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View Full Version : A question on streaming in general and Hex ^^



Kangsta
01-04-2015, 03:36 AM
I have been enjoying the Hex streamers and I follow a few as well on twitch.
I was wondering if there were any rules or etiquette when it comes to streaming?

I know a lot has already been mentioned in these forums specifically stream sniping
and cheating but I have a broader question.

For example my guess is that not all people want to be on a stream when they are playing
a game or a tournament.

So is it proper for a streamer to share with the other player that the game is being broadcasted
on the internet live? Does a streamer need permission of the other player? Or under Hex rules
when you are playing the game you give up those kind of "rights", if they even exist, so when you
play a game of hex and someone wants to broadcast that you have already signed yes when you
decided to play the game ^^

I think it is fun sometimes to be unintentionally "featured" on a stream, but sometimes you don't
want to have your deck or game being shown to everyone.

So yeah to make it easier to understand.

1. When you play hex are all your games ok to broadcast through streaming?
2. If not do you need the permission of the other player to show the game on stream,
your user name and deck is always visible but it is information some may want to keep
at least a little more private ^^

This is not an issue for the person streaming because that is their choice, but for the live opponents of streamers they don't have a choice. But should they? ^^

I understand that the difficult or awkward situation is when a streamer is streaming and the opponent says
i would prefer not to have this game broadcast, then the streamer has a choice to make ^^. But once again
this is all a mute point if in the user agreement for Hex a player has already given consent to allow
live streaming of any game ^^

Thanks if anyone has the answer ^^

crosswell
01-04-2015, 03:45 AM
You realize in a live tournament someone can just wander by your table and see what you're playing, right? These tournaments are played for tens of thousands of dollars and no one has kicked up a fuss over it. I think when you're playing for 12 packs you can handle people knowing what is in your deck sometimes.

Kangsta
01-04-2015, 03:51 AM
Hello Crosswell ^^ And thanks for your point ^^

I think the difference is that those people are outside the game, outside the tournament and limited to people in that area. When you attend an open tournament like that it is understood, when the game is digital, and when people can make comments, potentially be in the same tournament as you are, especially in a bigger tournament ^^, and also if all of that happened without even you knowing, then it doesn't feel the same ^^.

Like I said if in the Hex user agreement it is already been dealt with I am totally satisfied with that ^^ But if not, I am wondering if it is etiquette to say at the least, hey man you are being featured on my stream hope that is OK ^^.

crosswell
01-04-2015, 03:55 AM
No they are not outside of your tournament. If you make it to round 5 undefeated and when sitting down you don't know what your opponent is on you are probably not playing seriously enough to win a big tournament. Scouting is real. Anyway, no one is going to ask their opponent if they are ok with being streamed because if they say no, what are they going to do? Interrupt their stream? Not bloody likely.

Serax
01-04-2015, 04:23 AM
I have played numerous times against streamers, not sure if they were actively streaming while I was playing but for me it really doesn't matter. I can see two major parties that this would affect. The Top Tier players and the newer players for their own reasons. The top tier because they want to keep their decks visibility to a low number of players especially if they are testing a deck for an upcoming tournament like the Diamond Cup. The newer players, well for being new and not wanting to make mistakes in front of a live audience. The majority in the middle where I am at at, probably don't care either way.

I know Hex Entertainment likes all of the streamers out their, getting the game out there for the masses to see. It is basically free publicity. On that same note I believe they should put some rules in place for streamers. The cans and cants of streaming, because while publicity is generally good it can also be bad.

As for the non-streamers being featured on a streamers stream, I think it should be a part of the ToS or some user agreement that your games may be streamed from your opponents point of view. Like what was said above, it is not like it would be easy for a streamer to shut his stream down due to an inconvenience on their opponent.

On a side note, I know there has been talk in the past of a possible spectator mode in the future and if that is the case then all above becomes a moot point.

Kangsta
01-04-2015, 04:28 AM
Once again thanks for the quick response Crosswell ^^

You are correct in assuming i have no tournament experience. I have never been at a tournament of any tcg of any kind ^^. But my question goes beyond just tournaments and winning. I am wondering if it simply is a right that a player should have or not. If the user agreement has already dealt with it, no problem ^^ I am all for having all the games potentially open to the public, but if it is not, I would prefer a player have a choice rather than not ^^.

Also in the case that you mentioned there are ways around it, maybe blocking out the most obvious name of the player. I am sure streamers can be creative in how they spend use that time, they don't need to stop streaming ^^. But once again I am talking about these hypothetical situations and simply the more basic question.

Should both players be aware the game is being streamed.
Do both players need to agree to have a game streamed.

I would prefer yes to both of these questions if the game allows the freedom for each player to do so, but if not I will still enjoy this awesome game ^^

ossuary
01-04-2015, 04:29 AM
I don't think a player has the right to ask their opponent to not stream the game. CZE allows their game to be streamed, and the opposing player's likeness is not being shown on screen, only the cards that they play, inside the Hex client, which CZE allows. You can't expect a streamer to shut down their stream, for possibly hundreds of viewers, just because you're not comfortable with your actions in the game client (that you don't own or control) being shown on someone else's screen.

Now, I do think it's common courtesy for a streamer to let their opponent know they are streaming (assuming they're not already a well-known member of the community who everyone knows streams anyway), but that's up to the individual and not an actual rule or requirement.

Kangsta
01-04-2015, 04:31 AM
Thank you Serax for your input ^^ I think you put some of my thoughts into words better than I did ^^ Thank you ^^

I think putting in a spectator mode is awesome but it doesn't make it a moot point unless Hex makes every game spectatable... if that is even a word ^^

In most games you would have a simple icon to toggle spectator mode in most games, I believe ^^

Stirred.Leaf
01-04-2015, 04:33 AM
I don't know about the EULA but considering that popular streamers are invited to stream on the official HexTCG channel, the official answer would probably be 1. 'yes' and 2. 'no'.

Your concerns are legitimate, and 'it happens in physical tournaments too, so it's fine' isn't really a valid counterargument. But there needs to be a certain balance struck between making a competitive and a fun environment.

Let's make a comparison with a physical TCG to explain that.
For an ideal competitive environment in a physical tournament you'd have all the matches played in seperate cubicles so no one could sneak a peek at players next to them, and no one would be allowed to talk between rounds so there could be no scouting.
No one would want to play in such a tournament and it would be a nightmare to manage.

Similarily, weighing down streamers with a rule like this would be detrimental to the game's community. It's anti-fun, and the impact made by the streamers not asking is minimal. In addition, it's really hard to enforce without micromanaging every twitch channel.

Nero_Jinous
01-04-2015, 05:15 AM
This was already discussed in a previous thread, but my answer is the same. If someone does not want me to stream my match with them I will gladly shut down my stream for that match out of respect for my opponent.

Kangsta
01-04-2015, 05:20 AM
This was already discussed in a previous thread, but my answer is the same. If someone does not want me to stream my match with them I will gladly shut down my stream for that match out of respect for my opponent.

Nero Thanks for the response to this thread as well as people who may prefer their choice on being part of a stream or not ^^.
I don't think all streamers agree with you though ^^

And all I am trying to figure out is if there is an official stance that Hex itself is trying to encourage.

As I shared before if there isn't I am fine with that as well.

Also @Stirred.Leaf thanks for your response as well. I am totally fine with.

YES: Should both players be aware the game is being streamed.
NO:Do both players need to agree to have a game streamed.

If that is the official stance ^^

wolzarg
01-04-2015, 09:52 AM
None can make you not stream them but i would consider it deeply offensive to actually refuse someones request not to be streamed. Granted i don't actually mind but in the event that i did and they refused i would say okay lemme just load that up so i can snipe while we play. Because in the end its a question of respect and if someone is going to disrespect my wish i will disrespect them right back in a equally offensive way.

poizonous
01-04-2015, 11:13 AM
i guess i just don't understand the mentality of someone who doesn't want to be streamed. it leads me to believe that the player is new or just bad in general. As a streamer with a lower follower count i refuse to shut my stream down since i can't stream Ethernet i please and if i have viewers I'm not going to lose out on my stream time due to someone not wanting to be streamed. if they make this a rule it could have catastrophic consequences to the viability of streaming this game in general

wolzarg
01-04-2015, 11:31 AM
Well for starters some streamers have very toxic followers that will attack people.

ossuary
01-04-2015, 11:35 AM
So just to be clear, you believe that a player expecting someone to shut down their entire stream and put out their possibly hundreds of viewers because you are not comfortable with the streamer doing something that both the client and company specifically allow is NOT toxic behavior?

Interesting.

wolzarg
01-04-2015, 11:44 AM
Its all a matter of viewpoint and i do not feel it is toxic no. As i already said tho i have no reason to ever request this from any of the streamers for hex as they are all awesome people as far as i can tell. To me its a matter of decency to protect someones privacy even in a public sphere where you don't have to.

This isn't now and hopefully will never be needed in relation to hex. but until streamers who have toxic followers stand accountable for what their followers do especially after asking them to take negative action, i feel its unfair they are allowed to shine a light on someone that doesn't want that to happen.

To be clear they don't have to shut off their stream, that is not the same thing as not displaying the match.

Showsni
01-04-2015, 11:54 AM
Other than the obvious rules (no selling streams for commercial gain, no breaking local laws, etc.), the only rules in the terms of service regarding streaming seem to be that streams cannot include third party card games/games that compete with Hex. (So, it's against the ToS to stream Hex and then stream Hearthstone while you're waiting between rounds).

wolzarg
01-04-2015, 11:55 AM
I would ask people to stream herthstone between hex matches market crossover and supperior product and all that shizz.

poizonous
01-04-2015, 12:08 PM
wait is it really not allowed to stream hearthstone whole waiting between rounds??? i know i did that once but i did change the title of what i was streaming to hearthstone so does that make it okay? i wouldn't do it again if it isn't but that seems silly to me

wolzarg
01-04-2015, 12:37 PM
That's a fairly standard clause as far as i can tell.

Gwaer
01-04-2015, 12:46 PM
I am actually deeply offended when my opponent isn't streaming my games. I demand for anyone that is playing me to start streaming.

wolzarg
01-04-2015, 01:24 PM
When i move out of the woods and get a landline i will gwaer thats a man promise.

Kangsta
01-04-2015, 10:33 PM
Yep I don't think anyone is asking to stop the stream completely ^^.
I think people are asking if privacy is an option or a choice or if the Hex user agreement has already dealt with that.

Streamers can be creative. They can turn off the video of the game and put something else up while still talking to the viewers. There are plenty of ways to keep things interesting. Also you can talk it through with the person and try to find out what is making the other person uncomfortable.

I guess another point I want to make is that a stream comes together because of everyone involved. I think it is great when everyone is on board. When streaming you have the 2 players (in the case of a live person match) and the viewers, so three parties. The person doing the stream and the people watching is by choice, but the opponent is not by choice. I don't like the idea of forcing someone to be on a stream in the case the freedom is there.

My 2 cents ^^ But like I said if anyone shows me that Hex has already dealt with this somewhere I will happily accept that ^^

Voormas
01-04-2015, 10:45 PM
I feel like the team have probably thought about these kinds of issues a ton because it impacts the games ability to become a real eSport, but implementing things like "spectator / commentator mode" or things that enhance / alter the streaming of Hex will probably take some time

Zophie
01-05-2015, 12:08 AM
There was a very lengthy topic back in July regarding stream sniping where the topic came up of etiquette and whether streamers should inform their opponents they are streaming or not, I had the following to say which still applies:


It's a moral respect kinda thing, and a reflection on our society in the digital age -- I know I would probably be cool and give you the respect to tell you I'm streaming, but there's really no way to enforce every single person with OBS/xsplit running to take the time to type this out in chat during random matches every single time they play. Do you think all the folks who stream LoL or DOTA or COD tell their opponents they are streaming every time they play? I know they are nothing like Hex but still something to think about.

I just don't think we can reasonably set the bar of expectations very high on this one, and we just have live with it being a possibility any time you venture into a digital interaction with someone new.

After that the rest of the thread devolved into a lot of off topic bickering and personal attacks, with others fighting valiantly to bring it back on topic for the next few hundred posts, but not much else came out of the subject. Ultimately though it was a hypothetical question since no one is actually complaining about their privacy on someone's stream, so the best we can do is give our opinions on what everyone thinks is polite, but don't expect much more than that.

So yeah... My best advice for etiquette in any situation is just don't be a dick.

KingGabriel
01-05-2015, 12:27 AM
So yeah... My best advice for etiquette in any situation is just don't be a dick.
It's good advice.

ossuary
01-05-2015, 05:46 AM
It is good advice. And asking a player to turn off their entire stream and put out their viewers because you don't want someone to see the order you play cards in on a server you don't own is being a dick. :)

Nero_Jinous
01-05-2015, 06:46 AM
It is good advice. And asking a player to turn off their entire stream and put out their viewers because you don't want someone to see the order you play cards in on a server you don't own is being a dick. :)

I'm going to bring up the same argument I made in the old thread. What if your opponent has severe stage fright to the point they can't handle the pressure of their actions being streamed? My streaming would negatively affect their play and I would not want to put my opponent in that position. Someone asking you to stop the stream is not always being a dick. Sorry, but me getting lots of views on a site is not more important than being a good person.

Gwaer
01-05-2015, 06:50 AM
Not telling them is definitely the kindest thing in that case. Everyone wins.

vickrpg
01-05-2015, 07:13 AM
I can chime in on this.

I don't like to be streamed. I definitely don't like to have it happen without me knowing, but I know it does. it isn't about being at a tournament and having the people around you see it, it's like if I wanted to play a casual card game and my opponent has a camera crew. an invisible camera crew that he doesn't even bother telling me about. I don't always want my tourney decks in constructed recorded, I don't always play seriously enough or with a pro deck and I sometimes make bad plays, sometimes on purpose, sometimes for fun, sometimes on accident. I don't want all of this recorded forever without my knowledge.

I just wish streamers would TELL ME that I'm on stream when the game starts. It's no fun to join a tournament and have my opponent go "Didn't I see you lose to XYZ streamer yesterday? Lol you were bad" and that be the first I've heard of it. or
Didn't you beat ZYX streamer yesterday? you must be good."

I'm generally polite and play for fun, but I constantly feel like streamers invade my privacy. Sometimes they stream in tourneys, sometimes they stream in proving grounds, sometimes they stream in community leagues. I have never been told, once, by a streamer that I'm on their stream. But you know what? I have come to think of this as an "it can't be helped" situation. I don't expect anyone to shut down their stream for me. But It would be nice to at least know I'm being recorded beforehand. If I were in a particularly bad mood, the worst I might do is leave the casual game, or be silent during the stream, most of the time, I just deal with the discomfort.

Gwaer
01-05-2015, 07:42 AM
I've recorded every game I've ever played, locally. I haven't streamed in ages. But I have every single match saved on my hard drive. I might one day stream a number of them. Maybe a highlight reel of them. You're not in private. The hex servers are like hanging out on the sidewalk in front of a business. I expect to eventually be able to spectate most games in client, odds are good that I'll record those too. I'm a big fan of lol replay, the program that automatically records and saves all my league of Legends games. I'm hoping for something similar for Hex one day.

ossuary
01-05-2015, 07:42 AM
People who don't want to be streamed when they're playing an online game haven't paid attention to the internet for the last 5 years. This is a thing that has developed, and is not going away. If an individual streamer is seriously willing to turn off their entire stream because they happen to run into a luddite, that is amazing and totally not to be expected. If you legitimately can't cope with the possibility that someone else will see you playing this game - don't play this game.

There is going to be a spectator mode, there is going to be commentary, there is going to be a highlight stream. Any time you join a tournament, your match could end up featured on the Hex main page or linked from the client for anyone to review and enjoy. This is the modern reality of online games we live in. We are all on the stage. That's just how it is. This is not exclusive to Hex.

wolzarg
01-05-2015, 08:11 AM
I have to putt it to you that anyone why can't entertain people for 15 minutes while not displaying the match isn't fit for streaming and should let others more proficient entertainers handle it. I still haven't seen anyone actually request the stream to be turned of just the viewing of the match it self.

But you are most definitely correct that it isn't a right to have privacy in an online game like this but that doesn't mean its not possible to respect someones wishes.

Gwaer
01-05-2015, 08:16 AM
Woah! Matches are 15 minutes now!? I'm going to draft so much! 1 draft an hour will rock.

vickrpg
01-05-2015, 08:27 AM
People who don't want to be streamed when they're playing an online game haven't paid attention to the internet for the last 5 years. This is a thing that has developed, and is not going away. If an individual streamer is seriously willing to turn off their entire stream because they happen to run into a luddite, that is amazing and totally not to be expected. If you legitimately can't cope with the possibility that someone else will see you playing this game - don't play this game.

There is going to be a spectator mode, there is going to be commentary, there is going to be a highlight stream. Any time you join a tournament, your match could end up featured on the Hex main page or linked from the client for anyone to review and enjoy. This is the modern reality of online games we live in. We are all on the stage. That's just how it is. This is not exclusive to Hex.

I think you're being unnecessarily harsh. I accept that it's "public space" but there's a difference between public and broadcast to dozens, hundreds, or maybe even thousands of other players. I don't like it. I don't mind being on stage, but I mind being on stage when I don't know my audience and size. I wouldn't ask someone to turn off their stream, but I'd like to know if I'm being actively recorded or broadcast. I don't think that this is too much to ask...

I also don't like paying taxes, but It's also a reality I have to accept. I hardly think disliking streaming makes me a Luddite.

Ratticus
01-05-2015, 10:20 AM
I could care less if I'm being streamed but it would be very poor form to not turn off a stream if your opponent requested it. It falls under "The right to swing your fist ends where my nose beings". The streamer is the acting agent so they are in the wrong in the conflict of rights (wanting to stream vs. not wanting to be streamed). 100 or 1000 watchers doesn't matter your are inflicting harm, however minor, on someone else for your own benefit. Your and your friends right to have fun does not include the right the make others uncomfortable.

Under practical purposes the internet is not exactly short of people who don't care or who are actively trying to make others unhappy so I would suggest if you don't want to be streamed opening twitch and checking out who is streaming. If you see someone actively streaming in your que drop out and wait for the next one or just quit out of the proving grounds match.

Zophie
01-05-2015, 10:31 AM
Most likely scenarios when a streamer advises opponent they are streaming:

A) Opponent is indifferent (cool story bro)
B) Opponent looks up stream and attempts to snipe the match
C) Opponent decides to troll the match due to having an audience suddenly
D) Opponent squeals like a fangirl because they already follow them (or will now)

D is probably the least likely outcome in this list, unless you get matched up with me of course, then it's guaranteed.

poizonous
01-05-2015, 11:28 AM
yeah sorry, I just refuse to get sniped by telling my opponent Im streaming. It is practically saying "Hey come check out my hand and know how to beat me". If the person Im playing knows Im streaming its cool, but im certainly not going to go out of my way to tell someone

Vorpal
01-05-2015, 03:11 PM
1. When you play hex are all your games ok to broadcast through streaming?
2. If not do you need the permission of the other player to show the game on stream,
your user name and deck is always visible but it is information some may want to keep
at least a little more private ^^

This is an mmo. If you are playing a public game on their public servers in an organized event using public matchmaking, then your games are already in the public sphere and as such can be streamed by anyone present.

If you want a private game, arrange one against a friend with the understanding there will be no streaming.

In tournaments, you are in a public space and therefore simply have no right to attempt to unilaterally impose your desires on everyone else and make them stop streaming, no more than you would be able to demand everyone stop photographing the Lincoln Memorial because you happened to be standing in front of it.

Svenn
01-05-2015, 03:18 PM
This is an mmo. If you are playing a public game on their public servers in an organized event using public matchmaking, then your games are already in the public sphere and as such can be streamed by anyone present.

If you want a private game, arrange one against a friend with the understanding there will be no streaming.

In tournaments, you are in a public space and therefore simply have no right to attempt to unilaterally impose your desires on everyone else and make them stop streaming, no more than you would be able to demand everyone stop photographing the Lincoln Memorial because you happened to be standing in front of it.

100% agree with this.

Vorpal
01-05-2015, 03:26 PM
Also, since they are streaming only what they see in the game client, asking them not to stream is simply demandi g they not tell anyone what happened in a game they played. The stream is simply a record of what happened in the game. In essence, telling other people they may not make records of their games is attempting to claim sole ownership over that game.

I don't care if my opponents are streaming, not streaming, playing with friends, getting coached by a popular streamer, or playing alone in a hot tub. Assume your opponent will make the best possible play and mind your temper in local chat and all will be well.

People who wish to try out secret decks do so against friends, teammates, or guildmates.Revealing these decks in a public setting even without streaming would be most unwise.

As for not wishing to make mistakes before a live audience - everyone makes mistakes. Even streamers. Prifessional athletes who play before hundreds of thousands of people make mistakes. We all do it, there is no shame in it, I wouldn't worry about it.

Kangsta
01-06-2015, 06:46 AM
Thanks guys for all the posts, input, opinions etc ^^

It seems like there is no official stance on what Hex deems and things are left more for common sense and etiquette. And because we are all human beings we will never fully come to an agreement on what is "common" common sense and what is "good" etiquette ^^.

My IGN is in the bottom, if you are a streamer and ever play me I would appreciate you tell me. I won't tell you to not stream, because I don't care much but just would like to know ^^. Will probably stop by your stream after the game is over as well ^^.

See you guys in draft and maybe constructed ^^ Enjoy Hex!

Prodygi
01-06-2015, 07:18 AM
Personally, I do not like to be on stream. I feel like I'm being judged by people who has no idea what is in my hand.

Once I got called dumb because i was holding a counterspell (which the audience didn't know) in hand and chose not to pump my living totem. Opponent was Ruby and i was worried he has burn.

Most streamer will probably ignore my request to choose not to be on stream rather than closing their steam and lose current and potential viewer though so i usually just bite the bullet and deal with it. =(

Cirouss
01-06-2015, 07:43 AM
My IGN is in the bottom, if you are a streamer and ever play me I would appreciate you tell me. I won't tell you to not stream, because I don't care much but just would like to know ^^. Will probably stop by your stream after the game is over as well ^^.

See you guys in draft and maybe constructed ^^ Enjoy Hex!


If you ever see me in a game you can expect me to be streaming in 99% of the times... Just in advance haha :D

Vorpal
01-06-2015, 07:57 AM
Personally, I do not like to be on stream. I feel like I'm being judged by people who has no idea what is in my hand.

But your opponent does this too.

Prodygi
01-06-2015, 08:50 AM
Let him. He is my opponent. The one I'm playing against. If he underestimates my hand, good for me.

The viewers however are merely bystanders and i do not appreciate their scrutiny when they have no idea what's in my hand or reasoning.

And with Hex, there are tons of time where there are more than 1 right play. And some viewers will just reverse engineer from the result(when the play doesn't pay off) and call you noob/dumb/lucky/etc.

Svenn
01-06-2015, 09:09 AM
Let him. He is my opponent. The one I'm playing against. If he underestimates my hand, good for me.

The viewers however are merely bystanders and i do not appreciate their scrutiny when they have no idea what's in my hand or reasoning.

And with Hex, there are tons of time where there are more than 1 right play. And some viewers will just reverse engineer from the result(when the play doesn't pay off) and call you noob/dumb/lucky/etc.
What does it matter? People will do that in real life all the time. What if that person isn't streaming but has a friend over who is watching the game?

The bystanders mean nothing. There's no reason to even give them a thought. If they want to judge, so what? That's their own problem.

Prodygi
01-06-2015, 09:19 AM
I don't enjoy being scrutinize by an audience when I'm in casual-pants mode irl too. And that's why i chose to play an online game. Also, i can just walk away or suggest another area of play to my opponent irl.

There was one instance where i defeated a streamer in PG and some of his viewers started to white knight mode saying stuff like i'm just lucky and that my deck sucks and that if they were playing me they would have done this and included that and i would be dead. (Though tbh, more experienced gamer has defended me in the chat as well) I just do not enjoy the parade.

Someone falsely accusing you and everyone judging you base on that accusation may mean nothing to you, but i'm human.

Vorpal
01-06-2015, 09:32 AM
Let him. He is my opponent. The one I'm playing against. If he underestimates my hand, good for me.

The viewers however are merely bystanders and i do not appreciate their scrutiny when they have no idea what's in my hand or reasoning.

And with Hex, there are tons of time where there are more than 1 right play. And some viewers will just reverse engineer from the result(when the play doesn't pay off) and call you noob/dumb/lucky/etc.

So what?

No different than any other competitive event with an audience.

Not too mention, you can't even see the audience or their reactions.

I can't fathom people who are so paranoid about the possibility that someone they can't see or hear, somewhere, thinks they made a mistake while playing.

Have you never played a tournament or something for a physical tcg live in front of an audience? Did you demand everyone else in the store leave?

Prodygi
01-06-2015, 09:39 AM
So now i'm not entitled to my opinion and preferences?

I don't understand people only wanting to eat vegetable but i certainly never force meat onto them.

I never said i was right, nor did i say i was wrong. I just said i do not like being on stream and that's my opinion.

And in my case, i've actually seen people comment so it's not really paranoia.

vickrpg
01-06-2015, 09:45 AM
Prodygi, I understand and agree completely, but ours is the minority voice. All that you described has happened to me, along with being berrated in PMs about a game I didn't know was being streamed at all. It was a PG game no less, not even a tourney! it's quite a nasty surprise when people you don't know criticize you for games you didn't know were broadcast.

Streamers won't tell us if we're being streamed for fear of cheating, or just because they cannot fathom why anyone would have an opinion of streaming that differs from their own. That's just something we need to accept.

It is just as hard for me to understand that others don't see a difference between "public" and "broadcast", and that being okay with one doesn't mean being okay with the other. But just like death and paying taxes, It's just the way things are, and are extremely unlikely to change. It may bother me, but it won't "ruin" my fun.

If anything, can streamers at least tell their viewers not to comment directly to their opponents? If I never find out I'm on stream, my anxiety over it will never come into play. And most of my negative experiences have nothing to do with the streamers themselves, but with the unsolicited comments from the peanut gallery.

wolzarg
01-06-2015, 11:00 AM
Prodygi, I understand and agree completely, but ours is the minority voice. All that you described has happened to me, along with being berrated in PMs about a game I didn't know was being streamed at all. It was a PG game no less, not even a tourney! it's quite a nasty surprise when people you don't know criticize you for games you didn't know were broadcast.
So much this, i was harrased for weeks on magic online after beating a guy that was supposedly better than me. His fans would throw all manner of insults the mildest of which where insinuating that i was a stream sniping scumbag. The first two where humorus as i didn't even know i had played a streamer but after a few days it really gets to you. Online bullying is bullying all the same and it does hurt people, some significantly more than others.

Now granted the streamer was a scumbag and had apparently requested people harass me since he had "proof" i was sniping. Proof in this case being me playing around a rare card because not playing around it would cost me the game and playing around it left me with a single hp differences meaning if he didn't somehow play two troops in one turn from topdeck wouldn't matter.

ossuary
01-06-2015, 11:13 AM
If anything, can streamers at least tell their viewers not to comment directly to their opponents? If I never find out I'm on stream, my anxiety over it will never come into play. And most of my negative experiences have nothing to do with the streamers themselves, but with the unsolicited comments from the peanut gallery.

This is surprising to me (or really, I guess not TOO surprising, because internet). I can understand people discussing plays in the chat channel for the stream, but to actually berate the opponent in game and telling him he was wrong and bad? That's pretty shitty behavior. I certainly would never do that, or condone anyone else doing it. I'm sorry you had to deal with that - I can certainly see why that kind of experience would give you a negative opinion of streamers.

For the record, I think that's a pretty rare event (at least, for Hex it is).

vickrpg
01-06-2015, 11:33 AM
This is surprising to me (or really, I guess not TOO surprising, because internet). I can understand people discussing plays in the chat channel for the stream, but to actually berate the opponent in game and telling him he was wrong and bad? That's pretty shitty behavior. I certainly would never do that, or condone anyone else doing it. I'm sorry you had to deal with that - I can certainly see why that kind of experience would give you a negative opinion of streamers.

For the record, I think that's a pretty rare event (at least, for Hex it is).

I don't have negative opinion of streamERS. I have a negative opinion of streamING almost exclusively when done without consent, warning or even my knoweldge... Some of my best in game friends are streamers, and I would (and do) show up on their streams if asked. I wouldn't refuse a stream request. I wouldn't ask someone to turn off their stream. I just would like to know when I'm being recorded and when I'm not, then I can deal with it accordingly. that's why I tend to follow who the major streamers are, and I just assume that if I'm playing against them, I am being recorded.


So what?

No different than any other competitive event with an audience.

Not too mention, you can't even see the audience or their reactions.

I can't fathom people who are so paranoid about the possibility that someone they can't see or hear, somewhere, thinks they made a mistake while playing.

Have you never played a tournament or something for a physical tcg live in front of an audience? Did you demand everyone else in the store leave?
When you have a live audience, YOU SEE THEM. YOU KNOW THEY ARE THERE. you adjust your behavior according to your personality and tendencies when in such a position. And there is a big difference between 2-3 people looking at your game, and having your game recorded and broadcast over the internet. If I was at a local card shop and there was a camera crew pointed at my game, you're darned right I would act differently. Not necessarily more polite, or quieter, but different. How would you feel if after playing your non-tournament casual game at the game shop, you found out that there was a hidden camera crew and that your games were recorded and posted all over the internet? Wouldn't you have wanted to know? Same concept with streaming.

Not all of us think of ourselves as professional e-athletes, nor do we want to be. sometimes we just want to play a dang card game, and sometimes our close friends who we can guarantee privacy with are not available.

Everyone who has a different opinion to mine seems to be saying "I don't care, why should you?"
Some people just happen to care about being on display. "On stage" I might be more entertaining, I might curse less, or curse more as is appropriate. I might play differently, play better for reputation, play worse for lulz, play faster, play slower. Something.

::shrugs::
But it doesn't matter. I personally can have fun despite these issues, and I will continue to do so. I can ignore negative comments and still get on with my games. Nothing will change, but at least I've explained my opinion to the best of my ability.

Zophie
01-06-2015, 11:55 AM
If you're being harassed in game, please report this. It doesn't matter if it was due to being broadcast on a stream or not, harassment is not acceptable.

Gwaer
01-06-2015, 11:57 AM
Agreed. If people are harassing you that needs to be dealt with. It's a problem. The stream isn't.

israel.kendall
01-06-2015, 12:24 PM
I feel that playing a game online puts you in the public domain. There is no reasonable rights to privacy in the public.

Vorpal
01-06-2015, 06:31 PM
Viewers harassing you is no different from real life opponents harassing you (which happens ALL the time in other online card games). They need to be reported and hopefully banned. Harassment is bad, no matter the source.

There's no need to attack streaming as a round about way of attacking harassment. Let's attack harassment directly. People play games to relax, there's no place for harassment here.

Kangsta
01-06-2015, 07:14 PM
I feel that playing a game online puts you in the public domain. There is no reasonable rights to privacy in the public.

Thanks everyone for the continued input. Thank you Israel for your input as well. I am trying to figure out whether this issue is actually dealt with in the user agreement or paper or it is just something as you put it "feels" like it is correct.

If Hex says that every game you play belongs to us and therefore anyone has the right to share it at anytime to anyone, and you don't need to know about it. Great I am fine with that. But if this is not been spelled out, I would hope we could find a way to respect each other.

Prodygi, thank you for sharing and I wanted to voice that I support you and know what you mean. There is definitely a difference between being streamed without you knowing and having a crowd look at your game in a physical public space. I think the big issue is knowing. Streaming does not always happen so it may or may not be happening. I want to ask people to not simplify this issue and to understand that different people will have different responses and feelings to it.

No one is saying let's ban streaming, let's get rid of streaming, streaming is evil (well maybe some are ^^) but this thread and what I wanted to propose is more honesty, transparency and respect on all sides when it comes to streaming ^^.

To add one more note, fear of stream sniping I don't think is a good enough reason to not tell the opponent IMHO. Because you are the one choosing to stream, if they decide to take shady behaviour that is the fault on their side, you did your job by being honest and courteous.
In the same way someone can argue that no one needs to tell anyone that they are streaming because people should assume every game is being streamed because people are playing in a "public" realm and people just have to live with that.
Someone could argue that the choice to stream opens up opportunities for shady behaviour and people just have to live with that. I know it's not the ideal argument nor situation, but until Hex provides a better way for spectating this is the situation we live with ^^

PS I am not condoning stream sniping ^^ Just wanted to make that clear.

Prodygi
01-06-2015, 07:45 PM
@oss
It happens more often than you think. Even in hex.

@Gwaer
I agree with you. But at the same time, those people wouldn't be haressing us if it wasn't because of the stream.

Gwaer
01-06-2015, 09:09 PM
Those same people would be harassing someone, be it in their own games, or just in general. The stream isn't the problem. Even if it were the streamer encouraging his viewers to harass you, the issue isn't streaming in that case it is the streamer. Nothing is because of the stream.

Cirouss
01-07-2015, 01:47 AM
To be honest, from my perspective as a streamer I battle a lot of people every day I stream. The only thing that happens is that people judge on me and my misplays (which is totally fine, I even got a PUNT emote for that :P) but they NEVER judge on my opponent because they just can not. They don't know whats in his hand, they can not say what was right and wrong from his hand. So IMO there is nothing you have to worry about. Besides, it is not possible for you to shut down streams because you don't want that. When we meet in a game you can ask me to shut down the stream and you know what? I won't just tell 150+ people "Ok guys, good bye, we can not stream here.".

That is just not how it works. However, you can always be sure that people will not judge on you and IF they would ever do it on my stream then I will bring it to a stop since it is not fair. So I personally don't agree with your problems from my point of view as a streamer since it is never happening.

Just to make sure: This is just MY personal oppinion.


Cirouss

KingGabriel
01-07-2015, 04:18 PM
@cirouss clearly, what caused me to lose in the blood cup after beating you on stream was the fact people saw a tiny fraction of my cards, not that i was massively massively tired by that point :P

Saeijou
01-07-2015, 05:10 PM
@cirouss clearly, what caused me to lose in the blood cup after beating you on stream was the fact people saw a fraction of my cards, not that i was massively massively tired by that point :P

That's actually a valid point ;) Although it will make no impact I guess... you have no chance to deny people streaming the game.

KingGabriel
01-07-2015, 06:59 PM
That's actually a valid point ;) Although it will make no impact I guess... you have no chance to deny people streaming the game.

The point i was trying to make is its very easy to blame streamers and not your own ability :P

Cirouss
01-08-2015, 02:53 AM
@cirouss clearly, what caused me to lose in the blood cup after beating you on stream was the fact people saw a tiny fraction of my cards, not that i was massively massively tired by that point :P

Muahaha my "Evil-Master-Deluxe-Sabotage-KG"-Plan was a huge success!!! ;D

KingGabriel
01-08-2015, 02:58 AM
Muahaha my "Evil-Master-Deluxe-Sabotage-KG"-Plan was a huge success!!! ;D
No it wasn't, i didn't see you play agent of mole or sabotage even once! :rolleyes:

Kroan
01-08-2015, 04:01 AM
To be honest cirouss, I actually have seen some people question opponents in your stream (as any other). I still think it shouldn't matter in any way. I personally used to black out the name of my opponent, but it's required at all. I don't really get the whole "oh no, other people might see me playing bad" attitude, but eh... that's me I guess :P

Kangsta
01-08-2015, 07:20 AM
Hey guys found a really interesting youtube video that is somewhat related to this topic ^^ Well it's bigger but the idea is there.
Are "let's play" videos legal? You could turn the question into. Is profiting from twitch using another game legal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28NZxeViHZY#t=735

In the end good news for people, but still the rights of what we have been talking about is still up in the air ^^.

If one day Hex says no more twitch, you can only use Hex Spectator mode, then we won't have this problem we are talking about right now ^^ But watch the video, I know that Hex would probably never do that, but stupider things have happened in the past ^^ (I am kinda quoting the guy in the video ^^)

Enjoy Hexers!

Saeijou
01-08-2015, 08:00 AM
Hey guys found a really interesting youtube video that is somewhat related to this topic ^^ Well it's bigger but the idea is there.
Are "let's play" videos legal? You could turn the question into. Is profiting from twitch using another game legal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28NZxeViHZY#t=735

In the end good news for people, but still the rights of what we have been talking about is still up in the air ^^.

If one day Hex says no more twitch, you can only use Hex Spectator mode, then we won't have this problem we are talking about right now ^^ But watch the video, I know that Hex would probably never do that, but stupider things have happened in the past ^^ (I am kinda quoting the guy in the video ^^)

Enjoy Hexers!

Nintendo tried to get rid of Let's play videos... No success. Sorry.. but if Nintendo can't do it, it's a long way for CZE I guess :)

Kroan
01-08-2015, 08:17 AM
Nintendo did it successfully. It's just that the backlash was so big they changed their policy on it again (I think... I haven't followed the end of it). What you're basically saying is "No, community, we don't want you to promote our games for free"

ossuary
01-08-2015, 08:23 AM
Nintendo didn't get rid of them, they just tried to claim the right to earn the YouTube ad revenue from them, instead of the person doing the actual streaming. There was such a terrific outburst about it, they had to reverse the policy.

Vorpal
01-08-2015, 02:18 PM
Streaming a game is not like being recorded in person.no one sees you, your face, your clothes, etc. If the streamer doesn't open the chat window, they don't even see what you typed.

So then, what would you possibly do differently if you knew the game was being streamed? Everything about your attitude, appearance, emotions, etc, are completely hidden.

There is no real difference between posting a recording of a game to your stream, and posting a textfile of all the plays that happened. I am sure no one would take exception to the latter, right? You aren't going to tell some guy he can't write down what happened in the game, are you?

Kangsta
01-08-2015, 07:38 PM
Streaming a game is not like being recorded in person.no one sees you, your face, your clothes, etc. If the streamer doesn't open the chat window, they don't even see what you typed.

So then, what would you possibly do differently if you knew the game was being streamed? Everything about your attitude, appearance, emotions, etc, are completely hidden.

There is no real difference between posting a recording of a game to your stream, and posting a textfile of all the plays that happened. I am sure no one would take exception to the latter, right? You aren't going to tell some guy he can't write down what happened in the game, are you?

Vorpal ^^ Appreciate the input but the two examples are obviously very different. One is live, the other is not. One is public the other is not. To make your analogy more accurate it would be like someone taking notes as you play then emailing them to other people as the game is going on. Then that person receiving emails every now and then from someone who is looking at the emails, and having that conversation continuing without the other person knowing.

TL;DR - I guess what I want to say is that streaming live to many people involves a lot of different things.

Kangsta
01-08-2015, 07:40 PM
Nintendo did it successfully. It's just that the backlash was so big they changed their policy on it again (I think... I haven't followed the end of it). What you're basically saying is "No, community, we don't want you to promote our games for free"

Interesting, I think it does ring a bell that Nintendo tried to pull something off like that. I am surprised the guy who made the video didn't mention that.

But yeah I only brought up that video because I thought it was somewhat interesting and added just a little bit to our discussion here. I didn't know if it warranted a separate thread ^^

vickrpg
01-09-2015, 08:25 AM
@Gwaer
I agree with you. But at the same time, those people wouldn't be haressing us if it wasn't because of the stream.
Truth.

Those same people would be harassing someone, be it in their own games, or just in general. The stream isn't the problem. Even if it were the streamer encouraging his viewers to harass you, the issue isn't streaming in that case it is the streamer. Nothing is because of the stream.
If we assume that only 1 out of every 10 people (for ease of analogy, not close to real numbers) is going to harass you, then you will only run into this problem 1/10 random games. But if you are streamed to 10 people, then one person is likely to, for just the one game. If you're streamed to 100, then then 10 people are, for the one game. etc...
Being on a stream doesn't cause harassment, but it definitely makes it happen more frequently.
But you're right, we shouldn't blame streaming/streamers for harassment, and it should (and is, at least by me) reported when encountered.
However, there are comments that are not necessarily negative in nature that are a direct result of streaming that make me uncomfortable when they come out of left field. E.g. "I saw you beat X yesterday. That was a great game?" Is not negative in the slightest but my initial reaction is: "wtf, I was being recorded? why wasn't I told? What deck was I playing? was it the same one as here? DId I say something in chat wrong? Was I polite enough? Was I too quiet? I would have played differently"
The fact that this usually appears as a "Lol, I saw u lose to X. your so bad!1" is annoying, but not the root of my personal issue.
This definitely comes from streaming and would be prevented by simply blacking out my name or just telling me I'm on a stream.


Streaming a game is not like being recorded in person.no one sees you, your face, your clothes, etc. If the streamer doesn't open the chat window, they don't even see what you typed.
Of course it's not exactly the same as being recorded, but there are similarities, and your "reputation" is equally affected in game. They don't see my face, clothes, etc. But they see my username. If they saw my face, they couldn't ID me in Game, but they can with my username. Face and clothes are no more relevant in a stream than Username is in real life. The player in the stream is easily identified, that is the issue. And everyone* opens the chat window.

*most people do. please don't start saying "I don't!"

So then, what would you possibly do differently if you knew the game was being streamed? Everything about your attitude, appearance, emotions, etc, are completely hidden.
Assuming an Open chat window, I could participate more actively, or be more quiet, depending on my mood. I could trash talk more, or less, I could try to be entertaining, or private. There's tons I could do to participate more/less actively.

Assuming no open chat window, (which I think is rude btw) I might play slower to offset his stream/card explanations. I might Play with more focus, knowing I will be remembered for this, or that people will comment on the game. I might play for more lulz or play to increase dramatic tension. Tons of things. They might not matter to you, but they do to me.


There is no real difference between posting a recording of a game to your stream, and posting a textfile of all the plays that happened. I am sure no one would take exception to the latter, right? You aren't going to tell some guy he can't write down what happened in the game, are you?
If my username was posted all over the text, it reached dozens, or maybe hundreds of readers, and I didn't find out about it before hand, Yes I would take exception to this. But if you don't understand why by now (I feel like i've been repeating myself in my posts) I don't expect you to.

No I would not ask them to not post it. But I would like to know it is being posted, Or if you suspect that I will cheat If I know, I would like to be at least partially anonymous.

There's nothing more comforting than when I'm playing a known streamer and I say something like "Say hi to your viewers for me" and they say "actually, I'm not streaming right now." I breathe a sigh of relief and have much more fun.

Again, I have no issue with streaming and streamers. I watch them. I'm friends with some of them. But I have no desire to be one, especially not without my knowledge.

But it happens, a lot, and I deal with it. And my opinion is legitimate. Feel free to disagree.

Gwaer
01-09-2015, 08:32 AM
If you're concerned about how you're portrayed on stream. Maybe it'd be best if you always act like you are on stream. If everyone did that the community might improve even more.

Xenavire
01-09-2015, 10:49 AM
Other than my occasional gripes about seriously bad luck, I am always respectful and pleasant - I have no reason to filter my behaviour on stream.

I was recently against Cirouss in a R2 match in draft, and I got some barely playable hands that I probably shouldn't have kept against his fairly fast deck, and I made a few great plays, but in the end I lost - something I am not at all ashamed about. After the match was over I stopped by to see how he was doing in finals and to say GG, and I am happy for the experience - I got a good match, and I got to hang out afterwards like you would at a local card shop, an experience I haven't had much of in years.

So there are some very different views on being recorded, and not all of them are negative.

Zophie
01-09-2015, 11:15 AM
Maybe it'd be best if you always act like you are on stream.

"All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse’s arms.
Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress’ eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon’s mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything."

(William Shakespeare's 'As You Like It', Act II Scene VII)

vickrpg
01-09-2015, 12:28 PM
If you're concerned about how you're portrayed on stream. Maybe it'd be best if you always act like you are on stream. If everyone did that the community might improve even more.
It's not always about being nice/polite. I sometimes like to showboat when I'm recorded, or help out with entertainment. Sometimes I don't. If I always acted like I were on stream, I would never be able to have a relaxing game.



So there are some very different views on being recorded, and not all of them are negative.

Oh trust me, I am aware that my opinion is the minority. And in your example, you knew you were being streamed, and acted accordingly. It was also a perfect example of behavior I could not do if I don't know I am being streamed.



(William Shakespeare's 'As You Like It', Act II Scene VII)
It's also nice to know what part you're currently playing.

thegreybetween
01-09-2015, 01:08 PM
Seems like the simple solution would just be to black out the opponent's username while streaming. Then they have the benefit of remaining fairly anonymous while the streamer has the benefit of an audience. Granted, a clever viewer participating in the same tournament could reverse-engineer the username under particular circumstances, but the cost-benefit of this would render it moot in most situations.

For the record, I'm completely in vickrpg's camp. I have no problem with the concept of streaming and do not generally object to it, but I would absolutely prefer to remain anonymous unless given the explicit option of displaying my information on the stream. I understand why streamers do not announce the stream to opponents, but I still don't think it completely removes their responsibility for a little common courtesy.

So, simple solution: Black out the opposing username while streaming unless you're willing to ask them (and therefore reveal the fact that you're streaming) if you can broadcast their name. Minimal hassle on the streamer's part, while adequately accommodating the privacy of the opponent.

Valoisian
01-09-2015, 01:31 PM
If your opponent seems to be top decking everything they need and they are running a Clam deck, you can bet you're being streamed.

plaguedealer
01-09-2015, 02:02 PM
In other streams I have seen people black out the opponents name as stated above. I think the reasoning was to protect the opponent so they dont get in game messages that they suck, etc. Hopefully that is not too big of an issue in hex, also some people like to see their name in the stream so there is that.

Edit: awhile back I remember a discussion about keeping your opponent's name anonymous at all times. I can see this nullyfing alot of the ills that come with dtcg, maybe even curb some stream sniping. Not sure if the issue has been brought up with hex, kind of surprised it hasnt.

Xenavire
01-09-2015, 02:26 PM
It's not always about being nice/polite. I sometimes like to showboat when I'm recorded, or help out with entertainment. Sometimes I don't. If I always acted like I were on stream, I would never be able to have a relaxing game.



Oh trust me, I am aware that my opinion is the minority. And in your example, you knew you were being streamed, and acted accordingly. It was also a perfect example of behavior I could not do if I don't know I am being streamed.


It's also nice to know what part you're currently playing.

I didn't know I was being recorded - I assumed it, and acted on the assumption later. And I didn't modify my behaviour at all - I played well and lost, and later went to watch the finals, which I thought was neat.

I have run into multiple streamers and have had no idea whether they were streaming or not. I just play as normal every time.

thegreybetween
01-09-2015, 02:37 PM
Of course, if you're chatting, it will be a little more complicated because your username will appear in the chatbox and it would not be feasible for the streamer to hide them.

Streaming is definitely a bit of a conundrum.
- If you tell people you're streaming, it is polite but you open the door to snipe cheating
- If you don't tell people you're streaming, you're usually all good unless your viewers take any action (be it complimentary or harassing) toward the opponent. While you are not directly responsible for the viewer's behavior, it could nevertheless cause you more trouble than you anticipated.
- If you are not streaming and do not wish to be streamed, you have very few options aside from avoiding any public platform
- If you know you're being streamed and do not wish it, it is impractical and rude to ask the streamer to cut the feed, thus you have no choice but to bail out or deal with it
- If you do not know you're being streamed, ignorance is bliss unless/until it comes back to haunt you later.

Long story short: As much as it represents something that we may or may not want to deal with, streaming is allowed and should therefore be expected. While playing public games, always do your best to conduct yourself as if you're "on stage". If it turns out you're not being streamed, your opponent will nevertheless appreciate your engaged performance. And if you are being streamed, you've got your game face on already.

plaguedealer
01-09-2015, 02:55 PM
Has anonymous drafting been discussed in hex to anyone's knowledge? If so, does anyone remember the pros and cons?

hacky
01-09-2015, 03:21 PM
You and your opponent's name is public knowledge in any PvP game of Hex.

Pezzle
01-09-2015, 03:21 PM
Wait, it is impractical and rude to request a streamer stop the feed? Why is it rude?

What is going on around here?

plaguedealer
01-09-2015, 03:23 PM
You and your opponent's name is public knowledge in any PvP game of Hex.
Would you care either way if drafting was anonymous, I would not mind anonymous drafting tbh.

hacky
01-09-2015, 03:26 PM
Wait, it is impractical and rude to request a streamer stop the feed? Why is it rude?

What is going on around here?

It is rude to demand your opponent in Hex to do anything besides play a game of Hex with you.

You are free to make any request of your opponent, but impractical (impossible) to force that your request be followed.


Would you care either way if drafting was anonymous, I would not mind anonymous drafting tbh.

I would not make myself anonymous, but would not mind the existence of options to make one able to play anonymously.

However, given Hex's roots in physical face-to-face games, part of the draw of games like Hex is that you are NOT anonymous. That's why you know who is at the table with you in a draft. That's why you know who is signed up for a tournament with you. That is why you can see who your opponent is, and are free to locally talk to your opponent.

plaguedealer
01-09-2015, 03:36 PM
I think the con for anonymous dtafting is that you lose that feeling of saying "hey I am playing hacky, crap he is a good player". The pro is it would stop some stream sniping, almost make this thread void ans would put a small dent in collusion. I need to think about this more before I advocate one or another.

Pezzle
01-09-2015, 03:42 PM
It is rude to demand your opponent in Hex to do anything besides play a game of Hex with you.



By that logic isn't it rude of a streamer to broadcast a match without permission? To be clear, I have no huge issue with streamers or streaming, but calling the other party rude seems over the top. Seems like the wrong party is being attacked here.

hacky
01-09-2015, 03:48 PM
By that logic isn't it rude of a streamer to broadcast a match without permission? To be clear, I have no huge issue with streamers or streaming, but calling the other party rude seems over the top. Seems like the wrong party is being attacked here.

I can't stop my opponent from doing anything.

My opponent can take screenshots of my match, record or broadcast my match, tell others what kinds of cards are in my deck, post on the forums about how badly he wrecked me. My opponent could also choose to do nothing.

I cannot expect to be able to force my opponent to do anything besides complete a game of Hex with me. If my opponent feels a need to not play under any real or perceived condition, they can either not play or concede (they are equivalent due to the game timer's enforcement of the game). But I can't force that concession either. It is entirely up to my opponent.

Hex is not a physical game. I am not pointing a camera at my opponent, the camera is pointed at my monitor, my view of the game. The rules and etiquette that apply to recording a live game do not similarly apply to a digital game.

israel.kendall
01-09-2015, 03:55 PM
This is the modern age of gaming, things like streaming are things everyone is just going to have to learn to live with really. Even consoles are integrating streaming now.

Pezzle
01-09-2015, 04:22 PM
I am not the one injecting 'forced', 'impractical' or 'demand' into the conversation. Hex does not have streaming built into the client. Labeling people as rude if they do not want to be streamed (impossible, impractical or not) is ludicrous. As a streamer yourself, you have the power to not only respect a reasonable request, but set an example to other streamers if you chose to.

And that is not even suggesting that streamers need to turn off the feed, just don't start painting the other party in a negative light or pretend there is nothing to be done when you have the power.

poizonous
01-09-2015, 04:28 PM
I am not the one injecting 'forced', 'impractical' or 'demand' into the conversation. Hex does not have streaming built into the client. Labeling people as rude if they do not want to be streamed (impossible, impractical or not) is ludicrous. As a streamer yourself, you have the power to not only respect a reasonable request, but set an example to other streamers if you chose to.

And that is not even suggesting that streamers need to turn off the feed, just don't start painting the other party in a negative light or pretend there is nothing to be done when you have the power.


so you are saying because my opponent doesn't want to be streamed that i, as a streamer who does not get tons of available time to stream, actually have to turn my stream off and send my viewers away... yeah because that seems fair

hacky
01-09-2015, 04:31 PM
I am not the one injecting 'forced', 'impractical' or 'demand' into the conversation. Hex does not have streaming built into the client. Labeling people as rude if they do not want to be streamed (impossible, impractical or not) is ludicrous. As a streamer yourself, you have the power to not only respect a reasonable request, but set an example to other streamers if you chose to.

What you are proposing, asking someone to not record (livestream) a game of Hex, is not a reasonable request.

It is 'ludicrous', to use your term, that you have any ownership of the images and data I can see through my Hex client. You do not own your username. You cannot claim that your username and your gameplay data can be construed as "your likeness". When I record the game of Hex that I see, I am not recording "you". This is the point of contention.

I have not called anyone who may request to not be streamed "rude". Only that a request for me to not record Hex gameplay involving a player from my point of view, is unreasonable. If you think me rude for stating my point bluntly, there may not be any way for me to convince you otherwise.

When I livestream, I am only recording and transmitting data that I have access to, and is presented to me. And that includes my opponent's name, and their gameplay.

---

Live analogy:

I have a video camera. I am taking a video of a landmark in a public area. You are also at this location, looking at this landmark. You happen to be in the camera's view. You know that I am recording (red light on).

Am I being rude for trying to record my video? If you ask me to not use or to delete the video I have recorded, is that rude? If you ask me not to record video while you continue to stand in my camera's view, is that rude?

If you were to step out of the camera's view, and I were to follow you, that would be rude. That is not the situation in question.

Rehab
01-09-2015, 04:37 PM
If a streamer were to state at that beginning of a match "i am streaming this match, is that ok with you" i would be curious to know how many people would actually respond with a "no, please dont stream me". A streamer who has a hand blocker(to minimise snipers advantage) should try this sometime as an experiment.

thegreybetween
01-09-2015, 04:47 PM
Relax, Pezzle. My earlier statement is simply the product of the discussion in the rest of this thread, and isn't a label so much as a point of consideration. My apologies if it came across as an attack. Again, I fall into the camp that would rather not be streamed, but given the circumstances, big-picture etiquette dictates that my request to shut down a feed negatively affects more people than it benefits, and therefore it is probably not the best course of action.

So I apologize for dropping the "rude" word, but stand behind the impracticality of the request. You still have every right to request it, but they have equal right (and likely greater reason) to refuse.

poizonous
01-09-2015, 04:51 PM
another thing to keep in mind. some streamers are now sponsored and have people subscribed to their channel. asking a person to not stream now not only affects the streamer. but the people paying for his/her entertainment services

Pezzle
01-09-2015, 04:54 PM
I am totally relaxed. No worries. If people do not want to be streamed, feel free to ask.

It is just fascinating how charged some issues get.


People being sponsored or not is hardly my problem. It is not your problem either, just to be clear. As if anyone is somehow obligated to help a person get sponsor money. If you want to stream? Great! They can be entertaining. I hope people enjoy the experience. That hardly obligates someone else to support it.

thegreybetween
01-09-2015, 04:57 PM
Agreed.

Rendakor
01-09-2015, 06:09 PM
Live analogy:

I have a video camera. I am taking a video of a landmark in a public area. You are also at this location, looking at this landmark. You happen to be in the camera's view. You know that I am recording (red light on).

Am I being rude for trying to record my video? If you ask me to not use or to delete the video I have recorded, is that rude? If you ask me not to record video while you continue to stand in my camera's view, is that rude?

If you were to step out of the camera's view, and I were to follow you, that would be rude. That is not the situation in question.
I forgot Hex implemented a red light in-client to tell you whenever your opponent is streaming.

israel.kendall
01-09-2015, 06:15 PM
It doesn't matter about any red light. If you are in public it is perfectly legit to record you with or without your knowledge, here in the US at least.

Zophie
01-09-2015, 06:53 PM
Keep in mind what happens in HexTCG is the property and domain of HEX Entertainment. You submit to this when you agree to the EULA upon running the client for the first time and every time it's updated. As far as recordings go within the game client, this is covered in the terms and conditions (https://hextcg.com/terms-and-conditions/) as follows:


1. Recordings. Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to access and use the HEX Game. HEX Entertainment, through the HEX Game, may use third party websites and technologies to record or stream gameplay or chat dialogue (“Recordings”). HEX Entertainment does not object to the creation and distribution of Recordings so long as such Recordings, (i) do not include third party trading card games, or other products or services that are competitive with HEX Entertainment products, (ii) otherwise comply with the terms of this License, (iii) are not commercially sold or distributed, and (iv) comply with all national, state and local laws, rules and regulations. If you are uncertain about your right to create or distribute the Recordings you created, you should contact a legal advisor.

hex_colin
01-09-2015, 07:49 PM
I don't especially like my (many) mistakes to be broadcast, but I'd never ask a streamer to stop streaming if/when I got matched with them. Worst case I make a mistake and people laugh at me. Best case I make a mistake, someone underestimates me in the future, and I get an advantage as a result. Such is life...

funktion
01-09-2015, 07:59 PM
If a streamer were to state at that beginning of a match "i am streaming this match, is that ok with you" i would be curious to know how many people would actually respond with a "no, please dont stream me". A streamer who has a hand blocker(to minimise snipers advantage) should try this sometime as an experiment.

Not that it is completely related to what you mentioned... But I've also seen posts by people who don't care if they are vs a streamer but that they just don't want to be told that they are (that would tilt them personally). Which creates a catch 22 of sorts.

Regarding what you said though I'd like to see that as well. My gut tells me that very few would care and this is much to do about nothing.

Saeijou
01-09-2015, 11:08 PM
If a streamer were to state at that beginning of a match "i am streaming this match, is that ok with you" i would be curious to know how many people would actually respond with a "no, please dont stream me". A streamer who has a hand blocker(to minimise snipers advantage) should try this sometime as an experiment.

and what are you doing, if they say "no"? cancel your stream? ^^

Kangsta
01-10-2015, 02:02 AM
Wow this conversation is still going ^^

Wanted to put in my input a little again.

First, I appreciate and enjoy streamers, would never want them to go away.
Second, I think it would be good to let people know they are being streamed ^^
Third, once money becomes involved it does get a bit different.
Someone brought up the issue of taking video of a person in public. This is OK as long as it is private and you are not making money off of it. But if someones is making money then things get a bit more gray. If the subject being filmed is directly connected to the video's theme and how the money is being made, then you need explicit permission.
Finally, I think it is fine for someone to request to not be streamed and I think it is up to the streamer to make the decision, on how to respect or if need be decline the request.

Since there is no rule that Hex has decided in the end we have to decide as a group of not like minded people ^^

BTW Thank you Zophie!! That is exactly what I was looking for when I started this thread... but as I feared, it's not clear or spelled out enough to really deal with the questions that I had.

TJTaylor
01-10-2015, 10:05 AM
I don't think it is reasonable to expect a streamer to inform people that they are streaming the match. It opens them up to being sniped not to mention HEX endorses and embraces streaming. It is, and will continue to be, a big part of the game so we have to expect that we will end up in a stream now and then. However, I do think streamers have a social responsibility to protect the identity of their opponents from idiots on the internet who happen to be watching their streams. They may not be technically obligated to do this but it's the right thing to do.

I think most apprehension to being streamed comes from people being worried about making broadcasted mistakes but they shouldn't let that bother them. Everyone makes play mistakes all the time. The pros make tons of mistakes. Those streamers do too. As do the people watching. Nobody is perfect and each and every one of us has room for improvement so don't sweat it.

If anything, look at playing against a streamer as an opportunity to go back after the match and watch it from the opponent's perspective. It is a good way to learn and grow as a player since you will better see your own mistakes and understand why your opponent played the way they did during your game.

Arbiter
01-11-2015, 04:51 PM
My biggest worry would be stream fan boys doing everything they can to make the streamer win. Most streamers will come down hard on that behaviour, though, if it is brought to their attention.

poizonous
01-11-2015, 05:02 PM
@Arbiter what exactly do you mean by Stream fan boys doing everything they can to make the streamer win?

israel.kendall
01-11-2015, 05:32 PM
My biggest worry would be stream fan boys doing everything they can to make the streamer win. Most streamers will come down hard on that behaviour, though, if it is brought to their attention.

What, people do this?!

Vorpal
01-11-2015, 09:16 PM
By that logic isn't it rude of a streamer to broadcast a match without permission? To be clear, I have no huge issue with streamers or streaming, but calling the other party rude seems over the top. Seems like the wrong party is being attacked here.

No.

The correct party is being criticized here.

A streamer is not trying to force his opponent to do anything.

Someone asking a streamer to stop streaming is attempting to force him to stop streaming, and however many viewers he has to stop watching.

Analogy time!

A tourist taking pictures of the Washington monument is not rude.

Another tourist demanding everyone else stop taking pictures of the Washington monument as long as he is looking at it is rude.

Prodygi
01-11-2015, 09:36 PM
The streamer is forcing the other player to be on stream.

Analogy.

A person not wanting to be film is perfectly reasonable.
A person who ignores and carry on filming that person is rude.

It's all about perspective. A does something(streaming) that B is uncomfortable with. At this point, A can either accomodate B or choose to ignore B. Either way, i personally do not think there's a right or wrong answer here. But i do believe the choice that were made reflects on the person.

Gwaer
01-11-2015, 09:42 PM
Agreed. A streamer that turns on your webcam and streams you in your underwear without your Consent is wrong. However you don't own or have any right to the information hex ents servers broadcast to his computer. Even if you are picking which bits they're sending. They aren't yours.