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Shaqattaq
07-15-2014, 03:08 PM
by Chark

Now that the auction house allows players to buy and sell cards in building their collections, we looked to support Constructed HEX with scheduled 128-person tournaments. Over the last couple of weeks, we’ve tested the stability of these tournaments and the swiss pairing feature. We’re now happy with the current state of these tournaments and we’re offering them to players with prizes. You will play 4 rounds and earn prizes based on your number of wins. Undefeated records are awarded 4,000 platinum worth of HEX booster packs for just a 500 platinum entry fee!

https://hextcg.com/constructing-hex/

nicosharp
07-15-2014, 03:22 PM
Nice job. Like the write up and peek at some of the undefeated decks. Gives the newer community, or non-pros a bit of insight into what is working in the current meta, and a gauntlet to test against. Also awesome about the constructed 8 man queues. That definitely will spice things up, and I'll definitely plan to test those out.

Westane
07-15-2014, 03:55 PM
20 packs for a 4-0 finish the Hex equivalent of a DE with a 3rd of a entry cost (of a DE)? Yeah, I'm down for that.

Between this, Set 2, Naxx and DotP 2015 (say what you will) it's a good time to be a digital TCG/CCG player.

Freebird_Falcon
07-15-2014, 04:00 PM
pretty fascinating that a 0 troop deck went undefeated.

Yoss
07-15-2014, 04:01 PM
Competitive Constructed Queue
Entry fee: 300 plat
1st Place: 7 packs, 20,000 gold
2nd Place: 4 packs, 17,000 gold
3rd and 4th Place: 2 packs, 10,000 gold
5th through 8th Place: 5,000 gold

Constructed Queue
Entry fee: 300 plat
3 wins: 5 packs, 20,000 gold
2 wins: 2 packs, 12,000 gold
1 wins: 1 pack, 5000 gold
0 wins: 1 pack, 5000 gold


Devaluing our packs and collections here. Booster price is now effectively 160p retail. If it was bad to buy packs in the Store before, now it's just plain stupid to do so! I guess it's better now than later to make such a drastic pricing change in the game, but I do not like it.

Kroan
07-15-2014, 04:08 PM
Devaluing our packs and collections here. Booster price is now effectively 160p retail. If it was bad to buy packs in the Store before, now it's just plain stupid to do so! I guess it's better now than later to make such a drastic pricing change in the game, but I do not like it.

I do like the change. They want more people to play constructed, and one way to do that is to up the rewards you gain from entering. Might just pull me over to play in an 8-man queue now and then, even though I am a heavy limited fan.

Good work CZE! :)

Chark
07-15-2014, 04:15 PM
Devaluing our packs and collections here. Booster price is now effectively 160p retail. If it was bad to buy packs in the Store before, now it's just plain stupid to do so! I guess it's better now than later to make such a drastic pricing change in the game, but I do not like it.

Draft was already pushing packs down to 155p (4.5 boosters for 700 plat = 155.56 plat / booster). This change just brought constructed in line with the rest of tournaments.

nicosharp
07-15-2014, 04:20 PM
Devaluing our packs and collections here. Booster price is now effectively 160p retail. If it was bad to buy packs in the Store before, now it's just plain stupid to do so! I guess it's better now than later to make such a drastic pricing change in the game, but I do not like it.
:confused: It's going to get more people to play competitive constructed queues. I don't see the problem here? NO ONE plays this right now.

No prices changed, rewards changed. Plat that goes in does not have to equal Packs that come out. Virtual packs have no overhead costs, and its better to incentivize the competitive community than to punish them. PvE will be able to create value just by questing with 0 skin in the game.


pretty fascinating that a 0 troop deck went undefeated.
More fascinating that a 0 troop deck with Ivory Pawn went undefeated :P

Yoss
07-15-2014, 04:20 PM
Draft was already pushing packs down to 155p (4.5 boosters for 700 plat = 155.56 plat / booster). This change just brought constructed in line with the rest of tournaments.

Draft is a sink, not a faucet, right? How can it be creating downward pressure on price when it is a net consumer, not a supplier?

Chark
07-15-2014, 04:28 PM
Draft is a sink, not a faucet, right? How can it be creating downward pressure on price when it is a net consumer, not a supplier?

Because the pack price is related to single card prices (on aggregate). Even if a player is receiving only 1.5 boosters from a draft, they walk away with cards which they may attempt to convert into plat. That activity reduces secondary market prices on singles (and subsequently on packs).

Yoss
07-15-2014, 04:33 PM
Because the pack price is related to single card prices (on aggregate). Even if a player is receiving only 1.5 boosters from a draft, they walk away with cards which they may attempt to convert into plat. That activity reduces secondary market prices on singles (and subsequently on packs).

Sure, Draft creates singles whose value follows the form:
C <= (8*DF + 12*B)/24
where C is the value of the contents of a pack, B is the value of a sealed pack, and DF is the draft fee.

Note that if you drop the pack value (B), you will also drop the value of the contents (obvious) and force C to remain below B (not obvious). It is not C that is pulling B down, it is B that is forcing C down. Or maybe you have different math?

EDIT:
When lots of Limited is going on, B will go up, not down. C will go down, not up, because Limited has no use for C, only for B.

Khendral
07-15-2014, 04:39 PM
The picture in the article makes me wonder if Ancestor's Chosen got AA :)

mach
07-15-2014, 04:40 PM
Undefeated records are awarded 4,000 platinum worth of HEX booster packs for just a 500 platinum entry fee!

20 boosters is only worth 4000 plat if boosters are worth 200 plat each. Which, as you are well aware, is not the case. So why say this?


Because the pack price is related to single card prices (on aggregate). Even if a player is receiving only 1.5 boosters from a draft, they walk away with cards which they may attempt to convert into plat. That activity reduces secondary market prices on singles (and subsequently on packs).

They are related, but not equal to. So draft doesn't automatically push back prices down to 155p. It pushes the EV of the contents of boosters down, but in a stable market boosters can be worth more than the EV of their contents (see MTGO prices for proof). In fact, the prize structure of draft pretty much requires what boosters be worth more than their contents, or drafting would be +EV for the table.

the_artic_one
07-15-2014, 04:40 PM
The image is called ProphetofWren maybe it's a set 2 card.

Lawlschool
07-15-2014, 04:47 PM
pretty fascinating that a 0 troop deck went undefeated.

Better yet, a Shin'Hare deck!

Axle
07-15-2014, 05:02 PM
In case you didn't see the other thread post:
Can you show the champions too? Mine plays Nin The Shadow and it's pretty important to anyone who wants to try it.

I like my tournament 18717 4-0 build better but I'm not complaining as the deck does become slightly more "meta-ish" and this one shows off the concept better.

AdamAoE2
07-15-2014, 05:11 PM
That's actually a really cool deck idea Axle, I like the deck a lot. My deck is probably the most boring on the list, haha. I'm honestly surprised at such a huge variance in different decks. Awesome!

Jonesy
07-15-2014, 05:12 PM
Packs are worth what the AH says they're worth, which right now is about 133 plat, nowhere near that 155 people above are saying.

Yoss
07-15-2014, 05:17 PM
Packs are worth what the AH says they're worth, which right now is about 133 plat, nowhere near that 155 people above are saying.

No one said they're worth 155p on the AH. Chark said (incorrectly, IMO) that they're 155p when purchased from Draft. I said they're now 160p when purchased from Constructed (instead of the old way which was 200p); that's a RETAIL price, not an AH price.

nicosharp
07-15-2014, 05:39 PM
No one said they're worth 155p on the AH. Chark said (incorrectly, IMO) that they're 155p when purchased from Draft. I said they're now 160p when purchased from Constructed (instead of the old way which was 200p); that's a RETAIL price, not an AH price.

Which is friggin troll to begin with, because no one at the competitive level needs to compare to retail prices anyway. Retail prices are there for casual players looking to improve their collection. These players will likely not even realize the game has an auction house button, let alone a auction house. I think for now on, when anyone talks about competitive prizes and value, retail needs to go out the window right away into any equation.

Yoss
07-15-2014, 05:56 PM
Which is friggin troll to begin with, because no one at the competitive level needs to compare to retail prices anyway. Retail prices are there for casual players looking to improve their collection. These players will likely not even realize the game has an auction house button, let alone a auction house. I think for now on, when anyone talks about competitive prizes and value, retail needs to go out the window right away into any equation.

Thank you for the needless and ignorant insult.

Where do you think those AH packs come from? It should be obvious that every pack on the AH came from CZE at some point in some way.

As such, the source price of boosters is VERY relevant for economic analysis and has a huge effect on the eventual AH price. All the AH prices you see stem directly from the source price of those items. Right now, prices are low because the source price was primarily determined by Kickstarter and Slacker Backer, which was far below the 200p store price. In the future, prices will continue to follow directly from the sources, but those sources will no longer be KS and will instead be the Store and Tournaments (mostly the on-demand variety since they're unlimited in supply). This thread's announcement means the Store is obsolete because instead of 200p, you can buy packs at 160p through Construced. Basically CZE just axed their card pricing model by 20%. It's not the end of the world, but wow, what a kick in the gut for collectors who've already spent money thinking the collection would be worth X and now it will be worth 0.8*X instead!

Werlix
07-15-2014, 05:57 PM
Devaluing our packs and collections here. Booster price is now effectively 160p retail. If it was bad to buy packs in the Store before, now it's just plain stupid to do so! I guess it's better now than later to make such a drastic pricing change in the game, but I do not like it.

You don't like stuff for free? Wow... I sure do :) Screw the "value" of my collection, I want rewards and shinies :)



what a kick in the gut for collectors who've already spent money thinking the collection would be worth X and now it will be worth 0.8*X instead!

I have a pretty extensive collection and I couldn't care less about its value.

Yoss
07-15-2014, 06:00 PM
You don't like stuff for free? Wow... I sure do :) Screw the "value" of my collection, I want rewards and shinies :)

If it had been the plan all along, sure. A cheaper game is great for the (non-collector) customer. However, if they wanted people to have faith in the value of their digital goods, they just did themselves a huge disservice by axing values 20% seemingly at whim. It's Closed Beta, so perhaps not so horrible, but I sure hope they nail their pricing down hard before Open Beta.

Yoss
07-15-2014, 06:07 PM
Relevant excerpt from a great post on the subject of Constructed and the whole TCG economy:


Finding the right balance between entry fees to perceived value of prizes and cost of additional material (boosters for draft, building a deck for constructed events as a one time fee) while still making people feel that their collection has value is a bit of an art form. The important thing to realize is that, economically speaking, CZE is NOT in the business of selling boosters to players. They sell platinum, and cards and boosters solely exist as a means of getting people to spend platinum on tournament entry fees. Of course the best way to achieve that is to create a game people enjoy playing. The 200 platinum nominal value of boosters solely exists to set an upper limit to the prices of cards and draft queues, with an additional psychological bonus of people feeling they got a good deal with obtaining cheaper boosters through the AH or playing the game. Ideally, the entire market wouldn't look much different if the only source of boosters were constructed tournaments (once an initial card base has been established to allow people to even play in these, almost all of this doesn't apply to Set 1 too much.).

Note the bolded portion. Upping the prizes is purely a way to get higher tournament participation at the expense of the value of our digital goods (many of which we've already paid for). There's a saying in economics: "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

Is it good for the game? I don't know, but it is worth noting that this isn't just a "hooray free stuff" moment.

Werlix
07-15-2014, 06:09 PM
If it had been the plan all along, sure. A cheaper game is great for the (non-collector) customer. However, if they wanted people to have faith in the value of their digital goods, they just did themselves a huge disservice by axing values 20% seemingly at whim. It's Closed Beta, so perhaps not so horrible, but I sure hope they nail their pricing down hard before Open Beta.

Ok, I guess I just don't get this idea of my collection having "value". To me, the "value" of a collection is the decks I can build with it, what I can do with it in game. What's the purpose of a collection having a high plat value? So the account can be sold for cash later (if that's even allowed in the TOS)?

nicosharp
07-15-2014, 06:10 PM
Thank you for the needless and ignorant insult.

Where do you think those AH packs come from? It should be obvious that every pack on the AH came from CZE at some point in some way.

As such, the source price of boosters is VERY relevant for economic analysis and has a huge effect on the eventual AH price. All the AH prices you see stem directly from the source price of those items. Right now, prices are low because the source price was primarily determined by Kickstarter and Slacker Backer, which was far below the 200p store price. In the future, prices will continue to follow directly from the sources, but those sources will no longer be KS and will instead be the Store and Tournaments (mostly the on-demand variety since they're unlimited in supply). This thread's announcement means the Store is obsolete because instead of 200p, you can buy packs at 160p through Construced. Basically CZE just axed their card pricing model by 20%. It's not the end of the world, but wow, what a kick in the gut for collectors who've already spent money thinking the collection would be worth X and now it will be worth 0.8*X instead!
Your argument is for set 2, etc./etc. I get that, but even then, there is still VIP, and there are still kickstarters playing drafts for free. Also, there are people winning. After 2 weeks of any set release, prices will drop considerably. If you are arguing about a 2 week price buffer every 4 months, I get it. If you are arguing for anything else, I don't get it. I'm with you man, big investment and I want there to be value, but I won't spit in the face of a gift horse, and I want to see this accessible to players with $60 budgets per year, that can still play competitively cause they have a 60%+ win-rate. Right now, even at half the price of MTG, that will be hard to achieve, but they are starting to take steps to get there.

Yoss
07-15-2014, 06:15 PM
Ok, I guess I just don't get this idea of my collection having "value". To me, the "value" of a collection is the decks I can build with it, what I can do with it in game. What's the purpose of a collection having a high plat value? So the account can be sold for cash later (if that's even allowed in the TOS)?

There will be ways to cash out Plat (not accounts, but most everything can be converted to Plat so who cares).

EDIT:
Nico, I think I've answered (and agreed?) with what you said there (post 26) back in posts 23 and 24.

Werlix
07-15-2014, 06:17 PM
There will be ways to cash out Plat (not accounts, but most everything can be converted to Plat so who cares).

Ah ok... so you want your collection to have value so you can get some monetary compensation when you quit the game?

Yoss
07-15-2014, 06:18 PM
Ah ok... so you want your collection to have value so you can get some monetary compensation when you quit the game?

Not me personally, but yes. I want people to be able to think of this just like a physical TCG in terms of value. If not, then this is just a video game and the pricing model is rather crazy.

Werlix
07-15-2014, 06:22 PM
Not me personally, but yes. I want people to be able to think of this just like a physical TCG in terms of value. If not, then this is just a video game and the pricing model is rather crazy.

Video game or not TCG pricing models are just crazy :)

But I love them so much that I'd play them even if everything I owned had $0 value :) But each to their own I suppose...

Tinfoil
07-15-2014, 06:46 PM
If we are battling economic arguments... wouldn't the value of a collection go up if more people played the game?

If Hex becomes more affordable, more people will play HEX
If more people play HEX a good collection will be more valuable

fitzle
07-15-2014, 07:06 PM
If it had been the plan all along, sure. A cheaper game is great for the (non-collector) customer. However, if they wanted people to have faith in the value of their digital goods, they just did themselves a huge disservice by axing values 20% seemingly at whim. It's Closed Beta, so perhaps not so horrible, but I sure hope they nail their pricing down hard before Open Beta.

Yoss, it's pretty obvious that HEX is not getting it's income from pack purchases, it's from selling plat. Plat is always going to be a requirement for tournaments. Those few folks who do 'go infinite' will sell their packs (cheap) to keep their plat costs down. The majority of players will buy packs in the AH and lots of plat from HEX in order to play. Sure the value of packs will not be that great, but why would HEX care about that when it comes to making money.

HEX is crunching the numbers and it's clearly showing that plat is being used for tournament entry fees and that's where their money is going to come from. Pack purchases in the store isn't going to make them the real money. Card rarity doesn't make them any money either. It's people spending lots of plat to play the game.

That seems like a perfectly reasonable business model from HEX's stand point. Why would you expect them to do different?

Chounard
07-15-2014, 10:17 PM
Very interesting list of decks that went 4-0. I'd love to see an automated list of the 4-0 and 3-1 decks on the website. (This is something that MTGO has, and it's an awesome tool for analyzing the metagame.)

Here's my list that went 4-0 in one of the free 128s. It's a creature heavy Blood Diamond deck. http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/deck=7753

Vomitlord
07-15-2014, 10:30 PM
Devaluing our packs and collections here. Booster price is now effectively 160p retail. If it was bad to buy packs in the Store before, now it's just plain stupid to do so! I guess it's better now than later to make such a drastic pricing change in the game, but I do not like it.

Another member of the million post club does not like something CZE has done, knock me down with a feather.

Why not publish an equation to tell just how much our precious jpegs have devalued.

Oh you already have:rolleyes:

Vorsa
07-15-2014, 11:58 PM
Good news, then. :D

Much appreciate the peek at constructed decks - tempted to try TheGunslingers mono wild, as I've not stuck with any of my wild decks (besides bunnies) and intrigued by the low shards + lower cost mix.


The picture in the article makes me wonder if Ancestor's Chosen got AA :)

I hope so - AA Ancestor's Chosen is looking rather dreamy... :o

Kroan
07-16-2014, 12:56 AM
Good news, then. :D

Much appreciate the peek at constructed decks - tempted to try TheGunslingers mono wild, as I've not stuck with any of my wild decks (besides bunnies) and intrigued by the low shards + lower cost mix.



I hope so - AA Ancestor's Chosen is looking rather dreamy... :o

It's not. The card is called Prophet of Wrenx and is from Set 2 most likely.

Selanius
07-16-2014, 12:59 AM
Very happy about the changes to the Competitive Constructed queue. Prizes are much closer to being in line with draft now. I think Yoss is the only unhappy one.

Unhurtable
07-16-2014, 04:06 AM
pretty fascinating that a 0 troop deck went undefeated.

Not really, with Extinction and removal running wild a deck with 0 troops essentially makes some decks play with half their cards. Factor in the large amount of removal in that deck and you almost got a 50% of cards (0 troops deck) vs 0% of cards (mixed deck). I have actually been planning a similar deck since I lost to a 4x AoD deck a week ago.


If it had been the plan all along, sure. A cheaper game is great for the (non-collector) customer. However, if they wanted people to have faith in the value of their digital goods, they just did themselves a huge disservice by axing values 20% seemingly at whim. It's Closed Beta, so perhaps not so horrible, but I sure hope they nail their pricing down hard before Open Beta.

How is a cheaper game not better for the collector?


There's a saying in economics: "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

This is kind of why I dislike economics. Its just not reliable in many cases.


If we are battling economic arguments... wouldn't the value of a collection go up if more people played the game?

If Hex becomes more affordable, more people will play HEX
If more people play HEX a good collection will be more valuable

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SHHHHHHHHH
Shhhhh....

mach
07-16-2014, 04:22 AM
Very happy about the changes to the Competitive Constructed queue. Prizes are much closer to being in line with draft now. I think Yoss is the only unhappy one.

I think this is a classic case of something which looks like a good deal for everyone but may have rather unfortunate side effects. The reason Constructed prizes sucked is because pack prices were so low. But if they increase the number of packs awarded then those extra packs will cause pack prices to drop even more, and we'll be back to square one.

Prodygi
07-16-2014, 04:43 AM
If we are battling economic arguments... wouldn't the value of a collection go up if more people played the game?

If Hex becomes more affordable, more people will play HEX
If more people play HEX a good collection will be more valuable

Hooray! +1. Like.

@Yoss.

You said the prices of cards in the AH will drop some time back. Didn't happen.
You said free boosters = devaluing of cards. Didn't happen. In fact, prices of cards rose.

BlackRoger
07-16-2014, 07:30 AM
I think this is a classic case of something which looks like a good deal for everyone but may have rather unfortunate side effects. The reason Constructed prizes sucked is because pack prices were so low. But if they increase the number of packs awarded then those extra packs will cause pack prices to drop even more, and we'll be back to square one.

The prices of set 1 packs is already very low because of how many of them are on the market, and that's unlikely to change.
The only reall effect will be on set 2 and forward, on which non of us have invested in yet.
I don't see what's bad in having the "real" set 2 value around 1.6 plat.
If CZE believes they can give us their product for cheaper and still be profitable then good for us and good on them.

malloc31
07-16-2014, 08:50 AM
For the people saying this de-values packs too much. You are not adding in the value of time and risk.

You are not guaranteed all the packs unless you fill the whole table with 8 of your own accounts, and that is completely cheating/ban-able, so you can not consider that as a normal practice.

Yoss
07-16-2014, 09:08 AM
@Yoss.

You said the prices of cards in the AH will drop some time back. Didn't happen.
You said free boosters = devaluing of cards. Didn't happen. In fact, prices of cards rose.

I continue to stand by that prediciton. It's been all of what, two weeks? three? since we got the AH? There are still hundreds of thousands of KS boosters out there waiting to be consumed and people are still working their playsets. Then again, CZE isn't telling us how many people are trickling in with new Beta invites, so that could also be adding unforseen demand to the system.

Prodygi
07-16-2014, 09:27 AM
@Yoss
If i'm not mistaken, you said give it a week for the prices to settle. (And clearly it's been over a week already)
Keep an open mind. Like you've said, there are alot of information that are unknown to us. And with those unknown variables in place, your predictions are simply guess work.
By logic, more packs = cards devalue. I agree. But what you fail to see is the "human" aspect of it.
Even if the cards does drop in value in the future, it might not be because of the reason you've stated. It might be due to Cze or set 2 or pve. But as of right now, your predictions are not right.

No offense, i'm not calling you out to pick a fight.

Vorsa
07-16-2014, 10:29 AM
It's not. The card is called Prophet of Wrenx and is from Set 2 most likely.

Ooh; thanks for the info. :cool:

Possibly not related to Ancestral Specters at all then, but it does make me realize that I have never considered the possibility of 'token' creatures recurring - though of course they very well could, and Battle Hoppers will likely be popping up for years to come.

Yoss
07-16-2014, 12:26 PM
your predictions are not right.

FWIW, the pack price prediction was almost dead on at 133p.


But as we often say where I work (engineering): "show me the data". Analysis is nice, but data is king.

Grissnap
07-17-2014, 01:01 AM
Ignoring all this Hexconomy talk to say thanks for changing the entry/prize structure! I actually got to play a constructed tournament today, and people were willing to join the queue. I even won some packs which surprised me since it was a competitive queue.

I'm hoping this weekend we might get some non-competitive constructed queues firing. I don't like the stress of worrying if I'm going to leave empty handed.