PDA

View Full Version : Bounced Soul Marble Retains counters



Errantsquire
08-28-2014, 04:03 AM
Just as the title states I bounced a soul marble and it retained all of it's counters when it was re-played.

http://youtu.be/2_nAj3FmiXc?t=5m31s

KingGabriel
08-28-2014, 04:19 AM
Ermm.. that's intended. Like how a dead hydra will still buff in the graveyard if the battle kills it.

ossuary
08-28-2014, 04:45 AM
Yeah, this is similar to how Living Totem still buffs itself once you put its ability on the chain, even if something else on the chain kills it first. Self-buffs apparently don't count as targeted abilities in Hex, so they resolve even if the "target" (source) changes zones. So if it's on the chain to put counters on the Soul Marble, it will get them no matter what you do, and if it leaves play and comes back, those counters will still be there. That's just part of the permanency of Hex's effects.

Warrender
08-28-2014, 05:20 AM
Counters are permanent on cards. Sorry, but it's working as intended.

Krond
08-28-2014, 07:57 AM
That behavior is intended, as war said.

In a digital game, the card can continue to be tracked regardless of the zone it is in, so there's no reason for Soul Marble to be 'reset' when it changes zones, even if you bounce in response to an activation.

AswanJaguar
08-28-2014, 10:26 AM
Forgive me if I'm being presumptuous Errantsquire, but having watched your constructed tournament video you put up on Youtube, are you instead referring to the fact that the Soul Marble had counters applied to it while it was in your opponent's hand?

Errantsquire's opponent had a Soul Marble with 5 counters on it in play. The opponent then activated the Soul Marble 6 times without passing priority first, adding 6 counter triggers to the chain. Errantsquire then Time Rippled the Soul Marble (with 5 counters) back to the opponent's hand. That resolved, and then the counter triggers all resolved. This should have resulted in those activations going to waste, but when the opponent replayed the Soul Marble on a later turn, it came into play with 11 counters on it.

We've been told that spells and abilities shouldn't be affecting cards that change zones unless they explicitly say they do. Most of these have been fixed but it appears the Soul Marble ability hasn't been corrected yet.

Krond
08-28-2014, 11:03 AM
We've been told that spells and abilities shouldn't be affecting cards that change zones unless they explicitly say they do. Most of these have been fixed but it appears the Soul Marble ability hasn't been corrected yet.

I was unaware of this. I believe you Jaguar, but is there a thread/article/video you can point me to?

ossuary
08-28-2014, 11:09 AM
Forgive me if I'm being presumptuous Errantsquire, but having watched your constructed tournament video you put up on Youtube, are you instead referring to the fact that the Soul Marble had counters applied to it while it was in your opponent's hand?

Errantsquire's opponent had a Soul Marble with 5 counters on it in play. The opponent then activated the Soul Marble 6 times without passing priority first, adding 6 counter triggers to the chain. Errantsquire then Time Rippled the Soul Marble (with 5 counters) back to the opponent's hand. That resolved, and then the counter triggers all resolved. This should have resulted in those activations going to waste, but when the opponent replayed the Soul Marble on a later turn, it came into play with 11 counters on it.

We've been told that spells and abilities shouldn't be affecting cards that change zones unless they explicitly say they do. Most of these have been fixed but it appears the Soul Marble ability hasn't been corrected yet.

See my response to this thread re: Living Totem.

Of course it's possible that this is a known (internally) bug and they just haven't told us about it, but cards that buff themselves aren't stopped by changing zones, because they aren't "targeting" anything. There is no check for legal target status before resolution, because there is no target.

AswanJaguar
08-28-2014, 12:11 PM
I was unaware of this. I believe you Jaguar, but is there a thread/article/video you can point me to?

I'll attempt to find the most recent reference to this. I could be mistaken.

Zurai
08-28-2014, 03:31 PM
Cards which make changes to themselves and only themselves don't care which zone they're in once the ability is on the chain. There's no target to disrupt; "this card" is still "this card" whichever zone it's in.

AswanJaguar
08-28-2014, 11:49 PM
Well I wasn't able to find exactly what I was looking for, but I did find this post from Shaggy (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=32143&p=336230&viewfull=1#post336230) earlier this year:

Actions targeting Troops
When a Troop is being targeted by an Action and that Troop no longer becomes a legal target. That Action will be interrupted because it no longer has a legal target. There are multiple ways for a Troop to no long be a legal Target; if it gains spell shield, is no longer in play to be targeted, or its card type changes to no longer become a Troop. For example if you target your Wild Child with Sapphire Aura and then it's targeted by Time Ripple and sent back to your hand. Sapphire Aura will not resolve because its target has been removed from play and is no longer a legal target. However, we are aware that sometimes your Wild Child will still be affected by Sapphire Aura and this is indeed a bug. This bug has been reported by QA and should be fixed in a future patch.

So I was correct about the spells, but I can't find anything that supports or denies it for abilities. Does anyone have a post that confirms that on-card abilities like Soul Marble are supposed to work in any zone once they are on the chain?

ossuary
08-29-2014, 04:49 AM
Again, the issue is whether or not the effect in question is targeting. If the ability is on the card being activated, as opposed to coming from another source, there is no target, therefore it cannot become an illegal target.

If there were a quick action that said "Add 2 counters to target card that can have counters," that could be made to fizzle by time rippling the target card. But a card adding counters to itself does not involve a target, so there is no way to make that event fizzle, regardless of zone changes.

Again, I will add the caveat that this is based on how we have seen all non-targeted cards to work. It is always possible that this is a bug, that CZE knows about, but hasn't bothered to inform us about it. However, ALL non-targeted cards currently work this way, so it's unlikely that it's a bug.

AswanJaguar
08-29-2014, 11:25 AM
Again, the issue is whether or not the effect in question is targeting. If the ability is on the card being activated, as opposed to coming from another source, there is no target, therefore it cannot become an illegal target.

If there were a quick action that said "Add 2 counters to target card that can have counters," that could be made to fizzle by time rippling the target card. But a card adding counters to itself does not involve a target, so there is no way to make that event fizzle, regardless of zone changes.

Again, I will add the caveat that this is based on how we have seen all non-targeted cards to work. It is always possible that this is a bug, that CZE knows about, but hasn't bothered to inform us about it. However, ALL non-targeted cards currently work this way, so it's unlikely that it's a bug.


If that's the case, why does Extinction not destroy troops that get bounced to your hand after it is cast but before it is resolved? Or Sorrow? I can't think of any troop abilities that affect all troops, unfortunately.

Krond
08-29-2014, 11:49 AM
If that's the case, why does Extinction not destroy troops that get bounced to your hand after it is cast but before it is resolved? Or Sorrow? I can't think of any troop abilities that affect all troops, unfortunately.

I don't think HEX lets you destroy cards that are not in play.

Incindium
08-29-2014, 11:53 AM
Because Extinction is a basic action that applies to troops in play. If you bounce your troop before it resolves the troop is no longer in play so Extinction doesn't apply to it. There is no problem with ossuary's explanation and how Extinction works.

ossuary
08-29-2014, 12:02 PM
When a card refers to "all troops" with no modifiers, that by default means in the warzone. That's why cards that target or affect things outside of the warzone use terms like "in all zones" (see: Incantations, Escalation cards, Technical Genius). If multiple legal locations are possible for a card and no modifier is used, the valid zone by default is the warzone. That's the explanation of targeting and zones straight from the devs (Alan in particular, in his really long bug report thread).

So with your Extinction example, the cards in play when it goes on the chain are vulnerable to it, and are on the chopping block, but the Extinction doesn't follow them to different zones, so if they leave play (like back to your hand) before it actually resolves, they don't get destroyed. Only troops that are actually in play when the effect resolves are hit by the effect, because the only zone Extinction affects is the warzone. If there were a card that said "For each troop in play, destroy all copies of that troop in all zones," that would be a completely different story (and a heinously deadly card!). :)

AswanJaguar
08-29-2014, 12:04 PM
Because Extinction is a basic action that applies to troops in play. If you bounce your troop before it resolves the troop is no longer in play so Extinction doesn't apply to it. There is no problem with ossuary's explanation and how Extinction works.

Soul Marble's activation is a quick action that applies to it while it's in play.

Regardless, I understand how Extinction works. It would seem that Soul Marble is one of the few exceptions to the rule that only cards in play are affected by spells and abilities. Given that it's an exception, there should be a piece of documentation or confirmation from a dev somewhere that notes this, shouldn't there? I haven't seen it as of yet.

Krond
08-29-2014, 12:08 PM
Soul Marble's activation is a quick action that applies to it while it's in play.

Regardless, I understand how Extinction works. It would seem that Soul Marble is one of the few exceptions to the rule that only cards in play are affected by spells and abilities. Given that it's an exception, there should be a piece of documentation or confirmation from a dev somewhere that notes this, shouldn't there? I haven't seen it as of yet.

You may only activate Soul Marble while it's in play, but there's nothing indicating that it's own ability requires it to still be in play for the ability for resolve.

This was mentioned somewhere else, but consider Genesis Hydra. It's ability requires it to be in play to go on the stack (like Soul Marble). But, if Hydra dies in combat, it's ability will trigger, Hydra goes to the yard, and then it's ability resolves even though it is no longer in play (again, like Soul Marble).

As with all things HEX, we have no comp rules to consult, so a lot of this is speculation. I'm not saying that my argument is 100% bullet proof, I just really think that Soul Marble is working correctly.

AswanJaguar
08-29-2014, 12:48 PM
As with all things HEX, we have no comp rules to consult, so a lot of this is speculation. I'm not saying that my argument is 100% bullet proof, I just really think that Soul Marble is working correctly.

Fair enough, I'm not overly concerned what the correct behaviour is, I just would like confirmation one way or the other.

Krond
08-29-2014, 01:48 PM
I just would like confirmation one way or the other.

That would be sweet indeed.