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BloodyStalker
11-19-2014, 01:24 PM
First i want to tell you guys is that im not native speaker, so if i commit a mistake please i apologies.

Im actually watching how at the moment Hex Shards of fate is working.

I can almost say that the balance of the game can be completly broken if countinues like that.
Since there is almost no way to progress being a free user.
there is no tournaments managed by gold, there is also no boosterpacks managed by gold too

And in the action house most cards are managed by platinum, well if you want a gold rare card, most people offer you like
15.000-28.000 gold for a single copy of a rare card.



i can maybe say that you wont find some cards or some people will just put exsesive prices.
Lets take a look.

uncommon cards can cost 800-1800.
there are also another uncommon cards that usually are inside the starter decks that wont cost that much.
Thats fine for me i dont have any problem with some of those prices.

Rare cards are just.... really irrealistic prices.
10000-25000 per card lol

you wont find a legendary card below 32000, some offer 60000 and randomlly you can see 90000 for a single card.

this will just depend on how much times you win per day something completly relative on how much you play per day and how decent your deck is..
Wins per day in proving grounds.

2 w per d: 4000 in 20 days
3 w per d: 6000 in 20 days
4 w per d: 8000 in 20 days
5 w per d: 10000 in 20 days
6 w per d:12000 in 20 days
10 w p d: 20000 in 20 days

as you can see in the best case you need to wait 1 month and a few weeks without buying anything to get a single copy of a cheap legendary card. (not a good idea)
and in a normal case you need to wait full 2 months withotu buying anything to get a single copy of a legendary.

now i just want to say that it would be good giving more importance to gold in the game

You guys can handdle better this for example adding basic Booster packs that can cost gold

for example a 5 card booster pack who can cost gold, dont know like 5000 or something
and you can balance this adding a chance rate to drop some rare card or something if you know what i mean

Or even gold based tournaments or something for the free users.

The objective of this is making the game more competitive without the needings of paying platinum.


we all know how works and we all know that you guys need to pay some costs for the develop of the game
But remember that you got 2.4M in the kickstarter to continue developing the game and also microtransactions are a permanent money income in the game that will get in each state of the game so there is no excuse

thank you so much if you readed the complete post and as i said at the beginning
Sorry if i did a mistake.

Vorpal
11-19-2014, 01:27 PM
There is a free to play path planned for the game, but it isn't in yet. You are right that currently there really isn't any way to progress without plunking down plat.

Svenn
11-19-2014, 01:35 PM
This is all a moot point because, as Vorpal said, the f2p part of the game just isn't in yet. PvE is the free to play side of the game, and it just doesn't exist yet. When PvE is in you will be able to earn PvE cards, equipment, gold, etc which you can sell on the AH for gold/plat to other players and earn a bunch.

The little bits of gold in the game right now from proving grounds/tournaments will be removed when PvE is in and the only way to earn gold will be through PvE. The current gold earnings are just a temporary thing to give free users SOMETHING to do.

noragar
11-19-2014, 01:36 PM
as you can see in the best case you need to wait 1 month and a few weeks without buying anything to get a single copy of a cheap legendary card. (not a good idea)
and in a normal case you need to wait full 2 months withotu buying anything to get a single copy of a legendary.


Maybe try going a local store in your area and see how long you need to wait without buying anything before they start giving you stuff for free.

If everything in the game were given out for free, then why would anyone ever buy anything?

nicosharp
11-19-2014, 01:39 PM
So the complaint is that good PVP cards cost a ton of gold? Gold which is free? Gold that will be earned through PvE?

If you don't think the company deserves real money for the PvP cards, you should come back to play when PvE is available and PvE rewards are free.

Until then, you are a victim of the economy, especially if your goal is to play PvP, and get PvP cards for free.

BloodyStalker
11-19-2014, 01:40 PM
This is all a moot point because, as Vorpal said, the f2p part of the game just isn't in yet. PvE is the free to play side of the game, and it just doesn't exist yet. When PvE is in you will be able to earn PvE cards, equipment, gold, etc which you can sell on the AH for gold/plat to other players and earn a bunch.

The little bits of gold in the game right now from proving grounds/tournaments will be removed when PvE is in and the only way to earn gold will be through PvE. The current gold earnings are just a temporary thing to give free users SOMETHING to do.
Sorry, ¿What do you mean with PvE?
In that case ill continue playing untill the PvE is released but...¿it will take too long to be updated to that?
¿Can you please give me a link to read about it?
thank you.

Svenn
11-19-2014, 01:43 PM
So the complaint is that good PVP cards cost a ton of gold? Gold which is free? Gold that will be earned through PvE?

If you don't think the company deserves real money for the PvP cards, you should come back to play when PvE is available and PvE rewards are free.

Until then, you are a victim of the economy, especially if your goal is to play PvP, and get PvP cards for free.
I don't think he knows about PvE f2p stuff.

Crypto, can we PLEASE get some giant text in client that explains that the PvE portion is the f2p portion and it's not in yet? Complaints about the free to play aspect of the game are becoming more and more common (I swear someone complains every 15 minutes in game about it, not knowing that the f2p is coming later). We've had several posts similar to this one, and I've seen posts where people admit they have no idea what the f2p plans are for this game. This is driving people away as they see what is currently here and think it's expected that they grind hundreds of hours for a card. In fact, I'm pretty sure putting gold in the proving grounds has made this worse as now people think that's the way it's supposed to work.

nicosharp
11-19-2014, 01:45 PM
I've asked for that too Svenn... More than once
Especially for those foreign to the United states, and people foreign to utilizing websites and forums to glean information.... No one will do their own research. They will just make an account and then make a post like this in frustration and lack of knowledge.

Dat's why they call it Ninja Beta.

Barkam
11-19-2014, 01:48 PM
It is worse when they dont even bother posting to ask questions.

Svenn
11-19-2014, 01:48 PM
Sorry, ¿What do you mean with PvE?
In that case ill continue playing untill the PvE is released but...¿it will take too long to be updated to that?
¿Can you please give me a link to read about it?
thank you.
The first part of PvE is scheduled for December, the Arena (though realistically expect January I'd say).

The PvE... well, you will be going through a map picking locations completing quests, usually by card battles against special AI. More information on the PvE itself can be found here: https://hextcg.com/game/dungeons-raids/

When playing PvE the bosses will drop loot (PvE specific cards, equipment, gold, etc). As a free player you can do all of this without spending any money. You can collect all the loot you want. You can then sell that loot on the AH to other players, which is how you will be able to buy the PvP stuff. Since some of it will be very rare, there will be a market of people looking to buy the stuff from PvE.

BloodyStalker
11-19-2014, 01:48 PM
I don't think he knows about PvE f2p stuff.

Crypto, can we PLEASE get some giant text in client that explains that the PvE portion is the f2p portion and it's not in yet? Complaints about the free to play aspect of the game are becoming more and more common (I swear someone complains every 15 minutes in game about it, not knowing that the f2p is coming later). We've had several posts similar to this one, and I've seen posts where people admit they have no idea what the f2p plans are for this game. This is driving people away as they see what is currently here and think it's expected that they grind hundreds of hours for a card. In fact, I'm pretty sure putting gold in the proving grounds has made this worse as now people think that's the way it's supposed to work.

Exactly bro.
That's almost all i thought haha...I didnt knew that there will be another way to guet them and i was close to leave the game.
ive read some minor updates but i didnt knew this stuff about the PvE.


So the complaint is that good PVP cards cost a ton of gold? Gold which is free? Gold that will be earned through PvE?
If you don't think the company deserves real money for the PvP cards, you should come back to play when PvE is available and PvE rewards are free.

please, relax.
I didnt knew about the PvE thing untill they started talking about
Nobody said they dont deserve that money.
I was just saying that if you are going to grind hundreds of hours for a single card it doesnt make since and slows enormouslly your progress, thats all.

nicosharp
11-19-2014, 01:51 PM
I didnt knew about the PvE thing untill they started talking about
Nobody said they dont deserve that money.
I was just saying that if you are going to grind hundreds of hours for a single card it doesnt make since and slows enormouslly your progress, thats all.
That's fine. The game doesn't do a great job about explaining their roll-out plan or marketing model within the game. It takes time and energy to find that stuff out. You aren't expected to grind the PvP content. It is not a realistic expectation. But it is all the game provides you with now, since PvE is not released.

Vorpal
11-19-2014, 01:53 PM
I have been saying for a long time that beta for your f2p beta is very dangerous, and the increasing frequency of these posts bears that out.

Ideally pve would have come before open beta, but I can understand that financial considerations override that.

Agree that some sort of page laying out the pve/f2p vision for the game and warning it is not yet implemented would be a good thing. Especially if it was in the client itself.

plaguedealer
11-19-2014, 01:58 PM
To the op, hopefully pve will have some type of system that will allow you to pick up pvp cards without ridiculous grind. No one knows exactly how that system will work, but hopefully people will trade pvp cards for gold in order to open up chests. If pve has no ecosystem at all and the grind to get pvp cards is like proving grounds today, then yea there is a serious problem. Right now it is too early to tell.

Svenn
11-19-2014, 02:03 PM
To the op, hopefully pve will have some type of system that will allow you to pick up pvp cards without ridiculous grind. No one knows exactly how that system will work, but hopefully people will trade pvp cards for gold in order to open up chests. If pve has no ecosystem at all and the grind to get pvp cards is like proving grounds today, then yea there is a serious problem. Right now it is too early to tell.
PvE will be the only way to get gold. PvP only players will want some gold for rolling chests and will sell some PvP cards for gold. That's one way the interaction happens.

Also, some PvE only players will be willing to pay for certain cards/loot that are rare rather than take the time to earn them (this happens in every game, look at the market for any other MMO in terms of people buying in-game items/gold for real money).

People that play PvE AND PvP will have no problem trading back and forth between various cards or gold/platinum for whatever they want. I fall into this category, and I know that I'll be willing to spend plat or trade PvP cards for the rarer PvE items.

The only way this would fail is if it was too easy to get everything in PvE yourself... but they've already said it will be VERY hard to do that. Also, with how they've already handled stuff like AA cards/wheels of fate I trust that they know how to create rare items.

BloodyStalker
11-19-2014, 02:11 PM
That's fine. The game doesn't do a great job about explaining their roll-out plan or marketing model within the game. It takes time and energy to find that stuff out. You aren't expected to grind the PvP content. It is not a realistic expectation. But it is all the game provides you with now, since PvE is not released.
That sarcasm
Im acting by first impresion.
i mean this is an open beta stage and usually you wont see the pay focused part first than the free to play part for obvius reazons, i was also just trying the game, i read and asked somethings in the chat and that stuff
but hey, what can i say, i been playing for 2 days im not the master research too i have a lot of things to check about the game.
was just testing the game a bit, i liked the game thats why i maked this post.
They also dont warn you in the game client.

Sorry in case that wasnt sarcasm....

cavench
11-19-2014, 02:17 PM
I can't blame BloodStalker for being uninformed. It is public beta now and it is time for a revised write up to clarify what HexTCG is about; then put it in huge banner on homepage. Even as a kickstarter, there are some concepts that I'm still confused with. For example, the F2P portion of HexTCG is the MMO, also called PvE; does that mean there is no PvP at all in the MMO? If raid is the only interaction among players in the MMO, then it is more like Diablo-ish small parties which I wouldn't call it a MMO. So far, majority of the MMO info released has been focused on the Arena and The Kraken Dungeon; it is good stuff but now I'm hunger for more info on the social aspect that will pull the MMO experience together.

I believe I read somewhere that Cory also thinks it is time to clear up the definition on PvE and PvP. I'm looking forward to that.

Xenavire
11-19-2014, 02:19 PM
I can't blame BloodStalker for being uninformed. It is public beta now and it is time for a revised write up to clarify what HexTCG is about; then put it in huge banner on homepage. Even as a kickstarter, there are some concepts that I'm still confused with. For example, the F2P portion of HexTCG is the MMO, also called PvE; does that mean there is no PvP at all in the MMO? If raid is the only interaction among players in the MMO, then it is more like Diablo-ish small parties which I wouldn't call it a MMO. So far, majority of the MMO info released has been focused on the Arena and The Kraken Dungeon; it is good stuff but now I'm hunger for more info on the social aspect that will pull the MMO experience together.

I believe I read somewhere that Cory also thinks it is time to clear up the definition on PvE and PvP. I'm looking forward to that.

On that note... Maybe Cory has a blog post lined up for today? Would be nice.

nicosharp
11-19-2014, 02:19 PM
It wasn't sarcasm.

Svenn
11-19-2014, 02:20 PM
That sarcasm
Im acting by first impresion.
i mean this is an open beta stage and usually you wont see the pay focused part first than the free to play part for obvius reazons, i was also just trying the game, i read and asked somethings in the chat and that stuff
but hey, what can i say, i been playing for 2 days im not the master research too i have a lot of things to check about the game.
was just testing the game a bit, i liked the game thats why i maked this post.
They also dont warn you in the game client.

Sorry in case that wasnt sarcasm....
He wasn't being sarcastic. :) Most of us here recognize that the f2p stuff isn't explained anywhere and we've been clamoring for HexEnt to make it obvious for reasons exactly like this. We also recognize that going to "public beta" without the f2p portion of the game in isn't the best idea.

cavench
11-19-2014, 02:35 PM
@BloodStalker Since you are new, let me direct you to some PvE information so you can get an idea what to expect from the F2P portion of HexTCG. Please note that the Older PvE info may be out of date. For example, if you see us talking about 'Arena', we are referring to the Frost Ring Arena instead of the Orc Arena (which may or may not exist anymore).

Older PvE Info:
http://hextcg.com/enter-the-arena/
https://hextcg.com/the-krakens-lair/
http://hextcg.com/adventure-awaits/

Newer PvE Info:
https://hextcg.com/hex-update-stay-frosty/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOplnMEvoac
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwh4GPCesbM

BloodyStalker
11-19-2014, 02:45 PM
Also ty guys for explaining me this stuff and that.


@BloodStalker Since you are new, let me direct you to some PvE information so you can get an idea what to expect from the F2P portion of HexTCG. Please note that the Older PvE info may be out of date. For example, if you see us talking about 'Arena', we are referring to the Frost Ring Arena instead of the Orc Arena (which may or may not exist anymore).

Older PvE Info:
http://hextcg.com/enter-the-arena/
https://hextcg.com/the-krakens-lair/
http://hextcg.com/adventure-awaits/

Newer PvE Info:
https://hextcg.com/hex-update-stay-frosty/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOplnMEvoac
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwh4GPCesbM

Ty, ill take a look :D

Svenn
11-19-2014, 03:05 PM
I can't blame BloodStalker for being uninformed. It is public beta now and it is time for a revised write up to clarify what HexTCG is about; then put it in huge banner on homepage. Even as a kickstarter, there are some concepts that I'm still confused with. For example, the F2P portion of HexTCG is the MMO, also called PvE; does that mean there is no PvP at all in the MMO? If raid is the only interaction among players in the MMO, then it is more like Diablo-ish small parties which I wouldn't call it a MMO. So far, majority of the MMO info released has been focused on the Arena and The Kraken Dungeon; it is good stuff but now I'm hunger for more info on the social aspect that will pull the MMO experience together.

I believe I read somewhere that Cory also thinks it is time to clear up the definition on PvE and PvP. I'm looking forward to that.
It's not really an MMO. They keep calling it that because it's supposed to have guilds and it's all online... but you are right, it's more like a Diablo or something along those lines. The PvE will have solo play or 3 player co-op for raids, but that's it, no PvP in the PvE section (at least not for initial release).

cavench
11-19-2014, 03:26 PM
It's not really an MMO. They keep calling it that because it's supposed to have guilds and it's all online... but you are right, it's more like a Diablo or something along those lines. The PvE will have solo play or 3 player co-op for raids, but that's it, no PvP in the PvE section (at least not for initial release).

I'm fine with what you said if that's how it ended up. It falls short than what I expected during the kickstarter campaign but I will still be happy with the game. However, I can imagine there will be some uproar from other PvE oriented kickstarters if HexMMO turned out to be different from their interpretation. The uproar will be much worse if the open beta crowd also expect HexMMO to be more than what HexEnt can deliver.

Hex is the first of MMOTCG, HexEnt need to distinguish it from the MMORPG with a very clear write up. Set their own definitions, "what does PvE or PvP mean in Hex"? Or use different terminologies that won't confuse people. Now is a good time for that write up, at very least it has to be available before Open Beta.

Svenn
11-19-2014, 03:31 PM
I'm fine with what you said if that's how it ended up with. It falls short than what I expected during the kickstarter campaign but I will still be happy with the game. However, I can imagine there will be some uproar from other PvE oriented kickstarters if HexMMO turned out to be different from their interpretation. The uproar will be much worse if the open beta crowd also expect HexTCG to be more than what Hex can deliver.

Hex is the first of MMOTCG, HexEnt need to distinguish it from the MMORPG with a very clear write up. Set their own definitions, what does PvE or PvP mean in Hex? Or use different terminologies that won't confuse people. Now is a good time for that write up, at very least it has to be available before Open Beta.
Nothing has changed since Kickstarter. This is how they described all of it back then. They made it clear that there was no 3D world or anything like that. They explained how dungeons/raids worked, and that locations were 2d panoramas. We knew the difference between PvE and PVP back then too, same as any game... PvP is playing against players (in this case, your standard TCG side) and PvE is playing against the AI side.

Honestly, they should have marketed it is a dRPGTCG. That's closer to what it really is.

Tazelbain
11-19-2014, 03:32 PM
I will wait until I see the shin'hare dance animations before I make a determination.

plaguedealer
11-19-2014, 03:34 PM
How pve will work will largely be a surprise since they want to keep mum on what is in the chests.

cavench
11-19-2014, 03:40 PM
Honestly, they should have marketed it is a dRPGTCG. That's closer to what it really is.

This.

While you said is true that nothing has changed since Kickstarter. But when they advertised it as MMO, I assumed what was described in kickstarter is just a portion of the MMO and not its entirety. At the time I thought to myself "The game is still pre-alpha, more will be revealed later."

Mejis
11-19-2014, 04:53 PM
Crypto, can we PLEASE get some giant text in client that explains that the PvE portion is the f2p portion and it's not in yet? Complaints about the free to play aspect of the game are becoming more and more common (I swear someone complains every 15 minutes in game about it, not knowing that the f2p is coming later). We've had several posts similar to this one, and I've seen posts where people admit they have no idea what the f2p plans are for this game. This is driving people away as they see what is currently here and think it's expected that they grind hundreds of hours for a card. In fact, I'm pretty sure putting gold in the proving grounds has made this worse as now people think that's the way it's supposed to work.

Yeah, this^

There just needs to be something super obvious when you start the client.

Also, it still irks me a bit that there's an expectation that things should be free. I want to give Crypto money because they've made (and are continuing to make) something fantastic. They've put time and effort in, so why should I be able to have something at no cost?

I have friends who have put hundreds of hours into Hearthstone and never dropped a penny, and I know they never will, and to me, that's not right. Even just buying one booster or arena run with real cash is giving something back to the company for your enjoyment.
Unfortunately it also means that these same friends won't even touch HEX until there's a complete F2P package in place :-|

sukebe
11-19-2014, 05:40 PM
Yeah, this^

There just needs to be something super obvious when you start the client.

Also, it still irks me a bit that there's an expectation that things should be free. I want to give Crypto money because they've made (and are continuing to make) something fantastic. They've put time and effort in, so why should I be able to have something at no cost?

I have friends who have put hundreds of hours into Hearthstone and never dropped a penny, and I know they never will, and to me, that's not right. Even just buying one booster or arena run with real cash is giving something back to the company for your enjoyment.
Unfortunately it also means that these same friends won't even touch HEX until there's a complete F2P package in place :-|

I agree with this 100%. I have nothing against the OP for wanting to try a game for free, I even encourage it. I agree with you however that those who never spend money on the things they enjoy are doing a disservice to the game and the industry. Even if a person only ever spends $10 on the game one time, at least they have contributed and show their appreciation.

Gwaer
11-19-2014, 05:52 PM
This is not the fault of the people with that perception though, Hex chose to market the game as f2p, which I think was a mistake, especially since the pvp side was never meant to be f2p at all. So people come with the wrong expectations. That's entirely a messaging decision on the Hex developers shoulders though, and shouldn't cause any ill will towards the people that come here expecting a hearthstone esque f2p pvp experience.

Mejis
11-19-2014, 06:33 PM
This is not the fault of the people with that perception though, Hex chose to market the game as f2p, which I think was a mistake, especially since the pvp side was never meant to be f2p at all. So people come with the wrong expectations. That's entirely a messaging decision on the Hex developers shoulders though, and shouldn't cause any ill will towards the people that come here expecting a hearthstone esque f2p pvp experience.

Didn't mean any ill-will, sorry. It's just my opinion on the F2P market and what it has become in the last few years.

Anyway, agree that yes there should be transparency for new players as to what state the game is currently in and what it offers. It would clear up a lot of confusion on the forums and in-game chat.

AstaSyneri
11-20-2014, 06:17 AM
Cory has all but announced that they'll drop the "F2P" from their nomenclature soon. CZE has proven time and again that they are very aware of what we are discussing in this forum, and we can be pretty certain that the marketing plan for Open Beta is ready and includes most of what we are asking for.

It all keys off having the game ready to go to Open Beta: Proven 128+ tournaments, the ability to deliver an expansion that keeps the level of excitement and high-level play alive, and last but not least the first element of the very ambitious PvE plans.

I'd say these are exciting times: Set 2 is almost biting us, The Frost Ring will most likely come out in December and once that happens and most bugs are fixed, we are ready for Open Beta, wouldn't you agree?

Vorpal
11-20-2014, 08:34 AM
I think retroactively dropping F2P from your advertised f2p game after the KS successfully funds might be frowned upon.

Much like hexcon, leaving it out from the beginning might have simplified their lives.

AstaSyneri
11-20-2014, 08:42 AM
IIRC Cory talked about this in his Q&A thread. The game doesn't change, you still get the PvE. It's more a matter of expectations that put Hex close to those F2P games that everybody knows - apparently a comparison that doesn't work for Hex.

I don't mind dropping HexCon - that's a really difficult thing to do. Instead we are already drawing up plans for next year's GenCon as an alternative. At least there I am absolutely sure that everybody will find something to play ;-).

MatWith1T
11-20-2014, 10:21 AM
I think retroactively dropping F2P from your advertised f2p game after the KS successfully funds might be frowned upon.

They aren't dropping the F2P aspects of the game, they are just (theoretically) dropping the marketing decision to advertise it as such. The product remains unchanged. I think KickStarter backers are pretty cognizant of what the game is and isn't, its the non-KS players that are entering the game with misaligned expectations.

I personally think Hex should stop marketing it as f2p, but their marketing choices are their own. I do, however, think we as players, on the forums, on Twitch, or wherever, should stop calling it a f2p game. When someone asks if it's f2p, we shouldn't say "Yes, but...", we should say "No, but you will be able to try part of the game for free." That makes the free content a bonus or incentive, rather than make the pay part a barrier.

Gwaer
11-20-2014, 10:43 AM
I think it's just a timing issue. Once there is a solid pve experience with its own progression the f2p labor won't be a problem. The issue is just the part we have now the pvp sets are not f2p and have no f2p progression, so now even when we tell a new player PVE is coming and you will have the chance to play free. They assume that means it straight up earns them which causes other misunderstandings about card value and what not. PVP just needs to be clearly labeled as not free to play.

magic_gazz
11-20-2014, 12:34 PM
They aren't dropping the F2P aspects of the game, they are just (theoretically) dropping the marketing decision to advertise it as such. The product remains unchanged. I think KickStarter backers are pretty cognizant of what the game is and isn't, its the non-KS players that are entering the game with misaligned expectations.

I personally think Hex should stop marketing it as f2p, but their marketing choices are their own. I do, however, think we as players, on the forums, on Twitch, or wherever, should stop calling it a f2p game. When someone asks if it's f2p, we shouldn't say "Yes, but...", we should say "No, but you will be able to try part of the game for free." That makes the free content a bonus or incentive, rather than make the pay part a barrier.

^This.

Too often I am seeing people asking about F2P and people are too scared to tell them no, so they say "yes but that part is not in yet". I think this does give people false expectations as they think they will be able to access everything for free.

What a lot of people do not seem to realise is that only a fraction of people playing PvE will get to play PvP for free. I think that need to be more clear, but I think people are worried about putting people off the game.

BossHoss
11-20-2014, 12:35 PM
I think it's just a timing issue. Once there is a solid pve experience with its own progression the f2p labor won't be a problem. The issue is just the part we have now the pvp sets are not f2p and have no f2p progression, so now even when we tell a new player PvE is coming and you will have the chance to play free. They assume that means it straight up earns them which causes other misunderstandings about card value and what not. PVP just needs to be clearly labeled as not free to play.

Fixed...

Gwaer
11-20-2014, 12:37 PM
Thanks ;)

Svenn
11-20-2014, 01:04 PM
^This.

Too often I am seeing people asking about F2P and people are too scared to tell them no, so they say "yes but that part is not in yet". I think this does give people false expectations as they think they will be able to access everything for free.

What a lot of people do not seem to realise is that only a fraction of people playing PvE will get to play PvP for free. I think that need to be more clear, but I think people are worried about putting people off the game.

A fraction will be able to sustain constant free PvP and/or do something like earn a full playset... but I would expect the average f2p player to afford the occasional tournament and definitely able to buy some of the PvP cards.

Vorpal
11-20-2014, 01:08 PM
Hearthstone is f2p but I've given them about $30 and do not regret it.

I have given Hex way way more, needless to say.

MatWith1T
11-20-2014, 01:17 PM
A fraction will be able to sustain constant free PvP and/or do something like earn a full playset... but I would expect the average f2p player to afford the occasional tournament and definitely able to buy some of the PvP cards.

We can't say anything for sure because it's not in the game yet, but I really doubt selling PvE stuff is really going to be a viable way for anyone to play PvP for free. I just don't see it unless Hex is gonna add in ultra-rare, super-overpowered PvE cards that people won't want to farm for because of insane drop rates.

I don't have a problem with 1 part of the game being 99% pay-to-play, but I really think the whole 'You can play PvE to fund PvP' pitch that we tell people is dangling a carrot that maybe 1% of f2p players will ever accomplish.

Svenn
11-20-2014, 01:34 PM
We can't say anything for sure because it's not in the game yet, but I really doubt selling PvE stuff is really going to be a viable way for anyone to play PvP for free. I just don't see it unless Hex is gonna add in ultra-rare, super-overpowered PvE cards that people won't want to farm for because of insane drop rates.
That is exactly what Cory has said they are doing, actually. They want super rare chase loot. That's the whole point.


I don't have a problem with 1 part of the game being 99% pay-to-play, but I really think the whole 'You can play PvE to fund PvP' pitch that we tell people is dangling a carrot that maybe 1% of f2p players will ever accomplish.
If that's the case, then the game has failed. Every player should not be able to play for free, but your average f2p player should be able to do the occasional tournament with regular play. If they can't earn enough in a month to afford a single tournament, then the system has seriously failed.

nicosharp
11-20-2014, 01:39 PM
Judging by the fact that after all my "non-PvE" grinding and only using gold on chests has only resulted in 8 primal chests. Also, knowing that all chests will have unique loot tables exclusively for the items inside. Also, stash items that are hard to obtain already selling for 400plat on up. I have a lot of faith in the lucky few that acquire legendary and higher equipment and cards can turn a quick profit on the AH.

The caveat is, someone has got to spend the plat. Those valuing their time over money, will be quick to jump at things that significantly enhance their PvE experience.

MatWith1T
11-20-2014, 01:40 PM
That is exactly what Cory has said they are doing, actually. They want super rare chase loot. That's the whole point.


If that's the case, then the game has failed. Every player should not be able to play for free, but your average f2p player should be able to do the occasional tournament with regular play. If they can't earn enough in a month to afford a single tournament, then the system has seriously failed.

That's the paradox I can't get past - if they are so rare that people are willing to spend real money (plat) to obtain them, then they will be so rare that very few people will ever have them to sell in the first place. If the average f2p can obtain things in PvE to fund PvP, then those things aren't going to be worth much if the average player can obtain them. Again, all with the disclaimer that I don't actually know what the PvE loot tables will look like, I just don't see how PvE will provide items both rare enough that people will pay for them, yet common enough that the average player can expect to get one to sell.

Svenn
11-20-2014, 01:48 PM
That's the paradox I can't get past - if they are so rare that people are willing to spend real money (plat) to obtain them, then they will be so rare that very few people will ever have them to sell in the first place. If the average f2p can obtain things in PvE to fund PvP, then those things aren't going to be worth much if the average player can obtain them. Again, all with the disclaimer that I don't actually know what the PvE loot tables will look like, I just don't see how PvE will provide items both rare enough that people will pay for them, yet common enough that the average player can expect to get one to sell.

Simple, LOTS of items. If a loot table has 100 items and you get say 2 per run... That means a LOT of grinding to get the items you want or a whole collection. However, you might get stuff that someone else wants but hasn't gotten yet. And people might be willing to pay for something that isn't super ultra rare overall, but something that they haven't been able to get yet.

Even with something of common rarity. If there are 60 common item drops and you're looking for a specific one you could grind it out for hours and hours, or simply find someone else who already got it and buy it. I think you'll see this happen quite frequently. If people now are willing to buy commons (and they are, still, I sell commons on the AH every single day) then I think PvE common and uncommon items will not be too difficult to move.

magic_gazz
11-20-2014, 02:31 PM
Simple, LOTS of items. If a loot table has 100 items and you get say 2 per run... That means a LOT of grinding to get the items you want or a whole collection. However, you might get stuff that someone else wants but hasn't gotten yet. And people might be willing to pay for something that isn't super ultra rare overall, but something that they haven't been able to get yet.

Even with something of common rarity. If there are 60 common item drops and you're looking for a specific one you could grind it out for hours and hours, or simply find someone else who already got it and buy it. I think you'll see this happen quite frequently. If people now are willing to buy commons (and they are, still, I sell commons on the AH every single day) then I think PvE common and uncommon items will not be too difficult to move.

I still don't think that works though as there will be lots of people grinding PvE, therefore leading to lots of commons available. I cant see them being worth more than a handful of gold.

The number of people willing to spend on PvE items will be very small in comparison to the number of people playing it for free.

This means very few of these free people will ever make enough to play PvP in any serious manner. I think they will be able to buy commons, uncommons and maybe some bulk rares and that will be standard. Getting enough for a draft is not something I see happening for the average player.

hex_colin
11-20-2014, 02:39 PM
I still don't think that works though as there will be lots of people grinding PvE, therefore leading to lots of commons available. I cant see them being worth more than a handful of gold.

The number of people willing to spend on PvE items will be very small in comparison to the number of people playing it for free.

This means very few of these free people will ever make enough to play PvP in any serious manner. I think they will be able to buy commons, uncommons and maybe some bulk rares and that will be standard. Getting enough for a draft is not something I see happening for the average player.

This is beginning to remind me of the "packs will be selling for less than 100 Platinum" discussions. ;) I think we should wait and see.

Also, there are hundreds of levers they can pull to impact all of this.

Finally, what's likely going to happen is that the population of paying PVP customers will support some population of F2P PVE customers. When they go out of balance (in either direction) there will be a correction, e.g. too many F2P players will depress prices, reducing the incentive, and causing some F2P folks to give up on playing, which will decrease supply and increase prices continuing the cycle. It's not going to closely follow the model of any game you've seen before.

negativeZer0
11-20-2014, 02:49 PM
Another point that is painfully obvious is that a lot of new players do not understand that PvE will have its own entire sets of cards.

So while PvP is on set 2 now
PvE however will be on set ONE when it does release and will have its own cycle of new sets that come out independent of PvP sets

plaguedealer
11-20-2014, 03:30 PM
Just to throw my hat in the conversation, if there are too many f2p players that depress prices to an extent they stop playing, it is a bad thing. Hopefully there is more mechanics in place to curb gold inflation then having f2p quit.

ossuary
11-20-2014, 03:38 PM
I think it's more accurate to say F2P players would stop trying to get PVP content for free, than to say they would quit playing entirely in that scenario (though of course there will always be a certain amount of temporary or permanent churn). The PVE side of the game is arguably going to be MORE entertaining for a fairly significant portion of the population than the competitive side of the game (especially casual players who are risk-averse). For those people, there's really no need to ever spend money on the game, unless they want to try out the other side, get a speed boost / time shortcut to help them get to other PVE content faster by buying off the AH, or just to support the company.

magic_gazz
11-20-2014, 04:33 PM
This is beginning to remind me of the "packs will be selling for less than 100 Platinum" discussions. ;) I think we should wait and see.

Also, there are hundreds of levers they can pull to impact all of this.

Finally, what's likely going to happen is that the population of paying PVP customers will support some population of F2P PVE customers. When they go out of balance (in either direction) there will be a correction, e.g. too many F2P players will depress prices, reducing the incentive, and causing some F2P folks to give up on playing, which will decrease supply and increase prices continuing the cycle. It's not going to closely follow the model of any game you've seen before.

How can they tinker with how much money people are willing to give?

If the paying players decide they want to only spend $5 per month on buying PvE items, how will changing rarities or drop rates change that?

Seeing as the paying players set the base for how much free players can earn I am not sure Hex can control it as much as you say. Especially as some (most?) of us will be playing PvE as well and therefore will not need to buy as much.

Kilo24
11-20-2014, 04:44 PM
How can they tinker with how much money people are willing to give?
There are loads of ways to get game mechanics to persuade players into spending more. It's the foundation of the whole F2P business model. If a item makes a certain dungeon much easier, then they can get players to pay more for it on the auction house by making it drop less often, indirectly increasing their revenue as somebody will have to pay for the plat for it.

If people have a budget in mind beforehand, it's certainly harder to manage. But I don't think that most people do that, at least not a budget ironclad enough that game mechanics can't tempt a bit more money out of them. Chances are, most people will spend money based on what that money can get them, not upon a budget limit.

Fateanomaly
11-20-2014, 08:20 PM
I think pvp players should not expect pve to fund their pvp entirely. It will offset the cost but if they come in expecting to play competitive pvp for free, they will be disappointed. Doable but this is just not the kind of game.
On the same vein, free playing pve players should not expect their pve to be able to buy all the pvp cards. Free playing pve-ing should only ensure that they can play the pve part without needing to buy pvp cards. (Although i am pretty sure they should be able to buy commons and uncommons without problems)

Xim
11-26-2014, 07:08 PM
Firstly, pretty darn good English OP, very few mistakes.
Second, As others have staded PVE is the f2p. But, allow me to point out. Even if this game has no physical media, this is still a TCG. Like all tcgs you are expected to own any cards you wish to play. Going through the game not wanting to spend anything will be tough and silly.