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chili
01-26-2015, 11:42 PM
So, I think we can all agree that the metagame is severely dominated by gore-feast storm decks and decks that try to counter gorefeast storm decks. Problem is none of the cards in teh deck are what I would call overpowered (I did not not even think the 3 cost Inquisitor with the original red ruby gem was OP), so I am not calling for a nerf. I believe this problem will be solved simply with more efficient removal put into the game, problem is that will happen when set 3 is introduced. And that will be when realistically? I know technically its supposed to be 3-4 months after set 2, but I'm thinking more like July. This really sucks, the VIP constructed tournament is not fun having to face the same deck every time so could we see perhaps some solutions to this, I don't think anyone would complain about some temporary community card bans for the large constructed tournaments. Or maybe just give us some PVP cards that are also PVE in arena that make playing the tournaments more interesting, cause right the game does not feel balanced at all and the metagame sucks.

A solution could be as simple as printing a 3/3 or 3/4 for 3 that battles target troop when it enters play. Or better overall removal. Again I do not think the cards are overpowered (Gore is too expensive and requires creatures), and cerulean knight would just suck in a game that has dark confidant and lightning bolt, it just feels that with our current card pool either we need some sweepers in other colors or better removal overall and the problems will disappear. I just know if this happens until set 3 (which I expect will be released at July the earliest) I simply will not play any constructed tournament of any kind, it does not seem fun to me at all and regardless if this was the most fun I was having it is not a healthy meta when this deck makes up for more that half of the top 8s and you face it 75% of the time in VIP constructed.

funktion
01-26-2015, 11:51 PM
I disagree with most of this post. I am about to get some sleep however and will hopefully respond more in depth tomorrow.

However the TLDR version is: just because a deck is popular does not mean it is the best. A deck's popularity will make its results seem more astronomical on the surface, but that is being skewed. The sky is not falling, the meta might be a little less diverse right now but I'd say it is still pretty wide open.

Gwaer
01-27-2015, 12:05 AM
People said the same things about ruby only gorefeast in set one. Then about blood, then BD, all of those were beaten in major tournaments. The set 2 meta hasn't had a chance to shake out. It's still in the first phase of most new sets. Aggro. Give it time.

israel.kendall
01-27-2015, 12:39 AM
Agreed, give it time to develop. I'm betting there are some great undiscovered decks out there.

magic_gazz
01-27-2015, 01:04 AM
Solution, change mirror knight to 1 cost instead of 2.

Then cluckadon can kill it :)

Antfunk
01-27-2015, 03:18 AM
Not another Gorefeast post :(.

Struyk
01-27-2015, 03:20 AM
So, I think we can all agree that the metagame is severely dominated by gore-feast storm decks and decks that try to counter gorefeast storm decks. Problem is none of the cards in teh deck are what I would call overpowered (I did not not even think the 3 cost Inquisitor with the original red ruby gem was OP), so I am not calling for a nerf. I believe this problem will be solved simply with more efficient removal put into the game, problem is that will happen when set 3 is introduced. And that will be when realistically? I know technically its supposed to be 3-4 months after set 2, but I'm thinking more like July. This really sucks, the VIP constructed tournament is not fun having to face the same deck every time so could we see perhaps some solutions to this, I don't think anyone would complain about some temporary community card bans for the large constructed tournaments. Or maybe just give us some PVP cards that are also PVE in arena that make playing the tournaments more interesting, cause right the game does not feel balanced at all and the metagame sucks.

A solution could be as simple as printing a 3/3 or 3/4 for 3 that battles target troop when it enters play. Or better overall removal. Again I do not think the cards are overpowered (Gore is too expensive and requires creatures), and cerulean knight would just suck in a game that has dark confidant and lightning bolt, it just feels that with our current card pool either we need some sweepers in other colors or better removal overall and the problems will disappear. I just know if this happens until set 3 (which I expect will be released at July the earliest) I simply will not play any constructed tournament of any kind, it does not seem fun to me at all and regardless if this was the most fun I was having it is not a healthy meta when this deck makes up for more that half of the top 8s and you face it 75% of the time in VIP constructed.

Agree 100%, I see no reason to play constructed when I already know which decks I'm going to face.

Antfunk
01-27-2015, 03:22 AM
My experience of Gorefeast in VIP is as follows:

Very skilled players who win because they know what they are doing with a strong deck, (why would you not play a sting deck in competitive).
Not so skilled players that play it because they think it is the deck to play and losing, (e.g attack with mirror knight when I have no troops then I laugh as I repel.).

Either way there are plenty of other strong decks that can win or counter Gorefeast. People just need to learn to side board better/ build decks that are most efficient/effective against multiple strong deck types.

Antfunk
01-27-2015, 03:26 AM
Agree 100%, I see no reason to play constructed when I already know which decks I'm going to face.

I don't think anyone expected to play your mono diamond deck.

Poetic
01-27-2015, 03:57 AM
Wait for the VIP 4-0 decks to be posted. Think some people will be surprised at some of the decks in a good way.

Struyk
01-27-2015, 03:59 AM
I don't think anyone expected to play your mono diamond deck.

I just didn't want to play boring gorefeast mirror matches sorry

Antfunk
01-27-2015, 04:32 AM
I just didn't want to play boring gorefeast mirror matches sorry

That makes no sense whatsoever. There are more options than Gorefeast or mono diamond. Mono diamond in competitive is just weak in comparison. A bit like your arguments.

desk
01-27-2015, 05:15 AM
That makes no sense whatsoever. There are more options than Gorefeast or mono diamond. Mono diamond in competitive is just weak in comparison. A bit like your arguments.

Just ignore each other and move on please

Struyk
01-27-2015, 05:21 AM
That makes no sense whatsoever. There are more options than Gorefeast or mono diamond. Mono diamond in competitive is just weak in comparison. A bit like your arguments.

Went 2-2 both VIPs so I don't think so :) Shinobi, Angel of Dawn, Unicorn an Exile etc are all great cards!

Warrender
01-27-2015, 05:24 AM
If people would think about it, it's pretty simple why there's a dearth of anti-Gorefeast decks. The shard most suited to fighting against Gorefeast is Ruby. Since it's a no-brainer to throw Gorefeast into any deck running Ruby unless you are playing some kind troop-less deck, you become the problem instead of the solution.

With that said, Ruby Diamond Control could be a thing...but of course, it would be better if it had Gorefeast in it. :D

Thrawn
01-27-2015, 06:31 AM
Wasn't this post just locked a few hours ago? :rolleyes:

(http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40468)

Antfunk
01-27-2015, 06:35 AM
Went 2-2 both VIPs so I don't think so :) Shinobi, Angel of Dawn, Unicorn an Exile etc are all great cards!

Again this makes no sense. You said you only come up against these Gorefeast decks which are unbeatable and you lost because they are OP and pay to win or whatever yet you also claim to have gone 2-2.

Also isn't Angel an expensive card? How dare you use it in your deck to get an advantage over others.

Antfunk
01-27-2015, 06:37 AM
Wasn't this post just locked a few hours ago? :rolleyes:

(http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40468)

Thankfully it was. At this point I am wondering if TC is an alt account. Apologies if not the case but 2 virtually identical forum posts in less than a day is....

Struyk
01-27-2015, 07:06 AM
Again this makes no sense. You said you only come up against these Gorefeast decks which are unbeatable and you lost because they are OP and pay to win or whatever yet you also claim to have gone 2-2.

Also isn't Angel an expensive card? How dare you use it in your deck to get an advantage over others.

Mono Diamond is alot worse without Angel of Dawn thats for sure :D Where did I say they were unbeatable? They got a huge advantage over pretty much any other deck thought. Tried to counter it and still went only 2-2 :D Lesson learned = Frost wizard, Immortality and Blinding lgiht dont counter gorefeast / mirror knight.

I think you all get me wrong, I don't make these posts for myself because I do have all the pay2getadvantageoverpoorpeople cards myself and can use them... It's just boring fighting the same deck over and over just because of some broken unbalanced cards :S

Tazelbain
01-27-2015, 07:07 AM
I disagree with most of this post. I am about to get some sleep however and will hopefully respond more in depth tomorrow.

However the TLDR version is: just because a deck is popular does not mean it is the best. A deck's popularity will make its results seem more astronomical on the surface, but that is being skewed. The sky is not falling, the meta might be a little less diverse right now but I'd say it is still pretty wide open.
Agreed. Gorefeast is the most well known winning deck. So people netdecked the Set 02 version to win those sweet, sweet AA. You can't really blame people for wanting to go into a tournament with a winning deck.

Struyk
01-27-2015, 07:09 AM
Agreed. Gorefeast is the most well known winning deck. So people netdecked the Set 02 version to win those sweet, sweet AA. You can't really blame people for wanting to go into a tournament with a winning deck.

Exactly the problem, Gorefeast is alot stronger than any other known deck so people used it to maximize win chance to get VIP AA's. Result, atleast 80% played gorefeast or mirror knight...

Bmon
01-27-2015, 07:16 AM
GoreKnights is certainly a popular deck at the moment, but it is in no way the only competitive deck. Other competitive options are BD midrange, mono blood control, JuzamJedi's version of red deck wins, mono ruby midrange, and Dameneon's WS midrange deck. The problem with other decks is that most of them are far more expensive than RS GoreKnights, so many people just run the cheaper option. I grant you that GoreKnights is a very good deck, but most of its success is due to Future and his team rather than it being so much better than any other option. Future's team are all highly skilled players, and they would have likely still swept Oberon's top 8 piloting another deck.

Jeevus
01-27-2015, 07:25 AM
the fact still remains that cmk trades better than any other card, because it needs to be removaled instantly, which there are not many cards for (burn, Crackling Bolt, Sapper's Charge if it hits board turn 1 and meek). As soon as another troop hits the board with cmk, you got card disadvantage, whether you remove it or not.

Yes, there are Frost Wizards and whatnot to help you against gore. But that's pretty much in theory. For once, gore has enough removals for Wizard or any other troop, but even worse is to get buccaneered. What happens? gore maintains and builds up even more board pressure you need to handle, unless you want to die to gore feast, and gets inspire on bucc.

So what you have to do to keep gore at bay is handle each and every card they play. On top of that, you need some body on the board, unless you want to get gorefeast + poca'ed.


Do i think that it's unbeatable? No of course not. But that doesn't change the fact that card advantage via cmk for 2 is abit over the top. And that doesn't just affect gore feast, it's just the deck where it's most apparent.

Antfunk
01-27-2015, 07:30 AM
Mono Diamond is alot worse without Angel of Dawn thats for sure :D Where did I say they were unbeatable? They got a huge advantage over pretty much any other deck thought. Tried to counter it and still went only 2-2 :D Lesson learned = Frost wizard, Immortality and Blinding lgiht dont counter gorefeast / mirror knight.

I'm not going to quote your entire post about your rage at playing Gorefeast 4 times in a row and it being so overpowered that you cannot beat it, but you did say:

"PS: I'm playing Mono Diamond deck trying to counter these noob decks, but nothing can counter this OP bullcrap."

Struyk
01-27-2015, 07:42 AM
the fact still remains that cmk trades better than any other card, because it needs to be removaled instantly, which there are not many cards for (burn, Crackling Bolt, Sapper's Charge if it hits board turn 1 and meek). As soon as another troop hits the board with cmk, you got card disadvantage, whether you remove it or not.

Yes, there are Frost Wizards and whatnot to help you against gore. But that's pretty much in theory. For once, gore has enough removals for Wizard or any other troop, but even worse is to get buccaneered. What happens? gore maintains and builds up even more board pressure you need to handle, unless you want to die to gore feast, and gets inspire on bucc.

So what you have to do to keep gore at bay is handle each and every card they play. On top of that, you need some body on the board, unless you want to get gorefeast + poca'ed.


Do i think that it's unbeatable? No of course not. But that doesn't change the fact that card advantage via cmk for 2 is abit over the top. And that doesn't affect gore feast, it's just the deck where it's most apparent.

It's pretty much Gorefeast combined with Storm Cloud + Falconer + CMK that is the problem..

plaguedealer
01-27-2015, 07:49 AM
I have a idea, instead of going back and forth on this issue. Pm each other in the game, and play 10 matches and that will give you some base (although not a perfect one).

Malakili
01-27-2015, 07:58 AM
GoreKnights is certainly a popular deck at the moment, but it is in no way the only competitive deck. Other competitive options are BD midrange, mono blood control, JuzamJedi's version of red deck wins, mono ruby midrange, and Dameneon's WS midrange deck. The problem with other decks is that most of them are far more expensive than RS GoreKnights, so many people just run the cheaper option. I grant you that GoreKnights is a very good deck.

I do think you under rate the deck. Yes, of course there are other competitive options. But Gorefeast's power comes from the fact that it's essentially a shell of an aggro/tempo deck but that can effectively combo out to win in the mid/late game on any given turn. I've played a bunch of Gorefeast in addition to other popular decks and one thing it does pretty well is win "out of nowhere." It's turn 6 or whatever, the board is kind of stable looking. Maybe he cleared the board on turn 4 and you played a guy on turn 5. Or there has just been some early back and forth. You opponent it looking at something like his troop and your troop (or frankly any basically even board).

You just have to go, remove his guy (say, crackling bolt), poca, gorefeast and you're going off for 16-18 points of damage.

People are absolutely right to play it because it is very strong in what is meta shaped by the fact that we have a very limited card pool right now. That is the REAL problem here - until the card pool deepens pretty significantly, the meta game isn't going to be incredibly varied and interesting.

Svenn
01-27-2015, 08:26 AM
I believe this problem will be solved simply with more efficient removal put into the game
While I don't like the ridiculous amount of Gorefeast decks, just.... no no no. You know what the other most popular decks are aside from Gorefeast? Control. There's a ton of it. Multiple counters (counterspell, stoneskin, verdict of the ancient kings, splinter, Azathoth), Murder, Extinction, Meek, Mesmerize, Sapper's Charge, Burn, Ragefire, Cannon Volley, Crackling Rot, Crackling Bolt, Atrophy, Sorrow, Mortar Strike, Feeding the Young Ones, Crank Rocket, Bolder Toss, Solitary Exile, Murmers, Immortal Decree, Chaos Key, Polymorph: Dingler/Mass Polymorph, Argus... Then if you get into delay you've got Time Ripple, Buccaneer, Time Wave, Yesterday...

We do not need more control/removal. The problem is with how fast Gorefeast is and how fast it can pump out troops. I've seen people drop 3 Scraptech Brawlers on Turn 3. Poca gives 9 damage with Gorefeast if you don't have a way to block it, and it's disposable so removing it just gives your opponent card advantage. If you don't have a well timed counter or Extinction then you are screwed. Adding more board wipes would just mean that control would be the dominant deck, and it's already pretty dominant.

funktion
01-27-2015, 08:49 AM
Exactly the problem, Gorefeast is alot stronger than any other known deck so people used it to maximize win chance to get VIP AA's. Result, atleast 80% played gorefeast or mirror knight...

Only half of this statement is true, so you should be reluctant to draw any conclusions based on it.

poizonous
01-27-2015, 08:54 AM
Gorefeast Post closed yesterday,,, Gorefeast post opened today.... God damn it people, give me a week without having to bitch you guys out about why gorefeast is not OP lol

Struyk
01-27-2015, 09:04 AM
Gorefeast Post closed yesterday,,, Gorefeast post opened today.... God damn it people, give me a week without having to bitch you guys out about why gorefeast is not OP lol

I think there will be many gorefeast posts after next vip constructed as well because I'm 100% sure nothing will get changed

Axle
01-27-2015, 09:04 AM
While I don't like the ridiculous amount of Gorefeast decks, just.... no no no. You know what the other most popular decks are aside from Gorefeast? Control. There's a ton of it. Multiple counters (counterspell, stoneskin, verdict of the ancient kings, splinter, Azathoth), Murder, Extinction, Meek, Mesmerize, Sapper's Charge, Burn, Ragefire, Cannon Volley, Crackling Rot, Crackling Bolt, Atrophy, Sorrow, Mortar Strike, Feeding the Young Ones, Crank Rocket, Bolder Toss, Solitary Exile, Murmers, Immortal Decree, Chaos Key, Polymorph: Dingler/Mass Polymorph, Argus... Then if you get into delay you've got Time Ripple, Buccaneer, Time Wave, Yesterday...

We do not need more control/removal. The problem is with how fast Gorefeast is and how fast it can pump out troops. I've seen people drop 3 Scraptech Brawlers on Turn 3. Poca gives 9 damage with Gorefeast if you don't have a way to block it, and it's disposable so removing it just gives your opponent card advantage. If you don't have a well timed counter or Extinction then you are screwed. Adding more board wipes would just mean that control would be the dominant deck, and it's already pretty dominant.

Thought I'd bold the listed cards that are actually terrible and we're only running because we have to, or actually aren't quick action removal. Basic action removal isn't a solution to people holding CMK in their hand for their giant plays, so I bold those too. Then there is Burn where a 2 cmc 3 damage quick action will instantly replace it, but who knows if that happens when we got Crackling Bolt instead.

Quick action removal is terrible in HEX right now yes.

poizonous
01-27-2015, 09:07 AM
Your list of bolded cards that are supposedly Terrible just explains how inexperienced you are. 85% of those cards are maindeckable in ANY deck running those shards

Axle
01-27-2015, 09:10 AM
Because we have no choice? Lol. I hate to break it to you but -2/-2 for a 3 cost card is undercurved and gaining a charge doesn't make it much better. Meek isn't really a good card, but Diamond has no choice either.

poizonous
01-27-2015, 09:12 AM
Because we have no choice? Lol.

Any card put into a deck is placed there because of other cards, so your logic is flawed. Removal is ALWAYS dependant on the popular cards seeing play in the Meta. That does not make those cards any worse then they are, if anything it makes them better.

Antfunk
01-27-2015, 09:13 AM
The mind boggles.

Ju66ernaut
01-27-2015, 09:15 AM
I'm with poizonous on this one. Those cards are pretty much all valid and maindeckable.

Roy_G
01-27-2015, 09:25 AM
The problem is that gorefeast can finish the game fast,it can put troops and if not wiped ASAP can do lots of damage.The additions
from set 2 with the crackling bot,storm clouds,verdict and the spy made it worse to play against.It's still beatable,it can be also random and unstable.

I played mono sapphire and got 3-1,beat gorefeast the first round and lost to one in round 4.I don't like playing it or fighting this deck.I know what decks they have and most people just copied the latest version of it.My entire sideboard is built around fighting
gorefeast.

It's predictable and boring.The mirror knight does give major advantage and when playing mono sapphire the falconer gives me
problem if I don't have countermagic ready.Since it's in the meta so much every deck I build to be competitive I plan for dealing
with gorefeast since I'm likely to run into lots of them.

The problem is the mirror knight.Not gorefeast.The rest is OK to deal with even if irritating with the combination of agro and control.

Edit:It's not totally unfun to play against.I became a bit vindictive when playing versus gorefeast.It's fun beating them.

Axle
01-27-2015, 09:36 AM
Okay. Explain to me why the QUICK ACTIONS (not the actions which are actually good cards..but I explained why actions/constants aren't the answer) are not undercosted cards which you would max Murder LOOOOOOOOONG before you even consider playing them.

Here. I'll do my side for you.

Meek: Limited range. Can be dead in many match-ups outside Goreknight. Diamond having limited range is to be expected however, preferably you play them with a shard that doesn't. However, other removal sucks so you really can't unless you're playing Diamond with Ruby..which doesn't really happen.

Crackling Rot: 3 cost -2/-2 isn't good. It's got the range of a burn. It's good against ONE specific card over burn in the metagame obviously, which is Inquisitor. People thinking it's good against Moss are delusional, because to ever beat Moss you would have to make a -1 scenario by using another removal or trading with it. It's a budget answer to Moss. Maybe now your Vamp King can beat that moss in battle or something, but we don't -1 to do something that doesn't down right kill something. You play this card because you have to in Blood. After Murder, this is the next cheapest card that can get rid of Mirror Knight at quick action speed, so you are forced to play it unless you are playing Blood/Ruby, in which case I would never even touch this card in the main deck.

Sapper's Charge: For you to answer CMK at quick action speed, they need to know it's there. They can play around it. Yawn. Also 3 cost overall to do a burn. This is because it's artifact though, as we know. We want to find better answers for sure.

Boulder Toss: Conditional removal. Requires another troop. Better hope said troop doesn't get removed in response and you go -1. -1 removal is bad kids.

Immortal Decree: 6 cost card to answer a 2 cost card? Please.

Polymorph Dingler: ^ except 5

Terrible Transfer: ^

Atrophy: Please don't tell me I have to explain why this card isn't good removal under 90% of situations.

And those are the only quick actions listed. You really misunderstood my post, because "85%" of those cards aren't bolded for any reason other than the fact that they aren't quick actions.

Jeevus
01-27-2015, 09:38 AM
The problem is the mirror knight.Not gorefeast.The rest is OK to deal with even if irritating with the combination of agro and control.

At least one person understands the problem.

Let me make it more blunt: What happens if i can get a CMK resolved and can play a falconer/Cloud? I, as the opposing player, have to deal with the board. So either extinction, heatwave or similar wipes. Bottom line? I got rid of his board, he drew at least 3 cards off of that and end of story? I traded my turn for exactly nothing. He didn't lose any card advantage whereas i had to use a mass removal to make sure i won't die to gore feast or simple beatdown to the face.

gore Feast is a good card, but not the problem at hand. It's CMK, simple as that.

TJTaylor
01-27-2015, 10:01 AM
I really don't understand these reactions to the meta. This is how every TCG has worked since their creation and it really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone but people new to the genre. Spend time trying to create the next winning deck instead of complaining about what is winning games now in the forums. Or join the dark side and play snore feast yourself.

Antfunk
01-27-2015, 10:08 AM
gore Feast is a good card, but not the problem at hand. It's CMK, simple as that.

This is the more valid point of the whole debate. Imo CMK would have been better as a 3 cost or maybe more due to it's inspire ability.

Personally I think the best way to counter such strats is to think up more powerful decks that means they need to worry about countering you as opposed to getting their winning combos out. A good defence is a good offence springs to mind here :)!

Struyk
01-27-2015, 10:09 AM
At least one person understands the problem.

Let me make it more blunt: What happens if i can get a CMK resolved and can play a falconer/Cloud? I, as the opposing player, have to deal with the board. So either extinction, heatwave or similar wipes. Bottom line? I got rid of his board, he drew at least 3 cards off of that and end of story? I traded my turn for exactly nothing. He didn't lose any card advantage whereas i had to use a mass removal to make sure i won't die to gore feast or simple beatdown to the face.

gore Feast is a good card, but not the problem at hand. It's CMK, simple as that.

But then again, Falconer -> Gorefeast is also broken, even if the Falconer dies... Or Storm Cloud -> Gorefeast or even Poca -> Gorefeast, all overpowered...

Gwaer
01-27-2015, 10:10 AM
TJTaylor summed up my thoughts on it perfectly.

Struyk
01-27-2015, 10:11 AM
I really don't understand these reactions to the meta. This is how every TCG has worked since their creation and it really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone but people new to the genre. Spend time trying to create the next winning deck instead of complaining about what is winning games now in the forums. Or join the dark side and play snore feast yourself.

With this is how every TCG has worked, you mean only MTG right? I know this is a 99% MTG clone but gamers evolve. Nobody wants to play vs the same deck 90% of their constructed games, NOBODY.

TJTaylor
01-27-2015, 10:14 AM
With this is how every TCG has worked, you mean only MTG right? I know this is a 99% MTG clone but gamers evolve. Nobody wants to play vs the same deck 90% of their constructed games, NOBODY.

No. I mean all TCGs. Every. Single. One. One to three decks float to the top of a meta. They are popular. They win games. People bitch about them and say the meta is boring. Then someone comes along and busts a cap in their proverbial asses with a new break through deck and the cycle repeats itself.

Gwaer
01-27-2015, 10:15 AM
No. He means every tcg, ever. A new set is released, the most reasonably priced powerful deck takes off. Usually an Aggro deck, once that's saturated a counter deck shows up, the meta evolves the cheap agggro deck starts falling out of favor, a new deck shows up to deal with the deck that dealt with the aggro deck. That is what 'meta' means in the meta. You have to play to the meta. That is what playing a tcg is about. Reading the decks you're likely to face, and creating a deck that beats them.

Grumph
01-27-2015, 10:15 AM
With this is how every TCG has worked, you mean only MTG right? I know this is a 99% MTG clone but gamers evolve. Nobody wants to play vs the same deck 90% of their constructed games, NOBODY.

I only played 1 gorefeast deck in the 2 VIP tournaments I played. I came across more super expensive Blood/Diamond mid-range(monsuun, aod, vamp king) than anything else. 90% is hardly accurate.

HomerSimpson
01-27-2015, 10:25 AM
With this is how every TCG has worked, you mean only MTG right? I know this is a 99% MTG clone but gamers evolve. Nobody wants to play vs the same deck 90% of their constructed games, NOBODY.

This for me, 600+ diff cards or whatever it is in the game yet 80% of constructed against the same deck is nonsensical.

I can see why people use it due to the low value, but to me that suggests the costs of getting a viable deck together is too high, there should be more viable options than one deck without spending a load

How many of you would want to reply a level on a Mario/Sonic game over and over and over? This is how playing constructed in any competitive environment is right now on hex as far as I'm concerned, zero diversity.

Thrawn
01-27-2015, 10:28 AM
This for me, 600+ diff cards or whatever it is in the game yet 80% of constructed against the same deck is nonsensical.

Source? Were the VIP deck lists released?

HomerSimpson
01-27-2015, 10:46 AM
Source? Were the VIP deck lists released?

I'm talking about my own experience, which granted isnt a huge amount and on the basis of this thread, I'm not the only one that can see the obvious that too many games are against the same deck.

As I said in the other thread, I have no issue with the strength of the deck and dont think its as bad as some are making out, It just making constructed incredibly boring playing against the same deck so much.

Jeevus
01-27-2015, 10:54 AM
But then again, Falconer -> Gorefeast is also broken, even if the Falconer dies... Or Storm Cloud -> Gorefeast or even Poca -> Gorefeast, all overpowered...

But those are all cards that can easily be answered. CMK can't. You can overextend all you want. As long as cmk is in play, you'll never lose card advantage. Even worse, with cloud and Falconer, you even get "bonus" cards. You have 0 downside. Thats not how a tcg is supposed to be. At least not for my understanding. It's risk <-> reward. Not reward -> reward.

Simple reason why you saw alot of B/D in vip is because they tried to think ahead of meta and beat gore feast. I played a B/W feral domination control and went 3-1. (with 3x drowned shrine mainboard even). The single game i lost was against gore feast (he simply had better draws, even with shrine. happens) . Other than that, i played vs b/d control, r/w midrange and another b/d control.

What i am trying to say is, even with all those supposedly anti-gore decks, it's astonishing how the deck is still a safe pick. And yes, i couldve played gore feast myself, but i tend to prefer playin my own brews, just for the fun.


So bottom line, if you can't force him out of card advantage AND at the same time clear the board, you are in trouble. You lose your removals one by one whereas your opponent draws cards over cards in the process.

Struyk
01-27-2015, 11:37 AM
But those are all cards that can easily be answered. CMK can't. You can overextend all you want. As long as cmk is in play, you'll never lose card advantage. Even worse, with cloud and Falconer, you even get "bonus" cards. You have 0 downside. Thats not how a tcg is supposed to be. At least not for my understanding. It's risk <-> reward. Not reward -> reward.

Simple reason why you saw alot of B/D in vip is because they tried to think ahead of meta and beat gore feast. I played a B/W feral domination control and went 3-1. (with 3x drowned shrine mainboard even). The single game i lost was against gore feast (he simply had better draws, even with shrine. happens) . Other than that, i played vs b/d control, r/w midrange and another b/d control.

What i am trying to say is, even with all those supposedly anti-gore decks, it's astonishing how the deck is still a safe pick. And yes, i couldve played gore feast myself, but i tend to prefer playin my own brews, just for the fun.


So bottom line, if you can't force him out of card advantage AND at the same time clear the board, you are in trouble. You lose your removals one by one whereas your opponent draws cards over cards in the process.

Which is why CMK needs to be banned...

plaguedealer
01-27-2015, 11:44 AM
Arguing with a guy that is calling this game a 99% magic clone, is not really helping imo. Either show proof that gorefeast is op through multiple test runs or just stop arguing with him.

funktion
01-27-2015, 12:02 PM
I find it funny how much people are badmouthing some of the very viable removal options out there. Meek has performed so well for me that I am considering main decking a third copy. Mirror Knight continues to be one of (if not the top) the strongest cards in the meta.

If you really believe that gore feast has a huge target over its head (I think it currently does) then you should have main deck / game one answers to its strongest cards. It isn't hard, it isn't impossible, but there are definitely people in here that refuse to adjust their play style / deck list accordingly. Stop being stubborn, the sky is not falling.

Saeijou
01-27-2015, 12:06 PM
@DataDragon: I summon you! :D

You could reveal the data, how many gorefeast decks were played and what the outcome was ;)

Zophie
01-27-2015, 12:07 PM
@DataDragon: I summon you! :D

You could reveal the data, how many gorefeast decks were played and what the outcome was ;)

They posted the undefeated decklists (https://hextcg.com/january-vip-constructed-decklists/) on the front page already, if that helps.

Rehab
01-27-2015, 12:13 PM
Which is why CMK needs to be banned...

CMK gets banned. Next constructed vip tournament," AoD/Vamp King/Monsuun is so OP, this meta is pay2win and boring."

Tazelbain
01-27-2015, 12:21 PM
Gratz to the 2 jank bot decks.

meowstef
01-27-2015, 12:28 PM
They posted the undefeated decklists (https://hextcg.com/january-vip-constructed-decklists/) on the front page already, if that helps.
sure but the number of defeated gorefeast decks is also good information
when i went into the vip i looked around for tier 1 decks and only realy found gorefeast i'm sure many people making their first steps into set 2 constructed also had no idea what to play so just grabbed the easy option

HomerSimpson
01-27-2015, 12:32 PM
21 of 37 of the unbeaten decks exactly the same more or less :D

Point proven I think

israel.kendall
01-27-2015, 12:32 PM
They posted the undefeated decklists (https://hextcg.com/january-vip-constructed-decklists/) on the front page already, if that helps.

Looks like a pretty good spread of decks to me. Even Jank Bots are represented here.

Thrawn
01-27-2015, 12:33 PM
21 of 37 of the unbeaten decks :D

Point proven I think

Yep, no where even close to the 80 or 90% you guys were crying. Hopefully you can drop it now.

Gwaer
01-27-2015, 12:34 PM
Yes, point proven, there are several viable decks even this early in the set 2 meta. The ruby cup should be interesting.

Struyk
01-27-2015, 12:40 PM
Did they put all the different decks on top on purpose so it looks like the game isnt fked up? Like there are 10 different ones and then like 30 times mirror knight LOL

I think I've proven my point here :S In a healthy game you wouldnt see the same decks getting used 70% of the time, more like 20% max :S And this is only the undefeated decklist, don't want to know how many other mirror knight decks there were :s

Gwaer
01-27-2015, 12:45 PM
The only point you've proven is how little you understand a healthy tcg meta.

parogui
01-27-2015, 12:48 PM
And as expected, numbers come out and when the naysayers get proved wrong they seek other excuses. Any good player in VIP prepared to have a favorable matchup against gorefeast decks, which includes winning the mirror match if you decide to run it. That's how a competitive scene works.

Xexist
01-27-2015, 12:52 PM
And this is only the undefeated decklist, don't want to know how many other mirror knight decks there were :s

Wait I dont get it. How is this super OP card able to show up in LOSING decks?

Vorpal
01-27-2015, 12:55 PM
Turns out the number of unbeaten gorefeast decks is much closer to 50% than the 80% everyone was complaining about.

The cheap effective aggro deck comprising around half the decks in the meta is nothing new for ccgs and is not a problem.

Warrender
01-27-2015, 12:57 PM
I wonder if they counted the Jankbot decks as Gorefeast decks in that 50% because that would just be LOL.

HomerSimpson
01-27-2015, 12:58 PM
The only point you've proven is how little you understand a healthy tcg meta.

If you think part of the game being so repetitive that it puts people of playing it is healthy then you are completely delusional.


Yep, no where even close to the 80 or 90% you guys were crying. Hopefully you can drop it now.

Not really? As I have said 80% was from my own personal experience, Its still far more used than any other deck there and unfortunately we dont have access to the full data, only those that went 4-0, the fact that its in over half of those deck is plenty enough evidence that is overused though.

Again, would you enjoy playing the same level over and over and over again on a game? Or listening to the same song play on repeat 100 times over? Same applies.

Fair enough if you enjoy repetitive things, you are entitled to have your own taste, but the vast majority of people dont want to continually do the same thing over and over again.

Thrawn
01-27-2015, 12:59 PM
Fair enough if you enjoy repetitive things, you are entitled to have your own taste, but the vast majority of people dont want to continually do the same thing over and over again.

You can try to spin it however you want. The actual numbers were released and you were proven to be wrong.

HomerSimpson
01-27-2015, 01:02 PM
You can try to spin it however you want. The actual numbers were released and you were proven to be wrong.

How was I proven wrong? I said my own experience had been 80%, how does showing which decks went 4-0 have any reflection on my personal experience?

Do you not think 21 of 37 still a large amount to be using the same deck?

ossuary
01-27-2015, 01:05 PM
Only 15 of the 37 undefeated decks were "Gore Knight" derivatives (or carbon copies of CloudFeast). I'm not counting the two successful Jankbot decks in there, because there was WAY more going on in those decks than just CMK into Gore Feast.

So of the supposed "80% of all decks played" being Gore Knights, they only had a 40.5% representation in the undefeated list. Sounds like pretty crappy performance to me, compared to the other staple decks. DB control had just about the same representation, with (based on the "80%" supposition) far fewer total decks entered, and more variety from deck to deck.

Biz
01-27-2015, 01:09 PM
gorefeast isn't even strong without overpowered supporting cards. there are enough ways to kill troops or put blockers on the field to balance the risk of having a dead card (or multiple copies of it) when you aren't ahead on board

the real broken cards are aod / bucc / cmk

waiting many months for the possibility that answers might be introduced with a new set is kind of a long time, especially when set 2 didn't really have them

Vorpal
01-27-2015, 01:10 PM
Yeah, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the cheap aggro deck having 40% representation.

The only thing that makes me sad about those undefeated lists is that they contained no tri shard humans. Probably need even a little more fixing still for them.

israel.kendall
01-27-2015, 01:12 PM
The deck lists show that a variety of decks can be competitive, even jank bot. All the people running gore knight style decks chose that for themselves for their own reasons, whether it pure netdecking or building off of this proven concept. That is their prerogative. But there is proof here that other creative decks can compete.

ossuary
01-27-2015, 01:17 PM
Yeah, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the cheap aggro deck having 40% representation.

The only thing that makes me sad about those undefeated lists is that they contained no tri shard humans. Probably need even a little more fixing still for them.

I don't think it's the fixing so much as the fact that other variants are faster. Diamond got almost all of the "powered up" human troops, but honestly there's no real reason to run those troops outside of limited, because other combos are just better. Diamond doesn't have multi-troops aside from Gabriel, which at 6 cost is way to high to play quickly. Sapphire and Ruby both have very cheap options for multi-troops (and more than one option each to boot), so they're stronger in a situation where both speed and board presence are required. Diamond doesn't really bring anything solid to the aggro playstyle at this point.

In reality, none of the tribes are strong enough to be T1 on their own. The strongest decks are still built around specific cards (CMK + Feast + Falcon/Cloud, or TwoPact, or AoD/Vamp + Soul Marble + Pact), rather than a troop type. It will probably take at least another 1-2 sets before you will see more than 1 random lucky or surprising human, orc, shin'hare etc. deck on the undefeated list.

Tazelbain
01-27-2015, 01:19 PM
Metacalypse averted.

Vorpal
01-27-2015, 01:25 PM
Diamond seems to use swiftstrike rather than multiple troops, which works ok in limited but not in removal heavy constructed.

I would really like to see tri shard humans work, though!

ossuary
01-27-2015, 01:30 PM
I would really like to see tri shard humans work, though!

It will, someday. :)

israel.kendall
01-27-2015, 01:42 PM
Diamond doesn't have multi-troops aside from Gabriel, which at 6 cost is way to high to play quickly.


Don't forget the bear lady!

Tazelbain
01-27-2015, 01:45 PM
What no love for turtles?

poizonous
01-27-2015, 01:57 PM
Wanna see Tri Shard humans work, check out my birthday stream, running Shimmering Lights in constructed queues

Jensling
01-27-2015, 02:13 PM
Did they put all the different decks on top on purpose so it looks like the game isnt fked up? Like there are 10 different ones and then like 30 times mirror knight LOL

I think I've proven my point here :S In a healthy game you wouldnt see the same decks getting used 70% of the time, more like 20% max :S And this is only the undefeated decklist, don't want to know how many other mirror knight decks there were :s

man I remember RDW in MtG around Lorwyn (Standard), RDW archetype was more than 75% of every tournament, Figure of Destiny was in every red deck ever, and noone really complained about it.

This is nothing compared to that.

Xexist
01-27-2015, 02:24 PM
What no love for turtles?

Oh man. What we need is a race of Turtles! like an opposing faction to the shin hare. Ninja turtles perhaps?

RCDv57
01-27-2015, 02:34 PM
Oh man. What we need is a race of Turtles! like an opposing faction to the shin hare. Ninja turtles perhaps?

I thought that the Coyotle were the rivals to the shin'hare.

I mean we've got;
Humans vs Necrotic,
Dwarf vs Elfs,
Orcs vs Vennon.

That kinda seems like the turtles would be a third wheel.
I wouldn't mind seeing some Pirate frogs to be the Turtles rivals thou.

israel.kendall
01-27-2015, 02:57 PM
Perhaps the best solution may be dinosaur turtles.

plaguedealer
01-27-2015, 03:02 PM
Turtles v shroomsaw

Zubrin
01-27-2015, 03:16 PM
Jank. Feast.

theradol
01-27-2015, 03:29 PM
I wrote a blog post about this right after the kickstarter on metagames and their definition. I never continued this blog but this should answer the question. https://hextcgblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/what-is-a-metagame-aka-why-card-previews-arent-worth-doing-til-a-full-spoiler/

to quote my definition of meta written in june 2013-
Cards are only strong relative to other cards. How good is a card that does nothing but destroy an artifact? It depends on how strong artifact cards are. This is how the metagame is established. After all the cards are evaluated, people normally will find a couple cards seem to be stronger then any other. These cards will either become the main weapon, or the main target, for every competitive deck built. Then, after a bit of time, a few of these decks will win enough that they become the dominant deck types and the most popular. At that point, people will attempt to build new decks that can defeat these popular dominant decks. If they are successful, then the next deck builders will attempt to beat those newly successful decks. Normally, they end up with a pool of 4 or 5 popular decks that each have good matchups and bad matchups within each other, but close to the same win ratios.

So yeah, hex is currently doing exactly what i said is supposed to happen two years ago. Any of you people who don't know that tcgs work like this...well i can see where you might not want to play constructed, however, this is really how healthy tcgs work.

Zophie
01-27-2015, 03:43 PM
Meta is as Meta does

KingGabriel
01-27-2015, 03:52 PM
My mono diamond counters goreclouds very effectively imo, if everyone wants to pick the same deck making it easier to build directly against it, that's fine with me. :D

PureVapes
01-27-2015, 04:01 PM
I'm surprised by the diversity of the 4-0 decks considering there are only 2 sets in existence. Aside from the two Jank Bot decks (!!), a cursory look at main deck inclusions that surprised me were 4x Thunderbird (twice!), 4x Droo's Colossal Walker (twice!), 4x Citadel of Adamanth, 4x Ozawa, 4x Paladin of the Necropolis (twice), 4x Fierce Warlord, 4x Hex Geode (in mono-ruby), 4x Subtle Striker, 4x Giant Mosquito, 3x Adamanthian Scrivener, and 3x Dandelion Sprite.

Thanks CZE for making such a diverse metagame in just two sets, it's quite impressive!

Struyk
01-27-2015, 04:10 PM
I'm surprised by the diversity of the 4-0 decks considering there are only 2 sets in existence. Aside from the two Jank Bot decks (!!), a cursory look at main deck inclusions that surprised me were 4x Thunderbird (twice!), 4x Droo's Colossal Walker (twice!), 4x Citadel of Adamanth, 4x Ozawa, 4x Paladin of the Necropolis (twice), 4x Fierce Warlord, 4x Hex Geode (in mono-ruby), 4x Subtle Striker, 4x Giant Mosquito, 3x Adamanthian Scrivener, and 3x Dandelion Sprite.

Thanks CZE for making such a diverse metagame in just two sets, it's quite impressive!

Yes out of the like 700 cards we actually saw like 80 different ones!

Zophie
01-27-2015, 04:10 PM
My mono diamond counters goreclouds very effectively imo, if everyone wants to pick the same deck making it easier to build directly against it, that's fine with me. :D

I might have to compare notes with you some time if I catch you in chat, I also enjoy mono diamond but it could use some tweaking for sure.

Turtlewing
01-27-2015, 04:19 PM
I thought that the Coyotle were the rivals to the shin'hare.

I mean we've got;
Humans vs Necrotic,
Dwarf vs Elfs,
Orcs vs Vennon.

That kinda seems like the turtles would be a third wheel.
I wouldn't mind seeing some Pirate frogs to be the Turtles rivals thou.

The turtles could be their own opposites Ninja Tortoises vs Pirate Sea Turtles

Svenn
01-27-2015, 04:24 PM
Yes out of the like 700 cards we actually saw like 80 different ones!

First of all, there are 589. Second, what are you expecting to see? All 589 cards used in winning decks? That's not how it works. There are a bunch of filler cards, a bunch of cards that are great in limited but suck in constructed, and a bunch of just constructed power cards.

Also, read back up on how the meta works. People flock to the flavor of the month.

Struyk
01-27-2015, 04:31 PM
First of all, there are 589. Second, what are you expecting to see? All 589 cards used in winning decks? That's not how it works. There are a bunch of filler cards, a bunch of cards that are great in limited but suck in constructed, and a bunch of just constructed power cards.

Also, read back up on how the meta works. People flock to the flavor of the month.

I expect every rare and up to be playable, or there are some balancing issues. And with playable I mean in either draft or constructed... Just poor balancing / testing I guesse? Why would you even want to spend money on designing a card while nobody will ever use it?

israel.kendall
01-27-2015, 04:34 PM
What about a deck being 95%+ set 1 cards and going 4-0 in VIP? In b4 ban set1.

Struyk
01-27-2015, 04:37 PM
What about a deck being 95%+ set 1 cards and going 4-0 in VIP? In b4 ban set1.

Even 100% set 1 should be easy, especially since gore feast, falconer and mirror knight are set 1 :D... I'd even say that pretty much any deck can go 4-0 in VIP, as long as you get really luck... If enemy gets flooded or screwed you can win really easly :D

israel.kendall
01-27-2015, 04:41 PM
Even 100% set 1 should be easy, especially since gore feast, falconer and mirror knight are set 1 :D... I'd even say that pretty much any deck can go 4-0 in VIP, as long as you get really luck... If enemy gets flooded or screwed you can win really easly :D

Yes, but I think the majority of cards you have wanted to ban have been set1. Perhaps the set itself is just OP and should be banned altogether. 2-2-2 drafting was pretty fun after all.

Struyk
01-27-2015, 04:45 PM
Yes, but I think the majority of cards you have wanted to ban have been set1. Perhaps the set itself is just OP and should be banned altogether. 2-2-2 drafting was pretty fun after all.

I think the majority is set1 because those are going for alot cheaper compared to set 02 cards and vampire king and angel of down halved in price for example. Soon all prices will drop again like they did in set 01 before set 02 released and we will see alot more monsoon / wrathwood master moss decks. Right now only the really rich people play with those elite pay2getadvantageoverpoorpeople cards :)

Falaris
01-27-2015, 04:51 PM
I expect every rare and up to be playable, or there are some balancing issues. And with playable I mean in either draft or constructed... Just poor balancing / testing I guesse? Why would you even want to spend money on designing a card while nobody will ever use it?

Then you are either new or terrible at card games. You know literally nothing about how a TCG/CCG works

Zophie
01-27-2015, 04:51 PM
Why would you even want to spend money on designing a card while nobody will ever use it?

Because having lots of options available is what makes the game such a great sandbox to play with, especially over time. So a certain card doesn't see a lot of play in the meta right away, so what? That only means no one has found a great use for it yet, doesn't mean a great use for it doesn't exist. Someone might want to try out a niche idea they came up with and that unpopular card might be exactly what they were looking for. Some people might go out of their way to use the least popular cards to try to find that hidden combo no one has discovered yet. Maybe that card ends up being amazing in PVE combos down the road, or some amazing deck with cards from the first 5 sets.

PureVapes
01-27-2015, 04:57 PM
I expect every rare and up to be playable, or there are some balancing issues. And with playable I mean in either draft or constructed... Just poor balancing / testing I guesse? Why would you even want to spend money on designing a card while nobody will ever use it?

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr5
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/164
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/218
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr185

Anyone is welcome to educate themselves on card design!

israel.kendall
01-27-2015, 05:03 PM
Because having lots of options available is what makes the game such a great sandbox to play with, especially over time. So a certain card doesn't see a lot of play in the meta right away, so what? That only means no one has found a great use for it yet, doesn't mean a great use for it doesn't exist. Someone might want to try out a niche idea they came up with and that unpopular card might be exactly what they were looking for. Some people might go out of their way to use the least popular cards to try to find that hidden combo no one has discovered yet. Maybe that card ends up being amazing in PVE combos down the road, or some amazing deck with cards from the first 5 sets.

Exactly this. I have seen people do really neat things with cheapo rarely played cards like dopplegadget for example.

Xexist
01-27-2015, 05:27 PM
Then you are either new or terrible at card games. You know literally nothing about how a TCG/CCG works

Sorry but thats just not true. He is one of the best players ever and is top 5 ranked in every card game in existance. He even has a lifetime achievement award from playing Old Maid. He is also numero uno at that one card game with the numbers and the colours on the cards, I dont recall what its called.

magic_gazz
01-27-2015, 05:36 PM
I expect every rare and up to be playable, or there are some balancing issues. And with playable I mean in either draft or constructed... Just poor balancing / testing I guesse? Why would you even want to spend money on designing a card while nobody will ever use it?

Can we ban this guy for just being a massive troll?

He claimed the other day to be good at all TCGs and be an amazing player, yet he has no idea what a meta game is and does not understand card design.

If he is a TCG pro he should know that most cards do not get used in competitive play.

Zophie
01-27-2015, 05:41 PM
In case anyone is wondering, you can ignore other users by clicking on their name, then "View Profile", and then "Add to Ignore List". I try to use this very sparingly but it can come in handy on occasion.

meowstef
01-27-2015, 05:54 PM
In case anyone is wondering, you can ignore other users by clicking on their name, then "View Profile", and then "Add to Ignore List". I try to use this very sparingly but it can come in handy on occasion.

thanks for that i was thinking of asking about that in this thread for no good reason

Yoda
01-27-2015, 06:31 PM
The lack of combo decks makes me sad :(

Also, Gore Feast in almost every deck is not fun. More variety = More fun!

33.33% Aggro, 33.33% Control, 33.33% Combo ---> Perfect Meta!

Malakili
01-27-2015, 07:07 PM
I expect every rare and up to be playable, or there are some balancing issues. And with playable I mean in either draft or constructed... Just poor balancing / testing I guesse? Why would you even want to spend money on designing a card while nobody will ever use it?
A lot of rates will be situational and if there situation isn't in the meta it won't see much play. Cards are good relative t each other. We are dealing with a very small card pool still.

Werlix
01-27-2015, 07:08 PM
I think I've proven my point here :S In a healthy game you wouldnt see the same decks getting used 70% of the time, more like 20% max :S



Do you not think 21 of 37 still a large amount to be using the same deck?

There are 15/37 Ruby / Sapphire "Gore Knight" decks that went 4-0. So like 40.5%... doesn't seem so bad to me especially considering the cost of the deck probably increases the number of people that play it

Malakili
01-27-2015, 07:16 PM
It is a fairly substantial number. I mean we have all seen worse. But its not amazing either. Especially because there aren't a lot of decks that actually do things right now and are competitive.

Malicus
01-27-2015, 07:22 PM
The strength of the deck isn't just on how well it did but also how representative it was of the entire field. If 90% of people played gorefeast and only 42% of the winners were gorefeast that deck isn't amazing. Not suggesting that is the number but knowing the field would make the numbers more interesting.

Saeijou
01-27-2015, 07:51 PM
The strength of the deck isn't just on how well it did but also how representative it was of the entire field. If 90% of people played gorefeast and only 42% of the winners were gorefeast that deck isn't amazing. Not suggesting that is the number but knowing the field would make the numbers more interesting.

and exactly that is, what we need datadragon for :)

BenStoll
01-27-2015, 08:30 PM
Hey all--

Just wanted to chime in with a few thoughts of my own, many of which echo those of other posters.

-One of the big things is that it is still very early in the set 2 metagame. There simply hasn't been a ton of time for players to innovate new decks and to respond to currently dominant decks, setting in motion the "metagame cycles" mentioned in other posts. It is pretty natural that one of the first go-to places is going to be modding a powerful aggro deck from the set 1 meta. Additionally, a lot of the most obviously powerful cards (the cards that tend to be powerful on their own and appear powerful upon first read, rather than subtly powerful based on easy to miss context with other cards in the file) have been clearly identified by the players, but give it a little time for more to be discovered.

-There are certain things that can skew the appearance of the metagame, or make it appear as though there is a problem when there isn't one, or that the problem is exacerbated.
I grant you that GoreKnights is a very good deck, but most of its success is due to Future and his team rather than it being so much better than any other option. Future's team are all highly skilled players, and they would have likely still swept Oberon's top 8 piloting another deck. I don't want to speak as the validity or not of this specific example because I don't exactly know Future and his team, but this sort of thing does happen all the time in competitive gaming. The strongest competitors in communities often team up, and often end up building the same deck, and often end up performing well as a team with that deck.

-CMK is certainly very powerful, but it was added to Set 1 to address other stuff that we felt was too dominant in the meta during testing. I'm not saying we did everything absolutely perfectly, but remember that it is easy to see and comment on the world in which CMK exists, harder to analyze the world without CMK without actually seeing it exist.

-Many cards are designed for reasons other than to be a part of competitive play and the tier 1 constructed metagame. Consider the simple example of a card that might delight casual players, but has a heavy luck element that would irritate competitive players if it were powerful enough to tread on the impact that they want skill to have on the outcome of the game. This is why Minotaur Mercenary is at a low power level, for example.

-As has been pointed out, our metagame is only two sets deep right now, and it will eventually consistently be more sets deep. Although some metagame fixtures or build-arounds sort of come out and don't get built upon (Gorefeast is essentially a stand-alone card), you can imagine the trouble we might be in if set 1 constructed was dominated by all racial decks, which are designed to get a progressively deeper card pool over multiple sets. How would we print more powerful cards for those races in the upcoming sets?

-Sorry if there wasn't too much in there that hasn't been said; most of the salient points and perspectives on this issue have been covered and discussed in the thread already. Just wanted to let people know where I stand on a couple things and offer some internal perspective!

Xexist
01-27-2015, 08:40 PM
^Love you buddy

KingGabriel
01-27-2015, 08:47 PM
I agree with Stoll (if that IS the real Ben Stoll :P), we are way too early into set 2 for the best decks to come to light (My deck is Tier 1 though, obviously ;p)

Fun fact: I nearly renamed myself LordBenjamin instead of this in alpha as my IRL name is Ben too :)

Jeevus
01-27-2015, 08:54 PM
Hey all--

Just wanted to chime in with a few thoughts of my own, many of which echo those of other posters.

-One of the big things is that it is still very early in the set 2 metagame. There simply hasn't been a ton of time for players to innovate new decks and to respond to currently dominant decks, setting in motion the "metagame cycles" mentioned in other posts. It is pretty natural that one of the first go-to places is going to be modding a powerful aggro deck from the set 1 meta. Additionally, a lot of the most obviously powerful cards (the cards that tend to be powerful on their own and appear powerful upon first read, rather than subtly powerful based on easy to miss context with other cards in the file) have been clearly identified by the players, but give it a little time for more to be discovered.

-There are certain things that can skew the appearance of the metagame, or make it appear as though there is a problem when there isn't one, or that the problem is exacerbated. I don't want to speak as the validity or not of this specific example because I don't exactly know Future and his team, but this sort of thing does happen all the time in competitive gaming. The strongest competitors in communities often team up, and often end up building the same deck, and often end up performing well as a team with that deck.

-CMK is certainly very powerful, but it was added to Set 1 to address other stuff that we felt was too dominant in the meta during testing. I'm not saying we did everything absolutely perfectly, but remember that it is easy to see and comment on the world in which CMK exists, harder to analyze the world without CMK without actually seeing it exist.

-Many cards are designed for reasons other than to be a part of competitive play and the tier 1 constructed metagame. Consider the simple example of a card that might delight casual players, but has a heavy luck element that would irritate competitive players if it were powerful enough to tread on the impact that they want skill to have on the outcome of the game. This is why Minotaur Mercenary is at a low power level, for example.

-As has been pointed out, our metagame is only two sets deep right now, and it will eventually consistently be more sets deep. Although some metagame fixtures or build-arounds sort of come out and don't get built upon (Gorefeast is essentially a stand-alone card), you can imagine the trouble we might be in if set 1 constructed was dominated by all racial decks, which are designed to get a progressively deeper card pool over multiple sets. How would we print more powerful cards for those races in the upcoming sets?

-Sorry if there wasn't too much in there that hasn't been said; most of the salient points and perspectives on this issue have been covered and discussed in the thread already. Just wanted to let people know where I stand on a couple things and offer some internal perspective!

I am not against cmk per se. I have a problem with it's cost vs power level. Like i said in an earlier post, there is (not as far as i can recall right now) no other card in the game that is that disruptive. Yes, it is only 2 sets into the game, and yet we have a card that you have a hard time handling (lack of cost efficient removal for that purpose) when it enters play, even though you HAVE to deal with it, unless you want to lose card advantage right away.

Like funktion already pointed out, meek is the only "off-color" (not ruby or sapphire, apart from sappers charge) removal for cmk's. And i go even as far as playing 4 meeks mainboard. Even though the card has a sideboard-feeling to it, it's clearly good enough to run multiples mainboard, just to handle a handful of threats you cannot otherwise. That should state, or at least give a hint how important card and board advantage is.


You might think 40% is not much, but you didn't count in all the decks piloting cmk. (cuz thats the issue, not gore feast as a deck by its own). Now add up that the vip meta was dominated by those decks even though you see that almost every other deck in the 4-0 area was built to counter gore. And at that point 40% do is a fairly good number.

You just don't know who was matched against whom, how draws looked like and so forth. (Like i siad in my case, i had only 1 gore as opponent). So everything is debatable.


And let's not forget, cmk was never "out of meta". There is a reason for that.

p.s.: you did do a grat job with both sets, cmk is pretty much the only card i can't agree with. Even less when you printed cute little storm clouds as if cmk just waited for that (btw i love storm cloud, don't you even dare touchin it ^_^).

Yoda
01-27-2015, 09:24 PM
p.s.: you did do a grat job with both sets, cmk is pretty much the only card i can't agree with.

Really? What about Angel of Dawn? the most unfair card in the game.

Xexist
01-27-2015, 09:28 PM
Really? What about Angel of Dawn? the most unfair card in the game.

lolol. yeah. totally.

israel.kendall
01-27-2015, 10:00 PM
AoD can force you to overextend when you really do not want to. This is a big drawback that completely puts her in balance Imo.

Mr.Funsocks
01-27-2015, 10:47 PM
I never had a problem with CMK. The only thing that ever beat me that I saw more than once was Gore Feast. Any deck with Gore Feast never beat me, except by playing Gore Feast. Even if I destroyed the CMKs the moment they came out, and was soundly beating them, had card advantage and control of the board, and was untouched, a 2-3 turn streak where they got the right 3 cards, and Gore Feast, and I was dead. Not sure if Gore Feast is overpowered or not, but it sure as hell is the only thing any of the decks in the undefeated list had that was actually a threat, and it has already had like 6 distinct decks appear in the meta as undefeated. Whether that means it needs a nerf or not, I don't know, but there's clearly an issue there.

Malakili
01-28-2015, 07:50 AM
It's just a good deck. It's powerful and resilient. It isn't broken, there don't need to be bans (and obviously no nerfing since they aren't nerfing cards). It's just the result of a meta based on a limited card pool. Can we move on?

Sonicrain
01-28-2015, 12:58 PM
I dont always post in a thread, but when I do, it's because I like to add gaz to the fire.

I share the same opinion as many and for a LONG time as well. I've been saying since set 1 that gore was op. and it is.
This is why ive left Constructed play for drafting only and im actually having fun. drafting is fun in set 2 but im drifting away from the main focus now.

I dont see the goredeck leaving anytime soon. Theres barely any cards to deal with a turn 4-5 kill except for some subpar removal.
I am honestly suprised to have not seen more control decks tho. do they lose this badly to gore?

Also, the goredeck might have been from the influx of new player since the deck is fairly cheap to make for free wins.
The stats dont lie tho, both cards are in 60% of the decks. I dont really remember my MTG days but I dont recall this stale of a meta.

I found this from last weekends http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=1&start_date=2015-01-24&end_date=2015-01-24&event_ID=19&city=Washington&state=DC&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&start_num=0&limit=8

Gorefeast isnt on Edwin Van cleef's level (from WoW TCG) but it's damn close I believe, kinda :p

All in all, my general feeling is the following. Set 1 and Set 2 feel like they are throwing a bunch of cards with random functionality to pave the way for future sets which will have more coherence, mechanics and lore together. Set 2 felt a bit better with the whole human vs dwarf vs shinhare stuff but still... This feels like its a big test to set up cards and it is. It's a beta after all :)

I can't wait to see what future sets will have tho. Shoutouts to my orcs who receive NO love.

PureVapes
01-28-2015, 01:25 PM
Those tournament decks have 6 sets to draw from, not 2. The number of possible decks increases nearly exponentially as the number of usable cards increases.

Thrawn
01-28-2015, 01:28 PM
I found this from last weekends http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=1&start_date=2015-01-24&end_date=2015-01-24&event_ID=19&city=Washington&state=DC&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&start_num=0&limit=8
.

Magic Standard is also pulling for 6 sets of cards compared to our current 2.

*edit* Beaten!

HomerSimpson
01-28-2015, 01:28 PM
Only being 2 sets in is not an excuse for a unbalanced game. Every set should be balanced and varied on its own.

Thrawn
01-28-2015, 01:29 PM
Only being 2 sets in is not an excuse for a unbalanced game. Every set should be balanced and varied on its own.


Agreed. Thankfully the game is not currently unbalanced.

magic_gazz
01-28-2015, 01:30 PM
Not sure quoting last weeks results is a good example and ignoring all the times there have been 6 or 7 of the same deck in the top 8.

CawBlade says hi

HomerSimpson
01-28-2015, 01:33 PM
Agreed. Thankfully the game is not currently unbalanced.

We have very different definitions of unbalanced.

One deck being used far more than anything else is a clear unbalance.

And extremely boring.

If things remain the same, all it will do is put people off constructed even more.

Thrawn
01-28-2015, 01:35 PM
One deck being used far more than anything else is a clear unbalance.

Incorrect, this has been explained many, many, many times already.

Werlix
01-28-2015, 01:44 PM
I share the same opinion as many and for a LONG time as well. I've been saying since set 1 that gore was op. and it is.

If you reread the thread you'll see that in fact many don't share your opinion. Most don't consider Gorefeast OP, they consider CMK OP.

Werlix
01-28-2015, 01:46 PM
We have very different definitions of unbalanced.

One deck being used far more than anything else is a clear unbalance.

And extremely boring.

If things remain the same, all it will do is put people off constructed even more.

No. One deck being played more than others indicates that it's popular, not necessarily unbalanced. If we are many more weeks/months into the format and all/most the top tournament results are one deck then yes, we have an issue with balance.

Boring, maybe for some, yes. Unbalanced? Too early to say.

israel.kendall
01-28-2015, 01:58 PM
Ban Set 1!!! 2-2-2 4Life.

Tazelbain
01-28-2015, 02:12 PM
Glad to know HexEnt isn't designing based on popularity polls.

HomerSimpson
01-28-2015, 02:23 PM
No. One deck being played more than others indicates that it's popular, not necessarily unbalanced. If we are many more weeks/months into the format and all/most the top tournament results are one deck then yes, we have an issue with balance.

Boring, maybe for some, yes. Unbalanced? Too early to say.

It was the same in the last VIP with set 1 only there was still a ton more gorefeast decks than anything else.

There is 500+ cards, one is being used much much more than the rest of them, that is the definition of an unbalance.


Incorrect, this has been explained many, many, many times already.

You disagreeing with something does not equate to being incorrect, you seem to have a rather large valuation of your own opinion.

I'd guess that 20 drafts or more fire for every 1 constructed that fires and you people think that has nothing to do with it being incredibly boring due to repetitiveness caused by this deck?

Sonicrain
01-28-2015, 02:46 PM
Those tournament decks have 6 sets to draw from, not 2. The number of possible decks increases nearly exponentially as the number of usable cards increases.

AH! right :) I forgot about that LOL! thats how rusty my MTG is <____________________<

regardless. its still how i feel but i am 100% it will get better so for now we have to tough it up.

will set 3-4 be cycling set 1-2 out of constructed? I dont even remember.

I assume 1-2-3-4 will be one and then 1-2 cycles ?

Zophie
01-28-2015, 02:49 PM
1-2 are the first block, 3-4 are the second block. They said it will be a while before they start cycling sets out of constructed though, probably not until after set 5 but it's way too early to predict.

Turtlewing
01-28-2015, 02:57 PM
There is 500+ cards, one is being used much much more than the rest of them, that is the definition of an unbalance.


No it isn't.

You can't conclude only from popularity if a card is actually over powered. With enough PR work I bet we could get 90% of 4/0 decks in the February VIP tournament to include Baby Yeti. That wouldn't make Baby Yeti overpowered or indicate any kind on imbalance in the game design of Hex.

HomerSimpson
01-28-2015, 03:18 PM
No it isn't.

You can't conclude only from popularity if a card is actually over powered. With enough PR work I bet we could get 90% of 4/0 decks in the February VIP tournament to include Baby Yeti. That wouldn't make Baby Yeti overpowered or indicate any kind on imbalance in the game design of Hex.

If things were balanced, they would be more varied and you could go a tournament without playing the same deck for most of the games (again based on my own experience).

Fairly simple logic really.

I dont think selling people more cards in future sets is an acceptable fix to a unbalance problem either tbf.

Tazelbain
01-28-2015, 03:20 PM
We don't know. They refuse to get specific. It'll probably be decision they make after more playtesting, like they did for 2-1-2 vs 2-2-1.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 03:41 PM
No it isn't.

You can't conclude only from popularity if a card is actually over powered. With enough PR work I bet we could get 90% of 4/0 decks in the February VIP tournament to include Baby Yeti. That wouldn't make Baby Yeti overpowered or indicate any kind on imbalance in the game design of Hex.

Just look at AH prices and you can already conclude if a card is overpowered or not. Every rare costing more than 200 plat is unbalanced and every legendary above 500 plat is unbalanced. Gorefeast is a bit cheaper because you get some for free. Set 01 is getting cheaper because more and more people get the cards they need while there are more set 01 cards coming in from drafts and sealed games so multiply those numbers by 1.5 for set 02 :)

Unbalanced card = high demand because people want to win VIP AA's by using unbalanced cards for easy wins = high price on auction house

I can't think of any other reason why a card would be expensive if it's not because it's unbalanced or AA :S It surely isn't because of the rarity!


If things were balanced, they would be more varied and you could go a tournament without playing the same deck for most of the games (again based on my own experience).

Fairly simple logic really.

I dont think selling people more cards in future sets is an acceptable fix to a unbalance problem either tbf.

Also what I'm afraid of, more sets to cover up the unbalance while still harvesting more cash. Instead of spending extra cash on testing, balance changes and proper card design to start with.

How can one design this mirror knight and not think that it's unbalanced? I don't even need to test it, something that gives such a huge card advantage with such a low cost and only 1 threshold can not be balanced, ever. We will see mirror knight in the next 500 sets because I don't think anything will be able to beat it out of the meta.

israel.kendall
01-28-2015, 03:45 PM
Just look at AH prices and you can already conclude if a card is overpowered or not. Every rare costing more than 200 plat is unbalanced and every legendary above 500 plat is unbalanced.

I concur. The power level of AA cards is just over the top. I am calling for an immediate end to this paytowin1%forgetpoorpeople shinanigans.

funktion
01-28-2015, 03:45 PM
We have very different definitions of unbalanced.

One deck being used far more than anything else is a clear unbalance.

And extremely boring.

If things remain the same, all it will do is put people off constructed even more.

There's a logical fallacy here though. We (the community) could get people to join tournaments with nothing but jankbot decks, or get encourage folks to join VIP with some kind of trash sliver of the immortal spear deck. Knowing this community's penchant for the odd, it would be surprising if some of those decks didn't go 4-0. That would not mean that anything was broken or unbalanced.

The reasons that people are playing goreknight based decks in masse are not strictly that it is one of the better decks.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 03:50 PM
There's a logical fallacy here though. We (the community) could get people to join tournaments with nothing but jankbot decks, or get encourage folks to join VIP with some kind of trash sliver of the immortal spear deck. Knowing this community's penchant for the odd, it would be surprising if some of those decks didn't go 4-0. That would not mean that anything was broken or unbalanced.

The reasons that people are playing goreknight based decks in masse are not strictly that it is one of the better decks.

Yeah they must be playing it because it's a fun to play deck RIGHT? Not because you can win 4000 platinum by winning 2 out of 4 matches so you will use the most unbalanced deck possible to maximize your win chances?! 60% of the people who went 4-0 used the mirror knight + gorefeast combo, which already says enough about the balance so please don't bother.

Turtlewing
01-28-2015, 03:53 PM
Just look at AH prices and you can already conclude if a card is overpowered or not. Every rare costing more than 200 plat is unbalanced and every legendary above 500 plat is unbalanced.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Malicus
01-28-2015, 03:56 PM
If things were balanced, they would be more varied and you could go a tournament without playing the same deck for most of the games (again based on my own experience).

Fairly simple logic really.

I dont think selling people more cards in future sets is an acceptable fix to a unbalance problem either tbf.

After looking at your point I think I have to concede that the game is unbalanced. Until we achieve perfect balance via 100% goreknight this problem will not go away.

funktion
01-28-2015, 03:56 PM
I wasn't ever saying goreknight was bad, just saying that:
a) there is in fact counterplay against it; granted knight into cloud can be pretty backbreaking
b) it is not the only viable deck that has a strong chance of winning

If a large % of the field is playing a specific deck, then it is likely that a large % of the winners will correlate so long as that deck is viable. That's the correlation you're seeing and mislabeling. Your understanding of balance and my understanding of balance are not the same, that is a given. So me "bothering" is somewhat moot in that it is unlikely you and I would be able to agree on a conclusion.

Turtlewing
01-28-2015, 04:00 PM
Yeah they must be playing it because it's a fun to play deck RIGHT? Not because you can win 4000 platinum by winning 2 out of 4 matches so you will use the most unbalanced deck possible to maximize your win chances?! 60% of the people who went 4-0 used the mirror knight + gorefeast combo, which already says enough about the balance so please don't bother.

No it doesn't.

If all strategies were equal and 60% of people chose to enter with that deck you'd expect 60% of 4/0 decks to be that deck strictly from the demographics of the tournament.

Further, that 40% of 4/0 decks weren't MK+Gorefest decks, proves there are other strategies that work fpr foing 4/0 in a VIP tournament.

It may be that MK + gorefest is the cheapest and or easiest tier 1 deck to assemble, so more people enter with it and therefore more people win with it. That would not indicate a game balance issue as there's no indication that the MK+Gorefest deck has any better chance of winning than any of the other tier 1 decks.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 04:03 PM
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

BALANCE

"In game design, balance is the concept and the practice of tuning a game's rules, usually with the goal of preventing any of its component systems from being ineffective or otherwise undesirable when compared to their peers. An unbalanced system represents wasted development resources at the very least, and at worst can undermine the game's entire ruleset by making important roles or tasks impossible to perform."

Preventing any of its component system from being ineffective or otherwise undesirable when compared to their peers.
Max 100 of the 500 cards are actually used in competative play and the rest is scrap, while the difference between the weakest and the strongest of those 100 is still HUGE. There is just no reason to use the other 400 when these 100 are clearly stronger.

An unbalanced system represents wasted development resources at the very least, and at worst can undermine the game's entire ruleset by making important roles or tasks impossible to perform."

Don't want to know how much money HexEnt wasted on designing, coding and testing the cards that will never get played and it surely undermines the game's ruleset when 90% uses the same few unbalanced cards to win.

I think we can close this topic now, can't explain it any better than this even with my poor english skills.


No it doesn't.

If all strategies were equal and 60% of people chose to enter with that deck you'd expect 60% of 4/0 decks to be that deck strictly from the demographics of the tournament.

Further, that 40% of 4/0 decks weren't MK+Gorefest decks, proves there are other strategies that work fpr foing 4/0 in a VIP tournament.

It may be that MK + gorefest is the cheapest and or easiest tier 1 deck to assemble, so more people enter with it and therefore more people win with it. That would not indicate a game balance issue as there's no indication that the MK+Gorefest deck has any better chance of winning than any of the other tier 1 decks.

Yup the other 30% were abusing angel of dawn and vampire king, 4% were using way different decks and the last 6% were wild shards ( 3 people actually managed to go 4-0 using wild shards, WHAT A MASSIVE AMOUNT! )

So we had about 3 different meta decks, this must be a new world record for card games.


Now let's look at Solforge for example!

Also has 500 cards.
Only a few rare+ cards that never get used
When you play constructed there are about 50 different meta decks you can encounter, if not more.
Cards still get balanced, luckly the new cards are all balanced and this rarely ever happens
The balancing is done really well, the cards with strong abilities have low attack / defence and some really strong cards can only be used in conjunction with some weaker cards

Erebus
01-28-2015, 04:05 PM
Yeah they must be playing it because it's a fun to play deck RIGHT? Not because you can win 4000 platinum by winning 2 out of 4 matches so you will use the most unbalanced deck possible to maximize your win chances?! 60% of the people who went 4-0 used the mirror knight + gorefeast combo, which already says enough about the balance so please don't bother.

Your math is wrong. 40% went 4-0 with Knight+gorefeast. And what percent of people in the VIP tournament ran the Goreknight deck? Probably more then 40%, I mean with all the doomsayers claiming the sky is falling, the lose price of the key cards (0 legendaries), and the relative ease of the deck to learn. Not to mention it's essential the same as the Set 1 deck, with only a few new cards splashed in. Heck one person won with a deck that was 100% Set 1 main deck and only adding 4 Verdicts sideboard.

It still early in this cycle to call shenanigans. I know how you feel when early in Set 1 you either played B/D control or you lost. Then Goreknight came in as a counter to that deck. That's how the Meta works. It's literally FOTM, and like most games with FOTMs eventually someone will call OP until the next FOTM comes and then that will become OP. Give it a bit, check the next couple large tournaments, if Goreknight is still on the top, maybe we come back to this. Just think what happens when either Gorefeast or CMK gets banned.

Gwaer
01-28-2015, 04:05 PM
Yes, lets please close this, so struyk will stop wasting our time. He can even have the last word, because it is clear as day from his response that he has no clue whatsoever what he is talking about. There's no reason to rebut him.

Erebus
01-28-2015, 04:07 PM
There's a few good articles out there for why "Bad cards exist".

Most of them come from limited play, or pleasing a certain crowd. Not every player in the game comes to win tournaments.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 04:16 PM
Your math is wrong. 40% went 4-0 with Knight+gorefeast. And what percent of people in the VIP tournament ran the Goreknight deck? Probably more then 40%, I mean with all the doomsayers claiming the sky is falling, the lose price of the key cards (0 legendaries), and the relative ease of the deck to learn. Not to mention it's essential the same as the Set 1 deck, with only a few new cards splashed in. Heck one person won with a deck that was 100% Set 1 main deck and only adding 4 Verdicts sideboard.

It still early in this cycle to call shenanigans. I know how you feel when early in Set 1 you either played B/D control or you lost. Then Goreknight came in as a counter to that deck. That's how the Meta works. It's literally FOTM, and like most games with FOTMs eventually someone will call OP until the next FOTM comes and then that will become OP. Give it a bit, check the next couple large tournaments, if Goreknight is still on the top, maybe we come back to this. Just think what happens when either Gorefeast or CMK gets banned.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40517

46% went gorefeast + mirror knight
56% went gorefeast
51% went mirror knight

which means a total of 61% used mirror knight and/or gorefeast
That's atleast 50% too high in a healthy balanced game.

I understand why bad cards exist, but 80% never gets used lol... If like 5% is made for limited play or as some kind of a token ( like darkspire enforcer ) then it would be sooo much better.

But the real problem here is that there are many cards that are sooo much better that you can't build a proper competative deck without them, reserving a high amount of card slots leaving little room for the other ~480 cards.

For example:
Xentoth Inquisitor
Gorefeast
Angel of Dawn
Burn
Extinction

Falaris
01-28-2015, 04:23 PM
Ban Shock

stiii
01-28-2015, 04:23 PM
I literally loled at burn being on that list.

magic_gazz
01-28-2015, 04:23 PM
The main reason (in my opinion) not to ban Mirror Knight is then people would be convinced that if they QQ enough then things will get banned, rather than things getting banned for the correct reasons.

There is also the fact that a lot of the people that complain about Mirror Knight complain about other cards too, making their opinions worth a lot less as they cant tell the difference between good cards and overpowered format warping cards.

Truth is Mirror Knight is the most powerful card in the format and I don't think that can be debated (at least not reasonably). The problem with Mirror Knight that other cards do not have is that it is hard to build a deck (with creatures) that would not want it.

Are you playing Sapphire and creatures - You want Mirror Knight

Are you playing mono colour with creatures - Add Saphphire and Mirror Knights

Are you playing 2 colours with creatures - Either add a 3rd colour (what you think all these dual shards are for) and Mirror Knight or cut one colour and replace with Sapphire and Mirror Knight. What are you running that is better than this? Probably nothing.

I don't think there are many if any decks that would not be better following the above plan and that is the sign of a format warping card.

Are there answers to Mirror Knight? Sure there are lots, but you had better have it and be able to cast it on time or you are far behind.


Having said all that, if only 50% of decks are playing it then it hasn't warped the format enough yet so leave it be. Or maybe the solution is not a card specific ban but a combo ban. You may not play Mirror Knight and Gorefeast in the same deck.


Note: If you think Vampire King and/or Angel of Dawn are on the same power level as Mirror Knight or are even close you are wrong, very wrong.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 04:24 PM
I literally loled at burn being on that list.

There's no reason not to put it in any ruby deck.

magic_gazz
01-28-2015, 04:28 PM
[QUOTE=Struyk;452544

Now let's look at Solforge for example!

Also has 500 cards.
Only a few rare+ cards that never get used
When you play constructed there are about 50 different meta decks you can encounter, if not more.
Cards still get balanced, luckly the new cards are all balanced and this rarely ever happens
The balancing is done really well, the cards with strong abilities have low attack / defence and some really strong cards can only be used in conjunction with some weaker cards[/QUOTE]

Please stop telling lies. There are people here who have played solforge and know the truth.

Tons of cards do not get used
There are nowhere near 50 meta decks, doubt there have been 50 in the life of the game
LOL. They nerf cards and then print new powerful cards

You know I didn't play solforge for ages, copied a brood queen deck and went 5-1 in the kickstarter event. I did not know how to play the deck, made mistakes and still went 5-1 because it was OP.

Stop lying to try and make it sound like you know what you are talking about because you will get caught out.

Note: Solforge does not really have a proper secondary market (no AH or trading), so nerfing cards is not really the same as doing it in a TCG.

Avaian
01-28-2015, 04:30 PM
Buccaneer was used in every undefeated deck that went sapphire. That is more than Mirror Knight.

People should complain about it for my entertainment.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 04:30 PM
The main reason (in my opinion) not to ban Mirror Knight is then people would be convinced that if they QQ enough then things will get banned, rather than things getting banned for the correct reasons.

There is also the fact that a lot of the people that complain about Mirror Knight complain about other cards too, making their opinions worth a lot less as they cant tell the difference between good cards and overpowered format warping cards.

Truth is Mirror Knight is the most powerful card in the format and I don't think that can be debated (at least not reasonably). The problem with Mirror Knight that other cards do not have is that it is hard to build a deck (with creatures) that would not want it.

Are you playing Sapphire and creatures - You want Mirror Knight

Are you playing mono colour with creatures - Add Saphphire and Mirror Knights

Are you playing 2 colours with creatures - Either add a 3rd colour (what you think all these dual shards are for) and Mirror Knight or cut one colour and replace with Sapphire and Mirror Knight. What are you running that is better than this? Probably nothing.

I don't think there are many if any decks that would not be better following the above plan and that is the sign of a format warping card.

Are there answers to Mirror Knight? Sure there are lots, but you had better have it and be able to cast it on time or you are far behind.


Having said all that, if only 50% of decks are playing it then it hasn't warped the format enough yet so leave it be. Or maybe the solution is not a card specific ban but a combo ban. You may not play Mirror Knight and Gorefeast in the same deck.


Note: If you think Vampire King and/or Angel of Dawn are on the same power level as Mirror Knight or are even close you are wrong, very wrong.

Well said, exactly how deck creation works right now LOL

But it's the same with Gorefeast

New Deck
Step 1 - Add Mirror Knight and Storm Cloud
Step 2 - Think about which other cards benefits the most from Mirror Knight? -> Add Falconer
Step 3 - Which cards works best with these 3 cards? -> Add Gorefeast
Step 4 - Add control spells and buccaneer
AND DONE!

I do think Angel of Dawn is close to Mirror Knight. If Mirror Knight is tier 1 then angel is tier 2 and vampire king tier 5.

Who doesn't like a free 4/4 flying steadfast creature with just 1 diamond threshold? I won countless games because of her, and I'm pretty sure KingGabriel would agree XD What makes her strong is that you can play her + another card in the same turn, which doesn't give card advantage but it does add alot of pressure on the field. If enemy has no answer then it's pretty much GG. Force enemy to play all their control spells on MK and Stormcloud then draw an angel and you pretty much won lol :D Just pretty weak in the current meta because of buccaneer and time ripple though as 60% plays sapphire -.-

magic_gazz
01-28-2015, 04:32 PM
I have had countless games where I have had to mull because of Angels clogging up my openers and a lot of the time it gets bounced and at full cost it is not very good.

I can see building a deck with Diamond that does not run Angels. So no, it is not close.

magic_gazz
01-28-2015, 04:34 PM
Strryk, if your issue was Mirror Knight or Gorefeast and Mirror Knight, I would be on your side (kind of, as I don't really care if it is banned or not).

The problem is that is not your only complaint and the other things you complain about detract from the one thing you are correct about.

Erebus
01-28-2015, 04:36 PM
I don't count the two Jank bot decks as "Goreknight".

And the mono-red agro decks ran Gorefeast, not a surprise. The other sapphire decks ran CMK, not surprised there. No one is saying they aren't good cards. I'd personally rather gorefeast not include rage, but it has it. But it's not hard to play around.

My point is that people know about these cards because of players like you that treat every strong card as a "sky is falling" scenario. So why wouldn't they play them.

The data on the number of players running this deck isn't available. So if you could prove that a minority played a deck and majority of the players that ran that deck won with it won 4-0 then I'd consider a ban. I'd be more interested in the win-loss record of this deck in the format. As a net-decked Tier 1 deck, I'd expect it to win 60-70% of matches against non-goreknight decks, if it's greater then that, perhaps it's an issue, and if it's less then that I'd call it a non-issue.

Looking at sectionalized data and calling it fact is wrong. We don't know the whole picture, and HexEnt has told us they are looking at the whole picture. They even have an entire article lauding their data gathering procedures for just this particular scenario. There is three possible outcomes:

A) The card is overpowered: In which case you'll see an immediate or eventual ban based on HOW overpowered it is.

B) The card is powerful: In which case you'll see cards in the next set designed to specifically counter it (I see verdict as an answer to B/D control cards and Gorefeast, and you can argue Shrine is a counter to CMK).

C) The power level is about right: Do nothing.

Ranting and raving about these cards with only partial knowledge isn't going to help things. We have to trust HexEnt to take actions to keep a healthy Meta. If we have to interact this violently to every issue, then there is really no point in HexEnt to continue PVP.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 04:39 PM
Strryk, if your issue was Mirror Knight or Gorefeast and Mirror Knight, I would be on your side (kind of, as I don't really care if it is banned or not).

The problem is that is not your only complaint and the other things you complain about detract from the one thing you are correct about.

I'm just saying that there's no reason not to add Angel of Dawn to any Diamond deck, it does clog up your starting hand, but most of the times when that happens I'm still happy that I got her instead of anything else when I play her. Don't forget that she would replace the 4 weakest cards in your deck so you should always use her. And she's still a good 5 drop being 4/4 with flying and steadfast. But yes she is pretty useless right now because 60% runs buccaneer and time ripple, but I'm looking at her as if she was played in a healthy meta lol XD Right now Diamond is just weak compared to CMK / Gorefeast especially because you can't use one of its strongest cards because of all the buccaneers and time ripples ( also, you still gain advantage if she gets bounced by time ripple as its -1 card for +1 cost as you didn't use resource to play it, normally it would be -1 card for -1 enemy turn and +1 cost )

Jensling
01-28-2015, 04:48 PM
By your definition of "healthy meta" no TCG ever has ever had one...

No TCG ever has had more than 10 decks or deck archetypes be "The deck to beat/play" in a single format at the same time, with roughly equal splits between them.

why? BECAUSE OF META.

Meta is defined as decks falling in and out of favour as responses to other decks in rotation: This will ALWAYS lead to 1-3 decks/archetypes being way more played than the others...

possible exception: L5R due to the story element of kotei tournaments literally meaning some people will rather play a worse version of a deck simply to have a chance at winning with their favorite faction rather than a competing one.

magic_gazz
01-28-2015, 04:48 PM
I'm just saying that there's no reason not to add Angel of Dawn to any Diamond deck, it does clog up your starting hand, but most of the times when that happens I'm still happy that I got her instead of my soul marble for example. She's still a good 5 drop beind 4/4 with flying and steadfast. But yes she is pretty useless right now because 60% runs buccaneer and time ripple, but I'm looking at her as if she was played in a healthy meta lol XD

There really is no helping you is there :(

It doesn't matter what the meta is, Angel is only really a problem when it comes down turn 2 or 3. That is a small percentage of games. The rest of the times it is just not that good.

By definition not even close to broken.

Antfunk
01-28-2015, 04:50 PM
Must suck to be you Stryuk. Can't beat Gore knight decks or win arguments on forums.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 04:54 PM
By your definition of "healthy meta" no TCG ever has ever had one...

No TCG ever has had more than 10 decks or deck archetypes be "The deck to beat/play" in a single format at the same time, with roughly equal splits between them.

why? BECAUSE OF META.

Meta is defined as decks falling in and out of favour as responses to other decks in rotation: This will ALWAYS lead to 1-3 decks/archetypes being way more played than the others...

possible exception: L5R due to the story element of kotei tournaments literally meaning some people will rather play a worse version of a deck simply to have a chance at winning with their favorite faction rather than a competing one.

I'm 100% sure Solforge has way more than 5, here are 5 on top of my head

Yeti ( Uranti Warlord )
Zombie ( Xrath, DreadKnight Of Varna / Zimus )
Dinosaur ( Bron, Wild Tamer )
Metamind ( Ghox )
Spirit Wanderers ( Ruthless Wanderer / Restless Wanderer )

Those are just 5 of them, I could tell you 10 more if I have to. I have played 100's of hours of solforge and still playing constructed tournaments every day to get my daily event tickets.


There really is no helping you is there :(

It doesn't matter what the meta is, Angel is only really a problem when it comes down turn 2 or 3. That is a small percentage of games. The rest of the times it is just not that good.

By definition not even close to broken.

I'm not saying she's broken, also doesn't need a ban or nerf anymore now set 02 released. I might have said so in the past but after last VIP tournament I won't bother going Diamond because my angel of dawn got sent back to my hand EVERY time I got her, atleast 6 times out of the 8 games I played. Well, that's what you get when 60% runs Buccaneer or Time Ripple lol :D BUT I really can't see any mono Diamond deck without her, there just aren't enough good cards to push her out of the deck.

israel.kendall
01-28-2015, 05:01 PM
Also we may start seeing more variety once double backs are introduced. People will want to get tourney trophies on their baby yetis for example.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 05:01 PM
Also we may start seeing more variety once double backs are introduced. People will want to get tourney trophies on their baby yetis for example.

Good point, this might help :) BUT we won't see baby yeties ( for example ) in VIP tournaments because the rewards are too big and will probably only grow bigger in the coming months as there will be less and less people joining them.

PS: Does anyone want to help me test my new tier 1 attempt deck? It's really cheap, doesn't use gorefeast and really strong, won 9/9 in proving grounds so far. I'm going to bed now, back in 8-10 hours.

Gwaer
01-28-2015, 05:05 PM
Having a baby yeti AA that won A VIP Tournament? Hah. I guarantee we'll see that =P

Ugh... Stop engaging him, you're just making me engage him. He is like trying to teach a child astrophysics... You can explain why we aren't on mars to them until you're blue in the face, but their answer will always just be 'build a ship and go there'.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 05:07 PM
Having a baby yeti AA that won A VIP Tournament? Hah. I guarantee we'll see that =P

My deck can actually use them, just because of Fierce Warlord :) Don't know what I would replace though as my deck is pretty solid right now.

16 resources, 8x 2 cost, 36x 1 cost :D

Having 6 cards on the field turn 3 is pretty awesome, almost impossible to defend against unless you have my one of my 2 nemesis cards, heatwave or extinction :D

My last enemy played 2x heatwave but my Droo's Unrelenting Fist still won the game haha

combatwombat
01-28-2015, 05:13 PM
Well I haven't read any of the 18 pages before this post... so... I'm as usual not in the off-topic ;)

Anyway... those who think Feast will win games for them, are right for now.
Those who think those decks are too strong... better focus on countering them.

I for one have lost my final to a feast deck but not because it was a feast deck... my deck eats feast on lunch and doesn't sweat much doing that... I lost my final to feast deck coz it was "bounce back" feast deck and my deck doesn't like being bounced back.

So unless everyone is going to make "bounce back" feast decks now, I'm good for next big constructed.

Everything can be countered, so can be feast. Since it can be countered it is not overpowered, since it's not overpowered, further discussion over how overpowered it is, is pointless.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 05:15 PM
Well I haven't read any of the 18 pages before this post... so... I'm as usual not in the off-topic ;)

Anyway... those who think Feast will win them games, are right for now.
Those who think those decks are too strong... better focus on countering them.

I for one have lost my final to a feast deck but not because it was a feast deck... my deck eats feast on lunch and doesn't sweat much doing that... I lost my final to feast deck coz it was "bounce back" feast deck and my deck doesn't like being bounced back.

So unless everyone is going to make "bounce back" feast decks now, I'm good for next big constructed.

Everything can be countered, so can be feast. Since it can be countered it is not overpowered, since it's not overpowered, further discussion over how overpowered it is, is pointless.

If you get forced to counter it, you can already call it overpowered.

Let's add a new card? 99 attack / 99 life, 1 cost, steadfast, lifedrain, flying and what not else. It's not overpowered because it can be countered! See what I mean?

combatwombat
01-28-2015, 05:15 PM
My deck is not forced to counter it... but it does. In fact my deck counters most decks xD

And it was made to do so.

Ju66ernaut
01-28-2015, 05:15 PM
Well I haven't read any of the 18 pages before this post... so... I'm as usual not in the off-topic ;)

Anyway... those who think Feast will win games for them, are right for now.
Those who think those decks are too strong... better focus on countering them.

I for one have lost my final to a feast deck but not because it was a feast deck... my deck eats feast on lunch and doesn't sweat much doing that... I lost my final to feast deck coz it was "bounce back" feast deck and my deck doesn't like being bounced back.

So unless everyone is going to make "bounce back" feast decks now, I'm good for next big constructed.

Everything can be countered, so can be feast. Since it can be countered it is not overpowered, since it's not overpowered, further discussion over how overpowered it is, is pointless.

Wombat, you can be my wingman anytime. Well put!

Struyk
01-28-2015, 05:18 PM
My deck is not forced to counter it... but it does. In fact my deck counters most decks xD

And it was made to do so.

Care to share? I think only mono sapphire control counters it properly by bouncing back the units and using verdict / countermagic on gorefeast.

combatwombat
01-28-2015, 05:22 PM
Care to share? I think only mono sapphire control counters it properly by bouncing back the units and using verdict / countermagic on gorefeast.

I use mono wild. Deck is weird, shouldn't work and generally hates being bounced back. My deck is called "The Age of Ape" and counters everything with Filk Apes. Because Filk Apes counter 89% of current meta. Combine them with Feral Domination, some Pucks, some Fists of Briggadon and Jadiims being buffed by Rootfathers and some proper addons, and you get a mix which can make most "careful" plans go "BOOM", while killing your opponent in process.

Only thing which my deck doesn't like is sapphire bounce back deck. So far haven't figured proper way of behavior but getting there.

Zophie
01-28-2015, 05:23 PM
If you get forced to counter it, you can already call it overpowered.

Let's add a new card? 99 attack / 99 life, 1 cost, steadfast, lifedrain, flying and what not else. It's not overpowered because it can be countered! See what I mean?

http://i.imgur.com/8x4Hi2Q.gif

combatwombat
01-28-2015, 05:25 PM
^ mmmm Jennifer Lawrence <3

Also... the 99/99 card thing... if you can murder it it's not OP :D

stiii
01-28-2015, 05:39 PM
As Struyk plays seemingly every digital TCG I wonder if he is on all of their forums complaining too.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 05:43 PM
As Struyk plays seemingly every digital TCG I wonder if he is on all of their forums complaining too.

Nop only here! I did play pretty much every tcg and ccg lol, also kickstarted many to come.

israel.kendall
01-28-2015, 05:49 PM
^ mmmm Jennifer Lawrence <3

Also... the 99/99 card thing... if you can murder it it's not OP :D

Its a 1 drop though, will kill you before you can play murder. But let's give it crush too OK.

Struyk
01-28-2015, 05:53 PM
Without crush you can block it turn 1!

Gwaer
01-28-2015, 05:56 PM
Building decks to counter popular decks is what the meta is. Anyone who plays tcg's knows that. The fact he still doesn't understand that after it has been spelled out for him should tell everyone everything they need to know.

Warrender
01-28-2015, 06:29 PM
Strryk, if your issue was Mirror Knight or Gorefeast and Mirror Knight, I would be on your side (kind of, as I don't really care if it is banned or not).

The problem is that is not your only complaint and the other things you complain about detract from the one thing you are correct about.

If I would ever find myself agreeing with Struyk, I would think long and hard on the possibility that I might be wrong. Just saying...

magic_gazz
01-28-2015, 06:39 PM
If I would ever find myself agreeing with Struyk, I would think long and hard on the possibility that I might be wrong. Just saying...

In general I don't. Just that Mirror Knight is too good.

Gwaer
01-28-2015, 06:42 PM
MK is very good, I agree that he is probably the best card in set 1. But there will always be a best card. It's not too good, most tournaments have been won by decks without him in it.

Xexist
01-28-2015, 06:46 PM
I played a mirror knight the other day on turn 2, and instead of rage quitting, or calling me pay to win, or telling me my card should be banned, my opponent cast burn on it before my end of turn. ....

TRUE STORY

anyways my point is OMG BURN is OP!

magic_gazz
01-28-2015, 06:52 PM
Not saying the sky is falling, but when a card skews deckbuilding and MK does, it has to be at least considered it might be a bit good.

ossuary
01-28-2015, 08:49 PM
Nobody is saying it's not good! They're just saying it's not TOO good. Do you understand that there is a difference between those two things?

Bmon
01-28-2015, 09:27 PM
So since the original thread is about the current state of the metagame, I thought I'd provide some data for discussion. I analyzed all of the unique decks run during the January VIP (discounting players who won twice with the same deck) and here are the results:

Total decks: 34



Aggro:
# of Decks:
% Use
Cost, USD ($)


RS GoreKnights
13
38.24%
54


R DwarfFeast
1
2.94%
52


R Red Deck Wins
1
2.94%
18.5


RB Orcs
1
2.94%
9


Midrange:





BD Midrange
4
11.76%
155


RS Jankfeast
2
5.88%
---


B Paladin Midrange
1
2.94%
110


B Troops
1
2.94%
167


W Briggadon Ramp
1
2.94%
21


DW Ramp
1
2.94%
146.5


D Human Pump
1
2.94%
62.5


RD Midrange
1
2.94%
74


Control:





DS Lean Back
2
5.88%
66


S Control
1
2.94%
48


RD Control
1
2.94%
75


B Darkspire Control
1
2.94%
33


BW Tupact
1
2.94%
35.5



Costs include main deck cards only and were estimated using the recent AH data HexEnt released. All in all that leaves 17 potentially viable decks (well, 16 ignoring JankFeast) in the meta. They won't all end up being viable, but some notable archetypes we've seen before were: RS GoreKnights, BD Midrange, DS Lean Back, mono S control, BW Tupact, and mono B darkspire control. A deck I thought was quite cool was Cirouss' RD control deck. As is expected, blood decks are pay through the roof to play, with diamond not too far behind. I posted the cost for the GoreKnights deck including storm clouds, but the deck is ~$20 cheaper (and better imo) without them. It is super low price compared with blood containing decks probably accounts for a lot of its popularity, but there appear to be other cheap, potentially viable options out there.

What are your thoughts?

Falaris
01-28-2015, 09:34 PM
Only one deck costing more than 150 bucks, out of 16. Sure is pay to win, right? (the correct answer is: wrong)

Malakili
01-28-2015, 09:47 PM
Not saying the sky is falling, but when a card skews deckbuilding and MK does, it has to be at least considered it might be a bit good.

Like Gwaer said, there will always be a best card. If some things don't stand out, you're going to have a pretty boring game on your hands. You have to get to serious levels of meta-brokenness before you're banning a card in standard. Affinity levels of broken. Jace, the Mind Sculptor levels of broken. Stoneforge Mystic levels of broken.

MK is not those things. Not even close.

Edit; And that's really the threshold here. Either something is ban worthy or it isn't. After you get the answer to that question - and we have - the discussion is over. If people want to chat endlessly over whether or not they like gorefeast decks or MK, well, ok I guess. But no one cares about your, or my, personal preference about a popular deck.

Barkam
01-28-2015, 09:51 PM
Not saying the sky is falling, but when a card skews deckbuilding and MK does, it has to be at least considered it might be a bit good.

Extinction is way worse when it comes to impacting and influencing deck building...

magic_gazz
01-28-2015, 10:33 PM
Nobody is saying it's not good! They're just saying it's not TOO good. Do you understand that there is a difference between those two things?

I totally understand that but I am not sure I agree. I think it is pretty close.

It doesn't matter because either they ban it or they don't. Most people are not able to discuss it like reasonable people, its either "AGGHH BROKEN" or "ITS FINE, YOU ARE DUMB" when it is not really that straightforward.

And Extinction does not impact deckbuilding as much, extinction affects how you play the match up. Most decks are not better for adding Extinction, most decks are better by adding Mirror Knight

israel.kendall
01-28-2015, 10:36 PM
Extinction is way worse when it comes to impacting and influencing deck building...

Extinction impacts the entire way you play the game vs blood, just on the chance they might be playing it.

Gwaer
01-28-2015, 10:40 PM
I dunno. I think extinction probably does impact deck building more than MK. Extinction is format defining rather than warping, it's existance pretty much dictates what can and cannot be but is not run in every deck necessarily. MK is more powerful because extinction exists, and I'd wager it exists because extinction exists.

Prodygi
01-28-2015, 11:24 PM
I dunno. I think extinction probably does impact deck building more than MK. Extinction is format defining rather than warping, it's existance pretty much dictates what can and cannot be but is not run in every deck necessarily. MK is more powerful because extinction exists, and I'd wager it exists because extinction exists.

Exactly. If not for extinction, bunnies would definitely see more play. It's defining the meta even though not every deck is blood and not every blood deck plays it.

tl:dr: +1

Barkam
01-29-2015, 12:03 AM
And Extinction does not impact deckbuilding as much, extinction affects how you play the match up. Most decks are not better for adding Extinction, most decks are better by adding Mirror Knight

Tons of decks are unplayable because Extinction exists. You can't say that about Cerulean Mirror Knight.

Jeevus
01-29-2015, 12:13 AM
Just have a look at set2 for ONCE. Extinction got nerfed pretty hard due to new mechanics (tunneling) and cards like Master Moss and Monsuun, which is a good thing. So no, Extinction doesn't influence your deckbuilding as much as it was set1. That sort of thing didn't happen for cmk though. On the contrary, it got buffed due to spies, clouds and verdict.

CMK is a whole other story. Your opponent plays blood. You play your turn 2 CMK and turn 3 cloud with charge. With you on the play, no way to answer that. So you already have 2-3 cards advantage (3 if you get the draw stormling). So what happens if you dont answer cmk after that? your opponent is most likely playin a falconer. HE doesn't care about extinction. It's card advantage for him.

Not sure why i have to keep repeating arguments. All i see as counter-argument is "cmk is not op", but no real reason. I am not saying: "Just ban the card". There are other options to limit its use. How about a restriction of 2 per deck? Just because mtg is not doing it doesnt mean it's a bad thing.

Again, im not trying to get any bans going on, that's not my call to make. I just don't think that all we should do is nod and say"ah it's just 1 set, gore and cmk is not op". Now, it's just 2 sets, it's not op. (and for the record i am not complaining about gore, it's strong, but has a good variety of answers)

Prodygi
01-29-2015, 12:24 AM
CMK > Extinction > Frost Wizard

Rock > Scissors > Paper

Rock OP.

In all seriousness. I think CMK is pretty strong. But OP? Nah.

Monsuun and Master Moss is at the price they are at probably also because they counter(sorta) extinctions.

Jeevus
01-29-2015, 12:29 AM
yep, sad that frost wizard dies to burn, crackling bolt, can get buccaneered, will get time rippled. But in theory, yes. Frost Wizard is good.

It's not that i didn't try Frost Wizard against gore. It still doesnt help. You play FW -> Buccaneer. What now? you are in immediate threat of gore feast if you replay the Frost wizard on 3. You have to deal with the board unless you want to lose right away. Gore Feast will always have the upper hand in board control. Thats just how it is.

Gwaer
01-29-2015, 12:41 AM
Set two has answers to cmk. I mean howling shrine was basically printed solely to counter it, I think. Filk ape counters it and all other inspire in wild. Frost wizard in diamond. CMK has just as many answers for it as extinction. I'm not saying I'm necessarily against restrictions or bans for CMK in the future. But right now it has not proven to be a problem.

This is honestly why I like the no nerfs philosophy of this game. If this were league they'd probabky jump in and do something. I've found they often jump the gun with changes rather than let the meta shake out. With this, especially after we're getting scheduled set releases every few months they can just have the format shake out and try to correct for problems in the following set, and in rare cases where that's impossible or the problem is too major they can restrict or ban. Or even conditional ban ie gorefeast and cmk are fine individually but not together.

I believe it's too early in this meta cycle to declare there is a problem.

Prodygi
01-29-2015, 12:41 AM
CMK dies to Meek(Diamond). CMK can get Exiled(Diamond).
But yes, like I've previously state, CMK is very good. MirrorFeast is very good. But OP? I do not think so.

Turn 2 I FW, turn 2 you CMK. Turn 3 I Meek. But thats not the point. There are simply too many scenario that could take place. What if you drew Storm Cloud without CMK? What if I have turn 2 Angel? What if I was Sapphire and I Time Ripple your CMK making it useless for Cloud?

The simple fact is, there ARE answers.

@Gwaer
Howling Shrine? That card doesn't hard-counter CMK though.

Jeevus
01-29-2015, 01:21 AM
CMK dies to Meek(Diamond). CMK can get Exiled(Diamond).
But yes, like I've previously state, CMK is very good. MirrorFeast is very good. But OP? I do not think so.

Turn 2 I FW, turn 2 you CMK. Turn 3 I Meek. But thats not the point. There are simply too many scenario that could take place. What if you drew Storm Cloud without CMK? What if I have turn 2 Angel? What if I was Sapphire and I Time Ripple your CMK making it useless for Cloud?

The simple fact is, there ARE answers.

@Gwaer
Howling Shrine? That card doesn't hard-counter CMK though.

You are hitting the nail. What if they don't have cmk? THat's exactly when the winrate drops rapidly for gore feast. Thats exactly my point. The deck itself is not op, it's good. CMK is the card that makes this deck (and others) to a no brainer, because you don't have to think about board control vs card advantage. Like for example overcommitting into an extinction.

Jeevus
01-29-2015, 01:25 AM
Set two has answers to cmk. I mean howling shrine was basically printed solely to counter it, I think. Filk ape counters it and all other inspire in wild. Frost wizard in diamond. CMK has just as many answers for it as extinction. I'm not saying I'm necessarily against restrictions or bans for CMK in the future. But right now it has not proven to be a problem.

This is honestly why I like the no nerfs philosophy of this game. If this were league they'd probabky jump in and do something. I've found they often jump the gun with changes rather than let the meta shake out. With this, especially after we're getting scheduled set releases every few months they can just have the format shake out and try to correct for problems in the following set, and in rare cases where that's impossible or the problem is too major they can restrict or ban. Or even conditional ban ie gorefeast and cmk are fine individually but not together.

I believe it's too early in this meta cycle to declare there is a problem.


I played 3 drowned shrines mainboard solely for that reason gwaer. (in a b/w feral domination control). The one game i faced gore, i still lost, even though i had shrine. And for the record, i played zared. (Went 3-1, the only loss being vs gore. he had better draws, happens).

Why was shrine not enough? Because i had to deal with board as well. At one point, even 2x 0/1 Birds are dangerous if you dont know whether your opponent can simply gore you.

That being said, drowned shrine is not a card you want to mainboard usually. Even though i did, it wasn't enough. He can still draw a card on my turn, when he forces me to block. Still card advantage.

Gwaer
01-29-2015, 01:28 AM
@Gwaer
Howling Shrine? That card doesn't hard-counter CMK though.

http://hextcg.gamepedia.com/Drowned_Shrine_of_Ulthar

This one. I have no idea why I called it howling shrine. Other than I always do that. Since I broke myself from calling it silent cave.

@Jeevus, you're right about mainboarding it. However from the sound of it the gorefeast portion of the deck is what took you out. i think drowned shrine is a fantastic counter to cmk. Though I'll admit it is still card advantage to your opponent. Especially if you can't wipe his board on his turn and he is forcing you to chump.

Prodygi
01-29-2015, 01:41 AM
*drowned shrine is not a card you want to mainboard usually. He can still draw a card on my turn, when he forces me to block. Still card advantage.


Yup. Which is why i said it isn't a hard counter to CMK.


You are hitting the nail. What if they don't have cmk? THat's exactly when the winrate drops rapidly for gore feast. Thats exactly my point. The deck itself is not op, it's good. CMK is the card that makes this deck (and others) to a no brainer, because you don't have to think about board control vs card advantage. Like for example overcommitting into an extinction.

Not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Seems like you are agreeing with me.

I'm not really interested in "what ifs". It's never ending. All I know is, CMK/GoreFeast is good, but there are answers.

People are just too lazy/dumb to think/innovate because complaining is always the easiest way out.

Jeevus
01-29-2015, 02:17 AM
Yup. Which is why i said it isn't a hard counter to CMK.



Not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Seems like you are agreeing with me.

I'm not really interested in "what ifs". It's never ending. All I know is, CMK/GoreFeast is good, but there are answers.

People are just too lazy/dumb to think/innovate because complaining is always the easiest way out.

That's what i am trying to say. I am not the kind of player who sees a card and says: damn op. ban it plox. I try to find solutions and play ahead of it. That works just fine almost always. But if a card has not enough answers, even though it has to be answered directly, you might have a problem. And drowned shrine is no card that you can call a reliable answer. Gore wins due to board advantage. Thats good and fine. But for that, there should be a disadvantage (like in less cards in hand -> card disadvantage). CMK prevents that.

Struyk
01-29-2015, 02:25 AM
That's what i am trying to say. I am not the kind of player who sees a card and says: damn op. ban it plox. I try to find solutions and play ahead of it. That works just fine almost always. But if a card has not enough answers, even though it has to be answered directly, you might have a problem. And drowned shrine is no card that you can call a reliable answer. Gore wins due to board advantage. Thats good and fine. But for that, there should be a disadvantage (like in less cards in hand -> card disadvantage). CMK prevents that.

+1

Drowned Shrine really doesn't counter CMK because he might stop drawing more cards, as he still has a 2/2 on the field. CMK + Gore is bad, but add in Storm Cloud which benefits ALOT from both and there is a real issue.

And if the counter is in a deck which nobody plays as it's far below current standards ( filk ape ) then you can't call it a counter either.

I think worst is when enemy plays CMK + another troop in one turn, like poca ability...

Jeevus
01-29-2015, 02:38 AM
+1

Drowned Shrine really doesn't counter CMK because he might stop drawing more cards, as he still has a 2/2 on the field. CMK + Gore is bad, but add in Storm Cloud which benefits ALOT from both and there is a real issue.

And if the counter is in a deck which nobody plays as it's far below current standards ( filk ape ) then you can't call it a counter either.

I think worst is when enemy plays CMK + another troop in one turn, like poca ability...

Just fyi, i also played filk ape x3 in sideboard. Was nice, but didn't help me vs Gore feast. Simply because i mighhtve handled the cmk (at turn 5, after he already got his card advantage, or i am down health) but wasn't able to handle Falconer, or better said: i couldn't handle gore feast on 0/1 birds + Poca at that point. (since i played Zared, 0/1 Birds were the most likely scenario).

It's not gore feast, nor is it falconer. It's a nice combo, but instant removals, sorrow, heat waves, meeks, Zared etc pp are good enough to answer it. And if you can answer a gore feast with a meek in response, thats great. Of course only if your opponent isn't drawing cards off of that.

magic_gazz
01-29-2015, 02:56 AM
Not sure Drowned Shrine can be classed as an answer.

If you are spending a turn playing a card that does a grand total of 0, I am pretty sure your opponent will be happy about it. You have to use Shrine and a removal to kill a guy, not exactly value.

The only good scenario seem to be playing Shrine and then Extinction and them not having a Time Ripple. Needing a 2 card combo to deal with Mirror Knight + anything also does not seem great.

Struyk
01-29-2015, 02:57 AM
Just fyi, i also played filk ape x3 in sideboard. Was nice, but didn't help me vs Gore feast. Simply because i mighhtve handled the cmk (at turn 5, after he already got his card advantage, or i am down health) but wasn't able to handle Falconer, or better said: i couldn't handle gore feast on 0/1 birds + Poca at that point. (since i played Zared, 0/1 Birds were the most likely scenario).

It's not gore feast, nor is it falconer. It's a nice combo, but instant removals, sorrow, heat waves, meeks, Zared etc pp are good enough to answer it. And if you can answer a gore feast with a meek in response, thats great. Of course only if your opponent isn't drawing cards off of that.

But even if you use Meek on falconer, gorefeast allows the birds to still do 6 damage and stay 2/1...

HeXBazou
01-29-2015, 03:06 AM
I can uderstand that many people don't want a ban but don't forget a card can be unban too, a ban and an unban in the future with new set can be a solution. However i think we can wait 1 or 2 ViP turnament, the meta can evolve ofc. My main issue with this card is that best answer (burn and meek only) are bad versus other cards. We need an good answer versus few other card + CMK . For fight CMK we need specific main deck card so in my opinion CMK is OP.

Jeevus
01-29-2015, 03:13 AM
Not sure Drowned Shrine can be classed as an answer.

If you are spending a turn playing a card that does a grand total of 0, I am pretty sure your opponent will be happy about it. You have to use Shrine and a removal to kill a guy, not exactly value.

The only good scenario seem to be playing Shrine and then Extinction and them not having a Time Ripple. Needing a 2 card combo to deal with Mirror Knight + anything also does not seem great.


You're right. It's no perfect answer, but the best you can have. Why? Simply because it avoids all responses gore feast has normally. Like Burn, Crackling Bolt, Buccaneers. It might not avoid time ripple, but you'll probably be happy if he ripples your shrine, just so he loses pressure and you can play it again next turn or play a direct removal to keep a fresh board state.

combatwombat
01-29-2015, 03:20 AM
But even if you use Meek on falconer, gorefeast allows the birds to still do 6 damage and stay 2/1...

Not with Filk Ape.
Filk Ape won't stop the initial 6dmg but will not allow it to be higher than that.

I understand that people don't understand the Filk Ape and how really overpowered that card is. But it is true that on its own it can't do much, thing is people don't understand the powerful mechanic it brings and how devastating it can be for any deck if supported correctly.

Cloudfeasts are getting nerfed by it with simplest things: No buffs hold - aside of initial buff on play. Only few Charge counters on Cloud allowed, usually only 1. Whole draw card mechanic goes to...

Marble decks - complete nerf by Filk Ape combined with Wind of Change or Nature Reigns.

2 Pact - like Marble

Lifedrain Diamond decks - *giggle*

Monsuun / HopHiro bunny decks - *giggle*

Sapphire exhaust decks - *giggle* especially when you combine it with Constantina

Any form of inspire deck - *giggle*

Filk Ape DOMINATES... I'm opening a club dedicated to that card :3

Struyk
01-29-2015, 03:31 AM
Not with Filk Ape.
Filk Ape won't stop the initial 6dmg but will not allow it to be higher than that.

I understand that people don't understand the Filk Ape and how really overpowered that card is. But it is true that on its own it can't do much, thing is people don't understand the powerful mechanic it brings and how devastating it can be for any deck if supported correctly.

Cloudfeasts are getting nerfed by it with simplest things: No buffs hold - aside of initial buff on play. Only few Charge counters on Cloud allowed, usually only 1. Whole draw card mechanic goes to...

Marble decks - complete nerf by Filk Ape combined with Wind of Change or Nature Reigns.

2 Pact - like Marble

Lifedrain Diamond decks - *giggle*

Monsuun / HopHiro bunny decks - *giggle*

Sapphire exhaust decks - *giggle* especially when you combine it with Constantina

Any form of inspire deck - *giggle*

Filk Ape DOMINATES... I'm opening a club dedicated to that card :3

I admit that Filk Ape is great, but the rest of Wild sucks, almost no control spells and the only 2 above avarage cards ( sight of the sun / wrathwood master moss ) are really expensive lol

Xenavire
01-29-2015, 03:46 AM
Play ruby/wild and use stink troll+wreckasaurus. With filk ape, stink troll also is a repeating combat trick. Then slot in some burn as removal, and you have a nasty deck.

Plus, with poca, you can easily end up with an extra 4/2 crush on your swing.

Struyk
01-29-2015, 03:51 AM
Play ruby/wild and use stink troll+wreckasaurus. With filk ape, stink troll also is a repeating combat trick. Then slot in some burn as removal, and you have a nasty deck.

Plus, with poca, you can easily end up with an extra 4/2 crush on your swing.

I got a deck using Stink Troll + Gas Troll + Wreckasaurus, but it really needs gorefeast though XD And really don't want Filk Ape with Gas Troll :P

Jeevus
01-29-2015, 04:06 AM
Not with Filk Ape.
Filk Ape won't stop the initial 6dmg but will not allow it to be higher than that.

I understand that people don't understand the Filk Ape and how really overpowered that card is. But it is true that on its own it can't do much, thing is people don't understand the powerful mechanic it brings and how devastating it can be for any deck if supported correctly.

Cloudfeasts are getting nerfed by it with simplest things: No buffs hold - aside of initial buff on play. Only few Charge counters on Cloud allowed, usually only 1. Whole draw card mechanic goes to...

Marble decks - complete nerf by Filk Ape combined with Wind of Change or Nature Reigns.

2 Pact - like Marble

Lifedrain Diamond decks - *giggle*

Monsuun / HopHiro bunny decks - *giggle*

Sapphire exhaust decks - *giggle* especially when you combine it with Constantina

Any form of inspire deck - *giggle*

Filk Ape DOMINATES... I'm opening a club dedicated to that card :3

I am with you on that. Why do you think i played what i played in vip? Filk Ape <3
You still have to do something Turn 1-4 until you can say: Filk Ape dominates. Not to mention that some smart people sac their troops (if they can) the turn they play it when Ape is on the other side of the field and monsuun is tunneled. Because you dodge the effect. And ofc it's a prime target for any removal or against gore, Buccaneer, which most likely results in a ton of damage that turn, unless you have a good board.

That being said, Ape is amazing, but not the solution by its own. You need to tailor your deck accordingly to be able to play against gore.

Xenavire
01-29-2015, 04:33 AM
I got a deck using Stink Troll + Gas Troll + Wreckasaurus, but it really needs gorefeast though XD And really don't want Filk Ape with Gas Troll :P

Why would you play Gas Troll with Ape? Simple answer: don't. There are better options out there. And it wouldn't need gore feast, if you built the deck correctly.

Ebynfel
01-29-2015, 05:43 AM
Why would you play Gas Troll with Ape? Simple answer: don't. There are better options out there. And it wouldn't need gore feast, if you built the deck correctly.

Hell, even if it DOES need Gore, who cares? Gorefeasting a wild board featuring Wreckasaurus? Yes plx

Xenavire
01-29-2015, 06:02 AM
Hell, even if it DOES need Gore, who cares? Gorefeasting a wild board featuring Wreckasaurus? Yes plx

Oh, I can't argue with how scary it is, but if it is just 'win more', then the slot is better used for tempo/removal. :p

Ebynfel
01-29-2015, 06:26 AM
Well, like I said, IF it needs Gore, play it. it'd be freaking scary :) If it doesn't? Then it doesn't.

Hieronymous
01-29-2015, 07:43 AM
The problem with Filk Ape is it's hard to keep it alive. You can't even (for example) put an Arcane Shield on it.

plaguedealer
01-29-2015, 07:57 AM
The argument that wild needs better 1 to 3 cost drops is very valid imo. I am sure it will get more love in set 3.

meetthefuture
01-29-2015, 07:57 AM
GoreKnights do not care about Filk Ape. The only way this card can be even playable is if you build your own deck around it which is rarely worth it


I understand that people don't understand the Filk Ape and how really overpowered that card is.
That's not the case. The card is overrated, not underrated

Sonicrain
01-29-2015, 08:28 AM
I'm 100% sure Solforge has way more than 5, here are 5 on top of my head

Yeti ( Uranti Warlord )
Zombie ( Xrath, DreadKnight Of Varna / Zimus )
Dinosaur ( Bron, Wild Tamer )
Metamind ( Ghox )
Spirit Wanderers ( Ruthless Wanderer / Restless Wanderer )

Those are just 5 of them, I c.

im sorry but you are plain wrong here. Solforge handling of the game is absolutely garbage. They nerf cards left and right every fucking patch + the game is insanely unbalanced. Remember the fucking 2/6 witch? yeah....

Also the current meta is the following

tier 1 NU BQ Tracker, T Rage of Kadras
tier 2 or (Tier 1.5) AT Redbots, AT Ator Ragebots, NT Dragons, NU Lifedrain, UT Dinosaurs
tier 3 AT Stasis Warden, AN Kitfinity

if you do not play this you do not play competitively.
I been playing since day 1 and the constructed side of solforge is one of the worst I have ever seen. I get m y fucking tickets, i draft, i leave the game. + the RNG drawing is insanely poor. Your example is wrong but i get what your trying to say

Struyk
01-29-2015, 08:37 AM
im sorry but you are plain wrong here. Solforge handling of the game is absolutely garbage. They nerf cards left and right every fucking patch + the game is insanely unbalanced. Remember the fucking 2/6 witch? yeah....

Also the current meta is the following

tier 1 NU BQ Tracker, T Rage of Kadras
tier 2 or (Tier 1.5) AT Redbots, AT Ator Ragebots, NT Dragons, NU Lifedrain, UT Dinosaurs
tier 3 AT Stasis Warden, AN Kitfinity

if you do not play this you do not play competitively.
I been playing since day 1 and the constructed side of solforge is one of the worst I have ever seen. I get m y fucking tickets, i draft, i leave the game. + the RNG drawing is insanely poor. Your example is wrong but i get what your trying to say

I havent seen a BQ last 50+ matches lol, but Rage of Kadras is sure in overflow and in the lastest update they said they were gonna nerf it :D

Sonicrain
01-29-2015, 08:48 AM
Yeah i seen the patch notes, which annoys me. They are nerfing so fucking much its stupid. It creates a "fake" "economy" or whatever the word im looking for. They release op cards, ppl want to OP. OP gets nerfed. GG u paid lots for a nerfed card.
At least Hex and MTG has the balls to not nerf their cards. MTG bans but thats fine. I hope Hex keeps on being true to their game. Solforge designers are mediocre.

also, 3 sets on solforge, 0 love for zombies. GTFO

Struyk
01-29-2015, 09:05 AM
Yeah i seen the patch notes, which annoys me. They are nerfing so fucking much its stupid. It creates a "fake" "economy" or whatever the word im looking for. They release op cards, ppl want to OP. OP gets nerfed. GG u paid lots for a nerfed card.
At least Hex and MTG has the balls to not nerf their cards. MTG bans but thats fine. I hope Hex keeps on being true to their game. Solforge designers are mediocre.

also, 3 sets on solforge, 0 love for zombies. GTFO

Pretty much all legendaries are the same value, unless they are really new because you can craft them.. I traded atleast 100+ legendaries 1 for 1 lol

N3rd4Christ
01-29-2015, 09:31 AM
No it isn't.

You can't conclude only from popularity if a card is actually over powered. With enough PR work I bet we could get 90% of 4/0 decks in the February VIP tournament to include Baby Yeti. That wouldn't make Baby Yeti overpowered or indicate any kind on imbalance in the game design of Hex.

I steongly disagree with this statement. Everyone knows Baby Yet I is OP

Saeijou
01-29-2015, 09:34 AM
Not with Filk Ape.

Marble decks - complete nerf by Filk Ape combined with Wind of Change or Nature Reigns.


filk ape isn't reverting marble?! Filk ape "only" reverts all troops
and since it is a constant, the +2/+2 and steadfast should come back, right?

Xenavire
01-29-2015, 09:54 AM
filk ape isn't reverting marble?! Filk ape "only" reverts all troops
and since it is a constant, the +2/+2 and steadfast should come back, right?

He means that if marble goes troop, Ape wrecks it, and Nature Reigns/Winds of Change will take out the base card or the Armaments.

Hieronymous
01-29-2015, 10:02 AM
The counter to Filk Ape in a B/W soul marble deck isn't soul marble, it's vampire king, extinction, and murder.

Turtlewing
01-29-2015, 10:16 AM
I steongly disagree with this statement. Everyone knows Baby Yet I is OP

Point, but no one uses it, so it's still a solid example of popular not equating to overpowered.

Struyk
01-29-2015, 10:20 AM
Point, but no one uses it, so it's still a solid example of popular not equating to overpowered.

It's the only popular not overpowered card though lol :D

Turtlewing
01-29-2015, 10:26 AM
It's the only popular not overpowered card though lol :D

Since your definition of "overpowered" is equivalent to "popular" (used more frequently or having a higher market price than an average card of the same rarity) that sentence is a contradiction.

Struyk
01-29-2015, 10:32 AM
Since your definition of "overpowered" is equivalent to "popular" (used more frequently or having a higher market price than an average card of the same rarity) that sentence is a contradiction.

There's a difference between popular and most used though.

Avaian
01-29-2015, 10:34 AM
The counter to Filk Ape in a B/W soul marble deck isn't soul marble, it's vampire king, extinction, and murder.

Well Murder is the only one there I can really think of as a counter to Filk Ape. You can play it just for mass revert at the end of your turn. Vampire King can be countered by Feral Domination, but it is good against Filk Ape. I have trouble seeing Extinction as a counter to Filk Ape, unless the Filk ape is already in play and its ability wasn't used for anything useful.

You can play the X counters Y game all day though.

Saeijou
01-29-2015, 10:36 AM
Well Murder is the only one there I can really think of as a counter to Filk Ape. You can play it just for mass revert at the end of your turn. Vampire King can be countered by Feral Domination, but it is good against Filk Ape. I have trouble seeing Extinction as a counter to Filk Ape, unless the Filk ape is already in play and its ability wasn't used for anything useful.

You can play the X counters Y game all day though.

but thats the deal... nothing is overpowered, as long a counter exists :)

funktion
01-29-2015, 10:47 AM
The counter to Filk Ape in a B/W soul marble deck isn't soul marble, it's vampire king, extinction, and murder.
Izydor OP just saying.

Struyk
01-29-2015, 11:05 AM
but thats the deal... nothing is overpowered, as long a counter exists :)

Yup thats why set 3 will be full of 1 cost 99/99 flyers, this totally destroys your arguement so please stop using it.

Erebus
01-29-2015, 11:31 AM
Yup thats why set 3 will be full of 1 cost 99/99 flyers, this totally destroys your arguement so please stop using it.

Counter != Interrupt.

Please stop.

Struyk
01-29-2015, 11:37 AM
Counter != Interrupt.

Please stop.

Murder, exile, extinction, bounce etc etc?