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vylqun
04-10-2015, 09:04 AM
I was thinking about the PvE cards and how their market value droped.
At one hand it is because we only have arena as pve content and thus everyone spams it. On the other hand pve cards will always be way more abundant than pack cards, because there will always be way more f2p pve players then pvp only ones.

So one way to fix this and give arena worthwile loot are limited cards.
Of course it would be bad to include a set of cards where the players can only get 10000 copies and thats it, but if the drop rate would be linked to the amount of copies on active accounts and the amount of active account itself, then that would work pretty well.
What ist an active account? I can't really define it properly, but i'd an account that was logged in in the past 3 months.

So basically imagine the fictional card of "Soul Rapier", the player factor for the drop is 0.5, that means it hits the lowest possible droprate (maybe 1:1000000 or 1:10000000) when the amount of copies of that card owned by active accounts is at or over 0.5 times the number of active players. The actual drop rate could be 1:100 if no one owns one, 1:1000 if players^0.5/4 owns one, 1:10000 if players^0.5/3 own one etc.

Those pve cards would be semi limited, the drop rate goes up while the hex playerbase grows and goes down when those players spam pve. That means the value of those cards would be a constant depending on the player factor, 0.5 is pretty uncommon as only 12.5% of the players could own a playset of those, one with the factor of 4 would be common as every player can own 1 and one with the factor of 0.04 would probably be very expensive because only 1% of the playerbase can own a complete playset (+ a few more because there is no hard limit on the copies but rather an extreme decrease in droprate)

Xenavire
04-10-2015, 09:08 AM
The idea is neat, but too complex (try explaining the drop rates to a new player), and actively punishes people for playing (better to let the account 'die' for a few months to boost supply, then come back and buy them cheap.)

It seems like it would actively destroy fun, too. I would rather play, knowing something is rare, than to play knowing something is rare just because someone else has it.

Ju66ernaut
04-10-2015, 09:15 AM
I believe Gwaer already has all of his AA's shipped to a dormant account based in the Cayman Islands (next to the expanse of Lotus Gardens he is currently having cultivated) for this exact purpose.

vylqun
04-10-2015, 09:35 AM
It seems like it would actively destroy fun, too. I would rather play, knowing something is rare, than to play knowing something is rare just because someone else has it.

but "just" rare cards would definitely lose their value over time, which wont matter for vets, but for newer player that's always pretty annoying.

Vorpal
04-10-2015, 09:35 AM
PvE cards aren't very valuable because there are hardly any of them, so they drop pretty frequently.

I don't get the impression any of the super rare 'chase' pve cards have been released yet.

Xenavire
04-10-2015, 09:42 AM
but "just" rare cards would definitely lose their value over time, which wont matter for vets, but for newer player that's always pretty annoying.

Why? It lowers the barrier for entry into PvE for them, effectively speeding up their progress and allowing them faster farming.

As long as the gold sinks are good enough, then the cards wouldn't be needed as much as the gold, and it would make 'gearing up' a lot easier overall.

malloc31
04-10-2015, 10:01 AM
It's a really interesting idea. I like the concept but agree that drop rate is too complex. I think just a hard limited number like 5000 of each card (sort of like it is with some of the kick starter rewards) would work good. It is only PVE cards so the fact that not every one would have a chance to get them shouldnt be major. And the mad rush when a new card was announced to earn them before they run out would be fun.

Xenavire
04-10-2015, 10:07 AM
It's a really interesting idea. I like the concept but agree that drop rate is too complex. I think just a hard limited number like 5000 of each card (sort of like it is with some of the kick starter rewards) would work good. It is only PVE cards so the fact that not every one would have a chance to get them shouldnt be major. And the mad rush when a new card was announced to earn them before they run out would be fun.

I'd hate it, personally - but I could live with AA's being done this way, since you don't 'require' them to play certain decks etc.

I think Uruunaz style cards may be the right way to go for anything that they want to be truly scarce but 'infinitely available' - I haven't even heard of anyone meeting Uruunaz for at least a week, which goes to show exactly how rare it is.

bootlace
04-10-2015, 10:13 AM
I like this idea - although the part about transferring cards to a dormant sub-account could be gamed so there needs to be another algorithm.

I had an idea a few months back about being 1 'Golden Ticket' (Willy Wonka style) in every XXX,000 packs, with the ticket being anything from a code for free access to the next Hex ebook to something like earning the right to have a vanity card made for you. A similar concept can be applied to dungeons.

For example every hour there is a random 'something' (can be an exclusive AA, a pack, a primal, but probably best is a perishable powerful PvE card like Spectral Lotus) dropping from a boss - so there's always some hype every hour as people converse on chat and race to get that hour's bonus item.

More specific to your point on combating PvE drop flooding - I think the crafting system will have to take some out of the economy. I also think they should really be less generous with the drops AND reduce drop rate of rares/legendaries (currently WAY too high). It's pretty ridiculous spending only 40 minutes on an Arena run and getting like 15 pieces of equipment/card. Anyone else remember doing some dungeon in an MMO like WoW for 1.5 hours and hoping to get just ONE rare quality item? In the end it devalues all loot and you're hardly excited about what you're going to get because you already have it all and it's all just worth pennies. Bigger loot pool will help a bit, but the speed at which everything dropped in value was way too fast, drop rates must be adjusted.

Turtlewing
04-10-2015, 10:15 AM
In truth i think your idea when wrong right here:



Of course it would be bad to include a set of cards where the players can only get 10000 copies and thats it,

PvE cards released in finite numbers and once that supply is exhausted they don't drop any more sounds like a perfectly reasonable concept to me.

I mean they already did that with the KS PvE exclusives. I don't see why they can't make a Legendary drop from a Raid only pay out 3,000 times (so the first 1,000 completions to score a legendary drop get it) then the card is removed from the loot table (replaced with another Legendary). thereby making that reward even rarer than typical legendary drops.

Xenavire
04-10-2015, 10:39 AM
In truth i think your idea when wrong right here:



PvE cards released in finite numbers and once that supply is exhausted they don't drop any more sounds like a perfectly reasonable concept to me.

I mean they already did that with the KS PvE exclusives. I don't see why they can't make a Legendary drop from a Raid only pay out 3,000 times (so the first 1,000 completions to score a legendary drop get it) then the card is removed from the loot table (replaced with another Legendary). thereby making that reward even rarer than typical legendary drops.

The issue is that it favours fast/skilled players, and if those effects are unique, there will be a very small amount of viable playsets - simply making everyone who can't get them upset.

This is why I think AA's should drop like that - have a legendary/rare that drops at 1% normally, then have the AA replace it in 1/10 drops until X number of drops. We don't want to have powerful, unique effects be limited in number (and for this reason I could live with the KS versions being 'reprinted' with new art.)

malloc31
04-10-2015, 10:44 AM
The issue is that it favours fast/skilled players, and if those effects are unique, there will be a very small amount of viable playsets - simply making everyone who can't get them upset.

This is why I think AA's should drop like that - have a legendary/rare that drops at 1% normally, then have the AA replace it in 1/10 drops until X number of drops. We don't want to have powerful, unique effects be limited in number (and for this reason I could live with the KS versions being 'reprinted' with new art.)

games should favor "fast/skilled players"

I know completionists won't like it but it would be great for the economy, and many people would enjoy the feeling of a chance to really earn something worth while.

Turtlewing
04-10-2015, 10:48 AM
The issue is that it favours fast/skilled players, and if those effects are unique, there will be a very small amount of viable playsets - simply making everyone who can't get them upset.

This is why I think AA's should drop like that - have a legendary/rare that drops at 1% normally, then have the AA replace it in 1/10 drops until X number of drops. We don't want to have powerful, unique effects be limited in number (and for this reason I could live with the KS versions being 'reprinted' with new art.)

1. Who said they would be super powerful? Their point is to be super rare, that doesn't have to imply power.

2. AA's is a reasonable approach. But I see no need to limit it to that model.

3. Some super rare items that the vast majority of players can't realistically hope to own is a feature not a bug in TCG's as long as it's not taken to excess.

4. PvE isn't a competitive format so I see no need for all cards to be available in sufficient numbers for all players to get one. And if the PvE card set does get used for something competitive they could ban these cards if it were a problem for the new format.

5. Biasing the rewards to the first people to complete content is no different from rotating content where only people who were playing it before it was removed have a chance at the reward.

Xenavire
04-10-2015, 10:49 AM
games should favor "fast/skilled players"

I know completionists won't like it but it would be great for the economy, and many people would enjoy the feeling of a chance to really earn something worth while.

Completionists are very different from people who want access to every option in deckbuilding. Which is why I suggested a very reasonable alternative - AA's.

Those AA's would be worth a huge amount, would favour the skilled/fast players, and wouldn't completely screw over people who like to build all sorts of decks.

Seriously, adding cards limited to 1000 or so, that are unique with no chance of reprint, would actually be enough to make me flat-out quit on the spot, because I wouldn't have any interest in paying a massive premium for something just because I wasn't one of the lucky people who made it there first. Those sorts of decisions would be healthy for the market, but very unhealthy for the playerbase.

bootlace
04-10-2015, 10:50 AM
games should favor "fast/skilled players"

I know completionists won't like it but it would be great for the economy, and many people would enjoy the feeling of a chance to really earn something worth while.

What about people with jobs, or people in the 'wrong' timezone, or people with slow internet/computer connections?

I'm totally against exclusive functional non-perishable items - I want a level playing field (KS exclusive cards/mercs/perks was enough of a mistake).

malloc31
04-10-2015, 10:56 AM
What about people with jobs, or people in the 'wrong' timezone, or people with slow internet/computer connections?

I'm totally against exclusive functional non-perishable items - I want a level playing field (KS exclusive cards/mercs/perks was enough of a mistake).

I am not thinking of an amount that would be gone in 20 minutes. It should be able to last 4-5 days at least. doesn't have to be super rare, if its an item that is actually useful people will want it. Just so there is less released then 4 per player. I would think maybe enough so 2 per the numbers of players of this game, so a playset for half the people. Most people would want to keep theirs, the ones willing to sell would get good amounts. And don't just do it once per 3-4 months but once every few weeks, so you have lots of chances.

Turtlewing
04-10-2015, 10:56 AM
What about people with jobs, or people in the 'wrong' timezone, or people with slow internet/computer connections?

I'm totally against exclusive functional non-perishable items - I want a level playing field (KS exclusive cards/mercs/perks was enough of a mistake).

If it takes less than a week for a raid to be beaten enough times that it's rarest drop has been handed out 1,000+ times, something has gone wrong with the difficulty of that Raid IMO.

That said I think you're preferences are simply different form others (mine). I'd argue that as long as the items are tradable on the AH, you never "miss out" completely as you can buy one if you want ti badly enough.

Xenavire
04-10-2015, 11:00 AM
I am not thinking of an amount that would be gone in 20 minutes. It should be able to last 4-5 days at least. doesn't have to be super rare, if its an item that is actually useful people will want it. Just so there is less released then 4 per player. I would think maybe enough so 2 per the numbers of players of this game, so a playset for half the people. Most people would want to keep theirs, the ones willing to sell would get good amounts. And don't just do it once per 3-4 months but once every few weeks, so you have lots of chances.

This is why I keep saying AA's - they aren't required, but are highly sought after, and can be limited even further without actually screwing anyone over. In fact, you could make it like the filk apes in the release events - do a single weekend, and have the cards drop 100% of the time if the normal item would drop (as a replacement), encouraging people to play new content like crazy.

If they include consumable boosts sold for gold, it would be very similar to dropping tons of plat drafting (people would unload tons of gold on consumables to make things go as fast as possible.)

Definitely better than making an insanely rare card.


(I could live with a '2 per player' kind of deal, in terms of numbers, because that isn't insanely unobtainable at least.)

SirLuxor
04-10-2015, 11:14 AM
And if there will be possible create a vendor, where sell pve cards or equipment for a standard price? like a lil amount of gold.
idk like 100 for common - 200 uncommon - 300 rare and 500 for legendary?
Items and pve cards are possibly infinite and we just need few of them (just 1 for equip for example) and new players will reach them easily too so will be hard if not impossible to sell in few time, maybe can be a good idea

bootlace
04-10-2015, 11:33 AM
That said I think you're preferences are simply different form others (mine). I'd argue that as long as the items are tradable on the AH, you never "miss out" completely as you can buy one if you want ti badly enough.

I just don't like the idea of people asking how you beat Dungeon X, and when you answer 'I used that exclusive merc and these 2 exclusive cards' they just roll their eyes and think you P2W'd it.

malloc31
04-10-2015, 11:40 AM
This is why I keep saying AA's - they aren't required, but are highly sought after, and can be limited even further without actually screwing anyone over. In fact, you could make it like the filk apes in the release events - do a single weekend, and have the cards drop 100% of the time if the normal item would drop (as a replacement), encouraging people to play new content like crazy.

If they include consumable boosts sold for gold, it would be very similar to dropping tons of plat drafting (people would unload tons of gold on consumables to make things go as fast as possible.)

Definitely better than making an insanely rare card.


(I could live with a '2 per player' kind of deal, in terms of numbers, because that isn't insanely unobtainable at least.)

What about those of us who don't care about AA's and only care about cards that make their decks better?

Xenavire
04-10-2015, 11:47 AM
What about those of us who don't care about AA's and only care about cards that make their decks better?

Then you can get the normal versions - and maybe get some of the AA's to sell for other things you need. Much better than having no access to the cards that make your deck better - see what I mean?

vylqun
04-10-2015, 11:49 AM
3. Some super rare items that the vast majority of players can't realistically hope to own is a feature not a bug in TCG's as long as it's not taken to excess.

its bad as soon as those cards enable interesting playstyles. Just because u were hospitalized for a month shouldnt mean u miss out interesting cards.



4. PvE isn't a competitive format so I see no need for all cards to be available in sufficient numbers for all players to get one. And if the PvE card set does get used for something competitive they could ban these cards if it were a problem for the new format.

thats just wrong, pve can be a competive format, and as far as i know hex definitely aims at it to be competive in the future, having exclusive cards which only a few ppl can get would either mean those cards have to be damn weak, or that they'd be banned in every major pvp content.

Ertzi
04-12-2015, 01:57 PM
I hate the idea of a depleting PvE loot pool with a burning passion. Market value of trade goods dropping over time is not a disaster. No quick-fix needed.

Banquetto
04-12-2015, 02:28 PM
It feels like this idea would just entrench the haves and the have-nots.

Think: new PvE content is released, with new limited cards as drops.

Who is most likely to get the drops? The experienced, hardcore players who have fine collections already, with good PvE cards and equipment, combined with good skills at the game. They will tear up new content while newer and more casual players beat their heads against it. And they will get the limited cards causing the drop rate to fall or even become unavailable for those players.

Result: rich get richer, poor get nothing. Always a risky design for a game.

Xexist
04-12-2015, 03:44 PM
I think the crafting system will have to take some out of the economy. I also think they should really be less generous with the drops AND reduce drop rate of rares/legendaries (currently WAY too high). It's pretty ridiculous spending only 40 minutes on an Arena run and getting like 15 pieces of equipment/card. Anyone else remember doing some dungeon in an MMO like WoW for 1.5 hours and hoping to get just ONE rare quality item? In the end it devalues all loot and you're hardly excited about what you're going to get because you already have it all and it's all just worth pennies. Bigger loot pool will help a bit, but the speed at which everything dropped in value was way too fast, drop rates must be adjusted.

1.5 hours? I would spend all evening just for a *chance* at getting legendary/epic loot. I agree with you and it was GREAT feeling when you got that loot.

IronPheasant
04-12-2015, 07:39 PM
I can agree that getting an equipment drop in Hex currently does not excite me. Unless there's some huge change to how that system works, I'd call it a weak point of the game.

Don't like how they throw balance all out of whack either - turning perfectly powerful cards into ungodly monsters. Tinkerer's Robe, giving a free one-sided Heat Wave every single turn and therefore turning your one mana mechanist into a seven or eight mana troop, just being a poster child. That just renders Rootfathers, Spearcliff Cavaliers, etc completely superfluous.

Kind of assumed gear would modify the champion directly when I heard about the concept of the game years ago. Never really understood how the items shown on kickstarter would work. Thought the cards could equip upgrades, like socketed items. Maybe even requiring "leveling up" for a gear slot to open up?

But seeing a card drop still tickles my carecat a bit. Mission accomplished on that front.

Turtlewing
04-13-2015, 08:25 AM
its bad as soon as those cards enable interesting playstyles. Just because u were hospitalized for a month shouldnt mean u miss out interesting cards.


That's what the AH is for. You never completely "miss out" on anything that can be traded if you want it badly enough to buy it from someone who "was there".



thats just wrong, pve can be a competive format, and as far as i know hex definitely aims at it to be competive in the future, having exclusive cards which only a few ppl can get would either mean those cards have to be damn weak, or that they'd be banned in every major pvp content.

Not it can't.

If there are other players you're competing against than it has become PvP. You can make a PvP metagame around content that as designed to be PvE (like speed runs, or world first achievements), but those are separate formats from the PvE without the added meta-game. And in those cases they could simply ban the cards if they're problematic (they probably wouldn't be because something this rare doesn't actually have to be good to be valuable so chances are they're not going to be bombs or format staples)

Salverus
04-13-2015, 09:52 AM
I do not like this idea, if this is added,
i expect that when a new dungeon / arena comes the first few hours will be critical since the drop chance is high. After that, drop chances will be pretty much non existant and you can only acquire it on the market for the next 3 months !!
(since it takes 3 months before the active player pool starts decreasing from the players that just acquired the card)

Yoss
04-13-2015, 05:28 PM
I do not like the OP idea. All we need is crafting to consume unwanted items/cards and we're done. No fancy loot drop algorithm required.


And if there will be possible create a vendor, where sell pve cards or equipment for a standard price? like a lil amount of gold.
idk like 100 for common - 200 uncommon - 300 rare and 500 for legendary?
Items and pve cards are possibly infinite and we just need few of them (just 1 for equip for example) and new players will reach them easily too so will be hard if not impossible to sell in few time, maybe can be a good idea

This would be a good work around until we have crafting. Just sell unwanted stuff to NPC at some small gold price.

zadies
04-13-2015, 05:55 PM
No getting a few of the same equipment repeatedly doesn't excite, but unless you've been playing like mad(and I do mean mad I know for a fact even some of the hard core players like king gabe are missing pieces), or have used the ah I can't see how it is near possible to have 1 of every peice of equipment. Without a crafting system to dispose of said equipment getting 20 of the same piece can seem like it is 0 progression, but eventually they will be reagents for crafting so....

Tazelbain
04-14-2015, 08:03 AM
Causal, low-investment players have lots of disadvantages. I don't see any changes you can make to the loot structure that helps. Things that will help: new PvP content, fixing human, shin'hare starters, Fix AI so that they can handle aggro, updating the AH.

Also I think you could put in some consumables in the loot chests.