very impolite to play Baby Yeti and get angry and rage whenever it happens... who's to say my arbitrary rules shouldn't be adhered to but yours should??

The game enforces rules. The players abide by the rules of the game. End of story.

Also as for IRL drafting (grats on 15 years of drafting btw)... If I'm given 20 minutes to build a deck and build it in 10 minutes I might duck out to grab something to eat/drink/go to the toilet, would you think that is also completely "unacceptable"? No of course not, this happens all the time and it's "common courtesy" to allow people to use their allocated time however they'd like.

As for the 15 min timer, I'd be ok with it being 10 mins for competitive queues.

poizonous
06-17-2014, 04:31 PM
Sorry if I feel someone taking a shower and wasting 7 other peoples time is complete horse shit and shouldnt be acceptable. How someone can defend that is beyond me. Do that on your own time before you join a queue. We are in agreement that a 10 minute timer is much more productive though so no sense in arguing.

nicosharp
06-17-2014, 04:33 PM
You need a snickers bro. I could live with 10. Still think some noobs will complain.

Xtopher
06-17-2014, 05:22 PM
Based on past experience, what is a valid use of clock time will be argued for the life of the game. It's either your time to use as you wish or arbitrary standards determined by individual players. Agreed, though, that the time could be slightly less for draft deck building without much impact.

Ju66ernaut
06-17-2014, 05:25 PM
I have not tried to defend the decision to use that time to make some food or take a shower. I'm an advocate for having a 5 minute deck building clock in competitive formats. If the clock were 5 minutes, I would finish my deck, hit save, then wait for 2 minutes for the match to start. That would be awesome.

However, I make the horrible assumption that the player to my right has also decided to paint his cabinets; and that if I click save, I now have to wait 10 minutes for him to return. It's a devious, cynical thing and I would love to act differently. But at the end of the day, I'd rather handle what I want to handle during that last 12 minutes rather than waiting for everyone else to click to go button.

TLDR: I'm all for shorter deck building clocks. But if they are not implemented, I'm not going to discomfort myself in hopes that others will, too.

wolzarg
06-18-2014, 08:16 AM
Lets make it 45 seconds and remove any kind of sorting. Why should i have to wait, get on my level people!



Now imagine how rude that looks and consider that some people need 10 minutes just to consider their curve and number of shards. Should competitive possible have a shorter time while casual have the same or possible even a longer one? Maybe but overall reduction of deck building time is just a bully move against new people who already struggle with in game timer and various other things. If everyone is done in 45 seconds it starts in 45 seconds so don't be one of those guys that doesn't save. If you are done save your deck then go do your things.

RDarkfire
06-18-2014, 09:41 AM
Sorry if I feel someone taking a shower and wasting 7 other peoples time is complete horse shit and shouldnt be acceptable. How someone can defend that is beyond me. Do that on your own time before you join a queue. We are in agreement that a 10 minute timer is much more productive though so no sense in arguing.

It's not hard to see what's going on... poizonous is clearly just in a different demographic than the people he is arguing with here. It's actually a rather interesting cross-section of the players who populate this game (so far). Five years ago, I was probably in poizonous' demographic. Today, I'm somewhere in between his and Nicosharp's/Werlix's, and it's quite clear that he doesn't have a clue what it means to be part of the other demographic.

Also, another point -- the nature of online play is that most of the time (unless in an internet cafe or something) we are sitting in our HOME. We are not in a convention centre sitting around hundreds of people at a Magic tournament, we are at our computer desks, on our beds, potentially with babies screaming or wives/husbands calling. It is a completely different style of play (even if it is still a draft). You cannot enforce the type of logic and rules you are talking about, poizonous, in that type of setting. If we wanted to be at the convention centre drafting, we would be there. But we're not.

-B.

meetthefuture
06-19-2014, 12:33 AM
Do that on your own time before you join a queue.
Those 15 minutes are my own time. If you don't like it - you may just avoid joining queues

Well, sometimes it takes me 10+ minutes to finetune a deck, sometimes I build it in 2 minutes and hit save. But sometimes I use that ability to do something between drafting and playing - and I don't mind if someone else does it aswell because that's completely legit.
Just like in real life drafts (which I've been doing for a bit more than 10 years, so not that much behind you) - the draft process ends, the time when the first round starts is set - and between those you can do whatever you want after you've finished your deckbuilding.

fido_one
06-19-2014, 07:21 AM
EDIT: Meh, I had a long emo message here that was somewhat irrelevant and a bit unwarranted. No more! It's gone.

umikami
06-26-2014, 01:21 AM
I'm totally fine with 15 minutes. I can't imagine a tourney in real life having less than 15 minutes to build a deck. Drafting takes time and then building a deck takes time. This is competitive play. The argument against is that it simply "takes time." But the arguments for are that people have time to build the deck they want, time to perhaps practice draw when that function is enabled. Time to think about a strategy for sideboarding, etc. Even if some finish building early in say 7 minutes, we are only talking about waiting another 8 minutes. This is a card game, not having patience to sit for 8 minutes for a tournament sound strange for those whom are hardcore card gamers. I have to wait between rounds for my game to start. It's just the nature of the game.

Bells
06-26-2014, 05:41 AM
No harm in being lenient, as draft can welcome new and older players alike.

Doesn't hurt us to be a little more patient and wait a few more minutes... it can be of great help to others who need it.