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View Full Version : Remove price floors on the auction house



ryuukan
06-24-2014, 10:20 AM
I know they are probably there to help new players not give away good cards for cheap, but it should be just a suggested prompt. "Are you sure you want to sell this RARE card for that price?" etc

If I want to sell junk uncommons for 1p, its my right to do so. My cards, my collection.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o2qbX4ISf1U/ThJDpxT7AeI/AAAAAAAAAjo/mLXLPv3Bo3k/s1600/crying+bald+eagle.gif

Thraeg
06-24-2014, 10:34 AM
The issue isn't to prevent people selling for too cheap, but to make sure that every transaction is enough for CZE to take a cut and that it's worth the server/database load. If you want to give away your cards, you can wait until trading is implemented.

chili
06-24-2014, 10:37 AM
The issue isn't to prevent people selling for too cheap, but to make sure that every transaction is enough for CZE to take a cut and that it's worth the server/database load. If you want to give away your cards, you can wait until trading is implemented.

Then this issue should dissapear when we are ale to sell cards in stacks

ryuukan
06-24-2014, 10:38 AM
The issue isn't to prevent people selling for too cheap, but to make sure that every transaction is enough for CZE to take a cut and that it's worth the server/database load. If you want to give away your cards, you can wait until trading is implemented.

I've sold commons for 5p (the price floor for them) and CZE gets nothing. Next reason pls

Banquetto
06-24-2014, 02:41 PM
I've sold commons for 5p (the price floor for them) and CZE gets nothing. Next reason pls

5p is the floor for commons? I could have sworn I saw a bunch for 3p bid / 4p buyout??

Yoss
06-24-2014, 06:56 PM
Price floor seems like the worst idea I've heard since the patch came out. What the heck is the design reason for this choice?

Mike411
06-24-2014, 08:37 PM
I support removing price floors.

Zurai
06-24-2014, 11:15 PM
I don't mind reasonable price floors but seriously, no one's going to buy an AA Windborn Acolyte for 100p (the minimum for "epic" cards). Too bad that's the only AA the wheel wants to give me (15 and counting).

Ferur
06-25-2014, 12:08 AM
I support removing price floors. Also please give us an exact time on auction endings.

Anything that increases the usability of the auction house helps by increasing the trade volume, making sure all cards are available at all times for a stable price. (which also helps newer players to know the value of their cards)

Zomnivore
06-25-2014, 12:34 AM
How about when I put something on the AH, and crash...you don't auto put it up for the cheapest option.

I mean thats sorta like blatantly obvious right? Put it up for a bajillion plat/gold or something but not the cheapest amount possible. ugh.

(no item lost this way thankfully but ugh not a cool feeling)

Voormas
06-25-2014, 03:47 AM
Price floors make people list things in gold which is good for PvE, I don't see the problem?

Yubar
06-25-2014, 04:47 AM
Because its not free trade, why would you have to force people. If people want gold then people will list/buy items for gold anyway. Let PvE stand on its own merits, there is no reason to have a floor other than controlling the completed auction fee.

DocX
06-25-2014, 06:49 AM
From an economic standpoint price floors have a few effects. Primarily, they reduce demand in the market with the secondary effect of increasing supply for the item with the floor. Put simply, less cards will be sold and will sit in (potential) sellers' collections. This will only affect cards that would have sold below the floor (30p for Rares) in the first place. It will not affect desirable cards (eg. Soul Marble, Claw of the Mountain God, Kindling Skarn, etc.) as the equilibrium price, the price people are willing to buy and for which sellers have the available supply and are willing to sell, is greater than the price floor.

So, the AH has fewer sales of lesser rated cards and those cards will stockpile into collections. Given this easy conclusion (so easy someone with Econ 1101 and wikipedia is able to figure it out), why would CZE put a floor in place? Here's a few reasons I can think of:

- They want to have fewer sales in the AH, at least initially. The first reason I can think for this is to reduce the overall AH activity to make it easier to monitor for anomalies. If there's a problem, it's a lot easier to deal with it given a lower volume of sales. The larger your data set, the harder to monitor and the harder to adjust if you need to sort something out after the fact.
- They want to have fewer sales in the AH, at least for a little bit. The second reason for having fewer sales is to insure a number of set 1 rares are available for Open Beta and beyond.
- They want to have fewer sales in the AH, at least initially. The last reason for reducing the number of sales is to reduce volatility in the market. In general, risk averse people do not want to enter a volatile market. Getting more people in the market is vital and anything that would prevent that is something to be avoided. Reducing market volume reduces volatility and makes the market more stable. It doesn't allow for crazy profit from market fluctuations, but right now that'd be counter-productive in the long-term for the market as a whole.
- They want to provide incentives to list cards for Gold. The equilibrium price point for cards priced in gold is far higher than the price floor. If you really don't want that AA Windborne Acolyte, you can list it for gold. It may not be your preferred medium of exchange, but it'll let you get some value for your item and you can use that gold for other items on the AH, spinning on chests, etc.
- They want to make sure Rares don't sell for too low a price this early in the game. If I dumped a load of undesirable Rares for 5p each, then found out I could take 10 Rares and craft them into a Legendary worth 200p, I'd be a little irritated at my bad foresight. The Hex folks have a better view of the specific details around future plans. It's possible, even likely, they have one or more reasons around the price floor that don't make sense to us because we don't have the information they have.

I don't have any inside information about any of this, but if any combination of these are the reasons for the price floors, I advocate leaving them in. I'd love to hear a specific justification around the price floors, but I don't see them as a de facto bad thing. The Hex market is just starting out. If the price floors are still here a few months into Open Beta or after release with no explicit reasoning provided by Cory and crew, that'd be the time to revisit the discussion. Right now, let's just live with them and see how things go.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

fido_one
06-25-2014, 07:07 AM
Anyone know the price floor for legendaries? It's more than 30p, tried it on a Comet Strike.

I get the hub-bub about price floors but come on people, it's 30 cents, less than 24 hours after opening the damn thing. It'll be OK and some floor is needed for a transaction to take place (3p, right?)

When trading is implemented it will buck whatever trend that is frustrating people in the AH (if it is truly egregious), so if they ever wanted to set floors high enough that it's an actual issue their own trading systems will circumvent it.

As a result, I rate the price floor discussions up there as one of the more ridiculous debates on the forums (and yes, I know what company that classification keeps) - it's the start of an economy which will balance itself out in supply, demand and means of barter.

Kroan
06-25-2014, 10:26 AM
/signed

Remove them or else

Lawlschool
06-25-2014, 10:55 AM
- They want to provide incentives to list cards for Gold. The equilibrium price point for cards priced in gold is far higher than the price floor. If you really don't want that AA Windborne Acolyte, you can list it for gold. It may not be your preferred medium of exchange, but it'll let you get some value for your item and you can use that gold for other items on the AH, spinning on chests, etc.
- They want to make sure Rares don't sell for too low a price this early in the game. If I dumped a load of undesirable Rares for 5p each, then found out I could take 10 Rares and craft them into a Legendary worth 200p, I'd be a little irritated at my bad foresight. The Hex folks have a better view of the specific details around future plans. It's possible, even likely, they have one or more reasons around the price floor that don't make sense to us because we don't have the information they have.

This is the most reasonable theory anyone's posted yet. I'm not even sure anyone's made a good argument against the floors, aside from "Mah freedoms!!"

Not sure why people are upset that they can't sell crap rares no one wants anyway for pennies.

ryuukan
06-25-2014, 11:04 AM
This is the most reasonable theory anyone's posted yet. I'm not even sure anyone's made a good argument against the floors, aside from "Mah freedoms!!"

Not sure why people are upset that they can't sell crap rares no one wants anyway for pennies.

because pennies are worth more than crap to me

Glae
06-25-2014, 11:09 AM
And because there are a bunch if slacker backers that just got a bunch of plat that might actually want to buy some of those rares or uncommons, assuming there was a reasonable price.

nicosharp
06-25-2014, 11:11 AM
Please keep them. I can foresee a lot of positive externalities by doing so in the long-run.

benefits:
-meta pack value
-meta card value
-rare drafting
-crafting
-player-to-player trade
-PvE-to-PvP trade (gold trading)
-gifting
-third party trade
-potential account hacking hate crimes.

Xenavire
06-25-2014, 11:14 AM
I think that they will actually help regulate the low-end prices somewhat. Anything truly terrible simply wont sell, and will go for gold. Anything bad, but playable, will go for minimum (30). That means anything decent must sell for more than 30, which will bump up every price by a small fraction.

And people were complaining about set 1 having no value... Sheesh. This gives sellers more value, and incentives trading for those who think that the AH prices are not adequate. It also blows open the doors for PvE and secondary currency values.

Lawlschool
06-25-2014, 11:32 AM
because pennies are worth more than crap to me

So you should be quite happy you can't get less than 30 pennies for a rare!


And because there are a bunch if slacker backers that just got a bunch of plat that might actually want to buy some of those rares or uncommons, assuming there was a reasonable price.

30p for a rare you actually want seems like a pretty solid deal to me.

Xenavire
06-25-2014, 11:34 AM
So you should be quite happy you can't get less than 30 pennies for a rare!



30p for a rare you actually want seems like a pretty solid deal to me.

120p for a playset is an absolute bargain really. I mean, thats less than the price of a booster (possibly even a booster sold on the AH.)

Kroan
06-25-2014, 11:57 AM
Guys. Don't be dense please. Just because you can put it up for 30p doesn't mean it will sell for it. It might however sell for 10p. I would love to sell them for 10p. I don't want to have 20 eternal youths in my inventory. The correct amount to have is 4.

Xenavire
06-25-2014, 12:18 PM
Guys. Don't be dense please. Just because you can put it up for 30p doesn't mean it will sell for it. It might however sell for 10p. I would love to sell them for 10p. I don't want to have 20 eternal youths in my inventory. The correct amount to have is 4.

Then sell them for gold? It wouldn't be hard to convert that gold into something useful that you could then turn back into plat. Or you could do organised trades, or simply list them for 30 and see who bites.

You are crying wolf here, really. If it can be proven, over time, to be negative, I am sure it will be lowered or removed.

nicosharp
06-25-2014, 12:31 PM
Then sell them for gold? It wouldn't be hard to convert that gold into something useful that you could then turn back into plat. Or you could do organised trades, or simply list them for 30 and see who bites.

You are crying wolf here, really. If it can be proven, over time, to be negative, I am sure it will be lowered or removed.
Xen, These greedy peeps want to make pennies for their shrewd manipulations so they can get into another draft ASAP.
This is not completely selfish though, as someone could get 4 shrewd manipulations for 4 cents! What a steal.
But now there are 100's of shrewd manipulations on the market for 1 cent, and no one can even sell them now...
Crafted cards are worth at max 5 cents because you can mass buy rares to destroy for mats.
Golds value is diminished because the exchange rate to get rare cards is so low in plat, that it is almost not worth it to use gold to purchase.

It doesn't matter what happens to the games AH. People will find a way to dump cards. I think the major issue here with the price floor is people won't find a fast and easy way to dump cards for plat to continue on their merry way of endlessly drafting/etc.

And that is one of the reasons I really like it.

Xenavire
06-25-2014, 12:34 PM
I think it is good that there will be a distinction between a bad rare and a good uncommon though. Especially if it factors into crafting.

I mean, a price floor would prevent some abuse with crafting. It would give a lot more leeway for the ceiling price on crafted items. I think thats just great.

Might not be ideal for drafters, but it feels good for the game as a whole. (Besides, what drafter wants to pick up and sell a Shrewd Manipulation? Thats crazy talk, they would rather pass it. :P)

ryuukan
06-25-2014, 12:38 PM
So basically the price floors are good because of crafting speculation, ok

Xenavire
06-25-2014, 12:43 PM
So basically the price floors are good because of crafting speculation, ok

Thats one way to look at it in the meantime, yeah. Hopefully we get word about the exact reasoning behind the price floor, but it hardly impacts many people, assuming you can get things to sell for 30 plat. (I mean, if you can still sell the same card at a higher price, why complain?)

Kroan
06-25-2014, 01:14 PM
Then sell them for gold? It wouldn't be hard to convert that gold into something useful that you could then turn back into plat. Or you could do organised trades, or simply list them for 30 and see who bites.

Are you actually reading what you're suggesting. Having multiple steps to get rid of my stupid rares just because of an artificially created barrier with no upside at all?


These greedy peeps want to make pennies for their shrewd manipulations so they can get into another draft ASAP. I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny, but greed (or wanting to start my next draft) is the last thing I'm thinking about.

nicosharp
06-25-2014, 01:17 PM
Are you actually reading what you're suggesting. Having multiple steps to get rid of my stupid rares just because of an artificially created barrier with no upside at all?
You are going to have a bigger problem with another artificial barrier.
The 15 card limit.

The no upside at all is arguable.

fido_one
06-25-2014, 01:29 PM
Are you actually reading what you're suggesting. Having multiple steps to get rid of my stupid rares just because of an artificially created barrier with no upside at all?

I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny, but greed (or wanting to start my next draft) is the last thing I'm thinking about.

MY GOD IT'S 30 FUCKING CENTS PEOPLE. The delta between what your junk rare should sell at and the floor is what, 20 cents, 27 cents in a lollipop and gumdrop world?

We're talking about a gaming ecosystem [TCGs] that can require thousands of dollars to keep up per year. If you don't like the price floor for fuck's sake wait until trading is implemented. Problem solved.

Anyone who is rallying against the idea of a price floor please, for the love of all things holy, take a step back and realize that beyond the terrible injustice that CZE has lobbied on you and yours for instating them, we are talking about a few cents in special cases. Really, out of all the things we get worked up about, this perceived grievance has got to be contending to be one of the top idiotic ones.

Kroan
06-25-2014, 01:43 PM
MY GOD IT'S 30 FUCKING CENTS PEOPLE. The delta between what your junk rare should sell at and the floor is what, 20 cents, 27 cents in a lollipop and gumdrop world?

We're talking about a gaming ecosystem [TCGs] that can require thousands of dollars to keep up per year. If you don't like the price floor for fuck's sake wait until trading is implemented. Problem solved.

Anyone who is rallying against the idea of a price floor please, for the love of all things holy, take a step back and realize that beyond the terrible injustice that CZE has lobbied on you and yours for instating them, we are talking about a few cents in special cases. Really, out of all the things we get worked up about, this perceived grievance has got to be contending to be one of the top idiotic ones.
You seriously don't get it, do you? Certain cards won't sell at the current lowest price. I would like to sell them through the AH for a lower price. Why is this so hard to understand? Why are you getting worked up by this anyway? Does this request hurt you? No? Then please refrain from going around throwing with f-bombs and writing in cap-lock. Thank you.

I sell Magic cards on popular European marketplace as well. As low a E0.05. Not because I'm greedy, but because I rather sell them for a low price to someone who appreciates it rather then throwing them away or leaving them to rot in my inventory.

If that's selfish or greedy, I guess I'm just that then.

nicosharp
06-25-2014, 01:51 PM
You seriously don't get it, do you? Certain cards won't sell at the current lowest price. I would like to sell them through the AH for a lower price. Why is this so hard to understand? Why are you getting worked up by this anyway? Does this request hurt you? No? Then please refrain from going around throwing with f-bombs and writing in cap-lock. Thank you.

I sell Magic cards on popular European marketplace as well. As low a E0.05. Not because I'm greedy, but because I rather sell them for a low price to someone who appreciates it rather then throwing them away or leaving them to rot in my inventory.

If that's selfish or greedy, I guess I'm just that then.


For someone that streams regularly, why not just give those same cards away rather than make E0.05?
I understand you want this to be exactly like magic, because most of it is. Therefore, the marketplace should function the same exact way for baseline trading.
But in reality, its not that "we don't get it" or that "we are too dense", or any other demeaning thing you want to throw out to people that don't agree with you. It's that some people can see this being a good thing for the long-term health of the game and the community it fosters.

Kroan
06-25-2014, 01:55 PM
It's that some people can see this being a good thing for the long-term health of the game and the community it fosters. Please explain to me how it is a good thing for the game and the community that there is an artificial barrier to sell cards at a certain prize through the in game interace.


For someone that streams regularly, why not just give those same cards away rather than make E0.05? Besides that I don't stream anymore, the work involved in doing that would be much more than just throw them on the AH (once we have a good working interface)


I understand you want this to be exactly like magic, because most of it is. Therefore, the marketplace should function the same exact way for baseline trading. Eh, I never said that. MODO is pretty horrible for trading.


demeaning thing you want to throw out to people that don't agree with you Yes, because making fun of people or yelling at them is clearly the way to go.

fido_one
06-25-2014, 02:07 PM
You seriously don't get it, do you? Certain cards won't sell at the current lowest price. I would like to sell them through the AH for a lower price. Why is this so hard to understand? Why are you getting worked up by this anyway? Does this request hurt you? No? Then please refrain from going around throwing with f-bombs and writing in cap-lock. Thank you.

I sell Magic cards on popular European marketplace as well. As low a E0.05. Not because I'm greedy, but because I rather sell them for a low price to someone who appreciates it rather then throwing them away or leaving them to rot in my inventory.

If that's selfish or greedy, I guess I'm just that then.

I'm getting worked up because you're throwing around 'it's not selfish or greedy' a few times on this thread when it is quite definitely a little selfish and a little greedy (it's okay! we all are). You're talking about money not flowing the right way for trades - it is, almost by definition, going to be related to your personal finances (selfish) and the increase of those finances (greedy). Remember we're talking about a game that if this sort of trading matters, we're already relatively rich people compared to the rest of the world.

Oh yeah, let's remember we're griping about a 20 cent price delta on a closed, client approved ecosystem that will be undone by the same company that created it. Which completely screws up all of your arguments. When you sell those MtG junk rares for 5 cents euro is that popular European marketplace owned by Hasbro / WotC?

Let's you and I make an agreement: I'll stop screaming 'WHAT THE FUCK THIS IS RIDICULOUS' when you stop over-exaggerating the situation - my point wasn't totally directed at you but I quoted your post as you seem the most vocal of a mild 'this is an injustice' theme that is building on this one. Which is crazy. Your first post in this thread, which was, if I remember correctly, '/signed, remove or else' I thought surely was a joke until I read your subsequent posts and thought 'oh dear god, he's serious.'

nicosharp
06-25-2014, 02:07 PM
Please explain to me how it is a good thing for the game and the community that there is an artificial barrier to sell cards at a certain prize through the in game interace.

Yes, because making fun of people or yelling at them is clearly the way to go.
How do you yell at people on a forum... anyway...not sure I follow your last quip to justify the pompousness

With all that said, to say this is the last iteration of the auction house for functionality (including the current set price floors) would be foolish. I've already mentioned several "ideas" as to why this would be a positive thing for the game, and for players. The PvP minded card grinders can easily look past that rationale.

Streaming is exhausting. and MODO sucks horribly.

chili
06-25-2014, 02:16 PM
This is the most reasonable theory anyone's posted yet. I'm not even sure anyone's made a good argument against the floors, aside from "Mah freedoms!!"

Not sure why people are upset that they can't sell crap rares no one wants anyway for pennies.

Card prices are so low it actually matters those 30p could be 6 rares instead of one

Kroan
06-25-2014, 02:19 PM
You're talking about money not flowing the right way for trades Please explain, since I'm not following

When you sell those MtG junk rares for 5 cents euro is that popular European marketplace owned by Hasbro / WotC? Does that matter, really?

'/signed, remove or else' I thought surely was a joke until I read your subsequent posts and thought 'oh dear god, he's serious.' Obviously that's a joke. Like, what else would I do? I guess not selling my junk-rare's...

stop over-exaggerating the situation I'm not over-exaggerating (or didn't mean to)... The world is not on fire. It's just a shame when my inventory is clogged with rare's that maybe someone else would want to use. Yes I can sell them for gold, hooray! But for people buying it might much more convenient to just pump in $5 in the game and get a whole slew (like hundred) of rare's to build decks with when starting out.


How do you yell at people on a forum... HOW DO YOU THINK!?

KingGabriel
06-25-2014, 02:25 PM
if you want it to be cheaper, just sell using equiv gold

ryuukan
06-25-2014, 02:37 PM
MY GOD IT'S 30 FUCKING CENTS PEOPLE. The delta between what your junk rare should sell at and the floor is what, 20 cents, 27 cents in a lollipop and gumdrop world?

We're talking about a gaming ecosystem [TCGs] that can require thousands of dollars to keep up per year. If you don't like the price floor for fuck's sake wait until trading is implemented. Problem solved.

Anyone who is rallying against the idea of a price floor please, for the love of all things holy, take a step back and realize that beyond the terrible injustice that CZE has lobbied on you and yours for instating them, we are talking about a few cents in special cases. Really, out of all the things we get worked up about, this perceived grievance has got to be contending to be one of the top idiotic ones.

This is a thread in the beta discussion forum of a game that CZE has stated "we are building together."

Your nasty caustic attitude is only meant for maintaining an isolated elite circle of day 1 Hex players.

fido_one
06-25-2014, 03:26 PM
Please explain, since I'm not following
'You're talking about money not flowing the right way for trades' wasn't the clearest, I could have worded it better. You want money for your junk rares, you feel you won't sell those/get the money because HexEnt is forcing you to put a sale price that is higher. I was trying to sum up your 'HexEnt is interfering with the ability for me to trade effectively' arguments.

Does that matter, really?
Yes it matters. MTG trading is within a free market, if your site which you trade MTG junk rares on was owned by Hasbro or WotC I'm sure they'd put some sort of a spin on your trades that make this price floor look like a cake-walk. Hex at the moment is NOT a free market, HexEnt could release the AH and say 'have fun but don't expect anything else' and take 5 percent from the top forever, but they're allowing trading which will effectively make it a free market. If there are enough people like you out there that figure this is bad business and HexEnt doesn't bend sites will pop up that will sell them for 5 cents USD/Euro a pop. Maybe even the same site you use for MTG.

Part of my frustration is the 'price floors shouldn't exist' argument are taken as if the whole ecosystem is dependent on the AH while it very much isn't - it's just one storefront - let's vote with our dollars/euros and gravitate to the systems which are the most fair.

Obviously that's a joke. Like, what else would I do? I guess not selling my junk-rare's...
I'm not over-exaggerating (or didn't mean to)... The world is not on fire. It's just a shame when my inventory is clogged with rare's that maybe someone else would want to use. Yes I can sell them for gold, hooray! But for people buying it might much more convenient to just pump in $5 in the game and get a whole slew (like hundred) of rare's to build decks with when starting out.

HOW DO YOU THINK!?

Well then I apologize for singling you out if that first post was a joke, I assumed with your subsequent posts that it wasn't a joke and after a shit day/week/month I snapped. If it makes you feel any better, my wife asked me what I was doing a couple of minutes ago in another room and I responded 'getting into an argument on the Internet' and she quipped 'please stop because you're going to be wrong and you're somehow going to come off as a superior asshole on the Internet which is saying a lot because it's the Internet.'

nicosharp
06-25-2014, 03:32 PM
lol fido. Just know that the internets aggro is far less worrisome than the wife aggro. You got mad at the right entity. Also, I agree with you, so while you may have lost the argument to some, at least you have one that commiserates.

fido_one
06-25-2014, 03:36 PM
This is a thread in the beta discussion forum of a game that CZE has stated "we are building together."

Your nasty caustic attitude is only meant for maintaining an isolated elite circle of day 1 Hex players.

Yeah, I was being an asshole in that post, I was frustrated. Look at the history of my posts and you'll find it's not a habit.

Also: what the hell are you on about? Maintaining an isolated elite circle of day 1 Hex players? Where did you get that? At what point was I differentiating between new and older players? If you're going to accuse someone of having a caustic, nasty attitude and state a total batshit crazy reason, then... ... ... ... sorry I was trying to finish that sentence and I couldn't. Just don't do it.

Xenavire
06-25-2014, 03:45 PM
Are you actually reading what you're suggesting. Having multiple steps to get rid of my stupid rares just because of an artificially created barrier with no upside at all?

I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny, but greed (or wanting to start my next draft) is the last thing I'm thinking about.

I'm sorry, but when this thread is demanding a part of the game is removed without first asking for an explanation, I had to put alternatives out there. I never said they were convenient, I was just saying that it wasn't a huge deal.

And without knowing why they chose to have a price floor, you can't know what the upside is from HexEnt's point of view. There could be a million reasons, so instead of being needlessly aggressive, we should ask what those reasons are and discuss any pros/cons we see.

I personally see this as a positive move that will keep crafted items valuable, rares more valuable overall (because the price floor limits the lower prices, it means the relative worth will increase for more valuable cards) and it gives more incentive to actually price things in gold, when it is widely available. And I think those pros outweigh the cons of it being awkward.

Quasari
06-25-2014, 03:49 PM
It seems to me, the price foods are there to force us to use gold as an outlet, possibly to get both an idea of what the exchange rate and to help with their pve generation and sinks.

Lawlschool
06-25-2014, 04:00 PM
Certain cards won't sell at the current lowest price.

Have you tried? If someone wants those 30p rares badly enough, they'll buy it since they can't get them any cheaper right now.

mach
06-25-2014, 04:08 PM
- They want to have fewer sales in the AH, at least initially. The first reason I can think for this is to reduce the overall AH activity to make it easier to monitor for anomalies. If there's a problem, it's a lot easier to deal with it given a lower volume of sales. The larger your data set, the harder to monitor and the harder to adjust if you need to sort something out after the fact.


If this is the reason, they should have announced upfront that it is temporary. Plus, they should have just made a single price floor, not a different one for each rarity. Or just capped the total number of auctions temporarily or something.



- They want to have fewer sales in the AH, at least for a little bit. The second reason for having fewer sales is to insure a number of set 1 rares are available for Open Beta and beyond.


No cards are destroyed when an AH transaction occurs. There is the same number of cards in the market with or without floors.



- They want to have fewer sales in the AH, at least initially. The last reason for reducing the number of sales is to reduce volatility in the market. In general, risk averse people do not want to enter a volatile market. Getting more people in the market is vital and anything that would prevent that is something to be avoided. Reducing market volume reduces volatility and makes the market more stable. It doesn't allow for crazy profit from market fluctuations, but right now that'd be counter-productive in the long-term for the market as a whole.


Market volatility is more of an issue for high-end and commodity items, not low-end ones. If my junk rares drop from 10p to 7p, I'm probably not that upset. If my boosters drop from 120p to 100p or my chase legendaries drop from 1000p to 700p, that's a bigger problem.



- They want to provide incentives to list cards for Gold. The equilibrium price point for cards priced in gold is far higher than the price floor. If you really don't want that AA Windborne Acolyte, you can list it for gold. It may not be your preferred medium of exchange, but it'll let you get some value for your item and you can use that gold for other items on the AH, spinning on chests, etc.


What does this accomplish? There is no PvE yet, so there are no gold-only players who would benefit from this. Encouraging players to list things for gold is something that they should do after PvE arrives, and then only if things not getting listed for gold is actually a problem. And there are better ways to do this, such as lower fees when you list with gold.



- They want to make sure Rares don't sell for too low a price this early in the game. If I dumped a load of undesirable Rares for 5p each, then found out I could take 10 Rares and craft them into a Legendary worth 200p, I'd be a little irritated at my bad foresight. The Hex folks have a better view of the specific details around future plans. It's possible, even likely, they have one or more reasons around the price floor that don't make sense to us because we don't have the information they have.


But what about the person who buys the Legendary worth 200p, then sees it drop in value because it can be crafted from 10 junk rares? If this were the reason, they should have implemented price ceilings as well. Even better, give us a crafting preview and let the market sort out the details.



Eh, I never said that. MODO is pretty horrible for trading.


The sad thing is that the MTGO system is vastly better than the current Hex AH. If I do a bunch of drafts and want to sell what I've drafted to fund more drafts, I can sell them all (including sub-penny commons) to a reputable bot in 5 minutes for decent value, or shop around a bit for better value. With Hex it will take much longer and low-value items just won't sell. A junk rare which doesn't sell due to the price floor earns me 0p.

Banquetto
06-25-2014, 04:16 PM
Have we had any statement from CZE as to the reason for the price floors?

I've seen a lot of people speaking for them, saying things like "it's to reduce server load!", "it's to ensure cards get sold on the gold AH!", "it's to ensure that people always get a fair price for their cards!" etc. etc.

But I'd love to hear the official reason(s) behind this design decision.

Gwaer
06-25-2014, 04:27 PM
*sets up an elaborate pentagram mandala* *steps inside* *Says Charks name three times while turning counterclockwise* *Sets a dollar on fire*.

fido_one
06-25-2014, 04:30 PM
*sets up an elaborate pentagram mandala* *steps inside* *Says Charks name three times while turning counterclockwise* *Sets a dollar on fire*.

...and nothing happens.

Sorry Gwaer, ten dollar price floor for summoning Chark.

Lawlschool
06-25-2014, 04:31 PM
*sets up an elaborate hexagram mandala* *steps inside* *says charks name three times while turning counterclockwise* *sets a dollar on fire*.

ftfy

Vorpal
06-25-2014, 04:35 PM
I think this thread can be divided between those who are aware of the unrelieved record of failure price controls have had in economics, and those for whom it doesn't seem worth it to argue over a mere 30 cents.

That said, the AH,and the platinum market, are only one small part of the picture. Perhaps CZE has some other goal in mind other than artificially propping up the price of junk rares.

mach
06-25-2014, 05:02 PM
*sets up an elaborate pentagram mandala* *steps inside* *Says Charks name three times while turning counterclockwise* *Sets a dollar on fire*.

You idiot.

Clockwise = Summon Chark.
Counterclockwise = Crash the server.

Now look what you've done. (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=36688)

Gwaer
06-25-2014, 05:31 PM
Hexagram mandalas are no good for summoning and binding, if I wanted to create a plague or something ridiculous I'd use a hexagram, 1 dollar has more metaphysical weight than 10 dollars. The 10 cannot exist without the one. And nothing truly interesting has ever been accomplished by turning clockwise. Clearly you guys are not steeped in the occult.

Kroan
06-26-2014, 04:13 AM
Well, in the meantime, if a "orange" could let us know what the floor is for promo's? I can't put a Windbourne Acolyte up for 50p :/

Edit: Nvm. It's 100p. /sigh

DocX
06-26-2014, 08:26 AM
If this is the reason, they should have announced upfront that it is temporary. Plus, they should have just made a single price floor, not a different one for each rarity. Or just capped the total number of auctions temporarily or something.

If they capped the total number of auctions, folks would be irritated when they weren't able to post auctions at all. With a price floor, it's up to the individual seller to make the decision to list the card and the individual purchaser(s) to make the decision to bid on the card.


No cards are destroyed when an AH transaction occurs. There is the same number of cards in the market with or without floors.

Poorly worded on my part. Collectors want to get 4x of each card. If there are imbalances in a collection, those are resolved via the AH (and, later, trading). The less the activity, the longer these imbalances stick around and the more possible auctions there will be down the line (in Open Beta or after release).

Personally, once I've got 4x of a card, the rest I get will be for trading and the AH.


Market volatility is more of an issue for high-end and commodity items, not low-end ones. If my junk rares drop from 10p to 7p, I'm probably not that upset. If my boosters drop from 120p to 100p or my chase legendaries drop from 1000p to 700p, that's a bigger problem.

Market volatility is an issue anywhere. If I buy a card for 100p and then see it for 10p, I'm going to be an unhappy purchaser. Similarly, if I sell a card for 10p and see another selling for 100p, I'm going to be an unhappy seller. Having a stable market provides a better experience for the vast majority of the market participants.


What does this accomplish? There is no PvE yet, so there are no gold-only players who would benefit from this. Encouraging players to list things for gold is something that they should do after PvE arrives, and then only if things not getting listed for gold is actually a problem. And there are better ways to do this, such as lower fees when you list with gold.

Gold isn't just for PVE and just because there's not a lot for gold to be used for right now doesn't mean it isn't useful. Also, if there's going to be encouragement for PVP cards to be listed for gold, that should be in from day one to minimize fundamental market changes later on.

Finally, just to be clear, there are no listing fees. There are only fees when something is actually sold.


But what about the person who buys the Legendary worth 200p, then sees it drop in value because it can be crafted from 10 junk rares? If this were the reason, they should have implemented price ceilings as well. Even better, give us a crafting preview and let the market sort out the details.

I'm pretty sure the folks at CZE have said crafting will be for PVE cards, not for PVP cards. So the scenario you posit (someone buying a card that will then be able to be crafted cheaper) will not occur given there are only PVP cards available at the moment. But I do agree I would like to get more information on crafting. I understand the time and resource constraints on the Hex team, however, and realize the details haven't been released because of that and not because they don't want to share them with us.


The sad thing is that the MTGO system is vastly better than the current Hex AH. If I do a bunch of drafts and want to sell what I've drafted to fund more drafts, I can sell them all (including sub-penny commons) to a reputable bot in 5 minutes for decent value, or shop around a bit for better value. With Hex it will take much longer and low-value items just won't sell. A junk rare which doesn't sell due to the price floor earns me 0p.

So, the system MODO has created and refined over several years of operation is better than the system Hex released in their Beta product a few days ago? The AH in WoW is also much better than Hex. But comparing apples to Pac Man levels doesn't do much to advance the discussion. I'm confident Hex's AH will get better over time (just as the game itself has over the past several months). Expecting it to compare feature for feature with systems that have been around for several years doesn't give a very level playing field for Hex.

DocX
06-26-2014, 08:33 AM
I think this thread can be divided between those who are aware of the unrelieved record of failure price controls have had in economics, and those for whom it doesn't seem worth it to argue over a mere 30 cents.

I don't think I'd say 30 cents is not worth discussing, but I would say I'm quite aware of the history of price controls and I'd take issue with the contention they have failed universally. The minimum wage, which is a price control on worker availability, had done quite well at providing additional benefit to workers without detrimentally affecting the market as a whole.


That said, the AH,and the platinum market, are only one small part of the picture. Perhaps CZE has some other goal in mind other than artificially propping up the price of junk rares.

This I very much agree with (given my previous post expounding on possible goals that CZE might have for instituting price floors).

Rycajo
06-26-2014, 09:24 AM
I don't think I'd say 30 cents is not worth discussing, but I would say I'm quite aware of the history of price controls and I'd take issue with the contention they have failed universally. The minimum wage, which is a price control on worker availability, had done quite well at providing additional benefit to workers without detrimentally affecting the market as a whole.

Hide your wife, hide your kids, because DocX just brought up the minimum wage in an economics thread. Things just got dangerous.

nicosharp
06-26-2014, 09:43 AM
Comparing price floor economics of a virtual game with two subdivisions of economy, to the historical application of price floors in the economy.

Quite a bit different.

Specially with instant access to the content, from several angles now. Was not the same with history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_floor
http://economics.fundamentalfinance.com/micro_price-floor.php

In every example in that second document, you can list 1-3 reasons why Hex is functionally different. Most of those reasons can be summed up as:
1 - Player to player trade
2 - 3rd party markets
3 - Crafting
4 - Reduction of AH spamming (including bots, and chat spam, and glut of low value surplus cards that won't sell regardless)

cavench
06-26-2014, 11:33 AM
My initial thought on the price floors is that HexEnt is testing some of their economist's theories. Which can be understandable since this is the first official AH for a TCG (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm fine if price floor is later removed, but at this point I'm leaning toward supporting its existence. I believe an equilibrium exists that can make [almost] everyone happy while healthy for the Hex economy. Maybe the equilibrium isn't at 30 plat for a rare, but what about 25? 15? 5? or even 0?

chili
06-26-2014, 12:13 PM
My initial thought on the price floors is that HexEnt is testing some of their economist's theories. Which can be understandable since this is the first official AH for a TCG (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm fine if price floor is later removed, but at this point I'm leaning toward supporting its existence. I believe an equilibrium exists that can make [almost] everyone happy while healthy for the Hex economy. Maybe the equilibrium isn't at 30 plat for a rare, but what about 25? 15? 5? or even 0?

15 is probably ok 30 is a lot

zadies
06-26-2014, 12:17 PM
Did anyone actually consider that the floor price currently exists because we do not know anything about the crafting system and cze is attempting to stop people from going well lets sell these for uber cheap right now because the card itself is worthless in the extreme but cze has an idea about what they are preciving the future worth of the crafting system and doesn't want people to be completely ripped off atm?

If I sold a card for 1 plat and then realized that the crafting made the materials from breaking it down worth 30 plat I would be extremely upset... but tbh setting a floor price for the rares/commons/uncommons also sets a floor price for what the packs are worth indirectly.

Lawlschool
06-26-2014, 12:36 PM
Did anyone actually consider that the floor price currently exists because we do not know anything about the crafting system and cze is attempting to stop people from going well lets sell these for uber cheap right now because the card itself is worthless in the extreme but cze has an idea about what they are preciving the future worth of the crafting system and doesn't want people to be completely ripped off atm?


That's actually the most popular conjecture for why the floor exists.

Xexist
06-26-2014, 02:45 PM
Did anyone actually consider that the floor price currently exists because we do not know anything about the crafting system and cze is attempting to stop people from going well lets sell these for uber cheap right now because the card itself is worthless in the extreme but cze has an idea about what they are preciving the future worth of the crafting system and doesn't want people to be completely ripped off atm?

If I sold a card for 1 plat and then realized that the crafting made the materials from breaking it down worth 30 plat I would be extremely upset... but tbh setting a floor price for the rares/commons/uncommons also sets a floor price for what the packs are worth indirectly.

Im sure people considered a lot of things. Unless they come out and explain why they did it I am not going to just assume that is why though.

a-V-e-n
06-26-2014, 03:04 PM
People often say the price floors are there because of crafting. I say it's very wrong. Why would they base their PvE systems on a real money currency? I don't think Platinum is used in crafting in any way. PvE rewards, including crafting, are certainly designed with their Gold value in mind. For example they have to determine the fixed Gold costs of things and Gold drops from various sources. But now look at the Gold AH - there are no floors! You can sell your Rares and Legendaries for just 1G.

zadies
06-26-2014, 03:44 PM
I said the price floor is there because crafting is not in yet so we don't actually as players understand the total value of the cards.... also they could be there just as easily to make sure that cze gets a cut of all sales given how the ah cut works.
The fact is that pvp cards are going to be worth something as a component of crafting, and without knowing how the component system is going to work we as players can not accurately predict the value of a given card currently so the price floor is there to keep idiots from making mistakes atm and then blaming cze for their lost value when they decided to gamble that cards would have no value and sell them stupidly cheap.

Lawlschool
06-26-2014, 04:27 PM
IF floors are in place for crafting purposes, it would likely be to ensure that the crafting components / crafted items retain value.

Let's say a rare can be broken down in to a crafting component called a "Sliver." Now say you need ten "Slivers" to craft a piece of equipment. With floors in place, it'd cost someone 300p to craft that equip. Without floors, it might cost as low as 10p. This is (arguably) problematic for a couple reasons. First, that piece of equipment would be completely devalued compared to if a floor was in place. More troubling, however, is that crafting would become trivial for anyone who can get their hands on some plat, which doesn't seem ideal for the f2p crowd. There's also the possibility that without a floor, most junk rares will be sold for plat, which again makes it difficult for the f2p crowd to use them for crafting. The floor encourages people looking to move junk rares to sell them for gold, which is good for the f2p crowd / PvE crafters. Granted, it's still possible to circumvent the floor by selling cards outside of the AH, so any potentialy problematic impact dirt-cheap junk rares may or may not have on crafting won't be completely eliminated.

Yoss
06-26-2014, 04:53 PM
Anyone saying that price floors will boost value of goods is bad at history, economics, or both. Price controls don't increase the value of the goods (i.e. the free market equilibrium point is not affected), they just create alternate markets in which to express the (unchanged) value (black markets IRL, gold market or p2p trading in Hex). Price floors will not boost pack values or card values.


Have we had any statement from CZE as to the reason for the price floors?

I've seen a lot of people speaking for them, saying things like "it's to reduce server load!", "it's to ensure cards get sold on the gold AH!", "it's to ensure that people always get a fair price for their cards!" etc. etc.

But I'd love to hear the official reason(s) behind this design decision.

This. (again)

Thraeg
06-26-2014, 05:06 PM
Anyone saying that price floors will boost value of goods is bad at history, economics, or both. Price controls don't increase the value of the goods (i.e. the free market equilibrium point is not affected), they just create alternate markets in which to express the (unchanged) value (black markets IRL, gold market or p2p trading in Hex). Price floors will not boost pack values or card values.

To a certain degree, that's true, but don't discount the friction and time cost of going to alternate markets especially when weighed against the small amount of money involved. I can easily see just being willing to pay the 30p to get what I want right away from right there in the client, with plat that's already sitting there on my account. Saving 15 cents might not be worth the hassle of going somewhere else, finding what I want, entering a new batch of payment information, waiting for it to arrive, etc.

mach
06-26-2014, 05:36 PM
To a certain degree, that's true, but don't discount the friction and time cost of going to alternate markets especially when weighed against the small amount of money involved. I can easily see just being willing to pay the 30p to get what I want right away from right there in the client, with plat that's already sitting there on my account. Saving 15 cents might not be worth the hassle of going somewhere else, finding what I want, entering a new batch of payment information, waiting for it to arrive, etc.

If you're only looking to buy 1 card, sure. But how often does that happen? When I buy singles it's to complete a deck, which means buying a whole bunch of cards at once. 30p each starts adding up.

In terms of time cost, the current AH implementation is itself extremely inefficient if you're looking to buy or sell a bunch of things at once. The moment of truth will come when trading is implemented and someone makes a MTGO-style bot. Unless they make major changes to the AH by then, the bot will be more attractive then the AH in terms of both time and cost.

At this point, CZE will have 2 choices.

1. Ban the bot, angering the community and surrendering any claim to be "fans first."
2. Improve the AH so it can compete with bots. This will require, among other things, ditching the price floor.

ossuary
06-26-2014, 08:15 PM
They have already stated clearly that they will not allow botting and that attempting to run a bot will result in a permanent ban and loss of your collection. Cory has stated unequivocally that he will not fuck around with botters.

Your point #1 is ridiculous. People should not want there to be bots, because it gives anyone who has them a huge advantage over anyone who doesn't. People should want the interface to be good enough so that a bot is not necessary to function. The AH is massively inconvenient and clunky right now, but it is technically proficient. It will improve with time and more development work, I have no doubt of that. Patience, as always, is required.

mach
06-26-2014, 08:34 PM
They have already stated clearly that they will not allow botting and that attempting to run a bot will result in a permanent ban and loss of your collection. Cory has stated unequivocally that he will not fuck around with botters.

Your point #1 is ridiculous. People should not want there to be bots, because it gives anyone who has them a huge advantage over anyone who doesn't. People should want the interface to be good enough so that a bot is not necessary to function. The AH is massively inconvenient and clunky right now, but it is technically proficient. It will improve with time and more development work, I have no doubt of that. Patience, as always, is required.

It's not just a technical problem. If they're going to stick with price floors, the AH will never allow me to buy cheap rares for market price like I can do with a bot. Banning something which is cheaper/more convenient for players is the very opposite of "fans first."

I don't see how someone with a bot has a huge advantage. The economy is not the game. The game is the game. If having a bot is an unfair advantage, so is having a high budget.

But even if it were, that's a solvable problem. Require bots to be open source and free to anyone. Take a look at what Blizzard requires for WoW mods to see the kind of restrictions which make things fair for everyone.

Werlix
06-26-2014, 09:58 PM
Defending bots. Now I have seen everything. Am I this out of touch with the internet these days that bots are now kinda ok with people?

:facepalming:

Xexist
06-26-2014, 11:09 PM
Defending bots. Now I have seen everything. Am I this out of touch with the internet these days that bots are now kinda ok with people?

:palmingface:

For gameplay, obviously not. In a market place, Im not convinced it would be bad. (nor am I saying it would be good)

sukebe
06-27-2014, 01:54 AM
Defending bots. Now I have seen everything. Am I this out of touch with the internet these days that bots are now kinda ok with people?

:palmingface:

they are certainly not ok with me. I applaud corys stand against them and cannot believe anyone would actually want them. I know many games that died out at least in part due to those disgusting antisocial creations. If you want to sell and buy cards, sit your ass down and barter with people like a human being.

Kroan
06-27-2014, 03:35 AM
People are confusing two different kind of bots in this thread;

1) A bot that grinds the AH and snipes off cheap cards
2) A bot that trades directly with a player (so not through the AH), preferably with a website behind it where people can order or buy stuff. Bot could also just use the ingame mail for example.

The #2 wouldn't be all that bad if you ask me.

zadies
06-27-2014, 07:35 AM
There is no gray areas for bots... any bot needs to be treated the same as any other bot otherwise it leads to confusion and people attempting to push the boundaries about what is allowable.
Also the price floor could just be temporary until all of the features that actually feed into the value of cards are completed.

Xenavire
06-27-2014, 01:01 PM
I have never met a globally useful bot (by that I mean I have never seen a bot that is beneficial to anyone except the user of said bot.) For example, having bots that went behind the AH completely undermines what the AH is there for. That is incredibly bad for the game (plus makes the whole development time of the AH questionable - why make a program at all if bots were going to handle everything anyway?)

All bots abuse things somehow. All bots are designed to give one player an edge that another does not. If one type of bot is not allowed, no type of bot should be.

It is really that simple in my eyes. There is too much grey area in the types of bots - we can't have a grey area in the types of bots we allow. All or nothing.

Kroan
06-27-2014, 01:38 PM
I have never met a globally useful bot (by that I mean I have never seen a bot that is beneficial to anyone except the user of said bot.)
Eh. That's weird. There are so many useful bots. Twitch Chat Bots for example. Or the bots on steam that help you trade cards (without them turning a profit). Just because a bot (or program) exist, doesn't mean it's bad.

Sites like the HTP-store would most likely benefit from a bot that mails the cards they sold on their site. This will also benefit the buyer directly.

I am actually thinking of writing a bot myself. Not to buy and sell stuff on the AH mind you. (I did write a chatbot before as well, for information on my twitch channel)

mach
06-27-2014, 01:43 PM
I have never met a globally useful bot (by that I mean I have never seen a bot that is beneficial to anyone except the user of said bot.) For example, having bots that went behind the AH completely undermines what the AH is there for. That is incredibly bad for the game (plus makes the whole development time of the AH questionable - why make a program at all if bots were going to handle everything anyway?)

All bots abuse things somehow. All bots are designed to give one player an edge that another does not. If one type of bot is not allowed, no type of bot should be.

It is really that simple in my eyes. There is too much grey area in the types of bots - we can't have a grey area in the types of bots we allow. All or nothing.

I take it you've never played MTGO...because bots are the cornerstone of the economy there and are very beneficial to players. Sure they make money, but that's fine because they provide a valuable service. If I want to sell several drafts worth of cards, I can do that in 5 minutes and get pretty good value. Similarly, if I need cards for a deck, I can get them very quickly at a reasonable price (assuming I stick to reputable bots). If I have no in-game currency I can even use a bot to trade cards for other cards of similar value.

Do you also think HexTCGPro's store should not be allowed? The bots I am talking about are just stores which are automated and operate using in-game currency instead of USD.

Yes, with an ideal system (a very advanced bid/ask AH) bots wouldn't be necessary. We're a long way from that point though. Until we get there, banning bots will hurt players, plain and simple.

Zophie
06-27-2014, 02:20 PM
While we're on the subject of bots and automation, how does everyone feel about allowing tools to scan your listings on the AH to check for undercuts so you can more easily identify which ones you'd like to take down and relist for cheaper? Ideally it'd be nice if this was a feature added to the listings page itself by CZE, but that's yet to be seen.

Niedar
06-27-2014, 03:56 PM
I have never met a globally useful bot (by that I mean I have never seen a bot that is beneficial to anyone except the user of said bot.) For example, having bots that went behind the AH completely undermines what the AH is there for. That is incredibly bad for the game (plus makes the whole development time of the AH questionable - why make a program at all if bots were going to handle everything anyway?)

All bots abuse things somehow. All bots are designed to give one player an edge that another does not. If one type of bot is not allowed, no type of bot should be.

It is really that simple in my eyes. There is too much grey area in the types of bots - we can't have a grey area in the types of bots we allow. All or nothing.

So you are telling me a bot that scans each card on the AH daily to find out what price it is going for and then use that data to create a time series graph of price history publically available on a website is not beneficial? This is something that could be created with an API but since that doesn't exist the only solution is to use a bot.

Lawlschool
06-27-2014, 04:12 PM
While we're on the subject of bots and automation, how does everyone feel about allowing tools to scan your listings on the AH to check for undercuts so you can more easily identify which ones you'd like to take down and relist for cheaper? Ideally it'd be nice if this was a feature added to the listings page itself by CZE, but that's yet to be seen.

I would be overjoyed if we could get something like TSM / Auctioneer for Hex. Really any sort of semi-automated posting / canceling feature would be incredible.

Xenavire
06-27-2014, 04:35 PM
And what happens if CZE allows one kind of bot? Some other 'harmless' bot that would be a 'QoL improvement' would crop up, and people will beg to be able to use it... And then the next one, and the next one. Once CZE gives the OK to one bot, they open a door they may not be able to close without upsetting and alienating a lot of people.

And even the listed bots are not universally useful for every player - if you looked at the global effect of even a handful of trading bots, you end up cutting out a few players from an opportunity they would have had otherwise. It is a tiny, negligible effect that most people wouldn't even notice, but the more bots, the larger the impact. I want real people trading cards, not bots.

So I am happy with the no-tolerance stance CZE has taken. I haven't tried MTGO, but since everything I have ever heard about it is negative, I want Hex to be as different as possible.

mach
06-27-2014, 04:46 PM
And what happens if CZE allows one kind of bot? Some other 'harmless' bot that would be a 'QoL improvement' would crop up, and people will beg to be able to use it... And then the next one, and the next one. Once CZE gives the OK to one bot, they open a door they may not be able to close without upsetting and alienating a lot of people.


https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope



And even the listed bots are not universally useful for every player - if you looked at the global effect of even a handful of trading bots, you end up cutting out a few players from an opportunity they would have had otherwise. It is a tiny, negligible effect that most people wouldn't even notice, but the more bots, the larger the impact. I want real people trading cards, not bots.


Pretty much nothing is universally useful to every player. What matters is whether the positives to the community as a whole outweigh the negatives. Which they do in this case.



So I am happy with the no-tolerance stance CZE has taken. I haven't tried MTGO, but since everything I have ever heard about it is negative, I want Hex to be as different as possible.

You want Hex to be as different as possible even when that means being worse than MTGO?

nicosharp
06-27-2014, 05:56 PM
I'm sorry, but bots, unless provided and programmed by the game itself, provide a barrier to entry for new players, and players without the expertise or time to manage/create one.

The only benefit they provide is to the users of said bots.

The AH provides the only in-game resource needed for players, old and new, to get what they want, when they want it.

This iteration of the AH in Hex, is already miles ahead of the crap and spam you get trying to trade in MTG:O.

Problem is TCG's breed min-maxers. Sorry but those posting here are a vocal minority. You don't represent casual gamers. The type of gamers that feel ripped off two days after they sell a uncommon to a bot for 1 plat, that can be flipped for 10 plat in the AH. Bots just add a third party passive market on top of a market already established.

This isn't a game made to give players tools and resources to make money/profit. IE: This isnt "Auction House - The Game."

Lawlschool
06-27-2014, 06:07 PM
This isn't a game made to give players tools and resources to make money/profit. IE: This isnt "Auction House - The Game."

Exactly. I'm definitely a little disappointed that it won't be, since that's something I was looking forward to (mostly for PvE - crafting empires are fun, flipping cards, not so much), but it's understandable why they wouldn't want to focus on that.

sukebe
06-27-2014, 07:21 PM
People are confusing two different kind of bots in this thread;

1) A bot that grinds the AH and snipes off cheap cards
2) A bot that trades directly with a player (so not through the AH), preferably with a website behind it where people can order or buy stuff. Bot could also just use the ingame mail for example.

The #2 wouldn't be all that bad if you ask me.

I am not confusing this. I know the difference and I hate both (not equally but that hardly matters). Again, this is a social game. If you want to buy or sell cards, then barter them yourself. One of the reasons I purchased a GK tier is that cory made it very clear what his stance on bots of any kind is and it fit my stance.

Social games are not for bots and bots are not for social games. It is that simple. Interact with people while you buy and sell cards, it is part of the experience whether it is something you enjoy or not.

mach
06-27-2014, 07:32 PM
I am not confusing this. I know the difference and I hate both (not equally but that hardly matters). Again, this is a social game. If you want to buy or sell cards, then barter them yourself. One of the reasons I purchased a GK tier is that cory made it very clear what his stance on bots of any kind is and it fit my stance.

Social games are not for bots and bots are not for social games. It is that simple. Interact with people while you buy and sell cards, it is part of the experience whether it is something you enjoy or not.

Yes, this is a social game. I agree with you that I don't want bots playing the game (well, outside PvE of course).

However, the economy is not the game. So I don't have any problem with automated stores as part of the economy.

I want to interact with people when I'm actually playing the game. When I'm buying/selling, I want to get it over with as fast as possible so I can get back to playing the game. If bots can help me get back to the game more quickly, that's a good thing.

Yoss
06-27-2014, 08:04 PM
I'd much rather have a bid/ask system than allow bots.

mach
06-27-2014, 08:26 PM
I'd much rather have a bid/ask system than allow bots.

I agree, but that will take a while. In the meantime, I'd rather have bots then no bots, especially since bots is basically zero work on their part. They just have to implement trading (which they're already doing), say "we won't ban you", and let third parties do all the work.

RamzaBehoulve
06-28-2014, 07:37 AM
Allow bots or remove price floors seem like a simple choice, but either has to be done. The current setup cannot be allowed to continue.

ossuary
06-28-2014, 09:13 AM
Never deal in absolutes.

:p

mach
06-28-2014, 11:46 AM
Never deal in absolutes.

:p

That's always good advice.

:p

LargoLaGrande
06-28-2014, 12:01 PM
I'd much rather have a bid/ask system than allow bots.

Yea, the GW2 auction house was pretty awesome.

sukebe
06-28-2014, 01:15 PM
say what you will but cory has made it clear he hates bots (maybe as much as I do) so I am confident that if anyone tries it they will be punished in some way. I think this is a smart move on their part for the reasons I already mentioned above.

chili
06-28-2014, 08:14 PM
Never deal in absolutes.

:p

Only the sith do so...

and the jedi too apparently xD

Bells
07-01-2014, 07:34 AM
i would rather never have bots at all in Hex than to "Risk it and see what happens". i'm happy with the way Crypt is dealing with this... no tolerance for bots is the way to go.