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nicosharp
04-12-2015, 04:07 AM
I realize now the competitive impact of a card like storm cloud.

During R&D for Hex, set 1 and set 2 and set 3, were the implications for both resource play and creature sacrifice, that allow for seamless unanswered play, not originally factored in?

Why can a card that provides such a competitive advantage not be responded to?
Was it intended to never let an opposing player respond to a card after it enters play, before the card owner can play a shard?

It's quite frustrating to play competitively, have an answer in hand, but unable to do anything as the storm cloud player drops a cloud on turn 3, playing a crackling vortex, and sacrifices the storm cloud.

In the future I hope a lot more time and thought is put into the power-level of cards with sacrificial powers and cards powered through resources since the game design allows no window to respond before the deal is done.

I won't argue for Priority changes for players, but I am concerned about future cards like storm cloud.

Seraph_Hex
04-12-2015, 04:42 AM
It seems to be intended, since they decided that triggered abilities cannot use the chain.

ossuary
04-12-2015, 04:52 AM
For the record, sacrificing something and playing a land (resource) can't be responded to in that OTHER game, either. And you can still stop the storm cloud, you just have to interrupt it instead of trying to kill it. Frost Wizard, as with all things sacrifice related, also prevents the storm cloud from creating his little stormling buddies. :)

nicosharp
04-12-2015, 05:03 AM
Late night musings. In the wild cup, 5 out of 7 matches for me in the hot C) slot were against mono-sapphire. Having burn was great, but that little bugger cloud followed by vortex was a huge nuisance.

For the record Oss - As far as I know, in that other game, resources being played do not effect the card that was played. If a card was played in that other game, if a resource being played effected it, you could still respond to the card played immediately after it enters play. (of course, its been a while and I'm rusty on this knowledge)

Yes, there are always options to deal with cards in the game. There is more competitive implication to certain cards where they are at on a power curve than others. Playing Diamond, or playing the mirror a turn ahead with a countermagic, should not be the only 2 viable counters to a card in order to prevent it from going off.

Seraph_Hex
04-12-2015, 05:11 AM
sacrificing something

Sacrificing cannot be responded to, since it is not an action you can take in the game. It often is part of an ability or spell, in which case you can respond to it or it is part of a cost and therefore cannot be responded to.


playing a land (resource) can't be responded to in that OTHER game

That is correct. On the other hand you could respond to the landfall trigger and kill the creature while the triggered ability is still on the stack. Hex devs decided against that.


And you can still stop the storm cloud, you just have to interrupt it instead of trying to kill it.

Problem here is that we do not have a lot of Stifle effects in this game yet. Zero to be precise.


Frost Wizard, as with all things sacrifice related, also prevents the storm cloud from creating his little stormling buddies. :)

I do not see how Frost Wizard would prevent the ability on the chain from resolving and creating new stormlings. Only thing that happens is that Strom Cloud is now voided, which has no impact on the game so far.

ossuary
04-12-2015, 07:13 AM
Problem here is that we do not have a lot of Stifle effects in this game yet. Zero to be precise.

And Magic didn't have stifle for the longest time either. Suddenly when they did, Dreadnaught became amazing. Things change over time and older cards get more playable. You can't expect a game that is only TWO sets in to have answers for everything, there will always be some plays that are more powerful now, and they will become less so over time. A lot of the troops we have now would be a lot less effective if Hex just had a Remove Soul spell like Magic did only a couple of sets in (Legends, if I remember correctly).


I do not see how Frost Wizard would prevent the ability on the chain from resolving and creating new stormlings. Only thing that happens is that Strom Cloud is now voided, which has no impact on the game so far.

You're right, sorry, I was thinking of something else. Frost Wizard stops effects that look at whether or not a troop was sacrificed (like Hop'Hiro), but doesn't stop things from triggering with a sacrifice as part of the cost. My bad. :)

Seraph_Hex
04-12-2015, 07:42 AM
You can't expect a game that is only TWO sets in to have answers for everything

I am not, you are the one who said:


And you can still stop the storm cloud, you just have to interrupt it instead of trying to kill it.

I am just pointing out, that your proposed method of handling Storm Cloud currently does not work.

Edit: Oh you meant to interrupt the troop not its effect, never mind then.

SriSyadasti
04-12-2015, 07:55 AM
Would Reversion have the same effect in this case? Or would it also be useless as the storm counter removals happens as part of the cost, before the opportunity to interrupt?

Assassine
04-12-2015, 07:57 AM
You cant even target the cloud with reversion before its sacrificed. Thats exactly the issue here.

Diesbudt
04-12-2015, 08:24 AM
The issue isn't the storm cloud though. By Itself it is not that great of a card. However withe the help of CMK it becomes a power plant of draw power.

Draw power is a huge thing in most TCGs and a reason why in the wild cup I side boarded a few Drowned Shrines of Ulthar, to prevent that combo from gaining steam should I see it.

Storm cloud is not the only card that gives strong draw power because of CMK, there are plenty of combos and decks that use its strength, which is the core issue. Not Storm Cloud.

What does this mean? Well 1 of 2 things needs to happen to balance its combo for PvP

1. (Wont happen) Change the inspire to JUST kill effects and not sacrifice effects.
2. Time to unleash the limit / ban list for PvP cards. TCG competitive nature requires it, and I believe a limit 2 per deck on CMK would be quite helpful in situations like this. Still be available but not as reliable as 4 in a deck can be.

nicosharp
04-12-2015, 08:27 AM
The issue isn't the storm cloud though. By Itself it is not that great of a card. However withe the help of CMK it becomes a power plant of draw power.

Draw power is a huge thing in most TCGs and a reason why in the wild cup I side boarded a few Drowned Shrines of Ulthar, to prevent that combo from gaining steam should I see it.

Storm cloud is not the only card that gives strong draw power because of CMK, there are plenty of combos and decks that use its strength, which is the core issue. Not Storm Cloud.

What does this mean? Well 1 of 2 things needs to happen to balance its combo for PvP

1. (Wont happen) Change the inspire to JUST kill effects and not sacrifice effects.
2. Time to unleash the limit / ban list for PvP cards. TCG competitive nature requires it, and I believe a limit 2 per deck on CMK would be quite helpful in situations like this. Still be available but not as reliable as 4 in a deck can be.
You may argue that CMK is the threat, but in high level competitive play, he is not the crux of mono-blue. He is actually not that big of a deal. It's really just the storm cloud as an individual card. Of course you pair it with Eldritch Dreamers and a few others and you got an amazing deck, but this is specifically about storm cloud. Not inspire effects.

Diesbudt
04-12-2015, 08:35 AM
You may argue that CMK is the threat, but in high level competitive play, he is not the crux of mono-blue. He is actually not that big of a deal. It's really just the storm cloud as an individual card. Of course you pair it with Eldritch Dreamers and a few others and you got an amazing deck, but this is specifically about storm cloud. Not inspire effects.

May just be me, but I dont have issues against a storm cloud or see any real threat if it is just a storm cloud. Especially if they pop it right away to protect it from removal. Because even if they play 1, play a crackling vortex then sacrifice it they only get 2 1/1/ flyers with an added sacrifice ability.

Outside the extra ability its the same as if your opponent played 2 windbourne Acolytes on that turn. 2 cost for 2 1/1/ flyers. But the effects come from storm cloud being a rare card.

Only reason I see it as powerful IS the CMK combo, especially since drawpower is mandatory for good mono sapphire decks as they have to dig for their gralks and counters and have both threats and counters and tempo cards going through their hand normal 1 card a turn drawing won't normally cut it in a competitive game.

israel.kendall
04-12-2015, 08:48 AM
Going with the theme, Eye of Zakiir can not be responded to either and I'm not sure if its intended. When Eye is played the other person has to respond before Eye has a target. This means if you have Hopeheart in play and your opponent plays Eye, you have only the option of saccing your unicorn. Then since all your guys are invincible you just get hit in the face with Eye.

Edit: and I'm not sure what that other game has to do with anything as the cards do not exist in a bubble but in conjunction with other cards.

Thrawn
04-12-2015, 08:52 AM
Islands are OP and should be restricted.

Malakili
04-12-2015, 08:57 AM
I look forward to seeing a thread like this for every card that overperforms in competitive Hex for the rest of forever.

nicosharp
04-12-2015, 09:12 AM
I look forward to seeing a thread like this for every card that overperforms in competitive Hex for the rest of forever.
It will likely happen. My next thread will be about minotaur mercenary. Keep your eyes out for it.

I just want to mention that it is obvious that HEX developers are aware of the power of sacrificial cards. I had a very old thread in Alpha about Demented Demolisher who was of the same ilk, and was actually very competitively viable before he was nerfed. The old demolisher I believe was a 3/3 for 5, and you could sacrifice him for free to remove all shards from your deck. Now he is slightly less expensive to play, but the catch is, he is only a 2/2 and needs to pay 3 to sacrifice himself.

Obviously a much different powerlevel there, but still comparisons can be made. Yes, Storm Cloud is competitively viable, for his synergy with cards like CMK like mentioned above. The value of a shard+card combo that results in 2 1/1 fliers with random abilities is not game-breaking in anyway, but competitively, its a huge advantage in many number of decks, even as an unmodified card without inspire effects. Players can also be greedy and stack counters on a cloud to save for a larger net gain sacrifice.

The argument being made is- Cards with sacrifice triggers, effective immediately after they come into play, should take into consideration both cost, and other modifiers within the games set rules to appropriately balance against their effects. This includes playing resources. There are many aspects of storm cloud that try to limit this effect, by making the sacrifice a basic action. IMO, storm clouds sacrifice power should be an exhaust to trigger power, but that's just to circumvent the inability to respond to resources being played, or a sacrifice being activated.

Added the old thread since you like reading about all cards:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=28702&highlight=demented+demolisher

ossuary
04-12-2015, 09:54 AM
Going with the theme, Eye of Zakiir can not be responded to either and I'm not sure if its intended. When Eye is played the other person has to respond before Eye has a target. This means if you have Hopeheart in play and your opponent plays Eye, you have only the option of saccing your unicorn. Then since all your guys are invincible you just get hit in the face with Eye.

Edit: and I'm not sure what that other game has to do with anything as the cards do not exist in a bubble but in conjunction with other cards.

I believe you are going on old information here. Eye of Zakiir was fixed quite a long time ago so that you have to choose the target first and it shows the intended target on the chain, so you can respond to it by protecting the targeted troop. It was a bug that it was not showing the target.

Diesbudt
04-12-2015, 09:58 AM
It will likely happen. My next thread will be about minotaur mercenary. Keep your eyes out for it.



What about Baby Yeti?

nicosharp
04-12-2015, 10:02 AM
What about Baby Yeti?

I think King Gabby has that card covered.

Tinfoil
04-12-2015, 12:06 PM
By itself, I think Storm Cloud is an extremely well designed card. But it do fall into the Sapphire shard with all its other card generation, card draw, and control. I think mono-blood disrupt is the bane of mono-sapphire, but it is not played so much for other reasons. The card generation/draw of sapphire (and blood) makes them more stable than combinations without these shards that are more reliant on hitting the curve. I don't think there is problem with Storm Cloud, it is "just" a good card in a strong shard. Demented Demolisher is now unplayable and that is a shame, same with a lot of incantations and in some ways this is worse than having strong cards.

That sacrifice in general is potentially powerful and should be carefully designed around I agree with.

Axle
04-12-2015, 12:29 PM
Yeah Incantation of Fear got screwed. It was too strong as a 2 cost card sure, but I feel like the troop it transforms into shouldn't have been 4 cost too. Maybe 3? When drawing additional copies paying 4 for a 6/4 after all that work is pretty lame. And Incantation of Savagery as a 6/3 just gets chumped easily. I admit that Shin'hare Incantation deck in alpha that dropped it turn 3 was really silly though.

In terms of sacrifice, I am always annoyed when Punisher gets sacrificed for something like Bunoshi and I just lose a card in my hand with no chance at responding. As stronger sacrifice effects release, it will only get more annoying yes. It certainly would be nice if I had a response window then, even if I didn't know the result of the coin flip ability. But it is how it is. Just gotta play the game with that in mind and react beforehand in that case.

BlackRoger
04-12-2015, 01:46 PM
I think mono-blood disrupt is the bane of mono-sapphire, but it is not played so much for other reasons.

I actually disagree.
From me and my team's testing before and during the wild cup, monoblood is not favored in that matchup.
Their removal is to costly at 3+, and they are very dependant on getting their inquisitions in opening hand.
They can't remove CMK in time and they can't deal with reese surfacing with countermagic backup.

If anything, aggro decks are the best answer to monosaph, which is why I played dwarves aggro, and whenever I got the heavy saph matchups I had easy wins, since those decks have neither heat wave nor extinctions usually.

As for Storm Cloud, They are deffinetally not the important part of the combo, if you ban the cloud people will just go back to the old mirror knight + Falconer, which isn't as good but still very effective.

Anyways, my teammate ShadowM went 6-0 in that tourney with a mono saph deck that ran no Storm Clouds and only 2 Cmks, So I don't think CMKs or Clouds are the sole reason Mono Saph is so good right now, the shard is just really strong as a whole.

asdf2000
04-12-2015, 04:08 PM
I agree with nico's original post, I doubt it was properly thought out that you would not be able to respond to storm cloud's basic ability. It destroys interactivity and inevitably leads to imbalances. The more cards that they design like this the more likely they will have to end up banning something due to it being overpowered. They should lean towards having the sacrifice being part of the ability result, not ability cost.

Just my opinion. Maybe others don't agree that the lack of interactivity can hurt the game.

Diesbudt
04-12-2015, 04:16 PM
I agree with nico's original post, I doubt it was properly thought out that you would not be able to respond to storm cloud's basic ability. It destroys interactivity and inevitably leads to imbalances. The more cards that they design like this the more likely they will have to end up banning something due to it being overpowered. They should lean towards having the sacrifice being part of the ability result, not ability cost.

But even if you stop it, result still happens as it is on the chain. So really putting it on the chain solves nothing, because the result has been paid for (regardless if actually paid for) so the result will go through unless the target of the ability is now illegal.

So maybe you can respond to sacrifice but what are you going to do? It is already going to die and result is already on the chain. Even using a revert won't matter for something like the cloud in the quick sacrifice scenario because if they chose to sac it right after playing a shard, and you counter it with revert... you are reverting a 0 charge cloud as the charge hasn't even applied yet and is on the chain.

I believe it is reasons like that, that made sacrifice not able to respond to. And since you cannot counter triggered abilities with a counter spell, giving a stop after sacrifice doesn't buy you anything in 95% of the cases.

asdf2000
04-12-2015, 04:30 PM
oh yeah I see what you are saying

It would have to be something like Basic -- > sacrifice this creature. if you successfully sacrifice this creature, do blah blah.

PureVapes
04-12-2015, 04:37 PM
The design is great and they won't change it. Maybe they'll print Remove Soul or Ostracize next set to satiate the whining. Not sure why this needs a thread. Was the entire top 8 of the last tournament running 4x Storm Cloud or something?

nicosharp
04-12-2015, 04:41 PM
Not sure there is any whining going on at all that is in need of satiation. It's easy to mistake honest feedback and concern for a rant.

asdf2000
04-12-2015, 04:43 PM
It's not whining, at least I am not whining. Claiming people can't discuss card design because it is whining is annoying and nonconstructive.

nicosharp
04-12-2015, 05:18 PM
It's not whining, at least I am not whining. Claiming people can't discuss card design because it is whining is annoying and nonconstructive.
Many forum posters and in-game chat jockeys like to make inflammatory statements to bait quotes or dialogue between them. It's important to them to feel like they are being seen.

PureVapes
04-12-2015, 05:31 PM
I see a lot of questions and frustrations along with a lack of realistic solutions (except ossuary's reply). Meanwhile, I suggested they could release a 1 cost 'discard a troop' for blood or a 2 cost 'counter a troop for sapphire'. How is my post less constructive than others?

Some cards are potentially non-interactive and those cards are balanced with that in mind. Those cards should exist, just as there are levels of speed (actions versus quick action, BASIC versus normal). Examples include resources, 0-cost cards like Forge of Cadoc (could change due to future 0-cost quick actions), any card that says "Can't be countered," or in another game have the keyword 'Split Second'. Storm Cloud isn't even strictly non-interactive since without Crackling Vortex and Mirror Knight, it's not fantastic to use it immediately on turn 3. You could just play a Monsuun or something instead.

I'll stop posting in this thread though, and you guys can go on with your discussion instead of not so subtly insulting me. However, I was genuinely curious if Storm Cloud has taken over the competitive scene.

nicosharp
04-12-2015, 05:47 PM
I see a lot of questions and frustrations along with a lack of realistic solutions (except ossuary's reply). Meanwhile, I suggested they could release a 1 cost 'discard a troop' for blood or a 2 cost 'counter a troop for sapphire'. How is my post less constructive than others?

Some cards are potentially non-interactive and those cards are balanced with that in mind. Those cards should exist, just as there are levels of speed (actions versus quick action, BASIC versus normal). Examples include resources, 0-cost cards like Forge of Cadoc (could change due to future 0-cost quick actions), any card that says "Can't be countered," or in another game have the keyword 'Split Second'. Storm Cloud isn't even strictly non-interactive since without Crackling Vortex and Mirror Knight, it's not fantastic to use it immediately on turn 3. You could just play a Monsuun or something instead.

I'll stop posting in this thread though, and you guys can go on with your discussion instead of not so subtly insulting me. However, I was genuinely curious if Storm Cloud has taken over the competitive scene.
That was a lot more constructive.
I think there is a misconception that a change was being asked for.
I agree with you about the non-interactive cards, and specifically storm clouds need for crackling vortex to be effective.
The initial observation is the 2 interactions after storm cloud resolves that can not be responded to, and to be wary of creating cards with similar non-interactive mechanics without heavily considering the competitive implications.

Xenavire
04-12-2015, 06:38 PM
I don't see this as being too much of a problem, really. Storm Cloud + Vortex is essentially a 2 card combo (which is important because vortex is a non-standard resource.) CMK added into the mix makes it a 3 card combo to draw 3-5 cards (depending on which stormlings you get).

If it isn't winning the game at a 3 card combo, then I say it is reasonable. Sure, it being hard to stop is a pain, but just look at Replicators Gambit - in set 1 it had a hard to deal with 2 card wincon. The reason why this seems so relevant has already been mentioned - mono saph is very strong right now. Give us set 3, and a new deck is likely to crop up and storm cloud will be a lot less attractive (although I can't ever see it being 'bad'), and these complaints will largely be forgotten.

As for the non-interactive part? If your opponent is playing precisely like that (giving you no opportunity to respond) then chances are they have scouted you in G1, or are going to lose without a way to mitigate your aggro. I doubt it is wise to instantly pop your storm cloud in most situations.

KingGabriel
04-12-2015, 06:49 PM
I think King Gabby has that card covered.
I'm so happy I poked them into putting the AA in, that card art is adorable.

WWKnight
04-12-2015, 09:04 PM
Its not Storm cloud thats powerful. Its the fact that it adds counters without you having a chance to respond.

The request is completely reasonable. He isnt saying its too strong or needs to be nerfed. He simply asked that in the future, that these designs are looked at carefully to not create such powerful interactions that cannot be interrupted. And I 100% stand by that request.

I in no way feel Storm Cloud is overpowered. I do dislike that there are many things that dont give me the ability to respond to them.

Malakili
04-13-2015, 03:52 AM
I do dislike that there are many things that dont give me the ability to respond to them.

A bunch of us protested pretty strongly when the made the decision to not put every trigger on the stack. But this is the game we have now.

ossuary
04-13-2015, 04:25 AM
I don't understand why you all think they DIDN'T take that function into account. That's what I don't get. You're all just taking it as given that it must have been some kind of oversight.

Malakili
04-13-2015, 06:48 AM
I actually don't think Storm Cloud is a problem and I think it's a huge waste of time to make threads complaining about specific cards.

Even more broadly speaking, triggers like this going not going on the stack is an answered question and there is no point to discussing it anymore.

If people spent half as much time working on their play as they do discussing pointless things like this on the forum they'd be a lot better at hex.

nicosharp
04-13-2015, 07:13 AM
I actually don't think Storm Cloud is a problem and I think it's a huge waste of time to make threads complaining about specific cards.
The card is being used as a specific example of a mechanic in the game that should be carefully considered. Not that the card itself is a problem.


Even more broadly speaking, triggers like this going not going on the stack is an answered question and there is no point to discussing it anymore.
Reminding R&D, that cards that allow multiple triggers without response are not great for competitive play, and should be balanced appropriately, is not harmful.


If people spent half as much time working on their play as they do discussing pointless things like this on the forum they'd be a lot better at hex.
If people find things pointless, you would have a point. If people that make posts were bad at the game, you would have a point. I'd flip this question to, if people are at a low level of play, why are they commenting on a thread they have no relevant input on?

israel.kendall
05-08-2015, 11:39 AM
http://i.imgur.com/rVRyrid.jpg

Turtlewing
05-08-2015, 12:37 PM
http://i.imgur.com/rVRyrid.jpg

beautiful