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Philip070380
04-15-2015, 02:38 PM
i love this game but i have to admit as an European player that it's really hard to find a "full" constructed queue right now. Anyway constructed queue is at least 3-4 hours, it s too long for a player with a family. I said it before but is this game is only for No life player ??
Proving ground is useless too, nothing to do, you want to test some deck, but you play a lot with beginner opponent so .... what to do ? No ladder to see some kind of progression.. This is very frustrating.

Set 3 will arrive, i m ok with that but with no competitive environment, i'm not sure if this game will rise in popularity.
So please, do something for us, Arena is cool, but what i like (and i'm sure, i'm not the only one), is to play against real opponent.

Do something please CZE because this game is awesome.

thx and discuss

PS : sorry for the english, but it's not my native language !

Xenavire
04-15-2015, 02:46 PM
Set 3 will help, as will more news about the ranked feature they will use for the big tournament. As with everything else though, patience is required.

The situation really can't get worse, so for now just keep advertising it when you think you have time, especially in the weekends.

plaguedealer
04-15-2015, 02:49 PM
Constructed asynch might help alleviate your issue. I really am not sure what priority a ranked ladder system is getting.

Additional pvp perks is important, but they need to really work on more pve stuff after set 3. I am going to get flamed but hearthstone on your phone is a big deal in the card game market. Hex really needs to focus on the casual crowd in my opinion.

nicosharp
04-15-2015, 02:50 PM
There is really no incentive now for constructed queues to fire. I'm even saying that with many free constructed queue tickets on my account.

There are many many reasons for this:
1) You have to pay more platinum for the queue, than any other queue regarding platinum entry fee.
2) There is no guarantee you get anything as a prize, not even free cards you open, because you already are playing with cards you own.
3) You first need to be confident in your ability to win, since this mode is the highest skill-based competitive mode.
4) You need to put money down up front significantly to build a deck you are confident in that can win against other competitive decks in the meta.
5) The prizes are packs, which you probably don't need many of now, except for flat resale value, as you already have a tier 1 constructed deck (or should)
6) There is no ranking system yet, or exclusive prizes for doing well in these queues.

I think you combine most of the points above, and you have many valid reasons for why these queues don't fire. As HEX gears up for the $100,000 tournament, you will see these queues get a lot more love and attention.. Both from a Developer standpoint to make them better, and player interest standpoint.

"No Life Player" - I think you mean the 3+ hour queues.. They are working on Asynchronous mode (like Hearthstone Arena) but we don't know when it will be available. I can say with family, it is hard to have 3-4hours to sit and play, but at least its a turn-based game with 5 minute timers, so you can take breaks to do pretty much anything and still finish a round. But, you might need to wait till Asynch is around so you can play competitively in 30minute chunks.

Tazelbain
04-15-2015, 02:51 PM
Sorry, I can't hear over all the grinding.

chromus
04-15-2015, 02:52 PM
The only competitive constructed that takes places outside those non-firing 8-man queues are the end-of-month VIP Tournaments (every other month) and community organized tournaments. I agree this is not nearly enough.

There is a $100,000 prize tournament in the works (supposed to take place towards the end of this year) and qualifier points/tournaments structure that goes along with it. Hopefully, this will be enough to motivate people to bother with PvP constructed while not having a ladder/ranked system (which is sorely lacking).

I've stated before: the PvP ladder/ranked along with the Async Sealed are the most important non-content features that have to be highest on Hex Ent.'s priority list. Hope that it is the case. I don't think they have confirmed what they prioritize beyond Set 3 being the next meaty content we should expect.

Gwaer
04-15-2015, 02:59 PM
I don't think Hex has anything for the casual crowd until it has a full PVE campaign. Which is a ways off no matter how they slice it. So they should get whatever they can out to keep the people here interested. Eventually the casual floodgates can open, but anything less than a full campaign will leave a lot of casuals with very little to do.

Yoss
04-15-2015, 03:11 PM
Constructed asynch might help alleviate your issue.

I hope we get it Soon™.

Tazelbain
04-15-2015, 03:12 PM
I think it highlights that Hex's road map to Competitive (or not) PVP play is none existent.

Gwaer
04-15-2015, 03:19 PM
An announced 100,000 prize pool constructed tournament is indicative of a non-existent competitive pvp road map? I think not. Clearly there is one. It's taking longer than we would like perhaps, but if it were being shotgunned out the door we'd have everyone complaining of no non-competitive (PVE) progress, and complaining about the progress of PVP... Wait, we have that, too.

Sooo some faction feel there's too much attention to pvp, another faction feels there is no attention for pvp whatsoever... Yet more people feel there should never be any pve at all, and some people feel there should be nothing added to pvp whatsoever until we get a complete pve campaign. Instead they're working on pieces to both sides, and will release them as they can. It's the best way to handle it so that everyone is well served in as timely a manner as possible.

nicosharp
04-15-2015, 03:27 PM
Sooo some faction feel there's too much attention to pvp, another faction feels there is no attention for pvp whatsoever... Yet more people feel there should never be any pve at all, and some people feel there should be nothing added to pvp whatsoever until we get a complete pve campaign. Instead they're working on pieces to both sides, and will release them as they can. It's the best way to handle it so that everyone is well served in as timely a manner as possible.
That's a lot of feels.
PvP is not non-existent, but it certainly does not have the infrastructure it needs to support it currently built into the game. I hope we see changes soon to lay-down in-game tools and a ladder as a road-map for the $100,000 tournament hype.

Rehab
04-15-2015, 03:34 PM
Ive seen people mention asynchronous constructed before... its my understanding that they are working on limited asynch, ive never seen a hex employee confirm a constructed variation.

plaguedealer
04-15-2015, 03:42 PM
I haven't heard any talk about asynch constructed, but it seems like a no brainer.

I am not sure asynch and ranked is the smoking gun to all the pvp players problems however. I am definitely in the camp of priority between pvp and pve. I remember someone posting a new thread quoting me about the need for f2p to have some method of playing drafts. Well the method is definitely there and it has not broken the economy whatsoever. Further ah improvements and various methods to play competitive pvp will only help the situation.

magic_gazz
04-15-2015, 04:07 PM
I don't know why people don't want to play constructed, it has the best payout.

Nico, there is always need for more plat, so having all the cards is not a reason to NOT play constructed.

Barkam
04-15-2015, 04:21 PM
But you dont get plat. You need to do more work to get plat.

magic_gazz
04-15-2015, 04:28 PM
But you dont get plat. You need to do more work to get plat.

The two minutes it takes to list the boosters on the AH?

Not hard.

Fyren
04-15-2015, 04:31 PM
I don't know why people don't want to play constructed,

Reasons 1-4 on Nico's list apply to me right there.

The barriers to Constructed entry are extremely high, just as in That Other TCG. I have a collection that HexTCG browser values at just under 30K plat. I don't feel like I have near the right cards for a proper Constructed format deck, having seen the lists for some of the major and minor tournaments.

I'll say that again: $300 worth of (admittedly semi-random) cards cannot generate what I understand to be a competitive constructed decklist. EDIT: And that number counts Alternate Art cards as normal cards, because the HexTCG sync program can't recognize AA's yet.

For example, I only have one Extinction and one Monsuun, and every nearly competitive Blood deck seems to have 3-4 of the former and 2-3 of the latter.

It's part of why I'm taking interest in these pauper/rock leagues showing up; I'd like to try proper constructed, but I know I'll get my buttocks sliced off, sauteed in white wine sauce, and served to me on a sterling silver platter with a dusting of extra virgin olive oil, a light garnish and a side of pudding, by people with 10 legendaries and more rares than shards; I will likely walk away with nothing else to show for it, unlike a draft.

TOOT
04-15-2015, 04:38 PM
Set 3 will help, as will more news about the ranked feature they will use for the big tournament. As with everything else though, patience is required.

The situation really can't get worse, so for now just keep advertising it when you think you have time, especially in the weekends.

Set 3 will not help. We've gone over this in multiple threads. I know you are not a fan of a ladder, but as myself, bootlace, and others have been saying over and over, is that casual players have no plausible way to play any type of meaningful constructed games unless you have 4hrs or more to set aside. Asynch constructed tourneys, ladders, or any kind of ranking system is the solution, not set 3. More cards or deck archetypes does not change any of the above.

Jonesy
04-15-2015, 04:42 PM
Pretty sure if you just type in chat 'hey anybody want to test competitive constructed decks' you'd get a game, kinda like how you'd get a competitive game in real life, except with a whole lot more people around to ask and a way to ask them all at once.

hacky
04-15-2015, 04:46 PM
Reasons 1-4 on Nico's list apply to me right there.

The barriers to Constructed entry are extremely high, just as in That Other TCG. I have a collection that HexTCG browser values at just under 30K plat. I don't feel like I have near the right cards for a proper Constructed format deck, having seen the lists for some of the major and minor tournaments.

I'll say that again: $300 worth of (admittedly semi-random) cards cannot generate what I understand to be a competitive constructed decklist. EDIT: And that number counts Alternate Art cards as normal cards, because the HexTCG sync program can't recognize AA's yet.

For example, I only have one Extinction and one Monsuun, and every nearly competitive Blood deck seems to have 3-4 of the former and 2-3 of the latter.


If you know your collection is worth around 30,000 platinum, what's stopping you from selling extra cards from your collection into the 5000 platinum to finish your playset of Extinction (1500p total) and your set of three Monsuun? (3500p total)

Besides time commitment, the biggest barrier to Constructed is the blocks in our own heads. That "this deck is not good enough" feeling. In my physical TCG play, I and many others had no problems spending $5 entry for a weekend Constructed tournament with booster pack prizes. We didn't need the best of the best decks to play and have fun there, is this so different in Hex?

Constructed queues are not the "ultra competitive" setting where the best tier 1 decks are completely necessary. But they feel like they are, likely as the result of being online and available at all hours.

Fyren
04-15-2015, 05:01 PM
If you know your collection is worth around 30,000 platinum, what's stopping you from selling extra cards from your collection into the 5000 platinum to finish your playset of Extinction (1500p total) and your set of three Monsuun? (3500p total)

Admittedly, somewhere between "The desire to efficiently accumulate" and "The lack of desire to commit hard to a color," although I'm leaning hardest towards Blood at present and am slowly getting more ballsy re: the AH. More to the point is that people can have quite a lot of cash invested and still not be competitive. What you're suggesting alone, while not entirely unreasonable given my collection, still requires the equivalent of $50, (plus $22 of my existing cards) and that's not an inconsiderable entry barrier to filling the constructed queue.


Besides time commitment, the biggest barrier to Constructed is the blocks in our own heads. That "this deck is not good enough" feeling. In my physical TCG play, I and many others had no problems spending $5 entry for a weekend Constructed tournament with booster pack prizes. We didn't need the best of the best decks to play and have fun there, is this so different in Hex?

I'd say yes. In your physical TCG play you are competing with the people at your local game store. In Hex you are potentially competing with anyone in the world. That seems huge.


Constructed queues are not the "ultra competitive" setting where the best tier 1 decks are completely necessary. But they feel like they are, likely as the result of being online and available at all hours.

I would actually like to see a streamer do Constructed and see what sort of stuff shows up in the queue, but of course, streamers aren't generally willing to sit there for the duration needed for it to fire, so that's kind of a circular issue.

plaguedealer
04-15-2015, 05:03 PM
I would be all over $5 entry for a weekend Constructed tournament. Hex has nothing like that currently.

I have multiple free tickets for constructed, but I don't use them. My greedy thinking is to wait until set 4, I probably am not the only one. I have a play set of all the sets but don't really feel a desire to do constructed in this game.

Mythicfishmom did alot of constructed streams, haven't seen him in awhile. To be honest streamers play a part on whether something is going to fire because people want to play with the streamer.

hacky
04-15-2015, 05:09 PM
Admittedly, somewhere between "The desire to efficiently accumulate" and "The lack of desire to commit hard to a color," although I'm leaning hardest towards Blood at present and am slowly getting more ballsy re: the AH. More to the point is that people can have quite a lot of cash invested and still not be competitive. What you're suggesting alone, while not entirely unreasonable given my collection, still requires the equivalent of $50, (plus $22 of my existing cards) and that's not an inconsiderable entry barrier to filling the constructed queue.

I completely understand the desire to have a collection able to make any deck I desire. But balancing that with what hobby funds I have available, is a game within itself.

Committing to a deck makes your cost cheaper. Or, finding cheaper but almost-as-effective alternatives to the cards you don't have yet.


I would actually like to see a streamer do Constructed and see what sort of stuff shows up in the queue, but of course, streamers aren't generally willing to sit there for the duration needed for it to fire, so that's kind of a circular issue.

A streamer that wants to get an on-demand queue to fire, will often get that queue to fire. It's more a matter of what a particular caster wants to do, and that often is Draft.

I've seen some Constructed casts here and there, sometimes it's a matter of simply letting livestreamers know that you'd like to see some Constructed play here and there.

magic_gazz
04-15-2015, 06:01 PM
Besides time commitment, the biggest barrier to Constructed is the blocks in our own heads. That "this deck is not good enough" feeling. In my physical TCG play, I and many others had no problems spending $5 entry for a weekend Constructed tournament with booster pack prizes. We didn't need the best of the best decks to play and have fun there, is this so different in Hex?

Constructed queues are not the "ultra competitive" setting where the best tier 1 decks are completely necessary. But they feel like they are, likely as the result of being online and available at all hours.

This is what I am always saying to people.

You can have fun trying to win, you don't have to win for it to be fun. Also the more people that enter with non tier 1 decks, the more chance there is they will face another non tier 1 deck.

magic_gazz
04-15-2015, 06:03 PM
I would be all over $5 entry for a weekend Constructed tournament. Hex has nothing like that currently.

I have multiple free tickets for constructed, but I don't use them. My greedy thinking is to wait until set 4, I probably am not the only one. I have a play set of all the sets but don't really feel a desire to do constructed in this game.

Mythicfishmom did alot of constructed streams, haven't seen him in awhile. To be honest streamers play a part on whether something is going to fire because people want to play with the streamer.

Good point. Streamers do help the events fire.

Problem is its not an interesting stream waiting an hour or more for an event to start.

zadies
04-15-2015, 06:56 PM
. More to the point is that people can have quite a lot of cash invested and still not be competitive. What you're suggesting alone, while not entirely unreasonable given my collection, still requires the equivalent of $50, (plus $22 of my existing cards) and that's not an inconsiderable entry barrier to filling the constructed queue..

Most competitive players in other tcgs just have a single competitive deck at a time... and your collection is worth alot more then a single competitive deck the fact you don't want to commit to making a competitive deck is the issue.

plaguedealer
04-15-2015, 07:08 PM
Most competitive players in other tcgs just have a single competitive deck at a time... and your collection is worth alot more then a single competitive deck the fact you don't want to commit to making a competitive deck is the issue.

Alot of people must have the issue that they don't want to commit to making a competitive deck for constructed. Free tournaments get around 130 people.

There really is no easy fix for the issue outside the 100k tournament, asynch and ranked. The casuals MIGHT come in and dip their toe for asynch, ranked and 100k. However, the casuals are much more likely to build competitive pve decks, which is not a bad thing.

magic_gazz
04-15-2015, 08:06 PM
Free tournaments get more people because they are free.

You don't need any faith in your skill or your deck to enter a free tournament and you still might win a pack.

I don't think casual people will be entering the 100k.

plaguedealer
04-15-2015, 08:22 PM
Free tournaments get more people because they are free.

You don't need any faith in your skill or your deck to enter a free tournament and you still might win a pack.

I don't think casual people will be entering the 100k.
Free tournaments don't get a mass of people to be honest even though they are free. Some of it has to do with the time commitment and such. However, it may also show that there is not hundreds of people ready to go into a free constructed tournament.

Casuals might try 100k if it is tied to some type of ranking system, which is probably the case.

stiii
04-15-2015, 08:30 PM
I'm a bit surprised that there isn't just a two man Q. It is very quick and easy, you get to play for prizes without it taking more than an hour.

plaguedealer
04-15-2015, 08:33 PM
I could be wrong but two man queue is negative ev in mtgo. Very few people play it in mtgo.

Rotating daily events that can only be entered once a day could be a answer. However, payout would need to be something better then scheduled events so unlikely.

My dream would be a weekely event that had multiple play times similar to vip schedule. However, you can only enter once a week. Wishful thinking but it would be cool especially if the ev was great.

Cowbot
04-16-2015, 01:57 AM
Remember that one of the problems he listed is that he is from Europe. I am in Taiwan and I have the same problem. Proving Grounds has nobody in it, and the only queue I ever see fire is competitive draft. Those of you living in the USA may have a hard time understanding why we'd think the game is "dead." It definitely feels that way.

I hope HexEnt will advertise more in Europe. Asia, well, I'll probably have to wait until Hex is ready to release a Chinese client before that ever happens.

Still no word on whether we'll be forced into a walled garden based on our IP address or if we'll have a choice, by the way. Just saying.

Xenavire
04-16-2015, 04:41 AM
China is confirmed walled off. Has been for ages. Everyone not in China or Latin America (Level Up) have nothing to worry about so far.

MuffLord4
04-16-2015, 05:37 AM
Theres no point in advertising more for hex right now. Without PvE this game is just interesting for niche-cardgame lovers which already play this.

And no, please don't call the Frost-Arena the PvE experience that everybody backed this game for.

Personally, I won't give this game another chance, unless there's some campaign or content that I can play with my friends. Seeing stuff like set3 and more focus on pvp for the what...200 people playing this game makes me really think this is becoming vaporware.

Hell hex currently has less followers on facebook than a 15 year Girl that I know. It's a really disheartening state.

nicosharp
04-16-2015, 06:20 AM
"Vaporware" refers to something that does not exist at all. Pretty ignorant to call Hex that. This thread is about PvP, not PvE. Anyways, its really only a matter of a few months before some key milestones are hit.

magic_gazz
04-16-2015, 06:33 AM
Theres no point in advertising more for hex right now. Without PvE this game is just interesting for niche-cardgame lovers which already play this.

And no, please don't call the Frost-Arena the PvE experience that everybody backed this game for.

Personally, I won't give this game another chance, unless there's some campaign or content that I can play with my friends. Seeing stuff like set3 and more focus on pvp for the what...200 people playing this game makes me really think this is becoming vaporware.

Hell hex currently has less followers on facebook than a 15 year Girl that I know. It's a really disheartening state.

Just checked, Hex has over 12k likes on Facebook.

Not sure I want to know what this 15 year old is up to.

Xenavire
04-16-2015, 06:58 AM
Theres no point in advertising more for hex right now. Without PvE this game is just interesting for niche-cardgame lovers which already play this.

And no, please don't call the Frost-Arena the PvE experience that everybody backed this game for.

Personally, I won't give this game another chance, unless there's some campaign or content that I can play with my friends. Seeing stuff like set3 and more focus on pvp for the what...200 people playing this game makes me really think this is becoming vaporware.

Hell hex currently has less followers on facebook than a 15 year Girl that I know. It's a really disheartening state.

There are thousands of unique logins per day (at least, there were back last year, it has probably climbed significantly since arena landed.)

And you may not admit it, but arena is the first piece of PvE content. And, what's more, it is merely the halfway point to real PvE. The next major features (as they sounded in the Podcast recently) will be Set 3+chests (chests could be subject to change, so don't hang your hopes on it until we have confirmation) followed by mercs, double backs, and PvE champions (order unknown, priority unknown).

Chances are we will see fully completed dungeons, levelling, etc, sometime after set 4 (with all the core systems landing in chunks after set 3, being tested in arena, before set 4.) My conservative estimate places the first wave of dungeons around December/January (emphasis on conservative) with optimistic estimates of Octoberish.

Given that is still a ways off, they can't really afford to delay core gameplay (new sets), but hopefully the injection of core features will drive enough interest to keep the PvE players hanging in there (and keep arena fresh while we are at it.)

MuffLord4
04-16-2015, 07:07 AM
Well I currently feel like we won't be able to play PvE with friends before 2017....please give me some shred of hope because I backed this game thinking it would prioritize the mmo aspects...

nicosharp
04-16-2015, 07:13 AM
Well I currently feel like we won't be able to play PvE with friends before 2017....please give me some shred of hope because I backed this game thinking it would prioritize the mmo aspects...
co-op = raiding.. it may truly be a while.. 2017 seems far too long

Xenavire
04-16-2015, 07:15 AM
Well I currently feel like we won't be able to play PvE with friends before 2017....please give me some shred of hope because I backed this game thinking it would prioritize the mmo aspects...

I don't know the plans for raiding as things stand right now, but the plan has always been to drop dungeons and raids fairly close together. Hopefully this is still true, but I can't see why it would take 2 years to materialise. I mean, it isn't even 2 years after the KS yet, and look how much content we have - and content releases should only get faster with time.

stiii
04-16-2015, 10:26 AM
I could be wrong but two man queue is negative ev in mtgo. Very few people play it in mtgo.

Rotating daily events that can only be entered once a day could be a answer. However, payout would need to be something better then scheduled events so unlikely.

My dream would be a weekely event that had multiple play times similar to vip schedule. However, you can only enter once a week. Wishful thinking but it would be cool especially if the ev was great.

You are wrong. Loads of people play them and all events are negative EV.

plaguedealer
04-16-2015, 10:32 AM
I am pretty sure two man queue is the worst ev in mtgo because of collusion issues. You are better off messaging in chat you want to bet plat or something then going into a two man tournament.

stiii
04-16-2015, 10:39 AM
Nothing you said there makes any sense.

plaguedealer
04-16-2015, 10:45 AM
Sure I will restate, two man tournaments are some of the worst ev in mtgo because they don't want you and a buddy agreeing to either win or lose.

Chark
04-16-2015, 10:46 AM
I'm a bit surprised that there isn't just a two man Q. It is very quick and easy, you get to play for prizes without it taking more than an hour.

If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

Xenavire
04-16-2015, 10:53 AM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

Only one way to find out. :p

I personally wouldn't use it, but I would love to get the PvE equips working in PvP - is there a technical issue involved with allowing equipment in PvP? If not, it would be great to have a 2 man queue for Bo3 PvPw/E (it would actually be very interesting as an alternative to the standard 2 man queue, and I would likely use it daily.)

nicosharp
04-16-2015, 10:55 AM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?
That's interesting! I think it would be super popular if it was actually tied to some sort of ladder...

I'd personally rather see the entry fee be free, or like 5 plat, and 1 pack, and the winner gets 2 packs. (10plat in total - output of packs stay the same)
and those packs would not be system rewarded (can not proc primal)

Rehab
04-16-2015, 11:14 AM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

I would play this over the currently available tournaments. Short play time and only need one other to get it to fire. Sounds good to me.

Tazelbain
04-16-2015, 11:41 AM
Feel like 99plat would do much better.

EccentricFan
04-16-2015, 12:35 PM
For me, as long as there is a proving ground, I'm pretty much only going to play constructed tournaments when I get tickets from something. Sure proving ground isn't ideal, especially as the lack of a ranking system means I'm often playing new players.

Honestly though, even with all its imperfections, I still find the proving ground closer to what I want out of constructed anyway. I have more fun just messing around with strange decks or trying to find ways to make cards work that most people ignore. I've no real interest in studying meta and trying to keep ahead of it and make a top tier deck.

So why would I pay platinum to try out imperfect decks in format played almost exclusively by those that are putting together top tier decks? Sounds like a recipe for throwing away platinum I'd rather be spending on drafting or sealed. Those provide me with different formats of the game that I can't get for free.

And I think that's a large part of the problem. I'm sure a large portion of the player base is like me and just doesn't really care all that much about competitive PvP, and certainly not enough to pay for it. This means that solving the queues, especially on off-hours, may not really be solvable with the current player base short of ill-advised excessive rewards for participating.

Even if that is so, I don't at all feel that will prevent Hex from becoming really popular. There are so many different aspects of the game that can attract people. Some prefer drafting. Some are really into the PvE side of things. Some just like the mechanics and want to enjoy casual play. As long as they keep enhancing these aspects, they can draw in more players. And some of these new players will care enough about constructed to join tournaments.

So I think you have it a bit backwards. They don't need to fix constructed to grow Hex. They need to grow Hex, and that will fix constructed incidentally.

plaguedealer
04-16-2015, 12:39 PM
I don't agree with everything you said. But I will say I like alot of what you said eccentric, cheers.

Khazrakh
04-16-2015, 12:46 PM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

Let's just try it, not much to lose here ;)
You'd essentially just sell a booster for 200p and while I don't imagine it would be wildly popular, if there are some folks who'd like to play that format, why not offer them the chance to do so?

Steelio
04-16-2015, 12:54 PM
Such a measure would split the player base too much.

/s


If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

Xenavire
04-16-2015, 12:58 PM
Such a measure would split the player base too much.

/s

I can't really see how - very few people choose to play constructed right now, so there are those that twiddle their thumbs, and drafters (and occasionally sealed players)

This would just be something for constructed people to do while they wait for a constructed queue to pop up. :p

Yoss
04-16-2015, 02:30 PM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

The 8-man "sells" packs at 160p each. Perhaps the 2-man should "sell" at 180p each (90p entry per player, pay out 1 pack).

As others have said, it seems like something easy and safe to try out since you don't even need a client update to do it.

Gwaer
04-16-2015, 02:35 PM
2man will be easier to game than 8man, so it shouldn't have any discount at all, until they have checks in place to monitor it. 100p each is a good starting point.

bootlace
04-16-2015, 02:45 PM
That other game shut down most of their 8 player constructed queues because the 2 player queues proved to be more popular, definitely worth a try.

magic_gazz
04-16-2015, 02:47 PM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

No, because winning means you only get about 170 plat return.

Probably not as bad as some of the MODO payouts on 2 mans, but still not good.

bootlace
04-16-2015, 02:52 PM
No, because winning means you only get about 170 plat return.

Probably not as bad as some of the MODO payouts on 2 mans, but still not good.

You're not factoring primal chance.

RobHaven
04-16-2015, 02:52 PM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

I would

Philip070380
04-16-2015, 03:32 PM
I would
Me too

negotiator
04-16-2015, 03:50 PM
There is really no incentive now for constructed queues to fire. I'm even saying that with many free constructed queue tickets on my account.

There are many many reasons for this:
1) You have to pay more platinum for the queue, than any other queue regarding platinum entry fee.
2) There is no guarantee you get anything as a prize, not even free cards you open, because you already are playing with cards you own.
3) You first need to be confident in your ability to win, since this mode is the highest skill-based competitive mode.
4) You need to put money down up front significantly to build a deck you are confident in that can win against other competitive decks in the meta.
5) The prizes are packs, which you probably don't need many of now, except for flat resale value, as you already have a tier 1 constructed deck (or should)
6) There is no ranking system yet, or exclusive prizes for doing well in these queues.

I think you combine most of the points above, and you have many valid reasons for why these queues don't fire. As HEX gears up for the $100,000 tournament, you will see these queues get a lot more love and attention.. Both from a Developer standpoint to make them better, and player interest standpoint.

"No Life Player" - I think you mean the 3+ hour queues.. They are working on Asynchronous mode (like Hearthstone Arena) but we don't know when it will be available. I can say with family, it is hard to have 3-4hours to sit and play, but at least its a turn-based game with 5 minute timers, so you can take breaks to do pretty much anything and still finish a round. But, you might need to wait till Asynch is around so you can play competitively in 30minute chunks.

first what are these constructed 8 player tourneys that take more then 3 hours your talking about? or must be playing swiss and i don't know why anyone would want to do that it pays so much less then competitive. Every competitive tourney even the ones i won was done in less then 2 hours 30 minutes. And many here are saying constructed is to expensive? well in competitive constructed cost 300 p yes but if you win you your first match you get 2 packs so you will atleast break even. Then we compare that to draft 100 p and 3 packs so your looking at a cost of atleast 550 p for all that. yes you get to keep your cards but what if they are all cheap ones. happens to me often.


And then the other completly dumb thing i see is people saying you need a really expensive deck to win constructed. My total deck cost for constructed is less then 3000 P I can't win every time but i can win 1st match about 80 %. I really don't know how async would work with this game but i really hope it don't come because some of us don't like playing a tournament that takes 1 month to finish!

sukebe
04-16-2015, 03:52 PM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

I would use it, thats for sure :-) I don't have a lot of money but that seems like it would be a fun, somewhat productive way to further test constructed decks. Winning would give about 170p if you just sold the pack + you would have the added chance of getting a primal (which should be worth ~46 plat assuming the proc chance roughly 2%)


2man will be easier to game than 8man, so it shouldn't have any discount at all, until they have checks in place to monitor it. 100p each is a good starting point.

This is exactly why I feel 100p per player is the right price for this little event/queue :-)

Edit:


first what are these constructed 8 player tourneys that take more then 3 hours your talking about? or must be playing swiss and i don't know why anyone would want to do that it pays so much less then competitive. Every competitive tourney even the ones i won was done in less then 2 hours 30 minutes. And many here are saying constructed is to expensive? well in competitive constructed cost 300 p yes but if you win you your first match you get 2 packs so you will atleast break even. Then we compare that to draft 100 p and 3 packs so your looking at a cost of atleast 550 p for all that. yes you get to keep your cards but what if they are all cheap ones. happens to me often.


And then the other completly dumb thing i see is people saying you need a really expensive deck to win constructed. My total deck cost for constructed is less then 3000 P I can't win every time but i can win 1st match about 80 %. I really don't know how async would work with this game but i really hope it don't come because some of us don't like playing a tournament that takes 1 month to finish!

I 100% agree with your statement that constructed does not cost too much, as it is actually a very good EV.

However, while I do not really care about asynch myself you can be sure that when it is implimented it will not take a month to finish as you will be able to play as fast or as slow as you want. It would pretty much just be like the proving grounds but populated by only people who joined the asynch event (I won't call it a tournament, because it isn't :-) ) This would mean that as long as there are enough people in the queue (which I would assume there would be with how many have said they wanted it) then games should fire off pretty quickly and consistantly and you would play however many games the events dictate and be awarded according to you win/loss numbers. This is all speculation of course but it seems highly unlikely they would vary from this by much.

nicosharp
04-16-2015, 03:57 PM
first what are these constructed 8 player tourneys that take more then 3 hours your talking about? or must be playing swiss and i don't know why anyone would want to do that it pays so much less then competitive. Every competitive tourney even the ones i won was done in less then 2 hours 30 minutes. And many here are saying constructed is to expensive? well in competitive constructed cost 300 p yes but if you win you your first match you get 2 packs so you will atleast break even. Then we compare that to draft 100 p and 3 packs so your looking at a cost of atleast 550 p for all that. yes you get to keep your cards but what if they are all cheap ones. happens to me often.


And then the other completly dumb thing i see is people saying you need a really expensive deck to win constructed. My total deck cost for constructed is less then 3000 P I can't win every time but i can win 1st match about 80 %. I really don't know how async would work with this game but i really hope it don't come because some of us don't like playing a tournament that takes 1 month to finish!

Thanks for your feedback?

3+ hours is most any 3 round queue. Sure Constructed may not take that long, but how many minutes do you waste now waiting for the queue to pop?

People want immediate gains. Paying more plat initially does not have the same feeling as paying less plat and packs. People at least know, in other modes, they get what they open in the packs. Its all perception here. Nothing else. You can't look at a packs entry value, and add that to plat entry fees without subtracting the potential card value you get from what you open.

A $15 deck could be expensive to someone. A $50 deck could be expensive to someone else. It's not "completely dumb" to be aware of income inequality and perception amongst a gaming community.

Asynch will likely be sealed only - and eventually maybe some constructed - but I doubt they will want more than 1 Asynch mode...

I wish you put a little more thought into your response.

negotiator
04-16-2015, 04:30 PM
well your yes your right the time waiting in que for constructed might be really long. and thats why i don't hardly play the game any more. In the past i did wait up to a hour or sometimes a little longer while waiting in que but it wasn't to bad for me cause i made sure i had the time and watched a movie on netflix or played another game while waiting.

As far as your pack gain value. You are right about them seeing it as more gain from keeping the cards. I was just pointing out that in realitity if you buy the packs from the shop your spending 700p for the tourney. And i have had so many drafts where i got only cheap rares so my winnings were about 200 p at most from all the cards. And then i would i would have to get first in the tourney just to break even. Overall I lost a lot more then i ever gained the 100+ i have done.

Well if someone could not afford a $15 deck how are they playing drafts? when i said dumb, what i meant is a lot of people i know think you need to spend $200+ for a remotely competitive deck in constructed. And that is just so far from true. My deck is very much beatable by high mana cost troops so i have to win by killing the other player first. But there is many ways to make a very effective deck in constructed at low P$

Xenavire
04-16-2015, 04:35 PM
So, Chark, it seems like the forumites are interested, by and large, but we are small in number - would adding the queue be difficult? If the answer is no, I say just dump it in (after making sure it can't be exploited) and let the data roll in.

If it is difficult to implement, then maybe you could get a poll going, and link it in-game via the announcements/info panel. Would be more reliable than relying on us few. :)

magic_gazz
04-16-2015, 04:36 PM
You're not factoring primal chance.

hmmm

ok im in.

magic_gazz
04-16-2015, 04:38 PM
well your yes your right the time waiting in que for constructed might be really long. and thats why i don't hardly play the game any more. In the past i did wait up to a hour or sometimes a little longer while waiting in que but it wasn't to bad for me cause i made sure i had the time and watched a movie on netflix or played another game while waiting.

As far as your pack gain value. You are right about them seeing it as more gain from keeping the cards. I was just pointing out that in realitity if you buy the packs from the shop your spending 700p for the tourney. And i have had so many drafts where i got only cheap rares so my winnings were about 200 p at most from all the cards. And then i would i would have to get first in the tourney just to break even. Overall I lost a lot more then i ever gained the 100+ i have done.

Well if someone could not afford a $15 deck how are they playing drafts? when i said dumb, what i meant is a lot of people i know think you need to spend $200+ for a remotely competitive deck in constructed. And that is just so far from true. My deck is very much beatable by high mana cost troops so i have to win by killing the other player first. But there is many ways to make a very effective deck in constructed at low P$

I think a lot of people just like to have opinions about things, even when they have no understanding of how they work.

I just lost to a deck that at most had 4 crackling vortex. The rest was common/uncommon.

QuartZ
04-16-2015, 04:52 PM
i would play the queue chark proposed and also would play a queue where both players bring a pack and the winner gets the two packs.
the chance to play for prizes with 1 hour max commitment appeals to a lot of people imo.

Axle
04-16-2015, 04:56 PM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

so many times yes

It might not be the perfect payout..but that's unavoidable as any lower would beat the official store price and cause players to collude and trade wins for cheaper packs. Maybe if there was a prevention system like Gwaer said.

Regardless, for me it's worth it in being time efficient for when you just want to test how your deck fares against other well built decks. Next best thing to having a ladder. The entry cost will generally keeps the vanilla starter decks players out too. One of the reasons I don't play even the free 1v1 queue is that it's a gamble if I'll get a serious deck or not. At least now I know I'll get someone who is confident their deck can win.

I love it, but I also love daily tournaments which sadly never fire. A huge factor is going to be if the game players will think the price is worth the risk and time. On the bright side, all I need to do is convince 1 other player to join, rather than 7 or 15.

Mejis
04-16-2015, 05:49 PM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

Yes, definitely interested Chark! I say let's give it a go.

Banquetto
04-16-2015, 06:38 PM
2man will be easier to game than 8man, so it shouldn't have any discount at all, until they have checks in place to monitor it. 100p each is a good starting point.

Yep. Sadly a 2-man queue with "90p entry, winner gets a pack" is basically the same as announcing: "Packs now cost 180p in the store, unless you have no friends, in which case, they cost 200p still".

Yoss
04-16-2015, 06:54 PM
I really don't know how async would work with this game but i really hope it don't come because some of us don't like playing a tournament that takes 1 month to finish!
I agree with everything you said up to this quoted part. I think you do not understand what people are talking about when we say Asynch Constructed. It wouldn't take you any longer to finish than what we have now, and would likely even be faster.

Yoss
04-16-2015, 06:59 PM
Yep. Sadly a 2-man queue with "90p entry, winner gets a pack" is basically the same as announcing: "Packs now cost 180p in the store, unless you have no friends, in which case, they cost 200p still".

Fair enough. Cheaters ruin everything. (Witness the concubunny exploit.) :(

hacky
04-16-2015, 07:38 PM
For those of you who desire some Constructed tournament action, I'm going to be trying to fire swiss Constructed tournaments tonight, starting in about an hour and a half from now. (9PM Pacific Time)

Zubrin
04-16-2015, 08:08 PM
For those of you who desire some Constructed tournament action, I'm going to be trying to fire swiss Constructed tournaments tonight, starting in about an hour and a half from now. (9PM Pacific Time)

If it were competitive, I would be tempted. Still, I will likely watch.

Fyren
04-16-2015, 08:18 PM
For those of you who desire some Constructed tournament action, I'm going to be trying to fire swiss Constructed tournaments tonight, starting in about an hour and a half from now. (9PM Pacific Time)

I'll be there watching, I think. I do want to see what goes on.

hacky
04-16-2015, 09:15 PM
It won't happen unless you want it to happen. Use a Constructed ticket or shell out the 300 platinum and join me! :D

essif
04-16-2015, 11:13 PM
I would definetly be interested in a 2 man queue!

Philip070380
04-16-2015, 11:16 PM
2 Man Queue Hype !!!!!! Gogo CZE !

Winsanity
04-16-2015, 11:22 PM
I've been playing for a few weeks now, and I do find it a bit odd that constructed is not the main aspect of a card game. I don't know how to feel about it personally. All the other card games I've played base a huge part of the game around constructed and HEX doesn't seem to besides the big tournaments and whatnot. I've always loved playing constructed, and just because a game is heavy on drafting doesn't make it any less competitive. I also enjoy the PVE aspect a lot because a lot of card games do not focus on that kinda thing. I just feel like kind of lost. I've been trying to build up a decent constructed deck lately, but it almost feels like there's no point. It won't be able to compete with the real T1 decks in tournaments, and there's no incentive at all to just randomly play other players. You're much better off just spending all your time drafting or in the arena. Sorry for rambling. I'm still kind of adjusting to the game not having a heavy constructed pvp aspect right now :P

hacky
04-17-2015, 02:17 AM
First, thanks to everyone that joined me for some Constructed earlier. <3


I've been playing for a few weeks now, and I do find it a bit odd that constructed is not the main aspect of a card game. I don't know how to feel about it personally. All the other card games I've played base a huge part of the game around constructed and HEX doesn't seem to besides the big tournaments and whatnot. I've always loved playing constructed, and just because a game is heavy on drafting doesn't make it any less competitive. I also enjoy the PVE aspect a lot because a lot of card games do not focus on that kinda thing. I just feel like kind of lost. I've been trying to build up a decent constructed deck lately, but it almost feels like there's no point. It won't be able to compete with the real T1 decks in tournaments, and there's no incentive at all to just randomly play other players. You're much better off just spending all your time drafting or in the arena. Sorry for rambling. I'm still kind of adjusting to the game not having a heavy constructed pvp aspect right now :P

Organized play (100K tournaments and qualifiers, weekly/monthly tournaments: https://hextcg.com/game/tournaments/) is going to increase the demand for Constructed practice. Draft is every bit as competitive as Constructed, one doesn't take away from the other. I believe eventually, being proficient at both Constructed and Draft/Limited will be important for competition.

Nothing is wrong with building a deck for Constructed that you know is Tier Fun instead of Tier 1. There just might not be a competitive place for Tier Fun. I wouldn't take a Tier Fun deck into a tournament that matters, but I could see myself bringing fun decks into Swiss Constructed 8-man tournaments here and there, and seeing how it stands up.

And, when your Tier Fun deck wrecks a Tier 1 deck through luck or otherwise, isn't that the best feeling? :)

Warrender
04-17-2015, 04:11 AM
I've been playing for a few weeks now, and I do find it a bit odd that constructed is not the main aspect of a card game. I don't know how to feel about it personally. All the other card games I've played base a huge part of the game around constructed and HEX doesn't seem to besides the big tournaments and whatnot. I've always loved playing constructed, and just because a game is heavy on drafting doesn't make it any less competitive. I also enjoy the PVE aspect a lot because a lot of card games do not focus on that kinda thing. I just feel like kind of lost. I've been trying to build up a decent constructed deck lately, but it almost feels like there's no point. It won't be able to compete with the real T1 decks in tournaments, and there's no incentive at all to just randomly play other players. You're much better off just spending all your time drafting or in the arena. Sorry for rambling. I'm still kind of adjusting to the game not having a heavy constructed pvp aspect right now :P

The game is still in beta with a smallish development team. It's going to take time for all aspects of this game to be as well-developed as others. With that said, I'm sure they have plans to build an infrastructure around the announced $100k tourney qualifiers and I would think Constructed will play some part in all of that (I would hope so at least).

zadies
04-17-2015, 08:39 AM
All they really need to do to drive constructed participation is make it the only way to earn qualifier points or have it earn double points since the end part of the competition is constructed.

Incindium
04-17-2015, 12:18 PM
I'd be game for 2 Man Constructed for 100p a person. I don't like playing cookie cutter constructed decks and playing with only 100p on the line means I wouldn't mind playing with a non optimal deck. Could also be a fun game of making a deck to counter what people are playing in the 2man queue that wouldn't necessarily be the best in a larger setting.

zadies
04-17-2015, 02:48 PM
I'm a bit confused by all this I'd play for 100 but not 300 huzza... I mean the non-comp constructed que is bascially that price given you get a pack out of it at zero wins... of course you don't start making a profit until two wins... but if you really want to drive casual constructed or any constructed at all you really need to stop thumbing your nose at people that don't have a t1 deck so don't want to be subsidizing you completely.

Fyren
04-17-2015, 03:02 PM
I'm a bit confused by all this I'd play for 100 but not 300 huzza... I mean the non-comp constructed que is bascially that price given you get a pack out of it at zero wins... of course you don't start making a profit until two wins... but if you really want to drive casual constructed or any constructed at all you really need to stop thumbing your nose at people that don't have a t1 deck so don't want to be subsidizing you completely.

Well, consider:

The prize payout of a Constructed game is 15 packs. The buyin, totalling all players, is 2400p. So that means that as a distributed average, packs are being given out at 160p/pack.

The prize payout of a Draft game is 12 packs. The buyin, totalling all players, is 800p and 24 packs. Now, when you consider that you get to keep the opened cards, it is possible to consider the buyin merely "800p." Thus, packs are being given out at 66.7p/pack.

Taken in that light, the value differential between the two borders on absurdity.

zadies
04-17-2015, 03:04 PM
I wasn't talking about that ev fyren I was talking about when people try to get non-comp to launch an people in chat with t1 decks sneer at the idea that anyone would want to play non-comp constructed.

Also given the context of the comment which was 2 people playing a game for 100 plat where one gets a pack vs 300p where everyone is guaranteed 1 pack but you get a chance to win up to two additional packs.

The draft cost had literally nothing to do with that comment but instead was a complete distraction from the context.

It might have something to do with why isn't constructed firing I really don't know, but it had literally nothing to do with the point being made which was that the non-competitive queue actually pivots around basically the same demographic that would pay 100p for a chance to win 1 pack.

Fyren
04-17-2015, 03:08 PM
I wasn't talking about that ev fyren I was talking about when people try to get non-comp to launch an people in chat with t1 decks sneer at the idea that anyone would want to play non-comp constructed.

Ahh, OK, sorry, misread that. Yeah, I see a similar thing happening with more experienced people with a low regard for swiss drafting.

Yoss
04-17-2015, 05:13 PM
Well, consider:

The prize payout of a Constructed game is 15 packs. The buyin, totalling all players, is 2400p. So that means that as a distributed average, packs are being given out at 160p/pack.

The prize payout of a Draft game is 12 packs. The buyin, totalling all players, is 800p and 24 packs. Now, when you consider that you get to keep the opened cards, it is possible to consider the buyin merely "800p." Thus, packs are being given out at 66.7p/pack.

Taken in that light, the value differential between the two borders on absurdity.

Invalid assumption there. Yes, you keep the drafted/opened cards, but an open pack is worth less than a closed pack in general, or at the very least is not required to be equal. It is not valid to exclude that value change in the calculations, and the math has been provided on these forums multiple times. In any case, Limited consumes more packs than it creates, so even then you can't say that it gives out packs at XXXp per pack. It's more complicated than that.

stiii
04-18-2015, 06:44 AM
I'd be amazed if opened packs where worth even half of an unopened one.

Fyren
04-18-2015, 07:38 AM
Invalid assumption there. Yes, you keep the drafted/opened cards, but an open pack is worth less than a closed pack in general, or at the very least is not required to be equal. It is not valid to exclude that value change in the calculations, and the math has been provided on these forums multiple times.

It was, to be sure, a simplification.

However, a brief search of the forums yielded this:

http://www.hexprice.com/Set/Shards%20of%20Fate
http://www.hexprice.com/Set/Shattered%20Destiny

Both of which seem to suggest that the average price of a pack's contents is actually higher, but I can understand how the price floors for some cards may throw this off. Since it has been on the forums multiple times, and as someone interested in the economics of this game, could you point me to precisely where the statisticians have indicated that the pack's content value is lower than its value and what those values are?

And yes, it consumes more packs than it creates, but I'm not sure how that's necessarily relevant from a net player value proposition?

zadies
04-18-2015, 08:21 AM
It is when the players goal is to go infinite drafting an opened pack is worth 0 to them unless they go through their time selling the contents.... most of the elite players believe going infinite involves getting 1st/2nd in comp draft basically every time.

This really should be a separate thread you have successfully derailed the topic as I stated you had when you made the post :p

stiii
04-18-2015, 10:48 AM
When your data shows that a pack is worth more opened than it costs to buy you really have the question that data.

Incindium
04-18-2015, 10:57 AM
I'd not be surprised if opened pack card value could sometimes eclipse pack costs. It's just selling them with the current AH takes a lot of work. That said I'm actually fine with the AH because it means if you do the work it's easy to profit. If it was super easy to sell cards everyone would do it and all prices would decrease as a result.

Aradon
04-18-2015, 11:04 AM
In a perfectly fluid market, opened pack value could not be higher than unopened pack value because people would buy more packs and sell the contents until card values dropped to be on par with unopened packs. However, I think it's been established that using the AH is not easy, so it's definitely possible that people are opening more value than they are paying for without selling those cards, due to a lack of time or interest.

Basically, in theory the contents of a pack can't be higher than the price of the pack, but this is not a theoretical system.

stiii
04-18-2015, 11:40 AM
But all this "value" IS theoretical. If you can't sell those cards for those prices saying they are worth that much is rather dubious.

zadies
04-18-2015, 11:44 AM
Have you actually tried to sell cards at those prices... if you haven't then you can't state that it is a theory because the cards are being sold... perhaps not 100% of them but you would be surprised as to the amount that that do actually sell.

Gwaer
04-18-2015, 11:50 AM
There is not enough people selling pack contents. So opened pack prices are quite high. A lot of people have been profiting substantially from selling cards no one else is. Until more people are putting more product up drafting is an insanely good value and super easy to go infinite, since pack content prices are so inflated

Yoss
04-18-2015, 01:01 PM
It was, to be sure, a simplification.

However, a brief search of the forums yielded this:

http://www.hexprice.com/Set/Shards%20of%20Fate
http://www.hexprice.com/Set/Shattered%20Destiny

Both of which seem to suggest that the average price of a pack's contents is actually higher, but I can understand how the price floors for some cards may throw this off. Since it has been on the forums multiple times, and as someone interested in the economics of this game, could you point me to precisely where the statisticians have indicated that the pack's content value is lower than its value and what those values are?

And yes, it consumes more packs than it creates, but I'm not sure how that's necessarily relevant from a net player value proposition?

Here's one (a pair, actually):

Every 8 player draft queue introduces the contents of 24 boosters to the economy at the cost of 12 (24 entry minus 12 payout) and 800 platinum. It doesn't matter how games go, what the players win rates are or anything like that if you look at the economy as a whole. This also sets a very strict soft limit on the secondary market value of booster contents: As each draft firing drains at most 3200 platinum from the economy (entry fee + 12 store bought boosters) the contents of an average booster cannot meaningfully exceed 133 platinum or else drafting becomes profitable to the player base as a whole, a situation that cannot be sustainable long term.

Looking at it in a different light, participating in a draft queue is effectively opening booster packs at the cost of 133 platinum each for the average player, so if you want to open boosters and play average in limited it is cheaper to draft than to crack boosters as long as they cost more than 133 platinum in the AH.

In short, while the store price of a booster is 200 platinum, CZE are also already selling you opened boosters at a rate of 133 platinum just by the structure of limited events. Experience with the MTGO economy suggests that the secondary market value of boosters ranges between these two figures, depending on how fun people perceive the limited format to be, and in formats that use boosters from multiple sets the relative values can change drastically depending on the ratio of boosters needed to boosters paid out of each set. (Traditionally, the third set boosters are worth a lot less relatively because they make up a significant portion of the prize payout structure but are consumed at the same rate as the first set boosters, creating a strong disparity in availability on the market.)


From post 41 it sounds like you'd expect a lower bound of 133p on booster price then? This because if the contents are worth 133p, then the unopened pack must be worth at least that much because it has those contents plus the ability to be entered in Limited.

Minor quibble, you didn't account for Primals as part of the value that the 200p retail has to cover. I expect that would drop the calculated price limit a little bit. For example, when you calculated 3200p (at most), we could actually tighten that upper bound by using the upper bound from Post 2 (186p) instead of retail (200p). This gives a bound of 126p rather than 133p.

Really though, the value is variable based on AH price, by formula:
C := value of contents of an average basic pack
DF := Draft entry fee per player
B := AH price of basic booster

C <= (8*DF + 12*B)/24

with constraint B >= C (closed booster must be worth at least the value of its contents).

If we push B to the limit of that constraint (where B=C), we get a price of 67p. That limit can only hold while there is a large supply of cheap boosters (KS rewards, VIP, etc). After that, the AH supply will dry up and people will be forced to buy retail, pushing AH price above the 126p lower bound calculated in this post and up towards the 186p upper bound from Post 2.

The corollary, as you said in your second paragraph, is basically that one should always draft in order to open packs, assuming one values money over time. (The extra value gained is earned through the time spent drafting.)

(All that to say, I agree. I just like to work through it myself for understanding.)

Philip070380
04-18-2015, 02:05 PM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?
I really hope this queue will exist really soon :)

Cowbot
04-19-2015, 04:57 AM
I want that 100p entry queue so bad.

My problem is time. I want a queue that doesn't require me to set aside 3 hours to play it. 1 hour and I can test my tier fun decks without a huge buy in? Yes please.

Voormas
04-19-2015, 05:24 AM
I want that 100p entry queue so bad.

My problem is time. I want a queue that doesn't require me to set aside 3 hours to play it. 1 hour and I can test my tier fun decks without a huge buy in? Yes please.

I agree, I don't really care for Constructed so much because the idea of putting aside that kind of time doesn't appeal to me (Draft on the other hand I have no problem making time for!)

With the upcoming $100,000 tournament I wonder how such a queue would affect qualification / etc? You wouldn't want it to count for nothing, but on the other hand it might be a cost-effective way for someone to cheese the requirements so you would need to be prepared for that

katkillad
04-19-2015, 08:52 AM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

I think this is a good idea.

zadies
04-19-2015, 10:52 AM
I agree, I don't really care for Constructed so much because the idea of putting aside that kind of time doesn't appeal to me (Draft on the other hand I have no problem making time for!)

With the upcoming $100,000 tournament I wonder how such a queue would affect qualification / etc? You wouldn't want it to count for nothing, but on the other hand it might be a cost-effective way for someone to cheese the requirements so you would need to be prepared for that

No you do count it as nothing because it is a practice queue not a tournament queue.

Vorpal
04-20-2015, 09:10 AM
I would be more interested in a ranked ladder than a 1v1 'sparring' queue. That's basically just proving grounds over again.

hex_colin
04-20-2015, 09:57 AM
I would be more interested in a ranked ladder than a 1v1 'sparring' queue. That's basically just proving grounds over again.

I'd want both. Tournaments and the 1v1 sparring queues counting towards ranking, but with Proving Grounds not counting so that there would still be practice options.

zadies
04-20-2015, 10:00 AM
Practice options would really only matter if you could lose points.... but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the structure they are looking at then we could guess at.

Yoss
04-20-2015, 01:08 PM
I would be more interested in a ranked ladder than a 1v1 'sparring' queue. That's basically just proving grounds over again.

The point is that the 1v1 queue can be done in just a few minutes of time since all the programming is already there. Chark just creates a new tourmament format using existing tools. A ladder requires new systems to be put in place first.

N3rd4Christ
04-20-2015, 10:14 PM
+1 to the 100 plat queue!

Yubar
04-21-2015, 04:27 AM
I think once they put async constructed tourneys in constructed will roar back

essif
05-09-2015, 11:03 PM
If I put up a 2-person queue with 100 plat entry and 1 pack to winner prize, would people be interested in that format?

Is there any new information on whether this will be implemented? The fatecup renewed my love for constucted, but currently there is not really anything going outside the community tournaments.

It might even get enough players interested in constructed to let the scheduled event fire once in a while (though it will properly kill the 8-man, as least until playerbase expands)

Tazelbain
05-11-2015, 08:17 AM
A fricken shame is the state of constructed PvP. Hex really owes Fiveshards and Colin for keeping PvP from completely flat-lining.

Philip070380
08-02-2015, 04:54 AM
Thanks to all hex team with set3, there are a lot of improvement about casual gamer. Now, we need a ladder and i will be really happy !
Need constructed gauntlet with bo3 too :)

The_Lannisters
08-02-2015, 04:59 AM
Thanks to all hex team with set3, there are a lot of improvement about casual gamer. Now, we need a ladder and i will be really happy !

Unless I've missed something there has not been official statement about ranked/ladder. It'd be really really good to get a substantial update on where we are with that.