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Shaqattaq
09-12-2014, 05:30 PM
Hi HEXers! This week, we have some more news to share about VIP tournaments, as well as a lore preview of the arena!

https://hextcg.com/hex-update-stay-frosty/

x78089
09-12-2014, 05:47 PM
Can I assume that you mean in preparation for and not "in lieu of" for the sept VIP tourney?

Shaqattaq
09-12-2014, 05:49 PM
Can I assume that you mean in preparation for and not "in lieu of" for the sept VIP tourney?

Yes. Thanks. That's been corrected.

MugenMusou
09-12-2014, 05:54 PM
Hmmm.... Slightly disappointed that AA for collector is just a rare card and not legendary... I had hoped they would pick most popular card eg angel or vampire to make AA...

IndigoShade
09-12-2014, 05:56 PM
Hmmm.... Slightly disappointed that AA for collector is just a rare card and not legendary... I had hoped they would pick most popular card eg angel or vampire to make AA...

I'm okay with a rare rather than a legendary, but Master Theorycrafter? Really? I dunno, maybe he will see more play when set 2 comes out, but I'm extremely underwhelmed atm.

hexnaes
09-12-2014, 05:59 PM
nvm.

Baldo
09-12-2014, 06:02 PM
I'm not a collector tier player, but a couple observations:

-The art is great! And flavorful! He's placing a gem into the bots brain!
-I was never under the impression that the collector tier cards were going to be the most powerful cards from the set. I did assume rare or above though, so I guess assuming a legendary is just an extension of that same line of thought.
-Master theorycrafter is an excellent "representative" from set 1. He shows off more than one digital mechanic in a single card.

Mike411
09-12-2014, 06:03 PM
Yes. Thanks. That's been corrected.

I force-refreshed and it still says in lieu *shrug* - also it links to the "Free Tournament This Saturday" thread for the "Discuss this article" link.

Xenavire
09-12-2014, 06:04 PM
I'm okay with a rare rather than a legendary, but Mastery Theorycrafter? Really? I dunno, maybe he will see more play when set 2 comes out, but I'm extremely underwhelmed atm.

Its possible that they are either avoiding Legendaries, or picking one of each, and we just saw the rare first. I mean, so far, the only Legendary cards we have with AA are Pack Raptor from the Kickstarter, and Ozawa from Gencon. Either they don't want to print too many legendary cards as AA, or they want to save them for really big events.

mach
09-12-2014, 06:05 PM
Theorycrafter is a starter deck rare, and is therefore worthless (since you can get one free by creating a new account). Making an AA version allows there to be a version of the card which isn't worthless.

So, a good choice.

Zophie
09-12-2014, 06:05 PM
So I watched that Frost Ring video, and I literally got shivers, zomg I thought I was excited for PVE before, I just reached the next level.

Shaqattaq
09-12-2014, 06:05 PM
I force-refreshed and it still says in lieu *shrug* - also it links to the "Free Tournament This Saturday" thread for the "Discuss this article" link.

It seems like our last website update has slowed how quickly the server pushes those things to users when updated. It'll fix itself with some time.

IndigoShade
09-12-2014, 06:06 PM
Like I said, I'm cool with the Collector's tier AA being a rare card rather than a legendary. That Master Theorycrafter just isn't a card that makes me feel glad that I spent $250 on a collector's tier. I'm not about to start screaming for refunds or anything, just being honest.

Hieronymous
09-12-2014, 06:10 PM
Yeah, especially considering the wait, that's an underwhelming card. It's not bad, it's just. . not what I was hoping for. I hope the other is a chase legendary.

dogmod
09-12-2014, 06:12 PM
Either of the AAs for the VIP tourney would have been massively more exciting than theorycrafter :(.

CZE_Ty
09-12-2014, 06:22 PM
One of the things we like to shoot for with alternate art is the chance to pair our artists with an image that will really speak to their personal style. For example we might have an artist who we realize paints zombies like a boss so we will try to give that person a chance to paint a zombie card. We can tell the same story but with a different flare. This is important so that players at a glance will still be able to identify the card but it strikes you as a premium collector’s item. We also consider how much a card will see play so naturally you’ll find alternate art being created for cards of all different rarities, of course collectors tier backers won’t see commons or uncommons as their reward; I’m speaking in generalities. Taking all these factors into consideration creates a broader landscape of alternate art than can be more widely appreciated in game. I hope this gives you some additional insight into how the team on Hex makes these choices.

Mokog
09-12-2014, 06:40 PM
I think he just told us there is a theory crafter archetype used in the office testing. Time to see if that brews well or if I am reading too much into theory crafter seeing play.

jonsnow2000
09-12-2014, 06:42 PM
Hey, at least the AA is based on a Rare! *snicker*

Seriously though, these cards will be so freaking scarce and valuable regardless what card they are based on. I'm still sad I wasn't liquid enough to grab a Collector's tier last year. As I want to posess at least 1 of each AA in the game, I can only hope I can snag one for a non-crazy price from the AH.

Speaking of price, wanna play a prediction game?

- How much will the AA Theorycrafter go for shortly after release, and how much in the long term (several months or even years)?
- Do you think there will be more players selling them than if they were based on a chase rare?
- What will the 2nd AA from Set 1 be?

My own prediction: on average 2500-3500p after release, 4000-5000p after a few months. 2nd AA will be Zoltog or Te'Talca

L1ght
09-12-2014, 06:43 PM
Speaking as a Collector backer I have to admit I am feeling pretty gutted and disappointed.

Was I expecting that the Collector AA cards would be chase rares / legendaries? Yes I was. Do I think that was a reasonable expectation when compared to say getting an estimated 234 free packs a year (Pro Tier Value $468.00 US Annually)? Yes I do. $250 might not be a lot of money to some people, but to me it was a lot and certainly more than I have ever spent on a computer game. But I believe in HEX and have a passion for this game so I supported it knowing Cory would always take care of those who shared that belief.

With only 6 AA Cards a year, and 3-4 Sets a year, we can expect 2 AA Collector cards~ per set. For Set 1 to get an AA version of a rare card that is available for free in the starter packs as one of the two Set 1 AAs, out of all the cards in the set, is heartbreaking.

Svenn
09-12-2014, 06:56 PM
I can't believe the people expecting the collector AA's to be money cards. Honestly, I wasn't even expecting all rare/legendary originally. No matter what, we're getting special cards that there will only ever be a couple thousand of.

Also, Master Theorycrafter really isn't a bad card at all.

N3rd4Christ
09-12-2014, 07:23 PM
You cant ever please people... Geez

hex_colin
09-12-2014, 07:29 PM
One of the things we like to shoot for with alternate art is the chance to pair our artists with an image that will really speak to their personal style. For example we might have an artist who we realize paints zombies like a boss so we will try to give that person a chance to paint a zombie card. We can tell the same story but with a different flare. This is important so that players at a glance will still be able to identify the card but it strikes you as a premium collector’s item. We also consider how much a card will see play so naturally you’ll find alternate art being created for cards of all different rarities, of course collectors tier backers won’t see commons or uncommons as their reward; I’m speaking in generalities. Taking all these factors into consideration creates a broader landscape of alternate art than can be more widely appreciated in game. I hope this gives you some additional insight into how the team on Hex makes these choices.

Sneaky, sneaky , Ty! ;)

Also, Master Theorycrafter is going to be THE BOMB with all of the artifact and charge love in Set 2. I can't wait to put together a Tier 1 Artifact/Dwarf deck with Theorycrafter front and center. :)

hex_colin
09-12-2014, 07:32 PM
Speaking as a Collector backer I have to admit I am feeling pretty gutted and disappointed.

Was I expecting that the Collector AA cards would be chase rares / legendaries? Yes I was. Do I think that was a reasonable expectation when compared to say getting an estimated 234 free packs a year (Pro Tier Value $468.00 US Annually)? Yes I do. $250 might not be a lot of money to some people, but to me it was a lot and certainly more than I have ever spent on a computer game. But I believe in HEX and have a passion for this game so I supported it knowing Cory would always take care of those who shared that belief.

With only 6 AA Cards a year, and 3-4 Sets a year, we can expect 2 AA Collector cards~ per set. For Set 1 to get an AA version of a rare card that is available for free in the starter packs as one of the two Set 1 AAs, out of all the cards in the set, is heartbreaking.

It doesn't matter what cards they choose - they're going to be really valuable. There are going to be so few playsets available it's not worth thinking about.

L1ght
09-12-2014, 07:44 PM
Alright well I tried to share my honest feelings.

Hopefully the developers are more interested in such feedback then the forum regulars.

I appreciate your point Colin, but not all of us already have 4 of every card in the game for life. So having the AA Collector cards be picked from cards that aren't readily available for free in the starter packs or on the AH for cents, was I thought a reasonable expectation.

mach
09-12-2014, 07:46 PM
It doesn't matter what cards they choose - they're going to be really valuable. There are going to be so few playsets available it's not worth thinking about.

Let's see if you're right. Give us a Plan C collector AA.

hex_colin
09-12-2014, 07:59 PM
Alright well I tried to share my honest feelings.

Hopefully the developers are more interested in such feedback then the forum regulars.

I appreciate your point Colin, but not all of us already have 4 of every card in the game for life. So having the AA Collector cards be picked from cards that aren't readily available for free in the starter packs or on the AH for cents, was I thought a reasonable expectation.

You can think and feel however you like - I'm certainly not trying to say you should think or feel anything specific.

But, a reasonable course of action would be how it plays out. The team can always adjust the cards/rarity as sets progress. Also, you don't know what the second Set 1 AA card is yet... ;)

Assuming each Collector, Grand King, DL, Primal, Immortal, and Producer gets a playset (not even sure if that's the case) there will be a maximum of 1800 playsets of these things in the game... EVER! Spread across a really conservative 250K users gives an ownership rate of 0.72%. People will want playsets of every card in the game - these could be Baby Yetis and they'll be worth serious Platinum.

And, honestly, it was never realistic that the Collector's AA was going to be a source of Tier 1 competitive Legendary cards - they're supposed to be for a different demographic (the collector rather than the Tier 1 competitor).

Chiany
09-12-2014, 08:01 PM
I don't need money cards to be used for the collectors AA.
And don't even need (and/or want) it to be a Legendary one, and that's coming from someone with 2 Collector and 1 GK tier.

And Colin's words made me even happier, since what's better than having an AA card that's rare?
Right, playing with it!

Hieronymous
09-12-2014, 08:07 PM
I can't believe the people expecting the collector AA's to be money cards. Honestly, I wasn't even expecting all rare/legendary originally. No matter what, we're getting special cards that there will only ever be a couple thousand of.

Also, Master Theorycrafter really isn't a bad card at all.


I'm fairly sure they stated that the collector tier cards would be rare or legendary and among the best cards in the set.

Master Theorycrafter isn't a bad card at all, no, but since it's also available in the starter packs, and isn't part of any major meta deck in the current meta, it's going to be of limited value -- it's a decent niche rare and all, but it's hardly the sort of value that makes people go "wow, yeah, I'm glad I paid an extra $130." Keep in mind that this was the same tier as Pro Player, free-draft-a-week-for-life; it's not exactly unreasonable to expect valuable cards.

Of course there are a lot of dwarf cards in the next set so maybe it's a better long-term value. Hard to say. I'm not saying it's a bad card or anything, just that given what we know at the moment it seems a little disappointing, especially given the long wait.

Chiany
09-12-2014, 08:15 PM
If I had to guess what the 2nd set one AA will be, I hope it's Xarlox.

Not the most powerfull rare (like Soul Marble for example) but still very decent.
And I never liked the current art ;)

dogmod
09-12-2014, 08:34 PM
Sounds like from the hints that the second AA will be Zombie Plague. Sneaky sneaky ty and colin.

syphonhail
09-12-2014, 08:37 PM
The Theorycrafter AA is pretty cool. The one thing that would make this an amazing card is if he spawn AA war bots. Not sure if he does, but that alone would ramp his value quite a bit.

N3rd4Christ
09-12-2014, 08:39 PM
The Theorycrafter AA is pretty cool. The one thing that would make this an amazing card is if he spawn AA war bots. Not sure if he does, but that alone would ramp his value quite a bit.

Awesome idea.

Glae
09-12-2014, 08:54 PM
An incomplete playset for an alternate art of a garbage rare from the free starter set is very disappointing. 18 cards of this quality per year is definitely not the equivalent of 5200 Platinum and 156 packs per year that the Pro tier got for the same price. Was I expecting AA Angel of Dawn? No... but I thought some thing like Cerulean Mentalist or Living Totem would be on the table. Both the VIP cards are ones I would have been very happy with as well.

That said... the art *is* much nicer. I just wish I didn't bother wasting money on a collector tier atm. :( The only reason these will be valuable at all is for the people who got 3 copies who desperately want a 4th so this card can sit in their card manager and collect virtual dust.

And we still haven't heard when posters are going on sale.

hammer
09-12-2014, 09:55 PM
I love the art on the Alternate Master Theorycrafter. It wasn't the Boom I was expecting or hoping for to start the Collector tier (especially after the long hype aka year delay:p). I do understand the frustration of a free to play starter deck rare as the choice. I think expectations were raised by the tier 1 playables (Xenthoth and Gralk) AA in the VIP tournaments. Remember the rewards in this tier are aimed at a difference audience, the Collector and not the competitive pvp player. I am really happy with the flavour and art and will play these in the proving grounds to show them off. The equipment (if unchanged) doubles the number of bots so will be super fun and powerful. For those complaining about the "value" - remember there are two copies of veteran gladiator in the Orc Starter Deck yet the AA Veteran Gladiator (from wheels of fate) routinely sells on the Auction House for 400+platinuim. Collector already got insane value and it will continue to receive 12 AA cards per year, if they are all as good as this then the value over king tier ($250-$120 ie $130) will soon be realised; not forgetting double Lotus Garden (!) a year of drafts (!) - Collector is still a boss tier and I am glad to have had the opportunity to have backed at that level.

Aradon
09-12-2014, 10:23 PM
I preferred the original art over this alt art, but that's fine with me. I can understand the disappointment over being such a readily-available card, and would suggest staying away from starter-set rares in the future. I'm a bit baffled over all the comments about how he's trash, though. Stick him with the damage gem and he's an amazing finisher, for five mana. Not quite on the level of Xentoth's Inquisitor or Eldritch Dreamer, I suppose, but respectable in his own right, and who knows how useful he'll become in PvE. I'm pretty happy with the choice, overall.

I concur with the mild speculation about the second one being Zombie Plague, which is a bit of a bummer to me and I hope I'm mistaken. That card's never really interested me, but I bet it'll be a hit with some other people.

dogmod
09-12-2014, 10:31 PM
Yeah. We have been clamoring for the collector's AA for so long so I think the response should be a little bit more excited. I am stoked that they are finally making good on their promise. I think some of the initial negativity was because it's a starter deck card, it is not currently a Tier 1 deck card.

I am very happy and this is obviously a step in the right direction in terms of delivering on the Kickstarter promises.

(But damn if the art on Gralk isn't a ton better)

FoundInTheFlood
09-12-2014, 11:05 PM
I think I read about it twice already, so sorry, but what is a "Arena" compared to real PVE that we saw in Corys Video from Gamescom?

Can s1 explain "how much PVE" Arena is? And why it's not the same as those other PVEs?

Yoss
09-12-2014, 11:38 PM
I can't believe the people expecting the collector AA's to be money cards. Honestly, I wasn't even expecting all rare/legendary originally.

Sums up my expectations from the KS. I was continually shocked by people who said Collector was going to turn out to be the best tier, monetarily speaking. (Hint: none of them are strictly better unless you oversimplify matters down to mere money. Collector tier is pretty cool if you're into that sort of thing.)


We have been clamoring for the collector's AA for so long so I think the response should be a little bit more excited. I am stoked that they are finally making good on their promise.

Yeah, kind of a bummer to not hear excitement from the group. Then again, since the starter decks STILL aren't soulbound, it means that as soon as open beta hits every single card in the starters will drop to the price floor. (People will just make accounts to sell the starter.)


Can s1 explain "how much PVE" Arena is? And why it's not the same as those other PVEs?

Arena will basically just be unveiling the new AI and core PvE systems (equipment, loot, probably chest opening, etc). I believe the story will be pretty minimal and you'll just run a gauntlet of AI matches for loot. That just based on my old-man memory though.

benczi
09-13-2014, 12:06 AM
As a Collector I want AA cards that are played. What good is a super cool AA card if I never get to play with it?

Chiany
09-13-2014, 12:14 AM
As a Collector I want AA cards that are played. What good is a super cool AA card if I never get to play with it?

You Collect it?

The name of the tier kinda gives it away...

benczi
09-13-2014, 12:26 AM
So how many real life collectors do you know that are collecting junk? How many have you ever heard of?


Edit: ok, this is a stupid question, since the answer is all of us, we're all 'collecting' digital data that would represent cardboard crack, with absolutely no intrinsic value whatsoever.

Still you don't bait a kid with you'll get 6 shiny toys each year that you can be totally excited about, and then give him a not so shiny toy that you also give, in another color, to just about everyone who visits.

Khendral
09-13-2014, 12:31 AM
So how many real life collectors do you know that are collecting junk? How many have you ever heard of?
Diogenes

FoundInTheFlood
09-13-2014, 01:02 AM
Diogenes

Made my day :D

2289

FoundInTheFlood
09-13-2014, 01:03 AM
PS: Can we have a Diogenes tunnel? Or a Diogenes barrel? :D

Please include some lovely-strange philosophy-dungeon ;D

Jinxies
09-13-2014, 01:57 AM
Personally I don't mind the Theorycrafter being the first AA card. It certainly not the best rare in the set but it's fine and more importantly the AA is gorgeous.

Glae
09-13-2014, 02:01 AM
Ooh. I hope we get Hero of Adamanth next. /s

Lockon
09-13-2014, 02:02 AM
Wow, half awesome, PVE Arena coming in with an Ice theme, something I personally like, and the not-so-awesome, AA of a card that didn't really NEED an AA, I mean, come on, how is this doofy looking piece of junk supposed to be considered equal to the mad genius world conqueror vibe you get from the normal art? Seriously, this just makes him look like a doofus, all hopping about like a moron on his bots, the master theorycrafter shouldn't NEED to do his own dirty work, that's what underlings and worker bots are for.

Also, junk rare? I'm sorry, have we been playing the same card? That Major Socket is what makes this guy awesome, as he's either burning your opponent to death or simply applying constant pressure through on-hit card draw War Bots, either forcing trades or opening up holes in the enemies defense. Is he the best card? No, he's still rather easily dealt with for his high cost, all the standard removal outside of Inner Conflict and Repel will take him, but the same can be said of both AOD and Vampire Lord, and you don't see anyone calling THEM junk, now do you? Ludicrous, absolutely ludicrous.

Glae
09-13-2014, 02:17 AM
He's a "trash rare" because the card has no value. The starter set flooding the AH means the normal version isn't even wanted. The AA will be more valuable to be sure.. but the floor is being set so low by the fact that ~1/4 hex players have a copy. More if you count KS. And once open beta hits he sinks to zero platinum instantly.

Sure, he's very acceptable in limited. But can anyone name the last time this guy was in a tournament deck that did anything? VIP AAs are two highly sought after rare cards that fit into multiple decks. I was expecting the same for the Collector tier, not starter set dregs. If there was gonna be a a rare from the starter set, it should have been Gorefeast.

At least that card gets played.

Chiany
09-13-2014, 02:17 AM
Is he the best card? No, he's still rather easily dealt with for his high cost, all the standard removal outside of Inner Conflict and Repel will take him, but the same can be said of both AOD and Vampire Lord, and you don't see anyone calling THEM junk, now do you? Ludicrous, absolutely ludicrous.

I get your point, but you can't compare this card to AOD or VL.

Let's just wait and see what the 2nd AA will be.

hammer
09-13-2014, 03:17 AM
That Gwaer guy, whoever he is, ran two copies of Master Theorycrafter Main deck in the July Hextcgpro top 8 http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/deck=7874

L1ght
09-13-2014, 03:35 AM
This has made feel like shit all day long.

So much for an exciting first look at whats in store for Collectors.

Lafoote
09-13-2014, 04:08 AM
So many pages of woe that the $25 card you're getting a stack of isn't the $25 card you wanted. At least you're getting something. As a DC/RL my stuff is like some ancient prophesy, as yet unfulfilled.

While we still don't have a timetable on the arena, they are suggesting it's close. This is exciting for a couple reasons. First, the promise of the arena itself. Quoth Smash TV, "BIG money, BIG prizes, I LOVE IT!" Second, the release of the arena will needfully coincide with the addition of a more treacherous and skillful AI. It will be wonderful to test and tweak decks vs. a competent AI before giving them a spin vs. live opponents. This will be a most welcome, and needed advancement.

Lockon
09-13-2014, 04:11 AM
If the AI actually is good.

Yes, I'm STILL not optimistic about the legendary "Skynet," especially not for it's debut. Even if they make it as good as they want by release, I can tell you, it's probably not going to work right or even very well on it's first day.

Poetic
09-13-2014, 04:15 AM
As a double Collector backer who's getting 4 of each collector AA, I'm fine with the 1st card. It's the 1st card, we're getting these for the life of the game. They will always have value, especially if the game gets big. They told us the AAs would be rare/legendary. Expecting each one to be a chase card every time is silly.

ronwac
09-13-2014, 04:28 AM
Maybe the fact that it's an Ice-Themed dungeon means they plan on a Winter release? I mean Shattered Destiny, Open Beta, and Trading should in all likelihood be implemented beforehand, which could take up the bulk of the next two-three months considering the rate features have been coming out, along with subsequent bug fixes. I'm also curious if they will implement a way to test various PvE related features--Chest Opening, Equipment, and Mercenaries--at some point in time before the dungeon is officially lost, since most of the critical focus of the dungeon experience will likely be the AI and overall difficulty.

As far as the Collector Tier card being Master Theorycrafter, I think it's appropriate. I always saw Pro Player Tier as the competitive PvP Tier and the Guild Master/Dungeon Crawler as the PvE Tier. Collector was the Tier I wanted because for Highlander you could run the weird exclusive cards, and it always struck me as that I guess. I figured they'd pick more off-cuff cards for Alternate Art on Collector, like Cosmic Transmorgifyer or Shrine of Prosperity.

Xenavire
09-13-2014, 04:59 AM
Just putting it out there - any collectors who are unhappy, feel free to pass those cards my way...

Especially if Zombie Plague is coming. I am not a fan of the original art at all, but I love the effect - if theres an AA exclusive to collectors, I wouldn't say no to having it. (I hope Zombie Plague is open to more players though, its a playable card, with pretty bleh art. I am sure many people would want to upgrade.)

MugenMusou
09-13-2014, 05:32 AM
Though Colin's point of the actual rarity for the card is certainly true i.e. limited in number on the market, based on the other TCG, the art alone does not make the cards completely valuable. For example, Magic sells original art which every single card have only one copy of, but the prices on those are so different. If we go off by the rareness of the existence, then they should be similar.

Having said all this, I do also see a point of Cryptozoic should not be making perhaps the most expensive rare with AA limited to collector as such card probably would be so expensive on the market, non-collector tier backers (majority of player) would feel such disadvantage when comes to collection.

My main disappointment came from the expectation from other AA I have seen so far. For instance, I don't have one but the AA of Ozawa looked cool and it is legendary. Also, princess Victoria alternate art looked so much better than generic one. But maybe these are just subjective, and some may love this alternate art. I would have been much more happier if the AA was Shin'hare....

fido_one
09-13-2014, 06:40 AM
One of the things we like to shoot for with alternate art is the chance to pair our artists with an image that will really speak to their personal style. For example we might have an artist who we realize paints zombies like a boss so we will try to give that person a chance to paint a zombie card. We can tell the same story but with a different flare. This is important so that players at a glance will still be able to identify the card but it strikes you as a premium collectorís item. We also consider how much a card will see play so naturally youíll find alternate art being created for cards of all different rarities, of course collectors tier backers wonít see commons or uncommons as their reward; Iím speaking in generalities. Taking all these factors into consideration creates a broader landscape of alternate art than can be more widely appreciated in game. I hope this gives you some additional insight into how the team on Hex makes these choices.

I have absolutely no idea what other collectors are complaining about. This quote right here means collector tier people will be more than OK through the [hopefully long] life of Hex. If they go by this guiding principle than over a set of time we'll get consistently awesome looking AA cards. That's what'll ultimately raise value of these cards, a series of rares/legendaries that over the years will offer consistently good looking/awesome art.

Master Theorycrafter is a great intro - it's a super useful card and it's almost universally recognized by new and veteran players. Oh yeah, the art is delicious and speaks to the statement above (though shout out for whomever thought that the spawn bot should be AA, that would be an awesome trick).

For those hating, stop looking at this card - look at this statement and ask yourself what is going to make the AA collector cards as a whole be bad-ass over 2/3/5/15+ years? Consistent awesome art by artists who can go hog-wild on their specialty.

Check out some of Zolton's other work here: http://boros-szikszai.com/ (CZE, as you release more AAs could you link to the Artist's portfolio? It'd be nice to read up on each artist from a site they think is most representative of their work).

For those saying value != Pro Player, come on, it's never been about that, you'll make up your 250 investment in the first year easy, and if you're really concerned about beating pro player value, feel free to gripe about it if it's true in 5 years when you see how this all shakes out. For those that got a Collector tier with monetary value in mind, you should know that it was/is going to be a long, long time before you see if your gamble was successful or not.

benczi
09-13-2014, 06:59 AM
It seems to me that many non Collector tier players are missing the point of why we are being sad and disappointed.


It's like telling us old kids that we'll get 6 shiny toys each year that we can be totally excited about. We see the other kids on the block who got pro player toys, they have been enjoying their toys for the better part of the year, getting their collections along each week for free. We see the other kids on the block that didn't get their toys yet, but there are promises that they will be great toys and they can be excited about them. And then there is the announcement of the toy we are receiving it's not so shiny a toy, and also every other visitor also gets this same toy, and we can't really play with it either.

fido_one
09-13-2014, 07:09 AM
It seems to me that many non Collector tier players are missing the point of why we are being sad and disappointed.


It's like telling us old kids that we'll get 6 shiny toys each year that we can be totally excited about. We see the other kids on the block who got pro player toys, they have been enjoying their toys for the better part of the year, getting their collections along each week for free. We see the other kids on the block that didn't get their toys yet, but there are promises that they will be great toys and they can be excited about them. And then there is the announcement of the toy we are receiving it's not so shiny a toy, and also every other visitor also gets this same toy, and we can't really play with it either.

I don't agree Benczi. Regarding 'every other visitor also gets the same toy' implies that we were to get new cards entirely. They are AA cards, we always knew that, and this MT is exclusive to us, so it's not something that other people get to play with (unless we sale or trade it to them). Which art is better is always in the eye of the beholder (personally I think the original MT art is badass! I think this new art is better still), but the exclusivity is the exact same as when you signed up for it, that hasn't changed with this reveal.

Saying 'the toy I was promised isn't shiny' isn't a great example, really what you are saying is 'I don't like the toy I was promised' <- the former acts as if this could be a objective thing when in reality it's almost completely subjective. And that's fine! I will never expect a uniform reaction from the collectors nor should you - I'm quite confident there will be some collector AA cards I hate while the majority thinks they are awesomesauce. So is the way of the collector tier.

We're still getting some amazing stuff, we're still the few and the proud that were able to get in on it - if you don't like the AA MT card, be patient and something will come your way that will get you more excited at some point.

L1ght
09-13-2014, 08:00 AM
The problem I have with that statement is that apparently how they choose Collector tier AA has absolutely nothing to do with the meta, popular cards, the rarity of the card, the value of the card or even what cards people actually wanted. If you look back at the many, many lists of what cards people wanted to see for Collectors Tier I doubt you will find anyone who said Master Theorycrafter.

Also I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that Collector tier players don't play competitively and don't want Tier 1 cards that they might actually use in a deck. What the hell is the point of a AA card if you can't play it / show it off?

Speaking for myself I bought Collector tier with NO intention of selling of the cards. I want to PLAY with them - it's a game remember. A competitive game where the whole idea is to win. To me playability should have been the Number 1 consideration, and to be playable they need to be from a Tier 1 deck. Which is why I and seemingly alot of other people expected we would see chase rares / legendaries and why we are disappointed we got an underwhelming AA version of a free starter card that sees little play.

benczi
09-13-2014, 08:03 AM
I sure hope so, Zombie Plague AA would be great, it was the card I was most excited about last year (before they changed it true :P), but right now, there is very little to be excited about.


And then come the bigger kids telling us to shut up and be exited about the toy we are getting, cuz it has a different color, and maybe in 5-10 years it will be worth ... something. They already have all the toys from the other blocks as well, so it's real easy to say they are satisfied and why can't we enjoy the same toy? and we can and should just wait until something more exciting comes along.

Chiany
09-13-2014, 08:08 AM
It seems to me that many non Collector tier players are missing the point of why we are being sad and disappointed.


It's like telling us old kids that we'll get 6 shiny toys each year that we can be totally excited about. We see the other kids on the block who got pro player toys, they have been enjoying their toys for the better part of the year, getting their collections along each week for free. We see the other kids on the block that didn't get their toys yet, but there are promises that they will be great toys and they can be excited about them. And then there is the announcement of the toy we are receiving it's not so shiny a toy, and also every other visitor also gets this same toy, and we can't really play with it either.


How wrong can you be...

A) what we get is a shiny toy (it's just not shiny enough for YOU)
B) not every other visitor gets the same toy, only a select group gets this specific toy
C) you can play with it just fine, but you only want to play with the shiniest toys

bootlace
09-13-2014, 08:37 AM
Collectors will get plenty of value from their KS rewards, I don't believe the whining is really justified. First of all an extra Spectral Lotus is HUGE. Not only the Lotus itself (which I could see selling for $100) but the card that it creates which could sell for $0.30 per - coming to about $100 profit per year.

Then you get about 7 extra KS exclusive mercenaries on top - all of these are extremely valuable and could total $200.

Then you get about 17 extra copies of exclusive KS PvE cards and PvP AA cards - using a conservative estimate of $10 per card that's another $170.

The 12 AA's will fetch minimum $200 per year and this number will probably only increase as the years pass to potentially much more.

So you have $300 recurring income every year with assets nearing $500. Pro Players in comparison get a free draft ((~$1.5 pack x 3 + $1 entry) * 52) = $286. Don't even get me started on the other tiers who won't get nearly that much monetary boost from their rewards.

Edit: Do Collector's get 2 copies of each AA card (so 12 per year?) then it would be even more value.

Edit 2: Changed above to reflet 12 AA cards per year.

fido_one
09-13-2014, 08:39 AM
I sure hope so, Zombie Plague AA would be great, it was the card I was most excited about last year (before they changed it true :P), but right now, there is very little to be excited about.


And then come the bigger kids telling us to shut up and be exited about the toy we are getting, cuz it has a different color, and maybe in 5-10 years it will be worth ... something. They already have all the toys from the other blocks as well, so it's real easy to say they are satisfied and why can't we enjoy the same toy? and we can and should just wait until something more exciting comes along.

Seriously? Bigger kids? Dude - you're one of the biggest kids on the block. Not a lot of people got a collector tier. You bought a Ferrarri at a rock bottom price and then you are trying to make arguments that other people are bringing you down because they aren't resonating with your complaint that the Ferrarri sucks because it isn't in your specific color of teal.

hammer
09-13-2014, 08:52 AM
Collectors will get plenty of value from their KS rewards, I don't believe the whining is really justified. First of all an extra Spectral Lotus is HUGE. Not only the Lotus itself (which I could see selling for $100) but the card that it creates which could sell for $0.30 per - coming to about $100 profit per year.

Then you get about 7 extra KS exclusive mercenaries on top - all of these are extremely valuable and could total $200.

Then you get about 17 extra copies of exclusive KS PvE cards and PvP AA cards - using a conservative estimate of $10 per card that's another $170.

The 6 AA's will fetch minimum $100 per year and this number will probably only increase as the years pass to potentially much more.

So you have $200 recurring income every year with assets nearing $500. Pro Players in comparison get a free draft ((~$1.5 pack x 3 + $1 entry) * 52) = $286. Don't even get me started on the other tiers who won't get nearly that much monetary boost from their rewards.

Wait - collectors get extra mercenaries where is the source for this please?

bootlace
09-13-2014, 08:59 AM
Wait - collectors get extra mercenaries where is the source for this please?

"A second set of all exclusive cards from the King level."

Mercenaries are described as PvE Mercenary Card so I thought they would be included.

Chiany
09-13-2014, 09:17 AM
"A second set of all exclusive cards from the King level."

Mercenaries are described as PvE Mercenary Card so I thought they would be included.

Mercenaries aren't cards, so I doubt we will get double.

hammer
09-13-2014, 09:20 AM
Hopefully our commity manager can clarify ;)

NoahBuddy
09-13-2014, 09:22 AM
"A second set of all exclusive cards from the King level."

Mercenaries are described as PvE Mercenary Card so I thought they would be included.

Also AA cards are not exclusive to the king tier. at this point i'm cconfused about how many AA cards collectors will recieve.

edit: i see, so the "A second set of all exclusive cards from the King level" is the extinctions, victorias, ragefires etc. it is not the 6 AA a year from the collector tier.

hammer
09-13-2014, 09:30 AM
Also AA cards are not exclusive to the king tier. at this point i'm cconfused about how many AA cards collectors will recieve.

edit: i see, so the "A second set of all exclusive cards from the King level" is the extinctions, victorias, ragefires etc. it is not the 6 AA a year from the collector tier.

Kickstarter - update 16

"Question: Can the +1 Reward at the 660K tier apply to The Collector Tier yearly exclusive alternate art PVP cards?

That makes sense. Yes, enjoy!

So, the 660K +1 tier reward now also includes Kickstarter exclusive PVP rewards and the Collector yearly alternate art PVP cards
"
It says "yearly" so its 2x6 every year not just 2x6 in year 1 at least that's my interpretation.

Chiany
09-13-2014, 09:40 AM
Kickstarter - update 16

It says "yearly" so its 2x6 every year not just 2x6 in year 1 at least that's my interpretation.

Yeah, that's how I read it too.

English may not be my native language, but I don't see why else they would use the word yearly.

DocX
09-13-2014, 10:12 AM
The 12 AA's will fetch minimum $200 per year and this number will probably only increase as the years pass to potentially much more.

How about this. I'll sell you my 12 AAs for a year straight up for $200. If you think it's a good deal, put your money where your mouth is.

I'm a Grand King backer so, while I'm not rolling in bonuses like Colin, I do have an idea of how much I appreciate the benefits of each tier. Right now, Pro Player's pretty much got everything else beat with the draft tickets. This will change when PVE comes out and again once guilds are in place (I'm very much looking forward to bonus drops and running dungeons with my buddies), but from a pure collectible standpoint I'll have gotten much, much, MUCH more value from being able to fill out my play set in the drafts than I will from the AAs.

But, feel free to prove me wrong. I'd be happy to exchange 20000 platinum for my 12 AAs straight up. That means each AA is worth roughly as much as an Angel of Dawn. 12 AAs for 12 Angel of Dawns (or plat equivalent)? Every day and twice on Sundays.

You game, bootlace?

Aradon
09-13-2014, 10:33 AM
Without sources, but: Mercenaries are not cards, and they were intended to be one per account. They specifically are not doubled for the collector tier. Since they clarified this, mercenaries have undergone some revisions. I expect it holds true still, but its possible they change their minds. I believe last we heard, combining KS pledges would not grant multiple mercs either.
As posted above, Collectors receive two of each AA card, for a total of twelve cards per year.

I think currently collectors feel a bit unhappy because we haven't been getting the cards at the full rate yet. Once sets are coming out on schedule, I think we'll find that 6 unique promos a year is more than enough to accept some misses.

fido_one
09-13-2014, 10:40 AM
I think currently collectors feel a bit unhappy because we haven't been getting the cards at the full rate yet. Once sets are coming out on schedule, I think we'll find that 6 unique promos a year is more than enough to accept some misses.

Yeah, I have been surprised/frustrated that it has taken this long for the first Collector AA to come about. Is it going to appear in the next patch, sooner, or when the other set 1 AA is revealed?

bootlace
09-13-2014, 11:09 AM
How about this. I'll sell you my 12 AAs for a year straight up for $200. If you think it's a good deal, put your money where your mouth is.

I'm a Grand King backer so, while I'm not rolling in bonuses like Colin, I do have an idea of how much I appreciate the benefits of each tier. Right now, Pro Player's pretty much got everything else beat with the draft tickets. This will change when PVE comes out and again once guilds are in place (I'm very much looking forward to bonus drops and running dungeons with my buddies), but from a pure collectible standpoint I'll have gotten much, much, MUCH more value from being able to fill out my play set in the drafts than I will from the AAs.

But, feel free to prove me wrong. I'd be happy to exchange 20000 platinum for my 12 AAs straight up. That means each AA is worth roughly as much as an Angel of Dawn. 12 AAs for 12 Angel of Dawns (or plat equivalent)? Every day and twice on Sundays.

You game, bootlace?

I don't think the $200 prediction I made for 12 AA cards is anything ridiculous, just go to the AH and check AA cards prices from KS exclusive tiers: they'll be in the $15 range and that's at this very early stage in the game's life when most players in the game probably already have access to those AAs. You make even rarer AAs (in quantity available) and introduce a bunch of new players to the game and I think it's a fair estimate.

Not interesting in AA cards or dropping another $200 into the game but I'll blindly buy the next AA card you guys get for 1667 plat ($200/12) to 'put my money where my mouth is'. Deal?

rjselzler
09-13-2014, 11:43 AM
It's like telling us old kids that we'll get 6 shiny toys each year that we can be totally excited about. We see the other kids on the block who got pro player toys, they have been enjoying their toys for the better part of the year, getting their collections along each week for free. We see the other kids on the block that didn't get their toys yet, but there are promises that they will be great toys and they can be excited about them. And then there is the announcement of the toy we are receiving it's not so shiny a toy, and also every other visitor also gets this same toy, and we can't really play with it either.

...and the mutant, Dungeon Crawler kid is locked up in the attic with nothing but fish heads to eat? :D

Weighing in as a Collector backer: this is fine to me. Sell your AA cards and get be pseudo-Pro Player if this just reaaaaaaaaly irks you; I'd imagine even the jankiest Collector promo will bring in 2-3k plat; some will probably be much more. Collector is solidly the second-best tier and will be more so the longer the game goes on. I missed Pro Player by a day, and truly wish I had backed at that level, but Collector is just fine, presuming they push out even somewhat-playable (Theorycrafter is that) rares.

Once PvE is in, I see the value of these super-exclusive, playable shinies skyrocketing; see transmog madness in WoW as a benchmark if you don't think so. The MMO crowd will go to absurd lengths to get slightly-different-looking equipment/cards/sleeves, etc.

fido_one
09-13-2014, 12:21 PM
I don't think the $200 prediction I made for 12 AA cards is anything ridiculous, just go to the AH and check AA cards prices from KS exclusive tiers: they'll be in the $15 range and that's at this very early stage in the game's life when most players in the game probably already have access to those AAs. You make even rarer AAs (in quantity available) and introduce a bunch of new players to the game and I think it's a fair estimate.

Not interesting in AA cards or dropping another $200 into the game but I'll blindly buy the next AA card you guys get for 1667 plat ($200/12) to 'put my money where my mouth is'. Deal?

I think that is a fair response from Bootlace and calls your gamble/bluff. I'll pick up the AA card after that for 1667 plat if you are still game DocX.

Glae
09-13-2014, 04:14 PM
Exactly. The idea that this card would sell for over $16 is frankly laughable.

Just because you see Rage fires and Pack Raptors on the AH for like $40 doesn't mean they sell anyway near to that price. AA Extinction isn't even going for $16.

Aradon
09-13-2014, 04:40 PM
Well, the AA extinctions are going to be about five times rarer than the AA collector cards, though. (Rough estimates from the KS tiers. It looks like about half the backers were at the $65+ tiers, whereas only ~2000 backers are collector tier or higher.) I don't think this particular card is going to go for higher than $20, but I suspect the second card for this set, and many future ones, will indeed go for higher.

In other terms, I wouldn't feel comfortable selling mine for 1700 plat, whatever it ends up being.

fido_one
09-13-2014, 05:11 PM
Well, the AA extinctions are going to be about five times rarer than the AA collector cards, though. (Rough estimates from the KS tiers. It looks like about half the backers were at the $65+ tiers, whereas only ~2000 backers are collector tier or higher.) I don't think this particular card is going to go for higher than $20, but I suspect the second card for this set, and many future ones, will indeed go for higher.

In other terms, I wouldn't feel comfortable selling mine for 1700 plat, whatever it ends up being.

I think you meant the other way around - AA collector cards will be about 5 times rarer than the AA Extinctions.

I don't know what they will sell for but again I'm with bootlace, I'll buy some collector AAs for 1667 from people like DocX who are confident that they'll continually be rubbish for value.

Aradon
09-13-2014, 05:24 PM
Yes, sorry, I am keyboard good

Glae
09-13-2014, 06:27 PM
Lol. Okay. I will sell all of mine for 1600 plat to people who insist this is a fair price they are willing to pay.

Chadatog
09-13-2014, 06:38 PM
Update title needs to be changed from "Stay Frosty" to "Stay Salty"

Beowolve
09-13-2014, 11:03 PM
As a Collector Tier Kickstarter, I am disappointed in the choice of card for the AA, Collectors paid the same as Pro (weekly free drafts for life) and I was hoping for like some previous posters mentioned taking a prime card (legendary or high value) and making that the collectors, oh well.

Beowolve
09-13-2014, 11:09 PM
As a double Collector backer who's getting 4 of each collector AA, I'm fine with the 1st card. It's the 1st card, we're getting these for the life of the game. They will always have value, especially if the game gets big. They told us the AAs would be rare/legendary. Expecting each one to be a chase card every time is silly.

First reveal could have at least been a chase card though.....

Lockon
09-13-2014, 11:19 PM
Or an actually interesting Alternate Art, I mean, who would even WANT to run this version over the other for anything other than the "Sold Gold Cellphone" effect? I mean, of all the cards that could use an alternate art, Master Theorycrafter wasn't even on the list, you could of grabbed one that actually WANTED one, instead of the perfectly solid Theorycrafter. Heck, could take Gore Feast and make it a little more interesting than it's standard art. I mean, it's a bunch of dude's charging at you, hooray, like I haven't seen THAT five million times. I don't know what you could do to make it more interesting, incorporate the Arena into it somehow maybe, I dunno, that's why I'm not an artist.

Vorsa
09-14-2014, 09:12 AM
Not to be a misery-monger, but for information/expectation-tempering:

"The AA VIP benefit rewards for the month of September will be inserted into accounts after the next patch."
= Next month for the next patch.

Previously
Re: Pre-Open-Beta 12 month VIP offer
"This changes has to be patched into the game, we’ll release more information to when that patch will be coming."

Previously
Cory @ Games Com w/ BoardGameGeek
A few weeks between Open Beta and set 2.
Cory @ E3
"Many of you asked why we would release information about Set 2 before releasing PVE. Simply, TCGs require reliable, scheduled new cards in order to keep the game going."

So the 'happy path' is now:
1. Patch adding VIP rewards and limited time offer = 1st week of October
2. Open beta = 3rd week of October
3. Set 2 = Mid-November
4. PvE = December

Might not be a bad plan to work on a plan B if you are on the edge of your seat for either of those big updates, as they are a ways off and only one slippage away from 2015.
(My backup are Shadows of Mordor & Dragon Age: Inquisition. :))

nickon
09-14-2014, 12:55 PM
I dont have any backups, hex is all I want and need!! :o

warstriker
09-15-2014, 01:20 AM
I am a very disappointed Collector Backer. Why not one of the dragons or the angel or one of the other rare competitive cards. I expected Cory to blow us away with these super rare cards but now we get a card that isn't even used in set 1 competitive decks. Very sad panda here.

Chiany
09-15-2014, 01:55 AM
I am a very disappointed Collector Backer. Why not one of the dragons or the angel or one of the other rare competitive cards. I expected Cory to blow us away with these super rare cards but now we get a card that isn't even used in set 1 competitive decks. Very sad panda here.

You do realize the name of the tier is COLLECTOR, not GIEF ME TIER 1 CARDS?

L1ght
09-15-2014, 02:15 AM
You do realize the name of the tier is COLLECTOR, not GIEF ME TIER 1 CARDS?

Why would anyone want to collect cards that just gather dust? And not even dust, digital dust.

Collector Tier is all about collecting unique cards so you can PLAY with them and feel like your special as a thankyou for being one of those people who contributed generously to support HEX when it needed our help. If they give us cards that aren't from Tier 1 decks, they wont see play. It's that simple.

That's why people are gutted to see that the first big reveal, after a year of anticipation, is an underwhelming card that sees little constructed play & is available for free from the starter decks. Not to mention the pretty unepic art.

And so what if they gave us an AA top top Tier card? Angel of Dawn is what $10-15? Pro Tier get that much value sent to their account every fortnight and have been enjoying privilege for months now.

Chiany
09-15-2014, 03:20 AM
Why would anyone want to collect cards that just gather dust? And not even dust, digital dust.

Collector Tier is all about collecting unique cards so you can PLAY with them and feel like your special as a thankyou for being one of those people who contributed generously to support HEX when it needed our help. If they give us cards that aren't from Tier 1 decks, they wont see play. It's that simple.

That's why people are gutted to see that the first big reveal, after a year of anticipation, is an underwhelming card that sees little constructed play & is available for free from the starter decks. Not to mention the pretty unepic art.

And so what if they gave us an AA top top Tier card? Angel of Dawn is what $10-15? Pro Tier get that much value sent to their account every fortnight and have been enjoying privilege for months now.

So, you never play a casual game with your friends for example?

Your loss I guess.

Maybe I'm the only collector who doesn't mind that THIS ONE CARD, isn't a tier one card.

Jinxies
09-15-2014, 04:11 AM
So, you never play a casual game with your friends for example?

Your loss I guess.

Maybe I'm the only collector who doesn't mind that THIS ONE CARD, isn't a tier one card.

Yeah as long as some of them are tier one cards I'm fine, I don't mind them being a bit all over the place when it comes to power level.

Warrender
09-15-2014, 04:42 AM
Just my opinion as a non-KS'er so take it with a grain of salt. Playable AA's should be rewarded where more people have a shot at them like the VIP tourneys.

fido_one
09-15-2014, 05:44 AM
So, you never play a casual game with your friends for example?

Your loss I guess.

Maybe I'm the only collector who doesn't mind that THIS ONE CARD, isn't a tier one card.

You're not. I'm with you on this one and I think a lot of other people are too.

Bullet points here:
-Some collectors will like and use this card.
-Some collectors will not like and use this card.

Such is the way of EACH CARD of the collector tier. It will always be this way. For those who do not like the card, I'd suggest selling it. If your argument is it doesn't reach the insane values you had dreamed of, tough, buying into this tier was a gamble and you definitely should have known that. If you thought that this tier was going to be more monetary value than the pro tier you may very well have been deluding yourself (or not, who knows), but you still got some good darn value for your tier.

Final bullet points:
For those saying they don't like this card - all cool, do your thing.
For those saying they like this card - all cool, do your thing.
For those saying the collector tier is rubbish because of this card - not cool brah, you need to chill and be patient as you should have known the risks going into this tier's specific set of rewards.

warstriker
09-15-2014, 06:45 AM
You do realize the name of the tier is COLLECTOR, not GIEF ME TIER 1 CARDS?

The problem is that Cory gave me the feeling he would give all the kickstarter tiers the most value that they possibly can have. I also assumed that they waited this long to announce the Collector tier cards because they wanted to see how the meta would develop and how the different cards would be valued before announcing it. Maybe I was wrong assuming all of these things but that's why I feel disappointed about this card. I won't whine about it or love the game any less but I really wanted to give my opinion about this.

Chiany
09-15-2014, 06:59 AM
The problem is that Cory gave me the feeling he would give all the kickstarter tiers the most value that they possibly can have. I also assumed that they waited this long to announce the Collector tier cards because they wanted to see how the meta would develop and how the different cards would be valued before announcing it. Maybe I was wrong assuming all of these things but that's why I feel disappointed about this card. I won't whine about it or love the game any less but I really wanted to give my opinion about this.

Assumptions are the mother of all major f*ck ups.

But I get your dissapointment, and of course you are free to share that with us.

benczi
09-15-2014, 07:30 AM
So, you never play a casual game with your friends for example?

Your loss I guess.

Maybe I'm the only collector who doesn't mind that THIS ONE CARD, isn't a tier one card.

Wait a second, in your sig it says Grand King.

Aradon
09-15-2014, 08:06 AM
Wait a second, in your sig it says Grand King.

Grand kings get the perks of all the 250 tiers, which means that he's a collector in addition to being a raid leader, pro player, guildmaster, and dungeon crawler.

Chiany
09-15-2014, 10:09 AM
Wait a second, in your sig it says Grand King.

What Aradon said, but I also have 2 Collector only tiers bought.

I did that because I love collecting cards, but also because I believe in the value of these cards, even when they aren't AA's from tier 1 cards.
Value to me is more than just the amount of $$ I can get for them.
I can use those 2 "leftovers" as prices for internal guild tournaments, to help out friends etc.

benczi
09-15-2014, 10:37 AM
Grand kings get the perks of all the 250 tiers, which means that he's a collector in addition to being a raid leader, pro player, guildmaster, and dungeon crawler.


No wonder he's satisfied and doesn't care about this card, having all the perks really does make a single card insignificant.

Khendral
09-15-2014, 11:27 AM
Edit: wrong thread, oops!

Chiany
09-15-2014, 11:44 AM
No wonder he's satisfied and doesn't care about this card, having all the perks really does make a single card insignificant.

Thank you for reading my mind. Obviously you're completely wrong, but that's okay.

Have a great day.

DocX
09-15-2014, 01:22 PM
Not interesting in AA cards or dropping another $200 into the game but I'll blindly buy the next AA card you guys get for 1667 plat ($200/12) to 'put my money where my mouth is'. Deal?

If this is for Master Theorycrafter, Deal! If it's for the second card, I'll still say Deal! Feel free to PM me your in-game name and when trading's implemented we'll go forward.


I think that is a fair response from Bootlace and calls your gamble/bluff. I'll pick up the AA card after that for 1667 plat if you are still game DocX.

Not a gamble or bluff. And, for him, I'll go with selling him the next card sight unseen. If you want to pick up the AAs after for 20k plat, we can do that, but I'm averse to onesie-twosies. You want to lock up a supply, act now! I don't want to deal with the AH every time a new AA comes out. Guarantee yourself a copy!

bootlace
09-15-2014, 04:14 PM
If this is for Master Theorycrafter, Deal! If it's for the second card, I'll still say Deal! Feel free to PM me your in-game name and when trading's implemented we'll go forward.

Cool of you to let me pick the mystery 2nd AA - sounds like a fun gamble even if I end up being wrong :) Problem is it might be months till trading is implemented :S. Would you be up for selling to me on the AH as soon as card comes out?

jonsnow2000
09-16-2014, 03:37 AM
Heya, since there are a few ppl in this thread willing to part with their AAs, I make the following offer: I will buy any Collector Tier AA that comes out this year for 1800 Plat (or 250K Gold) until I have a playset of each. If you are interested, PM me on this forum or send a friend request ingame (Kalassar).

DocX
09-16-2014, 06:28 AM
Cool of you to let me pick the mystery 2nd AA - sounds like a fun gamble even if I end up being wrong :) Problem is it might be months till trading is implemented :S. Would you be up for selling to me on the AH as soon as card comes out?

Fair enough. I figure it'd be reasonable to split the AH fees evenly. Feel free to check my math:
Price: 1667
AH fee: 83.3-ish
.5 AH fee: 41 (rounding down)
Price + .5 AH fee: 1708

If this seems good, we'll reconvene when AAs are released and execute the deal.

Bekkir
09-16-2014, 09:15 AM
Im really hoping that the AA Theorycrafter makes AA War Bots.

Who am I kidding? Im not 'hoping' Im 'BEGGING'.

Alchemy
09-16-2014, 10:02 AM
If only the set 1 AA were commissioned to those skilled in the art of vampires :p

bootlace
09-16-2014, 03:40 PM
Fair enough. I figure it'd be reasonable to split the AH fees evenly. Feel free to check my math:
Price: 1667
AH fee: 83.3-ish
.5 AH fee: 41 (rounding down)
Price + .5 AH fee: 1708

If this seems good, we'll reconvene when AAs are released and execute the deal.

Ok sounds fair - price locked at 1708 no matter what. My in-game name is same as here, will be in touch when they patch the card into the game.

nicosharp
09-16-2014, 04:31 PM
Im really hoping that the AA Theorycrafter makes AA War Bots.

Who am I kidding? Im not 'hoping' Im 'BEGGING'.
That would be great!
Also, I'm not sure if this was ever fixed, but AA Pack Raptors put normal Pack Raptors in the deck.

ossuary
09-16-2014, 07:47 PM
It was fixed at one point. I'm guessing it's one of the things that the last big patch re-broke. It's a big list. ;)

Stok3d
09-16-2014, 07:59 PM
I am likely one of the largest OCD collectors in this game. That being said, the choice of how an AA was selected is beautiful. Do realize that any card that is selected as an AA will have the non-AA drop in price. As a collector at heart, I would hate for my stack of say Angel of Dawns to drop a third in value as the supply spiked because of AA Influx in quantity/desire.

The economics are much more involved than what I've read people post in here. The platinum value of this AA will likely be the same regardless of the choice. The rarity is it's true value. If you're going to Choose a rare, deciding upon flooded card that will see playtime and making it valuable is a great choice in my book. Regardless, anyone with a Collector Tier should be singing their praises from the roof imo. Any AA in such low quantity will show tremendous future value and about that extra spectral garden that's incoming...

Well done on the choice.

My personal opinion if I were given the decision to choose a particular card, my vetting process would be as such: I would simply look for a card that would be a staple in decks for a particular color with a preference to Uncommons and Commons as to not effect one's collection values. The first card that comes to mind for me is Countermagic. I believe this would be absolutely ideal! AA is about beauty and bringing in some Swag to a deck. Again, if the card finds itself in many decks, the value will remain relatively steadfast for an AA regardless of the rarity and like others have pointed out--you want to use it and show it off!

To those who disagree with my economic analysis, I challenge you to analyze the card 'Pack Raptor'. I guarantee you that this card would be valued considerably higher if it didn't begin as an AA. Believe it or not, supply/demand values were effected as this is not a 200plat card imo.

Motjida
09-17-2014, 02:27 AM
To those who disagree with my economic analysis, I challenge you to analyze the card 'Pack Raptor'. I guarantee you that this card would be valued considerably higher if it didn't begin as an AA. Believe it or not, supply/demand values were effected as this is not a 200plat card imo.

Not disagreeing with your post, but the main reason Pack Raptor is so undervalued is because every KS backer (King and higher) has one or more of them. They're not as rare as they otherwise would be.

L1ght
09-17-2014, 03:03 AM
Stok3d you seem to be suggesting that Hex should, by design, make Collector Tier AAs based on free / trash / flooded / valueless cards so that the "spike in supply" and "AA influx" doesn't reduce the value of more desirable / chase cards.

I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous on so many levels.

Firstly, if your representing that Hex's philosophy is that they shouldn't ever make a decent chase rare/legendary for Collector Tier AA then I, and I'm assuming many people in this thread, will feel like we have been lied to when Cory said he would always take care of backers and put the players first. The poster who said "Cory gave me the feeling he would give all the kickstarter tiers the most value that they possibly can have." summed up exactly why I feel disappointed with the first card. No I don't need every card to be from the top 10 best cards in the set, but I expected that some of them would be, and the first big reveal seems like a good time to do it. Frankly I will be devastated if this first, underwhelming starter deck dregs AA card is a representation of Hex's philosophy on Collector Tier moving forward.

Secondly, you contradict yourself almost immediately by saying that "rarity is it's true value" and "in such low quantities". Which is it? Is it that Collector AA is so rare / low quantity that it therefore would have negligible effect on the value of the original card or is that Collector AA is a huge spike in supply and a massive influx of cards that breaks the economy?

Then you go again saying you would choose staple cards that see play (something I agree with) from each colour for the AA, like counter magic, so they are always useful and see play. I'm sorry but in what universe is Master Theorycrafter a staple card? It is at best a tier 2-3 situational card in constructed or a decent draft pick up.

If Collector is going to never see any playable Tier 1 rares/legendaries by design and that's the way you like it then feel free to swap me my Collector Tier for one your Pro Players.

Chiany
09-17-2014, 03:12 AM
I'm sorry but in what universe is Master Theorycrafter a staple card? It is at best a tier 2-3 situational card in constructed or a decent draft pick up.



Maybe you missed Colin's reply where he said to wait for set two.



Also, Master Theorycrafter is going to be THE BOMB with all of the artifact and charge love in Set 2. I can't wait to put together a Tier 1 Artifact/Dwarf deck with Theorycrafter front and center. :)

Glae
09-17-2014, 07:54 AM
I'd rather have a quality common than a starter set dreg. Alternate Art Countermagic, Burn, Sappers Charge, etc. Something that can actually go in a deck.

That's part of what initially entinced me into the Collector Tier over Pro Player. I like constructed, I don't like draft, I assumed Collecter Tier was supposed to be geared towards players, not just Mr Suitcases.

Xenavire
09-19-2014, 04:48 PM
I'd rather have a quality common than a starter set dreg. Alternate Art Countermagic, Burn, Sappers Charge, etc. Something that can actually go in a deck.

That's part of what initially entinced me into the Collector Tier over Pro Player. I like constructed, I don't like draft, I assumed Collecter Tier was supposed to be geared towards players, not just Mr Suitcases.

That was a daft assumption, really. 'Collector tier' - its in the name. It doesn't matter at all what the card is, as long as it is collectible. Hell, they could print a card that 'eats' commons, and you have to feed it (destroy) a common card per week - and it does absolutely nothing else, and people would still want 4.

they never promised playable cards, in a tier sense. I always thought the people asking for Angel of Dawn just wanted more cool art - not to be able to play it. Seems I have been proven wrong, but I am glad we are getting some awesome art out of the deal - but really, if anyone wants to let go a playset of each collector card go cheaply, keep me in mind. :)

Glae
09-19-2014, 09:49 PM
Well its a fair assumption to think that because the Collector tier and Pro player tier were the same price, they'd have the same value. Getting 6 garbage AAs per year that are only sellable to people with OCD because they gotta catch em all, is not the same value as opening 156 packs and just rare drafting, or even just regular drafting. Now, luckily, people are for some reason which I do not understand offering to buy AAs for $18. Which means I'm no longer a Collector Tier, I'm a Reseller Tier.

I think it's daft to assume that $250 is a fair price for unusable garbage that you can keep in your Card Manager and can literally do nothing with. What is your expectation of what "Collectors" are supposed to do with their "collections?" Just look at it? Look at their F Tier AAs whose normal versions are being *literally* given away for free and try to feel good about themselves?

I never asked for Angels. But I did expect something usable. I've said it once and I'll say it again, I'd rather have commons than trash.

ossuary
09-20-2014, 06:05 AM
But it's right in the name. "Collect"or. Not "Tier 1 Card"er. If you bought Collector tier expecting to get the rarest, chasiest, most powerful cards in the set, you deluded yourself. You will be COLLECTing special cards that nobody else has access to, unique to your tier. They will be highly sought after by COLLECTors for years to come, and you will have the only source of them. In 2 years, someone new to the game will have no choice but to pay the going rate for your incredibly skimpy supply of unique cards. It really, truly doesn't matter what cards they choose for this tier.

Try to look at the big picture, and not just get yourself worked up because the non-unique version of your card doesn't currently cost enough in the AH or doesn't instantly win you games in any deck you play, neither of those details are in any way relevant to the point of this tier. If you're so angry about it, I'll gladly take it off your hands. :p

DocX
09-20-2014, 07:15 AM
I am likely one of the largest OCD collectors in this game. That being said, the choice of how an AA was selected is beautiful. Do realize that any card that is selected as an AA will have the non-AA drop in price.

<sarcasm>Then it's awesome they chose Master Theorycrafter since it can't drop in price as it's already at the 30 plat floor</sarcasm>


As a collector at heart, I would hate for my stack of say Angel of Dawns to drop a third in value as the supply spiked because of AA Influx in quantity/desire.

The only reason Angel of Dawn's value might go down is Collectors (and levels above) liquidating their normal versions if they're satisfied with a mixed playset, and even then I doubt the value will dip more than a few dozen plat given the card's high value already.


The economics are much more involved than what I've read people post in here. The platinum value of this AA will likely be the same regardless of the choice. The rarity is it's true value.

No, its true value is determined by comparing it's Demand to its Supply. Rarity only addresses one half of that equation. I've got lots of Promo Rifts CCG cards in my basement. Supply of those is lower than the AA Theorycrafters, but I guarantee value will be less as well because of there's no demand.


To those who disagree with my economic analysis, I challenge you to analyze the card 'Pack Raptor'. I guarantee you that this card would be valued considerably higher if it didn't begin as an AA. Believe it or not, supply/demand values were effected as this is not a 200plat card imo.

*affected


Not disagreeing with your post, but the main reason Pack Raptor is so undervalued is because every KS backer (King and higher) has one or more of them. They're not as rare as they otherwise would be.

This. The reason for normal Raptor's low price is a) the incredible supply of them and b) there's not a solid deck with it as a lynchpin card. More Supply, Less Demand = Lower Price.


That was a daft assumption, really. 'Collector tier' - its in the name. It doesn't matter at all what the card is, as long as it is collectible. Hell, they could print a card that 'eats' commons, and you have to feed it (destroy) a common card per week - and it does absolutely nothing else, and people would still want 4.

I don't doubt there would be some folks who might want that, but I would also wager quite a bit of money the percentage compared to the overall player base would be below 1% (presuming there is zero benefit to "eating" common cards). But this is the internet and you can find someone who's into pretty much anything (hence the reason Rule 34 is a thing).


they never promised playable cards, in a tier sense. I always thought the people asking for Angel of Dawn just wanted more cool art - not to be able to play it. Seems I have been proven wrong, but I am glad we are getting some awesome art out of the deal - but really, if anyone wants to let go a playset of each collector card go cheaply, keep me in mind. :)

No, but the implicit promise was it would be of roughly equal value to the Pro Player Tier (same with Raid Leader, Guild Master, etc). When you price things equally, the implicit promise is they're of roughly equal value to the customers . It may have been a mistake (and mostly acknowledged as one) to set the expectation of equality at those tiers, but it's been done.

Caveats apply... if you don't have a playset of Angels, it's reasonable you'd value a single copy more than someone who has multiple playsets and vice versa.


Well its a fair assumption to think that because the Collector tier and Pro player tier were the same price, they'd have the same value. Getting 6 garbage AAs per year that are only sellable to people with OCD because they gotta catch em all, is not the same value as opening 156 packs and just rare drafting, or even just regular drafting. Now, luckily, people are for some reason which I do not understand offering to buy AAs for $18. Which means I'm no longer a Collector Tier, I'm a Reseller Tier.

I think it's daft to assume that $250 is a fair price for unusable garbage that you can keep in your Card Manager and can literally do nothing with. What is your expectation of what "Collectors" are supposed to do with their "collections?" Just look at it? Look at their F Tier AAs whose normal versions are being *literally* given away for free and try to feel good about themselves?

I never asked for Angels. But I did expect something usable. I've said it once and I'll say it again, I'd rather have commons than trash.

Emphasis added to the parts I wholeheartedly agree with.


But it's right in the name. "Collect"or. Not "Tier 1 Card"er. If you bought Collector tier expecting to get the rarest, chasiest, most powerful cards in the set, you deluded yourself. You will be COLLECTing special cards that nobody else has access to, unique to your tier. They will be highly sought after by COLLECTors for years to come, and you will have the only source of them. In 2 years, someone new to the game will have no choice but to pay the going rate for your incredibly skimpy supply of unique cards. It really, truly doesn't matter what cards they choose for this tier.

Price is set by Supply AND Demand. It's not the Supply part I see as the issue here, it's the Demand part. I want cards I can actually play in a deck that's reasonably effective.


Try to look at the big picture, and not just get yourself worked up because the non-unique version of your card doesn't currently cost enough in the AH or doesn't instantly win you games in any deck you play, neither of those details are in any way relevant to the point of this tier. If you're so angry about it, I'll gladly take it off your hands. :p

You want to go with the same price I negotiated with bootlace for my Theorycrafters? If so, they're all yours.

I'll gladly take any extra rares off anyone's hands. That doesn't mean I'll pay for them. I'll also take extra Commons and Uncommons if they're free! It's when a price is assigned to those bits and value is exchanged that things get complicated. I'm a Grand King. I get Pro Player, Raid Leader, Collector and more so, while I'm irritated at things, I've got my one free draft a week for the life of hex (aka ~$5 a week in value) to comfort myself with. If I was simply in for the Collector Tier, I'd be righteously pissed off at the first card released and the (apparent) lack of thought at how this choice would be perceived.

No, I don't want "the rarest, chasiest, most powerful cards in the set" as AAs. I also don't want cards that are exclusively desired by COLLECTors. I want AAs that appeal to people for more than just their art. I want AAs that are playable. I'm happy for AAs of Common and Uncommon cards as long as those cards will see play[b]. Hell, I'd even be happy with AAs of Shards (and everyone has effectively unlimited copies of those) because [b]those are cards that are played.

AAs that sit in collections aren't valuable.

ossuary
09-20-2014, 07:37 AM
This has been said many times before, but I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that Pro Player was stupidly good value for the money. Like, 100x more value than was warranted. A free draft a week, FOREVER. There's a reason it sold out in less than 2 days - because everyone realized what a ridiculously amazing deal it was. Frankly, CZE was stupid to do it, and I think they probably regret it. It's too good of a deal, and it's giving away too much free product, in perpetuity. There is no question in my mind that they were trying to give people something cool to scratch that particular type of player's itch, but with Pro Player, they went too far. It's WAY better than all of the other $250 tiers. The tiers are NOT equal. You may think they SHOULD be, but that's a different conversation.

The other tiers are going to give added value over time as well, but not in such a clean, clear, and easy way as Pro. Collector is probably the closest, because of the likely value of these AA cards over time (especially 3 or 4 years from now, where the number of people producing those cards every year is miniscule compared to the total population). Dungeon Crawler is probably next, but I would expect not nearly as high as Collector, but it REALLY depends on how valuable those rare PVE drops turn out to be, and how hard they are to get. DC will have a distinct farming advantage over any other player, but if you only have a .1% chance to get a loot item worth $20 to drop, DC only has an extra chance per dungeon run to get that item than you do. Raid Leader is an even more ethereal bonus... it offers a gameplay advantage rather than something of financial worth (unless you charge people to group with them, of course :D). Guild Master offers a similar ethereal bonus (faster leveling for guild members), but also came with a one-time bonus of 90 extra booster packs (assuming you kept them for yourself).

But none of those really compares to the Pro tier, and again, whether or not you think they SHOULD compare is not the issue. They simply don't, and you can't expect CZE to make AA of $20 cards or guarantee to always give you bomb cards just to try to boost the worth of your tier. Your promise was exclusives that nobody else will have access to, and that's what you're getting. If that's not what you WANTED, you should have bought something else. If straight value was your goal, you should have bought pro player. The fact that you didn't was your own decision, and nobody else's fault.

I will happily take any cards (or the whole tier) off your hands if you're not happy with them, no questions asked. :)

Glae
09-20-2014, 10:09 AM
Can we stop with the straw man argument of "We demand AA Angels" and "I need free $20 bombs."

That isn't what the pissed off collector tiers are saying and you KNOW IT.

Xenavire
09-20-2014, 10:12 AM
Can we stop with the straw man argument of "We demand AA Angels" and "I need free $20 bombs."

That isn't what the pissed off collector tiers are saying and you KNOW IT.

It is exactly what they are saying - they want more value than just an exclusive art. They were only promised exclusive art. They are complaining about something they weren't promised.

And most of the people saying it are asking for tier cards or cards that are likely to be tier cards.

So what if this is a starter deck rare? Don't like it? Sell it. Then you can regret it when it triples in price a year later.

Glae
09-20-2014, 12:12 PM
Name a SINGLE PERSON who has said that.

I can't tell if you're intentional trolling, or just not reading what anyone else says. Maybe you just look at join dates or posts counts and ignore based on that. I don't know. And I don't care. But clearly it isn't sinking through your skull.

People want AAs they can use. This is the third time I've said this so this time its all caps:
I WOULD TAKE USABLE COMMONS OVER TRASH RARES.

Xenavire
09-20-2014, 12:23 PM
Name a SINGLE PERSON who has said that.

I can't tell if you're intentional trolling, or just not reading what anyone else says. Maybe you just look at join dates or posts counts and ignore based on that. I don't know. And I don't care. But clearly it isn't sinking through your skull.

People want AAs they can use. This is the third time I've said this so this time its all caps:
I WOULD TAKE USABLE COMMONS OVER TRASH RARES.

Did I ever say tier cards had to be legendary or rare? No, thats an assumption that you are making.


And most of the people saying it are asking for tier cards or cards that are likely to be tier cards.


90% of the games legendaries are not even tier cards. Even a common that is 'useful' is obviously going to be worth more than a bad rare, when they have AA. You are describing exactly the same thing I am, but trying to say I am wrong.

Funny that. :p

Glae
09-20-2014, 12:40 PM
Oh, so you've literally done a 180 between "you are all saying that we demand AA Angels" and "of course good commons are better than trash rares."

Inb4: Not mutually exclusive statements

Chiany
09-20-2014, 01:01 PM
Name a SINGLE PERSON who has said that.

I can't tell if you're intentional trolling, or just not reading what anyone else says. Maybe you just look at join dates or posts counts and ignore based on that. I don't know. And I don't care. But clearly it isn't sinking through your skull.

People want AAs they can use. This is the third time I've said this so this time its all caps:
I WOULD TAKE USABLE COMMONS OVER TRASH RARES.

maybe I need to use caps to make you understand.

THIS IS A PLAYABLE RARE, IT HAS BEEN USED IN WINNING CONSTRUCTED DECKS.

so tell me, did that help?

Xenavire
09-20-2014, 01:02 PM
Oh, so you've literally done a 180 between "you are all saying that we demand AA Angels" and "of course good commons are better than trash rares."

By "tier cards" are you referring to cards that are usable? I'm unfamiliar with this definition. So cards that are not tier are like Baby Yeti, Minotaur Mercenary and like... that's it?

Uh, no - I said that there are people asking for AA angels - there have been people asking for months. My position though, has been that you got something you didn't like and want something with more value - and yes, a tier common is going to be worth more than a non-tier crappy rare or legendary, if both have AA. That doesn't mean you were promised anything better than what you got though, and the whole complaint is just based on a misunderstanding or wishful thinking.

You are either working very hard to misunderstand me, or you are arguing against absolutely nothing.

Glae
09-20-2014, 02:04 PM
No one is this thread has. Everyone has been saying "I didn't expect angels but I wanted something usable." When I asked to knock of the straw man you doubled down and said that's exactly what's been said. DocX is asking for AA *shards* for BLANK's sake. When I asked you to name a single person you deflected and are now saying "people." I call BS.

So your position, if I understand what it currently is at this moment, is that collectors are mad we wanted a cool AA we could use and show off, and instead we got trash... Well then I agree. I didn't buy in to get cards and resell them, I got them so I could show them off. Collector Tier has become Resale Tier, since if I keep getting trash I'm just going to sell it to people who only want to buy it to prove we're wrong. I just wish it was advertised as the tier that will get unusable garbage that's given away for free and you can maybe sell it.

Or maybe you're position is that AA quality commons would have more *monetary* value than AA garbage rares... that's probably true, but I don't even care. I wanted AAs to use, not to sell. Menacing Gralk and Xentoth Inquisitor may have more monetary value than a lot of other rares, but if I had exactly one play set, I wouldn't sell them. I'd put them in my decks. Because they're cool.

@Chiany: two copies were used in *a* deck, which came in 4th place. Nice try though.

Xenavire
09-20-2014, 02:24 PM
No one is this thread has. Everyone has been saying "I didn't expect angels but I wanted something usable." When I asked to knock of the straw man you doubled down and said that's exactly what's been said. DocX is asking for AA *shards* for BLANK's sake. When I asked you to name a single person you deflected and are now saying "people." I call BS.

So your position, if I understand what it currently is at this moment, is that collectors are mad we wanted a cool AA we could use and show off, and instead we got trash... Well then I agree. I didn't buy in to get cards and resell them, I got them so I could show them off. Collector Tier has become Resale Tier, since if I keep getting trash I'm just going to sell it to people who only want to buy it to prove we're wrong. I just wish it was advertised as the tier that will get unusable garbage that's given away for free and you can maybe sell it.

Or maybe you're position is that AA quality commons would have more *monetary* value than AA garbage rares... that's probably true, but I don't even care. I wanted AAs to use, not to sell. Menacing Gralk and Xentoth Inquisitor may have more monetary value than a lot of other rares, but if I had exactly one play set, I wouldn't sell them. I'd put them in my decks. Because they're cool.

@Chiany: two copies were used in *a* deck, which came in 4th place. Nice try though.

For crying out... Do you know how hard it is to look for posts with alternate art angel? The search system doesn't take anything with 3 or less letters, so 'AA' and 'Art' cannot be used. Despite that, I have found at least one post (one of the first to say that AA would be cool fo Collector, and potentially where the idea came from that got repeated so many times):


Hi!

With a lot of features being in the game already (and a lot missing, let's not get into that here), one I haven't seen any threads about are the Collector's AA cards.

When are we going to see those? Which ones are they going to be (rares, even legendaries?)?

I am asking because my past experience with AA cards is a very mixed bag: The WoW TCG had "alternate art" card promos for tournaments like, but frequently they just had the same artwork in "full-bleed" and were C/UC. And seriously - for a common and uncommon I really don't care what art the card has that I play.

If those AA cards actually were "playable" (AA Angel of Dawn anybody?), that of course would be a huge boon.

Is there any specific information about it yet, that I may have missed?

Heres another that I found using 'Collector' and 'Angel' as search words:


Why?

For me, I've got Collector tier through Grand King, and I I pretty much expect that Kickstarter backing to be the "peak" of my investment in Hex - I'll buy a little plat here and there but at this point I'm mostly using my free weekly draft and money from selling extras on the AH to fund further play on a rolling basis. Extra AA copies of a card I already have means three normal variants I can resell for more drafting fees. Extra AA copies of a card I still need 4 of mean (for example) Vampire Kings I don't have to buy -- and if it is a high value card like Vampire King or Angel of Dawn, that could be a nontrivial savings.

I can worry about stuff like getting a formal pure playset down the line, especially since it would be a lot more cumbersome to sell such a thing in Hex.


This one is another mention, but not specifically a request - as evidence that the idea has been popular enough to be noticed:


Depends. I'd anticipate a sizable portion of those copies not entering the market (anyone who pledge collector + in part or in whole to get those cards will likely hold their copies).

It will also depend on what card it is. If it's Vampire King or Angel of Dawn (pretty much everyone want 4 of them), the demand is likely to exceed supply enough not to matter, similarly if it's Comet Strike (can you give away comet strikes?) I don't think the price for any legendary can go much lower than where comet strike will trade. If it's something like Time Bug (people use it but it's a bit niche), than yeah, the added supply will probably have a noticeable impact on trading price for the normal art version.

Another half request:


I like to collect, and it makes me a little sad that the starter decks auto-open into the card manager.
I would like a little icon in my stash and I want the decision when I open it. I want to be able to collect these sealed decks. I am hoping that we get the Dragon Blood Starter Deck soon and I really hope this is sealed.

Finally - I really do hope we see the decklist for the Dragon Blood Starter deck and the Collector AA card BEFORE trading and the Auction House. It would be un-fun to pay $$ dollars for a card, only to find thousands of extra copies flooding the marketplace once these Kickstarter rewards are revealed/distributed.

I will love CZE forever if the AA Collector Card is Angel of Dawn but this seems highly unlikely, a man can dream right.


...Now, if I can find this many references to AA Angels with the horrible search system, I think we can conclude that it has been a popular idea that has been mentioned and requested often enough to qualify.

Sorry if me hating the search system and being a little lazy came off as 'deflecting'.


As it is... Yes, I do think that AA commons would have more monetary worth than AA rares that aren't worth a whole lot normally. That is because of the amount of people that will want to run playsets in decks to show off - as it is, the AA card you get is still wanted by collectors and will have inherent value far beyond any normal art card.

The big thing here though is that you bought something, expecting one thing, and got another. What you were promised was 'unique cards' and thats what you got. What you wanted was 'shiny stuff you could show off', or for some people 'stuff I can resell for lots'. Just because you don't want to use them doesn't make them less shiny, and they will be worth a lot, so really, every complaint is covered - you just want more, right?

Yoss
09-20-2014, 02:29 PM
There's a reason Collector didn't sell out during KS. Obviously, not all the $250 were equal. This was well known during the campaign and should still be well known now. IIRC, Collector fell at 3rd place for popularity out of the 5 choices. As long as you come out with more value than 90 booster packs (Guild Leader), you're in good shape. And guess what, you're already mostly there with the extra copies of the KS stuff, and you get these nifty AA cards FOR LIFE. And honestly, Collector will probably end up worth more than DC for many people, despite DC clearly being more popular. Collector is the first tier to start... collecting... on its benefits. Pro Player gets no benefit until Year 2 (since everyone else got the 1 year bonus). Dungeon Crawler and Raid Leader mean nothing until we have PvE. Guild Leader means nothing until we have both PvE and guilds.

There is no conspiracy. Hex is not out to screw you. If you are a KS Collector, you are among a favored and fortunate group. Be happy with your blessings.

Glae
09-20-2014, 04:02 PM
Can we stop with the straw man argument of "We demand AA Angels" and "I need free $20 bombs." That isn't what the pissed off collector tiers are saying and you KNOW IT.

It is exactly what they are saying

Name a SINGLE PERSON who has said that.
Followed by posts from long ago being like "hey, these cards will have a good value if its AA Angel." Well, no shit. Of course it would be a good value. There's a few people in the beginning of the thread that are a bit mweh that it could've been an Angel or chase legendary... and a lot of people for like 10 pages that are upset they can't do shit with this card except use it to collect virtual dust or sell it to other people in this thread that want to prove them wrong.

I'm happy to sell off this shit tier card, and it isn't going to triple in value ever. If there's no demand, the limited supply doesn't matter.

Xenavire
09-20-2014, 04:18 PM
Followed by posts from long ago being like "hey, these cards will have a good value if its AA Angel." Well, no shit. Of course it would be a good value. There's a few people in the beginning of the thread that are a bit mweh that it could've been an Angel or chase legendary... and a lot of people for like 10 pages that are upset they can't do shit with this card except use it to collect virtual dust or sell it to other people in this thread that want to prove them wrong.

I'm happy to sell off this shit tier card, and it isn't going to triple in value ever. If there's no demand, the limited supply doesn't matter.

Christ, are you blind? I explained that it is very hard to find those posts because of how bad the search system is. Go try it for yourself. I mean it, go try, then come back and try to criticise me.

Pretty much all the major discussions of Collector AA have included mentions of Vampire king, Angel, Mastery of time... Cards that are already powerful and worth a lot. I have seen very few suggestions that were not one of those three cards, and usually those times are just blanket statements like 'a good card'.

And sure, trade or sell those AA's to me - I won't even rub your face in it when they are worth so much more in a few years. And I will actually use them too. because I simply don't care that Master Theorycrafter is 'bad'.

ossuary
09-20-2014, 04:21 PM
I was going to go to the trouble of quoting the several people who specifically said they wanted/expected angels, chase legendaries, or tier 1 cards as their Collector rewards, but I decided it would be far more satisfying and healthy to just continue my policy of ignoring annoying idiots and letting them have their cute little tantrums instead.

Here's a hint: a card can be PLAYABLE without being Tier 1. It doesn't have to be an auto-include in every deck of that color to make it worth having an AA version of. Any good card will be insanely valuable as an AA, because of the scarcity. The demand will mostly take care of itself, as long as CZE isn't trying to pass off something like an AA Wild Child on the Collectors. If they do that, THEN I would actually agree that you have a case. Sorry if your exclusives shinies aren't quite shiny enough for you... maybe you were misleading yourself what you were supposed to be getting? CZE already came into this thread and explained their exact reasoning and thought processes going into the decisions for AA cards. Now you know exactly what to expect going forward.

Glae
09-20-2014, 04:28 PM
No I'm not, are you? I explained that I'm looking for people who are mad now that the first AA has been revealed, and they demand Angel. Not posts from X months ago being like "hey this would be neat." "what if it was AAAngel?" "Collector Tier will be the most value if the card is Angel." Those are useless, irrelevant to the conversation and a waste of time for you to find and me to read.

This thread is chock full of people asking for AA Commons instead of this trash. Which you derided basically for being greedy and entitled. We should be happy with cards to sit in our collection, because we bought the "Crap to sit in our collection" Tier.

Those cards aren't going to be worth the server space they're stored on in "a few years." You need high Demand for a limited Supply to mean anything.

Glae
09-20-2014, 04:31 PM
CZE already came into this thread and explained their exact reasoning and thought processes going into the decisions for AA cards. Now you know exactly what to expect going forward.

Their reasoning was basically "uh, yeah we paid this guy who likes to draw dwarves to draw a dwarf we already paid another guy to draw." Not exactly a satisfying response.



but I decided it would be far more satisfying and healthy to just continue my policy of ignoring annoying idiots and letting them have their cute little tantrums instead.


Also, calling people idiots isn't a great way to have an argument, or hold a conversation. Maybe I should start ignoring the annoying idiots who spew content onto the board and crap all over people with a lower post count than them. It's more satisfying and healthy to ignore the 5k club circlejerk over how how anyone who has any complaints is an idiot.

Xenavire
09-20-2014, 04:49 PM
Ugh, this is pointless - you keep changing your argument. And completely ignoring mine, which is that you got exactly what you paid for.

Offer is still open though - I have no problem paying for up to 4 copies of each AA, or alternatively trading for them if needed, whenever possible.

Glae
09-21-2014, 08:03 AM
That's funny, I feel the same thing about your posts. Changing the goalposts while ignoring my point- that I backed as a Collector to show off AAs, not to sell them. Clearly we are at an impass and I don't feel like arguing with two people with infinite free time.

Also, you're like a day too late. I found someone interested in buying like an hour after the card was revealed. I was highly motivated to dump the trash. Am I happy that I'm getting something for being a Collector tier? Yes. Am I satisfied that Collector Tier is actually Resale Tier? No.

Xenavire
09-21-2014, 08:36 AM
That's funny, I feel the same thing about your posts. Changing the goalposts while ignoring my point- that I backed as a Collector to show off AAs, not to sell them. Clearly we are at an impass and I don't feel like arguing with two people with infinite free time.

Also, you're like a day too late. I found someone interested in buying like an hour after the card was revealed. I was highly motivated to dump the trash. Am I happy that I'm getting something for being a Collector tier? Yes. Am I satisfied that Collector Tier is actually Resale Tier? No.

Bolded just shows that you are ungrateful - nothing stops you from using the card. It isn't invalid for deckbuilding. If you wanted shiny things to play with - well, if you aren't willing to play any given card in the whole game, you chose the wrong tier. That should have factored into your choice to purchase collector, and if you still bought it - too bad. You are getting everything you paid for. If I had the money at the time, I would of happily bought the tier and been very happy with any AA.

And I am happy you found someone to buy the cards - but the fact that you sold it just proves there is demand (and you know there was demand when you said that prices wouldn't rise) which makes you seem like you are just here to complain that it isn't everything you dreamed of - and again, you obviously bought the wrong tier. I haven't seen any reason to believe that you are anything other than ungrateful.

benczi
09-22-2014, 12:59 AM
It's seems to me, that many of you that are defending the Master Theorycrafter AA choice are assuming that Hex will still be played 3-4 years from now, and that the player base will grow exponentially. So in other words you also have some basic assumptions and expectations from this game.

15 pages of useless fighting. I really wonder what CZE thinks of how the first promo card is being received by the collectors. I guess it's good that at least some collectors* (*re-sellers) got some good deals of of it.

Jeevus
09-22-2014, 08:47 AM
I see alot of discussion going around with the Theorycrafter AA for Collectors. I think CZE limited themselves by saying "only rares and legendaries" as Collector AA's. I do can understand why people don't like to see that Theorycrafter is the first Collector's AA. It's not the fact that he isn't worth anything, since AA's aim at a completely different player-base, it's the fact he is just not playable in competitve level. That's where you want to show off your cards normally. Iwould, for example, highly prefer AA Buccaners or Corpse Flies, Chlorophyllia etc. Those might not be rare/legendary, but the fact those are played in tournaments defines their AA value.

AA's shouldn't be cards that have a high value already, rather cards that see comp. play. The VIP AA cards for example are a very good example. I feel those are the cards they should aim for the Collector Tier AA's. And put the Theorycrafter (if at all) into the VIP slot. Makes alot more sense imho.

Yoss
09-22-2014, 09:04 AM
Theorycrafter is playable and has made at least one top 16 showing. There have also been hints that he might get better in Set 2

Xenavire
09-22-2014, 09:35 AM
AA's shouldn't be cards that have a high value already, rather cards that see comp. play. The VIP AA cards for example are a very good example. I feel those are the cards they should aim for the Collector Tier AA's. And put the Theorycrafter (if at all) into the VIP slot. Makes alot more sense imho.

So, Ozawa, Wrathwood colossus, Princess Victoria, and Pack Raptor AA's simply shouldn't exist?

It has never been true that AA cards were aimed at competitive players. A few will be good enough to make it into tier decks, and Theorycrafter has that potential. More potential than Ozawa or Wrathwood Colossus at any rate - yet no-one complained about them.

Next someone will complain about Jovial Pippet not being top tier in set 2's meta. :p

If you mean just for collectors... VIP actually makes you play competitively to earn the cards, hence competitive rewards. The collector tier is meant for rare, hard to get things - Master Theorycrafter will fit that niche perfectly.

DocX
09-23-2014, 07:07 AM
AA's shouldn't be cards that have a high value already, rather cards that see comp. play. The VIP AA cards for example are a very good example. I feel those are the cards they should aim for the Collector Tier AA's. And put the Theorycrafter (if at all) into the VIP slot. Makes alot more sense imho.So, Ozawa, Wrathwood colossus, Princess Victoria, and Pack Raptor AA's simply shouldn't exist?

I've got two decks with Victoria and Raptors in them (and I'm splitting between normal and AAs). They're not Tier 1, but they win reasonably well in Random games and I'm able to actually see the AAs in play. Also, if/when crafting comes out, I'll be able to break down my Legendaries and still maintain a play set of the cards (or break down my AAs if they give more crafting mats).

But Ozawa, Colossus, Victoria and the Raptors were given to many, many folks as a bonus. Master Theorycrafter was specifically paid for by folks at the Collector Tier.


It has never been true that AA cards were aimed at competitive players. A few will be good enough to make it into tier decks, and Theorycrafter has that potential. More potential than Ozawa or Wrathwood Colossus at any rate - yet no-one complained about them.

No one complained because they weren't the differentiating attribute of the tier, they were extras granted due to stretch goals/specific event giveaways. Nobody can say "I spent $250 to back the Kickstarter at this level specifically for what I would get at this level and all I got was a stupid AA Ozawa/Wrathwood/Raptor/etc." They were the lagniappe, not the meal.


Next someone will complain about Jovial Pippet not being top tier in set 2's meta. :p

Again, that's an extra, not the differentiating attribute of the tier.


If you mean just for collectors... VIP actually makes you play competitively to earn the cards, hence competitive rewards. The collector tier is meant for rare, hard to get things - Master Theorycrafter will fit that niche perfectly.

Again, I've got some rare, hard to get Rifts CCG cards.... by your thinking, they should be worth loads of money... can you point me to where I can exchange those cards for the purported loads of money? Or are you conveniently side stepping the role of Demand in the whole "Value = Demand / Supply" equation?


This has been said many times before, but I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that Pro Player was stupidly good value for the money. [...] The tiers are NOT equal. You may think they SHOULD be, but that's a different conversation.

Fair enough.


But none of those really compares to the Pro tier, and again, whether or not you think they SHOULD compare is not the issue.

I am inclined to disagree again, but this is a discussion best had in person over food, drink or both.


They simply don't, and you can't expect CZE to make AA of $20 cards or guarantee to always give you bomb cards just to try to boost the worth of your tier. Your promise was exclusives that nobody else will have access to, and that's what you're getting. If that's not what you WANTED, you should have bought something else. If straight value was your goal, you should have bought pro player. The fact that you didn't was your own decision, and nobody else's fault.

Actually, for many Pro Player was gone (as you stated previously, it was a stupid good value and was snapped up within two days), so many players weren't able to bump up to Grand King and had to pick from what was left.

And, again, I won't turn down AA Angels, but that's not what I want (nor what the majority of detractors of Theorycrafter say they want either). . . I want playable cards. I'll say it again, give me AA Shards! AA Dual Shards after Set 2 releases would be AWESOME and I'd be completely happy with those for my Collector Tier AA.


I will happily take any cards (or the whole tier) off your hands if you're not happy with them, no questions asked. :)

And I'll take any cards from anyone they want to send. In fact, if you want to spend $250 on boosters, or commons on the AH and then send them to me, I'll happily take them! You want to take your money and turn it into something that is now mine? ABSOLUTELY! SEND ME ALL THE THINGS!

Oss, you seem a reasonable guy, but the whole "Well, you don't like what you spent money on? Send it to me!" isn't funny. It downplays a very real frustration and rubs salt in the wounds.

"Oh, you're vegetarian and they made that cornbread lard? Well, just so you know I'll happily take all the food you can't eat."


Here's a hint: a card can be PLAYABLE without being Tier 1.

Uh... by that definition, any card you can include in a deck is technically playable. It's not good, or even desirable, but it's technically playable. Eldon's Distress Signal is, by your definition, playable. Is it good? Nope. Would I rank that at the same level of desirability as an AA Wild Child? It's close, but Distress Signal inches the Child out by a hair because when crafting (eventually) comes out, I theoretically will get more crafting mats from blowing up the Signal... unless you get the same mats from every AA, in which case they're equal.

There's a difference between technically playable and "worth including in a deck you want to actually win games with". Eldon is a janky card that may actually have some value in some narrow and specific cases. Same goes for Sliver of the Immortal Spear, Time Bug, Ascetic Aspirant, Trial of Faith, Gigantify and Tectonic Break. Just because I can put them into a deck doesn't mean there aren't a dozen other cards that'd be a better use of that deck space.


Sorry if your exclusives shinies aren't quite shiny enough for you... maybe you were misleading yourself what you were supposed to be getting? CZE already came into this thread and explained their exact reasoning and thought processes going into the decisions for AA cards. Now you know exactly what to expect going forward.

Yep. Expectations have definitely been lowered. I'd suggest Dungeon Crawlers, Raid Leaders and Guild Masters take note and lower their expectations appropriately as well.


[...] nothing stops you from using the card. It isn't invalid for deckbuilding.

Again, there's a difference between technically playable and worth including in a non-jank deck. Nothing prevents me from running 40 shards in a 60 card deck, but it's not something I'd want to do if I were actually wanting to, y'know, win the game/match I'm playing.


If you wanted shiny things to play with - well, if you aren't willing to play any given card in the whole game, you chose the wrong tier. That should have factored into your choice to purchase collector, and if you still bought it - too bad. You are getting everything you paid for. If I had the money at the time, I would of happily bought the tier and been very happy with any AA.

I'm glad your expectations are appropriately lowered that, in the hypothetical situation you've constructed, you'd be happy. There are those in the real situation now that are not happy with the results of HexEnt's decision, the faith they'd originally put in HexEnt/CZE or the real money they spent on that faith. Just because they're unhappy does not mean they're ungrateful. The value of their donation/investment/purchase is not currently up to the expectations they previously had. Whether that changes over the long-term is yet to be seen. I'm hopeful HexEnt in general takes the feedback on this thread into consideration when choosing future AAs for the Collector Tier.

Jeevus
09-23-2014, 09:59 AM
So, Ozawa, Wrathwood colossus, Princess Victoria, and Pack Raptor AA's simply shouldn't exist?

It has never been true that AA cards were aimed at competitive players. A few will be good enough to make it into tier decks, and Theorycrafter has that potential. More potential than Ozawa or Wrathwood Colossus at any rate - yet no-one complained about them.

Next someone will complain about Jovial Pippet not being top tier in set 2's meta. :p

If you mean just for collectors... VIP actually makes you play competitively to earn the cards, hence competitive rewards. The collector tier is meant for rare, hard to get things - Master Theorycrafter will fit that niche perfectly.


Don't disregard the little point i made when i said "for collector's AA". I just can't find a reason why they offer gralk and Inquisitor as VIP rewards, whereas collectors get a mighty Theorycrafter. (And yes i know Collector tier Backer can enter the next (few) vip tourneys, thats just not the point.)

Maybe i'll make my point abit clearer: I wouldve gladly taken AA Time Ripple or Buccaneer or Chlorophyllia over an AA Theorycrafter.

Xenavire
09-23-2014, 10:23 AM
Don't disregard the little point i made when i said "for collector's AA". I just can't find a reason why they offer gralk and Inquisitor as VIP rewards, whereas collectors get a mighty Theorycrafter. (And yes i know Collector tier Backer can enter the next (few) vip tourneys, thats just not the point.)

Maybe i'll make my point abit clearer: I wouldve gladly taken AA Time Ripple or Buccaneer or Chlorophyllia over an AA Theorycrafter.

VIP AA - earned by playing. EARNED.

Collector AA - bought, intended to be unique. BOUGHT UNIQUES.

Nothing about the two are comparable. You don't deserve top tier cards for paying, nor were you ever promised them. I don't know how this is still a discussion, at all - you are being given precisely what you paid for, no more, no less.

And the final note - there is demand. I would love a playset, as would several others. I am sure there are even other collectors who want some more copies. If you really hate it (and you shouldn't, if you like collecting things) then you can sell it.

JakeFreedom
09-23-2014, 01:24 PM
If someone doesn't want their AA Master Theorycrafter I would be more than happy to trade any card for it. Once p2p trading is implemented if you have one and want to get rid of it hit me up and we can work something out.

Glae
09-24-2014, 12:14 PM
@Xen. We already are selling it. We're frustrated that it feels like CZE has taken our money and given us crap. Its frustrating because CZE Ty's explanation seems to be that these cards are basically being chosen at random, while VIP AAs are clearly power cards. The Collector AA is a garbage card that has the normal version being literally given away for free. Just because there are people like you that are willing to pay *way* more than this card is worth because of some absurd completionist compulsion or perverse desire to prove anyone who complains wrong doesn't give you the right to call anyone who disagrees with you an entitled ungrateful idiot. The toxic and insulting attitude being spewed by your posts is frankly disgusting. You make me sick.

Just because someone has one or multiple Grand King tiers, doesn't make them a collector tier backer. They're getting tons of value from the Pro player tiers, which is not the same as someone who dropped money *specifically* for the Collector tier AAs. Should I have assumed that the Collector AAs would be terrible cards that are given away for free? I suppose i shouldnt have thought it impossible, but based on the KS AAs giving Extinction, Ragefire, Princess Victoria and Pack Raptor it seems absurd to think they would drop so far in quality as to be a card which is given out for free, and not even used. (For the last time , YES. One person used it in.the HEX TCG Pro, they ran two copies and came in 4th. This makes is less popular in high level constructed than 2 other starter rares and Genesis Hydra)

The VIP AA having to "earn it" is not a fair comparison at all, as a KS backer I have ONE ticket so far. If I was a VIP purchaser, a VIP exploiter or a KS multiboxer, I would have MULTIPLE tickets. Which means I could just coast through and 2-2 all my events to get a playset. Being a KS backer who has followed the rules, not done multiple accounts, not used my friend codes as an exploitative way to buy multiple VIPs means I'm now being punished by an absurd payout system. Aside from the fact that Collector Tier bought in specifically for AAs and VIPs didn't even find out that the tourneys would have AA prizes until this month. They bought in for cheap packs, why should they also get 1) more and 2) better AAs than the people who specifically dropped $250 to get AAs? As far as I'm concerned the only good thing about AA MC is that I might be able to sell it for enough to buy a good AA from an exploiter with a surplus. Whoopie!

I don't see this conversation as being productive in any way. You've decided to lash out with personal attacks regarding the intelligence and greed of everyone who disagrees with you. Enjoy your high horse. Just try not to let it shit on the rest of us.

Xenavire
09-24-2014, 12:50 PM
@Xen. We already are selling it. We're frustrated that it feels like CZE has taken our money and given us crap. Its frustrating because CZE Ty's explanation seems to be that these cards are basically being chosen at random, while VIP AAs are clearly power cards. The Collector AA is a garbage card that has the normal version being literally given away for free. Just because there are people like you that are willing to pay *way* more than this card is worth because of some absurd completionist[quote]

Um... That was pretty much the entire premise of the collector tier. To cater to COLLECTORS. People who want everything and frankly don't care if it is useful or not.

[quote]
compulsion or perverse desire to prove anyone who complains wrong doesn't give you the right to call anyone who disagrees with you an entitled ungrateful idiot. The toxic and insulting attitude being spewed by your posts is frankly disgusting. You make me sick.


I am not being toxic in the slightest - you are the one spewing crap about 'deserving' better than what was promised. I am saying that everything is being delivered as promised, no more, no less.



Just because someone has one or multiple Grand King tiers, doesn't make them a collector tier backer. They're getting tons of value from the Pro player tiers, which is not the same as someone who dropped money *specifically* for the Collector tier AAs. Should I have assumed that the Collector AAs would be terrible cards that are given away for free? I suppose i shouldnt have thought it impossible, but based on the KS AAs giving Extinction, Ragefire, Princess Victoria and Pack Raptor it seems absurd to think they would drop so far in quality as to be a card which is given out for free, and not even used. (For the last time , YES. One person used it in.the HEX TCG Pro, they ran two copies and came in 4th. This makes is less popular in high level constructed than 2 other starter rares and Genesis Hydra)


I am not really sure why this is even an argument. You paid for special artwork on cards. There was never any stipulation that said it would be good cards, ever. It doesn't matter what tier it came from (Collector, Grand king, etc) - the only thing, ever promised, is that they would be rare, collectible, and with special art. All of that is being delivered.




The VIP AA having to "earn it" is not a fair comparison at all, as a KS backer I have ONE ticket so far. If I was a VIP purchaser, a VIP exploiter or a KS multiboxer, I would have MULTIPLE tickets. Which means I could just coast through and 2-2 all my events to get a playset. Being a KS backer who has followed the rules, not done multiple accounts, not used my friend codes as an exploitative way to buy multiple VIPs means I'm now being punished by an absurd payout system. Aside from the fact that Collector Tier bought in specifically for AAs and VIPs didn't even find out that the tourneys would have AA prizes until this month. They bought in for cheap packs, why should they also get 1) more and 2) better AAs than the people who specifically dropped $250 to get AAs? As far as I'm concerned the only good thing about AA MC is that I might be able to sell it for enough to buy a good AA from an exploiter with a surplus. Whoopie!


Christ, whiny much? You could legitimately buy a sub back in April. I did - I have exactly 7 tickets, one for every month subbed, and one for my KS tier. No exploits. No cheating of any kind. Yes, I have plenty of chances at getting the AA - as will anyone who buys the year of VIP that is coming next week with the new patch/patcher (assuming the promises are all panning out correctly.)

If you refused to buy VIP for some reason, how can you compare that with buying into collector tier? You paid for one, not for the other (except the free months that were added as a bonus later.) As it is... Half the people who enter a given tournament walk away empty handed (unless my math is off, but it is a significant chunk either way.) That means even someone with 20 tickets, if they have terrible luck or are simply bad, could burn through 20 tickets and a LOT of plat (or did you forget that every ticket still needs a fee?) and walk away with nothing.

Earning something is a hell of a lot harder than getting 6 cards a year, for free, for life, off a single purchase. You don't seem to realise how stacked the deck is, or you think you are playing chess instead of poker, or whatever metaphor it takes to get through to you. You do nothing from this point onwards, and get rewards. And, thanks to the law of averages, you are going to get some very desirable cards (unless HexEnt is intent on screwing collectors over, which I highly doubt.)



I don't see this conversation as being productive in any way. You've decided to lash out with personal attacks regarding the intelligence and greed of everyone who disagrees with you. Enjoy your high horse. Just try not to let it shit on the rest of us.

Yes, because I am totally the one demanding better stuff because what I bought is giving me the wrong shiny stuff. Want to swap tiers with me? You have the king tier with the nearly complete set 1 playset, I get stuff that I couldn't physically afford to buy in the limited time window of the kickstarter.

I mean, you are acting like an upset child who got an Xbox for Christmas instead of a PS3. You got the wrong shiny thing, the world is ending. You see how bad that sounds?

Shaqattaq
09-24-2014, 05:08 PM
@Xen. We already are selling it. We're frustrated that it feels like CZE has taken our money and given us crap. Its frustrating because CZE Ty's explanation seems to be that these cards are basically being chosen at random, while VIP AAs are clearly power cards.

Please curb the personal attacks, and everyone else in the thread should too. Thank you.

As for what Ty said, that's not true.


One of the things we like to shoot for with alternate art is the chance to pair our artists with an image that will really speak to their personal style. For example we might have an artist who we realize paints zombies like a boss so we will try to give that person a chance to paint a zombie card. We can tell the same story but with a different flare. This is important so that players at a glance will still be able to identify the card but it strikes you as a premium collectorís item. We also consider how much a card will see play so naturally youíll find alternate art being created for cards of all different rarities, of course collectors tier backers wonít see commons or uncommons as their reward; Iím speaking in generalities. Taking all these factors into consideration creates a broader landscape of alternate art than can be more widely appreciated in game. I hope this gives you some additional insight into how the team on Hex makes these choices.

L1ght
09-24-2014, 10:44 PM
@Shaqattaq

"We also consider how much a card will see play..."

So to be clear you will consider how much a card will see play, But is that consideration with a goal of...

A: Finding a card that is played alot?

B: Finding a card that is infrequently used and outside the competitive meta?

Based on the first Collector Tier AA I am struggling to see how the card fits into a philosophy of choosing cards that are played often & see competitive use. That is what the concerned collectors in this thread are upset & worried about.

It's probably a bit late to change this first AA - and that's fine. But it would be nice to know going forward that Hex will be choosing cards for Collector AA that we'll actually want to include in our decks & show off in constructed tournys! I want to be excited to see what cards next and feel like I can't wait to baller it up in that next 128 player! That's the feeling that I expected when I bought Collector Tier and at the moment that's just not how I feel about it at all.

Chiany
09-24-2014, 11:23 PM
Did all the "collectors" who are complaining miss Colin's post about expecting this card to see a lot more play when set 2 arrives?
Not that it matters a lot, since it's about collecting first with this tier.
And even if it's not a tier 1 card, what's preventing you to play it?

And to all the ppl claiming they were promised top tier cards as AA from this tier, can show me the proof?
And don't come with statements "it's assumed..." since those aren't facts, just interpretations, and wrong ones.

Gwaer
09-25-2014, 04:37 AM
This card is very good. I ran it in a number of very competitive decks, my top8 Deck with only two copies was just one of several that I think could have finished that well that contained this card, and I will agree with Colin this card will see a lot of play in set 2, and will be quite strong for many moons to come. It's a great pick.

jonsnow2000
09-25-2014, 05:01 AM
I fully understand the disappointment about Theorycrafter being the first AA for the Collector tier. His ability is awesome, but he is way too easy to kill - pretty much every removal in Set 1 gets rid of him, even a simple burn. So if you go by "I want to be able to play this card in competitive decks" it's a pretty bad choice, at least for now. There might be options to protect him in Set 2.

Also, keep in mind that the Collector Tier AA was unreasonably delayed anyway - everyone understands that the PVE stuff isn't ready yet, but the Col. AA's should have been ready to go as soon as Closed Beta hit. So as a kind of apology, the AA of a really valuable Set 1 Rare like Living Totem or Ancestor's Chosen would have been very appreciated.

But on the other hand, the overly negative reactions here do seem a bit silly - and especially Glae seems to be hell-bent on making me feel stupid for offering 1800 Plat for each of his Theorycrafters. I don't do this to "prove you wrong" - I do this because I believe that these AA's will be very valuable in the long run. There will never be more than 6000 copys of each of these cards (in the hands of 3000 accounts) - compared to the (hopefully) millions of accounts that will be created for this game. This sort of rarity WILL command very high prizes, regardless of the art or rarity of the normal card.

benczi
09-25-2014, 05:50 AM
jonsnow Knows Nothing!

I'm hopeful that Master will see more play come Set 2. What I don't like about it is that it's an intro pack card.

DocX
09-25-2014, 06:44 AM
Did all the "collectors" who are complaining miss Colin's post about expecting this card to see a lot more play when set 2 arrives?

Did you miss my post about cards being desirable based on their current playability, not their future playability?


Not that it matters a lot, since it's about collecting first with this tier.
And even if it's not a tier 1 card, what's preventing you to play it?

Uhhh... having a chance at winning? Wanting to have fun playing and not being steamrolled? I know it's kinda crazy, but many people who collect cards in a TCG/CCG actually like to have fun playing the game they collect cards for.


And to all the ppl claiming they were promised top tier cards as AA from this tier, can show me the proof?
And don't come with statements "it's assumed..." since those aren't facts, just interpretations, and wrong ones.

Can you tell me where it says the collectors tier is only for people who collect cards and don't play?


This card is very good. I ran it in a number of very competitive decks, my top8 Deck with only two copies was just one of several that I think could have finished that well that contained this card, and I will agree with Colin this card will see a lot of play in set 2, and will be quite strong for many moons to come. It's a great pick.

I (and others) disagree.


I fully understand the disappointment about Theorycrafter being the first AA for the Collector tier. His ability is awesome, but he is way too easy to kill - pretty much every removal in Set 1 gets rid of him, even a simple burn. So if you go by "I want to be able to play this card in competitive decks" it's a pretty bad choice, at least for now. There might be options to protect him in Set 2.

And if there are, releasing the AA Theorycrafter after Set 2 makes it desirable to play would be awesome. Once that happens, then Theorycrafter would be a great pick. But having the AA before the desire for the AA is putting the proverbial cart before the proverbial horse.


Also, keep in mind that the Collector Tier AA was unreasonably delayed anyway - everyone understands that the PVE stuff isn't ready yet, but the Col. AA's should have been ready to go as soon as Closed Beta hit. So as a kind of apology, the AA of a really valuable Set 1 Rare like Living Totem or Ancestor's Chosen would have been very appreciated.

I would agree with that, but I don't want to risk being accused of only wanting Tier 1 cards.


But on the other hand, the overly negative reactions here do seem a bit silly - and especially Glae seems to be hell-bent on making me feel stupid for offering 1800 Plat for each of his Theorycrafters. I don't do this to "prove you wrong" - I do this because I believe that these AA's will be very valuable in the long run. There will never be more than 6000 copys of each of these cards (in the hands of 3000 accounts) - compared to the (hopefully) millions of accounts that will be created for this game. This sort of rarity WILL command very high prizes, regardless of the art or rarity of the normal card.

If (and only if) there is a demand for the cards. Even if there are millions of accounts, how many of those will want a Theorycrafter? That's the big unknown at the moment. I (and others) contend the demand will be low. Xen, Gwaer and others contend the demand will be high. We will know in the fullness of time who is right and who is not.

Chiany
09-25-2014, 06:52 AM
I was going to respond, but I don't feel much like talking to a wall.

DocX
09-25-2014, 10:12 AM
WARNING: ATTEMPTED LEVITY AHEAD!!!!


I was going to respond, but I don't feel much like talking to a wall.

Is it a Turreted Wall (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/f38c1a97-fd54-41ba-8934-09d4ec55d2f8.png) or a Wall of Corpses (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/e1b9978b-57c1-4344-9787-7df192c8477e.png)?

And if it's me who's the wall, I've always thought of myself as more of a Feral Ogre (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/03d076e1-caf7-4ab8-bedb-3706dabf0d65.png) (though I've lost a bit of weight over the past year or so which was my minor attempt at Immortality (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/2f53c59a-6cec-4b44-b844-0ab4c2ec5005.png) and Eternal Youth (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/ec78ce90-4343-4e2f-a1b9-acadee12c2b0.png) . . . or at least avoiding Wild Growth (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/340bbb6c-0eb7-4c39-b0e1-9e8f98634ec8.png) in my waistline).

It's possible my hunger has driven me to Chronic Madness (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/b717f238-7488-46fd-82a6-0d7f2efc9623.png) as reducing my caloric intake is a Maddening Nightmare (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/9dc6ec1b-881a-4f09-b89b-9317bfe451bb.png) at times engaging in Crazed Rummaging (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/f9fe3621-2f7e-4cbd-a6c4-43fdef6d7d4a.png) around my desk for snacks only to suffer a Crushing Blow (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/93c91dde-edfe-40e0-b700-b321b28ec813.png) after realizing I'd eaten them already having exercised poor Judgement (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/0931730a-c562-475c-b965-1725b0680c48.png) and gorging myself Yesterday (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/82569a4d-7cd0-408a-b819-a350c2b8fdb5.png).

Anyway, I may have gotten off topic. I don't want to come off as some Devoted Emissary (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/11d35d33-4755-4e68-92d1-3cad76c5cbf9.png) of some larger group or an Eternal Guardian (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/33ff83c0-a47b-4e0e-b130-340355e1eaa1.png) for some higher purpose, I only speak for myself and while I like to think of myself as an Enlightened Seeker (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/7e223c29-0cf7-47db-a814-f8c1eb828c00.png) of civil discourse. I think discussions like this start off with many folks taking the path of Noble Citizenry (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/605e3c79-21db-4281-927c-7685f39144e8.png) speaking with Crimson Clarity (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/27d5e7db-a1c4-45c1-9bb1-7108c3c288f9.png) of their ideals when, inevitably, disagreement comes along to Incite Fury (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/5b235faa-2a26-40b6-94fa-cc97792ec819.png) and Sabotage (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/04a37bb9-4fde-4cd0-8729-5ba59cb25926.png) the conversation causing it to Mutate (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/1946b13b-0434-4359-8d6e-010d2bd7d62b.png) and undergo a Hideous Conversion (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/228f03c8-34db-498b-ad7d-0042fb96158e.png). Eventually the Wind of Change (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/b1c31646-3375-4d02-878b-7f6f81445bd0.png) is complete and the only product of more posts is Misfortune (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/e43d9a57-2516-4748-98e1-034a24380d19.png) and Sorrow (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/80312e23-f8be-4531-b580-f9dacec72927.png). Merely posting in the thread causes an Inner Conflict (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/27f4a397-1aca-4910-9508-e91871d44284.png) for those haven't undergone a Total Meltdown (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/3904a1ff-205c-4b0e-8852-56584d3dae72.png) (or, the lucky few who Evolve (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/dada8b50-5c78-483a-a7c3-acca2fd4d7f2.png) a thick Stoneskin (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/3a40e27a-89aa-4c34-8c01-33a04cf255cb.png) or become one of The Transcended (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/339f334e-daab-4249-a05b-a6c4a27ca0a1.png)). Eventually people either ignore the thread (a Necessary Sacrifice (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/189d494b-571d-4d36-a312-fef0dddcd343.png) to maintain sanity) or the Hex folks, having come out of their Secret Laboratory (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/a588496a-5484-4be4-be4a-6c9b319fb5e2.png) undertake a Demolition (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/ca885038-fbe3-4f56-8824-d440c950449f.png) of the entire thread and everyone in it forcing an Extinction (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/9e7ac16c-5f12-4148-a5a1-0bbf67db2ccd.png) of discussion and, inevitably, a Terrible Transfer (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/d907b541-33fb-4d9a-bf3f-e9ebabb37c68.png) of invective to the next hot button thread.


But what do I know. Mongo... er DocX only Ivory Pawn (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/0f21cc07-670b-4875-933e-882bdc0d31d1.png) in game of life. Now, time to get back to work before my Furious Taskmaster (http://doc-x.net/hex/images/1c0b0ad3-812d-49e3-8ff8-a57bc326927a.png) of a boss catches me posting here.

Baker
09-25-2014, 12:29 PM
Just wanted to finally come out of lurking mode and post a couple of thoughts on the matter since I am a double collector and this thread has been all kinds of crazy.

I absolutely love the Master Theorycrafter AA. The art style and scene being so dramatically different from the original is a great contrast and I hope this design philosophy towards art selection moves forward with other AA choices. Art is subjective, but technique/polish not so much… This AA was very well done (as all AA cards have been up until this point!) Kudos to the artists and art director(s) keeping things in line.

Also wanted to throw in a +1 vote for any spawned cards from AA's having AA too, like the worker bots or AA zombies if the hints are accurate. That would really make things extra special for those cards.

However – after so much delay, there was a bit of a disappointment initially as this being the first big AA reveal. I can completely sympathize with those collectors who felt this was a bit of a gut punch. If it's going to be as good and as playable as everyone hints at, it would have been better to save for a reveal during set 2's release where it would have been appreciated more. Hopefully marketing lessons have been learned.

I think as a collector I've already gotten great value just from the generous gifting of an extra set of AA cards that Cory applied to our tiers for reaching the stretch goals. Double Lotus Gardens, KS exclusive cards and AA cards? Are you kidding, on top of a year of drafts and the 6 cards a year for life… For only 130 bucks more than King level. We got a hell of a deal. Some of the people complaining really need to remember we were already bumped up quite a bit during the campaign. As long as the AA card choices are truly going to be picked on playability then I will be completely happy with any selection CZE sees fit.

So who do I need to bribe at CZE to get Living Totem AA's where each upgrade throughout the match changes the card art?! I'll trade you guys some design work for it – any takers?!

Shaqattaq
09-25-2014, 12:50 PM
@Shaqattaq

"We also consider how much a card will see play..."

So to be clear you will consider how much a card will see play, But is that consideration with a goal of...

A: Finding a card that is played alot?

B: Finding a card that is infrequently used and outside the competitive meta?

Based on the first Collector Tier AA I am struggling to see how the card fits into a philosophy of choosing cards that are played often & see competitive use. That is what the concerned collectors in this thread are upset & worried about.

It's probably a bit late to change this first AA - and that's fine. But it would be nice to know going forward that Hex will be choosing cards for Collector AA that we'll actually want to include in our decks & show off in constructed tournys! I want to be excited to see what cards next and feel like I can't wait to baller it up in that next 128 player! That's the feeling that I expected when I bought Collector Tier and at the moment that's just not how I feel about it at all.

There are many factors that go into choosing all our alternate art cards, including Collector's Tier cards, and Ty did a great job of outlining most of them. How much a card will see play is one of the many factors he outlined.

As this thread shows, players as individuals will voice their priorities, desires for an individual card. What's important to one player may not be of low priority to another, so individual players will have a variety of reactions to individual cards. It's subjective. Even the definitions of "playability" are going to be very different across players who prioritize that, and that definition is also very fluid from week-to-week and month-to-month as new cards are introduced, what the most popular strategy is at any given time, etc...

The Collector's Tier rewards go on forever, so there will be years upon years of these rewards given out-- in pairs no less because we wanted to make players happy with the double-up stretch reward. Overall, players will find some cards more desirable than others and that's going to happen when serving the needs of nearly two thousand HEX fans who receive these rewards. We hope that all can have a greater appreciation for those who may disagree with a single assessment of a card, and we hope that you all find cards as we move from set to set that give you that elated feeling when we hit that perfect note. And if a particular card doesn't speak to you, part of being "a collector" is trading and obtaining other cards that you want. You'll always be able to find a player who wants your card and in turn, get something else that you're chasing while hopefully also making more friends within the community.

Edit: Corrected the number of players receiving Collector's Tier rewards

ossuary
09-25-2014, 12:54 PM
Preach. :)

L1ght
09-25-2014, 03:48 PM
Thanks Shaqattaq,

I think after 17 pages its pretty obvious peoples feelings on this first Collector Tier AA is very divided and while some people are happy with it, many others are clearly quite disappointed and upset.

Maybe that will be the case for all of them - After all every card, as you say, is subjective. And each aspect of the card will vary in opinion, the new art style, it's perceived value, it's relative rarity, it's "playability" etc etc. But I suspect after the long wait and being the first big reveal there was just more hype and pressure on this first card and for a lot of Collectors it failed to live up that expectation. As first time poster Baker (welcome!) said this card might very well have been received better as the 2nd-3rd card, especially if Set 2 was out & Colin's assessment of it's value in the new meta was accurate.

There are a lot more Collector Tier AA cards to come in HEX's hopefully long and vibrant life and I very much hope that among those cards everyone will get a chance to have that elated feeling when they get a card that hits their perfect note. I also hope HEX takes on board some of the concerns raised in this thread by the Collectors for whom this card did not hit the mark so that you can spread some of the love around and everyone can have a turn at being excited.

Xenavire
09-26-2014, 02:38 PM
You know what? I am willing to throw down cash to buy AA Zombie Plagues if they happen. I hate the current art, so if anyone wants a decent deal, think of me first - I want me a set.

This is completely separate from any discussion - I just want AA Plagues.

hammer
09-30-2014, 10:49 AM
Sneaky, sneaky , Ty! ;)



Sneaky indeed.

Glae
09-30-2014, 01:39 PM
There are many factors that go into choosing all our alternate art cards, including Collector's Tier cards, and Ty did a great job of outlining most of them. How much a card will see play is one of the many factors he outlined

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. As an upset Collector backer, Ty's post poured gasoline on the flames. L1ght had a question for clarification which I felt was valid: "by considering how often a card sees play" is the intention that AAs will be cards that do or don't see constructed play?

Ultimately it doesn't matter because that same post told us that Hex will be choosing cards of all different rarities (rarity of course not meaning rarity, but the frequently of its use in constructed)

So you say Hex considers how often a card is being used, but then also that it will include cards regardless of how often they're used, so then it doesn't matter. At all. At that point you're selecting them based on what would make good art, effectively choosing the card at random. Since your art director has creative control and if Hex wanted different art for a card, that would just be what you got from the artist.

Meanwhile, the VIP AAs are two staple rares, and the client has had an AA soul marble for months. So clearly Hex does know how to pick good cards for AAs that will be hotly contested on the auction house, they're just being given to the people who didn't spend their money for AAs. Or in the case of soul marble, apparently wasted.

N3rd4Christ
09-30-2014, 01:40 PM
AA comet strike would be nice

Zomnivore
09-30-2014, 08:53 PM
Honestly I think Master Theorycrafter is a good card to turn into a Collector AA, it displays a lot of variety, and is sick as ****.

I do want a legendary AA, but I want one that is interesting to play, in the same sort of bent as Master Theorycrafter, just dense levels of variety to do what you will.

I also like the token aspect and hope /seriously hope that the token troop is AA.

In total I think Master Theorycrafter is an excellent example of good unique Hex card.

I'd love to see an interesting legendary get the same treatment.

L1ght
09-30-2014, 10:13 PM
I'd love to see an interesting legendary get the same treatment.

The problem with 'interesting' cards is that while they may be fun, it is hard to include them in serious decks.

And what I've taken away from CZE's response is that it's OK to have some 'interesting' cards for players who want those, as long as there are some cards for serious players who are looking for something to include in a competitive constructed deck.

Everyone wants something different and as long CZE rotates the cards such that everyone gets a turn at that "elated feeling when we hit that perfect note" I'm fine with it. Master Theorycrafter is not the card that I and many people wanted, but I have faith that the next one or the one after that will be.

DocX
10-01-2014, 08:26 AM
the problem with 'interesting' cards is that while they may be fun, it is hard to include them in serious decks.

And what i've taken away from cze's response is that it's ok to have some 'interesting' cards for players who want those, as long as there are some cards for serious players who are looking for something to include in a competitive constructed deck.

Everyone wants something different and as long cze rotates the cards such that everyone gets a turn at that "elated feeling when we hit that perfect note" i'm fine with it. Master theorycrafter is not the card that i and many people wanted, but i have faith that the next one or the one after that will be.

qft

wolzarg
10-01-2014, 05:28 PM
I also like the token aspect and hope /seriously hope that the token troop is AA.
If this is how it is i think its much more worthy of the collector AA spot honestly.

DocX
10-05-2014, 03:48 PM
As someone critical of the choice of Master Theorycrafter as the initial AA for the Collector's Tier, let me say I wholeheartedly applaud the choice of Living Totem as the second Collector's Tier AA. While I'm a little sad bootlace will be getting one of mine, I think this card will have a much higher value long-term than Theorycrafter from a playability standpoint and, therefore, from a collectibility standpoint.

Props to the Hex team for a good second step after an (IMO) initial misstep. Hoping future choices are similarly awesome.

AstaSyneri
10-06-2014, 06:06 AM
We are complaining on a high level here. Considering some other games gave out AA/Ext.A Commons as "great" prizes, these are pretty darn well done. Living Totem is absolutely one of the better rares with great new art, and Master Theorycrafter isn't too shabby either. It could be a lot, LOT worse.

Think about about it: How many cards are there, that really have even more utility and are rare+?

nickon
10-14-2014, 07:18 AM
We are complaining on a high level here. Considering some other games gave out AA/Ext.A Commons as "great" prizes, these are pretty darn well done. Living Totem is absolutely one of the better rares with great new art, and Master Theorycrafter isn't too shabby either. It could be a lot, LOT worse.

Think about about it: How many cards are there, that really have even more utility and are rare+?

Maybe gralk and inquisitor? :)