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Disappointment
04-11-2015, 08:51 AM
So, I think we can all agree that, while it functions well enough, the Auction House could use a bit of tweaking. Listing and searching is a pain, and some of that is being hampered by the intended design of the cards. The double-back tracking makes every card unique, tracking the previous owners, experience, etc, and that's excellent. It's a great system, and I'm super excited for it to to be implemented, but it seems to put a bit more weight on the in-game trading system.

However, let's be frank a second. No one cares who previously owned a card unless you're a famous person. If you're Lightreaper and you're selling the Midnight Shepherds from your surprise tourney-winning deck, sure. That could be a collector's item. If you're me, selling the Life Siphons from your Blood Control deck, that's... not quite as enticing. Also, yes, I know half of you reading this are saying "Who is Lightreaper? Why would I care about that?" which honestly kind of furthers my point here.

My solution to this is the following:

A two-part auction house system, using a both a trading post and an auction house.

THE TRADING POST

The Trading Post would be used for mass moving. Things that people don't care as much about. Your commons and uncommons, things that there's a lot of, where one is as good as the other.

I'm going to use the Trading Post from Guild Wars 2 as an example, because it is pretty dang good.

http://i.imgur.com/KCvtH27.jpg

This is the main purchasing screen from GW2. You have a lot of good information displayed and easily read.
You have two options when you want to buy an item. You can buy one of the available ones, listed on the bottom right, or you also have the orders, where you can name your own price, and if someone thinks that is fair, they'll fill that order you placed.

http://i.imgur.com/EjosVY5.jpg

Here's your main selling screen, which is structured in the same way. The left side shows the people who have put up orders, if you want an instant sale for a little less, or you can put it up on the market on the right side.

http://i.imgur.com/gTykz5X.jpg

Here you have the management window, which is very straightforward. There's no limit on how long an item can stay up on the TP. As you can see, I've got a few items that I priced at silly costs a while ago that never sold.
(For the nerds: GW2's TP uses a web interface, so it's pulling up an ASP (or other language, but I'm betting its asp.net) page from a web server into an in-game browser window)

AUCTION HOUSE

So, you plebs have your bins full of crap. Where's the fancy stuff? I've got the money to drop, let's see something worth looking at!

http://i.imgur.com/ibbMRE3.jpg

The showcase of the neat stuff. Tourney-winning cards. Double-back maxed stuff. Things that are worth taking separate note of. You wouldn't toss these things into a bin with your standard stuff.

This part is the easy one. It's basically what we have now, which is generally fine. However, I'd recommend adding a simple text field that will show up on the auction. This would let people know why someone should care about this specific card.

"This is my tourney winning Lixil. She's first-placed three constructed tournaments in my decks, and has [DOUBLEBACK PERK] and [DOUBLEBACK PERK]." - [SELLER]
So, we know who is selling it, and why we should care. Of course, you should be able to see all of this information on the double-back before purchasing.




So, efficiency for the big pile of common stuff that is just a pain to deal with, and then a showcase for the interesting things. Yes, I'm aware that two separate trade systems is a bit clunky, but Hex deals in a fairly unique product, where there's not really an elegant solution, at least that I'm seeing at the moment.

If you compare this to a physical store, there's the big boxes of cards that are 2-for-a-buck rares, or "who cares, grab a handful" common boxes. But there's also the display case, where the stuff that's more interesting or valuable goes.

I think it's a pretty good compromise between usability and getting full use of Hex's unique cards. Just something to think about for the future.

Yoss
04-11-2015, 09:03 AM
I agree. Check the link in my sig about the AH

KingGabriel
04-11-2015, 10:36 AM
Who wants to buy KingGabriel's KingGabriels :D

Banquetto
04-11-2015, 04:40 PM
I wish I could agree more than 100%. I think EVE Online shows the way with a marketplace for commodities, and a "contract" system for sales or auctions of more interesting items. And I think GW2's implementation of the marketplace is about as good a one as I've ever seen.

zadies
04-11-2015, 06:01 PM
The issue is that you all seem to want to treat things as bulk sales and the hex team has no desire at all to do that because it eliminates making the cards unique with he double backs.

Svenn
04-11-2015, 06:27 PM
I wish I could agree more than 100%. I think EVE Online shows the way with a marketplace for commodities, and a "contract" system for sales or auctions of more interesting items. And I think GW2's implementation of the marketplace is about as good a one as I've ever seen.

Pretty much this. I would love a system like this. It's been posted around before. I expect we'll see some good improvements over time but it would be nice to know what they have planned.

ossuary
04-11-2015, 07:58 PM
For the record, Chark (the dev largely responsible for this stuff) has agreed with people like myself, Yoss, and others, who have been pushing for a Bid/Ask system from day one. That is the direction they are going to be moving in eventually, what we have now is just version one of the auction house.

Personally, I've been pushing EVE Online's system as the pinnacle of good design and convenient features for all parties.

Tachi_The_Lion
04-11-2015, 10:03 PM
Wooo, ZING~

Xexist
04-11-2015, 10:55 PM
The issue is that you all seem to want to treat things as bulk sales and the hex team has no desire at all to do that because it eliminates making the cards unique with he double backs.

The thing is, no one is really going to give much crap about the double backs, unless they are maxed out or close to maxed out or have hard to hit achievements finished. Mostly if someone wants to buy a playset of some random card, or even a prebuilt deck, they just want it as cheap as possible.

Gwaer
04-11-2015, 10:59 PM
We actually have no idea what people will end up caring about. So many things in hex don't really fit with the expected norms, from the kickstarter, to the gold/plat exchange never syncing up between different items.

Zophie
04-11-2015, 11:08 PM
Personally, I've been pushing EVE Online's system as the pinnacle of good design and convenient features for all parties.

A market like EVE's would be excellent for Hex, I totally support this

Xexist
04-12-2015, 05:22 AM
We actually have no idea what people will end up caring about. So many things in hex don't really fit with the expected norms, from the kickstarter, to the gold/plat exchange never syncing up between different items.

Well I am a people, and I don't care about the double backs 'for the most part'. I mean when I am filling in a playset I will just take whatever. Maybe some cards with hard achievements, or once I have a playset I will want to 'improve' my playset. But my first priority would be just getting the card period.

As a people, I am confident in what people want :p

ossuary
04-12-2015, 07:15 AM
To be fair, it's very hard to care about something that we know almost nothing about, and haven't seen or used yet. It's fine to be skeptical, but you can't know for sure that you're not going to absolutely love double backs in a year and not be able to even grok the idea of NOT tracking a card's life in this manner.

Stok3d
04-12-2015, 07:32 AM
That is the direction they are going to be moving in eventually

This is news to me.

bootlace
04-12-2015, 07:42 AM
If you introduce a Bid/Ask system here is what's going to happen IMO:

1) Card prices (and hence collection values) drop to MTGO (which has has a less efficient bid/ask system through buying and selling bots) levels / 2 (pack price is half). So that probably means most rares at 1/2 cent.

2) You turn valuable rare cards that people drool over into commodity status (imagine a Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros in WoW being in a bid/ask system and how ridiculous that is).

3) You no longer require (or at least make it as desirable) for people to have rich collections - one of the staples of a TCG - because you can simply and conveniently rent anything you want at any time at a 5% or so fee. We already know players do this off-line and there's even services (http://www.sparedeck.com/) for it, and this system just makes it much easier and accessible to everyone. A big 100k tourney qualifier or VIP tournament or raid you need a deck for? Just buy it from the AH and a few hours after using it sell it all right back, incurring only a small fee.

4) Cards/equipment are not commodities that have general and consistent use and function, so what will happen most times with say a random piece of equipment is that supply is going to be several times more than any type of demand for it (this problem gets compounded the more items are in the game and there will tens of thousands eventually). This will needlessly drive prices to the floor and take away any profit making potential from F2Pers who could have benefited from current system to make some money, I've described this in detail here (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=41726&page=16&p=474859&viewfull=1#post474859).

5) Less important to me but might be valid for some in a TRADING card game: you take away trading as a craft and replace it with a machine that mediates everything. In a social game already stripping out most interaction between players due to the digital nature, this system removes most of the need for trading, trade chats - which currently constitutes a large chunk of the interaction between players.

6) Double backs don't fit into this system at all.

7) The whole Bid/Ask system sounds innocent and democratic on the surface but it allows for massive exploitation and cornering of the market. Let's say some popular streamer makes use of a forgotten old equipment, some player could immediately go into the AH and immediately buy up a huge quantity of the available stock for this equipment at low prices and then move all of the sell orders much higher. Now when someone wants to go buy it, they will notice a huge gap when looking at bid vs ask but because all the inventory is now owned by one person, you won't have the sell orders slowly being filled at lower prices as is the case today because most people would have just sold their stock of that equipment that was indefinitely listed on the AH.

I imagine a lot of the people in favor of this kind of system (not aimed at anyone in this thread) want to do exactly things like this: they want to 'play the AH' or should I say 'abuse' it and don't actually really care for making things better for new players or F2Ps or anything of that sort.

TLDR: Bid/ask system for things like packs and crafting mats is fine, otherwise I believe there are real repercussions to this kind of system. If my assessment for any specific point is off, please let me know, I'm open to reconsideration.

Stok3d
04-12-2015, 07:56 AM
removed

ossuary
04-12-2015, 08:22 AM
We've covered the merits of Bid/Ask over auction-only markets multiple times in the past. Yoss has the major thread linked in his signature, I believe. It's fairly trivial to include functionality to support all the features that double backs would bring in that system (in fact it would make it easier to find those things than a traditional, cost-centric endeavor like the types of AHes you usually see in MMOs like WoW). All it takes is a little smart design and lots of filtering options. On the surface, it looks identical to a normal AH for beginning users, but works slightly better when they're looking for something specific, but under the hood there's a lot of extra functionality that more experienced users can take advantage of to narrow their search.

It also allows players to still use the auction house for very rare items without having to constantly relist it and pray someone happens to stumble on it. Currently, they have to spam chat channels or go to outside venues to try to make people aware of their willingness to sell... with BAS, they just list it at the price they're willing to sell for, and anyone can find it whether the player is online or not based on the criteria they're looking for. It's far more elegant, without losing ANY of the features or capabilities of a traditional auction system (if designed properly). Yoss and I have both gone over all of this at length.

zadies
04-12-2015, 08:06 PM
I agree with bootlace, the attempts to redesign the ah are just for easy of ah manipulation not because they are good ideas. The EV of the packs and sets as it is creates a barrier to entry currently but once that barrier is crossed a decent player can go infinite, with a redesigned ah that becomes much harder to do. For a f2p the carrot on a stick of the ability to go infinite much easier is probably a better driving force then a low barrier to entry because instead of one large wall you put up multiple walls.

x78089
04-12-2015, 08:37 PM
I appreciate the friction the current AH creates, thus keeping prices stable. Efficiency is not always better. No matter the decision, there will always be winners and losers, but stable decent card prices is in my mind the best route to go.

Xexist
04-12-2015, 08:50 PM
grok .

haha. awesome. I totally grok.

Xenavire
04-12-2015, 08:50 PM
I do think there needs to be some QoL changes for listing. I have tried a few times recently - gave up quickly because there are too many minor annoyances.

Cowbot
04-12-2015, 09:24 PM
Wait, x78089 are you seriously arguing that the design goal should be an inefficient, hard to use AH with a bad UI? There are definitely better ways to stabilize prices.

Also, bootlace, there is no single thing we can do to help F2P players more than lower the burden of entry. That burden right now is expensive cards. It's very hard to get into constructed right now for precisely this reason.

Biz
04-12-2015, 09:38 PM
it would be so much simpler if each card had a single price which gets updated in real-time based on supply/demand

exact card supply & demand can also be virtual (but instantaneous) in the form of buy/sell orders

magic_gazz
04-12-2015, 09:42 PM
Wait, x78089 are you seriously arguing that the design goal should be an inefficient, hard to use AH with a bad UI? There are definitely better ways to stabilize prices.

Also, bootlace, there is no single thing we can do to help F2P players more than lower the burden of entry. That burden right now is expensive cards. It's very hard to get into constructed right now for precisely this reason.

There are a ton of cards available for a few cents each. It is pretty cheap to throw together a deck.

If you are talking about a competitive deck however then obviously they should not all be cheap otherwise our cards are worthless.

x78089
04-12-2015, 10:35 PM
Wait, x78089 are you seriously arguing that the design goal should be an inefficient, hard to use AH with a bad UI? There are definitely better ways to stabilize prices.

Also, bootlace, there is no single thing we can do to help F2P players more than lower the burden of entry. That burden right now is expensive cards. It's very hard to get into constructed right now for precisely this reason.

Set that straw man up so you can knock it down. I am not arguing anything first of all, merely expressing an opinion that we (CZE) should not be hasty in creating a super efficient marketplace. it sounds great in theory, but it can have some serious repercussions. if cards have some value, it will lead to greater pack cracking. if cards are worthless it will hurt this. See the MTGO examples to understand my worry. The current system adds enough friction to keep supply and demand somewhat balanced and encourages P2P trading which I consider to be a plus.

To rely to a later post, constructed will always be tough as a F2P player. But, a F2P players is much more likely to spend money if he sees value in cracking packs. There is very little value if 90% of rares trade for less than 10p (this statement is based on anecdotal stories from MTGO and may or may not be totally accurate). Cards having some residual value is a good thing.

Zophie
04-12-2015, 11:20 PM
I can't believe some people want to artificially inflate the value of cards by maintaining an inefficient marketplace. That sounds so shady just saying it. Let the card values speak for themselves in an open and functional economy. Don't forget that a better market doesn't just mean more people selling, but more people buying as well. If you want your collections to keep and gain value in the long run, then you should understand improvements to the AH are necessary. Forcing the price through a crappy system is not the answer, and it will only harm the health of the game and do a lot of damage to the value of our collections long term. It's important that the AH is enhanced to encourage mass participation and universal adoption of the economy by everyone, not just those with enough free time to spend hours trying to sell handfuls of cards. If you're afraid of losing your edge because everyone else can participate in the market as easily as you can, then you're just going to need to adapt.

x78089
04-12-2015, 11:31 PM
How is the current economy not open and functional now? Despite all the consternation, the AH is seeing significant daily use. Cards are available and prices are fluctuating up and down. Nothing shady about it. My only point is to consider the ramifications of what you are asking for. Just b/c I like the balance of the current setup does not make me a bad person, or a manipulator of the economy. If you have to resort to ad hominem attacks it generally signifies a weak argument. Your last sentence makes no sense, everyone has equal access. No one is left out, unless they choose not to participate.

Zophie
04-12-2015, 11:38 PM
Here's a better way to put it:

If I were to ask you "Why is your collection so valuable?"

What should be the correct answer:

A: "Because these cards are awesome!"

or

B: "Because it's so time consuming and such a headache to sell cards that I can sell for higher prices since hardly anyone bothers to sell anything."


My only point is to consider the ramifications of what you are asking for.

Do you even know what we're asking for? We're asking for quality of life improvements to the AH to make it easier to buy and sell cards without making it as painfully time consuming as it is right now.

Yes, everyone has equal access to the market. But not everyone has the time and patience to use it. This is not good for the long term health of the game. I care about the value of my collection, as do many other players, even brand new ones still deciding how much they want to invest in the game.

Gwaer
04-12-2015, 11:44 PM
I also think that making it significantly easier to list cards will cause prices to go down, I do not think that is absolutely a bad thing, but a controlled situation where the card prices fall slowly would be superior to one where all of a sudden every extra card is listed because there's a list all button.

Features added to the ah that gradually increases liquidity as new players join up seems ideal. All that said I very much doubt we'll see a super efficient marketplace simply because of the complexity of the items being sold. Some people think that cards are basic commodities, however from my interactions with the devs I think they do not see any card that way, to them each card is a completely separate item, with differing values based on any number of factors. And though you may not care that a particular baby yeti was the first card to deal a death blow to a particular boss, if it were a more expensive card that could drive the price up for that specific card. As such no matter what people's popular opinion is on a card each one will be tracked like it's that unique super valuable one. Because of that I'm not even sure if they know how they want to implement things like bulk trading. It may be that they can't implement it and it'll be a grey market feature. Time will tell, though my interactions with CZE has left me with the opposite take as ossuary is expressing with the inevitability of these features.

Zophie
04-12-2015, 11:53 PM
There's still room in a buy/sell system like EVE has for cards/items to maintain their individuality. The people who don't care about that will of course just go for the cheaper ones, but you should still be able to browse listings for individual records and traits on cards for sale, and I'm sure there will be filters to help pin point certain characteristics you might be interested in.

I don't think the whole system needs to be streamlined to a "list all" button - but it could certainly be made a lot simpler and efficient to sell individual cards/items. For example, I should be able to go through my collection and sell directly to the market from there. When I initiate the sale I should be able to get a list of current prices along side that, as well as buy orders I could fill, and it should be possible to do it quickly and with little effort, ideally only taking a couple seconds to list, and little things along the way should save like the default sorting methods, what currency I'm selling in, etc. Maybe even help me out by suggesting an basic undercut amount for me when I initiate the sale. Also from a buyer standpoint I should be able to do similar, when browsing cards I don't have in my collection I should be able to quickly click an option to buy them, and have a list of available sales pop up for me to pick from, or an option to post a buy order directly from the same screen.

Voormas
04-12-2015, 11:55 PM
Having two systems is a great idea, I think the AHv2 could use something like that - but I think until there are more players and crafting is in the game (which will remove cards from circulation) it isn't / shouldn't be a huge priority

Also to all the people saying that cards aren't a commodity; 1) he is advocating the two systems run side by side 2) there are things in the game which definitely are a commodity - packs, mercs, equipment, crafting materials when they are implemented, etc

Cowbot
04-13-2015, 01:01 AM
A more efficient market helps everyone.

I agree with Voormas on all their points. Along those lines, Gwaer, if changes to the AH are implemented alongside crafting, I think you'll see the market not crash entirely. Being able to remove cards from circulation is pretty critical.

We don't want cards to be totally worthless, but prices could stand to drop considerably.

bootlace
04-13-2015, 01:13 AM
Also, bootlace, there is no single thing we can do to help F2P players more than lower the burden of entry. That burden right now is expensive cards. It's very hard to get into constructed right now for precisely this reason.

I don't know why it should be a goal of ours to help F2Pers build competitive constructed decks (PvP side) for free/cheap, that's the one area that if they're interested in the game they should cough up some money and contribute to the game's development along with the rest of the paying playerbase. There are cheap decks one can compete with, and maybe that's where HexEnt can balance their game (if they wish to allow new players to compete at a budget): to always allow some cheap (heavily common/uncommon based) deck to be 'good' in constructed play.



snip

I'm not against AH improvements but the ideas suggested like the Bid/Ask system and indefinite listing times are problematic and I've laid out reasons why. I've yet to hear my points addressed individually and referring me to some old thread or jumbling a bunch of grievances against the AH together and hoping to make a point is not convincing.

I'm all for more information, more stats, better UI, and pretty much any QoL improvement that doesn't just mass dump everybody's excess stock onto the AH and break the supply/demand equation beyond repair.

For example I'm totally fine with buy orders being listed and stacking indefinitely on the AH. Players can browse these buy orders and liquidate any card they're fine with parting at that price. It's when you stack the sell orders together, without a fee, without any listing time, in mass fashion that the problems start to form.

PS: Please people stop calling the AH 'crap', new players are actually going to think HexEnt have been incompetent while they're the first ones to actually implement a proper AH at all in the TCG genre (in a game in Beta, developing MVP features no less).

PPS: It doesn't take 'hours' to list your stuff. You're not suppose to list your 72 Rigid Buffalos or 25 Dandelion Arm Guards just like you're not suppose to list an excess pair of socks in a real life AH. I'm sure there will be F2Pers happy to fill that role.

PPPS: Every single market is manipulated in some fashion - and not even talking chump markets but trillion dollar ones like Oil, Precious Metals, IPOs, FX, Bonds, Derivatives. If HexEnt can make some slight adjustments to the game so that our collections are slightly 'inflated', then I don't see the harm in it. Afterall everyone invested in the game benefits: the new players/F2P contemplating whether it's "worth" drafting, the serious players calculating the EV of pouring another grand into the game, the players wishing to cash out and using these 'inflated' prices as the base for the sell price, and of course HexEnt themselves.

Zurai
04-13-2015, 01:40 AM
I don't know why it should be a goal of ours to help F2Pers build competitive constructed decks (PvP side) for free/cheap

You are the first person to mention that in this thread. Absolutely nowhere is that mentioned or implied as a goal, and a more efficient auction house isn't going to drop the price of Angels of Dawn, Reese the Crustcrawlers, AA Cerulean Mirror Knights, or any other expensive but readily available item in any appreciable way. Those items aren't really affected very much by the inefficiency of the auction house. What is affected are bulk items and extremely rare items. Bulk items are bulk items for a reason, so their price won't change much. The extremely rare items are things like Gax and AA Ozawa that you can't even find most days on the AH because the supply is so small and the auction duration is too short. Being able to list them indefinitely wouldn't tank their value, it would make them actually sellable.

Cowbot
04-13-2015, 01:47 AM
I'm not supposed to list my cards for sale? Why can't I sell all my 72 Rigid Buffalos if I want to?

Also, clearly (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Womens-Pre-Owned-Used-Condition-Socks-Ankle-Athletic-Gym-Socks-Super-Absorbent-/201327867864?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee01377d8) you (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Womens-Pre-Owned-Pink-Sheer-Peds-Stockings-Really-Soft-and-Stretchy-One-Size-/251910161007?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aa704026f) have (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Pre-Owned-Used-Worn-Nylon-Knee-Highs-Sheer-Toe-Socks-One-Size-Fits-Most-/271832040809?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4a73c569)not (http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-PREOWNED-WOMENS-GIRLS-KNEE-HIGH-WHITE-GYM-SOCKS-/331524504240?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d30667ab0)been (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-6-knee-high-thigh-and-high-socks-/291428602613?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43da7f92f5)on (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Womens-pre-owned-athletic-thin-ankle-socks-/181713418850?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a4ef6ba62)Ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Womens-Vtg-Socks-Peds-Dr-Scholls-Hosettes-Nylons-Foot-Covers-Lot-99-Auction-/221740004796?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a0bbf5bc).

EVERY ONE of those posts on Ebay has a bid. But I guess they're doing it wrong because they're "not supposed" to sell their used socks?

Also, if I can't sell my cards, then they really don't have value.

Edit: Zurai, actually I did mention constructed decks. I regret doing so, as it is off-topic. That is why I did not follow-up on that line of thought.

bootlace
04-13-2015, 01:50 AM
The extremely rare items are things like Gax and AA Ozawa that you can't even find most days on the AH because the supply is so small and the auction duration is too short. Being able to list them indefinitely wouldn't tank their value, it would make them actually sellable.

This is a good point, I think the current work-around is asking around for someone and doing a more traditional 'trade'. However going forward this model isn't so sustainable. I think a new type of listing that increased duration to a week (or maybe even a month) let's say at the cost of a listing fee might be a good way to handle these really rare items?

Cowbot
04-13-2015, 02:19 AM
You asked for a line-by-line takedown, so here we go.


If you introduce a Bid/Ask system here is what's going to happen IMO:

1) Card prices (and hence collection values) drop to MTGO (which has has a less efficient bid/ask system through buying and selling bots) levels / 2 (pack price is half). So that probably means most rares at 1/2 cent.

This is a good thing. The lower prices are, the more skill-based Hex becomes (as opposed to "pay to win.")


2) You turn valuable rare cards that people drool over into commodity status (imagine a Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros in WoW being in a bid/ask system and how ridiculous that is).

No. There would be a separate auction house where unique cards can be traded, or filters on the trading post to allow people to find these unique items.


3) You no longer require (or at least make it as desirable) for people to have rich collections - one of the staples of a TCG - because you can simply and conveniently rent anything you want at any time at a 5% or so fee. We already know players do this off-line and there's even services (http://www.sparedeck.com/) for it, and this system just makes it much easier and accessible to everyone. A big 100k tourney qualifier or VIP tournament or raid you need a deck for? Just buy it from the AH and a few hours after using it sell it all right back, incurring only a small fee.

As Zophie said, collections should be valuable because cards are awesome. Also, I think such a renting system would be fantastic. I hope someone does it. I draft a lot, and I get cards that way. But I wanted to play in constructed for a VIP tournament. Currently, I had to decide between wasting cash on the AH to buy cards I wanted, instead of getting those cards via drafting, or just not playing with those cards. I'd love to have been able to rent some Reese instead of buying them.


4) Cards/equipment are not commodities that have general and consistent use and function, so what will happen most times with say a random piece of equipment is that supply is going to be several times more than any type of demand for it (this problem gets compounded the more items are in the game and there will tens of thousands eventually). This will needlessly drive prices to the floor and take away any profit making potential from F2Pers who could have benefited from current system to make some money, I've described this in detail here (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=41726&page=16&p=474859&viewfull=1#post474859).

In the vast majority of cases, cards are exactly that: consistent in use and function. They should be treated as a commodity because they are one. For the cases where they aren't, just click filters for whatever double-back feature you want, or check the auction house for Lightreaper's Midnight Shepherd.


5) Less important to me but might be valid for some in a TRADING card game: you take away trading as a craft and replace it with a machine that mediates everything. In a social game already stripping out most interaction between players due to the digital nature, this system removes most of the need for trading, trade chats - which currently constitutes a large chunk of the interaction between players.

As long as there is a transaction fee, there will always be trades outside of the system.


6) Double backs don't fit into this system at all.

When double backs matter, they can be filtered for, or placed on the auction house rather than the trading post, as described in the OP.


7) The whole Bid/Ask system sounds innocent and democratic on the surface but it allows for massive exploitation and cornering of the market. Let's say some popular streamer makes use of a forgotten old equipment, some player could immediately go into the AH and immediately buy up a huge quantity of the available stock for this equipment at low prices and then move all of the sell orders much higher. Now when someone wants to go buy it, they will notice a huge gap when looking at bid vs ask but because all the inventory is now owned by one person, you won't have the sell orders slowly being filled at lower prices as is the case today because most people would have just sold their stock of that equipment that was indefinitely listed on the AH.

This scenario is highly unlikely, and really, not that harmful. This is how market speculation works, and is not "exploitation." Some people will just luck out, or purposefully put themselves in situations where they'll be able to closely track market trends. Skill in economics isn't exploiting.


I imagine a lot of the people in favor of this kind of system (not aimed at anyone in this thread) want to do exactly things like this: they want to 'play the AH' or should I say 'abuse' it and don't actually really care for making things better for new players or F2Ps or anything of that sort.

Cheap cards that you can buy conveniently sounds pretty good for F2P players. They'd be able to jump in and get started quickly without arduous grinding.

bootlace
04-13-2015, 02:30 AM
I'm not supposed to list my cards for sale? Why can't I sell all my 72 Rigid Buffalos if I want to?

Also, clearly (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Womens-Pre-Owned-Used-Condition-Socks-Ankle-Athletic-Gym-Socks-Super-Absorbent-/201327867864?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ee01377d8) you (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Womens-Pre-Owned-Pink-Sheer-Peds-Stockings-Really-Soft-and-Stretchy-One-Size-/251910161007?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aa704026f) have (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Pre-Owned-Used-Worn-Nylon-Knee-Highs-Sheer-Toe-Socks-One-Size-Fits-Most-/271832040809?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4a73c569)not (http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-PREOWNED-WOMENS-GIRLS-KNEE-HIGH-WHITE-GYM-SOCKS-/331524504240?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d30667ab0)been (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-6-knee-high-thigh-and-high-socks-/291428602613?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43da7f92f5)on (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Womens-pre-owned-athletic-thin-ankle-socks-/181713418850?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a4ef6ba62)Ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Womens-Vtg-Socks-Peds-Dr-Scholls-Hosettes-Nylons-Foot-Covers-Lot-99-Auction-/221740004796?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a0bbf5bc).

EVERY ONE of those posts on Ebay has a bid. But I guess they're doing it wrong because they're "not supposed" to sell their used socks?

Also, if I can't sell my cards, then they really don't have value.

Edit: Zurai, actually I did mention constructed decks. I regret doing so, as it is off-topic. That is why I did not follow-up on that line of thought.

When I said real-life Auction House I meant the traditional Auction Houses where valuable items are sold in person - probably a poor example so I'll let it go.

As for your Rigid Buffalos, you can sell them never said you couldn't - but you're either going to be selling them at a fraction of pennies ($0.002) conveniently or for better prices through the current system. Either way it's not really worth your while - hence the 'not suppose to'. I honestly don't mind commons/uncommons being mass listed and listed indefinitely but it's a problem when you apply that to rares/legendaries/promos/mercs etc. Can they make a seperate system for both? Sounds a bit clunky but who knows.

Cowbot
04-13-2015, 02:35 AM
Thank you for clarifying what you meant as "not supposed to." I now understand it to mean that doing so is just not worth my time.

Please clarify why you think the system would be fine for commons but not for those cards of higher rarity, as I don't understand why you're drawing a line there.

Banquetto
04-13-2015, 03:02 AM
PS: Please people stop calling the AH 'crap', new players are actually going to think HexEnt have been incompetent while they're the first ones to actually implement a proper AH at all in the TCG genre (in a game in Beta, developing MVP features no less).

Building an inferior copy of the Auction House WoW has had for more than ten years now doesn't suddenly become an impressive achievement just because you're using it to sell cards rather than swords and armour and copper ore.

bootlace
04-13-2015, 03:15 AM
Thank you for clarifying what you meant as "not supposed to." I now understand it to mean that doing so is just not worth my time.

Please clarify why you think the system would be fine for commons but not for those cards of higher rarity, as I don't understand why you're drawing a line there.

Like I said commons are not actually worth anything so their price 'plummeting' from '0.04c' to '0.004c' is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things (even if it's a 10x difference). As for the 'money' cards, indefinite listing (mass listing is not even the real problem) makes sure the supply is constantly overwhelming the demand leading to prices to drop because all the excess supply in existence is competing daily for one day's worth of demand (so it's no wonder the demand/supply intersection is out of whack). MTGO has this situation and their Magic 2015 pack costs nearly $4 but the pack contents (EV) is less than $1. It fluctuates from set to set but you usually lose at least 50% of the value the second you crack a pack.

Imagine you need a glass of water - the price you're going to pay for it depends on the supply situation. If you're out in a park or the cinema or some restaurant your supply options are limited so the seller can charge more and you're fine paying extra for the convenience. The indefinite listing situation is like every 'water seller' (Wal-Mart, Chinese wholesellers, that kid down the street with the lemonade stand looking to make some extra bucks) in the world simultaneously competing to sell you that water (my examples are terrible, apologies for that). Obviously prices drop, and sometimes it drops even below the cost of the item (imagine people who are desperate to quickly sell some rare to fund another draft or whatever). This practice of selling below cost is called 'dumping' and there is legislation in place to avoid this practice in trade agreements IRL. So actually everyone seems to be focused on preventing 'selling at inflated prices' but no one seems to care about what would happen otherwise: selling at below cost prices.

As for your other points from previous post - you're looking at it from the perspective of a F2Per while I'm looking at it from the perspective of an investor into the game - two opposing perspectives. A complex TCG like Hex is not going to survive on a F2P business model without turning into shit, sorry for being so blunt. And the economy you described: cheap cards, renting things instead of owning, not being nearly investment-worthy would lead me, and probably many paying customers to spend way less. MTG can get away with 'poor' short term EV because they have a huge history and their cards are known to get more valuable years into the future. Maybe Hex can survive it but at this point, doesn't sound like it's worth to piss off your paying customers.

Cowbot
04-13-2015, 03:27 AM
I respect we have differing opinions, but I would like to say that we should not advise HexEnt on what would be more profitable. They are the only ones with the financial data that would be able to support/debunk such choices. We don't know how much AH changes would affect the population, we don't know what percent of new players start and continue drafting, and we don't know how much those of us who invested in Hex actually spend monthly on Hex. We also don't know how many people would start jumping into the constructed queue if prices fell (and Hex certainly makes money from that). We simply don't have the facts. HexEnt does.

What we can advise about, is our experience. My experience is that the AH is greatly inferior than where I'd like it to be. I want my collection to be valuable and currently it isn't because I, practically speaking, cannot sell my cards. They have effectively limited me to "do you want to play Hex or do you want to play the AH." As my priority is actually on playing the game, I don't sell.

I would like the system to be upgraded to the point where I can sell and buy effectively from the AH without it severely impacting my playtime. If this makes cards cheaper, I would enjoy the ramifications of this, and it would not limit my drafting quantity because I love to draft.

So I think the suggestions made in the OP are great.

bootlace
04-13-2015, 03:34 AM
I respect we have differing opinions, but I would like to say that we should not advise HexEnt on what would be more profitable. They are the only ones with the financial data that would be able to support/debunk such choices. We don't know how much AH changes would affect the population, we don't know what percent of new players start and continue drafting, and we don't know how much those of us who invested in Hex actually spend monthly on Hex. We also don't know how many people would start jumping into the constructed queue if prices fell (and Hex certainly makes money from that). We simply don't have the facts. HexEnt does.

What we can advise about, is our experience. My experience is that the AH is greatly inferior than where I'd like it to be. I want my collection to be valuable and currently it isn't because I, practically speaking, cannot sell my cards. They have effectively limited me to "do you want to play Hex or do you want to play the AH." As my priority is actually on playing the game, I don't sell.

I would like the system to be upgraded to the point where I can sell and buy effectively from the AH without it severely impacting my playtime. If this makes cards cheaper, I would enjoy the ramifications of this, and it would not limit my drafting quantity because I love to draft.

So I think the suggestions made in the OP are great.

Fair enough. I think having buy orders would solve most of your problems. Buying side you just list once what you want and leave it, and on the sell side you can browse items and instantly sell into the demand as you see fit. My only problem is the supply stacking and I think even other games with more developed AHs have something in place to avoid that whether it be listing fee or something else.

Tazelbain
04-13-2015, 09:05 AM
I imagine a lot of the people in favor of this kind of system (not aimed at anyone in this thread) want to do exactly things like this: they want to 'play the AH' or should I say 'abuse' it and don't actually really care for making things better for new players or F2Ps or anything of that sort.
A general attack on people who disagree with you. Well, this protectionist fear-mongering by people (not aimed at anyone in this thread) want to keep the prices of their collection artificially inflated.

zadies
04-13-2015, 10:51 AM
I can't believe some people want to artificially inflate the value of cards by maintaining an inefficient marketplace. That sounds so shady just saying it. Let the card values speak for themselves in an open and functional economy. Don't forget that a better market doesn't just mean more people selling, but more people buying as well. If you want your collections to keep and gain value in the long run, then you should understand improvements to the AH are necessary. Forcing the price through a crappy system is not the answer, and it will only harm the health of the game and do a lot of damage to the value of our collections long term. It's important that the AH is enhanced to encourage mass participation and universal adoption of the economy by everyone, not just those with enough free time to spend hours trying to sell handfuls of cards. If you're afraid of losing your edge because everyone else can participate in the market as easily as you can, then you're just going to need to adapt.

We have an open functional economy. We do not have an efficient economy and there is a difference.

A hyper efficient marketplace like todays stock market with it's High-frequency trading is NOT good for the average joe trying to play the market place so saying that making this marketplace more efficient is good for the average joe is a joke.

zadies
04-13-2015, 10:54 AM
There's still room in a buy/sell system like EVE has for cards/items to maintain their individuality. The people who don't care about that will of course just go for the cheaper ones, but you should still be able to browse listings for individual records and traits on cards for sale, and I'm sure there will be filters to help pin point certain characteristics you might be interested in.
.

The issue with this entire idea is that CZE cares and wants people to care so has no reason to cater to an idea that is the antheis of what they have vision wise.

Zophie
04-13-2015, 11:09 AM
The issue with this entire idea is that CZE cares and wants people to care so has no reason to cater to an idea that is the antheis of what they have vision wise.

Just wondering how this idea is the "antheis of what they have vision wise"? With this system you'll still get a list of individual cards and will be able to see all their records/achievements that makes each card unique.

zadies
04-13-2015, 11:10 AM
Yes and you want to treat cards as being not unique bulk commodities the two ideas really are incompatible. You can make allowances in a system so they can be treated as both but the two systems are in direct opposition.

You can't have a mass listing of unique items.

Gwaer
04-13-2015, 11:13 AM
Ugh. Don't make me have to agree with zadies.

But ultimately what he is saying I think is that CZE wants all the cards to be unique, their function may be identical their look may be identical but their chain of ownership and accomplishments are not. Each one is like a person. Some people make more of themselves than others, some are pretty worthless in general, but each has their individual worth separate from being a bag of meat. He's cards are the same. If you create tools to treat them all like a homogenized set of same commodity items then you're working against the idea that they're special snowflakes.

If they implement tools to treat cards as commodities they're reinforcing their sameness so when they are eventually diversified it'll be counter to the ways people have been dealing with and selling cards and it will have a very difficult time catching on.

Zophie
04-13-2015, 11:16 AM
We have an open functional economy. We do not have an efficient economy and there is a difference.

A hyper efficient marketplace like todays stock market with it's High-frequency trading is NOT good for the average joe trying to play the market place so saying that making this marketplace more efficient is good for the average joe is a joke.

I think the major point here is that Cory himself has said he doesn't want the focus of players being on "playing the market". The AH is a tool to reach an end. We want people to be able to buy and sell their cards quickly and easily (note that does not mean "hyper efficiently") and get in and out and back into the game. We don't want people who are trying to sell their cards having to spend more time in there than what is reasonable because they're dealing with a slow/clunky UI. There are definitely QOL improvements that can be made to accommodate this without destroying the economy as you seem to make it sound like it will.

I think it's important to also understand that not all of us are looking for some kind of "sell all" button or unlimited timers on listings. We just want it to be easier, quicker, and more streamlined to take a single card and sell it for an appropriate price, especially when done by a casual user not interested in playing the market. Is it broken or impossible to work right as is right now? No, but right now that process takes several clicks and points of research and this could be streamlined a lot to reduce the complexity of this process so the focus can be put back on the game. This is all I'm asking for.

Zophie
04-13-2015, 11:19 AM
Ugh. Don't make me have to agree with zadies.

But ultimately what he is saying I think is that CZE wants all the cards to be unique, their function may be identical their look may be identical but their chain of ownership and accomplishments are not. Each one is like a person. Some people make more of themselves than others, some are pretty worthless in general, but each has their individual worth separate from being a bag of meat. He's cards are the same. If you create tools to treat them all like a homogenized set of same commodity items then you're working against the idea that they're special snowflakes.

If they implement tools to treat cards as commodities they're reinforcing their sameness so when they are eventually diversified it'll be counter to the ways people have been dealing with and selling cards and it will have a very difficult time catching on.

Just so I'm clear I do not think cards should be treated as commodities either. I'm interested in streamlining the UI with some QOL improvements. Also a Buy/Sell system in my mind would be the same as it is right now except with the added option of creating buy orders instead of just sell orders like we currently have.

zadies
04-13-2015, 11:31 AM
The api exports have made attempting to improve the accessibly of data in the game ui a back burner improvement issue at best. There are many other things that should be focused on because the data itself is readily available online or you can make your own tools if just looking up the current price of an item on the ah isn't "good enough" for an average user to be able to make a sale.
This is an issue of development resources and likely WHY the api was released in the first place because they have more pressing needs they need to focus on.


The only good idea in this thread is buy orders because it still allows a given seller to treat the item as a unique item.
This would require another 2 tabs added to the ah at minimum one for creating a buy order and one for searching currently up buy orders.

An eve type ui for buy and sell orders would not allow for the items to be treated as unique so you if your going to say well it doesn't require more tabs and such and can all be displayed on one page tell me how you can do that without commoditizing the cards.

Zophie
04-13-2015, 11:36 AM
An eve type ui for buy and sell orders would not allow for the items to be treated as unique so you if your going to say well it doesn't require more tabs and such and can all be displayed on one page tell me how you can do that without commoditizing the cards.

Are you referring to the basic market UI in EVE or the advanced one? I'm referring to the advanced version that has 3 panes. One on the left to show categories/search terms, and two main panes stacked on each other, sell orders on top and buy orders on bottom, all listed out individually per item.

Again: I am not asking to treat cards as commodities. Please do not mistake my posts as being in favor of the OP, my ideas and opinions are my own.

Edit: To clarify even further, the main aspect of the EVE Online market I'm promoting here is having the option to create buy orders in addition to the current sell orders. I realize there is still a sense that items are "commodities" in this market system, but I'm not asking for us to copy their market wholesale. I'm sorry if I haven't been very eloquent in explaining this clearly. I fully support having each card maintaining its individuality and being able to see them listed separately.

If I search for "Mirror Knight" I'd like to see search results list out all the mirror knights (just like today), and maybe have a preview pane on the right so that I can click through each result and see the stats/records of each one easily at a glance, and ideally the filters will also work with this to help me narrow down things I'm looking for, such as "virgin" cards or trophy holding cards. In addition there would be buy order results that would be presented below this, especially in the context of when I'm selling a card.

ossuary
04-13-2015, 11:46 AM
If they implement tools to treat cards as commodities they're reinforcing their sameness so when they are eventually diversified it'll be counter to the ways people have been dealing with and selling cards and it will have a very difficult time catching on.

The Auction House we have now already treats the cards like commodities. There is no capability whatsoever to differentiate cards in any fashion other than price. If they turned on double backs tomorrow, it would have zero impact on the Auction House - it would just make it impossible for people to use the Auction House to attempt to move their special snowflakes, since the higher price would just be instantly ignored.

The AH has to be heavily overhauled and redesigned to accommodate the future individuality of the cards no matter what - it just makes sense to make the existing features work better and more efficiently at the same time as they are adding in new filtering and criteria search capabilities since they're going to be under the hood anyway. If they add double backs but take away players' ability to treat the cards as the commodities they, let's be honest, ARE, what will actually happen is traffic on the AH will dry up overnight and we'll all be forced to spam trade chat to get anything done.

The only way the Auction House is going to work and double backs are going to have any chance of being something worthwhile longterm is for the Auction House to allow every single card listed to be treated as both a commodity and a unique individual at the same time (which is what the BAS I've been pushing for since day one, properly designed, would do).

Gwaer
04-13-2015, 11:49 AM
That's not actually true. Each card is unique by virtue of their inability to stack or sell multiples. It's a small difference but if they had double backs ready tomorrow it'd be a matter of adding additional search parameters and sort fields to integrate them into the current ah.

I will say there will have to be an AH revamp when double backs are a thing, but this AH more fully and readily supports it than most of the suggestions for improvements.

Xenavire
04-13-2015, 12:50 PM
Is it sad that I care more about seeing double backs than AH changes? I want to go and EA/foil my AA's, kthnx.

KingGabriel
04-13-2015, 12:57 PM
Is it sad that I care more about seeing double backs than AH changes? I want to go and EA/foil my AA's, kthnx.
I feel the same. :P

zadies
04-13-2015, 12:58 PM
Each card is being treated as an indvidual entity, and datadragon has said that each card is tracked in the system by a unique id which is WHY you have to go through the current process you do to list cards.

All the ah really needs is the ability to view the double back of a listed item and the ability to search the double back, which one would think would come with them being implemented.

Zurai
04-13-2015, 01:03 PM
Each card is being treated as an indvidual entity, and datadragon has said that each card is tracked in the system by a unique id which is WHY you have to go through the current process you do to list cards.

B does not follow A by necessity. Each card can still have an individual unique ID and still be bulk listed. Every single item in WoW has a unique item ID that GMs can track if needed; you can still bulk list items if you want.

Rehab
04-13-2015, 03:01 PM
I think the core selling system should ignore the card uniqueness feature(if it hinders buy/selling in anyway) because when you step back and look at it, the majority of buyers and sellers just want the card value, whether its getting rid of an extra or completing a play set, most people will not care about the card history. It would be silly to build the whole system around a feature that the vast majority of players may not even care about. While it is very cool to think that one day my cards may be worth more simply because i won a major tournament with them, it would be a huge mistake to sacrifice even the smallest amount of functionality or ease of use to highlight this vanity feature.

Yoss
04-13-2015, 04:51 PM
The issue is that you all seem to want to treat things as bulk sales and the hex team has no desire at all to do that because it eliminates making the cards unique with he double backs.
The link in my sig goes through how to handle double backs in great detail. In short: a bid/ask system (BAS) can handle it just as well as an auction system, and as ossuary said, the current AH is already completely incapable of handling double backs so it will require update no matter what. In short, double-backs are a red herring to this discussion.

Yoss
04-13-2015, 04:52 PM
Fair enough. I think having buy orders would solve most of your problems. Buying side you just list once what you want and leave it, and on the sell side you can browse items and instantly sell into the demand as you see fit. My only problem is the supply stacking and I think even other games with more developed AHs have something in place to avoid that whether it be listing fee or something else.
I'll take that offer! It gets us into the Bid/Ask realm of things and gives me a quick sale (at loss of profit) to the liquidity providers out there.

I'm actually fine not having infinite listing timers, but I would like it to go out to 7 days. Remember all those threads with people shouting "NO DAILIES!"? Well, the AH right now is pretty much a "daily quest" due to constantly having to refresh listings.

Gwaer
04-13-2015, 06:00 PM
I seem to remember never being satisfied with your bid ask suggestions, even when you were declaring that they solved all the problems in the world, but I'm not going to go back and reread that nonsense now to make sure, since the last time i had tried you had re-edited all your posts to the point of making every other point anyone else made unintelligible. Those threads are worthless for a coherent understanding of peoples concerns now.

zadies
04-13-2015, 06:01 PM
The link in my sig goes through how to handle double backs in great detail. In short: a bid/ask system (BAS) can handle it just as well as an auction system, and as ossuary said, the current AH is already completely incapable of handling double backs so it will require update no matter what. In short, double-backs are a red herring to this discussion.

No the ah as implimented would work fine with double backs right click card see double back.... done.
There is already a filter for finished double backs from the extended art.
Also how do you know the search function doesn't already have the built in key words for the achivements.

Yoss
04-13-2015, 06:03 PM
I seem to remember never being satisfied with your bid ask suggestions, even when you were declaring that they solved all the problems in the world, but I'm not going to go back and reread that nonsense now to make sure, since the last time i had tried you had re-edited all your posts to the point of making every other point anyone else made unintelligible. Those threads are worthless for a coherent understanding of peoples concerns now.

Excellent ad hominem, sir. "I can't remember what you said, but I'm sure it was bad. Nonsense, really. No one should ever bother listening to you. Because, well, I said so. Don't ask me to explain."

Yoss
04-13-2015, 06:05 PM
No the ah as implimented would work fine with double backs right click card see double back.... done.
There is already a filter for finished double backs from the extended art.
Also how do you know the search function doesn't already have the built in key words for the achivements.

Both those suggestions would work just as well on a Bid/Ask interface.

EDIT, for reference:

HexBAS UI

HexBAS would be just as easy to use as a Traditional Auction House (TAH). Things that TAH Would not have are in bold. (TAH might also have some other controls that HexBAS does not need, since HexBAS does not have auction-style bidding. For example, there's no Starting Price to worry about, only a "Buy It Now" price. Complexity wise, this added field cancels out the added Sell Now button on the HexBAS seller screen.)

Two screens: Buying and Selling
(Eventually there might be an Analytics screen, but that would be much later after Hex is the world's most profitable TCG.)

SELLING
Shows your collection, with tabs for PVP, PVE, Equipment, and Other. On each tab, shows a list of all your stuff with columns for Name, Rarity, Quantity, Market Price. Default would be sorted descenting by Quantity so that you know what items you have excess of. Clicking a column header would sort by that attribute. Default sort would be Alphabetical for Name, Leg/Rare/Unc/Com order for Rarity, Descending for Quantity, and Descending for Price. A second click on the same column will reverse the sort order. Mouse-over a row should work like in the Deck Builder, showing relevant details about the item like: rules text/stats and double-back stats.

Additional columns to the right of each item would have the Seller Controls: button for "Sell Now" with Price listed (The Sell Now price would be the highest Bid Limit Order for which your item qualifies. Sell Now would also be accomplished by double-click anywhere in the sortable columns. The button and price would be colored to show grouping.), button for "Wait for My Price" with input fields for Price and Quantity next to it (The button and entry fields would be colored to show grouping. The price could default to match the lowest existing Ask and Quantity could default to your excess.), and a View Market button to give a pop-up showing all the outstanding Limit Orders for that item.


BUYING
Across the top would be the same four tabs: PVP, PVE, Equipment, and Other. Default view on each tab, if you haven't viewed it in a while (say 30 minutes maybe), shows the top 20 most expensive items for sale (Ask Limit Orders), giving highlight advertising to what might otherwise be difficult to sell. Otherwise, the default will be whatever you were last viewing. Each tab would have at the top a Search input field with double-back feature choices to the right: AA (yes/no/either), Min XP% (which covers Foils by entering 100%), and an Achievements button for a pop-up to select must-have achievements. Defaults for double-back would be: AA-either, XP-0, and no achievements required. As you type in the Search field, it would suggest possible matches that you can click on.

After you search, the Book for that item is displayed in ascending order of Price, with Bids suppressed by default (since a casual Buyer usually won't care what other Buyers are bidding) but with a check box to toggle them on or off (to the right of the Achievements filter button). The diplayed data would be: Name, Price, AA, XP%, a field for up to three Achievement images, and a "more" link in case there are more than three achievements. Double-click on a listing will buy it. Mouse-over a row should work like in the Deck Builder, showing relevant details about the item like rules text/stats and double-back stats.

The second row below the Search function would have somthing like "Double click an item to buy it. If you don't like these listings, then click here to Make an Offer." If you "click here", it reveals entry fields for Quantity, Price, the double-back stuff (same as on the Search line) and a button for Make Offer. (This is how you'd enter a Bid Limit Order.)

Gwaer
04-13-2015, 06:15 PM
It's not an ad hominem. It's literally what happened, I tried to go back and re-read the thread, all of your posts had been edited to hell, and made the entire thread worthless. Currently, it's just a soapbox to keep one of your dead horses in.

NOBLEStarshield
04-13-2015, 07:12 PM
The thread has run its course. Closing.