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Lefto
02-07-2015, 03:47 AM
My original post is in the "AI misplays" but at the risk of it being buried there, I'm also posting here:

I have to start off by saying that I know the AI is still supposedly not finished but still, playing the Arena was quite the disappointment. I don't mean to be snide but I really don't see the point of this thread*. The AI plays so bad it's not even funny. I'm fairly sure that an AI overhaul is needed and not just band-aid AI-patches based on the misplays we observe. AI has been terrible since day 1 of alpha and keeps being as terrible.
"Magic 201x" has a great AI and that should give HEX ent. some idea of how to fix the AI in HEX (given the fact that random people have managed to create new cards and programmed new decks in Magic 2014 for example). If random fans can do it, HEX ent's professional AI department should be able to breeze through it...
I cannot stress enough the importance of a robust AI. If it's not in tip-top shape by the time PVE comes out, people will be terribly put off and the game will wither and die. I for one, DON'T want to see that happen! Fire the whole AI department if you have to, just fix the damn AI! And I'm saying FIX, not improve. When your opponent buffs your troops (and this is just one of many pathetic examples) the AI needs a complete overhaul, not just some tweaks as stated in the "test server known issues" thread.

*Referring to the "AI misplays" thread

Avaian
02-07-2015, 04:11 AM
I can understand your annoyance with the current AI, however it is just a baby and has already come a long way since its first implementation.

I have no information on how the Hex AI actually works so it is hard to say what needs to be done.

Edit: Also I think Arena is the first time the Hex AI has ever been majorly tested, before it was really only against the Proving Grounds AI that people played and that was a minor thing outside of testing decks.

WolfCrypt
02-07-2015, 04:45 AM
It might be just me but I find the ai plenty enough to handle as s though I must admit even with my crappy skills it can be maybe 10% smarter? Really killing a shin'hare when my Eulogist is attacking?? Just kill it on your next turn or hit the eulogist when I'm blocking with him and that would have put a wrench in my plans badly... They also seemed a bit smart by avoiding to kill my shroomshaw as long as possible and in fact I gave up and killed it myself.

Rokku
02-07-2015, 06:48 AM
I am also worried with the progress of AI since alpha. Its fine for AI to make mistakes but major issues like killing own troops seems to be an issue that never goes away since day 1.

I'm wondering why after all this time the AI still has no concept of phases, troop ownership or set 1 keywords (ignores rage on a 0/1 troop therefore not attacking). It seems to be that this framework should have been in place long ago with only fine tuning new keywords and card mechanics remaining.

I hope the situation is that only now is AI being focused on and that perhaps the AI dev team were busy on other engineering tasks for PVP.

Finally I'm curious how the AI is being programmed.
A. Does it currently use hard coded strategies with lots of if else loops that only works with specific decklists.
B. A more generalized AI that is taught what each card does and then determines its own strategies (much harder).

Fingers crossed its B.

Avaian
02-07-2015, 07:30 AM
I am also worried with the progress of AI since alpha. Its fine for AI to make mistakes but major issues like killing own troops seems to be an issue that never goes away since day 1.

I'm wondering why after all this time the AI still has no concept of phases, troop ownership or set 1 keywords (ignores rage on a 0/1 troop therefore not attacking). It seems to be that this framework should have been in place long ago with only fine tuning new keywords and card mechanics remaining.

I hope the situation is that only now is AI being focused on and that perhaps the AI dev team were busy on other engineering tasks for PVP.

Finally I'm curious how the AI is being programmed.
A. Does it currently use hard coded strategies with lots of if else loops that only works with specific decklists.
B. A more generalized AI that is taught what each card does and then determines its own strategies (much harder).

Fingers crossed its B.

It is most likely B. They hype for AI was for it being super sophisticated and Chris Woods is supposed to be the best.

If full PvE is out and the AI is still making major mistakes then I would see problems.

However I recently had a game where the AI played Stormcall after I played Menacing Gralk for the kill. The AI used to not even play actions on your turn.

Nekrabyte
02-07-2015, 07:31 AM
i can mostly agree with this, but i have faith they'll get there...

it WAS pretty sad to see the main reason i won a game was because my VK turned 2 of my opponents wrathwood collossus into vampires (and the AI had 3 turns and enough shards to cast them both), and another win because my opponent relentless corruptioned into one of my extinctions but didn't cast it even when i had out 2 VK's, a corpse fly and a DS tyrant.

Ju66ernaut
02-07-2015, 07:48 AM
I may be a fanboy, but I still feel that beta is beta is beta. I think that the AI has generally gotten better. While some of these plays seem absolutely ridiculous, they most often seem to be using simple logic. When the AI targets it's own troop with Feeding the Young Ones, that is because that troop is seen as the biggest killable threat. If we (Hex Ent) can teach it to distinguish troops that belong to the AI and Troops that belong to the players, then that issue is resolved. There are probably something like 10,000 interactions in the game at this moment. It takes time to settle out the complex baseline so that future content can be added more easily.

I acknowledge that I could be totally wrong and the AI may never get better. But I have faith in Hex Ent and choose to believe that the AI can and will get better. Chris Woods and his boys have a lot on their plates. But they are getting it done, one step at a time, as they should.

Remember. Sausage factory.

MagicFridge
02-07-2015, 09:10 AM
Yeah, but the AI is so bad i could cut myself with rusty nails and its more fun :D
Just saing...
It's really bad...
I dont see any kind of strategie, surprises or tricky playes there..
Just dump playes...

AI must be way way better


mfg Fridge

bootlace
02-07-2015, 09:20 AM
None of us have any insight on what the Hex AI team is up to or any knowledge how cutting edge TCG AI systems are created. What we do know is that Chris Woods is one of the most accomplished names in the space and has worked on games such as Legends of Norrath, Star Wars Galaxies, Stargate, and Magic: the Gathering Tactics. They're supposed to be working on a "breakthrough proprietary engine that genuinely simulates the feeling of playing against a human opponent" - I'm guessing this doesn't happen overnight.

Instead of foolish statements like "Fire the whole AI department if you have to" or "I really don't see the point of this thread" I suggest we fill out the AI misplays like it's asked of us and and let the experts do what they set out to do.

spankydonkey
02-07-2015, 09:23 AM
I started a thread in the test server discussion on this subject, this is what I said there.

The game as far as I'm aware has been in deployment for years now, and this is where we are at?
This has to be the most up to date version of the AI, because why would anyone put out an old version on a test server to be checked for bugs etc? They would not learn anything from the feed back.

I personally don't know how difficult it is to code AI for a game like this, but due to all the cards/equipment permutations, I'm going to guess at very!
Maybe even impossible?, they may have bitten of more than they can chew?
All the grand plans & theory's sound amazing, but clearly putting them in to practise is proving just to difficult.

Anyone hoping, like I was that PvE was going to be coming out any time soon, needs a reality check.

I love this game more than any other, I play it almost every day, read all the posts etc, no one, apart from maybe Cory himself wants this to succeed more than I do, but I'm very worried, because without great AI in the PvE & soon, this game may well be done!

Please prove me wrong.

Lefto
02-07-2015, 09:33 AM
Instead of foolish statements like "Fire the whole AI department if you have to" or "I really don't see the point of this thread" I suggest we fill out the AI misplays like it's asked of us and and let the experts do what they set out to do.
Why exactly is it foolish to fire someone if they are terrible at their job? HEX will soon be open to everyone, not just fan-boys and heavily invested Kickstarters such as ourselves and you can expect a VERY unfavorable criticism regarding the A.I. I'm only voicing my concerns before it's too late. And it seems to me that Cory may have been too lenient and even gullible towards his developers. You are foolish if you think that the A.I is headed anywhere towards anything we were told it would be, given its' current state.

P.S I am in fact a computer programmer and I know for a fact it's quite easy indeed to prevent the A.I from certain terrible plays regardless of any kind of machine-learning A.I they may be trying to implement. In my not so humble opinion (speculation more like) the whole card-set has been programmed in such a terrible way which has in turn made the proper creation of rules for the A.I to follow impossible. But let's just hope I'm wrong there.

ossuary
02-07-2015, 09:43 AM
If you can't comprehend that it's pointless, rude, and unhelpful to suggest someone be fired for an in-development product that nobody is claiming to be ready for prime time yet, there's no point even talking to you. This hyperbolic nonsense accomplishes nothing except to prove that you are vitriolic and impatient; it's not worth anyone's time trying to convince you of anything, because you're clearly not interested in having an actual conversation.

Back under your bridge, lest we fetch the torches and pitchforks.

Tinfoil
02-07-2015, 09:45 AM
In the first mtg plainswalker games they had challenges with completely determined plays and then they had bosses with a real deck - but the boss-AI only needed to learn their own deck and perhaps each opposing archtype since the archtypes was fixed and there was no real deckbuilding. I know things are more complex in the newest version, but I am guessing it has taken them years to get to that kind of sophistication. A general AI for a game this complecated is really, really hard and has to be able to learn new things as new cards and equipment are introduced. I am guessing it will take Hex a couple of years to get a full AI (if we can even talk about a "full" version) and we will have to settle for various limited sub-version untill then. But it will not matter too much if done well and the Frost Arena is filled with ghosts and ghosts are famous for not being too good at adapting to the present :)

I am no expert so this is just my best guesstimate.

For an AI to feel real I think it has to be able to make a reasonable distinction between the following situations and make appropriate plays:

Should I be the aggressive or the defensive player?
Is it worth it to spend time to set up a "machine" or investment cards or should play more straight forward?
What is most likely to be my opponents most crucial play and can I interrupt it?
What is most likely my own crucial play in the near future and what are the chances my opponent can interrupt it?

Evaluation of opponent is the hard part as it requires passing a theory-of-mind test...it is a really interesting topic actually but I better just stop here.

Lefto
02-07-2015, 09:52 AM
If you can't comprehend that it's pointless, rude, and unhelpful to suggest someone be fired for an in-development product that nobody is claiming to be ready for prime time yet, there's no point even talking to you. This hyperbolic nonsense accomplishes nothing except to prove that you are vitriolic and impatient; it's not worth anyone's time trying to convince you of anything, because you're clearly not interested in having an actual conversation.

How dare you say I'm the one not interesting in having an actual conversation, when you are the one to make personal accusations against me! Spoken like a true fan-boy Ossuary. *clap* *clap* *clap*


Back under your bridge, lest we fetch the torches and pitchforks.

Yes, calling me a troll is very mature of you...
If you enjoy playing against "Uruunaz the retarded Dragon" good for you. However I don't and nor will most of the players HEX hopes to have one day.

Lefto
02-07-2015, 09:58 AM
...A general AI for a game this complecated is really, really hard and has to be able to learn new things as new cards and equipment are introduced...
Seriously why do people think that the A.I of hex will be "general". Every specific deck played by the A.I will need to have its' own set of rules and coding. HEX ent. isn't building SKYNET. They are making a game with specific encounters. Same as in every game out there, each opponent has a piece of code related to them. You can't expect each boss in WoW to be governed by the same set of rules obviously and it's the same with HEX.

bootlace
02-07-2015, 10:04 AM
Seriously why do people think that the A.I of hex will be "general". Every specific deck played by the A.I will need to have its' own set of rules and coding. HEX ent. isn't building SKYNET. They are making a game with specific encounters. Same as in every game out there, each opponent has a piece of code related to them. You can't expect each boss in WoW to be governed by the same set of rules obviously and it's the same with HEX.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

Lefto
02-07-2015, 10:08 AM
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

Just FYI both bootlace and Ossuary are being reported for harassment

Gwaer
02-07-2015, 10:18 AM
rotfl. Lefto, you've no idea what you're talking about, and calling for people to be fired is being incendiary. If anyone will be punished for this thread it's most certainly you =P But thanks for the giggles.

Lefto
02-07-2015, 10:29 AM
rotfl. Lefto, you've no idea what you're talking about, and calling for people to be fired is being incendiary. If anyone will be punished for this thread it's most certainly you =P But thanks for the giggles.

First of all i said "Fire IF YOU HAVE TO" and secondly I guess someone needs to start calling the bad things in the game around here... Might as well be me. And doing that, by no means justifies anyone into personally threatening me. Sorry to bust everyone's funboy-bubble but the game needs a lot of improvements and it needs them fast. Btw unlike most of you funboys who live in the forums/general chat, I actually play the game A LOT and my voice actually HAS value.

Oh, and by the way... saying that my posts gave you the giggles as a "Game Forge QA Volunteer" is simply UNACCEPTABLE!

P.S I actually love the game very much indeed and this is precisely why I made this thread.
P.P.S Graer I have EVERY idea what I'm talking about. I have read all the threads about the A.I since Alpha, plus I played the Arena where A.I "needs some more tweaks"

nicosharp
02-07-2015, 10:32 AM
OP is kind of a joke. Only contributing post was essentially the same bitching OP in the AI misplays thread.

Its amazing how unspecific you can be for claiming to be a programmer, and sad that you rather get philosophical rather than detailed to help Chris pinpoint issues.

Also, magic 201x works with very small card pools, many cards with dumbed down rules. Much easier to work with in a small sandbox.

Kilo24
02-07-2015, 10:35 AM
Seriously why do people think that the A.I of hex will be "general". Every specific deck played by the A.I will need to have its' own set of rules and coding. HEX ent. isn't building SKYNET. They are making a game with specific encounters. Same as in every game out there, each opponent has a piece of code related to them. You can't expect each boss in WoW to be governed by the same set of rules obviously and it's the same with HEX.

You are underestimating the amount of effort it takes to get even utterly stupid play out of a TCG AI. Beyond that, you're also underestimating the variety of behavior even one deck has to handle - if they play Relentless Corruption, are you going to code in behavior for every single card in the game? What about when you spawn them Shin'hare Jailers with the Fungal Monstrosity - are they going to have no idea what to do?

WoW bosses have moronically simple AI, but are designed with that in mind. Indeed, the whole threat management system is about turning predictable AI into a game mechanic. They are puzzles to be solved, not dynamic challenges to be outwitted. They have a large variety of moronic AIs - one for each boss - but are designed to respond very predictably to the actual players' actions. This is not terrible in WoW because the game is designed for it, but a TCG can't do the same. At least, not without some major increases to the AI's power level and in decreases in expectations of decisionmaking capabilities.

A general Hex AI is really the only way that it can cope with an eternal succession of sets, frankly. It's probably already long past the point that specific AI for each deck was viable, frankly.

Avaian
02-07-2015, 10:45 AM
Seriously why do people think that the A.I of hex will be "general". Every specific deck played by the A.I will need to have its' own set of rules and coding. HEX ent. isn't building SKYNET. They are making a game with specific encounters. Same as in every game out there, each opponent has a piece of code related to them. You can't expect each boss in WoW to be governed by the same set of rules obviously and it's the same with HEX.

I think Hex is trying to build SKYNET, Cory wants Hex to live forever no matter the cost.

Lefto
02-07-2015, 10:46 AM
Since this thread is clearly being overwhelmed by the fun-boyz community, I'm just gonna say one last thing and then rest my case...
All of you who have blind faith in the programmers, know that they are people too, and so far they have shown many signs of poor programming (yes as a programmer I can see that, and lol@nicosharp do you wanna see my degree and my resume?). Furthermore you can't expect something to improve unless you actually criticize any faults you see in it and that's exactly what I'm doing.
I just hope Cory gets to read this thread and does something about it...

Avaian
02-07-2015, 10:53 AM
All of you who have blind faith in the programmers, know that they are people too, and so far they have shown many signs of poor programming (yes as a programmer I can see that...

The faith isn't blind, Chris Woods is good at what he does. Bootlace said it fairly well.


None of us have any insight on what the Hex AI team is up to or any knowledge how cutting edge TCG AI systems are created. What we do know is that Chris Woods is one of the most accomplished names in the space and has worked on games such as Legends of Norrath, Star Wars Galaxies, Stargate, and Magic: the Gathering Tactics. They're supposed to be working on a "breakthrough proprietary engine that genuinely simulates the feeling of playing against a human opponent" - I'm guessing this doesn't happen overnight.

Gwaer
02-07-2015, 10:55 AM
They know the faults better than we do, believe me. They play this internally, and many are professional TCG players, do you think they can't see the problems? Being critical is one thing, being incendiary is another, and what makes me laugh about your posts is just how little you know about what they're doing. Maybe it's because I've had the pleasure of talking to Chris Woods on several occasions, But I'm pretty certain there are articles about their AI, and what they're trying to accomplish, and it is not create an ai for each deck as you suggest, it is create an AI that can play any deck it's given. Programmer or no, it's clear you're not well versed in what they're doing, and pretending like you are just makes me laugh.

Kami
02-07-2015, 10:57 AM
Okay guys. The AI is still a major WIP (work-in-progress).

The AI is nowhere near complete at the moment. We understand there is frustration but taking it out on each other is not helping.

Closing thead. Please review the Code of Conduct as necessary.

Chark
02-08-2015, 05:34 PM
(yes as a programmer I can see that, and lol@nicosharp do you wanna see my degree and my resume?).

We're always looking for more engineers! I'd be curious to see your degree/resume. Do you have a LinkedIn profile I could take a look?