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View Full Version : Please, Please, I beg CZE to Delay Set 3!



Kramer
04-07-2015, 04:32 PM
Now before I decided to write this I put on my flame retardant outfit but I truly beg CZE to delay Set 3. Please here me out before you guys/gals rip me to shreds but I promise you I have a very valid argument.

For most micro-transaction games to succeed, it is really important for “whales” to exist in the game as they make up less than 2% of the playerbase but create around 90% of the revenue. I for one may be qualified as a whale in other Digital Trading Card Games as I had complete playsets of Hearthstone, Might and Magic Duel of Champions, Solforge, and Shadow Era before playing Hex, all of which are great games but none are even close to the depth and replay value that Hex provides. However, I will tell you from a whales perspective that if I was not a Kickstarter, and I was to join at or after Set 3, I would find it overwhelming and possibly financially too steep to want to continue in Hex knowing what it would cost to acquire a complete playset of Sets 1-3 plus all released PvE cards.

Now I know many of you will say, that you can just draft and go infinite to acquire playsets, which is a true statement but only a small amount of us can do that, but for the game to succeed we need people paying money and the more “whales” and paying players we can attract the better for all of us and especially the Free-to-Play players who can continue to enjoy the game for free.

Another argument, would be that CZE needs the money to continue funding development and that is why Set 3 needs to be released and a valid argument. However, I have another idea about how CZE can drastically increase revenue and it is fairly simple to implement. Release weekly events similar to the Set 2 Release Party where only the winner wins the AA card, and have it be to win AA cards that people would pay 700 plat ($7) to enter a draft (i.e. Jags, Wakizashi Ambusher, etc.). Make them a weeklong event, so that everyone can play based on players schedules (not everyone can play on weekends). I for one will gladly play in those tournaments as I played in 4 and was only able to win 1 Filk Ape, but it felt really good and a strong sense of accomplishment to win that draft as opposed to normal drafts and I am sure many agree who participated in that event.

Keeping it fresh I know is another reason for coming out with Sets every 4 months or so but I would rather the game be a little stale (not really with Arena Release) in order to acquire new players then to make what I believe is 80%+ of the forum players being Kickstarters happy.

Once the player base is high enough to warrant the release of Set 3 (my guess after the $100k tournament and everyone is addicted to Hex), that is when it should be released so everyone has something fresh. Like me, I am sure many others want to see this game last a really long time and sacrificing a little now for the longevity of the game may be worth it. In my opinion this is the best way to do that.

I hope you all agree but I doubt it so let the rebuttal begin. If you agree lets come up with more ideas on how CZE can make up the revenue loss by delaying Set 3 and drastically increase our player base so that us Kickstarters are the minority.

x78089
04-07-2015, 04:43 PM
there will always be new player to bring in the fold. It makes no sense to delay releases based upon this fact. It will also piss off new players to have a bunch of ultra rare (more than we already have) promos that were only available for a week. What you propose is a double edged sword and generally it is better to feed the beast you do have than to let it die and hope for something better.

Ju66ernaut
04-07-2015, 04:47 PM
I agree, Kramer. I think for the good of the future of HEX, set three should be held off until we are at a point of serious marketability (Dungeons, an asynchronous tournament format of some sort, and possibly double-backs) before set three is released.

hacky
04-07-2015, 04:49 PM
Instead of simply saying that I disagree with just about everything you wrote, I want to ask you about the core of your argument:


However, I will tell you from a whales perspective that if I was not a Kickstarter, and I was to join at or after Set 3, I would find it overwhelming and possibly financially too steep to want to continue in Hex knowing what it would cost to acquire a complete playset of Sets 1-3 plus all released PvE cards.

Why is this overwhelming to you?

You have collected complete playsets of various digital card games, many of which don't have trading, and therefore all progress toward collections in these other games have no value outside your account. You have a complete playset of Hearthstone, which by my estimate, would take at least $350 in packs or a ton of time consistently grinding for gold via dailies. You have a complete playset of SolForge, which has 5 sets out, a really steep money pack price, and a very harsh legendary-card-acquisition grind if one does not daily quest and draft repeatedly.

If you are using money to complete playset other games, why is Hex so different?

Kramer
04-07-2015, 04:55 PM
If you are using money to complete playset other games, why is Hex so different?

The cost to get everything in Hex would far exceeld the cost of Hearthstone and Solforge. I do grind both and I said had playsets. I stopped playing those when I found out about Hex which I guess goes to your point but I am still against the release of Set 3 this early in beta. I also could not afford all of those games for playsets so I choose Hex, but my point is others may just choose to continue putting money in the games they are currently playing vs. add another game. Besides I doubt my post will change any release date of Set 3 as it is just my two cent opinion.

magic_gazz
04-07-2015, 05:04 PM
This has been brought up before.

MTG gets new players every year and has 20 years worth of sets.

I don't think 3 sets is putting off as many people as you think and if it does maybe TCG's are not for them.

Also no one NEEDS playsets of the cards.

bootlace
04-07-2015, 05:05 PM
I really believe some ranked ladder mode needs to be in the game before set 3. Reason: it adds so much replayability (shelf-life) to a new set. Currently people draft like crazy for a week or two and then leave the game, a ladder mode will have them sticking around much more.

More specific to your point though: do whales really need to have complete playsets (you only need 60 cards for a competitive deck) and won't there always be whales late to the party?

Kramer
04-07-2015, 05:14 PM
I really believe some ranked ladder mode needs to be in the game before set 3. Reason: it adds so much replayability (shelf-life) to a new set. Currently people draft like crazy for a week or two and then leave the game, a ladder mode will have them sticking around much more.

I would love a ladder mode, but how does that increase CZE revenue. I guess by purchasing singles on AH to get the deck they want for the ladder. Why not do both? Maybe the event should be every other week or once a month, I just do not want Set 3 revenue loss to delay development in any way.

Xenavire
04-07-2015, 05:17 PM
Set 3 is going to happen when it happens, and we have no say.

As for this whole premise? Even whales don't need entire playsets. Anyone who thinks otherwise is shoe-horning the idea of whales into the completionist segment, which is not strictly true. There are multiple kinds of whales, and a true whale wouldn't worry too much about having a few premium items to buy.

israel.kendall
04-07-2015, 05:19 PM
It was already delayed, no need for thread lol

magic_gazz
04-07-2015, 05:20 PM
Cost to buy 4x every card in 3 sets? I am guessing you could do it for under $1,800.

Don't even have to be much of a whale for that. Cheaper than my legacy deck.

TOOT
04-07-2015, 05:23 PM
I would love a ladder mode, but how does that increase CZE revenue. I guess by purchasing singles on AH to get the deck they want for the ladder. Why not do both? Maybe the event should be every other week or once a month, I just do not want Set 3 revenue loss to delay development in any way.

It increases revenue because people will start buying platinum as there is now a reason to have 4 Master Moss or any other expensive card. People can only draft so much and stockpile a bunch of cards in their collection. I have a full playset, and have used about 5% of the cards I own. I'd love to use my Ancestor's Chosens, my Army Of The Arcane Cinders, and my Master Mosses to see how different decks handle the meta. The meta is poorly established with 1 or 2 tournaments a month that take all day to participate in. There is 0 incentive to play proving grounds matches atm, (not that 100 gold was an incentive), and people concede more often and as quickly than ever. It's even harder to get a game with a lot of people playing Arena.

As I've said in about 8 different threads now, there is nothing for a competitive player to do that has any meaning that doesn't require 4+hrs of uninterrupted time to set aside. When constructed sees an increase in play, which it will when some sort of ranking system is visually implemented, people will spend a lot more money on platinum to play.

plaguedealer
04-07-2015, 05:25 PM
In my opinion dungeons, chest opening and asynch will do more to bring in new players. The problem is that drafting set 2 is getting a little stale tbh. To make the game really take off we need dungeons and card leveling imo. However, hex doesn't want to lose the current player base by not introducing a new set. If I was king I would delay set 3 and make dungeons the top priority, however I can see why set 3 is coming first.

Xenavire
04-07-2015, 05:26 PM
Cost to buy 4x every card in 3 sets? I am guessing you could do it for under $1,800.

Don't even have to be much of a whale for that. Cheaper than my legacy deck.

This made me go look at my collection value (according to HexTCGBrowser). According to that site, my current collection value is about 2.5k (in dollars, assuming 100 plat = $1.) I doubt it is accurate, but it is neat to see such large numbers attached to my collection. ;)

funktion
04-07-2015, 05:28 PM
Going to just address the first point of this and that's in regard to the "whales & microtransaction games" aspect. This isn't a microtransaction game like that, it much more closely resembles the business model of a traditional TCG.

While same players might share your perspective about feeling like they're behind, Hex stands far more to lose by delaying things. They need to at some point set up a pretty strict development schedule for sets and be able to adhere to it. That is a ways off but progress is being made. Keeping the players they do have and reeling in new players are both important and neither should be ignored.

By and large, I don't agree with much of the logic going into the points of the OP.

My 2cents.

Thrawn
04-07-2015, 05:28 PM
Not going to bother actually getting involved other than to say "Please, Please, I beg CZE to release Set 3 as soon as possible and get on a regular, reliable release schedule."

Seraph_Hex
04-07-2015, 05:36 PM
There is 0 incentive to play proving grounds matches atm

And why would that change after the introduction of a ladder system? If there will ever be a ladder system I imagine it to be tied to the tourney system.

magic_gazz
04-07-2015, 05:45 PM
And why would that change after the introduction of a ladder system? If there will ever be a ladder system I imagine it to be tied to the tourney system.

I would hope it is somehow tied to both, or that there are 2 ladders, one for tournaments and one for PG matches.

Yoss
04-07-2015, 05:48 PM
Once Constructed finally goes Asynch, I'd think that should completely cover the competitive scene and stats could just be based on that. PG would just be for casual play.

knightofeffect
04-07-2015, 06:17 PM
I understand what the OP is saying, and I understand that point of view. I'm undecided on to the validity of it, but I think there might be potential for it even though the growth of the MTG playerbase is kind of a good counterpoint.

Overall, I'm not sure that the potential for it to be a valid point of view, versus the pros-cons comparison of releasing it ASAP or waiting till PvE Dungeons and the major tournament makes a compelling case for delaying the set.

Who know, perhaps the game will actually explode in popularity after the first legality rotation. I hope CZE and Gameforge are committed to the project for that timeframe.

Zophie
04-07-2015, 07:05 PM
Bottom line:

Myself, much like the majority of the average players, will probably never have a full playset of all the cards in any given set. Delaying Set 3 would only serve to hold back new content that would be more within the reach of the majority of players, and will hurt the game worse than the impact regular releases will have on the "whales".

Deathlock
04-07-2015, 07:27 PM
I agree with OP. Set 3 should be delayed, also I would like to see only 2 pvp sets per year (or 3 small sets). Why? The main reason - the game has so many things for players to do, and so many features are promised, that to enjoy Hex in all ways players should "live" in the game or to spend hundreds of dollars at the release of every set. I'm ok to spend money and I want to compete in tournaments, but I'm not a whale. Please, don't make Hex for whales only :)

plaguedealer
04-07-2015, 07:32 PM
I agree with OP. Set 3 should be delayed, also I would like to see only 2 pvp sets per year (or 3 small sets). Why? The main reason - the game has so many things for players to do, and so many features are promised, that to enjoy Hex in all ways players should "live" in the game or to spend hundreds of dollars at the release of every set. I'm ok to spend money and I want to compete in tournaments, but I'm not a whale. Please, don't make Hex for whales only :)

There is something to be said about this post. When pve really hits its stride, the amount of content to consume could be overwhelming even for the "whale".

Fateanomaly
04-07-2015, 07:34 PM
I only expect set 3 to hit around june.

magic_gazz
04-07-2015, 07:43 PM
I agree with OP. Set 3 should be delayed, also I would like to see only 2 pvp sets per year (or 3 small sets). Why? The main reason - the game has so many things for players to do, and so many features are promised, that to enjoy Hex in all ways players should "live" in the game or to spend hundreds of dollars at the release of every set. I'm ok to spend money and I want to compete in tournaments, but I'm not a whale. Please, don't make Hex for whales only :)

2 sets per year would be boring for some of us.

Again this whale talk is unfounded, you don't need to own everything.

Steelio
04-07-2015, 08:16 PM
I wasn't a KS backer. I spent a good deal on the game, probably more than on any other. I still don't have playsets of many cards! I only have a few playsets of set 2 cards [Oberon's Eulogy, Talysen...] but no playsets of tier 1 card [only 1 mastermoss, 0 vamp kings etc.]

I would like to see set 3 very much - But would I be able to participate in constructed? I could, but I couldn't make decks with the kind of high-calibre cards we are seeing in competitive play. I might get really lucky, but I would be even farther away from completing my playsets than I am now! At my guesstimation it would take 3 solid months to complete playsets of cards I don't have. But by that time, if set 3 is released fairly soon, set 4 would be well on the way and I would be even further!

So I don't know what to say. Asking for time to 'catch up' seems kind of foolish... But as someone who doesn't really buy cards and only drafts, it's kind of daunting! The flipside is that I am very excited for a new set of cards, and would very much like to draft with them. But if that was the rate sets were released, I don't think I could compete in constructed unless I either ran budget decks or splashed out on playsets of AoD/Mastermoss/Vamp king/CMK/Wrenlocke/Mastery of Time etc.

magic_gazz
04-07-2015, 08:22 PM
I wasn't a KS backer. I spent a good deal on the game, probably more than on any other. I still don't have playsets of many cards! I only have a few playsets of set 2 cards [Oberon's Eulogy, Talysen...] but no playsets of tier 1 card [only 1 mastermoss, 0 vamp kings etc.]

I would like to see set 3 very much - But would I be able to participate in constructed? I could, but I couldn't make decks with the kind of high-calibre cards we are seeing in competitive play. I might get really lucky, but I would be even farther away from completing my playsets than I am now! At my guesstimation it would take 3 solid months to complete playsets of cards I don't have. But by that time, if set 3 is released fairly soon, set 4 would be well on the way and I would be even further!

So I don't know what to say. Asking for time to 'catch up' seems kind of foolish... But as someone who doesn't really buy cards and only drafts, it's kind of daunting! The flipside is that I am very excited for a new set of cards, and would very much like to draft with them. But if that was the rate sets were released, I don't think I could compete in constructed unless I either ran budget decks or splashed out on playsets of AoD/Mastermoss/Vamp king/CMK/Wrenlocke/Mastery of Time etc.

Kaldheim

Champion: Bertram Cragraven

4 Construct Foreman
4 Gearsmith
4 War Machinist
1 Technical Genius
4 Electroid
3 Mimeobot
4 Pterobot
4 Charge Bot
4 Tectonic Megahulk
4 Construction Plans: Hornet Bot
4 Construction Plans: War Hulk
2 Hex Geode
9 Ruby Shard
9 Sapphire Shard

Reserves

4 Verdict of the Ancient Kings
3 Crushing Blow
4 Burn
3 Suppressive Fire
1 Time Ripple


Made multiple top 8's. Almost all commons and uncommons.

wolzarg
04-07-2015, 10:12 PM
I'm deeply confused by the fact that content would scare away whales. I mean i actually get people saying new players will find it daunting if there are 5 sets out but isn't the point of whales that they have the money to not care? Where is this supposed line for whales drawn? If they make up 90% of the income and represent 2% of the player base aren't we talking about people who will easily burn a few 1000$ every few months? Because if we are that is definitely enough to grab all the cards from boosters and AH which would make the whole point moot.

I'm not even arguing the point that you are wrong here just questioning the reasoning behind the logic. Me trying to get into legacy was a horrorshow because not only did i have to decide on a deck to play i would have to spend at least 100$ on my own and borrow cards from multiple people for basically every single deck i wanted to try. In the end it was so frustrating trying to find a deck and so expensive even tho i could recover my investment over time that i just gave up and stuck with standard. But if i had the money i could have just bought all the staples and after i decide sold them off at a minor loss which is what my more serious and monetarily blessed friends did.

nicosharp
04-07-2015, 10:18 PM
Oh gosh, please don't ask to stall development of one side of the game and think that will make the other side of the game launch faster or be best for the community. The fact of the matter is, if they can not continue to produce and launch the PvP content separately and on time, it will hurt the game as much as the delay and lag times of the PvE content. Launching one thing should not slow down the other. They need to find a way to develop both at the same time, and the game does need a consistent schedule of PvP set releases for it to be profitable.

Voormas
04-07-2015, 11:56 PM
I say bring out Set 3 even sooner so I can sink a ton of plat into packs and draft like a madman!

When I started playing Magic back during Urza's the fact that a new set would be out in 3 or so months wasn't a problem because that was also exciting as hell (think of all the new cards!), and the fact there was so many cards already in the game wasn't a problem because I could spend hours looking through commons boxes at the local game store going "wow I could build this kind of deck!"

Having a playset of everything is a really attractive goal (and one I myself hope to achieve!) but realistically that just isn't a thing for most TCG players

Skirovik
04-08-2015, 12:01 AM
Releasing a set every 4 months (3 times a year) would suit me just fine. I think Hex's current ideal schedule is every 3 months (4 times a year), right?

That would probably be just a tad too quick for me, personally, but I could definitely understand the reasoning for it.

Cernz
04-08-2015, 12:10 AM
Releasing a set every 4 months (3 times a year) would suit me just fine. I think Hex's current ideal schedule is every 3 months (4 times a year), right?

That would probably be just a tad too quick for me, personally, but I could definitely understand the reasoning for it.

i agree with you if all new sets would be as "big" as set1 + 2, but i guess the sets will be a bit smaller in future (or at least some new sets will be smaller) so 4 sets a year with less cards would be fine too, otherwise id stick with 3 sets a year.

Philip070380
04-08-2015, 12:12 AM
This COMPETITIVE GAME need a Ladder/Ranked. this is the most important and necessary addition to the game before the set 3 release. One set per 6 month is completely fine.

Philip070380
04-08-2015, 12:21 AM
I really believe some ranked ladder mode needs to be in the game before set 3. Reason: it adds so much replayability (shelf-life) to a new set. Currently people draft like crazy for a week or two and then leave the game, a ladder mode will have them sticking around much more.

More specific to your point though: do whales really need to have complete playsets (you only need 60 cards for a competitive deck) and won't there always be whales late to the party?

Agree !

Khazrakh
04-08-2015, 01:13 AM
In all honesty, I don't believe this whole "whale thing" applies to Hex.
In a typical F2P game you have 90% who never spend a dime, 8% who spend once and 2% whales. Hex is no typical F2P game though. While there always will be guys like Colin there is the whole PvP crowd that will (have to) spend money everytime a new set comes around. In my opinion entertaining those guys will be a lot more important than allowing some whales the time to complete their playset.

wolzarg
04-08-2015, 01:54 AM
Again i have to deeply question the twisted definition of whales. Why would they need time to complete the playset? Are we talking about remotely the same group of people here? The ones that need time to collect the set are either semi serious collectors or serious players with less than ideal amounts of money to spend.

I mean i know people who complete their playset in the first two to three weeks of a sets release and i don't even know if i would consider them whales.

katkillad
04-08-2015, 03:58 AM
No, please don't delay set 3. In fact, I want it as soon as possible.

Also I don't think the OP knows what a whale is.

MatWith1T
04-08-2015, 08:36 AM
Whales don't even have hands. They can't play cards.

Vorpal
04-08-2015, 08:54 AM
Future whales are not deterred by joining a game that is already in progress.

The idea that we shouldn't put out new sets because it might scare away new players has never been adequately supported.

plaguedealer
04-08-2015, 09:14 AM
We dont have this "problem" yet. But instead of arena, pretend that five dungeons were relesaed along with a raid. Would you want set 3 right now? I am not sure if I would. Obviously this is not the case and I am fine with set 3 coming soon. In the future it might be a different story.

DoctorJoe
04-08-2015, 09:35 AM
I can sort of see where the OP is coming from. In my youth as a casual MTG player, I found it frustrating that a new set came out before I could even collect the whole current set. Eventually I lost interest in the game because as a broke teenager in the late 90s, I didn't feel I could "keep up."

I returned to semi-competitive play about 15 years later and found a vastly different landscape. There was a lot more going on; FNMs at the local shops, an active community, a clear (if difficult) path to the higher levels of competitive play. As a less-broke adult, time became my limiting factor.

Hex is uniquely positioned to attract players on both ends of the spectrum. We can tell that they understand that we need a high profile competitive scene to maintain the competitive crowd, and CZE has experience with this already. Asynchronous competitive play adds another layer of accessibility for people looking to go from semi-competitive to higher levels of play. It's a lot easier to block out time for one game and if you qualify for a big event, make time in your schedule for it.

Part of maintaining an active and healthy competitive TCG environment is shaking up the metagame. This is most easily accomplished by introducing new cards. I would expect that we will eventually see 3-4 sets per year as most have mentioned. The time to develop a new set grows shorter as the existing effect code-base grows from added cards and equipment. Also relevant is that there have been no "reprints" either, which often represent a significant portion of a new TCG set.

On the opposite end of the spectrum you have players who were like me when I was younger and have more time and less opportunity to purchase cards they want. This is where I feel Hex really sets itself apart from its competitors. Not only is there non-competitive game mode (with more coming) that can earn you additional cards, there is an built-in system to allow you to use earnings from that game mode to move into the competitive game. I'm skeptical that you could ever realistically go totally F2P and never invest a dime and still compete at the highest level, but I do believe that it can significantly lower the barrier to entry.

I don't think delaying set 3 will be helpful to the game. This game will live or die on hype. New sets generate hype like crazy. Big tournaments generate hype. New game modes and content generate hype. Every time a new set or feature comes out, I have something new to help convert new players. Based on their actions so far, I think it's pretty clear that CZE understands this. I am confident that they have the knowledge and skill to continue growing the game.

Gwaer
04-08-2015, 09:44 AM
Even if they had released 5 dungeons and a raid I'd still be for set three and I'd desperately want to do both. However, the dungeons and raids would be there for a very long time to come and whe I need a break from set 3 pvp stuff I could use set 1, 2, 3, or any combination of any released set I like at my own pace there. So No, I dont think that PVP and pve releases should be staggered because of players, instead likely by marketing impact.

zadies
04-08-2015, 09:49 AM
I think set 3 will launch the same time you can start to earn tournie points... would make the most sense.

temporicide
04-08-2015, 10:01 AM
Before set 3 launches, I'd like to see a way to play Limited (Draft/Sealed) with older sets. With paper MtG (I'm not sure about Magic Online, since I've never played), there's nothing stopping a group from drafting older packs, especially if those packs are still widely available.

If set 3 (Armies of Myth) is going to start a new block, I'd expect that the new draft format will be triple Armies of Myth, and there won't be any use for my set 1 or set 2 packs apart from opening them or selling them.

I realize that having too many tournament types could split the player base even further (currently Competitive Draft seems to be the only queue that fires on a regular basis), and unfortunately I don't have a good answer to that. I guess we just need more people playing Hex! :)

nicosharp
04-08-2015, 10:06 AM
Before set 3 launches, I'd like to see a way to play Limited (Draft/Sealed) with older sets. With paper MtG (I'm not sure about Magic Online, since I've never played), there's nothing stopping a group from drafting older packs, especially if those packs are still widely available.

If set 3 (Armies of Myth) is going to start a new block, I'd expect that the new draft format will be triple Armies of Myth, and there won't be any use for my set 1 or set 2 packs apart from opening them or selling them.

I realize that having too many tournament types could split the player base even further (currently Competitive Draft seems to be the only queue that fires on a regular basis), and unfortunately I don't have a good answer to that. I guess we just need more people playing Hex! :)
It's already been confirmed - there will still be old format of 2/2/1, the new format will indeed be 3/3/3.
I'm fairly sure this will roll into Sealed as well.

Yewstance
04-08-2015, 10:28 AM
I don't agree with a variety of the OP's points, especially with the focus on 'whales' as the key demographic and means of financial development. Not in that I don't think they're valid or could work, but in that I feel that such a business strategy will not ultimately deliver as quality a game as many of us are hoping or expecting.

However, I would support the delaying of many 'new' features, such as the new set. Specifically, until existing issues are overcome within the game. I don't really want to spectate a constant influx of new features, new shiny toys and cards at the cost of balance, quality and the experience of the game (and, actually, the impression given to some new players).

Specifically, I'd like to see card bugs, AI quality, card presentation issues and possibly, if I may be so bold, an Auction House overhaul before a new set or new features such as mercenaries/chest opening/etc. I believe the developers responsible for implementing new card designs, such as that of a new set, would also be the same ones responsible for fixing some of these bugs - at least card-related ones.

Fortunately, by set 2's release, a lot of the notable set-1 card bugs/presentation issues were fixed, and set 2 bugs have been quashed over time, but more still remain, especially if you count presentation issues.

Solitary Exiles not stating what they've exiled. Luck sacks not stating their effect. Links on cards (such as a royal falconer's pets) either not showing up in the card text, or are not able to be clicked on. Text on a minimized card not always matching it when zoomed in (Daring Swordsman).

Card effects not represented visually nor in text (Death Sentence, some other buffs). I was playing Arena yesterday and an opposing Daring Swordsman had "this troop deals double damage" written twice (it had not been inspired or modified in any way) with the troop only dealing 2x damage as normal (not 4x).

Other misleading card text ("champion" meaning different things for Eternal Drifter vs, say, War Machinist). Faulty card text, especially for AI (Wild Root Dancer's charge power is supposed to reveal the top 5 cards of their deck, and yet they aren't, at least in my experience - just the plants are played).

And then there's the AI. Misunderstanding keywords (such as Crush), still holding back removal spells or other cards that could help or stop them from losing a game outright. Blocking in an extremely poor, non-optimal, fashion even when a player has no mana for a combat trick. Not understanding other troop qualities (like that their headless executioner can't block anyway - so they should attack when the opportunity presents itself, even if they're low on health) and do I have to mention Storm Clouds and other order-of-play effects, playing creatures with speed in their second main phase or cards that care about charges after they play their shard for the turn?

And the Auction House is self-explanatory. The inability to post multiple cards at once, or purchase multiple at once. Limited search functionality (can't search for 'lowest buyout price'), inability to see existing listing prices for an item as it's sold, inability to sort to search for equipment by card or mercenaries...

TL;DR - I believe refining existing features, quashing bugs, improving the AI (which has, fortunately, seemed to be improving with time and development so far) and correcting or adding new minor visual or textual details is important as generating first impressions to a new audience, as well as helpful for new players in general and generally suggests a game of a rather higher quality, and I would suggest fixing what functionality we have completely should be a priority before we add new cards, new functions and - by extension - new bugs to quash to put on a backlog.

hex_colin
04-08-2015, 10:51 AM
New sets pay for everything else everyone wants to see in the game. That's the undeniable truth of the situation. So, folks can make any argument they want for why they think new PVP sets should be delayed, but those arguments don't matter at all. The game must go on...

Zophie
04-08-2015, 10:59 AM
The game must go on...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKLMYZlbIb8&t=59s

plaguedealer
04-08-2015, 11:02 AM
I agree with collin that new sets fund additional content since pve is f2p. Not to be a "negative nancy" or "I am so awesome at the game" (I am more of a scrub then a expert), but I have gotten so much value out of kickstarter rewards/selling set 1 and set 2 cards that I will not need to pay anything for set 3. I am probably not the only one.

I guess what I am getting at is that set 3 may not get money from the "whales" because they don't need to go to the shop to buy plat right now.

Thrawn
04-08-2015, 11:30 AM
I guess what I am getting at is that set 3 may not get money from the "whales" because they don't need to go to the shop to buy plat right now.

Then the sooner they release set 3 the better so they can get set 4 released.

Set 4 by fall!

zadies
04-08-2015, 11:31 AM
Someone had to buy the plat that they made selling the stuff so there have been a new batch of people willing to spend money... saying the kickstarter people are the only whales is very very short sighted.

plaguedealer
04-08-2015, 11:34 AM
Obviously the kickstarter people are not the only "whales". I would imagine they are a big part of the "whale" population. Just to reiterate I have no problem with set 3 being released like today. Hex is a unique beast with pve and pvp and my thoughts on how things should be released in the future might change.

I also think the term whale is not correct, but using the term for this thread.

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 12:00 PM
Wont be a popular opinion but releasing sets is nothing but a cash grab at this stage IMO, there are countless things that dont work, countless missing features, plenty of bugs (even still in set 2 cards that were released months ago) and plenty of parts of the client that need vast improvement before releasing another set is thought about.

This is a game that generated 6 or 7 times its goal on kickstarter and has had an income since from selling a beta, If money is an issue for them at this stage that they need to keep putting out sets then I dread to think how things would be they had only raised the actual goal.

plaguedealer
04-08-2015, 12:03 PM
I don't think it is a cash grab(calling it that could be considered incendiary), set 2 draft is getting a little stale and alot of people want new content. I do agree that there is alot of development that needs to be done. I think I am going to take a break from this thread.

Homer if you are so unhappy, why are you still interested in this game? It seems like you just started posting last December.

sukebe
04-08-2015, 12:14 PM
HexEnt is doing something to make money so that they can continue to do all the things we want them to do...what a cash grab! (sarcasm)

A company needs to make money in order to continue to operate. Do you have any idea how much programmers are paid on average? You are aware that HexEnt employs many programmers right?

Not to mention this is a TCG. Regular new set releases are 100% necessary for a tcg to survive. If HexEnt cannot get to the point that new pvp sets release consistently then and only then will I be worried for this game.

Zophie
04-08-2015, 12:25 PM
Homer if you are so unhappy, why are you still interested in this game? It seems like you just started posting last December.

Well I think he enjoys the game, however his expectations are a bit skewed, and he can come off kind of negative because of it.

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 12:36 PM
I don't think it is a cash grab(calling it that could be considered incendiary), set 2 draft is getting a little stale and alot of people want new content. I do agree that there is alot of development that needs to be done. I think I am going to take a break from this thread.

Homer if you are so unhappy, why are you still interested in this game? It seems like you just started posting last December.

I like the game itself, the way things are ran and how certain things are prioritized as well as the speed things are moving at are questionable at best, the estimated delivery on the kickstarter page for example was September 2013 and there is countless parts of those missing still 18 months later, on that basis I think any paying customer is well within their rights to raise concerns, is that not what a forum is for?

The community is as much of a problem as anything here tbh, if people wernt so easy pleased and accepting of the terrible initial time estimates and the continual delays of everything and so on and so on and stopped jumping to their defence every time me or someone else raises a very valid concern on the forums things might get done a bit quicker, people tend to move quicker under pressure.

I am sure they are working hard and we would all like to see the game be a sucess etc but the CZE/HEX can do no wrong ever crowd on here is getting tiresome, there is plenty of reason for criticism of the game right now and plenty of things that can be improved up on.

Tazelbain
04-08-2015, 12:38 PM
>You are aware that HexEnt employs many programmers right?
In California no less.

Anyway, frequent sets releases are a sign of a successful TCG. I want Hex to be a successful TCG.

dogmod
04-08-2015, 12:51 PM
I like the game itself, the way things are ran and how certain things are prioritized as well as the speed things are moving at are questionable at best, the estimated delivery on the kickstarter page for example was September 2013 and there is countless parts of those missing still 18 months later, on that basis I think any paying customer is well within their rights to raise concerns, is that not what a forum is for?

The community is as much of a problem as anything here tbh, if people wernt so easy pleased and accepting of the terrible initial time estimates and the continual delays of everything and so on and so on and stopped jumping to their defence every time me or someone else raises a very valid concern on the forums things might get done a bit quicker, people tend to move quicker under pressure.

I am sure they are working hard and we would all like to see the game be a sucess etc but the CZE/HEX can do no wrong ever crowd on here is getting tiresome, there is plenty of reason for criticism of the game right now and plenty of things that can be improved up on.

Pretty sure that they are aware and everyone else on the forum is aware that they missed their kickstarter deadline. They have apologized for that. Kicking and beating and stabbing and molesting a dead horse is why you get the response you do. Not providing constructive feedback and just parroting your own points over and over is why you get the response you do.

People get bored with content and stop putting money in. I imagine decreasing set 2 booster sales and platinum purchases are much more of a motivator for them than people bitching on the forums, as it should be since, you know, they need to eat.

Badgering on your pet peeve of the AH repeatedly without anything added to the topic and going from thread to thread to do so is why you get a negative response.

nicosharp
04-08-2015, 12:54 PM
Well I think he enjoys the game, however his expectations are a bit skewed, and he can come off kind of negative because of it.
Gotta wait for my decoder ring in the cracker jacks before I can solve this puzzle. PvP pays for everything else. So.Cal living ain't cheap!

plaguedealer
04-08-2015, 12:55 PM
Homer, believe me when I say that I am not one of the people that thinks crypto is doing everything right. I have gotten over heated arguments over many things.

You are right that alot still needs to be done. I for one am not smart enough to help program this game and it has to be daunting. Calling things a cash grab is a little over the line however.

magic_gazz
04-08-2015, 01:04 PM
Calling things a cash grab just shows everyone what sort of person you are and how you think.

I don't think giving a large number of customers what they want is a cash grab, but maybe I am the one who is wrong.

Thrawn
04-08-2015, 01:11 PM
If set 3 is released early, buggy, and awful as a whole then we can maybe call it a cash grab. If it's the same quality as set 1 it's just normal progression and set release, the most important part of a TCG.

The more important topic is when do I get my exalted status and vanity card?

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 01:24 PM
Calling things a cash grab just shows everyone what sort of person you are and how you think.

I don't think giving a large number of customers what they want is a cash grab, but maybe I am the one who is wrong.

What that I think like someone who isnt just going to worship everything CZE does and apply a bit of logic to the situation?

They claimed they needed 300k to implement everything that was advertised on kickstarter, 2.2 million (plus whatever has been raised since from sales) and 18 months after the date given that still hasnt been done and now you have people using "they need the money" as a justification for putting out more cards before A) content that was advertised to be delivered 18 months ago or B) fixing the content that is either not working or nowhere near an acceptable standard?

If money is an issue for the game and things are being prioritized in whichever order makes them the most money, after they have raised 6 or 7 times more than their "goal" that was required for the game then there is a fundamental problem somewhere.

Zophie
04-08-2015, 01:30 PM
I like how he just ignores the fact that CZE, and Cory Jones in particular, have addressed the original estimates from the Kickstarter several times now, and we all have much better expectations on the development at this point, but he'll just keep on blatantly disregarding anything that's happened since then because it's easier to support his negativity that way.

http://i.imgur.com/IQw5EkS.gif

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 01:32 PM
I like how he just ignores the fact that CZE, and Cory Jones in particular, have addressed the original estimates from the Kickstarter several times now, and we all have much better expectations on the development at this point, but he'll just keep on blatantly disregarding anything that's happened since then because it's easier to support his negativity that way.

http://i.imgur.com/IQw5EkS.gif

To be honest, I've never seen any of this, got a link?

zadies
04-08-2015, 01:33 PM
Given they had contracted out the programming and those individuals miss lead them as to how far along the code base was and then they had to go rewrite that entire code base your irritation could just as easily be directed at that third party then CZE, but CZE took responsibility for it and apologized so I can see why you might want to be irritated with them.

They could have easily just released the product that they had originally and the game would have died a horrid death and we'd be out the money instead of them actually working to deliver on their promises... and here I thought I was the ass on the forums.

Also your so called QOL improvements to the ah could implode the economy before there are card sinks and a larger player base so prioritizing them isn't a good idea because if peoples cards collections were suddenly worth 1/3 of what they are now and they had a bunch of unimplemented features it would be much worse then a fully implemented game then the precived value drop.

And it really doesn't matter if the improvements did or did not implode the economy given there are arguments on both sides of the issue taking the risk isn't worth the potential harm.

plaguedealer
04-08-2015, 01:39 PM
Homer, watch the five shard interview with Cory, there is a discussion about missed deadlines. Cory has posted about the missed deadlines and even offered kickstarter refunds for a period of time. Crypto has adrressed the missed deadlines many times and it doesn't take much effort to see that.

Granted the missed deadlines are unfortunate, but it has been adressed.

Zophie
04-08-2015, 01:41 PM
To be honest, I've never seen any of this, got a link?

There are several interviews with Cory where the topic of development hell has come up, and they acknowledged that they were overly optimistic when setting the original estimates. They were extremely ambitious goals and in reality it was a mistake to set them like that, but that was a long time ago and they owned up to it and apologized. Since then they have done a lot better at giving us more reasonable expectations and updates have been coming to the game a bit more frequently each time. I don't have any doubts that we'll see Set 3 in the next couple months, and the first batch of Dungeons in the months following that, perhaps by Fall. I know I tend to be part of the "positive crowd" you say you're so tired of, but you know what? Hex is pretty fun as it is, and I'm enjoying what we have and look forward to more. I don't need instant gratification, I know that games take time to make, especially if they're done right, and I understand that I got in at the ground floor and we haven't had our dreams fully realized yet but they will in time.

My advice is enjoy the game for what it is, and if you get bored of that take a break for a while and come back when there are more updates.

katkillad
04-08-2015, 02:43 PM
Being critical of Hex/Cryptozoic is fine, but a cash grab this is not.

magic_gazz
04-08-2015, 02:49 PM
3243

3244

3245

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 03:21 PM
This is exactly the attitude that I refereed to earlier, HEX can do no wrong, pitchforks out for anyone who can apply a bit of logic to the situation rather than sticking their head in the sand and ignoring whats going on in front of them.

Some of you are legitimately brainwashed.

Xenavire
04-08-2015, 03:27 PM
This is exactly the attitude that I refereed to earlier, HEX can do no wrong, pitchforks out for anyone who can apply a bit of logic to the situation rather than sticking their head in the sand and ignoring whats going on in front of them.

Some of you are legitimately brainwashed.

It isn't about being brainwashed, it is about seeing a witch-hunt for what it is. A small amount of research debunks several of the claims you have made, and while the rest may be legitimate, they aren't considered urgent by most people.

That said, I do see where you are coming from, I just happen to disagree. The game is good, right now, and is worth playing as-is. And it is meant to get better - thats enough reason for me to support HexEnt. And I am willing to bet that most people support the game simply because it is either good right now, or they expect it to be good later. I hardly call that brainwashing - I call that having a worthwhile product.

Zophie
04-08-2015, 03:30 PM
This is exactly the attitude that I refereed to earlier, HEX can do no wrong, pitchforks out for anyone who can apply a bit of logic to the situation rather than sticking their head in the sand and ignoring whats going on in front of them.

There's a difference between constructive feedback and arbitrarily negative criticism. You are clearly skilled at the latter. Just a tip though: When your only argument left is to insult the community, you should probably back out of the conversation.

For the record, I applied logic to the situation and have still found the progress of Hex to be reasonable given everything I know, and I certainly don't need to put my head in the sand to maintain this stance.

XagoTrunk
04-08-2015, 03:36 PM
Semi-whale here, I think a new set every 3-4 months is overwhelming and unrealistic. I'd like to see a new set between every 6-10 months to allow for thorough playtime and collection of the new set; and also to give enough breathing room for the devs to be creative with cards without worrying about deadlines.

magic_gazz
04-08-2015, 03:40 PM
Semi-whale here, I think a new set every 3-4 months is overwhelming and unrealistic. I'd like to see a new set between every 6-10 months to allow for thorough playtime and collection of the new set; and also to give enough breathing room for the devs to be creative with cards without worrying about deadlines.

6-10 months would be horrible.

Other games can make new sets in 3-4 months so I don't see how it is unrealistic and overwhelming. Look at any of the big card games that have existed over the years, they all use a similar release schedule.

katkillad
04-08-2015, 03:43 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but nobody is a "whale" or close to being one if you think a set every 3-4 months would be too expensive for you to keep up with. People are using that term pretty loose in this thread.

Xenavire
04-08-2015, 03:46 PM
Semi-whale here, I think a new set every 3-4 months is overwhelming and unrealistic. I'd like to see a new set between every 6-10 months to allow for thorough playtime and collection of the new set; and also to give enough breathing room for the devs to be creative with cards without worrying about deadlines.

I just finished my set 2 playset today, and I have spent very little in the past few months. And considering a full set is not required, a whale should be able to easily handle buying at least 1-2 decks worth of premuim cards with little to no impact on them in a 3-4 month period.

As it stands, a true whale should be able to get a full set in that time if they so wished (hell, most would likely buy 90% of the set in the first week), so I would say that a 4 month rotation is the longest we should go without new sets. After all, that investment will be available in PvE forever, meaning that even after a set cycles approx 2 years after it launches, you can still get plenty of use out of it, further reducing the 'sting' of regular set releases.

Zophie
04-08-2015, 03:49 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but nobody is a "whale" or close to being one if you think a set every 3-4 months would be too expensive for you to keep up with. People are using that term pretty loose in this thread.

Agreed, if you can't keep up with regular releases in such a way, you're probably not a whale.

Here's a helpful diagram to help you identify what a whale looks like:

http://i.imgur.com/DcAlpjj.jpg

wolzarg
04-08-2015, 04:41 PM
3243

3244

3245
Tasty whine two rugged wrestler. Am i doing this right?

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 04:56 PM
There's a difference between constructive feedback and arbitrarily negative criticism. You are clearly skilled at the latter. Just a tip though: When your only argument left is to insult the community, you should probably back out of the conversation.

For the record, I applied logic to the situation and have still found the progress of Hex to be reasonable given everything I know, and I certainly don't need to put my head in the sand to maintain this stance.


We have very different definitions of reasonable clearly, to the vast majority of people (in general, not in this community where anyone who isnt a complete fanboy is looked down on) a half functioning game thats 18 months (and counting) late is far from that.

That isnt an insult btw, its just saying how they are, this does not just apply to me, there are new players that come on here and are shot down because they think things should be X instead of Y, plenty of you on here just have the mindset of everything CZE/HEX come up with is the right way, because they came up with it that way and it should be defended at all costs, without factoring in anything else, countless other examples of it all over the forum as well, then a mod usually comes and locks the thread if the negative side is winning the argument. (See the F2P thread locked recently)

For this community to grow, it has to learn to be accepting of criticism of the game and differentiation opinions, any thread where anyone says anything negative about the game is completely ruined by arguments like this one dragging it off topic because anyone who says anything negative is jumped on by 5 fanboys and usually called a troll at some stage too with some unfunny meme thrown in for good measure, its cringe worthy, its like half of you want a community full of sheep that cant think for themselves and never have an opinion beyond "HEX is doing everything right" and want to drive anyone who differs from that out.

You and some other head in the sand folks not liking or agreeing with my feedback does not mean it is not constructive also

magic_gazz
04-08-2015, 05:04 PM
Homer the problem with you is you are just making stuff up and arguing on your own.

I am sure that most of us are aware there are problems, but there are a lot of good things too. That doesn't make people "head in the sand fan boys", it means they are having balanced opinions.

Is the game as far along as we would like? No its not. Cory himself would like the game to be further along than it is, but that is life.

Constantly being negative and complaining about the features we don't have is not going to make them magically appear.

Gwaer
04-08-2015, 05:04 PM
You've no clue what you're talking about. Games are many years late nearly constantly. Usually the big blockbusters are late. Often they're very good and have a great reception. And those are games that were much further along in development when the dates where announced. The best thing you can do is forget the kickstarter dates. They were so wrong about those dates that they're absurd. They've admitted they were so far off that it was ridiculous. We're all very sorry the game is not developing to your speed expectations. But it's developing much faster than most games from the point it was at to now.

Yoss
04-08-2015, 05:09 PM
I'd like to see 3 sets per year, and PvE also coming out with a new dungeon (with its raid boss) about 6 times a year (or in batches that amount to that same quantity on average).

That'is long term steady state I'm talking about. Near term, Hex should continue what they're doing, which is to have a spreadsheet with every task and feature on it, ranked by importance. If Set 3 is more important according to their analysis, it should go ahead. I want ALL the features, but I know I won't get them all at once.

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 05:11 PM
You've no clue what you're talking about. Games are many years late nearly constantly. Usually the big blockbusters are late. Often they're very good and have a great reception. And those are games that were much further along in development when the dates where announced. The best thing you can do is forget the kickstarter dates. They were so wrong about those dates that they're absurd. They've admitted they were so far off that it was ridiculous. We're all very sorry the game is not developing to your speed expectations. But it's developing much faster than most games from the point it was at to now.

Blockbuster games aint funded by kickstarter and people dont make payments for them this long before release, completely irrelevant comparison.

Find me another example of a kickstarter game raising 6-7 times its goal and then being this late to back up this argument?

Thrawn
04-08-2015, 05:13 PM
... For this community to grow, it has to learn to be accepting of criticism of the game and differentiation opinions, any thread where anyone says anything negative about the game is completely ruined by arguments like this one dragging it off topic because anyone who says anything negative is jumped on by 5 fanboys and usually called a troll at some stage too with some unfunny meme thrown in for good measure, its cringe worthy, its like half of you want a community full of sheep that cant think for themselves and never have an opinion beyond "HEX is doing everything right" and want to drive anyone who differs from that out.
...

You're not completely wrong. Anything on the forums that isn't complete and utter support of everything is usually classified as being a negative troll that doesn't contribute. It mostly is just a big positive reinforcement echo chamber with out much real discussion.

However, you are way off the topic of saying Set 3 would be a money grab. That's not something that people are arguing against simply to be in defense of the game. You're largely ignoring a lot of stuff being said against it and simply calling out people who disagree with you and shifting the argument to stuff like the Kickstarter dates which everyone knows now were a joke. Set 3 being released will be one of the mots important things in the next few months. If the AH or chat doesn't get improved for a year, that would suck a lot, but the game would go on. If Set 3 doesn't get released for a year? The game possibly dies.

plaguedealer
04-08-2015, 05:17 PM
Homer are you a kickstarter? If not, why do you care what was promised back in 2013? Camelot Unchained missed its goal regarding when the game would be playable. Shroud of the Avatar has missed many goals in my mind regarding development. Star Citizen had to push back the dog fighting by a few months.

After the kickstarter, hex ent redesigned the entire engine into the Unity framework. This is one of the major reason for the delays.

Yoss
04-08-2015, 05:20 PM
Blockbuster games aint funded by kickstarter and people dont make payments for them this long before release, completely irrelevant comparison.

Find me another example of a kickstarter game raising 6-7 times its goal and then being this late to back up this argument?

Double Fine Adventure
Not yet shipped [as of dec 2012]
Estimated delivery:October 2012
Actual delivery:Pending [first installment came out Jan 2014]
Raised:$3.3 million
"Here's my promise to you: Either the game will be great, or it will be a spectacular failure," Greg Rice says on a video promoting his Double Fine Adventure Kickstarter campaign. "What could possibly go wrong?"

The answer: Too much enthusiasm, leading to a massively pushed-back ship date.

The company, which sought to make a classic "point-and-click adventure" computer game, hit its $400,000 goal in a mere eight hours.

"Immediately, this became a very different project," Rice told CNNMoney. "Originally it was three people working for six months on a bite-sized game."

Instead, the Double Fine Adventure team expanded to 12 people, and the project's scale grew to include support for character voices and multiple platforms, including PC, Mac, iOS, Android and even Linux.

Rice says the new ship date is "a bit in flux," but the company is aiming for summer or fall 2013.

Game was subsequently renamed and delivered the first installment of gameplay over a year late. It is still in development.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Age

Happy now?

hacky
04-08-2015, 05:26 PM
Game was subsequently renamed and delivered the first installment of gameplay over a year late. It is still in development.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Age

Happy now?

You and I pulled out the exact same example. Here's a direct comparison of dates.

Double Fine Adventure (Broken Age)
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/doublefine/double-fine-adventure/description

KS end: march 2012
KS estimated delivery (full product): october 2012 (7 months after KS end)
actual delivery of part 1: january 2014 (22 months)
actual delivery of full product: april 2015 (37 months)

HEX: Shards of Fate
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/description

KS end: june 2013
KS estimated delivery (beta): september 2013 (4 months after KS end)
actual delivery of beta: april 2014 (10 months)
actual delivery of release product: ??? 2015? (22-30 months if 2015)

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 05:33 PM
You're not completely wrong. Anything on the forums that isn't complete and utter support of everything is usually classified as being a negative troll that doesn't contribute. It mostly is just a big positive reinforcement echo chamber with out much real discussion.

However, you are way off the topic of saying Set 3 would be a money grab. That's not something that people are arguing against simply to be in defense of the game. You're largely ignoring a lot of stuff being said against it and simply calling out people who disagree with you and shifting the argument to stuff like the Kickstarter dates which everyone knows now were a joke. Set 3 being released will be one of the mots important things in the next few months. If the AH or chat doesn't get improved for a year, that would suck a lot, but the game would go on. If Set 3 doesn't get released for a year? The game possibly dies.

I havnt mentioned anything in this thread about the AH, or anything else really, or suggested that set 3 should be a year away though have I? my main argument was against those claiming set 3 should be done next for financial reasons.

How many games have 3 full sets before release really? I'd hazard a guess that its unheared of.

Features that were advertised nearly 2 years ago that caused people to back the game should be implemented before new cards, cards that people have already paid for should be fully working before new cards, doing anything else makes it a cash grab in my opinion, thats not to say Set 3 should be a year away, just that everything else should be or should have been done quicker, the current progress is snail paced with things being put in a questionable at best order of priority.

Look at the last couple of updates yet more AAs and some previews of vanity cards, is there really not a higher priority than that people could be spending time on?

plaguedealer
04-08-2015, 05:38 PM
How many games have 3 full sets before release really? I'd hazard a guess that its unheared of.

There is nothing identical to this game on the market, that is a reality, it is a very unique beast. I wouldn't mind if you answered my question above.

wolzarg
04-08-2015, 06:03 PM
I havnt mentioned anything in this thread about the AH, or anything else really, or suggested that set 3 should be a year away though have I? my main argument was against those claiming set 3 should be done next for financial reasons.

How many games have 3 full sets before release really? I'd hazard a guess that its unheared of.

Features that were advertised nearly 2 years ago that caused people to back the game should be implemented before new cards, cards that people have already paid for should be fully working before new cards, doing anything else makes it a cash grab in my opinion, thats not to say Set 3 should be a year away, just that everything else should be or should have been done quicker, the current progress is snail paced with things being put in a questionable at best order of priority.

Look at the last couple of updates yet more AAs and some previews of vanity cards, is there really not a higher priority than that people could be spending time on?

HotS have released 3 new heroes in beta and more are coming clearly this will be a daunting thing for new players. They also keep releasing new maps and they haven't even gone to open beta yet. You should go on their forums and enlighten them as to how this is bad and they should feel bad considering it should have been out last year.

Zophie
04-08-2015, 06:18 PM
HotS have released 3 new heroes in beta and more are coming clearly this will be a daunting thing for new players. They also keep releasing new maps and they haven't even gone to open beta yet. You should go on their forums and enlighten them as to how this is bad and they should feel bad considering it should have been out last year.

In fairness, the only 3 heroes that matter are Sylvanas, Valla, and Nova :p

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 06:28 PM
There is nothing identical to this game on the market, that is a reality, it is a very unique beast. I wouldn't mind if you answered my question above.

Yes I backed, Pro player tier

as far as the others go, I have no idea how HOTS works really to be honest I never got around to trying it, but is it really as much for a new player to take in as 3 sets of hex cards would be? I very much doubt it.

magic_gazz
04-08-2015, 06:31 PM
Yes I backed, Pro player tier

as far as the others go, I have no idea how HOTS works really to be honest I never got around to trying it, but is it really as much for a new player to take in as 3 sets of hex cards would be? I very much doubt it.

New players don't need to take in 3 sets.

Set 3 is the start of a new block, they can ignore set 1 and 2

Thrawn
04-08-2015, 06:38 PM
as far as the others go, I have no idea how HOTS works really to be honest I never got around to trying it, but is it really as much for a new player to take in as 3 sets of hex cards would be? I very much doubt it.

The learning curve for a brand new player jumping into DotA 2, EvE or a number of other games is way steeper than jumping into Hex with 6 active sets would be and those games are all doing just fine.

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 06:41 PM
New players don't need to take in 3 sets.

Set 3 is the start of a new block, they can ignore set 1 and 2

What if that new player wants to play the market? or collect every card, or play in PG (assuming your free to use anything there) or play the arena which is full of set 1 and 2 cards? or plenty of other scenarios where they cant just ignore it? Is the tutorial not full of set 1 cards also?

Its a bit of a stretch to suggest they can just ignore it, if that person wants to draft only or play in constructed only then yes, but that is a highly unlikely scenario for a new player to be in straight away.

Thrawn
04-08-2015, 06:44 PM
What if that new player wants to play the market? or collect every card, or play in PG (assuming your free to use anything there) or play the arena which is full of set 1 and 2 cards? or plenty of other scenarios where they cant just ignore it? Is the tutorial not full of set 1 cards also?

If that's a real issue then Hex can NEVER release a new set EVER because new players will always be coming into the game.

Xenavire
04-08-2015, 06:44 PM
Features that were advertised nearly 2 years ago that caused people to back the game should be implemented before new cards, cards that people have already paid for should be fully working before new cards

I hate to do this, but I have a nit to pick - you say that only advertised features should come, yes? Well, heres some news for you - set 3 packs have been promised to KS backers. By definition, they would only be 'crossing lines' by going to set 4 before delivering 'other features'. (And I am sure they probably will, out of necessity, just like set 2 came before other features and set 3 will too.)

That said, if they wanted to push back set 3 for exactly 30 days to push double backs, chests, and guilds, all in one go, I would be all for it. But any delays longer than that would start to be detrimental to the game.

magic_gazz
04-08-2015, 06:45 PM
What if that new player wants to play the market? or collect every card, or play in PG (assuming your free to use anything there) or play the arena which is full of set 1 and 2 cards? or plenty of other scenarios where they cant just ignore it? Is the tutorial not full of set 1 cards also?

Its a bit of a stretch to suggest they can just ignore it, if that person wants to draft only or play in constructed only then yes, but that is a highly unlikely scenario for a new player to be in straight away.

None of the things you said matter.

They don't need set 1 or 2 cards to play in PG or Arena.

Playing the market has nothing to do with how many sets there are.

If they want to collect every card then they are delusional/very good or a whale, for anyone else it is not happening.

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 06:50 PM
None of the things you said matter.

They don't need set 1 or 2 cards to play in PG or Arena.

Playing the market has nothing to do with how many sets there are.

If they want to collect every card then they are delusional/very good or a whale, for anyone else it is not happening.

So you think new players are going to go into the arena or PG with their set 3 cards, and just be oblivious to what the set 1 and 2 cards the AI/Person is using against them do? And they wont have to read them as they are playing etc?

Are new starter decks suddenly going to be coming out with these set 3 cards also? (This ones a genuine question, if not add that to the list)

If the arena and tutorial etc are updated the second set 3 is released and all set 1 and 2 cards are removed and set 3 was forced in the PG you might have a point.


If that's a real issue then Hex can NEVER release a new set EVER because new players will always be coming into the game.

I'm not saying that at all though am I? Just at the moment, the community is very small as it is, I sat in a draft queue for 35 mins last night for example, the game should be simple for new players at this stage where it isnt even released surely?

Thrawn
04-08-2015, 06:57 PM
I'm not saying that at all though am I? Just at the moment, the community is very small as it is, I sat in a draft queue for 35 mins last night for example, the game should be simple for new players at this stage where it isnt even released surely?

How does the game ever get to whatever size is ok with you to release a new set if it stagnates and loses players due to lack of new content?

Deja vu, I seem to remember having these same discussions about Set 2 being late with some of the very people in this thread saying Set 3 needs to be released.

Xenavire
04-08-2015, 07:05 PM
How does the game ever get to whatever size is ok with you to release a new set if it stagnates and loses players due to lack of new content?

Deja vu, I seem to remember having these same discussions about Set 2 being late with some of the very people in this thread saying Set 3 needs to be released.

For what it is worth, Set 2 was the next feature at the time and was just taking forever, and most of the people on the 'other' side were just saying to chill (not true across the board of course, but by and large.) The reverse is true here - people want set 3 later, and we see the upcoming release as the 'correct' time, and see no reason for a delay.


Homer - I just want to point out that players consume content at insane rates. Ignoring the monetary value that people may attribute to the 'bare minimum' (probably via faulty assumptions), I would wager that we could have 10 concurrent sets and still have some newer players catching up, and even demanding new content within a few set releases. Playing catch-up is often the easiest thing to do in TCG's, since you can avoid 'crap' cards that were unknown at the time of launch, etc etc.

For every argument to delay, there is one or more reasons to release it on time, so I think this discussion is going nowhere except a sad thread closure (as often happens.) But my pair of pennies? Release as close to on time as possible, and get the hype train started on the set release event (as I assume there will be one.)

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 07:11 PM
How does the game ever get to whatever size is ok with you to release a new set if it stagnates and loses players due to lack of new content?

Deja vue, I seem to remember having these same discussions about Set 2 being late with some of the very people in this thread saying Set 3 needs to be released.

Content does not = cards. from a PVP standpoint. Things like a Async constructed, or a ladder or some kind of ranking system for example would add more than a 3rd set at the moment IMO.

I cant even remember the last time I played a constructed game, if there was some kind of competitive system, I would play it alot more, It sucks that you cant just jump on HEX for a quick game that means something without hours commitment.

Unless you have an entire weekend free at the moment for hideously long community ran events there is very little to do constructed wise with all these sets you want them to keep throwing at us other than draft and constructed tournaments (which take even longer than drafts because they dont fill that quick).

The above example is using the hardcore TCG player whos willing to put 3-4 hours uninterrupted into playing a constructed tournament or a draft, the casual player who isnt willing to put in that much of a time commitment has literally nothing other than pointless proving ground matches, this is more of a problem than only having 2 sets out if the game wishes to grow.

Yoss
04-08-2015, 07:17 PM
I actually agree that Asynch Competitive Constructed would be a great feature to get added. However, prerequisite for that is Asynch Sealed (they've said so). That means ACC isn't coming any time soon, unless they've changed plans. To me, based on in-person dev discussion, ACC seems the simpler feature to implement, so I'm actually not sure why they're doing Asynch Sealed first.

Xenavire
04-08-2015, 07:21 PM
Content does not = cards. from a PVP standpoint. Things like a Async constructed, or a ladder or some kind of ranking system for example would add more than a 3rd set at the moment IMO.

Unless you have an entire weekend free at the moment for hideously long community ran events there is very little to do constructed wise with all these sets you want them to keep throwing at us other than draft and constructed tournaments (which take even longer than drafts because they dont fill that quick).

The above example is using the hardcore TCG player whos willing to put 3-4 hours uninterrupted into playing a constructed tournament or a draft, the casual player who isnt willing to put in that much of a time commitment has literally nothing other than pointless proving ground matches, this is more of a problem than only having 2 sets out if the game wishes to grow.

If you honestly think that getting new sets won't help constructed, you are unfamiliar with how TCG's work - the more options players have, the more diverse the metagame, and the more people play (by and large. That is not to say those other features wouldn't help, because they would.)

It really isn't as black and white as people are making it out, because Homer is right - we do need those features. His issue though, is the ordering - set 3 is needed to tide us over for the next batch of content. As much as I love arena, I have run out of constructive things to do other than just farm gold and gear. With set 3 I would have 25-~ new cards to build with, instantly refreshing my interest in arena (new decks for testing), drafts/sealed, and hell, maybe even constructed.

However, adding a ladder, or asynch? Neither would interest me in the slightest. I see where you are coming from, and as misguided as it is, it is an admirable sentiment... But set 3 is globally useful. The other features are much less so. And what's more, new sets make old content more interesting, which serves more purposes than other new content.

So while you are right about what we need, you are definitely wrong about the when and how.

Thrawn
04-08-2015, 07:25 PM
Content does not = cards. from a PVP standpoint.

Yes, it does. That's not even a debatable point. Yes, things like new formats and such are also content, but for PvP new sets objectively = new content.

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 07:32 PM
If you honestly think that getting new sets won't help constructed, you are unfamiliar with how TCG's work - the more options players have, the more diverse the metagame, and the more people play (by and large. That is not to say those other features wouldn't help, because they would.)

It really isn't as black and white as people are making it out, because Homer is right - we do need those features. His issue though, is the ordering - set 3 is needed to tide us over for the next batch of content. As much as I love arena, I have run out of constructive things to do other than just farm gold and gear. With set 3 I would have 25-~ new cards to build with, instantly refreshing my interest in arena (new decks for testing), drafts/sealed, and hell, maybe even constructed.

However, adding a ladder, or asynch? Neither would interest me in the slightest. I see where you are coming from, and as misguided as it is, it is an admirable sentiment... But set 3 is globally useful. The other features are much less so. And what's more, new sets make old content more interesting, which serves more purposes than other new content.

So while you are right about what we need, you are definitely wrong about the when and how.

The current metagame is mostly decided by what works in day and a half long events that run twice a month (or less?)

I appreciate some people like these events, and credit to those who spend the time running them, but the reality is the length of time they take excludes a lot of people who have very little to do constructed wise on the game.

For me personally, I collected a full set 1 set before the set 2 release, and ended up thinking "for what?" and selling it because I had no motivation to play pointless PG matches, Drafts are always better value if doing a tournament and I dont have a day and half free at a weekend to enter the community events, I now just sell everything after drafting and have a pile of platinum, which isnt doing anything either until theres a reason to play constructed that dont take a day and a half, I cant be the only person in this situation.

There is not enough to do constructed wise no matter how many cards you throw at it, that is more of an issue than having "only" 2 sets, IMO of course your welcome to disagree.

chromus
04-08-2015, 07:38 PM
To me, all this 'Please delay the next Set or see new players be overwhelmed' talk is nonsense.

I discovered the world of Magic when a friend showed me MTGO on his computer. At the time, there were 7(!) Sets out on the client (IPA+OTJ+7ED I believe). Not for one moment did I think 'Man... I got so much catching up to do, how will I ever get all these cards?!'. My main thoughts were 'What a great game with so many cards to build decks from!', 'How do I get better and what decks should I build to kick some ass?!' and 'Is there a way to level the playing field if I don't want to invest a fortune to be competitive?'. I ended up building a semi-competitive Reanimator netdeck. I got beat most of the time but when it worked, oh man was it fun! I also discovered Draft but more importantly the awesome League mode (=Async Sealed) where everyone played on equal ground.

Hex is only 2 Sets in (soon to be 3). There exists a Draft and Sealed mode where the playing field is leveled. One can make a competitive deck for under $50. There is PvE for beginners/F2P players. AND there is a robust trading system in the Auction House to make the most out of your cards (...and turn your time into profit if need be ;) ).The tools and game modes are already there for the new players to enjoy this game - no matter how much or little money they want to spend. Having another Set, or 2, or 5 out will not change any of that.

Your 'whale' argument: Whales don't become whales overnight. First, they try the basic game...then they try the different modes of play and start getting into it. If they really like the game, they keep investing more and more until they make it a goal to own everything. If they have reached that point, it won't matter if there are 2 or 20 sets out. They're hooked, they're addicted, they can't get enough and they can afford to spend to feed their desires (also note: you don't need even close to having all the cards to be competitive in any of the formats). In fact, the better your game is and the more content you offer, the more whales you will eventually attract and the more those whales will spend and help you grow your game.

TLDR: Release Set 3 as soon as you are able Hex Ent! :)

Xenavire
04-08-2015, 07:47 PM
The current metagame is mostly decided by what works in day and a half long events that run twice a month (or less?)

I appreciate some people like these events, and credit to those who spend the time running them, but the reality is the length of time they take excludes a lot of people who have very little to do constructed wise on the game.

For me personally, I collected a full set 1 set before the set 2 release, and ended up thinking "for what?" and selling it because I had no motivation to play pointless PG matches, Drafts are always better value if doing a tournament and I dont have a day and half free at a weekend to enter the community events, I now just sell everything after drafting and have a pile of platinum, which isnt doing anything either until theres a reason to play constructed that dont take a day and a half, I cant be the only person in this situation.

There is not enough to do constructed wise no matter how many cards you throw at it, that is more of an issue than having "only" 2 sets, IMO of course your welcome to disagree.

I really do. I enjoy limited, but I play a lot of constructed (even if 80% of it ends up being against AI opponents.) Having more options gives me a lot more to do with my time - and while I am not quite as burned out on set 2 as I was on set 1, I am more than ready to move onto set 3. And I am sure I am far from the only person feeling that way.

Arena was a breath of fresh air that will let me endure a little longer, but the only way I can advocate adding modes over cards right now, would be if they would add wild west (I know people hate that name but I cbf thinking up something clever right now) in the PG so that I could build crazy decks with all that equipment. As it stands right now, there is not much incentive to experiment due to certain arena fights being very punishing against some decktypes. (And I am sure it would be a non-standard format, but I bet guilds etc would love to run in-house events with equipment etc, so it would definitely add to the options of play.)


I think the most telling thing right now is the fact there is no release date for set 3 - if we assume that there will be at least a fortnight to a month between the announcement and launch, then we could have a very large gap with only set 1+2 ahead of us (since it could still be weeks before they announce a date.) By the time we are there, people will be begging for set 3, so lets not drag it out even further. :p

Yoss
04-08-2015, 08:30 PM
Xen, I would guess you consume content much faster than the average player. Arena still feels new to me. :)

HomerSimpson
04-08-2015, 08:33 PM
I really do. I enjoy limited, but I play a lot of constructed (even if 80% of it ends up being against AI opponents.) Having more options gives me a lot more to do with my time - and while I am not quite as burned out on set 2 as I was on set 1, I am more than ready to move onto set 3. And I am sure I am far from the only person feeling that way.

Arena was a breath of fresh air that will let me endure a little longer, but the only way I can advocate adding modes over cards right now, would be if they would add wild west (I know people hate that name but I cbf thinking up something clever right now) in the PG so that I could build crazy decks with all that equipment. As it stands right now, there is not much incentive to experiment due to certain arena fights being very punishing against some decktypes. (And I am sure it would be a non-standard format, but I bet guilds etc would love to run in-house events with equipment etc, so it would definitely add to the options of play.)


I think the most telling thing right now is the fact there is no release date for set 3 - if we assume that there will be at least a fortnight to a month between the announcement and launch, then we could have a very large gap with only set 1+2 ahead of us (since it could still be weeks before they announce a date.) By the time we are there, people will be begging for set 3, so lets not drag it out even further. :p

tbf I did say "From a PVP standpoint" in the first post

Appreciate that plenty of people like the PVE (Its better than I thought it would be personally) but that is not a universal answer to everything constructed related. I'm sure many like myself prefer PVP.

Xenavire
04-08-2015, 08:35 PM
Xen, I would guess you consume content much faster than the average player. Arena still feels new to me. :)

True. :p

I do have more spare time than most, for now, so my content 'clearing' may be wildly different from the average. That doesn't change the fact set 2 will be feeling a little long in the tooth in 4-6 weeks (which is my estimate for now, since we have no release dates yet.)


tbf I did say "From a PVP standpoint" in the first post

Appreciate that plenty of people like the PVE (Its better than I thought it would be personally) but that is not a universal answer to everything constructed related. I'm sure many like myself prefer PVP.

I get you, but adding new modes only artificially extends the life of content - and arena did that, while adding some fresh stuff, which is why I mentioned it. I get that it isn't every-bodies 'bag', so to speak, but neither is asynch, ladder... Everyone has different tastes.

At least with set 3 the barrier to entry would lower as set 1+2 prices dip on the AH, so new players can sneak in and get some decent cards for gold (which I can see being especially important, since gold will have another value increase as tons of set 3 packs get cracked and chests get spun and hopefully opened.)

ForgedSol
04-08-2015, 10:03 PM
If you guys wanted to see a comparison with other Kickstarter games, here's a great spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lFW2sjShHriYRsyuVZx4Se8Qxjw38VJk4g-7cls8cpg/htmlview?usp=sheets_home&sle=true#). I got it from this article (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/how-many-kickstarter-games-have-failed-to-deliver/1100-6425480/) from gamespot.

From my perspective, I'm okay with the progress that Hex has made. I kickstart a lot of stuff. Some stuff I've gotten doesn't work at all, and one project completely tanked. Hex is out and progress is being made and new set releases mean there's enough interest in the game that it's doing well enough to release more sets. I haven't checked the progress of the game and poked my head inside these forums since alpha, and from an outsider's perspective, seeing that there are new features in the pipeline that are going to be released soon, which includes a new set release, means the game is doing okay for itself.

From a kickstarter's perspective, I'm glad my AA cards were retroactively applied and that I didn't miss out on those cards by not having used the codes yet. Especially because the game is still considered to be in Beta. I'm a little upset that VIP has ended, and I only have a limited amount of tickets to use in those before I can ever try them again, so that means a lot of catch up to try to learn the game well enough to try to even remotely compete, and I'm going to have to miss the next one because I'm going to be on vacation, so there's goes two of my three VIP tickets down the drain. (I missed the last one because I didn't realize "VIP weekend" had the last starting time start before I even woke up on Sunday. And I live in Pacific Time Zone.)

ossuary
04-09-2015, 04:00 AM
Just so you know, VIP isn't gone forever, it's just currently unavailable. The devs intend to retool it once the current (discontinued) offering has expired for all users. It's been far too successful of a tournament type for them to never offer it again. You'll be able to join in again at some point in the future, even after your current collection of tickets expire. :)

DoctorJoe
04-09-2015, 06:51 AM
So you think new players are going to go into the arena or PG with their set 3 cards, and just be oblivious to what the set 1 and 2 cards the AI/Person is using against them do? And they wont have to read them as they are playing etc?

If reading cards is a barrier, TCGs are probably not the right game.

I feel like the OP did a pretty good job of reasonably explaining and justifying his opinions. I don't agree with them, but I do understand where he was coming from. At some point it feels like the thread turned into Homer vs The World.

Cernz
04-09-2015, 07:00 AM
i for my side never started to play mtgo due to the mass of content (or maybe due to the crappy client ;))... and im super happy that i could start from 0 with a great tcg (hex) - but i never got in touch with tcgs before hex (also i did not gather lots of information about other existing tcgs) so i was not aware that sets rotate out etc.. and with that in mind, i think its not a "huge" problem for new players to get started, ofc its a harsh start at the beginning, but imm its far less hard than it seems.

also hex is my "real" 1st tcg ive ever played (i even did not play tcgs in real life) so it helped me a lot to watch streams and see (learn) all the possibilities i have in this genre - so if new players invest some time in watching some streamers they should be familiar with the game quite fast (esp. if they watch streamers who explain their plays)

Cotton
04-09-2015, 08:05 AM
It's already been 4 months since set 2 released. It's time for a new set.

Xenavire
04-09-2015, 08:52 AM
It's already been 4 months since set 2 released. It's time for a new set.

Indeed - like I pointed out, it is going to take a while even after they announce it - absolute best case scenario, it will launch after VIP this month, leaving it end April/early May, at best. Worst case, we could be looking at 6-8 weeks from now. That may not sound so bad, but it is creeping close to the length of time we spent from beta launch to set 2 (minus the alpha period.)

Vorpal
04-09-2015, 09:31 AM
Features that were advertised nearly 2 years ago that caused people to back the game should be implemented before new cards, cards that people have already paid for should be fully working before new cards,

New cards pays the bills and keeps the lights on at Hex HQ.

Without new cards, they don't have the money to put in any of those missing features.

I don't understand why people find this a difficult concept. Hex needs a lot more money than they thought initially because making a digital MMO TCG was way harder than they first thought.


So you think new players are going to go into the arena or PG with their set 3 cards, and just be oblivious to what the set 1 and 2 cards the AI/Person is using against them do? And they wont have to read them as they are playing etc?

This is a ridiculous objection, as the arena encounters use pve specific cards that new players will not possibly have seen before no matter how many sets we delay.


It sucks that you cant just jump on HEX for a quick game that means something without hours commitment.

This I agree with. They need asynch sealed and constructed tournaments. In fact, the only thing that should be synch is drafts. I don't think they should delay set 3 for this, however.


This is exactly the attitude that I refereed to earlier, HEX can do no wrong, pitchforks out for anyone who can apply a bit of logic to the situation rather than sticking their head in the sand and ignoring whats going on in front of them.

Some of you are legitimately brainwashed.

It's not that Hex hasn't made mistakes. They clearly estimated badly for the timeline sketched out in the kickstarter. I think they should have worked on a ranked ladder before trying to support huge tournaments (which was just for VIP which ... got cancelled anyway) It's just that you're objectively terrible at identifying those mistakes and proposing solutions.

I think everyone in this thread has criticized Hex in the past. It's just that most your criticisms are illogical, frivolous, and specious.

Calling regularly scheduled new set releases a 'cash grab'? Man.

You personally, Homer, need to stop being so defensive and need to be willing to listen to criticism of your opinions, without branding everyone who disagrees with you as a fanboy. You try to shout down, disqualify, and dismiss anyone who has a different opinion than your own.

malloc31
04-09-2015, 09:42 AM
Personally (and I know this is not how most people feel) I see no reason for new cards atm. Arena can be beat with the cards we have so there is zero reason for more cards from the PVE side. I (personally) have zero competitive scene to join in since I do not have whole weekends to give up for unofficial official tournaments, so I have no reason to play PVP and no reason to pay money for more PVP cards.

I don't care so much when or how often sets come out, but I would like Dungeons and some form of PVP that you can join in when you have 1-2 hours a day to play added before new sets. The PVP could either be Asycn constructed or some ladder with some form of rewards, but what ever it needs it needs some rewards (there can be a entry fee into the ladder I have no problem with that).

In summary I need a reason to pay for more cards before they make more sets.

Xenavire
04-09-2015, 10:53 AM
Personally (and I know this is not how most people feel) I see no reason for new cards atm. Arena can be beat with the cards we have so there is zero reason for more cards from the PVE side. I (personally) have zero competitive scene to join in since I do not have whole weekends to give up for unofficial official tournaments, so I have no reason to play PVP and no reason to pay money for more PVP cards.

I don't care so much when or how often sets come out, but I would like Dungeons and some form of PVP that you can join in when you have 1-2 hours a day to play added before new sets. The PVP could either be Asycn constructed or some ladder with some form of rewards, but what ever it needs it needs some rewards (there can be a entry fee into the ladder I have no problem with that).

In summary I need a reason to pay for more cards before they make more sets.

Like I keep saying - yes those things are things we need. But they simply won't matter if people quit because there are no new sets. Lets say, for arguments sake, a new feature would land every 3 months (it has been fairly close to that so far.) Dropping anything other than set 3 right now means adding another 3 months or so to the wait for a new set (putting it 4-5 months from now) - and I know that memories can fade fast, but the servers were almost entirely dead in the month leading up to set 2. The game is simply too small to handle any form of loss in the playerbase right now, and a huge wait for set 3 would cause exactly that.

So asking for Asynch and dungeons is all well and good, but there need to be players around to enjoy those features, and they will leave without new cards every now and then. The best way to do it (assuming a 3 month schedule per feature is the temporary norm) would be set, feature, set, feature. If they can go faster than that with the features, great, but they can't neglect the sets.

In short - set 3 next, then pile on the features, then set 4 4-5 months after set 3 if possible.

plaguedealer
04-09-2015, 11:00 AM
I will echo xen's statement regarding set 3. Let it be the next big feature. Heck it probably wont come out for a month anyway. Set 3 is probably ready to go, let it come out.

After set 3, they need to shift focus onto pve, asynch, ah. If set 4 is pushed back, so be it. What would be bad is if we start having this conversation regarding set 4 when there is not much progress on the pve/asych/ah front.

Xenavire
04-09-2015, 11:03 AM
I will echo xen's statement regarding set 3. Let it be the next big feature. Heck it probably wont come out for a month anyway.

After set 3, they need to shift focus onto pve, asynch, ah. If set 4 is pushed back so be it. What would be bad is if we start having this conversation regarding set 4 when there is not much progress on the pve/asych/ah front.

Well, it does depend on what other features might have been introduced in that time - I mean, we could hardly complain much if there was a minor AH update to support the new double-backs feature, etc - it is really all about context.

If there is no content released in between, then we have a good reason to worry.

plaguedealer
04-09-2015, 11:10 AM
True no content in between would be a worry. However the content in between has to be something somewhat substantial in my opinion. Hex ent has alot on their plate regarding features that need implementation.

TOOT
04-09-2015, 11:22 AM
In summary I need a reason to pay for more cards before they make more sets.

This is the point everyone is missing clamoring that set 3 needs to come out so they can keep the lights on. I am strongly in the belief they will make more revenue giving people a reason to buy more platinum on set 1 and 2 cards, than they would introducing set 3.

The majority of the paying playerbase, because a lot of them are KS backers and have platinum or a decent collection already aren't going to be buying new platinum from CZE. They will ship off their hundreds of spares on the AH and get the things they want that way. Or they will be slowly opening them through drafts.

Generally speaking I think the cash train from the KS backers has mostly ended. The remaining potential buyers will be more likely to buy when they have more options to use the things they bought. Asynch, and ladder as chromus pointed out, facilitate that.

Xenavire
04-09-2015, 11:43 AM
This is the point everyone is missing clamoring that set 3 needs to come out so they can keep the lights on. I am strongly in the belief they will make more revenue giving people a reason to buy more platinum on set 1 and 2 cards, than they would introducing set 3.

The majority of the paying playerbase, because a lot of them are KS backers and have platinum or a decent collection already aren't going to be buying new platinum from CZE. They will ship off their hundreds of spares on the AH and get the things they want that way. Or they will be slowly opening them through drafts.

Generally speaking I think the cash train from the KS backers has mostly ended. The remaining potential buyers will be more likely to buy when they have more options to use the things they bought. Asynch, and ladder as chromus pointed out, facilitate that.

I believe more diversity in sets would encourage purchases a lot more than any single feature that could be implemented right now. Currently, we only have 2 sets, with a healthy but narrow card pool - there is only so much to collect right now, hence adding reasons to buy would have very finite applications (at least for existing players.)

As it is, I believe that a lot of plat was spent during the release weekend of set 2, and I think set 3 could probably far exceed that - regardless of people 'cashing in' on stores of platinum. After all, the more platinum removed from the game, the more people will need to buy.

TOOT
04-09-2015, 12:01 PM
These "existing players" some/half/most? of which are set for life, are not the ones that will be making purchases and pushing revenues over break-even for CZE. They should not be the focus right now as plenty of things have been catered to their needs since inception.

Sure a new set will keep the existing players attention and livelihood, but without new players the game will not survive off the current base. If set 3 didn't come out til 2016, and everyone left, it would only accelerate the path down the same road it would end up anyway.

New players need more casual ways to play (asynch, ladder), easier methods to make F2P a legitimate option (improved AH, and more PVE content) and more options where one of which would catch their interest and give them a reason to make some purchases.

Set 3 provides none of that. That being said, I personally want set 3, but if forced to pick one over the other, more modes are better for the future of the game where it can be marketed with all these features to a broad audience and not have to worry if it loses its relatively small current playerbase.

Xenavire
04-09-2015, 12:12 PM
These "existing players" some/half/most? of which are set for life, are not the ones that will be making purchases and pushing revenues over break-even for CZE. They should not be the focus right now as plenty of things have been catered to their needs since inception.

Sure a new set will keep the existing players attention and livelihood, but without new players the game will not survive off the current base. If set 3 didn't come out til 2016, and everyone left, it would only accelerate the path down the same road it would end up anyway.

New players need more casual ways to play (asynch, ladder), easier methods to make F2P a legitimate option (improved AH, and more PVE content) and more options where one of which would catch their interest and give them a reason to make some purchases.

Set 3 provides none of that. That being said, I personally want set 3, but if forced to pick one over the other, more modes are better for the future of the game where it can be marketed with all these features to a broad audience and not have to worry if it loses its relatively small current playerbase.

About the only tier that is 'set for life', in terms of buying cards, is pro (and any tier that had it bundled.) That means there is only about 2k players that never need to buy cards or boosters ever again. Of 17,765 tiers sold, and thousands of new players since then... There is a very tiny portion of the playerbase that is set for life, and any others are likely the small % of players that can go infinite in tournaments.

You are grossly misrepresenting who 'needs' to spend money, especially as even a lot of those pro players will likely throw some money at the game now and then too.

TOOT
04-09-2015, 12:24 PM
And how many of the game's current active playerbase falls into that group?

Judging off the previous post, it's a lot higher than you think.

poizonous
04-09-2015, 12:29 PM
Ok I am going to try and give people a different argument about this....

IF Set 3 is delayed for longer then the following stuff happens...

More Set 1 and 2 packs come out lowering the value of cards inside those sets by keeping production High on those new sets...
Therefore more cards with less value = lower reason to buy the packs

IF Set 3 comes out as soon as it is ready it raises the value of set 1/2 cards in time due to less of those packs being opened and has a new set of cards with high value
Therefore more cards with higher value = higher reason to buy packs

Plus the fact of Limited formats... This may not affect everybody but for the people it is affecting you must realize something.

Limited formats die relatively quickly due to reptitiveness and lack of creativity which is another reason Set 3 is needed sooner rather than later. If you take a look at Draft Queues currently, you will notice during prime gaming time for most people, queues can take 20 minutes and sometimes longer to fill up, that is completely unnecessary and needs to be fixed, and only way to fix it is to implement the new set

Xenavire
04-09-2015, 12:30 PM
And how many of the game's current playerbase falls into that group?

Judging off the previous post, it's a lot higher than you think.

Considering a lot of pro's were stacked, and there are quite a few people who simply haven't started playing yet or aren't really taking full advantage of their tiers... I would say the number of people who can get away with never paying another cent is incredibly tiny.

Especially since even infinite free drafts have to pay for not only collection, but VIP entry, other tournament entry, etc etc. Eventually even the pro's will want to drop some plat (and I doubt they would be shy about doing so, after dropping 250+ on an unreleased game.)

Kramer
04-09-2015, 12:33 PM
About the only tier that is 'set for life', in terms of buying cards, is pro (and any tier that had it bundled.) That means there is only about 2k players that never need to buy cards or boosters ever again. Of 17,765 tiers sold, and thousands of new players since then... There is a very tiny portion of the playerbase that is set for life, and any others are likely the small % of players that can go infinite in tournaments.

You are grossly misrepresenting who 'needs' to spend money, especially as even a lot of those pro players will likely throw some money at the game now and then too.

@XENAVIRE, You forgot about the 686 people who have a collector tier as well since in my opinion, a Collector is worth more than a pro tier or at the very least it is equal to a pro as those 6 cards times 2 (12 in total) sell for over 50,000 plat on the AH which is more than enough to use that plat to draft and or buy packs and never need to spend a dime. But yes, their are very few players who do not have to spend any money and in essense are "set for life".

Xenavire
04-09-2015, 12:35 PM
@XENAVIRE, You forgot about the 686 people who have a collector tier as well since in my opinion, a Collector is worth more than a pro tier or at the very least it is equal to a pro as those 6 cards times 2 (12 in total) sell for over 50,000 plat on the AH which is more than enough to use that plat to draft and or buy packs and never need to spend a dime. But yes, their are very few players who do not have to spend any money and in essense are "set for life".

ONLY if they SELL the AA's. Otherwise they are in the same boat as everyone else.

Also, again, some of those are stacked (probably even more than pro, due to the nature of the perk.)

Incindium
04-09-2015, 12:43 PM
I'm currently set for the foreseeable future when it comes to Hex and I only KS at a King level and put another $200 in for platinum(before the AH existed) and a year of VIP. My pack totals stay about even from drafting and I continue to collect and sell cards on the AH (landed an Angel of Dawn in draft last night). Add in the value of grabbing the AA cards when you can and it's really easy right now to invest initially and not put any more cash into Hex. It will be interesting in the future to see how this dynamic changes years down the line when the user growth peaks.

Kramer
04-09-2015, 12:47 PM
These "existing players" some/half/most? of which are set for life, are not the ones that will be making purchases and pushing revenues over break-even for CZE. They should not be the focus right now as plenty of things have been catered to their needs since inception.

Sure a new set will keep the existing players attention and livelihood, but without new players the game will not survive off the current base. If set 3 didn't come out til 2016, and everyone left, it would only accelerate the path down the same road it would end up anyway.

New players need more casual ways to play (asynch, ladder), easier methods to make F2P a legitimate option (improved AH, and more PVE content) and more options where one of which would catch their interest and give them a reason to make some purchases.

Set 3 provides none of that. That being said, I personally want set 3, but if forced to pick one over the other, more modes are better for the future of the game where it can be marketed with all these features to a broad audience and not have to worry if it loses its relatively small current playerbase.

This was my whole point of wrting this thread in the first place, and maybe the argument of whales was incorrect but I really just want the player base to increase drastically for the longevity of the game, and imo I do not believe the release of Set 3 now will do that. BTW, I like everyone else would love to see Set 3 and the new game mechanics but I would prefer to see more players join the game. If the ladder will increase revenue and or special tournaments or Dungeons than I personally would prefer that. I also want to say that nothing I say or anyone else is going to change Cory and CZE opinion of releasing Set 3 when ready. I just wrote this thread to hear others opinions and to see if I was in the majority, which I clearly am not.

Philip070380
04-09-2015, 01:12 PM
This was my whole point of wrting this thread in the first place, and maybe the argument of whales was incorrect but I really just want the player base to increase drastically for the longevity of the game, and imo I do not believe the release of Set 3 now will do that. BTW, I like everyone else would love to see Set 3 and the new game mechanics but I would prefer to see more players join the game. If the ladder will increase revenue and or special tournaments or Dungeons than I personally would prefer that. I also want to say that nothing I say or anyone else is going to change Cory and CZE opinion of releasing Set 3 when ready. I just wrote this thread to hear others opinions and to see if I was in the majority, which I clearly am not.

This is my opinion too. Great answer Mr Kramer.

magic_gazz
04-09-2015, 01:21 PM
These "existing players" some/half/most? of which are set for life, are not the ones that will be making purchases and pushing revenues over break-even for CZE. They should not be the focus right now as plenty of things have been catered to their needs since inception.

Sure a new set will keep the existing players attention and livelihood, but without new players the game will not survive off the current base. If set 3 didn't come out til 2016, and everyone left, it would only accelerate the path down the same road it would end up anyway.

New players need more casual ways to play (asynch, ladder), easier methods to make F2P a legitimate option (improved AH, and more PVE content) and more options where one of which would catch their interest and give them a reason to make some purchases.

Set 3 provides none of that. That being said, I personally want set 3, but if forced to pick one over the other, more modes are better for the future of the game where it can be marketed with all these features to a broad audience and not have to worry if it loses its relatively small current playerbase.

I think you over estimate how many people are "set for life".

Pro tier gives 1 free draft a week. Just 1. Unless that person comes first or second most of the time, then any time they want to draft more than once it is going to cost them. If they decide they want a collection then they need to win more or spend more. If they want to enter something that is not draft they need to spend more.

I would bet a lot of people with pro tier have had to put in some money or cash in some of their KS stuff. Eventually there will be very few pro tier people who can draft more than once a week without paying something.


You also miss the point that even people who are infinite contribute. Every time I enter a draft that is 3 packs and 100plat that leaves the economy for good. It doesn't matter if I personally don't put in any money, the more I play, the more product that is consumed.

I am now drafting on average once a day. When the set was new I would do about 3. Imagine there are quite a few people like that as drafts are taking longer to fire. The longer it takes before a new set, the less we will draft, the slower the queues will fire. This is bad for the casual once a week drafter as they may have to wait too long for one to fire and give up.

vulture27
04-09-2015, 01:28 PM
These "existing players" some/half/most? of which are set for life, are not the ones that will be making purchases and pushing revenues over break-even for CZE. They should not be the focus right now as plenty of things have been catered to their needs since inception.

I think your underestimating the value of these players to HexEnt.

They just recently added the AA commons as a gold sink - something has to be desirable that can only be earned with gold. The gold then gets removed from the economy and keeps the value up.

These players are platinum sinks. I know I have personally removed over 50,000 platinum from the economy that I didn't buy from HexEnt (350+ draft fees, 2 one year VIPs, 11 VIP tournaments, ~25 set 2 booster packs, AH fees, a few other assorted costs). I constantly need more platinum so I list packs and cards on the AH that other players want. People who don't have the time or interest in playing as many tournaments then have a reason to buy the platinum from HexEnt.


Edit: Magic_gazz beat me to the point.

Xenavire
04-09-2015, 01:35 PM
I think your underestimating the value of these players to HexEnt.

They just recently added the AA commons as a gold sink - something has to be desirable that can only be earned with gold. The gold then gets removed from the economy and keeps the value up.

These players are platinum sinks. I know I have personally removed over 50,000 platinum from the economy that I didn't buy from HexEnt (350+ draft fees, 2 one year VIPs, 11 VIP tournaments, ~25 set 2 booster packs, AH fees, a few other assorted costs). I constantly need more platinum so I list packs and cards on the AH that other players want. People who don't have the time or interest in playing as many tournaments then have a reason to buy the platinum from HexEnt.


Edit: Magic_gazz beat me to the point.

You know, I never even thought about how many draft entries etc I have removed from the economy... I can guarantee I have removed a lot more than I have paid for, pack-wise.

Some things you just take for granted. ;)

cavench
04-09-2015, 02:22 PM
Something else to consider is delaying set 3 may also delay the official release. Imo it is unlikely to officially release Hex along with set 3 (since dungeons aren't ready), it is also unlikely to release Hex in middle of a block (set 4). So earliest I expect official release is along with set 5. If that is indeed HexEnt's current target timeline, then set 3 should not be delayed.

sukebe
04-09-2015, 04:44 PM
About the only tier that is 'set for life', in terms of buying cards, is pro (and any tier that had it bundled.) That means there is only about 2k players that never need to buy cards or boosters ever again. Of 17,765 tiers sold, and thousands of new players since then... There is a very tiny portion of the playerbase that is set for life, and any others are likely the small % of players that can go infinite in tournaments.

You are grossly misrepresenting who 'needs' to spend money, especially as even a lot of those pro players will likely throw some money at the game now and then too.

I also want to point out that just having a single pro player tier is not at all enough to "never have to spend money again". At least if you want to stay competitive. I can't be the only pro player that needs more than 1 draft a week to get my deck where I want it in a semi-reasonable amount of time. It certainly helps, and is well worth the cost I paid but I still have to put more money in, especially if I want to draft more than 1x per week (which I do).

Xenavire
04-09-2015, 04:54 PM
I also want to point out that just having a single pro player tier is not at all enough to "never have to spend money again". At least if you want to stay competitive. I can't be the only pro player that needs more than 1 draft a week to get my deck where I want it in a semi-reasonable amount of time. It certainly helps, and is well worth the cost I paid but I still have to put more money in, especially if I want to draft more than 1x per week (which I do).

I wasn't even trying to imply that, but I was using the idea as a reference point for the number - I know as well as anyone that 1 draft free per week is not enough sometimes.

malloc31
04-10-2015, 10:15 AM
You guys are forgetting, other then for the people who are completionists and want to have every card, a new set is no reason to spend money. When Set 2 came out I spent zero money. What incentive is there to spend actual cash to buy cards that I have no real use for.

It's like buying a new board game that takes 4 people to play but you have nobody to play it with, sure you could but why bother?

Other then people speculating on the economy, I would doubt many people are spending much on this game right now. They need to make it more worth while so people don't mind spending cash.

hex_colin
04-10-2015, 10:21 AM
You guys are forgetting, other then for the people who are completionists and want to have every card, a new set is no reason to spend money. When Set 2 came out I spent zero money. What incentive is there to spend actual cash to buy cards that I have no real use for.

It's like buying a new board game that takes 4 people to play but you have nobody to play it with, sure you could but why bother?

Other then people speculating on the economy, I would doubt many people are spending much on this game right now. They need to make it more worth while so people don't mind spending cash.

What evidence have you to support any of those assertions? You have no idea what motivates everyone else. I know lots of folks who spend of money in the game even after having already accumulated everything. People are spending money even in it's nascent state. :)

malloc31
04-10-2015, 10:35 AM
What evidence have you to support any of those assertions? You have no idea what motivates everyone else. I know lots of folks who spend of money in the game even after having already accumulated everything. People are spending money even in it's nascent state. :)

of course I only can definitively give my own motivations and no one else's, but I would bet its a pretty common way of thinking about things, ie. not being willing to spend money on something where nothing is really gained by spending it. Sure there will be a few who will spend money even after buying everything and with no new options on how to use the items but I would bet that is a very small percentage. I totally admit this is just my opinion and with out doing polling I don't think we could say the truth.

hex_colin
04-10-2015, 10:39 AM
of course I only can definitively give my own motivations and no one else's, but I would bet its a pretty common way of thinking about things, ie. not being willing to spend money on something where nothing is really gained by spending it. Sure there will be a few who will spend money even after buying everything and with no new options on how to use the items but I would bet that is a very small percentage. I totally admit this is just my opinion and with out doing polling I don't think we could say the truth.

There doesn't necessarily need to be "new options" for people to be having fun spending money. I get enjoyment out of opening packs, lots of others do too - that's why so much attention was paid to the pack opening UI. I like drafting and sealed... A LOT. That's a constant source of income for HEX because I can't use any cards I previously opened.

plaguedealer
04-10-2015, 10:48 AM
Malloc, I am new to the tcg scene and spend plat on drafts and vip sealed. I will probably continue to do so for a long time. I have also spent plat on pve things.

Is there something gained by having a complete playset, probably not. However, I have fun doing it and this has kind of become my hobby. This is a game, not some type of investment vehicle. I gained nothing by playing wow back in the day, but it was fun.

Hoping to spend more plat on pve.

Turtlewing
04-10-2015, 10:51 AM
There doesn't necessarily need to be "new options" for people to be having fun spending money. I get enjoyment out of opening packs, lots of others do too - that's why so much attention was paid to the pack opening UI. I like drafting and sealed... A LOT. That's a constant source of income for HEX because I can't use any cards I previously opened.

Agreed.

personally I think something like 2/3 the fun of a TCG is the discovery of opening packs from a new set and figuring out how to put them together into new decks.

Once I've seen every card and hit the AH for any gaps to fill in my new deck ideas, a lot of the fun is 'spent' and a new set release rejuvenates it.

malloc31
04-10-2015, 11:03 AM
I understand the collector aspect of life. I am a comic collector and have over 8000 comics. But I do not understand enjoyment from collecting virtual goods, they don't really exist. If they don't make the game more fun to play I don't see reason to spend money on them. Maybe I am weird like that. And I played WoW for years and had no problem giving them money for the chance to have fun. But right now in this game I can do all the fun stuff with out spending any more money, if i buy more cards their is nothing more fun to do, no utility is gained.

Xenavire
04-10-2015, 11:08 AM
I understand the collector aspect of life. I am a comic collector and have over 8000 comics. But I do not understand enjoyment from collecting virtual goods, they don't really exist. If they don't make the game more fun to play I don't see reason to spend money on them. Maybe I am weird like that. And I played WoW for years and had no problem giving them money for the chance to have fun. But right now in this game I can do all the fun stuff with out spending any more money, if i buy more cards their is nothing more fun to do, no utility is gained.

Have you played other TCG's? Because a lot of the fun is in deckbuilding and discovering new ideas, etc. I would love to be at set 10 already with 2-3 years of dungeons, just so I could O.D on deckbuilding, but I don't mind taking the long road, picking up each set as it comes, and enjoying every moment.

knightofeffect
04-10-2015, 11:08 AM
of course I only can definitively give my own motivations and no one else's, but I would bet its a pretty common way of thinking about things, ie. not being willing to spend money on something where nothing is really gained by spending it. Sure there will be a few who will spend money even after buying everything and with no new options on how to use the items but I would bet that is a very small percentage. I totally admit this is just my opinion and with out doing polling I don't think we could say the truth.

I am much more apt to spend money on Hex compared to say HS (which I played seriously for quite a while). Tons of people spend a lot of money on HS when there is literally no value to cards and absolutely no incentive to progress in constructed what so ever.

Let me say that again, aside from the purely cosmetic sleeves that are mindlessly easy for anyone to aquire at rank 25 every month, there is absolutely no reason to play constructed in HS unless you are in the top 0.0001%. Yet people do play and spend money in mass.

malloc31
04-10-2015, 11:38 AM
Have you played other TCG's? Because a lot of the fun is in deckbuilding and discovering new ideas, etc. I would love to be at set 10 already with 2-3 years of dungeons, just so I could O.D on deckbuilding, but I don't mind taking the long road, picking up each set as it comes, and enjoying every moment.

I played magic for years. I bought or traded for cards I wanted for decks. But in Hex I already have decks good enough to beat anything (only arena so it doesnt take much). I mentioned in earlier posts that there is no competitive PVP scene for me to play in Hex since I can't give up whole weekends. This was my reasoning for preferring dungeons, and sync constructed, so I would have a need for more cards...

Xenavire
04-10-2015, 11:43 AM
I played magic for years. I bought or traded for cards I wanted for decks. But in Hex I already have decks good enough to beat anything (only arena so it doesnt take much). I mentioned in earlier posts that there is no competitive PVP scene for me to play in Hex since I can't give up whole weekends. This was my reasoning for preferring dungeons, and sync constructed, so I would have a need for more cards...

So it sounds like you don't really enjoy the deckbuilding aspects - you like playing. That is a completely valid way of enjoying the game, but that is the rift between us - you don't feel like your decks need new tools, you don't see the meta as being stale enough to require fresh cards to move it forward... That's fine. But for the people who love to squeeze every ounce of creative building they can out of a set? People who do have time for those weekends, and do feel the meta could use a shake-up soon?

Those are the people that will be slavering for a taste of a new set in about a month. And that is why we need a new set, because those people are the exact people Hex can't afford to lose - they are the ones that drive the game forward by buying packs and pioneering new decks etc.

Once we have that new set though? Then we need to get out the content to use the set in. I don't mind which content that is, but I trust that it will be whatever the game needs at the time.

Vorpal
04-10-2015, 12:43 PM
Hex has to put out new sets at regular intervals just to keep the lights on and make payroll. If this doesn't happen, Hex ceases to exist.

In between those new sets, they need to work hard on finishing up all the missing/delayed KS features. I personally hope to see chests and mercs soon.

Yoss
04-10-2015, 12:48 PM
This was my reasoning for preferring dungeons, and sync constructed, so I would have a need for more cards...
I believe you mean Asynchronous. :)

israel.kendall
04-10-2015, 01:55 PM
Hex has to put out new sets at regular intervals just to keep the lights on and make payroll. If this doesn't happen, Hex ceases to exist.

In between those new sets, they need to work hard on finishing up all the missing/delayed KS features. I personally hope to see chests and mercs soon.

Do you think they have already gone through all the kick starter money and whatever Gameforge backing they have? I Dont think they are at the point of "trying to keep the lights on". That being said though, I'm not in support of delaying set releases, there is no reason. Sets 1 & 2 are not going out of print anytime soon, so any new players can still easily get those.

plaguedealer
04-10-2015, 01:58 PM
Given Friday's update, I don't think we are going to see set 3 next week. It really might be a month or two away (maybe more).

RDarkfire
04-10-2015, 02:18 PM
But for the people who love to squeeze every ounce of creative building they can out of a set? People who do have time for those weekends, and do feel the meta could use a shake-up soon?

Don't mistake people who can't blow away entire weekends (or even entire days, whatever) for the same folks who don't "love to squeeze every once of creative building they can out of a set". We are just as skilled and passionate as you, we have a craving for deep strategy, and we likely end up spending just as much if not more than the people who do. CZE needs to treat all parts of the contributing playerbase in the same manner. Along these lines, how many PvP sets need to come and go before the "anything-else" side wins the argument of what "should be next"? Eventually they will have to do one of two things -- increase their throughput (by hiring more developers) or just make a concerted push to get the next important piece of content out (whether it's dungeons, or ranked/ladder play, or whatever) and maybe delay the next PvP set by a month or two (you will all survive).

israel.kendall
04-10-2015, 02:21 PM
Given Friday's update, I don't think we are going to see set 3 next week. It really might be a month or two away (maybe more).

I Dont think we have months to go. They've been working on the coding for set 3 for months already. Adding in the art should not take long.

poizonous
04-10-2015, 02:32 PM
I was basing Set 3 off of this weeks Friday update, no spoiler = no set 3 in April, MAYBE last week of April but definitely not sooner

hex_colin
04-10-2015, 02:36 PM
Don't mistake people who can't blow away entire weekends (or even entire days, whatever) for the same folks who don't "love to squeeze every once of creative building they can out of a set". We are just as skilled and passionate as you, we have a craving for deep strategy, and we likely end up spending just as much if not more than the people who do. CZE needs to treat all parts of the contributing playerbase in the same manner. Along these lines, how many PvP sets need to come and go before the "anything-else" side wins the argument of what "should be next"? Eventually they will have to do one of two things -- increase their throughput (by hiring more developers) or just make a concerted push to get the next important piece of content out (whether it's dungeons, or ranked/ladder play, or whatever) and maybe delay the next PvP set by a month or two (you will all survive).

More developers = more money = more cards = more sets!

Also, the "anything else" mantra doesn't hold any weight - it's not like they're only working on PVP sets. Arena brought tons of tech to the table that are part of the foundation for full PVE. They're clearly working on both sides of the equation already.

Xenavire
04-10-2015, 02:46 PM
Don't mistake people who can't blow away entire weekends (or even entire days, whatever) for the same folks who don't "love to squeeze every once of creative building they can out of a set". We are just as skilled and passionate as you, we have a craving for deep strategy, and we likely end up spending just as much if not more than the people who do. CZE needs to treat all parts of the contributing playerbase in the same manner. Along these lines, how many PvP sets need to come and go before the "anything-else" side wins the argument of what "should be next"? Eventually they will have to do one of two things -- increase their throughput (by hiring more developers) or just make a concerted push to get the next important piece of content out (whether it's dungeons, or ranked/ladder play, or whatever) and maybe delay the next PvP set by a month or two (you will all survive).

First off - I was mentioning two subsets of people, whom may or may not have any crossover. If you fall into one category and not the other, then thats great - if you fall into neither, then that probably means you are enjoying the game in some other way. It's all good.

As for the cycle - I know exactly how long (roughly) it will take to gets sets out and still get in other big features, because we have been living that cycle already. Set 1 'officially' launched with beta, and we had several features pushed (including a massive core systems update), with set 2 landing much later than it should have, in December (thats 7-8 months we had set 1, ignoring the alpha phase.) They don't have to completely overhaul parts of the game for a new unity update this time, so we can say that was an outlier event - take off about 2 months from that for 'standard' progress.

That means we are looking at 3 months between feature patches (give or take) and approx 6 months between sets, as long as things stay the same speed. (If things get faster, brilliant.) Now, we seem to be right on track for set 3 to land approx 5-6 months after set 2, which is a little slow for set releases, but is totally acceptable considering we got a huge content patch (Arena).

The current method is working (we get set 3, then a major feature patch for non set related content, then another set most likely) and everyone will be happy eventually - but remove the sets from the 'rotation' and you are dealing with the game being dead in the water and everyone abandoning ship.

As it is though - the set has already been delayed by what I am guessing will be a month (or more), and you are suggesting that players wait even longer periods than that? I can promise you, it would not sit well with any of them, regardless of what other features can be pushed by then.

schild
04-10-2015, 03:05 PM
5 pages of nothing off a completely faulty premise.

http://i.imgur.com/ycNIBjd.gif

RDarkfire
04-10-2015, 03:06 PM
As it is though - the set has already been delayed by what I am guessing will be a month (or more), and you are suggesting that players wait even longer periods than that? I can promise you, it would not sit well with any of them, regardless of what other features can be pushed by then.

I was more speaking of what happens after Set 3, as obviously the short-term future is already pretty well set in stone. If a future set happens to take 5 months instead of 4 to be released because we end up getting ranked play (for example), I don't see why people should be against that.

Xenavire
04-10-2015, 03:16 PM
I was more speaking of what happens after Set 3, as obviously the short-term future is already pretty well set in stone. If a future set happens to take 5 months instead of 4 to be released because we end up getting ranked play (for example), I don't see why people should be against that.

Considering where we are with set 3 right now, then 5 months is reasonable. Even 6 could be doable - but the more features added, the longer it takes (stating the obvious) - adding an extra 3-4 months to the set release would be too much.

Theres a balance to be struck, and I don't actually expect set 4 to come any faster than set 3 will, which is why I am so against having even more delays. :p

Thrawn
04-10-2015, 04:38 PM
If a future set happens to take 5 months instead of 4 to be released because we end up getting ranked play (for example), I don't see why people should be against that.

Matters a lot if people want Hex to become a serious, competitive game with big tournaments and well publicized events.

Zophie
04-10-2015, 05:10 PM
5 pages of nothing off a completely faulty premise.

http://i.imgur.com/zdnd0bJ.gif

Fixed that for you ;)

schild
04-10-2015, 08:13 PM
Nobody "fixes" Orson Welles.

Oli
04-11-2015, 01:03 AM
I think async-mode is much more important than set 3.
Even with the free draft-ticket each week I have played only 1 draft the last year. I just don't have the time.
I did not experience set 1 or 2 at all. Not in draft, not in constructed. I won't be able to experience set 3 if there is no ansy-mode for me to play. On the other hand I play Arena 4-5 times a week.
I guess there are a lot of players that would like to dive in constructed or sealed, but can't. IMHO tournament participation will rise more with async than with a new set.

bootlace
04-11-2015, 01:51 AM
Yea there's quite a lot of people in these very forums who've mentioned how an aysnch mode would get them to play much more (=more money). It's not even a case of it being a loud minority either, I'm sure most time-starved people won't be dwelling on these forums in the first place. It takes about 1.5 hours before Round 1 even completes (which is the absolute minimum time you have to commit), it's just unacceptable in this day and age for that to be your only competitive mode.

Zophie
04-11-2015, 01:55 AM
Nobody "fixes" Orson Welles.

Fair enough :)

Philip070380
04-11-2015, 03:44 AM
I repeat but this game need a ladder or something competitive for PVP player.
Tourney are just too long, is this game is only for No life player ? It's just ridiculous....

Xenavire
04-11-2015, 04:12 AM
I think async-mode is much more important than set 3.
Even with the free draft-ticket each week I have played only 1 draft the last year. I just don't have the time.
I did not experience set 1 or 2 at all. Not in draft, not in constructed. I won't be able to experience set 3 if there is no ansy-mode for me to play. On the other hand I play Arena 4-5 times a week.
I guess there are a lot of players that would like to dive in constructed or sealed, but can't. IMHO tournament participation will rise more with async than with a new set.

I'd like to point something out - even if we get asynch, drafts wouldn't work, so you should really rare-draft those free tickets.

As for everyone saying asynch = more money... Only from a portion of the playerbase. Set 3 would have a much wider audience. Set 3 is more important, but that doesn't mean asynch isn't important.

Oli
04-11-2015, 05:07 AM
I'd like to point something out - even if we get asynch, drafts wouldn't work, so you should really rare-draft those free tickets.
Async sealed would be ok too. Rare-drafting and quitting is what I do at the moment. It's just plain boring and I might better do a more fun arena-run in my free time.
The lost money on the free draft ticket is not that important. I have currently 250.000 plat in my account that wait to be spend...

Xenavire
04-11-2015, 05:18 AM
Async sealed would be ok too. Rare-drafting and quitting is what I do at the moment. It's just plain boring and I might better do a more fun arena-run in my free time.
The lost money on the free draft ticket is not that important. I have currently 250.000 plat in my account that wait to be spend...

Sealed should be fine for asynch luckily, and that may end up being the reason I jump into sealed more often in the future (swiss can really bum me out sometimes.) Lately most of my sealed play has been restricted to VIP, because rounds take so long.

zadies
04-11-2015, 07:41 AM
Yea there's quite a lot of people in these very forums who've mentioned how an aysnch mode would get them to play much more (=more money). It's not even a case of it being a loud minority either, I'm sure most time-starved people won't be dwelling on these forums in the first place. It takes about 1.5 hours before Round 1 even completes (which is the absolute minimum time you have to commit), it's just unacceptable in this day and age for that to be your only competitive mode.
even with async the minimum time investment isn't really going to go down it will drop but only marginally.

Xenavire
04-11-2015, 07:48 AM
even with async the minimum time investment isn't really going to go down it will drop but only marginally.

Total investment, no, but if you can divide it into 3-4 sessions? Thats huge for people with no chance to sit for 3-4 hours at once.

I still think set 3 trumps it at this point, but it would be great if it landed at the same time or in the feature patch directly after it.

zadies
04-11-2015, 07:49 AM
No I was correct when I said minimum in my sentence the person said playing the first round takes 1.5 hours even with aysnc the first round of sealed could still take 1.5 hours, 20 mins to build deck, and 64 mins for a worst case round 1 going to maximum time... so there is a marginal improvement in time commitment with async but for the first round not really. still going to run 1-1.5 hours in all likelyhood. and following rounds could run up to an hour still.

Oli
04-11-2015, 08:03 AM
Why play right after building your deck?
You can build your deck, take care of family and some hours later play 1 game. If it finished early maybe get another match.
It's really a big difference. Playing in 1 hour chunks is totally different than staying 1 complete day at your PC...
I have 1 hour to spare every now and than, but not much longer and I'm sure there are many like me.

Also the people with family and full-job will easily spend money to make up for the missing time. I have absolutely no problem just spending platinum for a good deck to play in a tourney (knowing that I do not have the proper knowledge how to play that deck) to make up for the time I need to farm for gold or plat.

Xenavire
04-11-2015, 08:29 AM
Plus, if you aren't locked into a lobby until all games are finished (and why would you be?) then your rounds would only last as long as your match lasts - so going 2-0 in 20 mins means your round was 20 mins.

poizonous
04-11-2015, 08:38 AM
Yeah! Lets get Asynch tournaments in before set 3 because that will totally fix the stale bland nature of 2/2/1 format...

Okay Sarcasm over but seriously Asynch is not what is needed next

TOOT
04-11-2015, 11:56 AM
No I was correct when I said minimum in my sentence the person said playing the first round takes 1.5 hours even with aysnc the first round of sealed could still take 1.5 hours, 20 mins to build deck, and 64 mins for a worst case round 1 going to maximum time... so there is a marginal improvement in time commitment with async but for the first round not really. still going to run 1-1.5 hours in all likelyhood. and following rounds could run up to an hour still.

I'd imagine asynch sealed wouldn't have a time on deck building. Once you save your deck you would then have some option to play a match, or not. If people were super pressed for time, they could build a deck at some point, and then actually start playing their first match at another.

Yoss
04-11-2015, 12:22 PM
I'd imagine asynch sealed wouldn't have a time on deck building. Once you save your deck you would then have some option to play a match, or not. If people were super pressed for time, they could build a deck at some point, and then actually start playing their first match at another.

Yep

bootlace
04-11-2015, 12:40 PM
As for everyone saying asynch = more money... Only from a portion of the playerbase. Set 3 would have a much wider audience. Set 3 is more important, but that doesn't mean asynch isn't important.

Honestly we don't really know how significant or not it is. First of all it would bring new players in and bring back old players who quit, then it would make fans of the game who can't commit 3 hours actually play, and it would make active players play even more. I don't know if the culmination of all those extra tournaments would be anywhere close to the money generated from a new set, but it's definitely worth a thought. Also when set 3 does come out, it would make the money it would have and more on top.

And draft takes so long because the actual draft part takes like 20-30 mins (?) and then 20 minutes on top for deck building. You also have to wait for your opponents to finish. All that wouldn't be present in asynch. You could even concede a match in asynch if you suddenly have something to do and it wouldn't be horrible since it would just be marked as one loss on your record, not as devastating as conceding the whole tourney.

Diesbudt
04-11-2015, 01:19 PM
Honestly I feel Async and Set 3 should do a 1-2 punch back to back with only 2-3 weeks between them (any order).

Then start rolling out the dungeons and PvE stuff.

Steelio
04-11-2015, 03:02 PM
I would very much like to see drafts with set 2 and 1 packs because I still have to get a lot of playsets together from set 1 + 2. So maybe a 3/2/1 draft, and a 3-3-2-2-1-1 sealed. Obviously people who have already completed their playsets would want set 3 only draft formats, but still, I feel for those who haven't - and there are an awful lot of us - it would be nice to give us the chance to 'catch up', as it were. I can't see myself shelling out $200 or more to complete set 1/2 playsets - and it would probably cost a lot more than $200 - so the option to play in 3-2-1 drafts would be amazing.

It would also go some way to mitigating the 'new players have to catch up cards' factor.

zadies
04-11-2015, 03:08 PM
Really doesn't matter what the draft format is in terms of collecting if your a collector you just draft the format and sell and trade for the cards you need.

Steelio
04-11-2015, 04:22 PM
The problem here being is that if the only way to acquire set 1 and 2 cards will be from boosters/chests then their prices are set to skyrocket. Good for those with all their playsets and cards to spare, bad the rest [which is most likely the majority of players.] This might not be a logical relation but it seems somewhat intuitive.


Really doesn't matter what the draft format is in terms of collecting if your a collector you just draft the format and sell and trade for the cards you need.

Xenavire
04-11-2015, 04:29 PM
The problem here being is that if the only way to acquire set 1 and 2 cards will be from boosters/chests then their prices are set to skyrocket. Good for those with all their playsets and cards to spare, bad the rest [which is most likely the majority of players.] This might not be a logical relation but it seems somewhat intuitive.

I think it would take a while for the prices to climb. Plenty of people still crack packs after all. And if the value of the contents reaches a certain point, smart people will cash in like crazy, buying, cracking, and selling everything.

Thrawn
04-11-2015, 06:27 PM
People keep getting too hung up on "I don't have a playset". Your average player, at least in my experience from MTG, in a TCG does NOT own a full play set of every card. That's where the trading part comes in. You sell or trade cards to build a different deck or get ready for the new set or whatever else.

It is not intended for you to always, or ever really, have four copies of every card before a new set is released.

magic_gazz
04-11-2015, 07:18 PM
^^^^^^

A million times.

People on here are obsessed with playsets. In real life games a tiny percentage of people achieve this. It is just not realistic for most people.

Poetic
04-11-2015, 07:43 PM
New sets every 4 months please.

Xavon
04-11-2015, 08:36 PM
I agree, they should delay set three, and release set four in its place.

:p

poizonous
04-11-2015, 08:49 PM
I agree, they should delay set three, and release set four in its place.

:p

this made me laugh lol

sukebe
04-12-2015, 01:47 AM
People keep getting too hung up on "I don't have a playset". Your average player, at least in my experience from MTG, in a TCG does NOT own a full play set of every card. That's where the trading part comes in. You sell or trade cards to build a different deck or get ready for the new set or whatever else.

It is not intended for you to always, or ever really, have four copies of every card before a new set is released.

This is something that just cannot be said enough. I played MTG for 22+ years and I never had a playset for that game. Not even when I was trying to go pro. You just do not need playsets at all. Most people I know who had playsets were not the pro players, they were just fans of the game who loved having everything.

In vegas we had a lot of pro players (might still have them, but I no longer help to run tournaments and havn't really played since before Hex went to alpha) so I got to see how they played the game very often. They kept what they needed for the decks they planned to play and each team (usually 4-6 players) would just proxy cards to test their decks out as well as the other popular decks in the metagame. they would then play the decks they felt best fit the metagame and sell/trade any packs they won from tournaments to pay for whatever cards they needed and for tournament entries. I, even as a poor 12 year old, probably owned more cards than they actually did most of the time :-)

Sorry for the slightly off topic story, just something that the above post made me think about again and it did seem to at least somewhat fit this topic :-)

Sparrow
04-12-2015, 07:30 AM
Is this an issue of F2P players wanting a delay in set 3 release so they have more time to farm and convert to acquire set 1 and 2 playsets? Sure, it's "possible" to get full play sets by only playing F2P, but that shouldn't result in putting on the brakes on releases. Players are just going to have to get accustomed to the speed new sets come out. Bottom line is if you want to keep up, lay down your money.

Warrender
04-12-2015, 10:21 AM
This is something that just cannot be said enough. I played MTG for 22+ years and I never had a playset for that game. Not even when I was trying to go pro. You just do not need playsets at all. Most people I know who had playsets were not the pro players, they were just fans of the game who loved having everything.

In vegas we had a lot of pro players (might still have them, but I no longer help to run tournaments and havn't really played since before Hex went to alpha) so I got to see how they played the game very often. They kept what they needed for the decks they planned to play and each team (usually 4-6 players) would just proxy cards to test their decks out as well as the other popular decks in the metagame. they would then play the decks they felt best fit the metagame and sell/trade any packs they won from tournaments to pay for whatever cards they needed and for tournament entries. I, even as a poor 12 year old, probably owned more cards than they actually did most of the time :-)

Sorry for the slightly off topic story, just something that the above post made me think about again and it did seem to at least somewhat fit this topic :-)

Collecting whole sets has usually been characteristic of casual and not pro players at least in my experience as well. Pro players only care about getting the cards they need for their next deck.

plaguedealer
04-12-2015, 10:57 AM
Collecting whole sets has usually been characteristic of casual and not pro players at least in my experience as well. Pro players only care about getting the cards they need for their next deck.

Need to cater to both casual and pro. Needs to be a balance and this game is not mtgo.

sukebe
04-12-2015, 11:10 AM
Need to cater to both casual and pro. Needs to be a balance and this game is not mtgo.

they do, and so does mtg (not sure why you mentioned this wasn't mtgo, seem pretty obvious and was not related to what warrender said or what I said). the point is nobody needs a playset, especially not before the next set comes out. regular set releases does not hurt any playgroup but helps nearly all of them

HomerSimpson
04-12-2015, 11:39 AM
they do, and so does mtg (not sure why you mentioned this wasn't mtgo, seem pretty obvious and was not related to what warrender said or what I said). the point is nobody needs a playset, especially not before the next set comes out. regular set releases does not hurt any playgroup but helps nearly all of them

Where does this game cater to a casual player?

There isnt any PVP environment with any meaning to it that isnt at least a 3 hour commitment

Thrawn
04-12-2015, 12:20 PM
Where does this game cater to a casual player?

There isnt any PVP environment with any meaning to it that isnt at least a 3 hour commitment

Largely in the unreleased content, which is another reason almost this entire thread is a pointless discussion.

magic_gazz
04-12-2015, 01:05 PM
Where does this game cater to a casual player?

There isnt any PVP environment with any meaning to it that isnt at least a 3 hour commitment


Proving grounds. It is the online version of the kitchen table. You find a buddy and start a game, you can even have your own "no playing x" type rules, just as casual players often do.

sukebe
04-12-2015, 04:32 PM
Largely in the unreleased content, which is another reason almost this entire thread is a pointless discussion.

This. not to mention I feel pve is for casual players more than pvp is anyway. eventually we will get asynch for those who cannot dedicate any reasonable amount of time to the game. I am sure homer knew this already, which makes me wonder he would bother making a purposefully inflammatory comment like his last post...

HomerSimpson
04-12-2015, 05:46 PM
Largely in the unreleased content, which is another reason almost this entire thread is a pointless discussion.


This. not to mention I feel pve is for casual players more than pvp is anyway. eventually we will get asynch for those who cannot dedicate any reasonable amount of time to the game. I am sure homer knew this already, which makes me wonder he would bother making a purposefully inflammatory comment like his last post...

Right so you mean it dont cater to the casual player then but it might sometime in the future which nobody knows since they dont keep the community updated on whats actually happening?

Thrawn
04-12-2015, 06:24 PM
Right so you mean it dont cater to the casual player then but it might sometime in the future which nobody knows since they dont keep the community updated on whats actually happening?

Sure, why not. Me personally, I don't' care about the casual player. I'm here to PvP and play competitively. I wouldn't shed a tear of PvE was completely scrapped.

sukebe
04-12-2015, 07:09 PM
Sure, why not. Me personally, I don't' care about the casual player. I'm here to PvP and play competitively. I wouldn't shed a tear of PvE was completely scrapped.

I actually love pve :-)

To Homer:
I just don't like people judging an incomplete game as if it were complete. Not to mention the fact that this game is already far more free to play than MTGO, this games biggest competitor. TCGs are not usually even close to free to play. the fact that it is possible in Hex even with a good amount of work already makes it the most free to play tcg that I have ever known.

magic_gazz
04-12-2015, 09:59 PM
This. not to mention I feel pve is for casual players more than pvp is anyway. eventually we will get asynch for those who cannot dedicate any reasonable amount of time to the game. I am sure homer knew this already, which makes me wonder he would bother making a purposefully inflammatory comment like his last post...

He does know this, it has been talked about many times.

HomerSimpson
04-12-2015, 10:20 PM
I actually love pve :-)

To Homer:
I just don't like people judging an incomplete game as if it were complete. Not to mention the fact that this game is already far more free to play than MTGO, this games biggest competitor. TCGs are not usually even close to free to play. the fact that it is possible in Hex even with a good amount of work already makes it the most free to play tcg that I have ever known.

Where did I mention anything that remotely has anything to do with F2P, or magic or anything that you just said?


He does know this, it has been talked about many times.

Coming across a bit obsessed with me lately you are

dogmod
04-13-2015, 12:20 AM
Can we just ban this homer dude already... his schtick is getting tired.

Zophie
04-13-2015, 12:28 AM
Well, continuing to feed him certainly isn't the answer...

http://i.imgur.com/l68gtxB.gif

:cool:

Svenn
04-13-2015, 08:05 AM
Can we just ban this homer dude already... his schtick is getting tired.

He'll just create a third account. He was already banned once. :-/

hex_colin
04-13-2015, 08:06 AM
He'll just create a third account. He was already banned once. :-/

I don't think he'll get a third chance. ;)

KingGabriel
04-13-2015, 08:47 AM
Only KingGabriel is allowed to refer to himself in third person.
KingGabriel is displeased to hear otherwise.
KingGabriel wonders what he should have for lunch.

HomerSimpson
04-13-2015, 09:39 AM
Can we just ban this homer dude already... his schtick is getting tired.

Ban me for what? Can you point me towards the rule I've broke by having an opinion on certain things rather than coming across as a brainwashed sheep like a lot of people do on here?

Cringe worthy that people are calling for bans because someones posted something they may disagree with

So again, care to point me towards which posts of mine have been such a problem and broken any of the rules?

That said my last ban was for similar stuff so it wouldn't surprise me if I get another, it seems they want to trick new players into thinking everythings perfect if they look at these forums and get rid of anyone who isn't a happy clapping worshipper that might point out the many flaws

The level of ignorance on here that anyone who has a negative opinion must be a troll is laughable also, there is plenty wrong with the game and there should be no issue with people bringing that up

In short, get a grip and stop being so touchy

Xenavire
04-13-2015, 09:45 AM
Ban me for what? Can you point me towards the rule I've broke by having an opinion on certain things rather than coming across as a brainwashed sheep like a lot of people do on here?

Cringe worthy that people are calling for bans because someones posted something they may disagree with

So again, care to point me towards which posts of mine have been such a problem and broken any of the rules?

That said my last ban was for similar stuff so it wouldn't surprise me if I get another, it seems they want to trick new players into thinking everythings perfect if they look at these forums and get rid of anyone who isn't a happy clapping worshipper that might point out the many flaws

The level of ignorance on here that anyone who has a negative opinion must be a troll is laughable also, there is plenty wrong with the game and there should be no issue with people bringing that up

In short, get a grip and stop being so touchy

You post intentionally inflammatory comments. Often violating the CoC:


Causing disturbances in forum threads, such as picking fights, making off topic posts that ruin the thread, insulting other posters

HomerSimpson
04-13-2015, 09:48 AM
You post intentionally inflammatory comments. Often violating the CoC:

Point me towards a post of mine that has been "intentionally inflammatory"

I have never came across as many easily offended folk in one place at one time, some of you want to man up a bit, its only text on the internet, nobody died.

nicosharp
04-13-2015, 09:55 AM
Point me towards a post of mine that has been "intentionally inflammatory"

I have never came across as many easily offended folk in one place at one time, some of you want to man up a bit, its only text on the internet, nobody died.
I actually agree with you on this one. You have strong opinions, but have been doing a good job at not targeting people. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Even Why2Donuts.

hex_colin
04-13-2015, 10:18 AM
Ban me for what?

Creating a new forum account after your previous one was banned is against the CoC. So, creating the new account and every post since is more than enough reason to ban you. Fighting with everyone else who posts an opposing view is just adding accelerant to the eventual pyre...

HomerSimpson
04-13-2015, 10:21 AM
Creating a new forum account after your previous one was banned is against the CoC. So, creating the new account and every post since is more than enough reason to ban you. Fighting with everyone else who posts an opposing view is just adding accelerant to the eventual pyre...

Phenteo was made fully aware of this by me and I had a conversation with him to get permission to do this before I made a post on this account and made no attempt to hide who I was.

"fighting with anyone who posts an opposing view" Does that not apply to the people who have an opposing view to my opinions also or is this a one way thing where its only a problem because I'm not one of the happy clapping worshipers? I'm not arguing with myself am I?

You would do well to not make assumptions Colin :)

zadies
04-13-2015, 10:25 AM
That said my last ban was for similar stuff so it wouldn't surprise me if I get another, it seems they want to trick new players


Clearly incendiary and also talking about previous punitive actions taken against an account is also a violation of the CoC ;) So even had they chosen to over look things you can't say that you didn't just put your foot in your mouth.

hex_colin
04-13-2015, 10:25 AM
Phenteo was made fully aware of this by me and I had a conversation with him before I made a post on this account and made no attempt to hide who I was.

You would do well to not make assumptions Colin :)

You would do well not to assume what I do and don't know. Whether or not anyone is currently turning a blind eye to your shenanigans now doesn't mean that they won't change their minds in the future.

HomerSimpson
04-13-2015, 10:32 AM
You would do well not to assume what I do and don't know. Whether or not anyone is currently turning a blind eye to your shenanigans now doesn't mean that they won't change their minds in the future.

So if you were aware of the situation, why did you just make a post as if your wernt?

Also if this is the case why are private messages between me and a staff member being shared with someones whos just another player? is there not some kind of privacy policy in place to prevent this kind of thing?

Vorpal
04-13-2015, 10:36 AM
HomerSimpson's primarily problem is the continual insults in his posts, and continual arguing in bad faith.

He constantly mischaracterizes anyone who disagrees with him about anything as a mindless brainwashed fanboy who thinks the game is perfect.

Zophie
04-13-2015, 10:38 AM
I don't mind if Homer has opinions different than other people, just try not to be so antagonistic about it though. The same can be said about other people here too. Let's just take a breather here and regroup on the topic (if there's anything left to say on the subject), otherwise we'll just need to close the thread.

HomerSimpson
04-13-2015, 10:46 AM
HomerSimpson's primarily problem is the continual insults in his posts, and continual arguing in bad faith.

He constantly mischaracterizes anyone who disagrees with him about anything as a mindless brainwashed fanboy who thinks the game is perfect.

:D

If you have been offended by this extremely toned down version of myself, I would suggest you have oversensitivity issues, would you care to point me to these posts that have been insulting to anyone at all?

plaguedealer
04-13-2015, 10:50 AM
Calling people brainwashed sheep kind makes anything else you say moot. I have disagreements all the time with folks on this forum, I try to keep it civil though.

HomerSimpson
04-13-2015, 10:52 AM
Calling people brainwashed sheep kind makes anhthing else you say as moot. I have disagreements all the time with folks on this forum, I try to keep it civil though.

You really think Brainwashed sheep isnt being civil? See above, oversensitivity issues.

Some of you want to get out of the bubble you are living in if you truly think something like that is offensive.

Gwaer
04-13-2015, 10:52 AM
The fact that you can't see how incendiary you are being Is going to be what gets you banned again. And you'll have nothing and no one to blame but yourself. Hop on reddit and complain about favoritism or whatever, but you're not going to go far in this world if you can't criticize without being incendiary. You're just going to be written off as a troll time and again anywhere you go. I hope that age matures you and your ability to express yourself, because that seems like a very frustrating existence.

dogmod
04-13-2015, 10:53 AM
:D

If you have been offended by this extremely toned down version of myself, I would suggest you have oversensitivity issues, would you care to point me to these posts that have been insulting to anyone at all?

In this very post you make an ad hominem attack against those that disagree with you.

In a post above you call those that disagree with you "brainwashed sheep".

As I said. Your schtick is tired and distracts from reasonable discourse and would put off new players coming to this forum.

HomerSimpson
04-13-2015, 11:00 AM
The fact that you can't see how incendiary you are being Is going to be what gets you banned again. And you'll have nothing and no one to blame but yourself. Hop on reddit and complain about favoritism or whatever, but you're not going to go far in this world if you can't criticize without being incendiary. You're just going to be written off as a troll time and again anywhere you go. I hope that age matures you and your ability to express yourself, because that seems like a very frustrating existence.

I also hope that age matures you to stop treating some randomers comments on the internet as such a big deal, As a paying customer I am entitled to air my opinions in public am I not?

Again, the "troll" mentality on here has been pointed out many times and its nothing but arrogance from the company and its worshipers, It is possible that people do not share the majority view on here and wish to bring the negatives of the game up without being a troll, I have never been called a troll anywhere until this place which is mostly full of brainwashed condescending folk that are unable to accept any negative viewpoint.



In this very post you make an ad hominem attack against those that disagree with you.

In a post above you call those that disagree with you "brainwashed sheep".

As I said. Your schtick is tired and distracts from reasonable discourse and would put off new players coming to this forum.

Why would I put off new players? I'd say the opposite tbh, this over sensitive, lets pat eachother on the back and agree on everything, anyone who disagrees with the masses is a troll ban them attitude is far more offputting than anything else.

Salverus
04-13-2015, 11:04 AM
just lock this topic please, homer tries to derail it every way possible over and over again.

zadies
04-13-2015, 11:06 AM
So if you were aware of the situation, why did you just make a post as if your wernt?

Also if this is the case why are private messages between me and a staff member being shared with someones whos just another player? is there not some kind of privacy policy in place to prevent this kind of thing?
Technically given Colin backed as a producer level backer and is listed as an Executive producer in the credits he is technically an employee. nice straw man tho:)

Also I tend to make crazy off the wall statements all the time and I'm sure that a large percentage of the people you would classify as white knights have me just on instant ignore so if your at the point where I'm saying something you really should think about where you really are.

HomerSimpson
04-13-2015, 11:08 AM
just lock this topic please, homer tries to derail it every way possible over and over again.


If you go back a couple of pages, You'll see my arguments were on topic.

It was derailed by unfunny memes, random gifs, BAN HIM!!!111, Troll!111 etc etc comments, nothing that was said by me, dont let that get in the way of a witch hunt though.

Gwaer
04-13-2015, 11:08 AM
Personally no, I don't think everyone is entitled to an opinion. If you search the forums for that phrase you can probably find me railing against it. I think that's what wrong people say to justify being wrong. I'm sorry I gave off the impression that you're a big deal, I didn't mean to. I was just making an observation.

Troll is just a placeholder word for someone easily dismissed. If you act this way elsewhere I'm certain you're easily dismissed there, too. Railing against the majority and demanding that you're listened to because you're enlightened is basically just the Internet equivalent of a foot stomping child.

I do not agree with all of the devs decisions, I've aired my complaints publicly on these forums without resorting to calling everyone who agreed with the decision anything negative whatsoever. It takes away from my ability to take you and your complaints seriously. You're just derailing the thread rather than making a point.

plaguedealer
04-13-2015, 11:13 AM
Homer, you must like the game if you have so much fervor. You need to take a break from the keyboard.

I will also say that I hope collin does not have information regarding people's account that the public does not have, if he is not a employee. A reddit post from phenteo said you had another forum name and I believe this is the information you are talking about.

dogmod
04-13-2015, 11:15 AM
Everyone can have their own opinion. You are not entitled to air it in incendiary manners on a forum that is owned by someone else. There is no free speech law protecting you from being banned here.

Even the white knighters are generally civil. I am one of the least civil people here and I find you annoying and uncivil.

I work with stinking, smelly, cursing people all day. I guarantee you that I am not overly sensitive. There is no rule that I have to deal with inflammatory people when I spend my leisure time on here. There is actually a rule against it. I hope they enforce it.

HomerSimpson
04-13-2015, 11:18 AM
Personally no, I don't think everyone is entitled to an opinion. If you search the forums for that phrase you can probably find me railing against it. I think that's what wrong people say to justify being wrong. I'm sorry I gave off the impression that you're a big deal, I didn't mean to. I was just making an observation.

Troll is just a placeholder word for someone easily dismissed. If you act this way elsewhere I'm certain you're easily dismissed there, too. Railing against the majority and demanding that you're listened to because you're enlightened is basically just the Internet equivalent of a foot stomping child.

I do not agree with all of the devs decisions, I've aired my complaints publicly on these forums without resorting to calling everyone who agreed with the decision anything negative whatsoever. It takes away from my ability to take you and your complaints seriously. You're just derailing the thread rather than making a point.

Again, its the calls for bans, whining about someone having an opinion etc that have derailed the thread, up until someone said "ban him" my posts in this thread were all constructive and on topic.


There is no railing against the majority from me here, I'm just putting an opinion across, if the majority disagree with that then so be it I dont have any control over that, In any normal community there would be others who are not insanely positive about everything, this community jumps on everyone who says anything slightly negative about the game and whines until they are either banned from the forums or realize putting an opinion out on here isnt worth the hassle of being branded a troll x20, you only have to look at the HS forum for example where there is varied opinions on how things are being done, here there is the positive opinion and anyone who does not share it is a troll that should be banned or forced out of the community.

I personally feel like I cant speak in game in case someone is offended as this community is extremely sensitive (hence the Homer character in game and not moving very far from it),when your community is making people feel like that, there is a problem.

I have not demanded that I'm listened to by anyone in any post fwiw.

plaguedealer
04-13-2015, 11:25 AM
What specifically do you want changed in Hex? I know you want the game to be more casual friendly, which it will in time. Have you made a thread on the changes you want to see?

Gwaer
04-13-2015, 11:25 AM
Please, you started your ad hominem attacks in your third post in this thread labeling everyone who was accepting of the realities of game development 'worshipers' implying they are incapable of thinking for themselves, and pretty much every post after that has been more of the same. That's neither civil nor on point criticisms.

hex_colin
04-13-2015, 11:26 AM
So if you were aware of the situation, why did you just make a post as if your wernt?

Also if this is the case why are private messages between me and a staff member being shared with someones whos just another player? is there not some kind of privacy policy in place to prevent this kind of thing?

How about the following hypothetical conversation? ;)

< General banter about forum threads >
Some dude from Scotland: "Surprised you didn't ban HomerSimpson immediately given you'd banned his previous account."
Some dude from HEX: "He reached out, said he'd play nice. Gave him the benefit of the doubt."
Some dude from Scotland: "Oh, cool, folks deserve second chances."
< More general banter about forum threads >

Nothing damning. No shared private conversations. Just a passing conversation about publicly available information (you being outed on Reddit). The HomerSimpson account not having been banned is immaterial - creating a new account after being banned is against the CoC. Whether you have not or will not have any action taken against you is irrelevant to that. Anything I did or didn't know about your specific circumstance is immaterial.

Pretty sure none of us has any right to privacy on these forums though. HEX runs them, we get to use them at their discretion, and under whatever rules they choose to outline and/or enforce. Any of us can choose not to participate at any time.

Zophie
04-13-2015, 11:32 AM
Any of us can choose not to participate at any time.

Speak for yourself, I have an addiction :D

Phenteo
04-13-2015, 11:33 AM
The original intent of this thread is long gone. Locking thread.