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Al-Rassan
06-15-2014, 09:05 AM
Look, I am pretty new to TCGs so maybe I am missing something here...

But Spirit Dance, spend 5 mana and buff EVERY CARD IN YOUR DECK for -2 shard cost and +2/+2!

Seriously? It just seems insanely OP compared to every other card I have encountered so far.

Please help me understand why that is not OP, because If you can pull that off I will have learned some important lesson in the world of tcgs.

But that made me click on the quit button, and it hurts even more given that I backed this game. Sure I backed it for the PvE mostly, but I was hoping I would be able to enjoy the PvP.

I can"t see how I will enjoy it with cards liek that...

But, again, I am a noob and maybe there's something I am not seeing. Please set me straight.

ossuary
06-15-2014, 09:11 AM
Because it costs 5 resources and gives you zero benefits immediately? It costs your whole turn and card advantage to use it, meanwhile doing nothing for your board state or the cards in your hand. Measured against this, it is very balanced. Strong, but fair.

Jacklau89
06-15-2014, 09:22 AM
First of all, it only affects troops in your deck, Not every card as you mentioned. This means its worthless if you have a lot of actions or constant.

Also, its a rare so it not often seen in draft (it's definitely a bomb if you get it out on turn 5 in draft though). Hence you might wish to discuss this in constructed format.

In construct, yeah its a pretty good card with the right deck. But in construct anything goes really. It can be countermagic easy enough, and cards like Fist of Briggadon wins you game even faster if your opponent does not have answers. A couple more resource you can have wrathwood, when might also crush your opponent faster than drawing a bunch of buffed troops.

So really, its not as powerful as you might have thought. Nevertheless a good one:)

Viziroth
06-15-2014, 10:08 AM
As others have said, it takes up most of your turn if you cast it early enough. It gives you no immediate benefits. You still need to draw the buffed troops, which limits the output of the card, and unless you have some sapphire splashed in this will probably only be one draw per turn, and not every draw will be a troop. If you're about to lose it can't save you.

Wild is quite an aggro focused shard, losing a turn of tempo for this card generally isn't worth it; overrun is more useful in the majority of situations.

Rofew
06-15-2014, 01:36 PM
It can be countermagic easy enough,

Not a valid argument. Any decent green player can ramp up to 5 mana (if they're lucky, 6) by turn 3. If they're taking the play with 2 ramp cards and a spirit dance in hand, the only thing that's stopping them is a turn 2 inquisition.

This is a really, really, really powerful card, and if this game survives the suit and lives a long life, I see this card going for a lot of $$$ in the future. That's to say, if it isn't banned in future formats. Combined with some card draw this thing is gonna hurt.

NoahBuddy
06-15-2014, 02:35 PM
i really like this card even given it's draw backs( as others have mentioned). in alpha i made a wild sapphire deck around this card that was super fun to play. it was most if not all troops and had a lot of card advantage to off set the fact that spirit dance does not benefit you immediately. can't wait for auction/trading so i can get the band back together.

Al-Rassan
06-15-2014, 03:15 PM
Well, ok, if you say it is not OP then fair enough. I don't have enough experience to dispute that. Still, it just seems crazy, I mean most decks will have 12- 18 troops, and that's a lot of troops getting a seriously insane advantage. As to the argument it does not give you any immediate benefit on the turn you cast it, I don't think that makes it remotely less powerful. But perhaps at high level of plays that is a big argument? I wouldn't know. Thanks for the responses.

(ps: I hope they ban it :p)

Vorpal
06-15-2014, 03:17 PM
Did you actually proceed to play against this card and get whalloped, or did you just look at it and think "Wow that's OP!" and then concede the game?

For 5 mana, he'd need to draw and play another 2-3 troops just to come out ahead, IMO. If half his cards are troops, that's 4-6 turns , which is far from amazing for a turn 5 bomb.

Diesbudt
06-15-2014, 05:03 PM
Spirit dance is decent at best. No immediate usage, still requires drawing the troops, and even then +2/+2 is not overkill, when you can have your own tricks up your sleeve with removal, combat tricks, flight, prevention, swiftstrike, etc.

Plus it only affects cards in deck, if you use it too late, there is a good chance a few of your troops are in your graveyard/void and in your hand, and these do not get this effect.

Werlix
06-15-2014, 05:26 PM
Don't think we have seen a single copy of this card in the top 8 of any of the four HTP challenge series tournaments. It's probably fine. I can see this growing in value over time however as we get more ways to get value out of it, or play the card earlier/cheaper.

incitfulmonk21
06-15-2014, 05:48 PM
Most high level play is going to revolve around your card doing something advantageous the turn you cast it and the few that don't need to have pretty powerful abilities to make it into a competitive deck.

You really want to make sure you are trading as few of your cards as you can for more of their cards also known as card advantage.

It has a place in certain decks and may grow in value but over all it costs you a turn and most games are around halfway over when you cast it then you have to get very useful creatures and hope they aren't removed as your board state is weakened by losing the turn.

Now with ramp and it being wild it is at least designed well for a deck that wants to maximize its benefits.

Fateanomaly
06-15-2014, 06:12 PM
It is similar to replicate gambit where you might or might not receive the benefits later in the game. You will need card draws to really take advantage of it. I seldom see people actually use it and even less that actually benefited much from it.

Viziroth
06-15-2014, 06:18 PM
Still, it just seems crazy, I mean most decks will have 12- 18 troops, and that's a lot of troops getting a seriously insane advantage.


Of those 12-18 troops, you've likely already drawn 3 to 6 by the time you play this lowering that number to 6-15 troops left. Then you still need to draw those troops and unless you're playing against a control deck you'll probably only have a few turns left after playing this card, meaning you'll probably only ever draw 3 buffed creatures on average, and you still need to play them and wait for them to be able to attack.



As to the argument it does not give you any immediate benefit on the turn you cast it, I don't think that makes it remotely less powerful. But perhaps at high level of plays that is a big argument? I wouldn't know.

That makes it incredibly less powerful, It means it cannot save you if you're about to lose, or win the game for you that turn. Compared to a card like overrun which with only 3 creatures on the board adds 9 damage? Most decks play it would have over 5, sometimes 10 creatures being 15 to 30 more damage. On the turn you play it. Overrun still isn't considered an amazing wild card. In high level play a single turn can win or lose the game for you. In MTG type 1 if your deck can't win by turn 2 it's often considered terrible.



I don't have enough experience to dispute that.


Exactly, you don't. So you can't make decisions like what's OP and what's UP, and what should be banned. Spirit dance is what's referred to as "kitchen table OP"; meaning that, it's OP when you're playing with a bunch of friends who've just started and only have a small collection of cards. It's a card that has a lot of power, but it doesn't have a lot of tempo behind it's power, so against decks that aren't optimized by having access to a full set it is incredibly powerful because they can't take advantage of the break in tempo or card advantage. These are generally the same cards that are very good in draft decks. However, against a fully constructed deck and an opponent who has some experience under your belt it's easily exploitable and playing a card like this is a risky move.


It is similar to replicate gambit where you might or might not receive the benefits later in the game. You will need card draws to really take advantage of it. I seldom see people actually use it and even less that actually benefited much from it.

At least gambit is a cantrip though.

cferejohn
06-15-2014, 07:34 PM
It's a fun card, and sometimes you'll get to just go off with it. If there's ever a Hex analog to Magic's Commander format it could be fun in there. It is a negative in terms of both card advantage and tempo, and a card needs to be pretty insane in order to come back from that.

Jacklau89
06-15-2014, 08:57 PM
Not a valid argument. Any decent green player can ramp up to 5 mana (if they're lucky, 6) by turn 3. If they're taking the play with 2 ramp cards and a spirit dance in hand, the only thing that's stopping them is a turn 2 inquisition.

This is a really, really, really powerful card, and if this game survives the suit and lives a long life, I see this card going for a lot of $$$ in the future. That's to say, if it isn't banned in future formats. Combined with some card draw this thing is gonna hurt.

Maybe. But with quality starting hand like that I see even fewer reasons to praise spirit dance. A single Jadiim, Fist or simply a T-REX can finish your opponent much faster than what spirit dance could offer.

YourOpponent
06-15-2014, 09:22 PM
For those mentioning how the card is useful for wild ramp...yes it is, but only if you're not using Puck in that deck. Otherwise by using that card you are likely making Puck's effect useless due to not having 5 cost troops in your hand since they would of needed to of been 7 cost or higher.

Also I don't think this card was used even in the side decks of the top 8 at any of the monthly contests, but I do think Dream Dance has been used in a side deck before.

However I could see how it could be useful in a format requiring 100+ cards or something like the MtG Emperor format where it's 3v3 and with each side having an emperor where the emperor can't be defeated until the other two players on that side are defeated....with the emperor having this card in their deck....but even then I really think a regular Inspire deck would be more useful for that format.

Mr.Funsocks
06-15-2014, 10:57 PM
The simple reason that no one's directly mentioned is this:

Most games in constructed are pretty much over by turn 5-6. Most decks have a way to win by then, or a way to be on the path of winning almost irreversibly. Even if you ramp this out on turn 3-4, and you draw 2-3 troops to play with it after, it's still not that great when whatever plan your opponent has is probably coming to fruition around then too. And that's if it all goes according to plan.

Gwaer
06-16-2014, 02:12 AM
That is generally true in MTG, but honestly I have not really found it to be so in hex. Most of my constructed matches in the streamers tournament, and the HTP tournament went well beyond 6. I'd say I averaged more like turn 8.

BlackRoger
06-16-2014, 04:15 AM
The thing to consider with this card is - in what matchups does this card help you win?
Against aggro you want to play something to defend yourself on turn 5, not just let him hit you with his entire board while you buff the troops you haven't even drawn yet...
Against control you just want more troops because it doesn't matter how large they are, just that you draw more of them then his removal.

So the only place I can see this helping you is against large creature decks (i.e, the mirror), which aren't at the top at the moment, so there just isn't much place for this card in the current meta, no matter how good it seems.

Vorpal
06-17-2014, 08:15 AM
This always seemed like way more of a pve card to me, anyway.

Thraeg
06-17-2014, 12:51 PM
I had a deck based around it in alpha. As others have said, it's powerful, but slow and clunky, with a major cost in terms of not affecting the board the turn you play it. The best use isn't in a deck with a bunch of big troops (might as well just ramp to them directly instead), but rather with a bunch of cantrip troops. Once you play it, you need to draw a lot of troops from your deck to make the investment pay off. So you need a lot of card draw, but running traditional card draw spells means less space for troops to get buffed. Cantrip troops are the answer, and stringing together a chain of 0-cost 4/4 flight cantripping Ancestral Spirits is pretty amusing. I can see the deck getting significantly better and more consistent once there are enough cantrip troops to fill most of the slot, but I don't think it'll ever be top-tier, just because a deck based around Spirit Dance that doesn't get to play it (either from not drawing it or getting countered or something) is really suboptimal.

AswanJaguar
06-17-2014, 01:08 PM
If you want this to be a card that you can build a competitive deck around, you need a draw engine to be able to flood the board with low cost beefy creatures. Pair it with a constant that allow you to draw a card when you play a troop with attack of 4 or more and now you're cooking.

knightofeffect
06-17-2014, 02:18 PM
I had a deck based around it in alpha. As others have said, it's powerful, but slow and clunky, with a major cost in terms of not affecting the board the turn you play it. The best use isn't in a deck with a bunch of big troops (might as well just ramp to them directly instead), but rather with a bunch of cantrip troops. Once you play it, you need to draw a lot of troops from your deck to make the investment pay off. So you need a lot of card draw, but running traditional card draw spells means less space for troops to get buffed. Cantrip troops are the answer, and stringing together a chain of 0-cost 4/4 flight cantripping Ancestral Spirits is pretty amusing. I can see the deck getting significantly better and more consistent once there are enough cantrip troops to fill most of the slot, but I don't think it'll ever be top-tier, just because a deck based around Spirit Dance that doesn't get to play it (either from not drawing it or getting countered or something) is really suboptimal.

This is just the concise truth. :)