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View Full Version : Will set3 also bring new PvP Champions?



Huxow
04-17-2015, 03:14 PM
I'm hyped so hyped for Set3 hopefully it comes with new PvP Champions aswell!

Gwaer
04-17-2015, 03:28 PM
The answer to that question is a firm 'probably'. So far every new set ever made (set 2) has given us new champs. I expect that since this starts a new block we'll see more new champs than we saw with set 2... But it could be that they're happy with champs and don't change them. Though I find that to be the much less likely outcome.

Vorsa
04-17-2015, 04:31 PM
I'd expect so, if simply because Vennen and Elves are ticking over with the absolute minimum of champion representation - not very flavourful when they are 2 of the focal races in Armies of Myth.

Of course any new champions could wind up being duds/extremely-niche and we'll all play the old ones anyway, but I think they'll at least have a punt on making a thematic champion for each race.

We might see the first champs disappear from PvP rotation if more are added, though I think it wouldn't be hard to spot the weak link in each shard.

Yewstance
04-17-2015, 08:49 PM
Vorsa brings up a lot of good points.

I feel that new champs are likely, for points already mentioned, but I also feel as if there will eventually, probably sooner rather than later, start being a 'rotation' of PvP-legal champions or else they'll literally stop releasing them - due to the learning curve each one represents, especially in typical drafting, in my opinion.

A rarely mentioned aspect of players learning to draft for the first time is building a deck with the considerations of what champions exist, and furthermore, which champions are powerful enough to build around, or which are, in context, of a particular strength. I remember my first ever 1-1-1 draft and being overwhelmed by a Feather Drifting deck, whilst I was trying to play a more control-ey game without realizing that even though there weren't too many fliers (especially at common) in the set, there was a champ that could build around it anyway. Zared Venomscorn is a champion that doesn't seem to have too strong an ability, until the amount of 1-toughness creatures that are played in practice are highlighted.

Even in normal constructed deckbuilding (but particularly for limited formats) adding more champions that have a consistent, important impact on a deck's performance, strategy and gameplay increases the initial learning curve for new players, and increases the likelihood that they'll be overwhelmed. In addition, if we continually get ever-legal new champions, then it becomes harder to predict the opposition's strategy and build decks to counter others and prepare against others - in draft especially - when dozens and dozens and dozens of potential champions are leading the decklists, even from experienced players.

Ramping up the champion numbers with no limitations or restrictions will lead to ever-shrinking design space as well as dangerous strategic implications and marketing (At least, in the principle of keeping new players interested and not overwhelmed or disheartened) concerns.

As for my actual predictions (complete conjecture):

-Set 3 will release a small number of new champions, perhaps one for each color. From then on, new champions will only be in sets if some older champions are rotated out of legal use for play, Draft, Sealed and Constructed all. All champions ever made will still be PvE legal. Several sets into the future, multi-colored champions may be released.

This would extend the status quo as we know it, but I still maintain that they will soon stop releasing new champions, or if they do, they would rotate old ones out.

Alternatively...

-Set 3 will release a large number of champions, at least 15, with all champions legal for Constructed, but only set 3 champions legal for draft/sealed (given that we know that drafts will be set 3-3-3. They may not want the format to be warped around the availability of certain prior champions, such as Sir Giles Rowan). Future rotations, even in constructed, may occur with further sets. Several sets into the future, multi-colored champions may also be released.

This would create a major shake-up, dramatically shift the limited environment, but also involves much more playtesting and risk (one champion may warp the format with its unforeseen power level). If something like this does occur, I wouldn't be surprised to see 'new' champions have abilities extremely close to existing ones, to conserve design space and balance. For example, a Giles-Rowan-esque tribal ability, but perhaps +1/+1 at the requirement of 6 or 7 charges, perhaps in Wild. Or another champion that simply heals you, but at a different amount and for a different number of charges than our current (and perhaps in Diamond). Or a sapphire champion that "Troops you control get flying this turn" for 6 or so charges as an alternative to Feather Drifting.

TOOT
04-17-2015, 09:37 PM
good post Yewstance.

nicosharp
04-17-2015, 09:40 PM
I think the developers are creative enough to deliver 5 new champions with each new set. They did a pretty good job with new creative Heroes for WOW TCG.

My guess is that future champions, once ideas run low, will have charge powers that match new mechanics / keywords introduced with the set. I hope we are 5-6 sets from that day, but I fully anticipate 1 new Champion for each shard with each set.

One interesting example from WOW TCG, is they had one set that was faction based - Neutrals and Demons, and had Heroes with neutral deck building rules. This could be similar for Hex by having "artifact" champions that have no threshold requirements for their charges. Many many potential options, that will still offer PVP stability.

Also, they can rotate old PvP champions out if they so choose.

Xavon
04-17-2015, 10:27 PM
I think the existing ones need rebalancing, first. Like compare Palamedes to Giles.

Taqo
04-18-2015, 03:35 AM
Removed

kaiizza
04-18-2015, 08:36 AM
The answer to that question is a firm 'probably'. So far every new set ever made (set 2) has given us new champs. I expect that since this starts a new block we'll see more new champs than we saw with set 2... But it could be that they're happy with champs and don't change them. Though I find that to be the much less likely outcome.

You evidence is based on a one-time event so far...that seems like a very silly thing to base your entire agurment on don't you think? Considering that the new champions are completely over powered and need a nerf badly I don't se there being new champs for awhile. There will most likely not be new champions as they take time to balance with all cards not just limited cards. They have said as much.

zadies
04-18-2015, 09:09 AM
The champions are tied to the set... I foresee the champions being rotated out when the sets get rotated out and getting some champions each set release... it is a good way to shake up the meta, and they can rotate the champs back in with the same or different abilities in a future set or even the one that is causing them to rotate out but they are definitely tied to the sets themselves.

Scammanator
04-18-2015, 09:11 AM
You evidence is based on a one-time event so far...that seems like a very silly thing to base your entire agurment on don't you think? Considering that the new champions are completely over powered and need a nerf badly I don't se there being new champs for awhile. There will most likely not be new champions as they take time to balance with all cards not just limited cards. They have said as much.

They need new champions to fit the new Set 3 archetypes. We only have one Vennen and one Elf, and neither of them seem like they're particularly specialized like Giles or Bertram (who both look like they might be useless in Set 3 limited). The current pool of champions would be boring in a block they weren't designed for.

Xenavire
04-18-2015, 09:24 AM
You evidence is based on a one-time event so far...that seems like a very silly thing to base your entire agurment on don't you think? Considering that the new champions are completely over powered and need a nerf badly I don't se there being new champs for awhile. There will most likely not be new champions as they take time to balance with all cards not just limited cards. They have said as much.

I don't know where you are getting any of that. But the set 2 champs are not OP - the set 1 champs are widely underpowered.

Chances are we will see new champs of power roughly equal to the set 2 champs, giving us 10 balanced champs from newer sets, to go with the handful of decent champs from set 1.

Gwaer
04-18-2015, 09:54 AM
Just because it has only happened once doesn't mean it's not standard operating procedure. I expect we'll see a number of new champions every set. It makes a lot of sense to do it that way. Not really worth arguing about though, since we'll find out soon enough.

Vorpal
04-20-2015, 09:16 AM
I think the existing ones need rebalancing, first. Like compare Palamedes to Giles.

Or compare Palamedes to Zared.

ShaolinRaven
04-21-2015, 08:23 AM
As others have pointed out I would expect champions to rotate out when a set does. So we'll eventually loose all the set 1 champions, then all the set 2 champions. I could also see future sets bringing those champions back in an "updated" form. Heck, with Necrotic hijacking human bodies I could even see some of the human champions coming back in a necrotic form.

And while champions do take some time to learn its just like learning new cards when a set comes out. Or for new players learning all the cards, so I don't see a reason to restrict how many champions we have just on the basis that people will have to learn how to use them.

Whye
04-22-2015, 09:45 PM
Alternatively...

-Set 3 will release a large number of champions, at least 15, with all champions legal for Constructed, but only set 3 champions legal for draft/sealed (given that we know that drafts will be set 3-3-3. They may not want the format to be warped around the availability of certain prior champions, such as Sir Giles Rowan).

I really like this idea, and hope it has been looked at for the limited aspect of things.

Constructed wise, I would like to see a rotation based on legal sets and what champs came out for those sets.

PvE should stay with every champ remaining legal.

Blare731
04-22-2015, 11:28 PM
I see set 3 coming out with new champions for sure. Whether we can hope for a whole new set of 15 champs like Yewstance suggested, or just another 3 - 5 to make sure that they have champions associated with the set. I would be pretty shocked if they didn't come out with any new champions. Judging bu the 3-3-3 drafts, one would hope for a new base set of champs, but that is a lot of dev time trying to balance them well, so I'm not optimistic but hopeful :D.

Zophie
04-22-2015, 11:33 PM
Just because it has only happened once doesn't mean it's not standard operating procedure. I expect we'll see a number of new champions every set. It makes a lot of sense to do it that way. Not really worth arguing about though, since we'll find out soon enough.

Agreed, they did just fine introducing new heroes with every WoWTCG set, and I'm sure they'll do similar with Hex. There's a ton of design space there for them to really get creative with it and I can't wait to see what great champions they come up with!

bootlace
04-23-2015, 07:07 AM
They need to be EXTREMELY careful with champions. Champions are essentially cards that you have guaranteed access to in a game. Normally a powerful two card combo - like Wild Aura and spellshielded Boulder Brute is fine because the chances of drawing both of cards in near succession without any disruption within a game is not so high - and you deserve to be rewarded if you manage to pull it off. However a champion power + card combo is much more reliable (it's basically a one card combo) and happens much too often for it to have too much power associated with it.

Something like Bunoshi + evasion is near death if your opponent doesn't have or draw their removal. The problem is compounded when you factor in that set 2 (hence 66% of cards in your limited pool) has VERY limited removal (Wild doesn't even have one proper one).

Champions absolutely need to be balanced for the set that they are featured in. Set 1 had loads of removal so a champion like Bunoshi or Lionel Flynn would have been fine, but within Set 2 it is problematic because there's way too much emphasis on a charge power and not enough emphasis on building a cohesive deck that synergizes well with itself.

I hope Hex Ent have learned their lesson - charge powers are neat additions to the game but they shouldn't cast such a huge shadow over the format.

DrakarT
04-23-2015, 07:18 AM
PvE should stay with every champ remaining legal.
I think that Actual champions won't be in pve, they are only while we get our pve heroes and mercenaries

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 07:22 AM
I disagree bootlace. I think champions should be a huge part of shaping the format. Set one champion powers largely felt tacked on. Set two felt much more integrated since they did have such a potent effect.

bootlace
04-23-2015, 08:36 AM
I disagree bootlace. I think champions should be a huge part of shaping the format. Set one champion powers largely felt tacked on. Set two felt much more integrated since they did have such a potent effect.

It's understandable people are going to have different preferences on how prominent of a role champions should serve inside the game - I'm of the theory that cards you buy should serve as center stage but I can see arguments the other way as well.

However it's less debatable whether a format in which you can so easily put together a game-winning strategy (play evasive troop + pump it with charge power) with clear lack of removal for opponent to do anything about is a healthy one. Games against Bunoshi decks often devolve into whether you're able to draw your removal before the damage has been done. I'm not saying Bunoshi decks are OP or anything like that, but it's a poor gaming experience to be always be put on such a RNG clock even if it only goes against you 40% of the time.

Xenavire
04-23-2015, 08:41 AM
Champions help mitigate the difference between new and old players - by both giving variety in deckbuilding and mitigating deckbuilding mistakes.

In my opinion, more is betrer, as long as there is an upper limit that we don't cross. We don't really want to have 60 champions for new players to learn as they come in.

I do hope when they cycle out we get an 'retired' tab where we can use them for fun games.

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 08:42 AM
IMO, as long as champions rotate out frequently enough it shouldn't be an issue. I agree that if the champs stick around through future set design you're adding constraints to the power of your cards in your most current set because of decisions of previous sets. You might have added a bunoshi like champ to shore up something, and took that into account in set two, but that might be overbearing in set 4.

Blare731
04-23-2015, 09:49 AM
Yeah, I don't think, even knowing all the champions, that I would want more than 30. That is just so many champions to go through when you make a deck and worry about in pvp. I think they should come out with champions on a regular basis, with the sets. I think they are just as important to the sets as the cards themselves, and as long as champions are being rotated out, like a bunch have suggested, it would work fine; if not always give champions a fresh feel. Which, when you think about it, that's what sets are for; giving everyone a fresh start. Said another way, champions are already starting to feel stale IMO.

PvE, the more the merrier. I would guess though, that most of the mercenaries and your own skills --- Your character has his own progression --- would be a lot more fun to play with 90% of the time.

MatWith1T
04-23-2015, 09:49 AM
Since Hex is a beautiful amalgamation of TCG, CCG, RPG, MMO, and Bear-Fight Simulator, they should add MOBAs into the mix and have a hundred PvP champs that people can buy individually along with a core free set.

Hmmm... I wrote this post intended as a joke, but now I'm thinking there might be some legitimate way of doing that...

Zophie
04-23-2015, 10:13 AM
I think that Champions should be rotated out in Limited formats based on what sets are allowed in the draft/sealed, but in Constructed/Proving Grounds formats where all sets are allowed I would expect all Champions to also be allowed.