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View Full Version : Noob question: Am I breaking etiquette in random matches?



lippo
09-10-2014, 05:52 PM
First time TCG player, long time Hex supporter here. I've started to test HTPCS winners in random match-ups, not to farm gold but to learn how different cards and decks are played. I played all these games against the AI(which seems to make a lot of mistakes) up until yesterday but now I'm concerned I'm just pissing people off. One player conceded our game and told me pay2win is horrible. Should I not be using these powerful decks in random matches?

Werlix
09-10-2014, 05:54 PM
No you're fine, there's no other free way to play constructed games right now so don't let it bother you :) It's the same in any TCG, if you take a top tier deck into random games, some people will get mad. When the rating/ranking/matchmaking system is improved and we have more people in game, this should be less of an issue.

S117
09-10-2014, 06:13 PM
As someone who played Elder Dragon Highlander for years with very casual people at the same time as very competitive people I don't think this argument will ever go away.

Some people would only play decks that gave them the best chance of winning with some of the most expensive cards MtG had to offer throughout it's entire history. Others would use the more recent sets with cards they were able to afford on a limited budget. I was more the latter. And playing against some of the competitive people, who were friends of mine no less, I came to decide to not play against certain people, or at least certain decks of theirs, at all. But was it really their fault? I never berated them because I thought they were evil powergamers who cared only about winning in an explicitly casual format.

I don't feel anyone has the right to tell anyone else that a card is 'too powerful' for someone to include in their deck. Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to decide what card someone, who paid or won on their own merits, may or may not play in their decks? And by what definition is a card 'too powerful' anyway? Vampire King? DIES TO MURDER...AoD? Also DIES TO MURDER...or Inner Coinflict...or Solitary Exile...or, hell, even Polymorph: Dingler...all of which are cheap, readily available cards that are wise includes in decks beyond dealing with just those two expensive cards. And, ultimately, if someone doesn't want to play against them they don't have to, by only challenging friends they know form example...I didn't...I literally quit playing EDH because of the aforementioned reasons. But that was my decision and not the fault of someone trying to build a good deck.

TL : DR - No you are not a bad player for using cards you own that you paid for or put forth effort to win.

Now what I DO think we need is separate 'rooms' for different levels of play...I do understand the frustration of trying to play a 'casual' deck (Reginald Lancaster anyone? :D ) and getting paired up against someone practicing for a tournament. Hell even on the flip-side if I'm practicing for a tourney I'd rather get paired up against a tournament serious deck rather than Joe Noob rocking a starter deck (Not that that's an insult by any means...we all started somewhere)...

So I think we need a room for 'Tournament' decks to be matched up and one for more 'Casual' ones and maybe still a queue for truly random matchups...or perhaps a better way to advertise what you're looking for a way to say 'No VK plz' or 'Serious only decks plz' etc etc...




EDIT: And btw on the Pay2Win remark: Hex PvP is not P2W...it is Pay2Play (And CZE has never tried to hide or dissuade that fact). P2W occurs when the devs make ways to gain/encourage an advantage that is solely available for hard currency (See: WoT's Gold Ammo). "But wait" you say "I can buy Plat and go and buy 4 AoD 10 min after starting the game. How is that not P2W?" What we have in Hex is different...it is a secondary market. CZE did not sell you those AoD's...you bought them from another player, who had to open/buy those AoD's himself, then, for whatever reason, decided he wanted to get rid of them. The PvE part will be F2P and can even allow you to buy in to PvP if you are good/lucky on your drops enough (I guarantee there will be people willing to drop Plat on chase PvE Rare/Legends).


EDIT2: Boy am I in the mood to rant tonight... :P

Phenteo
09-10-2014, 06:15 PM
You're perfectly fine! Welcome to the community Lippo!

KingGabriel
09-10-2014, 06:30 PM
Phantom, you've spelt your name wrong again. Also, today i beat someone with a dwarf starter deck and then had them complain that i had too many cards overall (i had sleeved it though, no other changes) - i found it pretty funny. :P

Chark
09-10-2014, 06:39 PM
Reasonable question. Every person has a different level of tolerance for self-imposed rules. This book touches on this phenomenon: what people perceive as "cheap" within a construct of a system http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html (the whole book is worth a read, but paragraphs 2 and 4 are directly relevant).

Of course, there is a caveat to this whole discussion in that the optimal deck construction in TCGs does typically require you to spend money (that certainly muddies the waters). Each person is going to reconcile that differently. For me the decision is typically to do analysis on why I lost, followed by the decision to either spend money to level the playing field or not (and accept that there will be unwinable games). For example in Hearthstone, I've accepted that I will just lose at a certain rank, because I haven't spent any money in the game and my deck is underpowered compared to others. Others may conclude that they lost due to unfairness of the system design and quit.

The interesting thing about players who try to understand why they lost rather than finding an external reason to blame for their loss, is that they tend to be better players for it. I am fairly confident that given equal access to cards in those matches, you would have likely still won (and they would have blamed something else in the game design for their losses).

Bottom line I don't believe you're doing anything wrong. As a systems designer if my goal is to retain the players who you may be turning off from the game, I should do a better job with the system. I can create other options for you to test tier 1 decks, shelter new players through better match making, or different queues, or different incentives, etc.

Here are a couple of options for you if you want to keep testing tier 1 decks:

1. Give it more matches. Your MMR was set to new/unknown player MMR. More wins should push you out of range of newer players/players who are playing with underpowered decks and into the range of experienced players with good decks.

2. Find some folks who are willing to help you test and challenge them directly. Our community is awesome and is always willing to help a player who is trying to get better at the game.

KingGabriel
09-10-2014, 06:42 PM
Person with 1 post shows up, chark assigns a reading list... ;p Can't speak for anyone else, but I'll happily fight anyone who challenges me, so long as im not drafting or something.

Slish
09-10-2014, 07:20 PM
Interesting point. I tend to agree with the others here and I think the OP (lippo) ofcourse shouldn't be bothered by it.

However. If I'm one of the persons playing against a super-competitive deck. I would probably get annoyed too and probably just surrender quickly as soon as I see it's X-deck and I wont stand a chance, since Im not really gonna lose anything anyway. Am I doing something totally wrong now as well?

magic_gazz
09-10-2014, 07:30 PM
First time TCG player, long time Hex supporter here. I've started to test HTPCS winners in random match-ups, not to farm gold but to learn how different cards and decks are played. I played all these games against the AI(which seems to make a lot of mistakes) up until yesterday but now I'm concerned I'm just pissing people off. One player conceded our game and told me pay2win is horrible. Should I not be using these powerful decks in random matches?

Welcome to the game.

I suggest doing what Chark said (not the reading) and just asking in general chat if anyone wants to test competitive decks with you. You will not get the 100 gold but it is not like that matters to people with good decks.

Ignore people who get mad with you, it is not your problem if they do not want to spend the time or money to get what you need.

magic_gazz
09-10-2014, 07:33 PM
Interesting point. I tend to agree with the others here and I think the OP (lippo) ofcourse shouldn't be bothered by it.

However. If I'm one of the persons playing against a super-competitive deck. I would probably get annoyed too and probably just surrender quickly as soon as I see it's X-deck and I wont stand a chance, since Im not really gonna lose anything anyway. Am I doing something totally wrong now as well?

Some people may get upset with this but I would not worry about it if I was you.

Neither of you would have any fun playing the game out anyway. Well they might if they enjoy stomping people, but they still get their 100 gold and it does not take long to find a new opponent.

If you are really worried what people think just say something like "I do not think I can beat your deck, will save us both the time and conceded".

funktion
09-10-2014, 08:02 PM
I'd consider your experience to be an outlier. Seems more like they were the one being rude to me but to each their own I suppose.

If you'd wanted to be breaking etiquette then your response could have been, "umadbro" or "usoundmad" /jerkfaceoff

Really though it is pretty awesome that you're new to the game and already diving in as deep as you are. Welcome to the community!

Werlix
09-10-2014, 08:26 PM
1. Give it more matches. Your MMR was set to new/unknown player MMR. More wins should push you out of range of newer players/players who are playing with underpowered decks and into the range of experienced players with good decks.

You can look up a player's MMR? Hmm interesting...

lippo
09-10-2014, 08:58 PM
Thanks guys. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't unwillfully(that a word?) ruining someone else's game by being ignorant of hex decorum. Especially if they were a free player. I'll definitely start asking more experienced people to play against these decks, I just want to make sure I understand what some of these cards do first. For example, it took me way, way too long to figure out what counterspell could do, mostly because I was reading the text incorrectly. Weapon in the hands of a child is dangerous but more likely to hurt himself. That's me.

lippo
09-10-2014, 09:40 PM
Totally unrelated but are weird moves from the AI considered a bug? Not sure where to report them. AI attacks even with 0 attack, wasting its blocking opportunity and will sometimes launch charge power for no reason (e.g. 2 opposing troops can't block this turn but I have no cards out on the board).

Gwaer
09-10-2014, 09:50 PM
AI is just placeholder of the time being, it's being entirely replaced not fixed.

Mike411
09-11-2014, 03:31 AM
No, you're not breaking etiquette, that's why there's a matchmaking system. Also, whether or not you're farming gold doesn't matter. If you did want to farm gold, this is your only free option until PVE comes, so no one can blame you for trying your best.

AstaSyneri
09-11-2014, 05:08 AM
@lippo: It's perfectly fine. Although I had strange stuff happen to me in random matches as well (players ragequitting while playing against a tournament deck).

The most funny occurrence was when my Orc Gorefeast deck was outblitzed by an Orc Starter. Or the other time when I was shard-flooded (11 resources on turn 8, wtf?), and a bunny (starter?) deck just overwhelmed me with the one Onslaught it had. Good Times. :D

Warrender
09-11-2014, 06:03 AM
People do not like losing and will blame anything and everything in order to make themselves feel better about it.

Please do not let them also make you feel bad for playing the game the way you want to play.

Prometheusfire
09-11-2014, 07:31 AM
it's pvp not good guy steve club. whether you are testing a deck or just out for a steamroll with an awesome deck, it is all fair game.

Kami
09-11-2014, 07:41 AM
Part of the issue is that there are currently no 'fun' formats to relieve frustration other than quitting the game and doing something else.

There's no PvE to progress in, there's no multiplayer games for shenanigans (this word isn't used enough, enjoy!), the chat system isn't exactly user friendly, and there are random bugs (to be expected though).

It doesn't matter what type of deck you run with because it will eventually affect someone and set them off, unfortunately.

And some people are just flat-out unlucky. I once ran a T1 deck and what do you know? Over the course of seven consecutive games (followed by one win... then another horrible streak for the same reasons), I was unable to do anything meaningful for over thirty consecutive turns due to either resource screw, resource flood, or threshold screw. (Note: This is not about the resource system - this has been analyzed to death.) I know I was just unlucky but man, what else can you do in this game after that beyond quit and do something else?

The same feelings apply when someone who only has a starter deck tries to compete against dozens of players that have better decks with them. I can understand this, I can empathize with it. Again, the weakness is that there is content that is just not available to let players vent and just screw around.

In the meantime, I wouldn't be concerned with running whatever deck or playing however you like as long as you are being respectful. Eventually things will balance out. Trading will come in, stuff will be shared, we'll also get guild banks too and more.

Only thing people can do is be patient and that is something people just aren't used to anymore.

lippo
09-11-2014, 08:08 AM
I think I may go back to the starter decks for awhile. Haven't played them against real players. Not sure I'm learning that much with these tournament decks since tonight everyone seems to concede much earlier than I would expect. I can see how it's no fun playing against Elademri's July tourny deck in particular. Opponent can hardly get a card out and I don't even know what I'm doing.

Was fun playing in God mode for awhile but I need to work on my fundamentals. Anybody got a reading list for deckbuilding?

Glae
09-11-2014, 08:20 AM
Big ups to Chark for posting "Playing to Win." That book actually really changed how I approached gaming, and its actually a pretty light read for anyone interested in competition at all.

If there's anyone who hasn't read it, they should.

Kami
09-11-2014, 08:33 AM
Having played competitively in tournaments for various activities since I was a kid, I've learned that you can learn more about your opponent by playing with/or against them. I've also learned to accept defeat, despite how painful it might be. I've learned that you should always try your best even when the odds are stacked against you. More importantly, I've learned to empathize with my opponents.

I will never intentionally go easy on an opponent unless I'm at a high enough skill level where I can make it not obvious because that would be disrespecting my opponent. In reality, facing off against an opponent is really facing off against yourself. At least, that's my philosophy after years of competition. :)

lippo
09-11-2014, 08:42 AM
Didn't realize that was an excerpt from Playing To Win. It's been sitting on my shelf for the longest. I stopped reading it because I thought it was all about going pro and the big take away from what I read was, if you can't commit, don't bother. Obviously, there are other lessons to be learned. Will dust it off again. Thanks Chark.

lippo
09-11-2014, 08:49 AM
Interesting. My first loss was way more enjoyable than my previous wins. Human starter(me) crushed by Shin'hare deck. Was way more intense. Plus, I learned something new. Using multiple blockers on a single attacker. Did not know that.

dogmod
09-11-2014, 10:17 AM
Are tournament wins included in MMR?? I play hardly any challenge mode but never get matched up with new people so I assume all my draft play has upped my MMR. I would also like to verify that tournament match making doesn't use MMR?

Chark
09-11-2014, 10:37 AM
Are tournament wins included in MMR?? I play hardly any challenge mode but never get matched up with new people so I assume all my draft play has upped my MMR. I would also like to verify that tournament match making doesn't use MMR?

Yeah, tournament activity adjusts your MMR. While obviously Draft and Constructed are slightly different beasts (there are constructed and limited specialists for other popular TCGs), I feel like getting people out of the new/unknown player range is important enough to use all available tools to do so. I believe that most players are playing draft tournament matches to win, so performance there is indicative of the person's true playing ability.

Tournament match making does not use MMR, because it would incentivize weird behavior outside of tournaments in order to maximize tournament performance. If we used MMR in tournaments (for example for round one pairings), the most optimal behavior would be to artificially lower your MMR before participating in the tournament.

Turtlewing
09-11-2014, 12:17 PM
First time TCG player, long time Hex supporter here. I've started to test HTPCS winners in random match-ups, not to farm gold but to learn how different cards and decks are played. I played all these games against the AI(which seems to make a lot of mistakes) up until yesterday but now I'm concerned I'm just pissing people off. One player conceded our game and told me pay2win is horrible. Should I not be using these powerful decks in random matches?



You aren't doing anything wrong by playing the deck you want to play.

Realistically constructed is a pay to win format (you either put enough money in to have at least one top tier deck or you'll sometimes get beat because you opponent's deck is better than yours).

This is part of the nature of TCGs and it's not really reasonable for people to wine about it in this way IMO.

There are other formats that are "pay to play" instead of "pay to win" such as sealed and draft. And eventually there will be the possibility of selling chase PvE items/cards for platinum to get PvP cards without investing real money (but we're not there yet).

Xetherion
09-11-2014, 12:23 PM
As others have said, some people are just quick to blame others for their losses. I recently had a player call me a pay2win bitch after I played a Burn to kill one of his troops. I laughed and told him Burn is a Common, and he complained that I had a deck sleeve making me a pay2win. I eventually won the game without ever playing any cards above Uncommon, and he still whined and insulted me and called me pay2win. This community would be better off if such players quit anyway.

ThomasHunter
09-11-2014, 12:25 PM
Dumb question time: what is MMR? (sorry, but I don't actually know...)

Warrender
09-11-2014, 12:25 PM
As others have said, some people are just quick to blame others for their losses. I recently had a player call me a pay2win bitch after I played a Burn to kill one of his troops. I laughed and told him Burn is a Common, and he complained that I had a deck sleeve making me a pay2win. I eventually won the game without ever playing any cards above Uncommon, and he still whined and insulted me and called me pay2win. This community would be better off if such players quit anyway.

Well, obviously, your deck sleeve was instrumental in your overpowered win. :D

Turtlewing
09-11-2014, 12:31 PM
Dumb question time: what is MMR? (sorry, but I don't actually know...)

Match Maker Ranking?

I don't know but it's a guess based on the context.

[edit] In context it's clearly the thing that marks "how good a player" you are which is used by the matchmaker to decide who among the various players in the queue you should be paired with for the match. I'm not 100% on the acronym.

Zophie
09-11-2014, 12:47 PM
Dumb question time: what is MMR? (sorry, but I don't actually know...)

Matchmaking Rating. It's a value that determines the skill level of each player based on their play history. Generally speaking, winning games increases a player's MMR, while losing decreases it. When you queue up to play random players in the Proving Grounds it takes your MMR into consideration when determining who to pair you up against. There are probably other factors involved such as how many people are queued and length of time waiting, but ideally it should pair you with someone close to the same MMR as you. If you are new and have odd matchups it's usually because the system is still calibrating to you and you just need to play more games to get your MMR to "stabilize".

Xenavire
09-11-2014, 02:14 PM
As others have said, some people are just quick to blame others for their losses. I recently had a player call me a pay2win bitch after I played a Burn to kill one of his troops. I laughed and told him Burn is a Common, and he complained that I had a deck sleeve making me a pay2win. I eventually won the game without ever playing any cards above Uncommon, and he still whined and insulted me and called me pay2win. This community would be better off if such players quit anyway.

I'm curious, which was the offending sleeve? :p

Yoss
09-11-2014, 02:46 PM
Yeah, tournament activity adjusts your MMR. While obviously Draft and Constructed are slightly different beasts (there are constructed and limited specialists for other popular TCGs), I feel like getting people out of the new/unknown player range is important enough to use all available tools to do so. I believe that most players are playing draft tournament matches to win, so performance there is indicative of the person's true playing ability.

Tournament match making does not use MMR, because it would incentivize weird behavior outside of tournaments in order to maximize tournament performance. If we used MMR in tournaments (for example for round one pairings), the most optimal behavior would be to artificially lower your MMR before participating in the tournament.

Are we going to get a "fun MMR" queue at some point? My MMR is going to be quite high from my tournament play, but when I play PG I'm really not interested in Tier 1 the vast majority of the time. PGMM (Proving Grounds Match Maker) is purely for fun in my book (until you introduce Ladder play and the 4 types of Asynch, but that should be a separate queue set).

I want a place where I can goof off against random humans with suboptimal decks (played by a high MMR player). As it stands, my only hope is just to concede over and over until I find someone who isn't running Tier 1 as I goof off with my Infinite Combo deck (or whatever). :(

Zophie
09-11-2014, 02:52 PM
Are we going to get a "fun MMR" queue at some point? My MMR is going to be quite high from my tournament play, but when I play PG I'm really not interested in Tier 1 the vast majority of the time. PGMM (Proving Grounds Match Maker) is purely for fun in my book (until you introduce Ladder play, but that should be a separate queue).

I want a place where I can goof off against random humans with suboptimal decks (played by a high MMR player). As it stands, my only hope is just to concede over and over until I find someone who isn't running Tier 1 as I goof off with my Infinite Combo deck (or whatever). :(

I imagine at some point when a more formal ladder/ranked play system is implemented they'll give us options to choose between "Practice" or "Ranked" modes, kinda like the matchmaking in Starcraft 2/Hearthstone.

KingGabriel
09-11-2014, 04:04 PM
I'm curious, which was the offending sleeve? :p
Ik this wasn't to me, but i basically had the same experience if you look above - mine was a vet glad sleeve, so if you actually know how rare/long it takes to usually get that its more of a valid assumption - still silly though.

Xenavire
09-11-2014, 04:28 PM
Ik this wasn't to me, but i basically had the same experience if you look above - mine was a vet glad sleeve, so if you actually know how rare/long it takes to usually get that its more of a valid assumption - still silly though.

Considering the amount I have rolled, and I still don't have it, then yeah, thats a sleeve that is part earned, part luck.

Funnily, it would be one of the more 'pay to win' ones, since you have to pay for and win lots of tournaments, plus have enough packs... Not that I consider any sleeve pay to win. :p

KingGabriel
09-11-2014, 04:59 PM
Ironically i got them in full reverse order - Gladiator then Colossus, then Acolyte.

LordGorchnik
09-11-2014, 06:51 PM
Man it just has to be said again but you are fine boss. Play what you want, when you want. HEX is a trading (despite it not being in yet) card game and that means you have to pay to play. You don't walk into a local gaming store and buy a beginner pack of Magic/Yugioh/Pokemon and expect to get 40 rares, 15 uncommons and 5 commons.

That being said, what Kami stated is important to make note of. Because HEX is a baby and there are no other content modes there is no other avenue for "free" or "casual" players to take if they keep losing against higher tiered decks. It's one of the reasons "many" of us would like to see some sort of PvE enabled content before set 2 but alas...

Keep fighting the good fight, keep the nose clean, and always offer advice to other free or newer players. I never give quarter in my duels but advice is always offered if they ask.

KingGabriel
09-11-2014, 07:16 PM
Well, you don't walk into a gaming store then ask to buy a starter deck for nothing either :P ;p

Xetherion
09-12-2014, 11:48 AM
I'm curious, which was the offending sleeve? :p

The one with the dragon breathing fire. I don't really pay attention to the names of the sleeves.

Xenavire
09-12-2014, 01:19 PM
The one with the dragon breathing fire. I don't really pay attention to the names of the sleeves.

Cool, I remember that art. Very nice.