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benczi
09-12-2014, 12:03 PM
We should be able to change heroes in sealed.
In sealed we open 6 boosters. There is a very high chance that there are several strategies that you can go, I just had a pool, where I could literally play any shard combination, and I'm very disappointed that once I chose a my shards and champion there is absolutely no change I can make to my deck during side boarding.

TJTaylor
09-12-2014, 12:15 PM
I disagree. The champ you choose is like a card that you are adding that to your card pool. You don't have every champion in your pool, just one. It is like being able to side in a card from your collection instead of the limited pool you have to work with.

I not only think you shouldn't be able to change your champ between games but also shouldn't be able to change your gems for the exact same reason.

xanbie
09-12-2014, 01:15 PM
I agree with the OP


The champ you choose is like a card that you are adding that to your card pool.

And every card you get in limited is in your card Pool and reserve so your champ you pick for you main deck should revert back every paired match but game 2 -3 should have the option to change champs just like changing gems and using other reserved cards.

in con I don't think you should be able to change champs but limited should be more open like the more then 4 of a kind of card.

muti effect threshold champs could be in future sets sort of like how Stargazer works would be a good addition to strats and allow you to side out whole shards.

but using TJT logic might as well get rid of reserves in constructed all together (there is another topic on this in the forms).

TJTaylor
09-12-2014, 01:30 PM
On the contrary. Your reserves are part of your deck, something many new to intermediate players tend to forget. A Constructed deck is not 60 cards. It is 75. Plus your Champ.

Scammanator
09-12-2014, 01:40 PM
Your champion is your identity for that tournament. It doesn't make sense to change your identity mid-match. Plus there's nothing saying that you can't remove all your sapphire cards just because Feather-Drifting-Downriver is your champion. You just lose access to your charge power (unless you keep one shard in and grab it with SoF or AID).

Just pick your champion carefully.

Lukezors
09-12-2014, 01:50 PM
It might not be a bad idea to allow us to sideboard a champion in limited.

It would also be really nice to be able to create Multiple decks in limited so that you don't have to spend a ton of time sideboarding if you are switching out and entire shard.

benczi
09-13-2014, 04:43 PM
Just so we're clear, I'm talking specifically about Sealed, not limited in general. In draft you draft according to a strategy, and by the second pack you already know pretty much the shards you will be playing. In Sealed you get 6 packs worth of cards and endless possibilities. Looking at my card pool, and what my opponent is playing sometimes I just want to change my whole deck with what I have in my pool. That is currently not possible at all, and that is what why I'm saying that at least in sealed we should be able to change absolutely everything.

KingGabriel
09-13-2014, 05:32 PM
This gives an advantage to shards who's champions have more generalized powers and so are easier to change between imo.

Lafoote
09-13-2014, 05:46 PM
Changing champions doesn't sound like something you'd want to do if you've built well. Changing everything around for a "surprise" is one of those things that sounds interesting strategically, but rarely works as intended.

Lawlschool
09-13-2014, 05:53 PM
This gives an advantage to shards who's champions have more generalized powers and so are easier to change between imo.

What shard(s) would that be though? All shards seem to have two general use and two theme-specific champs, so I'm not sure what shard or shard combination would get an unfair advantage.

Tbh, not letting us change champs in limited seems like a pretty artificial restriction given how much freedom we already have with sideboarding. You can already revamp your strategy completely, if you have the time / cards for it, so why not allow a champ change to match the strategy change? I don't buy the "your champ is your identity" argument, since, strictly speaking, your keep is your identity and your champ is just another tool at your disposal.

KingGabriel
09-13-2014, 06:09 PM
Ruby is nearly completely theme specific for example.

Littlejon24
09-13-2014, 06:16 PM
i can see a case on both sides of the argument, but i would have to give the edge toward no changing hero's. part of building your deck is also deciding which hero you want to play with. if you feel the need to change your hero more than once in a tournament, you likely made a poor decision picking your hero in the first place. there might be that one or two matchups where you want a different hero, and i understand at that point why you would want a hero change.

you should also understand that it's a tournament.

magic_gazz
09-13-2014, 10:11 PM
I actually agree with this. If you are able to build a ruby/blood deck and then game 2 change to a diamond/sapphire deck then you should be allowed an appropriate champion to go with it.

Not allowing this means you can change you deck but are handicapped but not having a usable champion. That means that people may be less likely to change shards during sealed and reduces their options.

Littlejon24
09-13-2014, 10:46 PM
one bad part about making champions changeable during sealed is the confusion that follows. after you allow the changes, new players will think you can do it in draft and possibly constructed between rounds. this is not a new user friendly strategy.

perhaps a separate format in the future could be established to allow for Champion changes. that would be interesting

Frost3
09-13-2014, 11:48 PM
There is a huge difference between side boarding sorrow into your deck to deal with high yield ruby decks, and switching to Venom. The amount of power that sorrow gives you as a side board, is not equal to the amount of power that Venom gives you.

Part of side boarding is asking your self, what cards do i have that i can use to better deal with my opponent. Generally these cards have specific roles, when you add them into you deck, and do not work much beyond that.

The ability to shift a champion on the other is huge and would entirely alter a match up. Venom is a very powerful champion, but there are certain decks where he shines. Imagine playing a blood/sapphire deck, and being able to answer ruby decks with venom, and wild deck, or low flight decks, with Feather. Adjusting a strategy is about being able to take known factors, and variables, and build with them in mind. The dramatic shift various cards like sorrow, or total melt down may have, are not nearly as large as a champion switch.

Also with set two, champion powers are suppose to become even more prevalent, and powerful. Two tone resources, will allow splashing to be even stronger, allowing splashing a champion just for their ability to be even easier. Part of picking a champion is also picking your decks identity. If you pick a champion that doesn’t harmonize well to obfuscate your true intent, you lower your real power, for psychological power. Switching would allow you to utilize vast amounts of both, and make balancing the overall game more difficult in the process.

Now ask your self if you believe that these types of power swings and champion splashing from one game to another is OK with you? If not, then i rest my case, if you do, then i will humbly disagree, and let Hex Ent decide.

magic_gazz
09-14-2014, 12:13 AM
There is a huge difference between side boarding sorrow into your deck to deal with high yield ruby decks, and switching to Venom. The amount of power that sorrow gives you as a side board, is not equal to the amount of power that Venom gives you.

Part of side boarding is asking your self, what cards do i have that i can use to better deal with my opponent. Generally these cards have specific roles, when you add them into you deck, and do not work much beyond that.

The ability to shift a champion on the other is huge and would entirely alter a match up. Venom is a very powerful champion, but there are certain decks where he shines. Imagine playing a blood/sapphire deck, and being able to answer ruby decks with venom, and wild deck, or low flight decks, with Feather. Adjusting a strategy is about being able to take known factors, and variables, and build with them in mind. The dramatic shift various cards like sorrow, or total melt down may have, are not nearly as large as a champion switch.

Also with set two, champion powers are suppose to become even more prevalent, and powerful. Two tone resources, will allow splashing to be even stronger, allowing splashing a champion just for their ability to be even easier. Part of picking a champion is also picking your decks identity. If you pick a champion that doesn’t harmonize well to obfuscate your true intent, you lower your real power, for psychological power. Switching would allow you to utilize vast amounts of both, and make balancing the overall game more difficult in the process.

Now ask your self if you believe that these types of power swings and champion splashing from one game to another is OK with you? If not, then i rest my case, if you do, then i will humbly disagree, and let Hex Ent decide.

I am actually convinced.

Well played.

BlackRoger
09-14-2014, 02:02 AM
Changing champions doesn't sound like something you'd want to do if you've built well. Changing everything around for a "surprise" is one of those things that sounds interesting strategically, but rarely works as intended.

That's very untrue.
How many times did you pick the -1/-1 champion in draft just to get matched with a green deck where nothing dies to it?
Or you picked the draw champion just to find out your opponent is trying to rush you down and a life gain champion would have been better?

I'm not saying I think champions should be switchable, I'm fine either way.
Just saying that like cards, every champion is stronger in certain matchups and weaker in others.


The dramatic shift various cards like sorrow, or total melt down may have, are not nearly as large as a champion switch.

I agree with you about the identity of the deck issue, but I do not agree about the power level.
As consistent as your hero power is, it is not on the same level as melting all the artifacts of a dwarf deck, or wiping your opponent's army of tokens.
Most sideboard cards > Champion power.

Frost3
09-14-2014, 10:23 AM
That is a fair point, but consider that most powerful side boards only work in small niches. On the other hand while most champion powers are great in small niches they are also useful in broad strokes. For example. Sorrow is temporary, which is great for Gem Crazed, because it will die before its effect leaves play. Venom however is permanent which means its effects are long lasting, and can be used against larger troops for various purposes. Whether this is comboing with sorrow, atrophy, or simple preventing the soldier from being able to kill something you have. Additionally sorrow can hinder your own troops, which is something your always having to consider.

Total melt down is a powerful rare, that does absolutely nothing, unless your facing artifacts. Which makes Venom more useful in a broad context. Plus your champion is always on the field, a card, you always have, only waiting for the resources to use its power. Total melt down is a card you will be searching for as you start your game, and unless you were lucky enough to have more then one to increase your odds of finding it, the chance it sees play may be slim.

While certainly at the right time, total melt down can come in with a powerful sweeping effect, that blows your opponent away. The rarity of the card, and lower probability of use within a given game, versus the often multiple uses of your champion make it, less powerful in the long run, simply because its less consistent. Consistency is a huge factor in games, things that will play out more often then not, are often more advantageous then things that only work once in awhile.

Also consider that if one had the ability to change to any champion from the set, all you would need, is to splash the resource to have that power. Unlike Total Melt Down, which is a rare card, and thus only shows up in some pools, making it less likely to occur. Having to consider every champion in the pool as a possible side board, complicates the side board match up, and makes the game far more difficult for new players. It is also, something that I personally consider unnecessary.

While I cant disagree that in any given instance, your point is completely accurate, I still feel that overall for various reasons I have pointed out, that its better that you not be able to change champions.