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Tinfoil
06-19-2014, 12:03 PM
When 2 effects triggers automatically at the beginning of turn is there any way of knowing which happens first?

I guess the question could be even broader, is there any rule for effects that happen simultaneously? Maybe I have known and forgotten.

I am thinking specifically of Twisted fate and transformed Incantation of Fear (twisted fate happens last). There could be other examples.

MatWith1T
06-19-2014, 12:26 PM
Well Twisted Fate isn't a start of turn trigger, it is a draw a card trigger, which would happen after your turn is started, so it is a different scenario than 2 start of turns.

I believe the current order is just a simple chronological order in which they came into play.

Mr.Funsocks
06-19-2014, 12:31 PM
Reverse chronological from played IIRC. The last one played is the first to trigger. Could be wrong, could be the other way.

Quasari
06-19-2014, 01:20 PM
If they still act how they did in alpha, they are simultaneous(and triggers they trigger happen after they do simultaneously).

2 Wretched Broods at 2 life with a Adamanthian Scrivener out, both Wretched Broods trigger at the same time, which kills you before the Scrivener can heal you.

Tinfoil
06-19-2014, 01:34 PM
Well Twisted Fate isn't a start of turn trigger, it is a draw a card trigger, which would happen after your turn is started, so it is a different scenario than 2 start of turns.

I believe the current order is just a simple chronological order in which they came into play.

Right, my bad. I got things confused.


If they still act how they did in alpha, they are simultaneous(and triggers they trigger happen after they do simultaneously).

2 Wretched Broods at 2 life with a Adamanthian Scrivener out, both Wretched Broods trigger at the same time, which kills you before the Scrivener can heal you.

I think someone mentioned that specific example doesnt work like that anymore, but I'm not sure...

ossuary
06-19-2014, 03:37 PM
2 Wretched Broods at 2 life with a Adamanthian Scrivener out, both Wretched Broods trigger at the same time, which kills you before the Scrivener can heal you.

Incorrect. As long as you are above zero life when the triggers finish resolving, you are still alive. It has been this way for quite some time now. If you are at zero or less BETWEEN two separate sets of triggers, you will die (like if your opponent hits you with a swiftstrike troop and one of your non-swiftstrike blockers has lifedrain), but if things trigger all at the same time, they finish resolving before the engine does a state-based check.

Yoss
06-19-2014, 03:42 PM
In the brood/scriv case, do they actually trigger "at the same time" though? Scriv triggers "when CIP", brood triggers "at start of turn", so Scriv should not even try to trigger until the cost of brood is paid and its effect resolves fully (putting hopper into play).

1. Start of turn triggers brood
2. brood resolves, consuming 1 HP and giving a hopper
3. hopper CIP triggers scriv
4. scriv resolves giving 1 HP

If <1 HP was hit between 2 and 3, shouldn't you die?

Quasari
06-19-2014, 04:24 PM
Incorrect. As long as you are above zero life when the triggers finish resolving, you are still alive. It has been this way for quite some time now. If you are at zero or less BETWEEN two separate sets of triggers, you will die (like if your opponent hits you with a swiftstrike troop and one of your non-swiftstrike blockers has lifedrain), but if things trigger all at the same time, they finish resolving before the engine does a state-based check.

The state was checked after the wretched broods triggered, before the scrivener was procced. If they procced like chain did, the scriveners would heal between broods. This is how it worked in alpha when I argued about the chain change and the need for consistency in how effects work for viewers. This may have changed, but I haven't observed anything showing contrary.

As I remember it works this way:

State is checked, if there are triggers continue
All triggers that are procced by the last state check resolve simultaneously.
Goto 1

Xexist
06-19-2014, 04:25 PM
In the brood/scriv case, do they actually trigger "at the same time" though? Scriv triggers "when CIP", brood triggers "at start of turn", so Scriv should not even try to trigger until the cost of brood is paid and its effect resolves fully (putting hopper into play).

1. Start of turn triggers brood
2. brood resolves, consuming 1 HP and giving a hopper
3. hopper CIP triggers scriv
4. scriv resolves giving 1 HP

If <1 HP was hit between 2 and 3, shouldn't you die?

Thats certainly how it would make sense to me

ossuary
06-19-2014, 04:27 PM
If <1 HP was hit between 2 and 3, shouldn't you die?

No, hence why I said they had to "finish resolving." A trigger that creates another trigger finishes processing before a state-based check is done. For example: cast a troop from your hand that has been Shadowgrove Witched to be a 0/0 while you have a Shield Trainer in play. The troop comes into play as a 0/0, triggers the Inspire effect before any state-based checks happen, and ends up a living 0/1. If it worked the way you said, the troop would hit the table dead, and go straight to the graveyard.

So the Wretched Brood triggers, deals one damage to you and creates a Battle Hopper. The Battle Hopper hitting the table causes a chain reaction trigger in the Adamanthian Scrivener, which finishes processing (giving you life) before the game stops to see if a) any troops are dead or b) you are dead. You can go below 1 life as long as you are back above zero by the time all triggers associated with that action resolve.

Quasari
06-19-2014, 04:30 PM
No, hence why I said they had to "finish resolving." A trigger that creates another trigger finishes processing before a state-based check is done. For example: cast a troop from your hand that has been Shadowgrove Witched to be a 0/0 while you have a Shield Trainer in play. The troop comes into play as a 0/0, triggers the Inspire effect before any state-based checks happen, and ends up a living 0/1. If it worked the way you said, the troop would hit the table dead, and go straight to the graveyard.

So the Wretched Brood triggers, deals one damage to you and creates a Battle Hopper. The Battle Hopper hitting the table causes a chain reaction trigger in the Adamanthian Scrivener, which finishes processing (giving you life) before the game stops to see if a) any troops are dead or b) you are dead. You can go below 1 life as long as you are back above zero by the time all triggers associated with that action resolve.

Inspire works as they come into play, not after. Inspire isn't a mechanic to argue this point with. Righteous paladin would be more appropriate, and he dies if he comes in as a 0/0 with a scrivener in play.

Aradon
06-19-2014, 04:33 PM
No, hence why I said they had to "finish resolving." A trigger that creates another trigger finishes processing before a state-based check is done. For example: cast a troop from your hand that has been Shadowgrove Witched to be a 0/0 while you have a Shield Trainer in play. The troop comes into play as a 0/0, triggers the Inspire effect before any state-based checks happen, and ends up a living 0/1. If it worked the way you said, the troop would hit the table dead, and go straight to the graveyard.

Not to disagree with the rest of your statement, but your example of a 0/0 getting buffed my inspire is not correct. Inspire modifies how a creature enters, rather than triggering after it's entered. A 0/0 getting inspired by a Shield Trainer enters as a 0/1, and never exists on the board as a 0/0.

Quasari
06-19-2014, 10:54 PM
BTW just tested a 0/0 Paladin with a Scrivener in play, it died. Don't have enough time to test the wretched brood one as it's not as easy to set up vs the AI.

sukebe
06-20-2014, 01:20 AM
they trigger in chronological order and are resolved one at a time in reverse chronological order (last in, first out). Someone I played just today found this out the hard way when the played The Ancestors Chosen on the first turn followed by a Shrine of Prosperity second turn. The chosen triggers first, followed by the shrine. shrine resolves first (being at the top of the chain) giving its bonus to the top card of your deck. chosen then activates and shuffles 2 troops into your deck, most likely making the previously buffed card loose its place at top of your deck. Not the result they wanted :-)

Quasari
06-20-2014, 02:56 AM
Just tested Wretched+Scrivener, it still kills when your life = number of wretched broods out.

Also tested the Shrine of prosperity, sukebe is right it does seem to do them in LIFO order, though it's only the ones that have triggered since the last state check, it checks again after they all resolve.

ossuary
06-20-2014, 05:00 AM
Just tested Wretched+Scrivener, it still kills when your life = number of wretched broods out.

That's very weird, because I have a deck that heavily features Scriveners and Broods and have used it less than a week ago, and going to zero life with Scrivs in play didn't kill me. I have personally witnessed this working the way I've described after the last patch was posted.

Maybe it has something to do with order of operations then? i.e. if you cast one before the other, it works, but if you do it the other way around, it doesn't?

This apparently requires testing.

Tinfoil
06-20-2014, 12:57 PM
they trigger in chronological order and are resolved one at a time in reverse chronological order (last in, first out). Someone I played just today found this out the hard way when the played The Ancestors Chosen on the first turn followed by a Shrine of Prosperity second turn. The chosen triggers first, followed by the shrine. shrine resolves first (being at the top of the chain) giving its bonus to the top card of your deck. chosen then activates and shuffles 2 troops into your deck, most likely making the previously buffed card loose its place at top of your deck. Not the result they wanted :-)

lol, poor that guy. So, if he had cast Srine first and then Chosen, things would have been fine...(?)

Anyways, good to know how things work. Ossuary, if your testing comes up with a different result, please post.

Quasari
06-20-2014, 03:09 PM
That's very weird, because I have a deck that heavily features Scriveners and Broods and have used it less than a week ago, and going to zero life with Scrivs in play didn't kill me. I have personally witnessed this working the way I've described after the last patch was posted.

Maybe it has something to do with order of operations then? i.e. if you cast one before the other, it works, but if you do it the other way around, it doesn't?

This apparently requires testing.
It's possible, I had a fang out too, that might have caused it, but I had plenty of scriveners and 2 broods too. I was up to late probably.

ossuary
06-20-2014, 03:30 PM
If the Fang triggered first and you were on one life, you would have been dead before the Brood's bunnies ever hit the table. That could be the reason for the discrepancy.

I'll try to get some games going this weekend to test this out both ways (Scrivener first, Brood first). Hopefully I can find someone willing to do some test games, because it's pretty hard to test weird scenarios (especially order of casting stuff) being at one life against the AI. :p

DionyzRex
06-22-2014, 10:53 AM
No, hence why I said they had to "finish resolving." A trigger that creates another trigger finishes processing before a state-based check is done. For example: cast a troop from your hand that has been Shadowgrove Witched to be a 0/0 while you have a Shield Trainer in play. The troop comes into play as a 0/0, triggers the Inspire effect before any state-based checks happen, and ends up a living 0/1. If it worked the way you said, the troop would hit the table dead, and go straight to the graveyard.

So the Wretched Brood triggers, deals one damage to you and creates a Battle Hopper. The Battle Hopper hitting the table causes a chain reaction trigger in the Adamanthian Scrivener, which finishes processing (giving you life) before the game stops to see if a) any troops are dead or b) you are dead. You can go below 1 life as long as you are back above zero by the time all triggers associated with that action resolve.

This is incorrect. State based actions are checked after each individual ability/effect/card resolves.

Your example with a Shield Trainer and a X/0 troop is not the same thing. Inspire happens 'as the troop enters play' which means that the X/0 troop becomes X/1 before it finishes resolving and has more than 0 defense when state based actions are checked.

In the case of Wretched Brood, you should die with the Scrivener triggers on the stack, as the Wretched Brood ability has fully finished resolving, regardless of what else is triggered.

ossuary
06-22-2014, 11:11 AM
In the case of Wretched Brood, you should die with the Scrivener triggers on the stack, as the Wretched Brood ability has fully finished resolving, regardless of what else is triggered.

If this is the case, then it's not working that way in practice, and hasn't been for quite a long time. Brood + Scrivener has balanced out to leave you alive for as long as I can remember, as has Claw of the Mountain God + Blood Aura.

You guys really need to get around to publishing the official rules, so we will have a better chance of recognizing and reporting when things are not functioning the way you guys internally believe they are supposed to be. :)

Edit: a thought. You say Brood should kill you with Scrivener on the stack. But Scrivener doesn't use the stack anymore, it just triggers and resolves. Does that have any impact on how the order of operations is being handled?

sukebe
06-22-2014, 12:38 PM
lol, poor that guy. So, if he had cast Shrine first and then Chosen, things would have been fine...(?)

Anyways, good to know how things work. Ossuary, if your testing comes up with a different result, please post.

Yep, playing shrine and then chosen would give the effect you want since the chosen effect would happen first instead of second.

Gwaer
06-22-2014, 12:44 PM
This is one of those things that is really not okay for me. You need to be able to set the order of your recurring triggers. Even if it's in a special window that you open. I'd prefer to not have to choose their order every single turn, but even that is preferable in many cases to the current default.

DionyzRex
06-22-2014, 01:32 PM
If this is the case, then it's not working that way in practice, and hasn't been for quite a long time. Brood + Scrivener has balanced out to leave you alive for as long as I can remember, as has Claw of the Mountain God + Blood Aura.




I'll double check the Brood/Scriv on my end, but a Claw of the Mountain God with Lifedrain is dealing damage and healing you in the same 'packet' so state based actions are not supposed to be checked there.

sukebe
06-22-2014, 01:53 PM
This is one of those things that is really not okay for me. You need to be able to set the order of your recurring triggers. Even if it's in a special window that you open. I'd prefer to not have to choose their order every single turn, but even that is preferable in many cases to the current default.

yeah, the order can be very important (like in the shrine and chosen example) so being able to order them is very important. Maybe when you have multiple triggers happen at once it can pop up a screen similar to the assign damage screen when multiple troops block. You then drag the triggering cards to use which one triggers first (remembering that the first one to trigger will be the last one to resolve). It would be nice if they had a box to check that would keep this order in all future turns or until the simultaneous triggers change (for example: playing a second shrine or a second chosen).

This seems like a pretty simple and direct way to go about it.

Yoss
06-22-2014, 02:55 PM
Agreed with Gwaer and sukebe.

Gwaer
06-22-2014, 03:03 PM
So after thorough testing Oss and Rex, here is how it works.

If you are at 1, and have wretched brood and adamanthian scrivener out, you die. go to 0 end of game

if you are at 2 and have 2 wretched broods and 1 adamanthian scrivener out you live. go to 1 heal 1, go to 1, heal 1.

ossuary
06-22-2014, 03:27 PM
So after thorough testing Oss and Rex, here is how it works.

If you are at 1, and have wretched brood and adamanthian scrivener out, you die. go to 0 end of game

if you are at 2 and have 2 wretched broods and 1 adamanthian scrivener out you live. go to 1 heal 1, go to 1, heal 1.

Ahhh... ok, that makes sense based on what Rex said. So even though the Broods each appear to trigger at the same time (and both troops drop on the board at the same time, visually), it's actually fully processing 1 Brood / Scrivener, then the 2nd Brood / Scrivener.

Gwaer, did you happen to keep track of whether you had the Brood out first or the Scrivener out first when you died at 1 health? If so, what happens if you reverse the order of casting? Does that affect the processing order at all?

And I agree about giving us control back of start of turn order. It really is necessary. The order in which we cast 2 effects 10 turns ago shouldn't lock us in to a certain order for the rest of the game, we should be able to have some control over the order in which they fire, so we can get predictable results. I've been saying that ever since they told us how it worked and that we can't influence it. All it would take is a simple UI update to let us specify trigger order, whenever we get the UI update that lets us set up better auto-passes and skipping whole turns and whatnot.

Gwaer
06-22-2014, 03:33 PM
I tested playing both first and it made no difference.

sukebe
06-22-2014, 05:13 PM
Ahhh... ok, that makes sense based on what Rex said. So even though the Broods each appear to trigger at the same time (and both troops drop on the board at the same time, visually), it's actually fully processing 1 Brood / Scrivener, then the 2nd Brood / Scrivener.

Gwaer, did you happen to keep track of whether you had the Brood out first or the Scrivener out first when you died at 1 health? If so, what happens if you reverse the order of casting? Does that affect the processing order at all?

And I agree about giving us control back of start of turn order. It really is necessary. The order in which we cast 2 effects 10 turns ago shouldn't lock us in to a certain order for the rest of the game, we should be able to have some control over the order in which they fire, so we can get predictable results. I've been saying that ever since they told us how it worked and that we can't influence it. All it would take is a simple UI update to let us specify trigger order, whenever we get the UI update that lets us set up better auto-passes and skipping whole turns and whatnot.

Remember, all start of turn abilities trigger at the same time but are put on the chain in the order they were played. After they are on the chain they will resolve one at a time starting with the last one put on the chain.

The scrivener doesn't actually trigger at the start of the turn but whenever a troop enters play so it would not matter what order it was played in. Each time a bunny enters the warzone it triggers the scrivener and puts its ability at the top of the chain (so that it will resolve before any other effects on the chain)

Quasari
06-22-2014, 05:18 PM
OK, that makes more sense, I was stuck on how I remember it working. Glad it treats it like the chain.

Tinfoil
06-23-2014, 09:08 AM
This is one of those things that is really not okay for me. You need to be able to set the order of your recurring triggers. Even if it's in a special window that you open. I'd prefer to not have to choose their order every single turn, but even that is preferable in many cases to the current default.

I also support this.