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View Full Version : Reversion kills Abomination: Bug or bad desription



eimerian
10-11-2014, 01:34 AM
Let's say you sacrifice two 1/1 troops, with Bun'jitsu's ability.

What should happen according to Bun'jitsu's desription:
A 5/5 abomination is created and put into play.
Reversion on this troop should only take it back to it's default 5/5 state.

What actually happens in game:
A 0/0 is created, put in play, and buffed to 5/5.
Reversion takes it back to 0/0 and kills it.

This is either a bug or Bun'jitsu's ability is explained wrong in game.

Xenavire
10-11-2014, 03:50 AM
It is badly worded - the abomination is a base 0/0 so reversion kills it.

Jeevus
10-11-2014, 04:47 AM
Not really Xenavire. You can't assume that the wording is wrong, just because they coded Abomination the way they did. It's also possible the Abo was just coded badly and should enter the play as a vanilla with stats x/x. Not to mention the Abo should be, at least, 0/3.

I feel that they made it easy for themselves and took an existing effect to use it for the abomination instead of coding it entirely new to have it work as it supposed to. Since it's "close enough".


Granted, at this point its easy to say: "Wording is off" to resolve the issue.

ossuary
10-11-2014, 05:27 AM
When you create a troop with variable stats, as opposed to a troop with hard defined stats, it is always defaulted to a 0/0 and then buffed up to its intended stats. It's the same with Tetzot's Rock Elemental. If you look at the link to Abomination in the champion selection screen, you will see that it is indeed a 0/0 troop by default.

http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/Abomination.jpg

It is definitely working as intended that reversion kills it. I suppose you can make an argument that the wording is a little vague, but again, you can click through the champion's power to see the abomination's default state, and as soon as you understand that a troop that starts life as a 0/0 and has no "gets +x/+x" style buff dies to reversion, you should understand how this card works.

Xenavire
10-11-2014, 07:17 AM
Exactly what Oss said. It is a base 0/0. At worst it is bad wording.

eimerian
10-11-2014, 07:31 AM
So I guess we all agree that this:
2373
should be changed into something like:

Void two readied troops you control -> Create an Abomination and put it into play exhausted. As it comes into play, it gets power equal to 3 plus the combined power of the voided troops and toughness equal to 3 plus their combined toughness of the voided troops.

Jeevus
10-11-2014, 08:03 PM
Both of you didn't get my point. Just because most other cards work like that, doesn't necessarily mean all cards have to work like that either. It's just convenient because they don't have to code the appropriate effect.

And that card, going for the wording (probably as the card designers intended) states clearly that the Abo effect is a static ability, not a triggered one. So reversion shouldn't kill it.
On a side note: If it was a wording issue, it should still be a 0/3 Abomination, not a 0/0, because the 3 Defense is still static, unless the effect works like in my next point.


But like i previously said. It's pretty easy to claim that the wording was off and should be changed to something like: "When Abomination is created by Bun'jitsu, void two troops you control and Abomination gets +x Attack where x is the combined attack of the voided troops and +3+x defense, where x is the combined defense of the voided troops".

ossuary
10-11-2014, 08:10 PM
I got your point just fine, it's just that you're just wrong. There is no such thing as a static ability. If you mean it's a continuous effect, you're also wrong about that, because if it WERE continuous, it would be listed on the Abomination itself, and the wording on Bun'Jitsu would have to be something like this:

"Void 2 readied troops you control, and create an Abomination that has 'This troop gets 3 + attack of the voided troops and 3 + defense of the voided troops.' and put it into play exhausted."

That is not what it says, or how it works. Creating something with something is a one-time, permanent effect, it is NOT a continuous buff. Permanent modifications are removed when a card is reverted. It is worded correctly, it is working correctly. Again, you could POSSIBLY make an argument that it could be worded more clearly than it is, but your assertion that the stats are "static" is completely wrong, even aside from your incorrect terminology.

MatWith1T
10-11-2014, 09:11 PM
It's not a buff or a modification at all. When the Abomination is created, its atk/def are pegged to specific values. It does not gain any +atk or +def. You create a troop with X/Y and put it into play. It is static in that it should be white text, like any other troop.

However, accurately creating that effect would require Hex to program an Abomination with every permutation of ATK/DEF possible as white text, and then choosing the right one to summon when the power is activated. Instead, they use a generic 0/0 template and buff it, which logistically makes a million times more sense. It is not, however, the wording on the card.

Pegasus
10-11-2014, 10:06 PM
Will reversion kill briar legion? it's 0/0 by default i suppose.

eimerian
10-11-2014, 11:19 PM
However, accurately creating that effect would require Hex to program an Abomination with every permutation of ATK/DEF possible as white text, and then choosing the right one to summon when the power is activated. Instead, they use a generic 0/0 template and buff it, which logistically makes a million times more sense. It is not, however, the wording on the card.

I really hope that this doesn't set a precedent for future cards.
You can't just say "Well, coding it the right way would have been tricky, so they didn't"

Why not code it in a way that a X/Y Abomination is created, X and Y both being white default numbers, not green buffs, and then put into play?
One of the awesome things about Hex is that cards can be created on the fly during the game because it's all digital.
Abomination at the moment doesn't utilize this, it's a "0/0 token with counters on it" basically.


Will reversion kill briar legion? it's 0/0 by default i suppose.
No, that is different.
Briar Legion's toughness is a certain number. Reversion doesn't change that.
Honeycap's toughness becomes a certain number as it enters play. This can be reverted to 0.

Edswor
10-12-2014, 12:41 AM
No, that is different.
Briar Legion's toughness is a certain number. Reversion doesn't change that.
Honeycap's toughness becomes a certain number as it enters play. This can be reverted to 0.

Not exactly, Briar Legion's toughness is still 0/0, but has a continuous buff so when it's reverted it goes to 0/0 but immediately to X/X again.

kaiizza
10-12-2014, 07:55 AM
I really hope that this doesn't set a precedent for future cards.
You can't just say "Well, coding it the right way would have been tricky, so they didn't"

Why not code it in a way that a X/Y Abomination is created, X and Y both being white default numbers, not green buffs, and then put into play?
One of the awesome things about Hex is that cards can be created on the fly during the game because it's all digital.
Abomination at the moment doesn't utilize this, it's a "0/0 token with counters on it" basically.


No, that is different.
Briar Legion's toughness is a certain number. Reversion doesn't change that.
Honeycap's toughness becomes a certain number as it enters play. This can be reverted to 0.

You seem to be missing the point of reversion. They have lots of troops that are 0/0 for a reason. It gives reversion something to kill. This is most likely intended and will continue to be the normal way they implement tokens that get a one time buff during creation.

MatWith1T
10-12-2014, 08:04 AM
It can't really be coded that way because the game doesn't create cards that way... all the cards that are created during a game already exist in the game's card database. To do that with abomination with white text would require adding a 3/4, 3/5, 4/4... 100/100 version of the card in the database.

That would be absurd. So they buff a 0/0 instead. But again, it's not a one time buff. There's not ever any buff according to the ability text. It's just the only way to actually pull off this ability from a code perspective.

eimerian
10-12-2014, 09:57 AM
You seem to be missing the point of reversion. They have lots of troops that are 0/0 for a reason. It gives reversion something to kill. This is most likely intended and will continue to be the normal way they implement tokens that get a one time buff during creation.
You seem to be missing the point of this thread.
I'm well aware that reversion kills several 0/0 troops, that get a one time buff when they come into play.
That is not the point at all.

The point is that this is not congruent with the way Bun'jitsu's ability is described.
If the developers intended Abomination to come into play and be buffed like Honeycup or Hero of Adamanth, Bun'jitsu's text should reflect that.

brelse
10-13-2014, 01:04 AM
It can't really be coded that way because the game doesn't create cards that way... all the cards that are created during a game already exist in the game's card database. To do that with abomination with white text would require adding a 3/4, 3/5, 4/4... 100/100 version of the card in the database.

That would be absurd. So they buff a 0/0 instead. But again, it's not a one time buff. There's not ever any buff according to the ability text. It's just the only way to actually pull off this ability from a code perspective.

It is not absurd to believe that in a digital game that card types could be created dynamically on the fly. A lot has been made about how the digital nature of the game allows for new designs to be explored and it is quite plausible that this is an area where Hex could be innovating.

I believe this could probably be implemented by having some sort of 'template' card type in the database which could be used to generated card types at runtime of the required attack/defence values. Alternatively, the charge power could generate the card much like it does now (0/0, followed by buff) and then 'freeze' card to set the current card stats as the base stats of the card. There may well be something in the rules which I am missing that prevents such an approach working.

It is quite possible that what I outlined above would not be easy to implement in the current codebase (I, of course, have not seen the
current codebase - nor, I presume, has anybody else commenting on the thread).

Currently, the wording and the implementation of the ability do not match. It is not for us to say that bug is in the wording or the implementation.

All that being said, I think that the wording is more likely to change.:)

ossuary
10-13-2014, 03:40 AM
Why does everyone assume that it was a technical limitation, rather than intentional, that allows the card to be killed by reversion? The way the card is worded does not justify a completely different mechanic to generate a card with base stats equal to the values, versus the way it's actually created (a 0/0 troop shell that gets a one-time buff to set it to the right level). There are plenty of 0/0 troops out there, why does this one have to be some kind of weird outlier just to satisfy someone's OCD interpretation of 1-2 words?

It works the way they designed it to work. The end.

MatWith1T
10-13-2014, 10:24 AM
It works the way they designed it to work. The end.
That's a really lousy justification for a game in beta... especially in the bug report forum. ;)
It works the way it works. It doesn't work the way it's described.

ossuary
10-13-2014, 10:49 AM
That's a really lousy justification for a game in beta

Only if the way it worked wasn't the way it was intended to work. Which is not the case in this case, so... :)

dogmod
10-13-2014, 11:59 AM
Only if the way it worked wasn't the way it was intended to work. Which is not the case in this case, so... :)

And this is how someone gets to near 5k posts. Unless you have some actual direct knowledge of their intentions during game design don't imply you do.

The wording indicates to me that it should not die to reversion. I agree that this is a bug. Lots of people were claiming that angel wasn't broken. And then it was confirmed it was.

Glae
10-13-2014, 12:36 PM
Only if the way it worked wasn't the way it was intended to work. Which is not the case in this case, so... :)
Ugh. The way it works isn't the way it says it works, so either the intent is wrong or the implementation is. Please don't speak to how it was intended to work unless you have inside information into that intent. Which... you don't.

LNQ
10-13-2014, 01:22 PM
In this case, you can figure out how it will work by clicking the Abomination link in Bunjitsu's ability description. Therefore I have to agree with ossuary this time, that the game has all the info necessary for a player to know how the Abomination will work when reversed.

I'm very much in favor of having card descriptions be 100% clear for players, but this is a case where the info is out there already and reversion is working as intended. However the wording should indeed be changed to something similar to eirean's suggestion.

dogmod
10-14-2014, 01:01 AM
In this case, you can figure out how it will work by clicking the Abomination link in Bunjitsu's ability description. Therefore I have to agree with ossuary this time, that the game has all the info necessary for a player to know how the Abomination will work when reversed.

I'm very much in favor of having card descriptions be 100% clear for players, but this is a case where the info is out there already and reversion is working as intended. However the wording should indeed be changed to something similar to eirean's suggestion.

This is false logic. Briar legion is listed as a 0/0 does that mean that it should revert to 0/0? While the game text is not on the abomination the fact is that the game text is within the ability. The ability does not state "create an abomination which then gets +/+ for blah blah" It says create an abomination with Atk = this and Def = this. It has those values when "created" How can you revert something prior to the state it was created at?

Just saying that because the ability shows a 0/0 abomination when clicked on is enough information is false.

ossuary
10-14-2014, 07:29 AM
The difference is that Briar Legion says right on it "This troop gets" which is a continuous effect and the card cannot be reverted to a state in which that text is not there. Abomination is a 0/0 troop with no ability listed on it at all, which is its default state. The default state is what reversion is all about, so that's the key difference.

You're really trying to make this more complicated than it is.

Scammanator
10-14-2014, 08:46 AM
The quick-and-dirty rule about whether or not something is affected by reversion is if the effect has a stated duration (e.g. "this turn" "permanent" etc.)

Look at the wording on Tetzot: "Reveal the top ten cards of your deck. Create a Rock Elemental, and it gets permanent +1/+1 for each resource revealed this way." Clicking the Rock Elemental shows that the base card is a 0/0. There should be no confusion here about what reversion will do.

Bun'jitsu does not have a similar time modifier, so the confusion about how reversion interacts with it is understandable.

I do think it should interact in a similar way to Tetzot with a revertible, permanent buff, but the card does need to be reworded to communicate this.

ossuary
10-14-2014, 12:27 PM
Follow your own instructions. Abomination is the same 0/0, with no ability text. It functions identically to Rock Elemental, it just derives its initial stats via a different, functionally identical, method.

dogmod
10-14-2014, 12:37 PM
Follow your own instructions. Abomination is the same 0/0, with no ability text. It functions identically to Rock Elemental, it just derives its initial stats via a different, functionally identical, method.

One of two things will happen ossuary. They will make the card not revert able or they will change the text and I just want to mark this moment so that you won't be able to go back in time and somehow think you were right.

Part of why people who are often wrong but always think they are right persist in that belief is because they misremember events in retrospect as ego defense .

Xenavire
10-14-2014, 01:14 PM
I am torn on it, as it stands. While I think it is working as intended, it bugs me that the duration of the buff isn't stated (since the rules for reversion clearly state that anything with no duration listed would be a constant effect, and those can't be reverted.)

So I think a slight change to the wording is actually needed, but I think the current implementation of the effect is correct.

But since the abomination itself doesn't have text, there is a legitimate argument for this not being a CE, and still worded correctly - we don't have any other created 0/0 troops to compare it to except for Rock Elemental, so we don't know if they have a specific convention for that. Does a created troop need to specifically state that the att/def it receives is permanent? It isn't something we can say with 100% certainty. Makes me wonder, and I am pining for the damn comprehensive rules.

ossuary
10-14-2014, 04:09 PM
One of two things will happen ossuary. They will make the card not revert able or they will change the text and I just want to mark this moment so that you won't be able to go back in time and somehow think you were right.

Part of why people who are often wrong but always think they are right persist in that belief is because they misremember events in retrospect as ego defense .

Or they won't change the effect, because it's already working the way they want it to (which I do, in fact, know for a fact, thank you very much), and they won't change the text either, because the description and information available by clicking through to the abomination sufficiently explain the functionality that a costly text change is not justified for the fringe case where someone is legitimately confused. Then I will happily watch you eat your words. :)

Remember: we still don't have a full, detailed rulebook. When we do, stuff like this will be much less opaque and easier for the average, non-expert player to intuit.

Scammanator
10-14-2014, 07:20 PM
Follow your own instructions. Abomination is the same 0/0, with no ability text. It functions identically to Rock Elemental, it just derives its initial stats via a different, functionally identical, method.

I agree, and I was not disputing that. My point was that the wording between two functionally identical abilities was different, which is bad form and understandably confusing. Especially when Bun'jitsu's wording is missing the time modifier that all other revertible buffs have.

Glae
10-16-2014, 08:55 AM
I actually don't care what the intention is, or even what ultimately happens to Bunjitsu interaction with Reversion. The text could be changed to reflect how it currently works, or the effect could be changed to reflect how its currently worded.

But one way or another it should be changed.