PDA

View Full Version : The problem with not sitting across from your opponent, digital vs physical PVP



Drake6k
04-20-2015, 08:57 PM
Something I didn't realize when I first found HEX was how much I would miss seeing my opponents reactions, movements, etc, like I have in physical TCGs. TCGs do feel different when you can't see or hear your opponent.

I was trying to think of ways to make a digital TCG like HEX a little less lonely. Maybe webcams? I'm sure tons of people would hate that. Maybe voice chat? Tons of people would hate that too. More chat emotes? I guess that will help some.

One scenario: Let's say you have a few cards in your hand, you didn't play a resource last turn (you didn't have any). Your turn, you draw a card and it's a resource. Do you put that card down straight away? If you put the card you just drew down your opponent will know that the card you drew was a resource, so anything you already had you still have, nothing new. Do you shuffle your hand for a bit first so your opponent doesn't know what you just drew? This kind of visual feedback is hard to replicate in a digital TCG. I was wondering if the order of cards in hand could be adjustable and beyond that if you could actually see the placement of the card they draw and see them adjust card positions in hand. Maybe you could even see your opponent fidget by watching them organize their hand, just like in a physical TCG.

Ever play a physical TCG where you topdeck the card you need to win (maybe a burn card) and you just toss it on the table like "Bam!, I freakin' win." without even paying resources or anything. Ever drop a board wipe and watch your opponent's jaw drop a bit and their pride shrivel up as they have to scoop up a dozen troops? I miss that kind of feedback in HEX. Do you have any ideas on how to make HEX PVP have a bit more human interaction? I want to tread lightly here; I don't want to scare the socially anxious types into thinking they'll be forced to interact with anyone.

TOOT
04-20-2015, 09:10 PM
The absolute last thing I want to be doing while playing Hex is to have to shuffle the cards in my hand every single turn to avoid giving off any information.

funktion
04-20-2015, 09:15 PM
Just me, but I don't really miss this. Granted I get that type of face to face social interaction satisfied through doing other stuff on a daily basis.

Drake6k
04-20-2015, 09:16 PM
The absolute last thing I want to be doing while playing Hex is to have to shuffle the cards in my hand every single turn to avoid giving off any information.
I completely agree with you!! No idea how that information could be portrayed in a useful and non-intrusive way.

Gwaer
04-20-2015, 09:19 PM
This is a problem that I was quite concerned about early on, and I think hearthstone does a pretty good job at mitigating it a little, you can see people hovering over their cards and moving them around, doesn't give too much info away there, or in physical gameplay. I don't see it being added to Hex, but I kind of think that is a shame, because I'm right there with you and I miss it, too.

Mejis
04-20-2015, 09:34 PM
... I think hearthstone does a pretty good job at mitigating it a little, you can see people hovering over their cards and moving them around, doesn't give too much info away there, or in physical gameplay. I don't see it being added to Hex, but I kind of think that is a shame, because I'm right there with you and I miss it, too.

Pretty sure you can't move them around. Only hover over them. But yes, seeing them being highlighted is pretty cool.

Which makes me wonder: you can move cards in your hand around in HEX (a lovely feature, as I like to rearrange things by cost, etc)... but can your opponent see that?
Related: when a card is drawn and you see it go to your opponent's hand, does it become the right-most card from your perspective?

Fyren
04-20-2015, 10:00 PM
As someone with a tendency to introversion, more than a little anxiety from time to time, and the bluffing skill of a drunken guilt-riddled corgi, I do not particularly miss direct personal interaction. Playing with people face to face can be fun, no question, and I do it from time to time, but for me it's almost never relaxing, and I can burn out on that awful fast.

Starving_Lich
04-21-2015, 02:09 AM
In my favourite card game of the past which was released for the Nintendo DS (we are talking Yugioh here) there was the possibility to customize your avatar and edit the lines that would be said by it for every single phase as well as under certain circumstances, for example going "Huh, you fell right in my trap" as you activate trap cards and the like. This next to simply using you game-chat more frequently is the only thing i could come up with to make a game more "personal".

Assassine
04-21-2015, 04:52 AM
Im pretty much always on Teamspeak when i play Hex with friends. Some friendly banter makes the games much more fun :D

darkwonders
04-21-2015, 04:56 AM
Pretty sure you can't move them around. Only hover over them. But yes, seeing them being highlighted is pretty cool.

Which makes me wonder: you can move cards in your hand around in HEX (a lovely feature, as I like to rearrange things by cost, etc)... but can your opponent see that?
Related: when a card is drawn and you see it go to your opponent's hand, does it become the right-most card from your perspective?

Well any time you're clicking on a card and targeting something, but not actually executing it, the opponent sees that all in Hearthstone.

You can glean a lot of information based on how the opponent is doing stuff like that, especially in a limited deck size such as hearthstone.

Not sure if I want that in Hex.

bootlace
04-21-2015, 05:03 AM
I'm totally in favor of the Hearthstone card hover/card tracking system being visible to opponent. In real life these are tells you can pickup by observing your opponent's eyes and it makes sense that these translate over to the digital medium.

Tinfoil
04-21-2015, 08:20 AM
Games should totally be social, especially hobby games. But the social part should be optional and scaleable. How to implement it though, I don't know.

KingGabriel
04-21-2015, 09:12 AM
Just me, but I don't really miss this. Granted I get that type of face to face social interaction satisfied through doing other stuff on a daily basis.
" Also get less people raging when losing, and I don't have to go miles to get a draft going.

This is a problem that I was quite concerned about early on, and I think hearthstone does a pretty good job at mitigating it a little (partial)
HS loses a lot of sociability when I can only communicate by saying "WELL MET" though...

vickrpg
04-21-2015, 10:38 AM
I really like the way Hearthstone shows hovering and selecting, but I don't particularly think it's a feature I need in Hex. I'm okay with them being 2 different games. and I'm pretty sure that what you do in HS doesn't match up exactly to how your opponent sees it, and cards aren't in the same order, etc.. but I need to test it.


In my favourite card game of the past which was released for the Nintendo DS (we are talking Yugioh here) there was the possibility to customize your avatar and edit the lines that would be said by it for every single phase as well as under certain circumstances, for example going "Huh, you fell right in my trap" as you activate trap cards and the like. This next to simply using you game-chat more frequently is the only thing i could come up with to make a game more "personal".

I would love it if we had reaction emotes like YGO. Whenever a troop is summoned, destroyed, damage is taken, healing is done, action or quick action is played a text bubble next to your champion would appear saying some pre-written text. It would be great, only if it also had the ability to be toggled off. I'd like this, but I don't think I'd like it if we spent valuable dev time on this right now.

KingGabriel
04-21-2015, 10:56 AM
I would love it if we had reaction emotes like YGO. Whenever a troop is summoned, destroyed, damage is taken, healing is done, action or quick action is played a text bubble next to your champion would appear saying some pre-written text. It would be great, only if it also had the ability to be toggled off. I'd like this, but I don't think I'd like it if we spent valuable dev time on this right now.
What, pray tell, advantage would this hold over using the chat box...?

Vorpal
04-21-2015, 11:33 AM
Hex has more interaction than hearthstone because of the chat box. I don't think it's worthwhile at all to spend time coding up a way to shuffle cards around in your hand.

Anyway, just pretend you are playing poker, and everyone is sitting silent and stonyfaced.

Gwaer
04-21-2015, 11:49 AM
Even people sitting silent and stonyfaced give off some information. And the chat box just isn't the same :(

Fyren
04-21-2015, 11:58 AM
Even people sitting silent and stonyfaced give off some information.

And I would rather not give off that information! :p I read boardstates MUCH better than I read people. And some of you have seen how well I read boardstates.

Starving_Lich
04-21-2015, 12:08 PM
well first of all having a pre written dialogue said by your ig avatar would be fun for people liking to roleplay even in a card game (they exist, everywhere) also it would personalize your favourite avatar and the like. People like this, I do, and people that are antisozial and dislike writing in chatbox or are to shy to write after a succesful move could express their joy in a prewritten format. Not to mention, like this you could still get all dem scrubs that don't even say hallo to you at the begin of the battle :D

Also in that game i mentioned you could choose your "signature card" and everytime it got summoned your character said a super fancy "chew on this" kinda line :D i would like this. Makes me able to show my enemy my favourite card and make me feel fancy ^^. Suuuuuure this might be tactically unwise and all, but dudes, this is a game. Even in tournaments champs go "WHOOOOOO" as they play their uberpro fav. card.

vickrpg
04-21-2015, 12:22 PM
What, pray tell, advantage would this hold over using the chat box...?

More fun. Less typing. Automation and immersion. you could even have default responses for each champion for further character development. It'd pop up, as opposed to have to be checked like the chat box, etc.


well first of all having a pre written dialogue said by your ig avatar would be fun for people liking to roleplay even in a card game (they exist, everywhere) also it would personalize your favourite avatar and the like. People like this, I do, and people that are antisozial and dislike writing in chatbox or are to shy to write after a succesful move could express their joy in a prewritten format. Not to mention, like this you could still get all dem scrubs that don't even say hallo to you at the begin of the battle :D

Also in that game i mentioned you could choose your "signature card" and everytime it got summoned your character said a super fancy "chew on this" kinda line :D i would like this. Makes me able to show my enemy my favourite card and make me feel fancy ^^. Suuuuuure this might be tactically unwise and all, but dudes, this is a game. Even in tournaments champs go "WHOOOOOO" as they play their uberpro fav. card.
This. Exactly this. I also think it would make streams waay more interesting. but again, nice dream, but is it worth the dev time? I don't think so, not right now anyway. Maybe when Hex is so huge we eclipse that other game, and people start thinking that they're just a clone of Hex.

israel.kendall
04-21-2015, 12:30 PM
I also miss the body odor from my opponents in game stores. I might suggest utilizing this Sony technology to beam these smells directly into your brain: http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2005/04/4785-2/

Yoss
04-21-2015, 06:01 PM
I'm totally in favor of the Hearthstone card hover/card tracking system being visible to opponent. In real life these are tells you can pickup by observing your opponent's eyes and it makes sense that these translate over to the digital medium.

I'd say there are about 1000 things on the dev list before this would be my priority, but it still sounds interesting.

Sparrow
04-21-2015, 10:06 PM
I marginally prefer not having a feedback feature. "Tells" are pretty much useless online since there's no emotion involved. A lot of players try to use HS's feedback system to bluff so it's much easier for me to have no feedback feature at all rather than mentally having to edit all that noise out.

Now if you want to require all players to wear some sort of gel mask that transmits their facial expressions, respiration rate, blink frequency, head position, pupil dilation, etc., I'd be fine with that.

zadies
04-22-2015, 09:34 AM
You could just add a webcam feature... though I don't really think it is a great idea, but in theory you could put a webcam box right where the opponents champ picture is:p

Kami
04-22-2015, 09:53 AM
Considering how often I've played chess on the internet, I don't feel that needing a physical, visual, or even audio presence is necessary to get a gauge on your opponent.

There's a lot of nuances that you pick up as you play more. Everything from how your opponent chats with you to how long he takes to make a decision and more.

There are some things that can be improved upon though; for example, in MTGO, you can tap mana but undo it if necessary. If I recall correctly, the opponent can see every movement on the board.

Zophie
04-22-2015, 04:10 PM
I don't think we need to add webcam support unless we're also planning on implementing official rules for Strip Hex. We can just use Skype for that anyway so no need to tie up development time on that feature. I'll still take some rules for Strip Hex though if anyone has any ideas on this.

Blare731
04-22-2015, 05:01 PM
I don't think we need to add webcam support unless we're also planning on implementing official rules for Strip Hex. We can just use Skype for that anyway so no need to tie up development time on that feature. I'll still take some rules for Strip Hex though if anyone has any ideas on this.


I like this Strip Hex idea... Go on. I'm listening :D



As for the topic, and you can take this with a grain of salt since I haven't participated in tcg tornaments, but I play with my friends. To me, playing them face to face with them, and over Skype gives me the same sense of presence. As for the drafts I participate in on Hex, I just go by mostly what they say, if they say anything, and if they take a while to make decisions like Kami mentioned. It really isn't all that important to me though, and I can already see the millions of complaints if a voice chat was made. The only thing I'll say is that it better have an off switch. I don't mind talking to everyone once in a while but if I need to mute someone or turn it off all together that better be around. If there is an easy way to mute or turn it off I think it will be cool.

I think it would work great if it was like the old xfire way of talking. Where in chat you could request voice chat to the person and they can accept or not. That way it doesn't bother people that don't want to do it, and it doesn't force everyone to play with their settings as well.

You could also set it up so that if someone were to say no, then only that person had the authority to ask the other person to voice chat. This is to prevent any spamming I guess. Just my 2 cents though.

Gwaer
04-22-2015, 05:15 PM
I think something as simple as being able to see your opponents cursor, and see their cards enlarge slightly as they hover over them really would be enough to really remind yourself that you're playing against a real person. Not even really for tell reasons. It's just more immersive and social.

I don't really like Web cam or voice integration. Because I don't want to be forced to put on clothes or talk to people. But an implementation like curse voice and smite where you're automatically connected to people if you turn it on would be cool. It's simple to mute individuals or not turn on the curse voice software at all, and it's very organic to just suddenly be connected to your opponent without any dialogue pop-ups or anything.

Drake6k
04-22-2015, 08:11 PM
I really like all the ideas about opponent card hovering and maybe opponent cursor being visible. More human feedback from PVP opponents might be a bigger improvement than people realize, it's pretty huge for me anyway.

Ever see people play tabletop simulator? I'm imagining shooing away other peoples cursors as they hover around my cards, and smiling to myself while they shuffle through their hand for a solution to whatever problem is on the board.

Now I'm thinking about the possibility of dragging cards from your hand onto the board (as an option, not required). I'd love to hold an extinction over the board upside down and swirl it around a few times in front of my opponent before dropping it directly in the middle of the troops. Imagine playing against a deck with lots of countermagic, you play a bomb and while waiting to see if they will counter you can see your opponent fumbling with one or two cards in their hand, making you wonder what they're considering. I think this subtle stuff makes a huge difference.

Whye
04-22-2015, 09:23 PM
I also miss the body odor from my opponents in game stores. I might suggest utilizing this Sony technology to beam these smells directly into your brain: http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2005/04/4785-2/

More along these lines, how about a special feature on release day-weekend where whenever a person playing a match next to you bumps the table and it spills their opponents drink everywhere on the tiny tables everyone is sharing.

But a tableflip button would be great for drafts match losses.

Ju66ernaut
04-23-2015, 07:42 AM
I just really, really, REALLY want the chat notifications back. I used to chat with pretty much anyone I played against. But now its just so easy to loose track of the conversation because you don't realize it's there.

Xenavire
04-23-2015, 07:50 AM
I just really, really, REALLY want the chat notifications back. I used to chat with pretty much anyone I played against. But now its just so easy to loose track of the conversation because you don't realize it's there.

This. I was much more social when I could see my chat warnings.

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 07:55 AM
Not gonna lie, even when the chat was more present, and I was more social, I still missed all the other things discussed in this thread.

Fyren
04-23-2015, 10:32 AM
This. I was much more social when I could see my chat warnings.

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with this one. That much I'd honestly welcome.