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geronimo
08-31-2014, 07:54 AM
Hi everyone,

I try to know how to report à toxic player. I just played against my first Hex Toxic player (i'm a mongol mokey .... he said :rolleyes: ).

I hope toxic-player-report-process exist here.

Thx in advance !

/I got a scrrenshot ;)

Kami
08-31-2014, 07:55 AM
Send it in to http://support.hextcg.com/

RobHaven
08-31-2014, 09:43 AM
Overall my experiences have been incredibly positive. Most people are happy to observe the customs (gl, hf, gg, etc) and often will chat casually. In fact, someone remaining silent is so infrequent for me that it really stands out when it happens. Silent is one thing, though, and toxic is another.

I've played about 60 drafts, a dozen sealed, a few big tournaments, and a dozen or so proving grounds battles...and never once did I experience a toxic player. It makes me sad to hear that they're making their way in.

poizonous
08-31-2014, 09:46 AM
Is Mongol Mokey (Assuming you mean monkey) even a toxic thing to say? what the hell does it even mean lol

Xenavire
08-31-2014, 10:04 AM
Is Mongol Mokey (Assuming you mean monkey) even a toxic thing to say? what the hell does it even mean lol

Depends on where you are from, obviously, and the intent with which it is said. For example, 'mongol' in Dutch is slightly offensive (I don't know exactly how offensive, since the main use of the word is in a show that is often stupid and offensive anyway) and used as a slur against handicapped or slow people (or that is my understanding).

I am sure a native Dutch person would do a much better job of explaining, but the fact is that one of those words is already offensive in a different language - it could be a far worse phrase in another. And above all, the intent is important. I could start going around calling people who pissed me off 'Hammers' - it wouldn't be directly offensive, but the intent would be clear. I think it is clear here that the player in question was calling OP names, offensive or not.

fido_one
08-31-2014, 10:07 AM
Is Mongol Mokey (Assuming you mean monkey) even a toxic thing to say? what the hell does it even mean lol

I can call you a wonderful human being and that can be toxic in the right context. It's all about the context...

poizonous
08-31-2014, 12:20 PM
Yeah but is it report worthy? I mean sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me... Doesnt anyone actually remember that?

Xenavire
08-31-2014, 12:25 PM
Yeah but is it report worthy? I mean sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me... Doesnt anyone actually remember that?

Considering the increase in the suicide rate, thanks to cyber bullying, and the increase in depression... Yeah, that saying doesn't actually hold water. It is all well and good for someone emotionally mature, but fair few adults and most children are absolutely not emotionally mature - meaning those words can have quite the negative impact.

As for whether or not it is worthy - any toxic player should be reported. The punishment (or lack thereof) is completely up to the support staff to determine. For us, if we want our good community to stay good, we need to use our judgement each time.

poizonous
08-31-2014, 12:27 PM
I guess your right Xena but man it makes me really hate the world we live in nowadays.

Xenavire
08-31-2014, 12:30 PM
I guess your right Xena but man it makes me really hate the world we live in nowadays.

Yeah, it gets me down too - I don't like reporting people. And you know what? I have only ever had to report one person so far, and that makes me feel a lot better.

At least, only one ingame, I do try to help keep the obvious trolls on the forums in check, like Yasi/OmarEpps etc.

saffamike
08-31-2014, 01:06 PM
I would regard the term used as offensive and I would add the person to my ignore list immediately. It's the equivalent of calling someone a retard which I would find offensive.

Not something I would expect from this community, but you get bad apples everywhere.

fido_one
08-31-2014, 02:13 PM
I would regard the term used as offensive and I would add the person to my ignore list immediately. It's the equivalent of calling someone a retard which I would find offensive.

Not something I would expect from this community, but you get bad apples everywhere.

I'm an offensive person so it's generally hypocritical of me to find offense in what other people say. But I'm with you saffa on this one. If I've ever seen someone fit the term 'retard' it's the people who defend using 'retard' as a derogatory term. Work with some special needs groups for a bit, get to know the kids/people, and *try* and continue using that word to put people down.

As always, it's context. There are ways you can use the term retard to comment on something, but you have to be careful - it's like calling something 'gay.' Saying 'you have a gay shirt' to explain a shirt which you think is stupid in my mind is pretty damn offensive. If you got a shirt with a picture of two guys kissing each other in front of a sequence/rainbow background, yeah, go ahead and call that a gay shirt.

ossuary
08-31-2014, 04:03 PM
My favorite shirt is the most totally G.A.Y. shirt I have ever owned (Got At Yardsale).

RanaDunes
09-01-2014, 04:29 AM
I hate people who feel self-righteous and trigger-happy reporting people for language more than rude people themselves, to be honest.

Calm your tits, Geronimo, and take it easy.

Xenavire
09-01-2014, 04:39 AM
I hate people who feel self-righteous and trigger-happy reporting people for language more than rude people themselves, to be honest.

Calm your tits, Geronimo, and take it easy.

It isn't just about being rude. You can say to me "Fucking resource screw!" and I would just nod and agree. But if you say "Fuck you, fucking dickhead" to me, you bet your ass I am reporting you.

Intent and context - it isn't "swear police" its "abuse police", if you get my meaning.

Counter
09-01-2014, 04:58 AM
Just type /ignore username and it works like a charm. I won't mention names but one of "top" players of this game went on a long tirade about how I don't know how to build decks and my deck makes no sense and I could never win a match, etc. This of course after I beat him and eventually won the final. This kind of behavior is completely uncalled for since I am mostly silent during match other than the occasion, "this is fun," "looks good for you, bad for me, etc." It really brought a bad taste to my mouth to experience such a toxic player even though I'd say roughly 99% of the players are nice. I told him I was sorry he was a sore loser and that the community is mostly good, that I was sorry he had a bad attitude, and I will be muting him.

Regarding the use of certain words, I can often tell the intelligence / maturity of a person by their use of language. Just go /ignore username. It works for me. Would I necessarily report, I don't because they spend money on the game same as me and they have a right to do whatever they like. However I can understand reporting bad behavior because if one player causes 10 others to not want to play or spend money on the game, then it damages business.

I think my mute list only has 10 players on it. Maybe 6 for spamming and 4 for bad behavior. But been playing this game for a year, so 10 on the mute list is really not many.

Xenavire
09-01-2014, 05:20 AM
Just type /ignore username and it works like a charm. I won't mention names but one of "top" players of this game went on a long tirade about how I don't know how to build decks and my deck makes no sense and I could never win a match, etc. This of course after I beat him and eventually won the final. This kind of behavior is completely uncalled for since I am mostly silent during match other than the occasion, "this is fun," "looks good for you, bad for me, etc." It really brought a bad taste to my mouth to experience such a toxic player even though I'd say roughly 99% of the players are nice. I told him I was sorry he was a sore loser and that the community is mostly good, that I was sorry he had a bad attitude, and I will be muting him.

Regarding the use of certain words, I can often tell the intelligence / maturity of a person by their use of language. Just go /ignore username. It works for me. Would I necessarily report, I don't because they spend money on the game same as me and they have a right to do whatever they like. However I can understand reporting bad behavior because if one player causes 10 others to not want to play or spend money on the game, then it damages business.

I think my mute list only has 10 players on it. Maybe 6 for spamming and 4 for bad behavior. But been playing this game for a year, so 10 on the mute list is really not many.

Yikes, I hope whoever that was chills out, because that behaviour isn't cool. The closest I ever got to that was someone trying to tell me how to build testing decks (and some of the advice was fine, but the attitude when he first started was not - you don't just say to someone in the proving grounds 'Why would you ran that horrible card?")

But still, I do think a lot of it has to do with competitive (spikes) not having a good attitude about being beaten by anything other than meta decks. It is a sad fact of most TCG's that the best players will go into shock if they are beaten by something they consider crap - it's rare that they overreact so badly though.

About the only time I have overreacted was to Inferno.. God I hate that card. That random...

RanaDunes
09-01-2014, 05:23 AM
It isn't just about being rude. You can say to me "Fucking resource screw!" and I would just nod and agree. But if you say "Fuck you, fucking dickhead" to me, you bet your ass I am reporting you.

Intent and context - it isn't "swear police" its "abuse police", if you get my meaning.

I want you to tell me "Fuck you, fucking dickhead." because that's how you feel. I can recognize you as an unstable person who can't conjure proper language to express frustration (imbecile) but you wouldn't bother me a bit and I definitely wouldn't waste my time reporting you and hence wouldn't waste the customer service department's time with this redundant crap.

But then again I'm a George Carlin fan and I don't believe in "bad language" at all.

Xenavire
09-01-2014, 05:36 AM
I want you to tell me "Fuck you, fucking dickhead." because that's how you feel. I can recognize you as an unstable person who can't conjure proper language to express frustration (imbecile) but you wouldn't bother me a bit and I definitely wouldn't waste my time reporting you and hence wouldn't waste the customer service department's time with this redundant crap.

But then again I'm a George Carlin fan and I don't believe in "bad language" at all.

I am pretty sure that when a toxic player is mentioned, the devs tend to tell us to go to support - sounds like they want to weed out the edge cases to me, but you are within your rights not to report people.

And it really isn't about bad language. It's about players verbally attacking other players. Thats not what gaming is about (despite what CoD etc players think) and it makes the game a lot less fun for all involved if people can just get away with it.

wolzarg
09-01-2014, 06:37 AM
Considering the increase in the suicide rate, thanks to cyber bullying, and the increase in depression... Yeah, that saying doesn't actually hold water. It is all well and good for someone emotionally mature, but fair few adults and most children are absolutely not emotionally mature - meaning those words can have quite the negative impact.

As for whether or not it is worthy - any toxic player should be reported. The punishment (or lack thereof) is completely up to the support staff to determine. For us, if we want our good community to stay good, we need to use our judgement each time.
From now on I'm so reporting everyone who says GL HF to me clearly they imply I'm an inferior player and will need lots of luck to beat them TOXIC!

Kroan
09-01-2014, 06:40 AM
Depends on where you are from, obviously, and the intent with which it is said. For example, 'mongol' in Dutch is slightly offensive (I don't know exactly how offensive, since the main use of the word is in a show that is often stupid and offensive anyway) and used as a slur against handicapped or slow people (or that is my understanding).

In most languages the slur "mongol(oid)" comes from the original name of down syndrom (DS). Basically you're saying that someone has a mental disability. I would rate it a bit more than "slightly offensive". It's also more wide spread than the tv show you're talking about in the netherlands.

wiki:

Due to his perception that children with Down syndrome shared facial similarities with those of Blumenbach's Mongolian race, Down used the term 'mongoloid'. While the term mongoloid (also mongolism or mongolian imbecility) continued to be used until the early 1970s, it is now considered unacceptable and is no longer in common use.

wolzarg
09-01-2014, 07:06 AM
Whats wrong with being called a mongol this guy looks decently badass to me.
2250

Patrigan
09-01-2014, 07:19 AM
As was pointed out, mongol refers to a mental disability. It is comparable to the use of the word "retard".

If CZE wants to kepe this community at a healthy level, they issue bans (or find another solution) to anyone who uses language like that.

RanaDunes, I have a thick skin, but I hope everyone reports even the slightest hint at toxicity and I hope CZE goes hard on such behaviour. This is not because I can't handle it, but because I hope that one day my children can play this game. I don't really need anyone calling my kid a mongol and I will respond hard towards anyone who does. I'll teach my kid to do exactly the same.

People who can't handle their peers with respect are the scum of the earth and frankly we can do without them. The least someone can do is respect another being, even if that person just beat you in a game or made a huge mistake that causes your team to lose or whatever. Everything begins and ends with respect and it's a thing that modern society seems to lack a bit too often.

fido_one
09-01-2014, 07:35 AM
We also have to remember we are a multi-national community, so some things get very skewed in the localization of things.

I think there are many of us here that think the same as Patrigan (a.k.a. have thick skin, but more interested in reporting people to keep the community lower on the douchebag scale). For those that aren't shy in asserting themselves, it's preferable to give the offending person a warning or ask them to provide better context before we contact support. I'm sure such a question will separate a faux pas from someone being intentionally malicious as the latter will probably go into hyper asshole mode once you say you found the comment offensive.

Patrigan
09-01-2014, 10:27 AM
We also have to remember we are a multi-national community, so some things get very skewed in the localization of things.

I think there are many of us here that think the same as Patrigan (a.k.a. have thick skin, but more interested in reporting people to keep the community lower on the douchebag scale). For those that aren't shy in asserting themselves, it's preferable to give the offending person a warning or ask them to provide better context before we contact support. I'm sure such a question will separate a faux pas from someone being intentionally malicious as the latter will probably go into hyper asshole mode once you say you found the comment offensive.

This is of course true, don't go swinging the banhammer based on assumptions alone. Always try to first verify if someone is actually intentionally malicious. It's all about intent.

However, even disregarding the mongol part, calling someone a monkey in a game is a clear sign of toxicity, whatever language your in.

sukebe
09-01-2014, 12:59 PM
It isn't just about being rude. You can say to me "Fucking resource screw!" and I would just nod and agree. But if you say "Fuck you, fucking dickhead" to me, you bet your ass I am reporting you.

Intent and context - it isn't "swear police" its "abuse police", if you get my meaning.

I do the same thing. I do not mind cursing, but insults are unacceptable. Even in physical card games, poor sportsmanship is a banning offense if you do it enough.

Like others here, I have a fairly thick skin and am not usually hurt by the insults. However, this kind of behavior is not acceptable in any reasonably mature group.

saffamike
09-01-2014, 01:13 PM
I swear like a sailor sometimes - my years living Dublin left their mark! Cursing is one thing, but it is not acceptable to harass or abuse another player. It's just not required.

fido_one
09-01-2014, 01:30 PM
I swear like a sailor sometimes - my years living Dublin left their mark! Cursing is one thing, but it is not acceptable to harass or abuse another player. It's just not required.

Ha! Yeah, living in Dublin made my propensity to swear like 30 times worse. Everyone who works with me at some point says 'my wife/husband hates you', and I'm like 'why?' and the answer is invariably 'because being around you I swear a lot more at home.'

I'm baaaaaaad - I let up for a bit living down in the south of the states, but being in Boston for a while upped the stakes again. These days I can't stop swearing no matter how much I try; even pops into [the few, the horrible] times when I have to speak to large groups of people.

If I turn it off completely now I stutter like you wouldn't believe - the few times I've taught classes I sound like Porky Pig as all of my brain power is focused on not dropping f-bombs.

saffamike
09-01-2014, 02:00 PM
Ha! Yeah, living in Dublin made my propensity to swear like 30 times worse. Everyone who works with me at some point says 'my wife/husband hates you', and I'm like 'why?' and the answer is invariably 'because being around you I swear a lot more at home.'

I'm baaaaaaad - I let up for a bit living down in the south of the states, but being in Boston for a while upped the stakes again. These days I can't stop swearing no matter how much I try; even pops into [the few, the horrible] times when I have to speak to large groups of people.

If I turn it off completely now I stutter like you wouldn't believe - the few times I've taught classes I sound like Porky Pig as all of my brain power is focused on not dropping f-bombs.

I can relate! I lived and worked in Dublin for 7 years, 6 of them as an accountant for a waste management company. Being around bin men sure does add to your vocabulary!

Superjuice
09-01-2014, 02:12 PM
As was pointed out, mongol refers to a mental disability. It is comparable to the use of the word "retard".

If CZE wants to kepe this community at a healthy level, they issue bans (or find another solution) to anyone who uses language like that.

RanaDunes, I have a thick skin, but I hope everyone reports even the slightest hint at toxicity and I hope CZE goes hard on such behaviour. This is not because I can't handle it, but because I hope that one day my children can play this game. I don't really need anyone calling my kid a mongol and I will respond hard towards anyone who does. I'll teach my kid to do exactly the same.

People who can't handle their peers with respect are the scum of the earth and frankly we can do without them. The least someone can do is respect another being, even if that person just beat you in a game or made a huge mistake that causes your team to lose or whatever. Everything begins and ends with respect and it's a thing that modern society seems to lack a bit too often.

Last time I checked, getting a bit heated in a HEX match did not make anyone "scum of the Earth". Maybe take a step back and turn your chat filter back on.

Xenavire
09-01-2014, 03:38 PM
In most languages the slur "mongol(oid)" comes from the original name of down syndrom (DS). Basically you're saying that someone has a mental disability. I would rate it a bit more than "slightly offensive". It's also more wide spread than the tv show you're talking about in the netherlands.

wiki:

Thanks Kroan, I knew someone would come along and explain it. Strangely, I never heard the shortened term, mongol, until I came to The Netherlands, but I had heard mongoloid very rarely, and never used as a slur against someone with down syndrome (oddly. I can't remember the source or the context, but it wasn't being used as a slur against a person who had down syndrome.)

That said, it was being used as a slur, but I guess I never thought that the two were related until this thread popped up. Learning all the time, and incidentally adding a word to the 'do not use as slur' list (not that I had ever used it before anyway.)

Banquetto
09-01-2014, 05:09 PM
Ha! Yeah, living in Dublin made my propensity to swear like 30 times worse. Everyone who works with me at some point says 'my wife/husband hates you', and I'm like 'why?' and the answer is invariably 'because being around you I swear a lot more at home.'

I spent a weekend on the west coast of Ireland and the only two words I could understand through the locals' accent were "feck" and "Jaysus!"

fido_one
09-01-2014, 05:22 PM
I spent a weekend on the west coast of Ireland and the only two words I could understand through the locals' accent were "feck" and "Jaysus!"

That's okay, it's really all you need to know to get around over there...

Patrigan
09-01-2014, 09:41 PM
Last time I checked, getting a bit heated in a HEX match did not make anyone "scum of the Earth". Maybe take a step back and turn your chat filter back on.

This is the world turned upside down, isn't it? You're asking me to take a step back and turn down the heat, when they are the actual problem? That's like saying to a raped woman: "Hey, you're the one dressing provocatively."

Stop being apologetic to people like this. I agree sometimes it just happens (although I have NEVER called anyone names during a game, even when they're being disrespectful.) But the fact of the matter, often it happens more than once, especially when others try to protect those actions.

And trust me, I'm not even heated at the moment. I was actually just being factual. Most wars currently happening in the world is because of a lack of respect for other human beings. It doesn't matter on what level you're being disrespectful, any form is the worst kind.

RanaDunes
09-01-2014, 10:04 PM
From now on I'm so reporting everyone who says GL HF to me clearly they imply I'm an inferior player and will need lots of luck to beat them TOXIC!

I've always found "glhf" insulting to be honest.
For one it sounds gibberish.. when someone types "glhf" I reply "fdjkfjs"
Second, are you too lazy to type "Good luck and have fun"? Just don't bother.
Third, why do you wish me good luck? that's just stupid and counter productive.

An appropriate greeting should be "Hey, bad luck and have fun!"

I am not 100% serious by the way.

Xtopher
09-01-2014, 10:13 PM
This is the world turned upside down, isn't it? You're asking me to take a step back and turn down the heat, when they are the actual problem? That's like saying to a raped woman: "Hey, you're the one dressing provocatively."

Great. We're comparing name-calling to rape. Now if only someone could make a comparison to Hitler or Nazis... sigh... if only.

poizonous
09-01-2014, 10:20 PM
Yeah because being called a retard is the same as a rape victim... Wow the over dramatic statement of the year right there. Congratulations sir you deserve a cookie. Seriously??? Come on this is the problem with the world, EVERYTHING is a huge deal nowadays, there are mute buttons and the simple use of closing the chat box if someone is hassling you. Not everything needs to be reported, didnt people go to kindergarten? Tattling is bad, I mean they even teach you this in South Park...

Patrigan
09-01-2014, 10:30 PM
I'm not comparing rape to name calling, read what I said.

I'm comparing the act of telling a victim (though I wasn't the victim in this case, but it's still done in the thread) that it's not entirely the fault of the accused. We don't condone such behaviour in the case of rape, so why would we condone such behaviour in the case of name calling?

Disrespecting someone is bad, no matter how you do it, no matter which way you turn it.

To be clear, there's a clear difference between name calling and cursing. You can say fuck all you like (although try to keep potential children in mind).

Gwaer
09-01-2014, 10:35 PM
I agree with patrigan on this one. Being harassed is not the fault of the person being harassed. Regardless of the form that harassment takes. Don't do it.

Counter
09-01-2014, 11:04 PM
Patrigan don't worry too much if any people are dissenting on this forum. Likely in a game like Hex, I've noticed the age of the players to be mostly older, at least it was in Alpha, early Beta. People who have kids and such now means they grew up in a different era than what we have today. When I was a kid playing Joust, Rampart, and Gauntlet at the arcade, I'd have to stand next to someone playing the game. Or playing at a friends house with a group of 5-6 of us playing Mario Kart, or better still 5-8 of us playing Axis and Allies, Monopoly, D&D, Warhammer tabletop, what have you, at a local comic store we were all in the same room and had to treat people with respect, even gasp, strangers we didn't know. And if there was ever a kid that "flipped the monopoly board over" for losing, you can sure bet we didn't invite him to play with us again.

Whenever I hear the "why don't you have thick skin?" makes me feel sorry for the people whom don't understand and respect for others. But this is not only a product of children, in referring to the US, we still have 30% of the population whom are in quite small rural communities isolated from exposure to other types of people. It greatly affects their world view.

My first experience with these kinds of toxic adolescent players of online gaming was in 2003. I got an Xbox and was looking forward to playing games online. Unfortunately to my dismay many of the players had a certain regional accent and started to make very inappropriate racist comments to be frankly honest I've never heard before or associated with such people. To this day I still remember the horror of hearing such stuff. The guy said, "Why can't N%%%% swim, because I have my boot on their neck."

And unfortunately even in Hex, I know players whom still make disparaging remarks against Jewish people or gays in regular conversation about Hex calling certain cards certain slurs. Some of our beloved community "top players" and casters continue to use this kind of language. As much as I like this game, it continues to make me sad we still have these kinds of people in the world. The sad thing is they don't know it's wrong because they are ignorant. As you likely know in a professional world if you want to be successful, this behavior is not tolerated.

Kroan
09-02-2014, 01:24 AM
This is the world turned upside down, isn't it? You're asking me to take a step back and turn down the heat, when they are the actual problem? That's like saying to a raped woman: "Hey, you're the one dressing provocatively. I'm sorry, I don't think you mean it that way.... but comparing someone having to listen to someone raging is not even remotely close to (a woman) being raped.... Please think about things next time you make these kind of statements (the same you expect from others apparently)

Edit: Oh I see others already responded on that as well, and you said you were not comparing those but actually you were if you read the part again. (You're actually doing it in your reply again...) Anyway, you didn't meant to compare those apparently so ignore my post.

DocX
09-02-2014, 04:57 AM
I believe Patrigan is saying "Don't blame the victim for the acts of the perpetrator."

Reporting abuse should be easier, but until there's a button in-client (or on the forums for that matter), support.hextcg.com is the answer. And simply /ignoring the abuser may work for you, but it lets them continue their abuse. You're essentially saying "Yeah, that person's an asshole, but as long as they're not an asshole to me it's fine." It implicitly condones that behavior being directed at the rest of the community.

Personally, if I saw someone throwing around slurs (racial, sexual, mental condition, etc) I report them. If this truly is to be the greatest community of gamers (as Cory keeps saying) the bad apples need to be called out; and their behavior condemned and punished.

Superjuice
09-02-2014, 07:16 AM
This is the world turned upside down, isn't it? You're asking me to take a step back and turn down the heat, when they are the actual problem? That's like saying to a raped woman: "Hey, you're the one dressing provocatively."

Stop being apologetic to people like this. I agree sometimes it just happens (although I have NEVER called anyone names during a game, even when they're being disrespectful.) But the fact of the matter, often it happens more than once, especially when others try to protect those actions.

And trust me, I'm not even heated at the moment. I was actually just being factual. Most wars currently happening in the world is because of a lack of respect for other human beings. It doesn't matter on what level you're being disrespectful, any form is the worst kind.

I think you should stop sensationalizing the isolated trolling/abuse by comparing it to rape and war, they do not equate.

As far as abusive players go, yes, people who perpetually act a fool should be punished, probably warned first, then suspended. I have yet to encounter anyone in 150+ drafts and countless constructed games that I would report, but I'm sure there are a few out there that fit the bill (probably still far from "scum of the earth" worthy, however).

Xenavire
09-02-2014, 07:19 AM
I think you should stop sensationalizing the isolated trolling/abuse by comparing it to rape and war, they do not equate.

Actually, considering people receive legitimate death threats sometimes, it is fairly close at times. Don't just ignore it.

That said, it is a little bit of hyperbole - but he wasn't trying to compare the two directly, he was trying to point out that you shouldn't victim blame.

Xtopher
09-02-2014, 07:20 AM
I believe Patrigan is saying "Don't blame the victim for the acts of the perpetrator."
I understood what he's trying to say, but advising someone to be responsible for their own happiness, in this case, is nothing like a rape victim being re-victimized by the justice system or society. Using rape (or Hitler) in that way is offensive, uncivilized, and histrionic.

The notion that being offended by Patrigan's statement is somehow condoning name-calling is ridiculous, so I won't address that point further.

Superjuice
09-02-2014, 07:36 AM
Actually, considering people receive legitimate death threats sometimes, it is fairly close at times. Don't just ignore it.

That said, it is a little bit of hyperbole - but he wasn't trying to compare the two directly, he was trying to point out that you shouldn't victim blame.

Of course he isn't making a direct comparison, that's not my point. He is sensationalizing by even assimilating the two in any way, no matter his intention. I'm not victim blaming, but calling people scum of the earth for acting like an asshole in a tcg is a bit excessive, we've all done/said stupid things, that doesn't automatically qualify anyone as the fecal matter of society. Again, not saying there aren't a few of them out there, but we clearly have vastly differentiating opinions on how we label people for acting out of step with our beliefs and/or societal "norms", if you will.

wolzarg
09-02-2014, 09:12 AM
Support is fairly good at picking up on people behaving poorly i for example have a warning for having used the words "fucker" and "scum" when a troll managed to get me riled up.

While i agree its not appropriate to insult anyone i would consider both of those curse words fairly mild and not double dipping in any way and it was still enough to get me a warning.

ossuary
09-02-2014, 09:25 AM
I find it slightly amusing that our society has reached a point where any iteration of "fuck" could be considered mild. :)

Patrigan
09-02-2014, 10:00 AM
I'm surprised my comparison to the blame of rape victims is met with such ferocity. Some of you clearly haven't seen the effects of cyber bullying.

Yes, rape is way worse than name calling, I'm not comparing rape to name-calling. Blaming the victim for the perpetrator's acts is the same anywhere. That is what I was pointing at. The intent is purely factual. We don't condone such behaviour with rape, so why would we anywhere else.This is a form of cyber bullying, feeling strong enough to be able to do what you want because you're protected by the anonimity of the internet. We should NEVER EVER condone such behaviour.

What's even worse is the dismissal of the name calling. You won't hear me say it's just as bad as rape, but it's still bad, very bad.

Is it sensational? Does that even matter? Toxicity is bad and any form of it should be dealt with. Honestly, I have never ever called someone a name during a match and I've had some really rough days where losing really felt like crap. I just can't imagine calling someone a name during such a moment. I'm worried some of you actually can, but therein perhaps lies the issue. We're so used to toxicity that some really just grew oblivious of it.

Wolzarg, even though I think cursing at yourself is not really a problem, I am happy HexEnt is actually taking the necessary steps to handle even that level of toxicity.

XTopher, my comment was primarily pointed at RanaDunes comment of calling reporting a toxic player "Redundant crap". And Superjuice's comment that I should take a step back and use my chat filter. That's basically a dismissal of the feeling that someone is toxic and a toxic comment in itself. For a victim of a toxic player that first sentence would make him feel helpless and as if it's his fault for not having a thicker skin. So yes, it IS comparable to victim blaming in any other case. You don't want rape? Let's use murder because someone cheated on his partner. Still too sensational? Then imagine I said anything else where victim blaming is present. I used rape victims because that's the most commonly known case of victim blaming. Sadly in our society, victim blaming is a little known problem, yet one with a very widespread appearance.

In conclusion: Luckily ingame I haven't noticed many issues.

poizonous
09-02-2014, 10:18 AM
Im sorry Patrigan, but name calling is not "Very bad" I mean cyber bullying is bad but if someone on the internet is going to commit suicide because someone called them a "Fucking retard" on the internet I guarantee that person had more problems outside of the internet. However there is usually nothing ever heard about it when something like this happens because the internet automatically gets the blame. I had 2 friends commit suicide and of course both those cases blamed the most easy thing to both of those cases meanwhile a bunch of our friends knew they were depressed for quite a while. Depression is a disease and a bullet in suicide cyber bullying is a trigger, it isnt the bullet

Patrigan
09-02-2014, 10:25 AM
Im sorry Patrigan, but name calling is not "Very bad" I mean cyber bullying is bad but if someone on the internet is going to commit suicide because someone called them a "Fucking retard" on the internet I guarantee that person had more problems outside of the internet. However there is usually nothing ever heard about it when something like this happens because the internet automatically gets the blame. I had 2 friends commit suicide and of course both those cases blamed the most easy thing to both of those cases meanwhile a bunch of our friends knew they were depressed for quite a while. Depression is a disease and a bullet in suicide cyber bullying is a trigger, it isnt the bullet

This is ridiculous. You're basically saying triggers like cyber bullying are ok? I've heard it all now... XTopher, you wanted a great unsensationalized example of victim blaming, you have one right here.

Yes, depression is a disease, I agree there. The fact they commited suicide is not because they were depressed, but because they were bullied. The depression only made them vulnerable to the cyber bullying. Guns don't kill people, those who control the TRIGGER do.

If everyone would treat eachother with respect, the world would be a better place to live in.

poizonous
09-02-2014, 10:37 AM
Where did I say Cyber Bullying is okay? I never said that, I said it was bad. But there is a huge difference from someone being called a retard and cyber bullying. You think they are one in the same but realistically they arent.

Xenavire
09-02-2014, 10:46 AM
Im sorry Patrigan, but name calling is not "Very bad" I mean cyber bullying is bad but if someone on the internet is going to commit suicide because someone called them a "Fucking retard" on the internet I guarantee that person had more problems outside of the internet. However there is usually nothing ever heard about it when something like this happens because the internet automatically gets the blame. I had 2 friends commit suicide and of course both those cases blamed the most easy thing to both of those cases meanwhile a bunch of our friends knew they were depressed for quite a while. Depression is a disease and a bullet in suicide cyber bullying is a trigger, it isnt the bullet

Actually, suicide rates in teens has been climbing (or so I hear, I don't always trust numbers I hear on the internet. :p) And the simple fact is that cyber bullying is easily more rampant than real bullying, because cyber bullying is very hard to stop. And the horrible fact is that even the ones being bullied go out and bully others, because they have an outlet to lash out through.

It is fine for the people who are emotionally secure and mature, and have the thick skin people all tell each other to have, but those who have already been depressed, or still are, are at great risk, as are those who do not know how to deal with their emotions. Children especially (and adults will victimise children as easily as they would adult due to the anonymity of the internet - you don't always realise that the person you are talking to is only 13.)

It is horrible, common, and hard to stop - so yes, we need to make a stand, before we are blindsided by the news of 'Teen commits suicide because of threats received via a popular dTCG." Luckily, we are worlds away from that scenario, but can we stay that way? I hope so, but doing nothing is not the most productive method.

Patrigan
09-02-2014, 10:48 AM
Where did I say Cyber Bullying is okay? I never said that, I said it was bad. But there is a huge difference from someone being called a retard and cyber bullying. You think they are one in the same but realistically they arent.

That's what you take away from my reply? Your comment on depressions was way worse than your ridiculous dismissal of name calling as a form of cyber bullying.

Luckily Xena managed to put my further thoughts on cyber bullying in good words. He might be better with words than I am.

Xenavire
09-02-2014, 10:51 AM
Where did I say Cyber Bullying is okay? I never said that, I said it was bad. But there is a huge difference from someone being called a retard and cyber bullying. You think they are one in the same but realistically they arent.

It depends entirely on the person at the receiving end of the insult. A person with down syndrome, or aspergers, etc, could very well be triggered by being called a retard. You might think you can casually throw out 'that was a retard move', but that can genuinely hurt someone. The good news is that most Hex players know better than that.

I feel like you do too, despite your stance on the matter (that one is less bad than the other.) We just need to have a clear understanding of what is acceptable, and I don't think that slurs to do with race, gender, nationality or disability, or sexual preferences, should be thrown around carelessly. It isn't even about being politically correct, it is just about being sensitive.



That's what you take away from my reply? Your comment on depressions was way worse than your ridiculous dismissal of name calling as a form of cyber bullying.

Luckily Xena managed to put my further thoughts on cyber bullying in good words. He might be better with words than I am.

Not always, more often than not I tend to put things the wrong way. :p It does help that I am a native English speaker who has been through depression, bullying, and have a minor disability - I can relate to just about every person who is hurt by slurs.

poizonous
09-02-2014, 10:53 AM
My dad has depression, my sister is a manic depressant, I have some depression but my overall point is that someone calling me names is not going to make me commit suicide. Name calling is possibly the least threatening thing known to man and some people are making it out to be this huge thing that realistically there are thousands of things I can think of as being worse

Xenavire
09-02-2014, 10:55 AM
My dad has depression, my sister is a manic depressant, I have some depression but my overall point is that someone calling me names is not going to make me commit suicide. Name calling is possibly the least threatening thing known to man and some people are making it out to be this huge thing that realistically there are thousands of things I can think of as being worse

Well, I can say right now, congratulations - you are emotionally mature, and more capable of dealing with abuse than a lot of young people. But keep in mind, not everyone is the same as you - I went through a period of feeling suicidal, a long time ago. I was depressed for about 8-10 years. And I was emotionally and physically bullied.

I know that I can deal with it now, but I was almost pushed over the edge as a kid.

nicosharp
09-02-2014, 11:10 AM
Darwin has a funny way of doing things.

It's important to learn life lessons and how to cope. What matters and what is meaningless. When you are being Catfished. How to spot warning signs in anything in life, including relationships.

The internet masks everyone's identity. Everyone has problems. Games have to integrate filters to help certain people cope. That's fine, just don't expect evolution or a higher consciousness to take place in society because of social inept.

Xenavire
09-02-2014, 11:20 AM
Darwin has a funny way of doing things.

It's important to learn life lessons and how to cope. What matters and what is meaningless. When you are being Catfished. How to spot warning signs in anything in life, including relationships.

The internet masks everyone's identity. Everyone has problems. Games have to integrate filters to help certain people cope. That's fine, just don't expect evolution or a higher consciousness to take place in society because of social inept.

Thats a good point Nico - natural selection does play a part. But children, at least, should have a few buffers, as should disabled people (because a lot of them are perpetually children, in terms of the mentally disabled people.) Adults, by and large, should have developed every skill to survive and shouldn't need the buffers, but we can still be a little more polite at times. :p (Myself included. Been a little coarse recently.)

wolzarg
09-02-2014, 11:26 AM
I find it slightly amusing that our society has reached a point where any iteration of "fuck" could be considered mild. :)

Because copulation is not really a curse word at all? I find it more amusing that fuck is even a curse word.

Gwaer
09-02-2014, 11:28 AM
This is all pretty irrelevant isn't it? Don't be a dick. DBAD. If you're being a dick you're wrong. There's no reason whatsoever to insult your opponent. It doesn't matter if your insult will kill them. Don't be a dick. Spitting on people you pass in the street won't kill them either. Not killing people is not a standard of appropriate behavior. DBAD.

Patrigan
09-02-2014, 11:35 AM
This is all pretty irrelevant isn't it? Don't be a dick. DBAD. If you're being a dick you're wrong. There's no reason whatsoever to insult your opponent. It doesn't matter if your insult will kill them. Don't be a dick. Spitting on people you pass in the street won't kill them either. Not killing people is not a standard of appropriate behavior. DBAD.

I read that acronym as BBAD as in "Be Bad". I was confused :p

Xtopher
09-02-2014, 11:59 AM
XTopher, you wanted a great unsensationalized example of victim blaming, you have one right here.
Patrigan, I'm not looking for examples of victim blaming, I understand the concept. What I'd like is to have discussions not trivialize rape, war, murder, Hitler, Nazis, etc. by comparing them to something that doesn't rise close to the level of any of those. I've had a close family member raped and murdered, my dad served in WWII in Europe. It's really asinine of anybody to use those terms trivially in a game forum. Actually there a number of words for it, but I narrowed in down to one.

poizonous
09-02-2014, 12:13 PM
Here is the real underlying issue...

How much can you punish a person because someone took offense to something he said? This could be a paying player who now owns products in this game. We cant realistically ban him from the game if he isn't cheating and suspending a guy for a week is not going to change his outlook and change the way he acts.

So what is a realistic punishment you are looking to give someone when the game has in game options to deal with people like him, a simple Mute or Block and the problem is solved. Reporting someone for bad manners really has no suitable punishment

nicosharp
09-02-2014, 12:16 PM
Someone's never played League of Legends..

Vegvisir
09-02-2014, 12:17 PM
Yes it does, banning them. If you don't like losing the money you spent on the game, don't insult people. If that hurts your feelings, then don't play Hex (Put it on mute).

poizonous
09-02-2014, 12:18 PM
@Nico if that is referring to me Im actually a Diamond 2 mid laner lol

But comparing a MOBA to a TCG is very different. MOBA's have the worst communities in the world

poizonous
09-02-2014, 12:22 PM
Yes it does, banning them. If you don't like losing the money you spent on the game, don't insult people. If that hurts your feelings, then don't play Hex (Put it on mute).

So going back to OP, Calling someone a Mongol Monkey is ban worthy? What if the person who said it had no idea Mongol meant retarded, hell even I didnt know that, so saying 2 randoms words and ending up insulting them leading to a ban is very overkill of a punishment

Point being, some people get insulted over the littlest things, that doesnt exactly deserve bans

Gwaer
09-02-2014, 12:33 PM
Context is clearly important. No one is saying put a button in the client that checks to see if your opponent said any of this list of words, then auto bans them forever. The situation should be reviewed by CS, first offenses should get warnings and they should escalate up to temp bans, then finally a permanent ban. MOBAS have the worst communities because that was allowed to build up as accepted culture. That's exactly what I want to avoid with dtcgs, tcg players aren't the most level headed individuals even irl. So on the internet there is definitely the potential for somewhat negative traits in the physical realm to turn into extremely negative and toxic communities in this ethereal one. So... DBAD

nicosharp
09-02-2014, 12:38 PM
Diamond 2.. haha. I quit that trash so long ago. I can't believe its still so popular. I agree with Gwaer.
Also Chat related bans in LOL were far more frequent than any bans related to trolling through feeding or mechanic abuse in game. It's always been primarily abusive and offensive chat that has gotten people banned until 2055 or something. I don't see why that shouldn't apply to a simple card game that wants to build an image of a community driven MMO. I could carealess personally, but I grew that thick skin 16 years ago when I played Starcraft online in 1998.

Zophie
09-02-2014, 12:43 PM
I agree with Gwaer. (that needs to be a t-shirt i think)

Don't support a culture of hate, we came here to play games and have fun.

Patrigan
09-02-2014, 12:51 PM
XTopher, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by raising up this concern. It was not my intention.

Yet I do stand by my initial point. I did not trivially throw it into the conversation and it was most certainly neither stupid nor foolish (definition of asinine, since I don't really think that was the word you really wanted to use).

Those acts grow out of disrespect for another human being. This thread has shown that disrespect in even a very lowly form is an accepted thing among many on the internet. Because that's what you do when you tell someone to just ignore it. You accept that it exists and are not willing to do something about it. This acceptance seems to only grow stronger and stronger and it's clear that the borders are being crossed. But society is taking a stand against the most grave forms of disrespect, while it should fix the root of the most lowly forms of disrespect.

Ah well, I give up. Why am I even defending myself here, when all I want is a game where people are capable of respecting eachother.

Xtopher
09-02-2014, 01:07 PM
Malicious name-calling is never okay. However, I think equating the message of what is essentially "be responsible for your own happiness" with any sort of acceptation of disrespect toward others is incorrect.

The objections this thread is facing stem from the fact that some people prefer to deal with the problem directly by muting or blocking the offending player (or just letting it roll off their backs) and others are insisting that there needs to be some sort of official action from CZE to deal with name-calling or, as someone said earlier, insults. Insults.... can you imagine if people were to start getting banned for insults?

"You really need to remove diamond cards from that deck. They don't seem to be working well with your other cards."

"What? You're implying I don't know how to build a deck? I'm insulted and reporting you!"

The chat should just be shut off completely if that were enough to trigger a ban.

Vegvisir
09-02-2014, 01:08 PM
So going back to OP, Calling someone a Mongol Monkey is ban worthy? What if the person who said it had no idea Mongol meant retarded, hell even I didnt know that, so saying 2 randoms words and ending up insulting them leading to a ban is very overkill of a punishment

Point being, some people get insulted over the littlest things, that doesnt exactly deserve bans

Yeah, if they are a repeat offender. Obviously I'm not saying you should be banned for being reported once. But if you are repetitively insulting and abusing other players then you do not deserve to be part of the community.
As many others have said, context is important. It's easy to tell if I'm saying something random, or if it's directed at the other person. If Mongol wasn't synonymous with down-syndrome, or you don't know that it is, calling someone a Mongol Monkey is still wrong.

Gwaer is right on, we need to build a community of friendly people. I vote we invest in a cloning machine, and clone Colin.

plaguedealer
09-02-2014, 01:13 PM
Lol has banned a few "pro players" for being toxic. I dont see why someone shouldn't get suspended then banned for hate speech.

Xtopher
09-02-2014, 01:13 PM
Gwaer is right on, we need to build a community of friendly people. I vote we invest in a cloning machine, and clone Colin.
And Gwaer, ossurary, and xen, as well.

poizonous
09-02-2014, 01:16 PM
Why do people automatically assume they are entitled to respect? Now I would never disrespect someone for nothing but people who feel entitled to respect worry me. Respect isnt an obligation it is a privilege and should be earned not just given for nothing.

Though that being said disrespect unprovoked is still wrong, but not everyone needs to go around treating everyone with respect

hex_colin
09-02-2014, 01:17 PM
I vote we invest in a cloning machine, and clone Colin.

Nnnnoooo! There are so many great people I've met through HEX. We don't need to be cloning me!

Vegvisir
09-02-2014, 01:22 PM
Why do people automatically assume they are entitled to respect? Now I would never disrespect someone for nothing but people who feel entitled to respect worry me. Respect isnt an obligation it is a privilege and should be earned not just given for nothing.

Though that being said disrespect unprovoked is still wrong, but not everyone needs to go around treating everyone with respect

You contradicted yourself there. Treating someone with basic respect = not disrespecting them.



Oh and Colin, it was purely for selfish reasons. I just want to take advantage of your (and your clones') generous spirit :D

Zophie
09-02-2014, 01:25 PM
And Gwaer, ossurary, and xen, as well.

I would also submit myself for cloning, as long as I get a few them for spare parts and other personal reasons... ;)

KingGabriel
09-02-2014, 01:25 PM
Nnnnoooo! There are so many great people I've met through HEX. We don't need to be cloning me!

Hey, at least I'm unique so can't be cloned. I'M A PRETTY PERFECT SNOWFLAKE! :D

Vegvisir
09-02-2014, 01:32 PM
Although, you CAN be replicated.

Xtopher
09-02-2014, 01:35 PM
I would also submit myself for cloning, as long as I get a few them for spare parts and other personal reasons... ;)
When you say "them" are you referring to your own clones or those of Colin, oss, gwaer, and Xen?

I typed "g" but the bottom got cut off and it looks like q. Adding another line fixed it, I guess.

Zophie
09-02-2014, 01:51 PM
When you say "them" are you referring to your own clones or those of Colin, oss, gwaer, and Xen?

I typed "g" but the bottom got cut off and it looks like q. Adding another line fixed it, I guess.

I meant clones of myself, but since you mention it, I'll take some of the others as well, GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL

KingGabriel
09-02-2014, 02:11 PM
Although, you CAN be replicated.
Pssh, robots can't climb stairs so we're safe... right?.. Righttt? :(

Xtopher
09-02-2014, 02:33 PM
Pssh, robots can't climb stairs so we're safe... right?.. Righttt? :(
Nice. That's the second Borderlands reference I've seen today on the forums. The first was "fecal matter.".

nyikhmur
09-02-2014, 02:53 PM
What is even cyber bullying? I m serious, i m quite baffled that ppl can get offended by being called names...I absolutely see how facebook or other social media could be used to make someone feel bad, but how is privately telling someone to go fuck himself etc. abuse? I m not advocating bad manners, i just find this overreaction way more obnoxious then the deed itself. Plus i find the notion that someone could get banned for calling others idiots a couple of times ridiculous...

Xenavire
09-02-2014, 02:55 PM
And Gwaer, ossurary, and xen, as well.

Wow, thanks for including me! I don't feel like I deserve it right now... Plus I think my clones would just get stubborn and fight each other. :D

Xtopher
09-02-2014, 04:08 PM
When I think about good or thought-provoking posts, it's the three of you I think of. Well, and myself :).

Shivdaddy
09-02-2014, 04:18 PM
Yeah but is it report worthy? I mean sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me... Doesnt anyone actually remember that?

I agree. I hope you get in trouble for wasting supports time with "mongol mokey."

ossuary
09-02-2014, 04:20 PM
Nice. That's the second Borderlands reference I've seen today on the forums. The first was "fecal matter.".

I want to believe it's a Robocop reference, personally, but I'm sure it can be both. I give higher points to older nostalgia. ;)

Xenavire
09-02-2014, 04:25 PM
I meant clones of myself, but since you mention it, I'll take some of the others as well, GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL

Not sure how I feel about that. Who knows what you have planned...

I mean, what if you force me to play soldier? I am a pacifist dammit!

sukebe
09-02-2014, 04:37 PM
So going back to OP, Calling someone a Mongol Monkey is ban worthy? What if the person who said it had no idea Mongol meant retarded, hell even I didnt know that, so saying 2 randoms words and ending up insulting them leading to a ban is very overkill of a punishment

Point being, some people get insulted over the littlest things, that doesnt exactly deserve bans

Not on the first offense, no. Everyone has bad days and sometimes that is wrongly taken out on others. Repeat offenses though? Absolutely a banning offense. If you cannot control yourself despite being warned by the company whos game you play then you are not someone I (and I am sure others) want in our community. If HexEnt really wants a good community, and I believe they do, then they will take action to remove cancerous members from that community before they spread.


Context is clearly important. No one is saying put a button in the client that checks to see if your opponent said any of this list of words, then auto bans them forever. The situation should be reviewed by CS, first offenses should get warnings and they should escalate up to temp bans, then finally a permanent ban. MOBAS have the worst communities because that was allowed to build up as accepted culture. That's exactly what I want to avoid with dtcgs, tcg players aren't the most level headed individuals even irl. So on the internet there is definitely the potential for somewhat negative traits in the physical realm to turn into extremely negative and toxic communities in this ethereal one. So... DBAD

Well said :-) The behavior you describe is exactly what kept me out of those games. I try to have a thick skin but I suffer from depression and must be constantly monitored to prevent suicide (doing better nowadays but still being monitored).

When a person is already depressed and wondering if their life is worth continuing small things can and do build up very quickly. I can tell there are many people here who simply do not understand what is like to feel like that (although some think they do, which makes it all the worse).

People who do not respect others deserve to lose whatever money they pumped into the game.

Would I ever commit suicide because someone on the internet hit me with a barrage of insults? No, probably not. It does chip away at my resolve every time it happens though and I, and people like me, need all the help we can get.


Why do people automatically assume they are entitled to respect? Now I would never disrespect someone for nothing but people who feel entitled to respect worry me. Respect isnt an obligation it is a privilege and should be earned not just given for nothing.

Though that being said disrespect unprovoked is still wrong, but not everyone needs to go around treating everyone with respect

This says a lot about you.

Everyone deserves at least a basic level of respect. People who feel otherwise are a major problem in every part of society. Unless they do something disrespectful to you, there is no reason not to treat them with basic respect. Even then, if you really have the "thick skin" people like you say you have then you should be able to shrug it off and not stoop down to their level.

What is basic respect? There are a lot of definitions but I would think they all include not throwing insults at them...

styk182
09-02-2014, 04:46 PM
Personally, I see two ideas of a "perfect world" stemming from this thread. One idea of a "perfect world" is that in a perfect world, people wouldn't get offended by every little thing and just grow some thick skin. The other idea of a "perfect world" is that in a perfect world, people would have at least a basic respect for others as human beings and not feel the need to hurl personal insults at each other for no reason. I suppose both ideas of perfection are totally viable but I'll leave it up to you to decide which one you would rather live in.

Werlix
09-02-2014, 04:47 PM
What is even cyber bullying? I m serious, i m quite baffled that ppl can get offended by being called names...I absolutely see how facebook or other social media could be used to make someone feel bad, but how is privately telling someone to go fuck himself etc. abuse? I m not advocating bad manners, i just find this overreaction way more obnoxious then the deed itself. Plus i find the notion that someone could get banned for calling others idiots a couple of times ridiculous...

Cyber bullying is just like regular bullying but on the internet. And yes it includes name calling. Just because it may not affect you doesn't mean it doesn't affect others negatively. I support muting/probating/banning people for repeated name calling. It's not a culture we want to encourage. There'a difference between saying "That was stupid" and "You are stupid".

poizonous
09-02-2014, 05:01 PM
@sukebe yes It honestly does say a lot about me, I was raised to earn respect and know that respect isn't something to be taken lightly. The hardest things to earn back in this world is trust and respect but the world nowadays is sadly overly entitled to everything and I just have my feelings about the issue from how I was raised. Does it make me a horrible person because I have no problems telling someone off? Not in my eyes because they have to do something to get that kind of treatment from me.

Xenavire
09-02-2014, 05:03 PM
Cyber bullying is just like regular bullying but on the internet. And yes it includes name calling. Just because it may not affect you doesn't mean it doesn't affect others negatively. I support muting/probating/banning people for repeated name calling. It's not a culture we want to encourage. There'a difference between saying "That was stupid" and "You are stupid".

You know, Werlix, the more you post, the more sad I am that you weren't around to be my friend as a kid. Most NZ'ers are not as enlightened as you are, and I have met them from all over. Why is it only the ones who quietly sit and play games who are nice? :p

Kami
09-02-2014, 05:12 PM
A twist on an old saying:

"It's my job to try to respect everyone. It is your job to give me something to respect."

nyikhmur
09-02-2014, 05:39 PM
Cyber bullying is just like regular bullying but on the internet. .

I still dont get how are the two in any way compareable, you cant avoid or ignore real life bullying, and i can easily imagine feeling horrendous having to deal with it. On the other hand if you get emotional over a stranger calling you names in text, which you have multiple ways of ignoring to begin with, you are just a joke and should not use the internet at all. I think most of the ppl who report others are doing it because that person wanted to hurt them, not becuse they get offended. Ofc there are extremes and there r ppl i would ban too(in theory, never met one), but I would be way more afraid of someone who s so emotionally unstable that he or she cant take a few fuckoffs.

Xenavire
09-02-2014, 05:47 PM
I still dont get how are the two in any way compareable, you cant avoid or ignore real life bullying, and i can easily imagine feeling horrendous having to deal with it. On the other hand if you get emotional over a stranger calling you names in text, which you have multiple ways of ignoring to begin with, you are just a joke and should not use the internet at all. I think most of the ppl who report others are doing it because that person wanted to hurt them, not becuse they get offended. Ofc there are extremes and there r ppl i would ban too(in theory, never met one), but I would be way more afraid of someone who s so emotionally unstable that he or she cant take a few fuckoffs.

Sometimes 'cyber bullying' isn't just about targeting the persons accounts - sometimes there are videos made, secretly, and spread around, etc. Those are extreme cases, but there are many more forms of cyber bullying than there are ways to bully face to face. And the different ways to bully compliment each other, adding up to embarrassing, humiliating torture. Some kids are so mortified that they can't even tell anyone, they just internalise it - where normal bullying (physical bullying) would usually leave telltale injuries...

It is nasty, and sometimes escape is not an option. Basically, bullies got smarter, and now the victims are more trapped than ever.

nyikhmur
09-02-2014, 06:03 PM
I m totally up for banning someone for posting a youtube video of me fucking 2 beautiful sheep in hex general chat :-) but dont do it just because someone is rude

Xenavire
09-02-2014, 06:05 PM
I m totally up for banning someone for posting a youtube video of me fucking 2 beautiful sheep in hex general chat :-) but dont do it just because someone is rude

... I am not even going to ask. :p

fido_one
09-02-2014, 06:11 PM
I still dont get how are the two in any way compareable, you cant avoid or ignore real life bullying, and i can easily imagine feeling horrendous having to deal with it. On the other hand if you get emotional over a stranger calling you names in text, which you have multiple ways of ignoring to begin with, you are just a joke and should not use the internet at all. I think most of the ppl who report others are doing it because that person wanted to hurt them, not becuse they get offended. Ofc there are extremes and there r ppl i would ban too(in theory, never met one), but I would be way more afraid of someone who s so emotionally unstable that he or she cant take a few fuckoffs.

Nyikhmur, maybe you're thinking of it from the wrong angle: you're trying to understand why the victim would take offense at something they could walk away from. Remove the victim from the equation for a second and think of the 'bully' in that you have someone whose intent is to be malicious and make someone else feel bad simply because they can. Doesn't matter if they're exploiting something that is illogical and baseless, the point is they've found some chord to make a person feel bad and are doing so to empower themselves. So you don't need to understand the logic or absence of logic of the victims as the intent and action from the oppressing person is enough to make it a very real thing in and of itself.

poizonous
09-02-2014, 06:28 PM
Fido I fully understand that angle also but the Bully is only successful if someone allows him to be. I dont know, just the way I see things I guess

Kami
09-02-2014, 06:40 PM
Fido I fully understand that angle also but the Bully is only successful if someone allows him to be. I dont know, just the way I see things I guess

You're coming from a position where you're assuming the one being mistreated can be emotionally grounded. If you're constantly bombarded by people telling you how much a piece of garbage you are, or if you're suffering from depression, or any other situation where you are mentally and/or emotionally compromised -- any type of personal attack can be devastating.

Eventually, you're just too worn out to ignore it. Also the reason why you have sayings like: "Oh, he was such a nice guy... and then he snapped." "He always seemed so happy, why did he kill himself?"

poizonous
09-02-2014, 06:48 PM
I guess Kami but that also leads back to my older comment about society, the newer age of kids are so sheltered and pampered now that they didnt learn how to grow up through some of the things that us older generations did.

I always say "The pussification of the world is slowly taking over" everyone gets trophies now even for last place participation ribbons are stupid, nig*er is a banned word for white people but blacks still say it so honestly if they dont stop saying it why should we, if the term is that derogatory to your past, you really shouldnt be saying it as a term of respect.

Schools in the U.S arent allowed to say the pledge of allegiance. Fun fact about that actually - While the pledge of allegiance was said in schools for all the years it was said there was only 1 school shooting ever. Since Columbine shooting there have been over 20 school shootings.

I know this rant is going a bit off topic but it just goes to prove why society changing is changing for the worse and younger kids will never have backbones

nyikhmur
09-02-2014, 07:13 PM
Nyikhmur, maybe you're thinking of it from the wrong angle: you're trying to understand why the victim would take offense at something they could walk away from. Remove the victim from the equation for a second and think of the 'bully' in that you have someone whose intent is to be malicious and make someone else feel bad simply because th, ey can. Doesn't matter if they're exploiting something that is illogical and baseless, the point is they've found some chord to make a person feel bad and are doing so to empower themselves. So you don't need to understand the logic or absence of logic of the victims as the intent and action from the oppressing person is enough to make it a very real thing in and of itself.

I dont say that its not obnoxious to even say something mild, like you lucky fucker, just that it shouldnt have consequences. In most cases jerks have 1 or 2 rude comments and thats it, not even to hurt, just to vent. If someone goes out of his way to try to hurt you, that deserves punishment, but i think that wouldbe like 5 percent of the cases tops.

ossuary
09-02-2014, 07:18 PM
poizonous, you're still looking at things from the point of view of someone who doesn't have a problem. People with emotional issues are sometimes not capable of digging themselves out of the hole their emotions and others' slurs put them in. It's easy to say "I wouldn't react that way," but you have to understand that not everybody functions the same way as you do.

My older brother killed himself about 10 years ago due to a deep depression that he was unable to overcome. It wasn't from bullying, but it still had a huge impact on my life, and I've done a lot of research into depression since then. My wife has also suffered from chronic depression her whole life, and even the smallest slight can send her careening out of emotional control. For some people, the depression is situational or environmental, but for others, it is caused by a chemical imbalance that they have absolutely no control over. Mental health is one of the areas we still know extremely little about compared to the other aspects of medicine in modern society.

I know you don't mean any offense by what you say, but the fact of the matter is that you don't understand depression (you've said so yourself), so you're not really qualified to comment on how depressed people do or do not deal with any particular issue. Since you know this is not an area you're well-versed in, maybe just stop suggesting that the problem is people don't have backbones or that people are just pampered and sheltered so never learned to cope? It's vastly more complicated than that, and to suggest otherwise is pretty dismissive. I say this with no disrespect.

sukebe
09-02-2014, 07:19 PM
I edited this to remove a post made in anger. sorry for posting it in the first place.

poizonous
09-02-2014, 07:21 PM
Actually Oss I said I suffer from mild depression and my dad and sister have manic/chronic depression but its okay I know what your saying

and @Sukebe I dont even know what to say to your post, no i am not a scientologist and how pray tell do you say I keep these things happening over and over.... I have said myself I dont treat people with disrespect, I just dont believe everyone is entitled to it. And saying im not Empathetic is even more false, just because I dont take pity in bullying does not mean I dont have Empathy, please I was bullied all through school till high school, guess what? I grew up and stood up for myself and now I am liked by many of the people who even bullied me.

But anyway back to the main issue, yes not everyone is as strong willed as others but the question at bay still remains is a ban from a game really the answer for someone getting their feelings hurt at a few names? Being around the SCG tournaments you hear stuff way worse, they dont give out bans in paper TCG's and if a DTCG wants to be so closely similar to a TCG than i dont believe it can ban people because as it says this game wants to hold value, you cant take someones collection and ban it from them

Gwaer
09-02-2014, 07:49 PM
Yes, that is the answer. If you can't not be a dick, then you don't deserve the privilege of interacting with people. Playing this card game is not a universal right, and abusing people while you play it is definitely not one. DBAD.

I still feel all of this bullying talk really just obfuscates the main point. If you can't win/lose without berating whoever you're playing against, you're a drain on this community, you drive away new players, you bring nothing valuable to the table. You do not earn a place at the table from acting that way.

Counter
09-02-2014, 08:05 PM
Like I previously mentioned some of us come from a generation where we actually interacted with people in person and learned to get along with others. This includes not throwing insults at strangers. Of course there are and were always people whom exhibit bad behavior. But with these kinds of people, one would disinvite them to future gatherings.

With online gaming, it's quite different. Bad behavior can ruin the enjoyment for other players. And players simply cannot disinvite the bad apples.

Hex is my favorite kind of game and I certainly hope to keep the community a great environment and as one guy mentioned, he'd like his kids to play it. And I agree, I hope the games lives and thrives. In contrast, in a game like Dota, the level of racism and ignorance exhibited by players via text chat and voice microphone, use of racist avatar and even racist names is enormously high. So high, I don't even play it anymore even though I think the game is an interesting one.

This problem is not isolated to the US, here in Korea, many young boys in their daily lives use foul language to an enormous degree. But it's not merely bad language, it's the intent to hurt others which can be done via curse words or not. I'm a university professor, so I have an enormous stake in educating young people to better themselves. Even the university students know that the behavior of children younger than them keeps getting worse and worse, I know because we talk about it in class. Students have told me that their younger siblings say such bad stuff to their parents that they themselves would never ever say.

It's the current world we live in and unfortunately, from reading this thread and from the few players I've muted both in game and forums bad behavior will exist in Hex as well. If I have to explain to someone why hurling insults as a stranger is not good form, not much else to say to them. They are either ignorant or trolls. Either way, best to just put them on mute. Unfortunately, they will still appear in forums if someone quotes them.

However, the vast majority of players on Hex, the 99%, have been great. It's not all bad or doom and gloom. I routinely ask a player in the finals of a draft or sometimes in proving grounds to chat with me on skype while we play. Met lots of nice people and have made friends this way. I'm a total geek when it comes to these kinds of games and it's wonderful to meet others like me. Unfortunately, as this game opens to the public I've noticed changes in the player base. Too frequently younger players coming from a different generation think bad behavior online is acceptable behavior.

But this problem is not merely online among youth in the US. A particular TV network makes all of their money by inviting guests to come on their shows to literally yell at each other. And they only invite only weak guests of one side to ridicule them on national TV. So young people now grow up seeing adults behave in unacceptable ways not knowing this network is the laughing stalk among educated professionals. And it's a problem since this is roughly 30% of the US population.

My dream would be to have Hex like the same experience as going to the local comic store when I was a kid to play tabletop games. But it's difficult online because the current generation of players did not grew up with this kind of experience; if their main experiences growing up gaming playing Dota, then they think racism is acceptable and if all their friends are doing it and they see it on TV, it must be okay, right?

But like I said, 99% of Hex is great and I hope to keep it that way.

Werlix
09-02-2014, 08:07 PM
You know, Werlix, the more you post, the more sad I am that you weren't around to be my friend as a kid. Most NZ'ers are not as enlightened as you are, and I have met them from all over. Why is it only the ones who quietly sit and play games who are nice? :p

Heh, all the feels :) <3

Werlix
09-02-2014, 08:09 PM
The generation after my generation is more disrespectful, irreverent and anti-social than my awesome generation.

Said every single generation throughout the history of mankind.

styk182
09-02-2014, 08:30 PM
Yes, that is the answer. If you can't not be a dick, then you don't deserve the privilege of interacting with people. Playing this card game is not a universal right, and abusing people while you play it is definitely not one. DBAD.

I still feel all of this bullying talk really just obfuscates the main point. If you can't win/lose without berating whoever you're playing against, you're a drain on this community, you drive away new players, you bring nothing valuable to the table. You do not earn a place at the table from acting that way.

/thread

sukebe
09-02-2014, 09:05 PM
Yes, that is the answer. If you can't not be a dick, then you don't deserve the privilege of interacting with people. Playing this card game is not a universal right, and abusing people while you play it is definitely not one. DBAD.

I still feel all of this bullying talk really just obfuscates the main point. If you can't win/lose without berating whoever you're playing against, you're a drain on this community, you drive away new players, you bring nothing valuable to the table. You do not earn a place at the table from acting that way.

Well said, I really wish these forums had a way for people to show they liked a post without posting as I am doing now. I realize it clutters things up a bit to do so but I feel that people deserve credit where credit is due :-)

This sums up the entire point of this thread.

Patrigan
09-02-2014, 09:06 PM
Yes, that is the answer. If you can't not be a dick, then you don't deserve the privilege of interacting with people. Playing this card game is not a universal right, and abusing people while you play it is definitely not one. DBAD.

I still feel all of this bullying talk really just obfuscates the main point. If you can't win/lose without berating whoever you're playing against, you're a drain on this community, you drive away new players, you bring nothing valuable to the table. You do not earn a place at the table from acting that way.

This.

Werlix
09-02-2014, 10:30 PM
Yes, that is the answer. If you can't not be a dick, then you don't deserve the privilege of interacting with people. Playing this card game is not a universal right, and abusing people while you play it is definitely not one. DBAD.

I still feel all of this bullying talk really just obfuscates the main point. If you can't win/lose without berating whoever you're playing against, you're a drain on this community, you drive away new players, you bring nothing valuable to the table. You do not earn a place at the table from acting that way.

Liked, +1d, upped

Banquetto
09-02-2014, 11:36 PM
Frankly, I just want to see people in an online game behave to a standard that would be considered acceptable in a sporting contest.

Where I come from, shouting abuse at members of the other team doesn't fly on the football field, and vile abuse like racist slurs will get you a lengthy suspension from the game.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 01:57 AM
Frankly, I just want to see people in an online game behave to a standard that would be considered acceptable in a sporting contest.

Where I come from, shouting abuse at members of the other team doesn't fly on the football field, and vile abuse like racist slurs will get you a lengthy suspension from the game.

Not to mention biting people is way out of line. (Yeah, yeah, digital, its a joke.)

KingGabriel
09-03-2014, 04:03 AM
Nice. That's the second Borderlands reference I've seen today on the forums. The first was "fecal matter.".

Well, that's actually a reference to another reference, its actually been re-referenced a few times.

nyikhmur
09-03-2014, 07:43 AM
If you can't not be a dick, then you don't deserve the privilege of interacting with people.

I would define being a dick by "not caring if you hurt the others feelings or not with what you say" and it should absolutely not qualify as abusing people, the only thing that bugs me is that it looks like to me that most of you dont make any kind of distinction between the two. Banning someone for bad manners is like sending someone to jail for smoking pot, or driving after drinking a whole beer.

Abusing imltho is if someone behaves repeatedly offensive, deliberately trying to hurt someone's feelings, thats another thing. Drawing the line between the two is not always easy, but I hope support will have the sense not to punish ppl for telling "fuck you man" a couple of times...

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 07:50 AM
I would define being a dick by "not caring if you hurt the others feelings or not with what you say" and it should absolutely not qualify as abusing people, the only thing that bugs me is that it looks like to me that most of you dont make any kind of distinction between the two. Banning someone for bad manners is like sending someone to jail for smoking pot, or driving after drinking a whole beer.

Abusing imltho is if someone behaves repeatedly offensive, deliberately trying to hurt someone's feelings, thats another thing. Drawing the line between the two is not always easy, but I hope support will have the sense not to punish ppl for telling "fuck you man" a couple of times...

Dude, there are actually laws against pot and drunk driving. And people have been sent to jail over both.

The fact is though, that dicks can be as bad as actual trolls at times - they shouldn't get a free pass just because they don't care/didn't mean to upset someone. They should simply know better, and going past a certain point should always, ALWAYS be bannable.

Assuming they never go past that point, then they should never even need to be reported. Simple as that.

nyikhmur
09-03-2014, 08:13 AM
Dude, there are actually laws against pot and drunk driving. And people have been sent to jail over both.

The fact is though, that dicks can be as bad as actual trolls at times - they shouldn't get a free pass just because they don't care/didn't mean to upset someone. They should simply know better, and going past a certain point should always, ALWAYS be bannable.

Assuming they never go past that point, then they should never even need to be reported. Simple as that.

Again, no sophistication, just zero tolerance against somethink you dont like...Driving after a beer is not drunk driving, smoking pot is against the law, but its a very light "crime", it should not be harshly punished. (it shouldnt be punished at all imo, but thats not the point here)

Its not as simple, thats my whole point.I think the definitions I gave above are sound basis on what should be punished and reported and what doesnt. I dont wanna be afraid to type "oh fuck you man, how can you maindeck that??" just because the opp might be a pussy and report me

Kami
09-03-2014, 08:18 AM
I dont wanna be afraid to type "oh fuck you man, how can you maindeck that??" just because the opp might be a pussy and report me

Um, what? Why would you be 'afraid' to type that?

Secondly, doesn't that imply that even you think it could be considered offensive? o.o

If so, why are you even considering typing it?

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 08:20 AM
Again, no sophistication, just zero tolerance against somethink you dont like...Driving after a beer is not drunk driving, smoking pot is against the law, but its a very light "crime", it should not be harshly punished. (it shouldnt be punished at all imo, but thats not the point here)

Its not as simple, thats my whole point.I think the definitions I gave above are sound basis on what should be punished and reported and what doesnt. I dont wanna be afraid to type "oh fuck you man, how can you maindeck that??" just because the opp might be a pussy and report me

Frankly, I don't care what comes after that, you would already be reported by me, not because it affects me, but because we both know you would end up saying it to some kid, or someone else that would be affected by it.

As for drunk driving? I know they have a blood alcohol test for it, but the idea is that you should never drink and drive - people just game the system to get away with stuff. But what happens when the person that games the system ends up getting a little carried away, and has three beers instead, then gets in a wreck that kills someone just because they weren't focused enough?

Thats why there is a line drawn, and it is why there is zero tolerance beyond that line.

You are the one who doesn't understand, not me. I am well aware there are dicks who won't cross that line, and they might frustrate me at times, I won't just go off the deep end and report them. You on the other hand seem to think that everyone should get a free pass to be a complete asshole.

nyikhmur
09-03-2014, 08:47 AM
Um, what? Why would you be 'afraid' to type that?

I would be afraid because I might get a warn/ban if I do. And yeah I think it can be considered offensive, I also think its absolutely bogus and ridiculous, but I m well aware there are ppl who find this offensive.
I might type it cause thats was the natural reaction I had and I dont wanna the hurt the opp , just dont give a flying toss if he/she gets offended by it.

ossuary
09-03-2014, 08:48 AM
Again, no sophistication, just zero tolerance against somethink you dont like...Driving after a beer is not drunk driving, smoking pot is against the law, but its a very light "crime", it should not be harshly punished. (it shouldnt be punished at all imo, but thats not the point here)

Its not as simple, thats my whole point.I think the definitions I gave above are sound basis on what should be punished and reported and what doesnt. I dont wanna be afraid to type "oh fuck you man, how can you maindeck that??" just because the opp might be a pussy and report me

You understand that there's a difference between banning someone for saying something once, and banning someone for being warned dozens of times to stop being an asshole, right? Nobody in this thread has even once suggested that there is or should be a zero tolerance policy. The entire premise of what you're talking about is flawed and inaccurate.

nyikhmur
09-03-2014, 08:57 AM
You understand that there's a difference between banning someone for saying something once, and banning someone for being warned dozens of times to stop being an asshole, right? Nobody in this thread has even once suggested that there is or should be a zero tolerance policy. The entire premise of what you're talking about is flawed and inaccurate.

It doesnt matter how many times someone does it,the example I gave shouldnt even be considered offensive...Xenavire just said he would report me for it.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 09:01 AM
You understand that there's a difference between banning someone for saying something once, and banning someone for being warned dozens of times to stop being an asshole, right? Nobody in this thread has even once suggested that there is or should be a zero tolerance policy. The entire premise of what you're talking about is flawed and inaccurate.

Exactly - a warning system, with a suspension/ban after X number of infractions.

Unlike botting, which I believe has been stated to be zero tolerance. Again, zero tolerance past a certain point (like botting), and warnings before bans for the rest. That is all that is being suggested here. Player behaviour does need to be monitored to an extent, and reporting players is the first step.

When in doubt, don't type that offensive thing you want to type - I mean, its a lot easier to just swear and rage at your PC screen and say 'Wow, that sucked for me.' in the game.


It doesnt matter how many times someone does it,the example I gave shouldnt even be considered offensive...Xenavire just said he would report me for it.


There is a difference between saying 'Fuck good play' and 'Fuck you.' And I would report you - a report is not equal to a ban. Learn when and where, and most importantly how, to vent your frustration. Verbally attacking someone is not acceptable.

nyikhmur
09-03-2014, 09:07 AM
Frankly, I don't care what comes after that, you would already be reported by me, not because it affects me, but because we both know you would end up saying it to some kid, or someone else that would be affected by it.


There is profanity filter for kids, plus if your child is emotionally sensitive you migth wanna consider letting him engage in situations like this. TCGs are almost gambling, lukc plays a big role in the short run, so ppl are prone to getting angry.

If an adult gets emotional over a simple fuck you, it should be considered an extreme case, and should not be taken seriously imo.

As for jerks, most ppl wont like them, and they ll probably get treated as such. Other then that, I do indeed think they should get a "free pass".

ossuary
09-03-2014, 09:13 AM
Fortunately, you are in the minority. Toxicity should never be tolerated, encouraged, or accepted.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 09:37 AM
There is profanity filter for kids, plus if your child is emotionally sensitive you migth wanna consider letting him engage in situations like this. TCGs are almost gambling, lukc plays a big role in the short run, so ppl are prone to getting angry.

If an adult gets emotional over a simple fuck you, it should be considered an extreme case, and should not be taken seriously imo.

As for jerks, most ppl wont like them, and they ll probably get treated as such. Other then that, I do indeed think they should get a "free pass".

You clearly missed the entire point of 90% of this threads discussion.

Quite frankly, there are a lot of depressed people who cannot handle even the lightest of insults without completely overreacting, and a well timed 'Fuck you' could easily put them over the edge toward self harm, spousal abuse, child abuse, etc etc etc. Some people are very volatile, and sadly we can't wrap them in emotional bubble wrap when they check into Hotel Hex.

Hence the need for measures like warnings and bans. And lets not get overboard with hyperbole - I have a depressed friend who refuses treatment, claims his meds that he doesn't take don't work, etc. I once lost my shit and told him to go fuck himself - he didn't speak to me for weeks and went behind my back to all my friends saying he was going to kill himself. And the kicker? I said 'If you don't get treatment, fuck off and leave me alone, I hate you when you are like this." Yeah, I, at my wits end with all his self pity and refusing to take advice from me, his closest friend, lost my temper, just once.

Now, imagine if every other game in Hex was like that?

Gwaer
09-03-2014, 09:42 AM
No, Xen, that really isn't the point. At least not my point. And a bit of profanity is fine, that's what a profanity filter is for. As I said earlier, context is important. You can't protect people from themselves, some number of people take basic things like saying 'good game' as an insult, because in the past in other communities it has been used as an insult. That's what I want to avoid. Toxic communities that can turn a basic statement of fact into a generally insulting statement.

Kami
09-03-2014, 09:44 AM
There is profanity filter for kids, plus if your child is emotionally sensitive you migth wanna consider letting him engage in situations like this. TCGs are almost gambling, lukc plays a big role in the short run, so ppl are prone to getting angry.

If an adult gets emotional over a simple fuck you, it should be considered an extreme case, and should not be taken seriously imo.

As for jerks, most ppl wont like them, and they ll probably get treated as such. Other then that, I do indeed think they should get a "free pass".

While I understand where you're coming from, I respectfully disagree.

That's a very apathetic stance to take. It's akin to:

"I should be able to do whatever I want and people should just deal with it."

That's a mindset that's borderline sociopathic.

It's like the paradox of war. You fight to have peace but you can't truly have peace unless the fighting stops. But by killing people who have loved ones in war, for example, you are breeding hatred and giving a cause for more fighting. You have to draw the line somewhere and the best line to draw it at is yourself.

We don't want a norm of accepting and/or tolerating dishonourable conduct. Obviously it's not possible to enforce entirely but every little bit helps and community awareness is what will set the bar.

In the past, others have brought up this question to think about:

"What kind of community do you want to be?"

DocX
09-03-2014, 09:45 AM
fortunately, you are in the minority. Toxicity should never be tolerated, encouraged, or accepted.

qft.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 09:49 AM
No, Xen, that really isn't the point. At least not my point. And a bit of profanity is fine, that's what a profanity filter is for. As I said earlier, context is important. You can't protect people from themselves, some number of people take basic things like saying 'good game' as an insult, because in the past in other communities it has been used as an insult. That's what I want to avoid. Toxic communities that can turn a basic statement of fact into a generally insulting statement.

I am not sure where I said I was against the language itself - I am all about intent. I don't know many depressed people that go off over a swear word, but tell them to fuck off and they flip their shit. (Sometimes to the point of self harm, which I have mentioned.)

I mean, would I be using so many examples myself if I was worried about the words? :p

Zophie
09-03-2014, 09:53 AM
I ran a very large casual guild in WoW that frequently hit the 1000 member cap, and our main rule was "Vulgarity expected, but don't be a dick" - We didn't care if people cursed every other word, as long as they respected each other and didn't use any sexist/racist/hate speech. Violation of this generally resulted in a swift /gkick, but most of our people were pretty cool and thankfully we didn't need to worry about this very often.

nyikhmur
09-03-2014, 09:57 AM
Quite frankly, there are a lot of depressed people who cannot handle even the lightest of insults without completely overreacting, and a well timed 'Fuck you' could easily put them over the edge toward self harm, spousal abuse, child abuse,


These ppl sound mentally ill to me, the last thing they should be doing is engaging in activities over the internet...

Now this is none of my business, but since you brought up the topic I think I can say smthg abou it :

Your friend sound like a real jerk. He was emotionally blackmailing you and you still search for the fault in yourself? I wouldnt blame you at all, had he really hurt himself.

Kami
09-03-2014, 10:07 AM
Woah...

Not cool man. That's crossing a line.

Please keep arguments impersonal please.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 10:08 AM
These ppl sound mentally ill to me, the last thing they should be doing is engaging in activities over the internet...

Now this is none of my business, but since you brought up the topic I think I can say smthg abou it :

Your friend sound like a real jerk. He was emotionally blackmailing you and you still search for the fault in yourself? I wouldnt blame you at all, had he really hurt himself.

Well, thats nice of you to say, but its partly my fault he is depressed in the first place - we met when we were about 10 years old, and were best friends for years. In fact, if not for me, he would have had no friends at all (the one friend he had before me moved a year or so after we first met, and he met all his other friends through me.) But when I met my fiancee, I moved halfway across the planet, and all of his other friends also left the city we lived in, leaving him at 20, completely alone except for his family.

In the 5 years since I left he has gotten to be far more emotionally unstable than I have ever known him, completely depressed, and he has literally no motivation left. Most people wouldn't notice the change (and most didn't, not even his family noticed until I emailed them saying that I thought he was suicidal and needed help) but I know that the downward spiral happened when I left, for good.

So yeah, I blame myself, no matter how shitty his life has been in other ways, because I was the only person who understood him and listened to him.



But yeah, depressed people probably shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the internet, yet that is often their only outlet. Severely depressed people often stop leaving the house for fun, meaning they inevitably end up spending hours a day on the internet.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 10:09 AM
Woah...

Not cool man. That's crossing a line.

Please keep arguments impersonal please.

Err, is that pointed at me? If so, sorry, won't bring it up again. :(

Gwaer
09-03-2014, 10:09 AM
The standard of will this cause someone who is emotionally unsound to do X. Is not a good standard. It really shouldn't be part of this conversation at all. It's impossible to predict how everyone will react to everything. Mental illnesses are a terrible thing. And a generally positive community will make this a fine game for a larger subset of people to enjoy. However, you did take a hard line on the language when you said you didn't care what followed the statement. For example, 'Fuck you, I wanted to come in and steamroll some noobs, but that was a great fucking game.' That crosses your hard line of any sentence that begins the same way, and though I'd never say that to a stranger, it's certainly not toxic. Context is important. Don't be a dick. Not don't put on kid gloves and hope you never offend anyone who may be primed and ready to take offense. Going too far toward over protectiveness for the sake of mental health just discourages social interaction as a whole. And the primary social aspect of this game will be chat as far as I can tell.

nyikhmur
09-03-2014, 10:15 AM
Woah...

Not cool man. That's crossing a line.

Please keep arguments impersonal please.

In case this is pointed at me for some reason I dont see, I honestly didnt mean to hurt anyone, I m actually enjoying the conversation.

Anyway, would you please tell us who said and what that you considered to be crossing the line?

poizonous
09-03-2014, 10:16 AM
Umm NY I believe Kami was referring to you talking about Xena's friend

Kami
09-03-2014, 10:19 AM
Err, is that pointed at me? If so, sorry, won't bring it up again. :(

That wasn't directed at you.

However, the intent applies in general.

Edit:
Umm NY I believe Kami was referring to you talking about Xena's friend

~=~

As for over-protectiveness goes, I don't think that's really the issue as far as the discussion goes.

It seems like a lot of common sense tends to go out the window when it comes to social interaction nowadays.

From my perspective, I can tolerate and even use vulgar language, but what point am I trying to make if I do?

The question that comes to mind is: "Is it necessary?"

Would you treat your boss the same way? Would you say the same kind of thing to someone in authority? Is it only fear of consequences that holds you back?

If so, I'd suggest some introspection as to why one would feel the need to act abrasive. I'm not looking for someone to coddle me but likewise, I'd rather not come to a place where the norm is I should just auto-ignore everyone because the few gems there are don't outshine the cesspool that becomes commonplace.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 10:20 AM
Umm NY I believe Kami was referring to you talking about Xena's friend

Well, to be frank, if that is what the warning was for - it was pretty accurate to say he is a jerk, and that is coming from me, the guys best friend. I mean, he is my best friend, but some days I want to punch him in the face and scream, because he refuses to help himself and I have to watch him destroy himself with junk food and self harm... I miss how he was when he was happy.

poizonous
09-03-2014, 10:22 AM
There is also the unique cases of people saying "Fuck you" When they have no cards in their hand and top deck the 1 card they needed. The other guy clearly pissed off says it and not meaning it in a derogatory way, I know I have been known to do that plenty and even on stream, did I say it to offend someone? no... should I get a warning for this? no.... will someone report me for it? Probably... this is my main issue with context... over the internet you cant know exactly how the person was implying it

fido_one
09-03-2014, 10:22 AM
Its not as simple, thats my whole point.I think the definitions I gave above are sound basis on what should be punished and reported and what doesnt. I dont wanna be afraid to type "oh fuck you man, how can you maindeck that??" just because the opp might be a pussy and report me

A couple of people already jumped on this, but wouldn't it be a bit more punchy and a lot more truthful if you said 'oh fuck me, how can you maindeck that??'

Though I would stress for those that said 'I'd report that' that if you would have said to Nyikhmur in that pretend dialogue either 'why did you have to attack me on that one?' or 'dude, that sort of thing isn't cool' you'd find out pretty quickly if it was his intent to be caustic or not.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 10:25 AM
There is also the unique cases of people saying "Fuck you" When they have no cards in their hand and top deck the 1 card they needed. The other guy clearly pissed off says it and not meaning it in a derogatory way, I know I have been known to do that plenty and even on stream, did I say it to offend someone? no... should I get a warning for this? no.... will someone report me for it? Probably... this is my main issue with context... over the internet you cant know exactly how the person was implying it

Well, alternatively, to avoid confusion, you can say 'Fuck me' as in 'Fuck me, that draw was perfect for that situation'. It doesn't ever have to be directed at the opponent, unless they are rubbing it in your face bigtime - which I find to be reasonably toxic too. There is such a thing as being a gracious winner. :p


A couple of people already jumped on this, but wouldn't it be a bit more punchy and a lot more truthful if you said 'oh fuck me, how can you maindeck that??'

Though I would stress for those that said 'I'd report that' that if you would have said to Nyikhmur in that pretend dialogue either 'why did you have to attack me on that one?' or 'dude, that sort of thing isn't cool' you'd find out pretty quickly if it was his intent to be caustic or not.

This is a good point, but there isn't always a chance to ask - I have had a few times where someone has said 'Fuck you' and conceded instantly. Better to err on the side of caution and report those people, and get the confusion cleared up later, than just assume the best in everyone and let all the toxic people get free passes.

Kami
09-03-2014, 10:31 AM
Or you know, you could just state it nicely so there's no confusion at all.

"Lucky draw! Good game."

Or:

"Bah, if only I drew X, I might've turned it around. Good game."

In both cases, the sentiment is carried across but as far as I can tell, neither is abrasive.

nyikhmur
09-03-2014, 10:32 AM
Well, I was talking about overprotectiveness at first, but the covnersation kinda escalated.

As for vulgarity I think it adds to the laguage, it can be done very uniquely and intuitively. Is it necessary? No, but I see no reason not to use it, and as I said I consider it a plus. Yes, stupid, shallow, unimaginative swearing is bad and makes you look unintelligent, but almost everything can be misused.

poizonous
09-03-2014, 10:33 AM
But to people like me who have a very small filter on words I find inappropriate, these kind of instances dont pop into my head and make me think someone might take offense to this.

fido_one
09-03-2014, 10:35 AM
This is a good point, but there isn't always a chance to ask - I have had a few times where someone has said 'Fuck you' and conceded instantly. Better to err on the side of caution and report those people, and get the confusion cleared up later, than just assume the best in everyone and let all the toxic people get free passes.

Totally agreed - if they don't give you the opportunity to find out their intent after saying something like that then you have every right to report them.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 10:38 AM
Or you know, you could just state it nicely so there's no confusion at all.

"Lucky draw! Good game."

Or:

"Bah, if only I drew X, I might've turned it around. Good game."

In both cases, the sentiment is carried across but as far as I can tell, neither is abrasive.

This is ideal, and how I handle 99% of games (even the best can't really claim a 100% success rate against frustration. :p) But we can at least suggest ideas to tone down the offensiveness and stop the attacks - some people will just curse, regardless. :p

Zophie
09-03-2014, 10:39 AM
When I play with my friends we have some quite vulgar yet friendly banter going usually, and we exchange "FU"s and the like in good fun and we don't take offense because we're comfortable with each other and we know we aren't really being dicks to each other. When playing with a stranger though I won't make such outwardly exclamatory remarks unless we got to know each other well enough first and were comfortable knowing not to take anything said too seriously. Even if I'm super frustrated at a losing game with strangers I'll still keep it polite and respectful, GLHF, GG, etc. I save the insults for my closest friends :)

Gwaer
09-03-2014, 10:40 AM
I can claim 100% success. I've never cursed at or insulted anyone in game. When I'm upset and frustrated I just don't say anything, rather than risk what I might say if I start talking.

nyikhmur
09-03-2014, 10:40 AM
Or you know, you could just state it nicely so there's no confusion at all.

"Lucky draw! Good game."

Or:

"Bah, if only I drew X, I might've turned it around. Good game."

In both cases, the sentiment is carried across but as far as I can tell, neither is abrasive.

I wouldnt write that, cause thats not the way I normally talk, and I dont wanna alter my behaviour because a minority of ppl would feel offended by that. If it will become widely accepted that a sarcastic fuck off is offensive, I would be extremely sad but will ultimately bend to the will of others. It might be cultural difference, but me and my friends constantly berate each other, even if I just met someone on friday night its toally accepted to be a bit of an ass without meaning any real harm.

Gwaer
09-03-2014, 10:44 AM
Nyikhmur, my friends are largely the same, however, in person there are other social ques, smiles, laughter, if someone is genuinely hurt by something you can tell and at least make moves later to smooth things over. Not so online, so language has to be tempered to account for the lack of other indications of what is going on.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 10:46 AM
I can claim 100% success. I've never cursed at or insulted anyone in game. When I'm upset and frustrated I just don't say anything, rather than risk what I might say if I start talking.

Gwaer for the second Exalted anyone? :p

But really, that is quite the achievement. I know, logically, I should be able to restrain myself, but there has been the rare moment that I lose my cool enough to swear. (Then again, my list of things I consider swears is very different from other peoples, so they may think I have closer to an 80% success rate instead. :p)

poizonous
09-03-2014, 10:47 AM
Gwaer as you just said, You cant tell what someone was implying online.... so is it really fair to just not saying anything and report them? Or ask them if the meant to be a dick about the situation???

Zophie
09-03-2014, 10:47 AM
I wouldnt write that, cause thats not the way I normally talk, and I dont wanna alter my behaviour because a minority of ppl would feel offended by that. If it will become widely accepted that a sarcastic fuck off is offensive, I would be extremely sad but will ultimately bend to the will of others. It might be cultural difference, but me and my friends constantly berate each other, even if I just met someone on friday night its toally accepted to be a bit of an ass without meaning any real harm.

That's because you and your friends have an understanding, that doesn't mean you can expect everyone else to also get on board with it and automatically know the intentions behind the text you type.

fido_one
09-03-2014, 10:49 AM
Like Gwaer I can claim success. Much as I swear and am a total jerk, I have yet to do a misstep in Hex, as I try and be very cognizant that my language and approach needs to stay amongst adults that are comfortable with it. That doesn't mean I will at some point mess up, but it won't be because I intend harm - when I'm in a foul mood the worst offense I perform is staying off chat.

I did get called out once from a CZE employee (before the Nobles existed) for calling another player a 'total asshole' but in my defense A) we thought we were on local chat and B) guy was/is a total, complete asshole. I know this because that guy is my brother, but he and I both agreed for once that it was really good that a CZE employee had the guts to come out and say 'don't do that, keep it cordial please' and that every other online game we know of that sort of correction probably wouldn't have happened.

Beyond the lively debate in this thread I'm pretty damn sure we'll be fine overall.

EDIT: If Gwaer was talking about 100% success on not swearing, than I can claim 100% failure on that front (I thought he was talking about not offending people in the game). Like other people have posted though, I can't live in a world where I can't swear, but I'll definitely not do it if I get any sort of vibe you don't feel that swearing is cool. (Seriously though, come on! It's totally cool!)

Gwaer
09-03-2014, 10:51 AM
As I have said repeatedly, context is important. If you just say fuck you, and concede. You have provided all available context, it is not my responsibility to privately message you and find out if you meant to be a dick. You have been a dick at that point. In other less clear cut scenarios' it's really up to customer service to read both sides of a converation. I think one option, like in the example of always reporting fuck you no matter what part of the solution may be forcing the reporting players profanity filter to be always on =/. However, people treading that line, that get multiple warnings and don't change their behavior will likely be banned eventually, and honestly I'm fine with that. If you're presented evidence that your actions are out of line, and cannot change them, that is pretty much the definition of a toxic player.

I say GG at the end of each and every game, even when testing with friends. If that somehow becomes a reportable offense, and I get a warning. I'll stop saying it. Such is the will of the collective.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 10:56 AM
Like Gwaer I can claim success. Much as I swear and am a total jerk, I have yet to do a misstep in Hex, as I try and be very cognizant that my language and approach needs to stay amongst adults that are comfortable with it. That doesn't mean I will at some point mess up, but it won't be because I intend harm - when I'm in a foul mood the worst offense I perform is staying off chat.

I did get called out once from a CZE employee (before the Nobles existed) for calling another player a 'total asshole' but in my defense A) we thought we were on local chat and B) guy was/is a total, complete asshole. I know this because that guy is my brother, but he and I both agreed for once that it was really good that a CZE employee had the guts to come out and say 'don't do that, keep it cordial please' and that every other online game we know of that sort of correction probably wouldn't have happened.

Beyond the lively debate in this thread I'm pretty damn sure we'll be fine overall.

EDIT: If Gwaer was talking about 100% success on not swearing, than I can claim 100% failure on that front (I thought he was talking about not offending people in the game). Like other people have posted though, I can't live in a world where I can't swear, but I'll definitely not do it if I get any sort of vibe you don't feel that swearing is cool. (Seriously though, come on! It's totally cool!)

Bah, its going to be years before I can safely call my little brother 'an asshole'. But he could technically do it to me already. Totally unfair haha.

But yeah, HexEnt/CZE are going to have some clear guidelines at some point about these things (or so I hope.) In the meantime, we just have to censor ourselves a little more often than we might like to. And really, it is never going to be a good idea to target your opponent.

Although, if raiding is as hard as I expect, people should feel free to completely blow their tops versus things like the Kraken. :p

Zophie
09-03-2014, 10:57 AM
The only time I've ever used vulgar language in Hex was privately to a couple close friends, and I think more likely it was actually done over Skype than in the client itself.

On the flip side, if someone was being abusive to me for some reason, I wouldn't antagonize them and dish anything back out to them, if they're a dick I'll just ignore them or possibly report them if it's that bad. I've avoided this so far, most people I play with are pretty cool and you can talk to me for like 1 minute and know right away I'm just here to have fun so generally that works out for me. Plus I lose a lot so people might be taking sympathy on me I dunno :)

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 10:59 AM
The only time I've ever used vulgar language in Hex was privately to a couple close friends, and I think more likely it was actually done over Skype than in the client itself.

On the flip side, if someone was being abusive to me for some reason, I wouldn't antagonize them and dish anything back out to them, if they're a dick I'll just ignore them or possibly report them if it's that bad. I've avoided this so far, most people I play with are pretty cool and you can talk to me for like 1 minute and know right away I'm just here to have fun so generally that works out for me. Plus I lose a lot so people might be taking sympathy on me I dunno :)

Yeah, you know something? Most of this discussion is mostly theory, since the number of cases of abuse and toxicity are incredibly low for an online game. Although KingGabriel really should stop teasing DreamLeaf... (Kidding! :p)

fido_one
09-03-2014, 11:02 AM
How about the other side of the coin? I am very careful of how I interact with people in game so I'm not worried about my own actions as being the instigator...

But... If I find my opponent is trying to be a total jerk/bully and I'm relatively sure of it (a.k.a. I'm like ' that's not cool' and he/she responds with more vitriol) I become a raging asshole. I don't react well to bullets I don't think are deserved. At all.

Which isn't a good thing as I end up reading the offending person the riot act which suddenly makes it impossible to report the person for the good of the community (as I will have gone to their level and probably responded to them by telling them to stick a variety of painful things up a cornucopia of orifices, etc.).

Zophie
09-03-2014, 11:04 AM
(as I will have gone to their level and probably responded to them by telling them to stick a variety of painful things up a cornucopia of orifices, etc.).

+1 for "cornucopia of orifices"

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 11:05 AM
How about the other side of the coin? I amvery careful of how I interact with people in game so I'm not worried about my own actions as being the instigator...

But... If I find my opponent is trying to be a total jerk/bully and I'm relatively sure of it (a.k.a. I'm like ' that's not cool' and he/she responds with more vitriol) I become a raging asshole. I don't react well to bullets I don't think are deserved. At all.

Which isn't a good thing as I end up reading the offending person the riot act which suddenly makes it impossible to report the person for the good of the community (as I will have gone to their level and probably responded to them by telling them to stick a variety of painful things up a cornucopia of orifices, etc.).

Yeah, thats a sticky one. In fact, if anything, you need to watch out that they don't report you (because we all know those kinds of people who think they have done nothing wrong, even when they are holding the smoking gun.) At best, you would both get a warning.

But if someone was really trying to push my buttons, I would simply close the chatbox and refuse to read anything, and if they started acting differently within the game (stalling intentionally, etc) then they would just be fueling the information for a report.

Gwaer
09-03-2014, 11:06 AM
I agree, the community is pretty much amazing, I've only ignored people because I get incredibly annoyed by capslock, and I've never reported, or even felt the need to report anyone. Really, these discussions just bring into public awareness what people expect out of the community, so when closed beta hits and we are inundated with general internet denizens people will not take that crap, ignore/report people that are dragging the community down, and try to be a positive place in general. Especially for new players. If you ever insult a new player you should be permabanned immediately. You're guaranteed to be doing more harm than you will ever do good. Each one of those new players could have been a new colin, or been friends with new colin, and you've potentially just deprived this game of their valuable.... input....

There will be a lot of people joining this game that have literally no idea how to play, and will make ridiculously terrible plays. Help them, or at the very least don't insult them, finish your game and move on.



But if someone was really trying to push my buttons, I would simply close the chatbox and refuse to read anything, and if they started acting differently within the game (stalling intentionally, etc) then they would just be fueling the information for a report.

Xenavire... We've all seen how you react when your buttons are pushed. =P

Zophie
09-03-2014, 11:12 AM
Yeah, thats a sticky one. In fact, if anything, you need to watch out that they don't report you (because we all know those kinds of people who think they have done nothing wrong, even when they are holding the smoking gun.) At best, you would both get a warning.

But if someone was really trying to push my buttons, I would simply close the chatbox and refuse to read anything, and if they started acting differently within the game (stalling intentionally, etc) then they would just be fueling the information for a report.

Exactly, if they're a toxic troll then engaging them and responding in kind doesn't really help anything. And you're absolutely right, it might also end up setting you up for a warning as well, I've seen it happen in other online games a lot.

fido_one
09-03-2014, 11:13 AM
Yeah, thats a sticky one. In fact, if anything, you need to watch out that they don't report you (because we all know those kinds of people who think they have done nothing wrong, even when they are holding the smoking gun.) At best, you would both get a warning.

But if someone was really trying to push my buttons, I would simply close the chatbox and refuse to read anything, and if they started acting differently within the game (stalling intentionally, etc) then they would just be fueling the information for a report.

Yeah, you're right Xen. This is a problem I have IRL that I've been working on for a long, long time. Can't walk away from a fight and I hate any sort of bullying behavior with the heat of a thousand suns. So much so that I forget the most damaging/smartest move can be to walk away and play the higher ground.

Wreaks havoc in my job but I see nothing but red when I come to a conclusion that someone is taking advantage of someone else because the other person can't properly defend themselves. (I believe that many 'management styles' that people advocate are a socially acceptable way of bullying people, but that's a different topic).

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 11:17 AM
I agree, the community is pretty much amazing, I've only ignored people because I get incredibly annoyed by capslock, and I've never reported, or even felt the need to report anyone. Really, these discussions just bring into public awareness what people expect out of the community, so when closed beta hits and we are inundated with general internet denizens people will not take that crap, ignore/report people that are dragging the community down, and try to be a positive place in general. Especially for new players. If you ever insult a new player you should be permabanned immediately. You're guaranteed to be doing more harm than you will ever do good. Each one of those new players could have been a new colin, or been friends with new colin, and you've potentially just deprived this game of their valuable.... input....

There will be a lot of people joining this game that have literally no idea how to play, and will make ridiculously terrible plays. Help them, or at the very least don't insult them, finish your game and move on.



Xenavire... We've all seen how you react when your buttons are pushed. =P

Yeah, I lose my cool more often than I would like here on the forums, but it attracts argumentative people like wasps to honey. And I am one of the top targets (obviously because I make the effort to get in early and 'put out fires', as well as having a high post count, and then all the people who know my history of posting and like to stir the pot...)

But all things considered, I have only once gone off the deep end in a thread, and that was when someone was being the worst kind of elitist and admitted it freely. I have lost my cool, sure, but I think that is the only time I have reached the level of anger that I would actually take a swing. I can talk a big game, so to speak, but I am actually a lot more collected than people give me credit for. :p

I just feel good that I have never reached blind rage online like I have had in real life - I get weird when I am that mad.

fido_one
09-03-2014, 11:20 AM
I just feel good that I have never reached blind rage online like I have had in real life - I get weird when I am that mad.

Wish I could say you are alone on that feeling but you are very much not.

Zophie
09-03-2014, 11:28 AM
Wish I could say you are alone on that feeling but you are very much not.

I try to live my life very positively and relaxed and not let stuff get to me ever but I definitely have some anger issues I've inherited from my father that I try very hard to overcome. I've done pretty well but I haven't been perfect so I think I know your feels :(

ossuary
09-03-2014, 11:28 AM
Can't walk away from a fight and I hate any sort of bullying behavior with the heat of a thousand suns.

What's the matter, McFly... you chicken?

;)

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 11:30 AM
Wish I could say you are alone on that feeling but you are very much not.

Yeah, that kind of mad... *shudder* I can count on one hand the number of times I have reached that point, and all of them were when I was depressed, and each time was very scary, looking back. I mean, I didn't physically lash out, but I was absolutely on the brink of losing all rational thought. If I ever reached that point, I feel that someone would be completely justified in shooting me for the safety of others.

ossuary
09-03-2014, 11:32 AM
That is also a state of mind commonly referred to as "having a nine year old daughter." ;)

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 11:33 AM
That is also a state of mind commonly referred to as "having a nine year old daughter." ;)

Having had a sister that age, I sympathise completely. They are the masters of button pushing. :p

fido_one
09-03-2014, 11:35 AM
What's the matter, McFly... you chicken?

;)

My God... never made that connection before and that makes my horrible fault sound SO MUCH MORE ROMANTIC. Need to watch that trilogy again to see how it all ends up!

fido_one
09-03-2014, 11:42 AM
*Sad Trombone Sound*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km6bFBSVty4

Oh yeah, that's how it ends up.

funktion
09-03-2014, 11:55 AM
If you feel like in order to have fun in a game you need to berate someone then I suggest you go play solitare.

This 1000x

Yes, that is the answer. If you can't not be a dick, then you don't deserve the privilege of interacting with people. Playing this card game is not a universal right, and abusing people while you play it is definitely not one. DBAD.

I still feel all of this bullying talk really just obfuscates the main point. If you can't win/lose without berating whoever you're playing against, you're a drain on this community, you drive away new players, you bring nothing valuable to the table. You do not earn a place at the table from acting that way.

I should say that once in Hex I've had an extremely toxic player drag me down with them. In that instance I deserve to be reported just as much as the other guy. If someone is being toxic to you, it isn't enough just to ignore them, report them as well. Otherwise you're just enabling them to continue acting out like that towards other people down the road, but don't fall into their trap if you're prone to doing that.

poizonous
09-03-2014, 11:58 AM
Okay new idea.... how about instead of banning him you just revoke his chat privileges?

ossuary
09-03-2014, 12:02 PM
Silencing a player's ability to talk to anyone entirely (a.k.a. "gagging") should be an option along the path, yes.

Xenavire
09-03-2014, 12:07 PM
Okay new idea.... how about instead of banning him you just revoke his chat privileges?

I could get behind that. Save bans for those abusing in other ways, and gag the potty mouths who decide it is their right to berate other players.

Gwaer
09-03-2014, 12:51 PM
Can it say 'I have acted like a bad person and am being punished, my chat privileges have been revoked. Good luck! Have fun!' Every time they join a new game?

Zophie
09-03-2014, 12:57 PM
Can it say 'I have acted like a bad person and am being punished, my chat privileges have been revoked. Good luck! Have fun!' Every time they join a new game?

Yes, should also say "Well played, GG" when the game ends, win or lose.

ovlovian
09-03-2014, 01:03 PM
I honestly just ignore them, drives them nuts. They want a response.

nyikhmur
09-03-2014, 07:13 PM
Okay new idea.... how about instead of banning him you just revoke his chat privileges?

Love this

wolzarg
09-04-2014, 06:20 AM
Or just give people an option to turn off chat i know i would

DocX
09-04-2014, 06:32 AM
I wouldnt write that, cause thats not the way I normally talk, and I dont wanna alter my behaviour because a minority of ppl would feel offended by that.

Just to point out, this is the very definition of selfishness. You do not want to alter something about yourself to accommodate or not offend others. If you don't mind being selfish, that's a way to live, but it's not very constructive for the community as a whole.


If it will become widely accepted that a sarcastic fuck off is offensive, I would be extremely sad but will ultimately bend to the will of others. It might be cultural difference, but me and my friends constantly berate each other, even if I just met someone on friday night its toally accepted to be a bit of an ass without meaning any real harm.

If you know someone personally, the rules are different. You have an agreed upon social contract. This is not the case with a random person you get matched up against in Hex. The expectation is you'll not berate them and act like a dick. If you violate that expectation, do not be surprised when you are reported. Also, don't be surprised when the player base remains small because of people who don't like to be berated when they're trying to have fun.

nyikhmur
09-04-2014, 07:45 AM
If you know someone personally, the rules are different. You have an agreed upon social contract. This is not the case with a random person you get matched up against in Hex. The expectation is you'll not berate them and act like a dick. If you violate that expectation, do not be surprised when you are reported. Also, don't be surprised when the player base remains small because of people who don't like to be berated when they're trying to have fun.

I just mentioned this on a sidenote, because ppl might have different reactions and expectations in Europe compared to the US, which is slightly related to what we are talking about.

Again if you think its selfish or rude, whatever, you have every right to dislike it, just dont report it, unless its over the top jerkness, cause the punishment doesnt fit the crime if someone gets banned for repeatedly calling players idiots. Btw I dont remember ever being rude to someone* and I dont intend to change that in the future, but the idea itself makes me feel like its 19 fuckin 84 .

*er i mean in Hex, not in general

Kami
09-04-2014, 07:56 AM
Again if you think its selfish or rude, whatever, you have every right to dislike it, just dont report it, unless its over the top jerkness, cause the punishment doesnt fit the crime if someone gets banned for repeatedly calling players idiots. Btw I dont remember ever being rude to someone and I dont intend to change that in the future, but the idea itself makes me feel like its 19 fuckin 84 .

It's their prerogative to report it if they wish, just as it's your prerogative to call players idiots repeatedly if you wish. Don't give people an excuse to report you. It's really that simple.

As for your 1984 comment, the flip-side is if players feel they are being mistreated, they should just take it? Silencing dissonance - I don't see how that's any better.

Edit: To add, there is a difference between Freedom of Speech and Consequence-Free Speech.

Also, as a fun read: http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2011/09/the-gentlemanly-art-of-the-insult - Now why can't trash talk be more like this nowadays?

nyikhmur
09-04-2014, 08:21 AM
As for your 1984 comment, the flip-side is if players feel they are being mistreated, they should just take it? Silencing dissonance - I don't see how that's any better.


I ve never said they shouldnt have the right to do that, I just thinks its quite lame and anyone who reports another for a bit of a jerkiness is very unsymphatetic in my eyes. The options I would encourage are either ignoring (just taking it if you wish, but I think if the person really meant harm, thats the best way of screwing with them) or a witty comeback if one pops into your head.

Kami
09-04-2014, 08:26 AM
I ve never said they shouldnt have the right to do that, I just thinks its quite lame and anyone who reports another for a bit of a jerkiness is very unsymphatetic in my eyes. The options I would encourage are either ignoring (just taking it if you wish, but I think if the person really meant harm, thats the best way of screwing with them) or a witty comeback if one pops into your head.

I understood what you meant, my point was that it's a two-way street. If a player is being a 'dick' to another player, we should feel sympathetic to the one being a 'dick' and not report? You can't have it both ways.

Ignoring the player is only a band-aid solution. How many people will that person affect after? How long should he be allowed to make the game less enjoyable for others? That is why you need consequences.

geronimo
09-04-2014, 08:33 AM
Hi dude,

i take it easy ;)

Just don't want to see toxic player on Hex like we can experiment in some others online game.
Digital games are about to be internationally recognized as a sport. I am of the opinion import up codes of conduct of the sports world (respect for the opponent and the practice of the person with whom you play).
To be very precise, my opponent party raged because I have mill his deck while controlling the board. i'm a mongol monkey, I can go flap flap (masturbate) ... etc
So yes, I am not upset, but I think it would be unfortunate to see this kind of people pollute the parties and discredit the current efforts to change the looks of outsiders to the world of gamers.

See you IG dude :)
~~Géro~~
/Sorry for my poor English

nyikhmur
09-04-2014, 08:42 AM
I understood what you meant, my point was that it's a two-way street. If a player is being a 'dick' to another player, we should feel sympathetic to the one being a 'dick' and not report? You can't have it both ways.

Ignoring the player is only a band-aid solution. How many people will that person affect after? How long should he be allowed to make the game less enjoyable for others? That is why you need consequences.

Now i m just nitpicking but why do you have to feel sympathetic to the player to not report it? You can wish seven shades of shit upon his head and still not report him/her :)

As for the second part I honestly think that there should be no consequences at all for being a bit rude, although I cant provide an exact line for what should be considered being "a bit rude" other then my own judgement. If there has to be a punishment, then banning someone from chat sounds great. I would only ban ppl who threaten others or advocate violence.

Xenavire
09-04-2014, 08:47 AM
The line, in the most basic sense, should be the minute you use a phrasing that implicates your opponent. "Screw you" and all variations of that should be the baseline for reports.

Saying shit and fuck about other things should be frowned on, but it should have people gathering their pitchforks.

nyikhmur
09-04-2014, 08:50 AM
[QUOTE=geronimo;408006]
To be very precise, my opponent party raged because I have mill his deck while controlling the board. i'm a mongol monkey, I can go flap flap (masturbate) ... etc
/QUOTE]

Actually that should ve felt so satisfying :)

nyikhmur
09-04-2014, 08:57 AM
The line, in the most basic sense, should be the minute you use a phrasing that implicates your opponent. "Screw you" and all variations of that should be the baseline for reports.


Jeebus...thats exactly the overprotective system I dont like and I would much rather let all the jerkiness go, then see ppl get reported for a screw you. For me the line is hatespeech or multiple lines of dumb, rage driven insults. The line I assume is different for everyone.

Xenavire
09-04-2014, 09:08 AM
It isn't about how mild it is - it is because it is an attack. You can say "Screw this" or "Screw that", no problem, "screw you" is targeting the player. If we want to be a good community that should never be allowed, or it will intevitably escalate to something like "Hey f*, I fucked your mom last night. Go fuck yourself you stupid n*."

We should never let it get that far, and you know the saying: 'Give them an inch, they take a mile'. It doesn't matter how nice we are now, someone will always try to push the boundaries.

(Sorry for the nasty example, but I don't know how else to make this crystal clear.)

Xenavire
09-04-2014, 09:28 AM
Fair enough Kami, I was doubting posting it all, honestly. Thanks for deciding what was too much.

seashell
09-04-2014, 10:26 AM
I totally agree with you. There has to be two nice comments for every insult (or whatever the ratio is).

Xtopher
09-04-2014, 01:04 PM
I honestly don't think CZE will take action against players for what they say, unless it involves hate speech -- racisim, LGBT slurs, nationalistic slurs, etc. Note that "Screw you" or even "Fuck you" doesn't even approach the threshold for hate speech.

Also, using the term "insult" to describe the debated infraction, really makes the argument for action laughable.

wolzarg
09-04-2014, 02:39 PM
I honestly don't think CZE will take action against players for what they say, unless it involves hate speech -- racisim, LGBT slurs, nationalistic slurs, etc. Note that "Screw you" or even "Fuck you" doesn't even approach the threshold for hate speech.

Also, using the term "insult" to describe the debated infraction, really makes the argument for action laughable.
Like i pointed out i got a warning for calling someone a "fucker" i can't recal the context so its possible it was something like you lucky fucker but could easily have been something worse since i do recal the person was trolling and baiting me and i was less than happy.

Not saying i was in the right to do so just pointing out "milder" insults in my personal opinion still bring on the same or similar punishment as harsher ones.

sukebe
09-04-2014, 05:33 PM
Jeebus...thats exactly the overprotective system I dont like and I would much rather let all the jerkiness go, then see ppl get reported for a screw you. For me the line is hatespeech or multiple lines of dumb, rage driven insults. The line I assume is different for everyone.

no one is saying people should be banned for one instance of being reported for this. If they are reported (and is verified that they are out of line) then they would get a warning. eventually, if you get enough such warnings then, and only then, would you be banned. I would even be fine with them getting a temp chat ban at first then getting upgraded to a complete ban if they can't be more mature and better behaved.

Poor sportsmanship is something that should be punished. Even in real life sports and card game tournaments this sort of behavior is heavily punished at the higher levels (well, at least in high level card tournaments, i'm not a sports fan so i'm going off what i have been told for sports). There is no reason it should not be punished in Hex as well.

Xtopher
09-04-2014, 10:30 PM
Like i pointed out i got a warning for calling someone a "fucker" i can't recal the context so its possible it was something like you lucky fucker but could easily have been something worse since i do recal the person was trolling and baiting me and i was less than happy.

Not saying i was in the right to do so just pointing out "milder" insults in my personal opinion still bring on the same or similar punishment as harsher ones.
That's interesting. I haven't been following the thread too closely so I didn't know that. I actually have no problem with CZE giving out warnings and bans for saying "fuck", just didn't think they'd do it since the forum has almost an anything goes policy with regard to language. My personal opinion is forum rules should mirror in-game rules and I'd be happier if the word was banned here as well.

sukebe
09-04-2014, 11:43 PM
That's interesting. I haven't been following the thread too closely so I didn't know that. I actually have no problem with CZE giving out warnings and bans for saying "fuck", just didn't think they'd do it since the forum has almost an anything goes policy with regard to language. My personal opinion is forum rules should mirror in-game rules and I'd be happier if the word was banned here as well.

I wouldnt mind either, though I am not particularly against the word itself. I have a problem with one of the 2 reasons words like that are used. The first being that a person is so upset/shocked/hurt that they cannot think of more descriptive words.

The second (and the one I dislike) is just mental laziness as the person cannot be bothered to think of a more descriptive/useful word. Anything that encourages mental laziness and isn't needed for work is bad as far as I am concerned.

wolzarg
09-05-2014, 12:22 AM
I wouldnt mind either, though I am not particularly against the word itself. I have a problem with one of the 2 reasons words like that are used. The first being that a person is so upset/shocked/hurt that they cannot think of more descriptive words.

The second (and the one I dislike) is just mental laziness as the person cannot be bothered to think of a more descriptive/useful word. Anything that encourages mental laziness and isn't needed for work is bad as far as I am concerned.
Better not call me mentaly lazy in game that hurts my feelings and warrants a report. :)

I have no problems calling someone a vile mother copulator instead of the other thing but generally that isn't going to get the desired effect for either of us.

Ps. i wouldn't call someone a vile mother copulator or the other thing even when i am in a mad ranting rage luckily i am mature enough for that at least.

DocX
09-05-2014, 04:57 AM
Again if you think its selfish or rude, whatever, you have every right to dislike it, just dont report it[...]

No. If you're rude and create a hostile play environment, you'll get reported. You, as the offender, don't get to make the call about whether your behavior is over the top or not. The person to whom you are subjecting your behavior gets to make that call. Period.

nyikhmur
09-05-2014, 05:44 AM
I wouldnt mind either, though I am not particularly against the word itself. I have a problem with one of the 2 reasons words like that are used. The first being that a person is so upset/shocked/hurt that they cannot think of more descriptive words.

The second (and the one I dislike) is just mental laziness as the person cannot be bothered to think of a more descriptive/useful word. Anything that encourages mental laziness and isn't needed for work is bad as far as I am concerned.

There is nothing objectively wrong with cursewords. Saying that they are inferior or lazy is simply not true. Any just what the hell do you mean by more useful words? :)

nyikhmur
09-05-2014, 05:48 AM
No. If you're rude and create a hostile play environment, you'll get reported. You, as the offender, don't get to make the call about whether your behavior is over the top or not. The person to whom you are subjecting your behavior gets to make that call. Period.

I m saying what I think ppl should be doing, ofc the joice is theirs. Hostile play enviroment? Cmon...btw I find ur pedantric style way more offensive and annoying then calling names would be.

Kami
09-05-2014, 05:53 AM
Food for thought.

“Swearing doesn’t make your argument valid; it just tells the other person you have lost your class and control.” ― Shannon L. Alder

“Vulgarity is like a fine wine: it should only be uncorked on a special occasion, and then only shared with the right group of people.” ― James Rozoff

“Swearing was invented as a compromise between running away and fighting.” ― Peter Finley Dunne

“See, the thing about that word, Sharkey, the F-word, is that sometimes I make that word do too much work. I mean, I say that word as if it clearly articulates what I’m really feeling. And it doesn’t. It’s a shortcut.” ― Benjamin Alire Sáenz, Last Night I Sang to the Monster

“I've never been given to casual use of vulgar language--unwarranted profanity implies mental laziness--but there's no other way to say this: a guy tries to fuck me ... well, fuck him.” ― James Carlos Blake, Handsome Harry: A Novel

nyikhmur
09-05-2014, 06:29 AM
I pretty much agree with everything pointed out in this vid, and disagree with the above quoatations, espec the first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_osQvkeNRM

Sry if u youtube links were not allowed for some reason, just delete this post.

Kami
09-05-2014, 06:44 AM
The issue with the video with Stephen Fry is that he is only making arguments as to why it's acceptable but not why it should be used.

If you want a more interesting debate on swearing: http://youtu.be/OKY6BGcx37k?t=35m22s (Yes, starting at 35m22s specifically).

nyikhmur
09-05-2014, 07:16 AM
The issue with the video with Stephen Fry is that he is only making arguments as to why it's acceptable but not why it should be used.

If you want a more interesting debate on swearing: http://youtu.be/OKY6BGcx37k?t=35m22s (Yes, starting at 35m22s specifically).

He sais it makes langueage more interesting and expressive.

DocX
09-05-2014, 10:48 AM
I m saying what I think ppl should be doing, ofc the joice is theirs.

And they should not be bullied or coerced or lobbied with "Hey, that's ok here. Why so serious?".


Hostile play enviroment? Cmon...btw I find ur pedantric style way more offensive and annoying then calling names would be.

And I find your inability to spell or use proper punctuation offensive and annoying as well, so I suppose we're even on that point, eh?

Zophie
09-05-2014, 10:54 AM
Food for thought.

“Swearing doesn’t make your argument valid; it just tells the other person you have lost your class and control.” ― Shannon L. Alder

“Vulgarity is like a fine wine: it should only be uncorked on a special occasion, and then only shared with the right group of people.” ― James Rozoff

“Swearing was invented as a compromise between running away and fighting.” ― Peter Finley Dunne

“See, the thing about that word, Sharkey, the F-word, is that sometimes I make that word do too much work. I mean, I say that word as if it clearly articulates what I’m really feeling. And it doesn’t. It’s a shortcut.” ― Benjamin Alire Sáenz, Last Night I Sang to the Monster

“I've never been given to casual use of vulgar language--unwarranted profanity implies mental laziness--but there's no other way to say this: a guy tries to fuck me ... well, fuck him.” ― James Carlos Blake, Handsome Harry: A Novel

I appreciate the thoughts behind these quotes, but frankly I just like to add seasoning to my speech by peppering it with some vulgarity from time to time, especially in a casual environment amongst friends. I grew up in a Navy family and my father literally "talked like a sailor" so it comes naturally to me. I of course refrain from this in more formal settings or when interacting with strangers for the most part, it depends on how well I can read the room and I'm usually good at determining what is appropriate at the time.

nyikhmur
09-05-2014, 12:09 PM
And they should not be bullied or coerced or lobbied with "Hey, that's ok here. Why so serious?".


Being insensitive to others feelings is not bullying or coercing. So yes, dont make a big deal out of it.



And I find your inability to spell or use proper punctuation offensive and annoying as well, so I suppose we're even on that point, eh?

Did I mistype smthg or you just talking about abbrevations like "ur"? English is not my mother lang. Any way how the fuck is that offensive? Deliberately choosing a condescending style can be legitimately found offensive, but this? :)

Gwaer
09-05-2014, 12:38 PM
Maybe he is just being insensitive to your feelings, and expressing himself in the way he is accustomed?

poizonous
09-05-2014, 12:45 PM
I kind of agree with something NY said. Being insensitive to someones feelings is not exactly bullying. Sure it is rude but to consider it bullying is a huge stretch

Gwaer
09-05-2014, 12:47 PM
In the example that literally just played out we can see how not taking others into consideration is negative even when not bullying, and the negativity is the issue, not just bullying.

nyikhmur
09-05-2014, 01:17 PM
Maybe he is just being insensitive to your feelings, and expressing himself in the way he is accustomed?

Indeed! He is doing the exact thing he said should not be tolerated. Pls ban him from space and time.

Zophie
09-05-2014, 01:31 PM
Pls ban him from space and time.

http://i.imgur.com/O835uSu.png

Tarquin
09-05-2014, 02:00 PM
Be sure to instantly ignore anyone who spouts profanity.
Don't support them

sukebe
09-05-2014, 02:01 PM
Better not call me mentaly lazy in game that hurts my feelings and warrants a report. :)

I have no problems calling someone a vile mother copulator instead of the other thing but generally that isn't going to get the desired effect for either of us.

Ps. i wouldn't call someone a vile mother copulator or the other thing even when i am in a mad ranting rage luckily i am mature enough for that at least.

lol, I wouldnt be calling you mentally lazy, just your use of vocabulary;) And you are welcome to call the person anything you want, just don't type it out:cool:


There is nothing objectively wrong with cursewords. Saying that they are inferior or lazy is simply not true. Any just what the hell do you mean by more useful words? :)

Actually, there is a lot of research that shows exactly what I said. I did a paper on it a couple of years ago so if I can find that paper I can give you the papers I referenced (though that is unlikely since I moved 2 times since then. it should not be hard to find, just use your google-fu :-) )


Food for thought.

“Swearing doesn’t make your argument valid; it just tells the other person you have lost your class and control.” ― Shannon L. Alder

“Vulgarity is like a fine wine: it should only be uncorked on a special occasion, and then only shared with the right group of people.” ― James Rozoff

“Swearing was invented as a compromise between running away and fighting.” ― Peter Finley Dunne

“See, the thing about that word, Sharkey, the F-word, is that sometimes I make that word do too much work. I mean, I say that word as if it clearly articulates what I’m really feeling. And it doesn’t. It’s a shortcut.” ― Benjamin Alire Sáenz, Last Night I Sang to the Monster

“I've never been given to casual use of vulgar language--unwarranted profanity implies mental laziness--but there's no other way to say this: a guy tries to fuck me ... well, fuck him.” ― James Carlos Blake, Handsome Harry: A Novel

well, those quotes articulate the issue far better than I could, great job digging them all up :-)


He sais it makes langueage more interesting and expressive.

I know that is what he says, but that does not make him right. most people who cuss up a storm do so because they do not how to better articulate their meanings. There are certainly times when cuss words are applicable and even times when they are the best words for the situation. most of the time though, other words would better describe a persons meaning.


I appreciate the thoughts behind these quotes, but frankly I just like to add seasoning to my speech by peppering it with some vulgarity from time to time, especially in a casual environment amongst friends. I grew up in a Navy family and my father literally "talked like a sailor" so it comes naturally to me. I of course refrain from this in more formal settings or when interacting with strangers for the most part, it depends on how well I can read the room and I'm usually good at determining what is appropriate at the time.

what you or anyone does when just among friends is not really what is being discussed. In fact, the whole debate on cussing is fairly off topic (i know i am guilty of keeping it going, sorry). Only one person is saying there should be no cussing. The rest of us (me included) are saying that while we are not usually big fans of cussing, we are not against it. We are just against insulting your opponent.

Again though, if you are playing a friend and you usually insult each other while playing there is no problem with doing that. It is only a problem when done with strangers :-)

Zophie
09-05-2014, 02:07 PM
what you or anyone does when just among friends is not really what is being discussed. In fact, the whole debate on cussing is fairly off topic (i know i am guilty of keeping it going, sorry). Only one person is saying there should be no cussing. The rest of us (me included) are saying that while we are not usually big fans of cussing, we are not against it. We are just against insulting your opponent.

Again though, if you are playing a friend and you usually insult each other while playing there is no problem with doing that. It is only a problem when done with strangers :-)

I totally get it, I was just commenting on the quotes mostly, I think we're still on the same page :)

ossuary
09-05-2014, 04:44 PM
I kind of agree with something NY said. Being insensitive to someones feelings is not exactly bullying. Sure it is rude but to consider it bullying is a huge stretch

If 1 person thinks it was detrimental to their experience, sure, chock it up to insensitivity / oversensitivity. But 100? 1,000? How many people need to be offended by someone before we admit that that person is having a detrimental effect on those around them, and the administrators (or a system built by the administrators) needs to step in and try to curb that negative behavior?

Again, we're not talking about some kind of auto-ban system or anything like that. Just that if someone repeatedly gets reported... maybe it's happening for a reason, and the person being reported needs to take their part of the ownership of that, and change the offending behavior? I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

As George Castanza would say, "We're living in a SOCIETY!!" *nerdrage*

poizonous
09-05-2014, 04:55 PM
Okay, here is a thought that hasnt been brought up yet. In a game where a player can make as many free accounts as they want, is this system we are talking about actually going to work? And how many players will be banned for no reason if a troll decides to take action on 1 person by reporting him on 10-20 different accounts?

Xenavire
09-05-2014, 04:59 PM
Okay, here is a thought that hasnt been brought up yet. In a game where a player can make as many free accounts as they want, is this system we are talking about actually going to work? And how many players will be banned for no reason if a troll decides to take action on 1 person by reporting him on 10-20 different accounts?

Sorry, but if we get any support systems that cannot detect that kind of obvious trolling, we are in a lot more trouble than just a few issues with persons insulting each other. :p

It would be a huge issue for the game, almost game destroying really.

Zophie
09-05-2014, 05:09 PM
Sorry, but if we get any support systems that cannot detect that kind of obvious trolling, we are in a lot more trouble than just a few issues with persons insulting each other. :p

It would be a huge issue for the game, almost game destroying really.

This occurred in Neverwinter at the initial launch, because they were F2P and had a system that automatically flagged people to be muted after a certain amount of reports came in on someone. But this was very quickly resolved by them turning down the automation and getting more Support staff manually reviewing the reports, and probably some other clever mechanics behind the scenes.

Luckily Hex isn't the first F2P game in the industry, and there are lots of other games that have gone through these kinds of pains and have come up with many different kinds of solutions already that the Hex devs can learn from on how to handle it. I don't know if there will ever be a perfect solution for dealing with all trolls/spammers, but I'm sure HexEnt/GameForge won't be going into this blind.

Mike411
09-05-2014, 08:22 PM
I got my first weirdo today. I dunno if we can post other people's names so I removed them. Screenshot below if you're curious about what was said. At least he lost badly, lol.

http://i.imgur.com/KMTu2cE.png

Zophie
09-05-2014, 08:28 PM
I got my first weirdo today. I dunno if we can post other people's names so I removed them. Screenshot below if you're curious about what was said.

You could report that, thank you for not naming and shaming

Patrigan
09-06-2014, 01:45 AM
Okay, here is a thought that hasnt been brought up yet. In a game where a player can make as many free accounts as they want, is this system we are talking about actually going to work? And how many players will be banned for no reason if a troll decides to take action on 1 person by reporting him on 10-20 different accounts?

I don't think this will be as much an issue. Unlike other games, this game has an actual collection component. Getting your account banned means you have nothing left of everything you invested.

You can say "yes but basic PvE stuff is regained quickly." Then I answer: but people don't play PvE with each other. Of course, there is raiding, but again, building up to raiding capabilities takes a while.

In conclusion: I see no issue to take a pretty hard stance towards toxic members of the community. I won't comment on the swearing, I think that's a grey zone and I'll let CZE decide on that. However, as soon as you are pointing your language towards your opponent, then they have all the right to report you and CZE has more than all the right to ban you.

Banquetto
09-06-2014, 02:54 AM
I got my first weirdo today. I dunno if we can post other people's names so I removed them. Screenshot below if you're curious about what was said. At least he lost badly, lol.

See, if I was a GM, that would be a permaban unless you got me in an extraordinarily mellow mood. Then you might only get a one-week ban and your account flagged for instant permaban next offence.

nyikhmur
09-06-2014, 05:48 AM
I got my first weirdo today. I dunno if we can post other people's names so I removed them. Screenshot below if you're curious about what was said. At least he lost badly, lol.



Did you get offended by that? The guy made such a fool of himself...

Mike411
09-06-2014, 06:02 AM
Did you get offended by that? The guy made such a fool of himself...

I didn't, but if he did that to everyone he would probably come upon someone who would be offended. I dunno what the Hex staffers would want to happen in that situation, so I just left it alone.

DocX
09-06-2014, 07:33 AM
Did you get offended by that? The guy made such a fool of himself...

They were using typical rapist verbiage and you think they're making a fool of themselves? I agree with Banquetto that it should be a permaban. I also think this should never be acceptable in Hex.

nyikhmur
09-06-2014, 08:37 AM
They were using typical rapist verbiage and you think they're making a fool of themselves? I agree with Banquetto that it should be a permaban. I also think this should never be acceptable in Hex.

Yes, what he did was a pathetic rambling, he deserves to be laughed at and ridiculed. Perma banning is insane, you guys honestly frighten me.

Gwaer
09-06-2014, 08:51 AM
What he did is a serious rape trigger. It's ridiculous to me that you think that doesn't deserve warnings and then a ban if those warnings don't take.

Xenavire
09-06-2014, 09:03 AM
Yes, what he did was a pathetic rambling, he deserves to be laughed at and ridiculed. Perma banning is insane, you guys honestly frighten me.

Tell that to the women with PTSD, who have nightmares regularly involving phrases eerily similar to that.

In short, that player is A) immature and doesn't understand the impact of those words, or B) a raving psychopath who shouldn't be allowed near the general population.

KingGabriel
09-06-2014, 09:03 AM
I'd probably skip the warning and move on to the ban really in that situation.

nyikhmur
09-06-2014, 09:05 AM
I didnt say he doesnt deserve a warning for that. I personally wouldnt report him, but he is clearly an idiot and he meant to hurt, so I dont feel its unreasonable to give him a warning. Serious rape trigger? I dont even know what does that mean but I m sure its bogus.

Xenavire
09-06-2014, 09:06 AM
I didnt say he doesnt deserve a warning for that. I personally wouldnt report him, but he is clearly an idiot and he meant to hurt, so I dont feel its unreasonable to give him a warning. Serious rape trigger? I dont even know what does that mean but I m sure its bogus.

See my post (since I think by the timing you probably missed it.)

And yes, at the least he needs a warning. A second offense, that bad, should probably be a ban. I would hate to see someone negatively affected by something said so carelessly.

nyikhmur
09-06-2014, 09:13 AM
Tell that to the women with PTSD, who have nightmares regularly involving phrases eerily similar to that.


What does that have to do with this??? Because rape is a serious crime, a pathetic rambling about rape is also should be taken seriously?

Xenavire
09-06-2014, 09:17 AM
What does that have to do with this??? Because rape is a serious crime, a pathetic rambling about rape is also should be taken seriously?

When its the kind of thing that could trigger a rape victim, who thinks they are safe playing the game? Yeah, lets just avoid that. Its an extreme example, and should be handled with care.

I mean, seriously, the gravity of that is far worse than ANY form of bullying.

nyikhmur
09-06-2014, 09:29 AM
So noone should make fun of jews, murder, cancer etc cause there is a small percentage of the population that might feel bad about it? What are the odds that the other is a rape victim? And if she is?? She s probably so miserable that every second word triggers her bad memories...

Again I absolutely despise this guy,I m not defending him but I m also baffled by the forums general reaction.

Grumph
09-06-2014, 09:43 AM
So noone should make fun of jews, murder, cancer etc cause there is a small percentage of the population that might feel bad about it? What are the odds that the other is a rape victim? And if she is?? She s probably so miserable that every second word triggers her bad memories...

Again I absolutely despise this guy,I m not defending him but I m also baffled by the forums general reaction.

Yea, you probably shouldnt make fun of those

Xenavire
09-06-2014, 09:58 AM
So noone should make fun of jews, murder, cancer etc cause there is a small percentage of the population that might feel bad about it? What are the odds that the other is a rape victim? And if she is?? She s probably so miserable that every second word triggers her bad memories...

Again I absolutely despise this guy,I m not defending him but I m also baffled by the forums general reaction.

Even if the chances are 1 in 1000000, that still means there is a person who could be horrified by this (and thats just the victims in question, the text itself was still pretty foul.) And even if a rape victim was triggered regularly anyway - why let it be worse for them? Why not understand that one of the most horrible experiences a person can go through should be respected? And then be sensitive to the needs of those people?

Trauma... Anything that can trigger a horrific trauma should be avoided in an environment where you wouldn't normally expect to see it. A person with PTSD from a war can avoid movies with violence, they can choose not to play COD... But what if someone is talking about gun violence and bombs in a TCG, of all places? What is the excuse for that kind of talk in a TCG?

That is something that a portion of the playerbase could be living with daily, so lets not be lenient on those who go out of their way to make others miserable.

I mean, there are plenty of other offensive responses the person could have used that wouldn't be receiving this kind of reaction.