PDA

View Full Version : The most important features before Open Beta...



AstaSyneri
09-03-2014, 01:24 AM
imho are direct trading and PvE.

Let me explain.

1. Last night i gave away my last beta key to a friend who'd been sitting on the sidelines. My rationale was that right now he'd still have a chance to get into the VIP program, which is the last vestige of incredible KS value that can be had. He previously has played Magic, but didn't like any of the Magic software (we didn't specify whether that would have been MagicOnLine or Doom of the Planeswalkers).

Tonight (the client wasn't done downloading in time last night) we can play a first game, but I can't just fork over a few Commons and Uncommons to get him (and eventually his girlfriend) going a bit, before they have to climb that first money barrier.

2. Last weekend I played the tutorial with my daughter (8y). The next thing I can play with her is the starter challenge, which is what, three games? After that there is nothing she can play with her deck - I certainly won't let her play in the proving grounds. She can't communicate in English that well yet, and she would certainly be overwhelmed by the decks there.

What I need for her is some sort of gradually increasing challenge against an AI to make her feel comfortable with the general rules and her own deck, and then go from there.


I guess the gist is that currently you have to be a TCG vet to find your way around the game, for people outside that elite group it's rather hard to get involved with Hex at this point. Which is a shame, really, because having a last chance to sign up for the VIP program is a good incentive to make your first Hex purchase.

Khazrakh
09-03-2014, 01:35 AM
I guess the gist is that currently you have to be a TCG vet to find your way around the game, for people outside that elite group it's rather hard to get involved with Hex at this point. Which is a shame, really, because having a last chance to sign up for the VIP program is a good incentive to make your first Hex purchase.

I very much agree with that statement and to be honest, I thought about making a thread about it myself.
The key problem is that most people won't be willing to invest money into the game right away and there isn't much for them to do to get them hooked. Most people will try the game, do the tutorial&starter challenge, play a game or two in the proving grounds and quit, never looking back again.

So yes, in my opinion at least a (stable!) PvE Arena is a must have before we go into Open Beta.

eimerian
09-03-2014, 01:57 AM
I would like to add a bug free set 1 to that list.
At least to a point, where every card reliably does what it says.

Rokku
09-03-2014, 01:58 AM
Maybe in the meantime just a clear way to show that buying packs in auction house then playing swiss drafts or sealed is the best way to start. Dont know how many times in chat I've had to explain that to someone new.

Rokku
09-03-2014, 01:59 AM
I think there needs to be a tutorial for each play mode like draft and sealed. Some people dont even know what it is and the client gives no hints at all.

Khazrakh
09-03-2014, 02:49 AM
I think there needs to be a tutorial for each play mode like draft and sealed. Some people dont even know what it is and the client gives no hints at all.

That's actually a good idea.
If there's an influx of enough players you could give them a "Beginners Draft Ticket" where you only play other newcomers and have a short tutorial explain everrything once the draft starts. You could even have them keep the cards and just mark them as untradeable so you can't abuse the system.

Fenisto
09-03-2014, 03:35 AM
Last weekend I played the tutorial with my daughter (8y). The next thing I can play with her is the starter challenge, which is what, three games? After that there is nothing she can play with her deck - I certainly won't let her play in the proving grounds. She can't communicate in English that well yet, and she would certainly be overwhelmed by the decks there.Can't she play against AI? It's pretty easy.

Diabound
09-03-2014, 03:50 AM
I agree too. I'm trying several digital TCG : this one, Infinity Wars, HS, SolForge, DoC... This one is a good one but I'm hesitating if i pay VIP program for 1 year or not. When I see that I will have to pay to play every time then... I don't understand that you don't give some golds in "proving grounds" or to break farmers, some gold rewards if you connect, play 1 game or 3 games like Infinity Wars or SolForge... Then some tournaments should be available in gold too. I really hate that feeling : pay each time to play.


I guess somme people will say : "it will break the value of cards in the auction house". Ok, so why not make these cards linked to the account ?
It seems that you want to make this game like a real TCG, with an economic value to each card but you shouldn't forget that these cards are only a small line of code in a database...

Sorry if I'm a bit rough, I know it's a beta but you should really think about some "free" ways to participate to tournaments, at least... excepted if you want a game only for true MTG fans.

Jinxies
09-03-2014, 04:20 AM
I guess somme people will say : "it will break the value of cards in the auction house". Ok, so why not make these cards linked to the account ?
Because it would still ruin the value of cards since they would be available for free and thus the demand will be significantly lower.



It seems that you want to make this game like a real TCG, with an economic value to each card but you shouldn't forget that these cards are only a small line of code in a database...

And "real" cards are just pieces of cardboard...

Free tournaments would only work if they offered no card/pack/plat rewards and even then it'd be less than ideal since they'd take away from the real tournaments.

Casual players can play casual PvP or PvE.

ossuary
09-03-2014, 04:32 AM
Hex is not a free to play game in the traditional sense. It's a completely new model. It is two games in one that use the same engine. The free to play aspect is the PVE, which you will never have to pay for to participate in. The PVP and tournament side of the game, however, functions like a traditional TCG. You will ALWAYS have to pay money to acquire cards (at least initially) and to participate in tournaments. That is how the game pays for itself, and it's not going to change, so there's really no point in asking for it to.

Saying you want to play tournaments for free is effectively saying "I don't respect the company that made this game, and I want them to go bankrupt."

Warrender
09-03-2014, 05:23 AM
Funnily enough, that's just how CZE feels as well now that the tutorial is in. :D

AstaSyneri
09-03-2014, 06:06 AM
I would like to add a bug free set 1 to that list.
At least to a point, where every card reliably does what it says.

I respectfully disagree. While it is important, I don't think this would be the reason people would turn away, it's a beta after all. And considering the complexity the client is working really well (well, if there weren't all those bugs that are reintroduced by patches ;-)).


Maybe in the meantime just a clear way to show that buying packs in auction house then playing swiss drafts or sealed is the best way to start. Dont know how many times in chat I've had to explain that to someone new.

Again I disagree. The huge hurdle is to spend any money at all. Said friend can afford it and has played CCGs before, so he knows how it works. It's a matter of finding out whether something is fun enough before you invest money, especially online, and especially if you are thinking to include your better half.

My cases are only examples that got me thinking. My daughter has me to guide here and she isn't going to play more than one game per week right now, so we can easily wait until PvE.

My friends on the other hand face the immediate decision whether to invest in the VIP program or be left out in the cold. I am sure if for example PvE existed, where both of them could play very casually and gain something (levels, etc. - both were big on Dungeon Defenders for example), they'd easily buy the VIP right now.

Kami
09-03-2014, 06:21 AM
For me, it would be authenticators. As more and more people start to notice HEX, I can't help but feel increasingly vulnerable. Especially when money is starting to change hands. Once trading and mailing items is in-game... I'd rather avoid seeing people with accounts cleared out illegitimately.

rjselzler
09-03-2014, 08:24 AM
Can't she play against AI? It's pretty easy.

I wouldn't want anyone to gauge the seriousness of this game by the current AI. Once Skynet is brought out of the recesses of CZE headquarters, this will probably be valid.

Jinxies
09-03-2014, 08:59 AM
For me, it would be authenticators. As more and more people start to notice HEX, I can't help but feel increasingly vulnerable. Especially when money is starting to change hands. Once trading and mailing items is in-game... I'd rather avoid seeing people with accounts cleared out illegitimately.

To be honest I wish they'd finished them as soon as AH went live

Glae
09-03-2014, 03:15 PM
I want to be able to challenge someone in my friends list to a 2/3 game. Assuming we want Constructed to be serious in Hex.

Arbiter
09-04-2014, 12:02 AM
I think it is direct trading and guilds. Having guilds in open beta means that people can find communities of players that provide company, support, advice and any number of environments (pauper, sealed league, competitive, PVE, etc) for players. Your limited options open up when you join into an active community of people.

Jeevus
09-04-2014, 02:52 AM
I would like to add a bug free set 1 to that list.
At least to a point, where every card reliably does what it says.

That, my friend i totally agree with and should be #1 Priority before implementing even more card interactions that may go sideways.

The fact that Hex is in Beta is no excuse whatsoever for the still existing and recently added bugs to set 1. First: After almost a year one can expect a clean and bugfree Set. Secondly, people paying money for drafts/sealeds and constructed tournaments. Even though the support is good and very responsive, i don't think i get a compensation ticket each time i open a useless Eternal Guardian instead of a playable card or run into other bugs.

Xenavire
09-04-2014, 03:26 AM
That, my friend i totally agree with and should be #1 Priority before implementing even more card interactions that may go sideways.

The fact that Hex is in Beta is no excuse whatsoever for the still existing and recently added bugs to set 1. First: After almost a year one can expect a clean and bugfree Set. Secondly, people paying money for drafts/sealeds and constructed tournaments. Even though the support is good and very responsive, i don't think i get a compensation ticket each time i open a useless Eternal Guardian instead of a playable card or run into other bugs.

I just want to point out that most interactions have been perfectly fine, and only some edge cases have been buggy. The last patch we got was horrible though, breaking a lot of perfectly good cards, but since those were fixed at one point, they should be trivial to fix again.

But as long as they whittle it back down to just edge cases, then they should have no problem releasing another set.

fido_one
09-04-2014, 05:40 AM
I'll run on over to the bug forums in a bit when I finish some things up at work, but buyer beware - the 'open multiple packs' seems to be quite broken at the moment. Hitting 5 packs at a time gave me blank screens and I don't think it actually opened more like 1 or 2 packs. Tried a few times and ended up with either nothing or new cards that I have no idea what they are (my collection is big enough that I can't possibly track those pulls).

Fateanomaly
09-04-2014, 09:40 AM
I really cannot recommend hex to my friends without pve up.

Yoss
09-04-2014, 10:21 AM
I really cannot recommend hex to my friends without pve up.

Agreed. I want so badly to have my friends in here to play with, but not just for the short term and that means they have to love it. Hex just isn't there yet for anyone who's not a TCG veteran. I love it (why else would I drop so much money?), but the friends I'd be inviting are new to the genre and have the "try before buy" mentality.

Mahes
09-04-2014, 11:31 AM
I really cannot recommend hex to my friends without pve up.

I am in that same boat. I have 2 friends I have discussed the game with but have not asked them to actually come in yet. I want the whole game to be out first, not just the PvP.

poizonous
09-04-2014, 03:50 PM
I just dont get why people are afraid to invite their friends.... the PvE is simply PvP vs an AI, even if you just have a starter deck you can currently play the AI. Sure there is no real progression currently but people are making it sound like people who dont like the PvP are going to love the PvE... um hello it is the same thing technically.

Zarien
09-04-2014, 03:52 PM
I seriously just want trading in the game. I'd accept even the ability to just mail items. This is the biggest factor missing before open beta. Until we have that, this isn't a true TCG.

rjselzler
09-04-2014, 04:21 PM
I just dont get why people are afraid to invite their friends.... the PvE is simply PvP vs an AI, even if you just have a starter deck you can currently play the AI. Sure there is no real progression currently but people are making it sound like people who dont like the PvP are going to love the PvE... um hello it is the same thing technically.

I believe that the implication from the above posts is that they cannot recommend Hex without meaningful progression PvE experience, such as a dungeon with randomized drops, usable equipment, keep defense, account leveling, and/or classes. Chance are we won't have those things until full-on release. I'm sure the folks above wouldn't be happy with a mere arena as PvE content and will quickly want all the promised PvE goodies before they can invite their friends. Honestly, it's probably for the best; if their friends truly only want PvE, then they'll get tired of the game pretty quick right now. Seriously, there are only so many times you can play your starter Orc deck against the abysmal AI.

...speaking of which, has anyone else notice the AI being able to discard down to 6 at the end of a turn? Yeah, the AI is just that bad.

nicosharp
09-04-2014, 04:40 PM
I thought they fixed that...

whytw0kane
09-04-2014, 04:46 PM
I'll chip in with fixing the "auction" house.

A relist button, this is an absolute basic of an auction house.

Onto the way auctions are done, its simply laughable, and it only just passes as an auction house, its currently more of a buyout house.

Allow auto bids - ebay style, I put in 500 plat bid on a card thats at 50 plat currently and it will automatically outbid everyone who bids up to my 500.

Realtime timer on auctions this 12 house nonsense is complete horseshit.

If I was a new player with not much plat trying to buy things fairly cheaply via bid rather than buyouts I wouldn't know whether it was 12 mins or 12 hours until I can make the deck I am buying said cards for, this is simply an absolutely laughable way of doing things.

Personally I would just have a realtime timer showing, by the second and accept that people sniping is part of an auction.

However as that seems to be the excuse for this horrific auction system, you could also do what other card games do with auctions and have the time remaining get 10 seconds added to it if someone bids in the last 15 seconds of the auction in order to prevent snipers

Right now, its simply a buyout house as the auction part is useless to anyone who isnt just trying to finish a set and in no rush for pages, there should be an option to get cards via bid in a timely manner rather than the current system where you dont know if its 12 seconds, 12 mins or 12 hours before you get the card in your account.

The current format is fine if you want a buyout house, then fair enough call it that, but what you have currently is not a viable auction house.

Gwaer
09-04-2014, 04:55 PM
Can you point me to these other card games with auction houses? Last I checked there weren't any, but things change and I'd like to check out the competition.

Xenavire
09-04-2014, 04:57 PM
Also, this AH is only slightly worse than basic WoW (without addons). With a few tweaks, it could easily be better - people seem to be expecting well above standard for some reason.

Not to say we don't deserve better, but as a placeholder AH, it is perfectly fine.

mach
09-04-2014, 05:04 PM
Can you point me to these other card games with auction houses? Last I checked there weren't any, but things change and I'd like to check out the competition.

The reason for that is that an AH is not a good fit for a TCG.

Xenavire
09-04-2014, 05:06 PM
The reason for that is that an AH is not a good fit for a TCG.

Why not? Ebay is used for MTG, Pokemon, Yugioh, and even WoWTCG cards all the time. It just isn't a good idea for games that give tons of free stuff (which almost every dTCG is doing.)

Gwaer
09-04-2014, 05:07 PM
That's funny because I know of a couple tcg's that have been out longer than hex, that have been promising an AH, but still don't even have a basic one.

nicosharp
09-04-2014, 05:13 PM
Damn so many disgruntled haters posting today. I get it, the game sucks... yet you are all here posting about it. I guess you just want more insight into the development process and more timeline guarantees. That serves no one. Let them keep doing what they are doing and pleasantly surprise a few people with finished progression. As much as it pains me to say all that, and follow it, I think we need to just let them crunch it out.

mach
09-04-2014, 05:20 PM
Why not? Ebay is used for MTG, Pokemon, Yugioh, and even WoWTCG cards all the time. It just isn't a good idea for games that give tons of free stuff (which almost every dTCG is doing.)

eBay is used, but I don't think it's the most popular way to buy/sell cards. I think that honor goes to stores like SCG.

The basic problem with an AH is that it's not very efficient for mass buying/selling of large numbers of cards. Plus, you can't sell instantly.

Compare to MTGO's bot-based system, which is basically just the basic trading feature and letting third-parties do the rest:

Use case 1: I've just drafted a bit and am out of plat. I want to sell the cards I've drafted to fund more drafts. On MTGO, I open trade with a bot I trust and in less than five minutes I've sold it all at a reasonable price. On Hex, I have to list each card individually and then wait for them to sell. I'll probably have to repeat this several times with the ones which don't sell.

Use case 2: I've chosen a deck I want to play but still need some cards. On MTGO I open trade with a bot, import the list of cards I need, and am again finished in less than 5 minutes. On Hex, I must search each card individually, causing the whole process to take a lot longer.

I'm not saying that MTGO's trading system is ideal. It's far from it. But it's still a lot better than Hex's AH.

AHs work great for collectibles and not so great for commodities. When double backs get added and there are cards which have value due to their specific trophies, an AH is great for those cards. But for the 99%+ of trading where the cards have no special value, a traditional AH is a really bad system.

Zophie
09-04-2014, 05:24 PM
I remember reading that they were considering a buy/sell order system for Hex's AH in the future, which would much better than having a bunch of third party bots handling trades like in MTGO.

whytw0kane
09-04-2014, 05:50 PM
Can you point me to these other card games with auction houses? Last I checked there weren't any, but things change and I'd like to check out the competition.

Any edition of FIFA/Madden/NHL Ultimate team granted the cards are not used in the same way as hex but an auction system on hex working in exactly the same way would have no issue.

Compare the interface and functionality here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JJpK4wyliU) to hex the difference in quality is huge.

w00dy101
09-04-2014, 05:54 PM
Wait a sec. Have I misunderstood the VIP program all this time. I thought it would always be available and not go away? You mean to tell me it has a shelf life and I need to sign up by a certain time before it isn't available anymore?

EDIT! Nevermind I found the post about the discontinuation.

Gorgol
09-04-2014, 06:00 PM
Wait a sec. Have I misunderstood the VIP program all this time. I thought it would always be available and not go away? You mean to tell me it has a shelf life and I need to sign up by a certain time before it isn't available anymore?

EDIT! Nevermind I found the post about the discontinuation.

because of people abusing it, yes. :( didn't see the edit.

Yoss
09-04-2014, 06:08 PM
I believe that the implication from the above posts is that they cannot recommend Hex without meaningful progression PvE experience, such as a dungeon with randomized drops, usable equipment, keep defense, account leveling, and/or classes. Chance are we won't have those things until full-on release. I'm sure the folks above wouldn't be happy with a mere arena as PvE content and will quickly want all the promised PvE goodies before they can invite their friends. Honestly, it's probably for the best; if their friends truly only want PvE, then they'll get tired of the game pretty quick right now. Seriously, there are only so many times you can play your starter Orc deck against the abysmal AI.

Arena would be enough for me to invite friends, most likely. I just want them to have a F2P Grind method that doesn't involve getting stomped by PvP decks. (Granted, critical mass on the MMR system might also cover it, but I'm not expecting critical mass any time soon.)

Yoss
09-04-2014, 06:08 PM
I remember reading that they were considering a buy/sell order system for Hex's AH in the future, which would much better than having a bunch of third party bots handling trades like in MTGO.

Yes, Chark said it would be nice to implement the idea in my sig. But he has no resources to get it done. It could be years before we see anything new. :(

In case I change my sig:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26789

Gwaer
09-04-2014, 06:11 PM
Uhhh, looking at that FIFA game you linked... It doesn't look like a tcg at all to me?
The current ah is fine, honestly later on they can just add a buy multiple interface on top of it. Import a deck list, have it grab lowest bid/buyout for all cards in the list, allow you to bid/buyout all now, or manually select cards not to buy if you want to try to get them elsewhere. I'd love lists of cards you want that overlays in drafts saying looking for X copies of this card in (list name)

right now what is important is you can trade cards if you have to, you can buy cards, you can sell cards. None if those things are as convenient as they have to be by release, but they are workable for beta.

poizonous
09-04-2014, 06:23 PM
@Gwaer All the sports games... Ultimate Team mode is practically a TCG with AH capabilities

Zophie
09-04-2014, 06:46 PM
@Gwaer All the sports games... Ultimate Team mode is practically a TCG with AH capabilities

I was actually just reading about how EA was having a lot of problems with hackers and bots in FIFA Ultimate Team mode, doesn't sound like such a great system to me.

EntropyBall
09-04-2014, 10:24 PM
I really cannot recommend hex to my friends without pve up.

I recommended it enough to get 7 friends to back it, but none of them are willing to play or spend any more money on it until PVE is in. The KS greatly oversold how close the PVE was to completion, but what are you going to do? CZE knows that people want PVE, I'm not sure that telling them over and over helps at all (but I'll do it anyway).

It's nice to make the best first impression you can, but I'm not convinced that people who try the game during open beta won't try it again when PVE is in.

sukebe
09-04-2014, 11:50 PM
I remember reading that they were considering a buy/sell order system for Hex's AH in the future, which would much better than having a bunch of third party bots handling trades like in MTGO.

they did indeed say that. They said that the current AH would have to do until they have more time to work on a better version. (edit: and that it would unfortunately be a long while before that time will be available)

I am also glad they will not be going with 3rd party bots and have kept a clear and simple "no bots of any kind" policy.
-----------------------

As for recommending this game to friends: I have recommended it to friends and family who like TCGs and know how they work. I will recommend it to my f2p/miserly friends/family once any amount of pve is available or when I can trade them a common/uncommon set for grinding gold in random proving grounds :-)

whytw0kane
09-04-2014, 11:56 PM
I was actually just reading about how EA was having a lot of problems with hackers and bots in FIFA Ultimate Team mode, doesn't sound like such a great system to me.

The "hacking" you speak of is simply people falling for fake sites asking for EA login details basically, anything popular gets that, anyone dumb enough to fall for it in this day and age its their own fault IMO.

As far as the bots go, yup, but its a flash based web app, which I imagine is alot easier to exploit than hex would be.

Anyway, the point I was making has nothing to do with either of those, the point was the features that has in comparison to hex.

The benefits basically copying the UT system would be -

Shorter auctions (you can do 60 min listings on there) meaning you can guarantee x amount of plat within an hour if you wanted to get some quick for whatever reason.

Showing the exact time remaining on auctions rather than the current system, which is frankly laughable and barley passes as an auction (Can anyone show me an auction in the world anywhere in any format that just shows "some time in the next 12 hours" as the end time?) This would be of benefit to people wanting to get certain cards within a timely manner.

Sniping impossible on UT as if someone bids within the last 30 seconds (I think? may be 15) of an auction,10(again may be 15 or 20 not 100% on the numbers, but its a few secs) seconds is added to the timer, until there is only one person left bidding on it and willing to pay that price and everyone who wants it is getting a fair shot at it.

There is also built in trading within this style of auction - for example if I have a card up, whilst the auction is running, people can make me offers of card(s) + plat and the auction is ended if I accept an offer and obviously have the time the auction is running for to review offers.

All of the above would also likely mean cards that are auctioned off will go for more plat, If I could buy something on an auction thats about to finish, I'm more inclined to bid on it than I am if I dont know whether I'll get the card in a 2 mins or 12 hours, I imagine more people would show an interest in trading if there was an auction market as well as a buy out market.

I've got a few cards very cheap bidding on stuff myself but I eventually gave up because its so much hassle to keep track of with not knowing the time remaining that its not worth it as 90% of your bids are pointless as the card is likely to sell for more if it has hours left and theres such a huge window for others to see it. The "auction" part of the game at the moment is basically a complete lottery unless you want to sit and watch the 12 hours go by and keep checking on it, which most wont.

An auction house should resemble an actual auction if it is advertised as that, which the current one does not, there is no need to try and reinvent the wheel with this 12 hour guessing game bs when something like the UT system is there to be used and proven to be working in an acceptable manner that people new to the game may be used to.