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Ream
04-21-2015, 03:15 AM
I ‘am a new player in Hex and have start with the human deck. Now after the starter deck tutorial and some frost ring arena fights (tier 3) I’ am somewhat discouraged how to get new cards.

Ok you can buy cards for ingame gold and find sometimes in the frost ring, but for now the auction house is horrible, especially for new players. As new player I think “Ok, let’s take a look in the auction house, and set the filter to diamond and sapphire” and BOOM 300 sites of cards and sometimes 2-3 sites of the same cards and you don’t know if you are the only bidder and the seller use another account to up the prize. I wish the auction house gets better after the open beta.

So, now back to topic, I think the feature of login rewards is a nice one and a little help for the players in early and mid-game. Of course many of the rewards are not the best, but if you’re you can get a nice reward.

The list of rewards could look like this:

Often (~60% Chance):

100-200 gold
Common card or equip


Sometimes (~25% Chance):

500 gold
5 platting
Uncommon card or equip
5% Discount to buy platinum
Special “Login rewards sometimes” shelves
1 “Free entry: Constructed Queue” Token
Treasure Chest


Rare (~10% Chance)

3000 gold
30 platinum
Rare card or equip
15% discount to buy platinum
Special “Login rewards rare” shelves
1 Random Booster


Super rare (~1%)

5 Random Booster + Special “You're lucky” shelves
100.000 gold + Special “You're rich” shelves
1000 platinum + Special “You're platinum” shelves


What’s your opinion about this? I think that’s some rewards is no bad deal for Hex Entertainment and Gameforge (Discount for platinum, some people who wanted to buy none, then buy platinum)
I hope that’s Hex Entertainment, Gameforge and the other players find this an good idea like me

Xenavire
04-21-2015, 03:18 AM
Login rewards are awful, and make me not want to play (if I miss several days, I feel behind.)

The exception should be buy-in based, since then it is an opt-in feature, but it should not be standard, because it will leave people with a bad taste in their mouths.

Ju66ernaut
04-21-2015, 03:24 AM
Welcome to the forums Ream! I do like your idea. However, it seems to be exploitable by gold farmers. One person could find a way to create 100 accounts, log in on them 1 by 1, then just farm the login rewards. Unfortunately, I believe you will need to pay with your time or pay with your wallet if you would like to advance in the game with greater speed.

bootlace
04-21-2015, 03:32 AM
Login rewards already exist: Spectral Lotus Garden.

Not a fan of giving away free stuff, even if it's gold or PvE items. I don't mind some kind of boost that gives people the ability to earn stuff. For example log-in daily rewards could be something like "100% experience from your next PvE Dungeon" or "100% extra loot from the next boss you kill" or even "you may summon a free Ebony Pawn in the next boss fight of your choice". Little things like that are fine once per day to shake things up a bit and provide a bit of motivation to log-on.

Salverus
04-21-2015, 04:48 AM
I am in favour of cards like spectral lotus that bootlace mentioned.
One extra card per day (preferrable also untradeable) that can be used once or something. But giving gold, items or even platinum for logging in seems wrong. Since people will just create multiple accounts and prices of everything will only increase.
As a f2p right now it is not too difficult to earn (good) cards.

edit: maybe it could potentionally work if it is something like after completing a full arena run for the first time of this day you get x reward, like a 25% bonus gold reward for the first arena run every single day or so.

Patrigan
04-21-2015, 05:00 AM
It definitely shouldn't give PvP stuff or Platinum. I'm all for a random lottery, as I have proposed in the past, which uses either your collections or your friends. The more you have, the more chance you have to win something. Winning something bigger should have a very small chance.

Xenavire, I can understand feeling behind if the rewards ramped up, those systems are horrible, but there's nothing wrong with the same rewards every day. In the latter case, it would feel similar to (but a lot less impactful) like having to miss a VIP weekend.

Either way, it shouldn't be too blanket. Maybe some more cards like the Spectral Lotus Garden. Perhaps they should give us the opportunity to have this big garden in our keep, where we keep all our farmable cards.

Diesbudt
04-21-2015, 05:05 AM
Not for login reward System. Always makes the game feel forced. No thank you.

Xenavire
04-21-2015, 05:06 AM
It definitely shouldn't give PvP stuff or Platinum. I'm all for a random lottery, as I have proposed in the past, which uses either your collections or your friends. The more you have, the more chance you have to win something. Winning something bigger should have a very small chance.

Xenavire, I can understand feeling behind if the rewards ramped up, those systems are horrible, but there's nothing wrong with the same rewards every day. In the latter case, it would feel similar to (but a lot less impactful) like having to miss a VIP weekend.

Depending on the reward, it could be ok. But that is why I mentioned the buy-in - lotus gardens are a good reason to log in, don't feel forced, and required a buy-in. I think anything too useless for free would not encourage people to log in, anything too good would break the system if it were free... So a sort of sub would be great - pay X amount of gold to get X reward every day you log in for a month. Maybe a plat one could be put in place too, but I am not sure how popular that would be.

Wouldn't hurt to have another gold sink though, right? :p

Mejis
04-21-2015, 05:14 AM
I don't really like the idea of login rewards. They have it in Duel of Champions and, when I did play, I felt frustrated when I missed a day.

I also think it's unnecessary as there is actually a really good way for new players to get cards already: I.e. the frost ring arena (and that's just scratching the surface of PvE that's yet to come ... Still beta!)
Ream, what I mean is that you can use your earned gold to huge advantage in the auction house ... You just need to work a few tricks. When looking for cards, just search and then sort by time. The ones nearest the top will finish the soonest. if you're buying commons/uncommons you'll be able to pick those up for 10s (yes 10s) of gold, or 100s of gold. Often the buyouts for commons are below 1000. I often sell commons with a buyout of 200-300 gold just as a way to get rid of the excess.
there are definitely good ways to use the AH to your advantage for higher rarity cards... It just takes a bit of patience and watching ;)

Ream
04-21-2015, 05:31 AM
I find it interesting, i never speak about a daily reward but everyone thinks about it :) It could also be a weekly reward.

There are many opportunities to prevent gold farmers and "reward"-accounts for example you gain the rewards only after X-matches, X-hours played or X-platinum bought.

The idea with buffs for dungeons or arena boss fights once per day also sounds good.

Xenavire
04-21-2015, 05:42 AM
I find it interesting, i never speak about a daily reward but everyone thinks about it :) It could also be a weekly reward.

There are many opportunities to prevent gold farmers and "reward"-accounts for example you gain the rewards only after X-matches, X-hours played or X-platinum bought.

The idea with buffs for dungeons or arena boss fights once per day also sounds good.

Login reward does mean daily to most of us (see WoW daily quests, many free to play MMO's, etc.) Sorry if we assumed too much there. ;)

As for weekly or any other spin on it? Done right, it could potentially work. But anything that can be unfairly abused could not be done (plenty of stuff falls there by default) and there are a few grey areas that could be a bit nasty.

A temporary buff doesn't sound too terrible on the one hand, but on the other hand it does make me worry that people would only log in, do whatever until the buff wears off, and then instantly log off (which would be forcing them to play for X amount of time a day, instead of playing at their own pace, like on weekends etc.) I am not sure how I feel about those sorts of buffs over the long term, but putting them in during event periods seems like a great idea.

Still not sold on the idea, but there are ways to make the login rewards less frustrating, and if we could cook up something good I might just convert. :p

Ertzi
04-21-2015, 05:51 AM
Please, HEX, never ever create any kind of login reward in the future. This would be one of the worst features possible. There is enough stuff in-game already. Player's can't constantly be given more free stuff. There is too much of that as it is. I don't also ever want to see anything that forces me to log in every day. And before anyone comments that I wouldn't have to log in every day, yes I would. I'm the kind of player that would absolutely feel that I couldn't miss even one day, and I don't need that stress.

MatWith1T
04-21-2015, 06:04 AM
There is no such thing as a login reward, only inactivity penalties.

Xenavire
04-21-2015, 06:11 AM
There is no such thing as a login reward, only inactivity penalties.

That is why I said to tie it into a gold sink. You pay for the privilege to get stuff every day. If you don't want the rewards, you save gold.

Cernz
04-21-2015, 06:33 AM
dislike :)

bootlace
04-21-2015, 07:01 AM
Another login reward that already exists: seasonal sleeves.

darkwonders
04-21-2015, 07:13 AM
If it's tied to PvE related stuff, I'd be fine with that.

PvE is already going to reward people who play the most. Why not give a small reward for people who don't have the time to spend 5 hours a night farming?

Xenavire
04-21-2015, 07:13 AM
Another login reward that already exists: seasonal sleeves.

Well, they aren't really seasonal per se, but I do love getting those sleeves. Anything that isn't abusable is generally pretty good in my book, and 1-off sleeves is just the right fit. :)

Svenn
04-21-2015, 07:36 AM
This has come up before. Any sort of daily rewards thing pushes me away from a game. I feel obligated to log in every day, even when I'm not up for it and eventually I resent the game for it.

Also, Cory has said that he doesn't want to put in the crappy f2p daily rewards stuff.

nicosharp
04-21-2015, 08:22 AM
The game already rewards players in many ways to play:

1) You can "Gamble" already on PvP Chests - and win packs etc. for the gold you spend
2) You can already win Primal Packs for the packs you buy or win in tournaments
3) You can already win gold and cards/equipment in special encounters in the arena
4) You can trade your entire collection (except sleeves), and everything has value. This isn't Hearthstone or SolForge, or any other game that either doesn't allow trading, or has zero value for what is obtained.


Make an effort, start grinding or with a bankroll, and let Auction House sales be your daily rewards.

PureVapes
04-21-2015, 08:26 AM
A minor, consumable, non-tradable, 12-hour expiration, PvE-only bonus perk sounds fine. Maybe something to help you beat the first boss, as someone mentioned before.

If you aren't playing that day it won't matter since it will expire even if you get it, and multi-account abuse for that would actually be more time than it's worth if it's tuned properly. Getting more PvE players actively logging in regularly matters, whether or not the posters in this thread (who I mostly recognized as spenders) like the idea of a small daily bonus.

Patrigan
04-21-2015, 08:38 AM
I'm really liking the idea of "The Keep Gardens", where you plant cards that spawn daily new cards. Spectral Lotus is like that already. Others could join the type. You can then also limit the plot of land on which you can plant your gardens, limiting you to a set number per day. This will also lessen the negative feeling of players unable to get a Spectral Lotus Garden, since there are many alternatives for their garden. All of these gardens also have to be gathered through other means, like completing quests, drops from bosses, wheel of fate, ... This makes it so that it becomes an effort to collect them and prevents farming them with new accounts.

Here's another great garden idea:

Briar Rose Garden
The first time you login each day, this creates a Briar Rose and adds it to your collection.

Briar Rose
Cost: 1
Treshold: WW
Wild Artifact (because why not? Else Ongoing)
Briar Legions you control have +1/+1
3 Exhaust: Briar Legions you control have +2/+2 and crush this turn. This irreversibly transforms into Briar Legion. This change persists even after the game ends.

(It's a cool effect because the card itself becomes a briar legion with +3/+3 crush and speed, since it was already in play)

Opinions?

KingGabriel
04-21-2015, 09:16 AM
Cory has already specifically spoken against these; I agree it doesn't fit here.

Thrawn
04-21-2015, 09:44 AM
I want to login to Hex because it's fun and I want to play it, not because I feel like I'm obligated to or I'll miss out on something.

zadies
04-21-2015, 09:49 AM
Yeah have to agree saying the lotus garden which people paid a large chunk of money for and comparing it to a free give away really no where near close to the same thing, and I hope Cory never changes his mind about it.

In regards to the actual suggested give away those tiers have things that should NEVER be given away even if they do implement it.

Often (~60% Chance):
Common card or equip


Sometimes (~25% Chance):
Uncommon card or equip
5% Discount to buy platinum
1 “Free entry: Constructed Queue” Token
Treasure Chest


Rare (~10% Chance)
30 platinum
Rare card or equip
15% discount to buy platinum
1 Random Booster


Super rare (~1%)
5 Random Booster + Special “You're lucky” shelves
1000 platinum + Special “You're platinum” shelves

Unless those are pve cards that is basically a list of things that were presented that should NEVER be given away... anything that you have to buy directly with platinum or platinum itself can't be handed out every single day even at a .01% chance because you just end up with people making multiple accounts to farm the hell out of it by loging into them. You can make an argument for gold being the same.

Also they have said previously they were never going to offer discounts on platinum.

nicosharp
04-21-2015, 09:50 AM
Opinions?
Got to admit I loved plants vs. zombies, and see some benefits to having a fun mini-game of sorts for PvE only; that includes gold sinks for a "garden" or some sort of gold fueled PvE rewards based on time-triggers.

It's not a daily "reward", if it's a mini-game you are paying for.
And it's not going to negatively impact the economy if it only effects PvE and all items are unique within the mini-game bubble.

zadies
04-21-2015, 09:52 AM
Some mini-game that is interactive is not the same as a login reward... but approaches daily quest territory which while I don't consider taboo like login rewards do tend to annoy people.

vickrpg
04-21-2015, 10:28 AM
Yeah, I also definitely think login rewards would have too much of a negative impact on both the game experience and the economy. but as to the other point in the OP, I have noticed that it is not as easy as we think it is for new players to expand their collection.

I'm not talking about rewards, economy numbers, or the ability to build your collection with paying 0 money. I'm talking about someone with 0 EXPERIENCE trying to grow their collection.

The poor OP was browsing to see what cards exist that he could buy by using the AH! That's a terrible way to use the AH. I'm surprised nobody noticed, or at the very least commented about that!

Right now a brand new player has to do the starter trials, run arena, figure out what cards he could use in his deck, figure out where to browse for those cards, figure out the filters that would allow him to see cards he doesn't own in the card manager, figure out what the best ways to use the AH are, find the cards they need on there and learn to edit their deck properly, and how to price/sell cards/equip with the AH interface.

Most of us who play WoW or other MMOs know how to do this intuitively. Most of us who play TCGs know to look at the spoilers or lists to see what exists before we buy. Most of us who have been playing hex for a while know all the cards already. We know the UI and interface. Not having any of these can cause a horrible first play experience for new players.

simple tooltips and a help button (as long as they are turn-off-able) would solve a lot of the problems the OP is trying to solve with daily rewards.

Saeijou
04-21-2015, 10:58 AM
Login rewards are awful, and make me not want to play (if I miss several days, I feel behind.)

The exception should be buy-in based, since then it is an opt-in feature, but it should not be standard, because it will leave people with a bad taste in their mouths.

^this! thanks xenavire, exactly what i think :)

Mombeater
04-21-2015, 11:05 AM
Infinity Wars had an interesting two-fold free card process in place:

1). Free random card for first login, first victory and third victory of the day. This encouraged logging in and actual playtime (although you could just play the AI for these victories, you were still playing).

2). Random weekly accomplishments to win additional cards, such as win X pvp games, win x games with a monofaction deck, beat opponent in X turns or less, etc. This encouraged community play and some form of socializing with strangers.

With the time investment required, it was unlikely anybody would farm this on multiple accounts, but it helped players slowly accumulate cards to make better decks and keep them playing.

My point here is there are options to help F2P Hexers who may not be able to spend a lot of money on packs or plat to build up their libraries. Personally, I'm indifferent to the login rewards; getting rewarded just for showing up is kind of patronizing imo. But having 2 or 3 weekly quests where you can gain some commons and uncommons by putting forth effort (such as playing multiple pvp games, winning games with monoshard decks, etc.) does have its merit. If Crypto were to reverse their stance and give out freebies, I'd rather we have to work for it than just type in a password. And with lower-rarity cards to be gained, it wouldn't make older or cash shop players feel like they're losing out if they don't do the quests.

Gwaer
04-21-2015, 11:14 AM
I'm not personally a fan, but I know these sorts of things attract and keep more players than they push away. So something like it will probably eventually be a smart move, but no Pvp, platinum, etc. Only pve boosts/rewards

Unless it's a daily tournament reward, if you get something for buying into a tournament everyday I suppose that could be a Pvp thing.

israel.kendall
04-21-2015, 11:17 AM
I don't care one way or the other about login rewards personally. But how does it work if I never log out? I often leave HEX running on my PC for days at a time....

Vorpal
04-21-2015, 11:27 AM
I don't think you can give rewards that accrue 'per account' with a free account game. So login rewards are not good.

But you can get rewards just by logging in and playing already, just go to arena.


A minor, consumable, non-tradable, 12-hour expiration, PvE-only bonus perk sounds fine.

That's a lot of work to ensure your login reward isn't abuseable. Since they obviously are running way behind on development, I don't think it's worth their time to work on any kind of login reward.

Trynyty
04-21-2015, 11:34 AM
How about a monthly fee for login rewards?

Oli
04-21-2015, 11:36 AM
You get a free card and some equipment for beating the Tier1-boss in the arena too.
You can do this each day right after your login and earn your reward... :-)

Svenn
04-21-2015, 11:44 AM
I want to login to Hex because it's fun and I want to play it, not because I feel like I'm obligated to or I'll miss out on something.

This is the second time I've agreed with Thrawn on something in a couple days. Halp?!

GiantKiller2p
04-21-2015, 11:50 AM
I like the idea of daily login rewards, but not as much as I like the idea of a daily and/or weekly quest in the arena.

I don't turn down free stuff, but I like it better if I have to work for it a bit (which also makes it harder for botters/farmers to abuse it). Give me a quest to find and defeat a certain boss in the arena, or win a game in 4 turns, or complete a perfect tier on Tier 3, or somesuch. Then when I pull it off, give me a reward that's not earth-shattering but decent enough to make it worth a few tries, and I'll be a happy camper. Something like that would certainly encourage me to log in and play a few rounds, more often than I would otherwise.

israel.kendall
04-21-2015, 12:02 PM
If a login reward system is implemented, it would make more sense to do it after tablet support is in tho.

vickrpg
04-21-2015, 12:14 PM
1). Free random card for first login, first victory and third victory of the day. This encouraged logging in and actual playtime (although you could just play the AI for these victories, you were still playing).

2). Random weekly accomplishments to win additional cards, such as win X pvp games, win x games with a monofaction deck, beat opponent in X turns or less, etc. This encouraged community play and some form of socializing with strangers.

1) the point is that with systems that "encourage logging in" don't actually do so. All they do is make players who DON'T log in feel like they are missing out or falling if they don't play. it also widens the gap between new players and players who have been playing for a long time further.

2) I'm all for any kind of quest/achievement system, but the time limit has the same issues as #1 unless it's once a month or once a season, or set, or whatever huge time limit no longer feels like a "I must login today or lose it" system every day. To illustrate the difference: The sleeves in hearthstone for wining X ranked matches every month, good. The Daily quests for gold? bad. The daily quests that stay put for 3 days? better, but not Ideal. We can already gain a lot by just playing arena, HS has these systems as a cap to how much people can play, we don't need anything tied down to a time like that. Daily and even weekly timers make games feel like jobs.

...Not to mention that everything we earn can have real money value. Every extra fountain we have devalues the economy as a whole, especially when there's not enough sinks to balance them.



I like the idea of daily login rewards, but not as much as I like the idea of a daily and/or weekly quest in the arena.

I don't turn down free stuff, but I like it better if I have to work for it a bit (which also makes it harder for botters/farmers to abuse it). Give me a quest to find and defeat a certain boss in the arena, or win a game in 4 turns, or complete a perfect tier on Tier 3, or somesuch. Then when I pull it off, give me a reward that's not earth-shattering but decent enough to make it worth a few tries, and I'll be a happy camper. Something like that would certainly encourage me to log in and play a few rounds, more often than I would otherwise.

I like the idea of quests, it's the repeatability/time limits that are the issue here, at least for me. Still, Daily/weekly quests > daily/weekly free rewards. I would much rather see a new quest that is introduced "weekly" and is not repeatable, ever, but doesn't go away at the end of the week. Then another quest is added and now you have 2 separate, unrelated quests. THis would be more like "periodic content" than the "weekly quests" model in other games. Always add. Never miss out. Takes time to farm, gives new players help.

I would like to stress that I LOVE some of the ideas for content, and the ideas for rewards people have suggested here, I just think that the timed implementation will turn a lot of people off, myself included.

Svenn
04-21-2015, 12:32 PM
I would like to stress that I LOVE some of the ideas for content, and the ideas for rewards people have suggested here, I just think that the timed implementation will turn a lot of people off, myself included.

^ This is what it boils down to.

Time gated content/rewards is a lazy way to try and keep people logging in to your game, and it has the opposite effect on a lot of people. What we should be asking for is fun, replayable content. That's what should keep people playing... not a daily bribe.

Gwaer
04-21-2015, 12:37 PM
1) the point is that with systems that "encourage logging in" don't actually do so.

As much as we would all like this to be a true statement, it isn't. It draws more people in than it pushes away by a huge margin. It's kind of sickening. Skinner boxing at its most basic. I also disagree with the gap widening stance just because if interpreted that way achievement systems are also just a gap widener between new and older players. While both of these are actually a way for new players to receive a mandatory minimum viable product after X hours/days of gameplay regardless of skill.

Though I do somewhat agree with too many fountains devaluing product, that is actually a much more complex problem, if they have enough sinks more fountains can actually be good, so you don't end up with a deflationary currency. But it's definitely something they are mindful of.

vickrpg
04-21-2015, 12:49 PM
As much as we would all like this to be a true statement, it isn't. It draws more people in than it pushes away by a huge margin. It's kind of sickening. Skinner boxing at its most basic.
That is kind of sickening. but what I meant was it will not be attractive to a lot of our current player-base, and will have the opposite effect. I don't have/know the actual numbers, it's just an observation and opinion from the previous times I've seen this topic come up.


I also disagree with the gap widening stance just because if interpreted that way achievement systems are also just a gap widener between new and older players. While both of these are actually a way for new players to receive a mandatory minimum viable product after X hours/days of gameplay regardless of skill.
In this case I was specifically talking about Daily quests vs Achievements, Achievements, or quests that stay may be percieved as widening the gap, but if anyone can complete them at any time, there is almost infinite time to "catch up." While in the case of weekly/daily quests, if you missed a year of them, you can never, no matter how much you play every day, catch up to someone who has been playing longer than you, because you no longer have the ability to do the old content.


^ This is what it boils down to.

Time gated content/rewards is a lazy way to try and keep people logging in to your game, and it has the opposite effect on a lot of people. What we should be asking for is fun, replayable content. That's what should keep people playing... not a daily bribe.
All of the content that we have, both currently implemented and planned is replayable, that's the point. I think we need soe one-time achievements/quest more, and releasing them periodically (but not expiring them) is, IMHO, a good model for it.

Svenn
04-21-2015, 01:29 PM
All of the content that we have, both currently implemented and planned is replayable, that's the point. I think we need soe one-time achievements/quest more, and releasing them periodically (but not expiring them) is, IMHO, a good model for it.

In other words... release more content? ;) That's the plan.

But why one time? What's the advantage? Creating something that's only supposed to be done once is a LOT of man hours just for a one off thing.

N3rd4Christ
04-21-2015, 01:51 PM
No please no! I don't wanna feel obligated to play every day

funktion
04-21-2015, 02:38 PM
I'm sure someone has already said this. Login rewards don't make the game any more fun or interesting than it would be without it, they aren't altering the gameplay in any way. They're only there to create habits with the player base to keep them coming back, and in this regards to me they facilitate skinner box style systems.

The game should be able to stand on its own two feet. If I want to play the arena 10 times in one day and not log in tomorrow why should I be rewarded any less for the 2nd-10th time I run through it?

That said I understand why these systems work psychologically and why the games that employ them do so to so much success.

israel.kendall
04-21-2015, 02:54 PM
lol, it is "sickening" that a lot of people like logging in to something and getting rewards? or am I reading this wrong?

magic_gazz
04-21-2015, 03:10 PM
No.

Thanks.

Gwaer
04-21-2015, 03:22 PM
lol, it is "sickening" that a lot of people like logging in to something and getting rewards? or am I reading this wrong?

Yep.

nicosharp
04-21-2015, 03:22 PM
lol, it is "sickening" that a lot of people like logging in to something and getting rewards? or am I reading this wrong?
Would sound like the majority, if I am reading correctly, are really opposed to this idea. At least in general. But we are the good ole' boys of this community, and this topic has been approached and shot down several times already in the distant past.

Zophie
04-21-2015, 03:22 PM
For the sake of history here is a link to the previous thread suggesting Daily Quests we had last year, got about 305 replies and pretty much covered all points here:

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=37580 (remember READ ONLY DON'T NECRO)

---

Personally I don't care about daily login rewards/quests that give small bonuses, and I feel no pressure to do them generally. Off the top of my head Neverwinter and Heroes of the Storm have them, and a bunch of other games I play online, and I never get a bad feeling for missing any of them, but that's just me. I understand not everyone feels the same way about them, but I also understand the appeal to having them.

zadies
04-21-2015, 05:20 PM
Given everything in this game has a cash value that can be directly attached to it other then sleeves even 1 gold is paying someone to play the game other f2p games can get away with it because guess what you can't cash out of them without breaking the TOS.

Yoss
04-21-2015, 06:13 PM
This again? I have the same response as every time:

NO DAILIES!

(Lotus Garden is bad enough, and I still hope they change it to queue up for weekly harvesting or automatic harvesting.)

Zophie
04-21-2015, 06:15 PM
This again? I have the same response as every time:

NO DAILIES!

*squint* Hold on lemme get my magnifying glass out I'm not sure I can read that :p

KingGabriel
04-22-2015, 01:12 AM
For the sake of history here is a link to the previous thread suggesting Daily Quests we had last year, got about 305 replies and pretty much covered all points here:
(partial)
Kind of ironic that I said what I did in the thread and am now getting 2 lotus gardens :P

wasichu
04-22-2015, 06:14 AM
I have been thinking of ways to give proving grounds a much needed shot in the arm as I can play 3 to 4 matches of hearthstone on my phone before I ever get a match using random opponent in hex.

Why not do something similar to the way hearthstone does in form of daily quest as a way to earn small amounts of platinum. I couldn't get abused because its a once a day quest that may or may not be completed.

Like earn 30 plat ( I think 30 cents is a fair amount as I could save it over time to buy one pack or help me get in a draft or buy a junk rare etc.) i.e. win 3 times in proving grounds; or complete a perfect run in arena one day; and to promote different deck creativity, maybe a quest to summon 30 troops in proving grounds, or reach 75 life in a match, win a match after muligining to 4 cards. you get the point.

bootlace
04-22-2015, 06:23 AM
This is already being discussed here: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=42804

You definitely can't be given plat - that's currency that's bought and paid for by people and not meant to be given away for free. Hearthstone can afford to give a bunch of stuff away because it's a CCG and not a TCG so them giving stuff away doesn't impact the economy since, well, there is no economy.

I personally don't like the quests in HS, I'm forced to play a deck I don't want and might get beat by some deck that I actually wanted to play. Some of the interesting challenges you mentioned will probably be in the game in some form - either through double-backs or maybe some PvE quests etc.

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 06:38 AM
This topic has been discussed before. Would there be alot more people playing the game if there were daily quest rewards, absolutely.

It seems that Hex's business model is more akin to mtgo then hearthstone. I don't enjoy playing hearthstone, but the business model is probably one of the best for a online card game.

Many people on the forums believe that if you give things free to a f2p gamer then the economy will break. However, one can grind arena for gold to buy packs and the economy is fine. I think there needs to be a more well defined carrot for the f2p players then just grinding and later realisizing that they can buy packs for gold.

poizonous
04-22-2015, 07:25 AM
God these forums and people wanting things for free in a tcg. I'm honestly out of breath explaining the difference between TCG and CCG. every argument leads to "well HS does this and that" WHO CARES!!! it is a CCG, you can't expect hex to do it just because it works in hearthstone

best suggestion you will get from me. weekly challenges...

win 20 matches get a sleeve
play 50 matches get a playmat

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 07:34 AM
It is people like you poiz that will keep the game great. You do know that people can grind arena and buy packs with gold. The economy is fine.

poizonous
04-22-2015, 07:37 AM
It is people like you poiz that will keep the game great. You do know that people can grind arena and buy packs with gold. The economy is fine.

The Economy is only fine due to the small amount of ways for F2P players to get invested into the game. If you give them that same opportunity in multiple ways a day, come back and tell me the economy is still fine.

The more free stuff coming into the game, the lower the value of EVERYTHING gets

Khazrakh
04-22-2015, 07:55 AM
It is people like you poiz that will keep the game great. You do know that people can grind arena and buy packs with gold. The economy is fine.

You don't get the point here.
While it's true that they can buy packs with gold each and every of those packs has been paid for in plat. You don't buy the packs from CZE but from somebody else. In other words, you exchange plat for gold but no plat or boosters are created in the process. Everything has been paid for so it isn't influencing the worth of plat/boosters in any way.
Once you give out boosters/plat you increase the total numbers of both withough paying for it and that's why the economy would suffer - the worth of boosters/plat would be deflated.

That's the reason why you can't have plat, boosters or PvP cards as a login reward.

Of cause you could just hand out gold for loging in without hurting the plat economy, but doing so would devalue gold. You'd actually get less for doing an arena run or anything else that pays out gold in the game because you'd get less value for the same amount of gold.
Any form of login bonus helps the people who just log in and never play and hurts everybody who actually plays and that's why they are a bad idea.

TJTaylor
04-22-2015, 07:59 AM
This topic has been discussed before. Would there be alot more people playing the game if there were daily quest rewards, absolutely.

It seems that Hex's business model is more akin to mtgo then hearthstone. I don't enjoy playing hearthstone, but the business model is probably one of the best for a online card game.

Many people on the forums believe that if you give things free to a f2p gamer then the economy will break. However, one can grind arena for gold to buy packs and the economy is fine. I think there needs to be a more well defined carrot for the f2p players then just grinding and later realisizing that they can buy packs for gold.


Would they be actually playing? Or would they just be logging in for their reward and then promptly logging out again?

I can't speak for the entire gaming world but I know what I do. If I don't want to play a game that day, I'm not going to play it. I will log in to get my little bonus and then disconnect. However that turns it into a task. A chore to be done. That isn't fun and it certainly doesn't make me want to play any more than I already do.

Additionally, your comparison between playing the arena for gold and log-in rewards is a reach. One is a significant and important grind that trades time instead of cash. The other spits out free stuff just because one entered their password and clicked a button.

poizonous
04-22-2015, 08:02 AM
Well said Khaz. I am almost intrigued to have login rewards now, so all the F2P players can complain about gold not being worth enough now LOL

nicosharp
04-22-2015, 08:06 AM
MTG:O gives nothing out for free. Not even accounts. You have it a lot better here from a TCG perspective. Additionally, MTG:O already has economy issues with bots. Cards values are in many cases lower than pennies there, and you pay $4 per pack of 15. This game is already doing a lot of things better than both Hearthstone (ccg with lots of dailies and free), and MTG:O (bot ridden nothing for free TCG).

It's a tight rope walk to keep the economy thriving. I think Dailies will only hurt, but it's not to say mini-games like the Keep Defense, and other future add-ons will have inticing time-based rewards, but many will probably be ones you either pay for or work for. Not necessarily a "Daily" or "Weekly" thanks for "logging-in" reward.

wasichu
04-22-2015, 08:12 AM
Its not a log in reward, but a daily quest that's not gamebreaking as an incentive to use proving grounds, and to help new peeps get going. Most of the anti rewards peeps are backers who have it already going for them. I was a slackerbacker, but in I didn't get the codes due to some issue for 2 weeks after codes went out. I must say my hex experience sucked coming from alpha and having all the cards to trying to compete with a starter deck to all that had a card set going. This game needs new players and If I had to grind tier one and tier 2 to get the measly gold rewards in arena to buy a few commons I would probably give up n this game after a week. I would be curious as to how many players have made accounts and no longer log in. If the game only caters to the elite( those with a near playsets) then we will continue to have a dead proving grounds.

Even if I made multiple accounts (which I thought you would get banned for all coming from the same IP) The daily quest would still take work to complete. Therefore not easily farmed)

wasichu
04-22-2015, 08:36 AM
And 210 plat for completing a weeks worth of quest isn't going to crash the economy.
And grinding arena, thats laughable. Do you even know how much time it would take of actual gameplay before someone would gather up the necessary gold for a pack. Have you seen what a pack goes for in gold lately. I grind it every now and then just so I can open a couple of my uncommon chest. I like most peeps don't have 12 hours of free time to grind arena. And you don't make any worthy gold unless ya complete tiers 3 and 4. Peeps starting out arn't gonna grind that much time away of thier life.

The point of this game is to get players in and to stay. IMO we should be a one mill plus playing for as long as its been out and being world wide. Thier has got to be away to get new peeps ball rolling. If your a new guy you come in get a starter deck and do starter trials, give proving grounds a few trys and get stomped. Then go Ok let me do arena to get some more cards to compete. I spend a hour of grinding tier one and hopefully tier 2 for a hour and make 3000 gold and go look at what a pack cost in gold and think F this its gonna take 2 weeks just to get one pack.

There has got to be a better way to get more gold, and a way to earn plat as a FTP game. I mean since I been playing hearthstone for a week now since it is now a phone app, I have accumalated 2 packs doing quest, and 500 gold if I wanted to buy 5 more packs. I am close to wanting to pay the 25 bucks for all the goodies that come with Naxramas. The point is they have done a good job of getting my ball rolling and enticing me to put in money to gain more of the game. I just don't see that in Hex. Hex is you can tinker around with your free beginer stuff and make a choice to invest say 7 bucks to draft and hope you do well to start going infinite or feel that this game is sucking me dry. Heck If I look back at what I have spent on hex its been about 300 bucks since the start of Beta. Albiet I have about a 98 percent full playset of set one and 2. Thats a crapload of loot for a digital game, but I love Hex. That is why I am so passionate about its future and new players. And as of lately I log on and sit staring at waiting for player in proving grounds sometimes over a hour for some one to join. And adding a new set doesnt fix the issue of the new player experience. I am just passing issues I hear from alot of new players.

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 08:55 AM
I agree something has to be done to get new players and the current system really is not friendly to new players. How you do that with the Hex's business model is an extremely complex issue.

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 09:04 AM
Would they be actually playing? Or would they just be logging in for their reward and then promptly logging out again?

I can't speak for the entire gaming world but I know what I do. If I don't want to play a game that day, I'm not going to play it. I will log in to get my little bonus and then disconnect. However that turns it into a task. A chore to be done. That isn't fun and it certainly doesn't make me want to play any more than I already do.

Additionally, your comparison between playing the arena for gold and log-in rewards is a reach. One is a significant and important grind that trades time instead of cash. The other spits out free stuff just because one entered their password and clicked a button.

I have made no comparison about grinding arena for gold and log in rewards, I am saying the path for the new f2p player needs to be more well defined, at the least let them know they can buy packs for gold in the ah.

My original post was moved to this thread, I am not a fan of daily log in rewards. I was posting regarding a thread about daily quest rewards.

bootlace
04-22-2015, 09:06 AM
The whole PvE campaign will be tailored to new players to get 'their ball rolling'. What you see thus far with the Arena is only the tip of the iceberg. Imagine 40 dungeons, all of them giving different loot which has value in the AH, an RPG system that entices you to keep playing, and all of this for the unbeatable price of 0$ - and you can start to imagine this game will be F2P/new player friendly eventually I hope.

Even if Blizzard gave you all the cards in Hearthstone, you still wouldn't be able to sell it for more than 1 AA Baby Yeti (without breaking rules ofc).

Btw Naxx has less gameplay and card giveaway than a single run of Arena, which is free.

zadies
04-22-2015, 09:20 AM
And 210 plat for completing a weeks worth of quest isn't going to crash the economy.
And grinding arena, thats laughable. Do you even know how much time it would take of actual gameplay before someone would gather up the necessary gold for a pack. Have you seen what a pack goes for in gold lately. I grind it every now and then just so I can open a couple of my uncommon chest. I like most peeps don't have 12 hours of free time to grind arena. And you don't make any worthy gold unless ya complete tiers 3 and 4. Peeps starting out arn't gonna grind that much time away of thier life.


It takes about 13 arena clears to draft, it takes about 30-40 hours of grinding to get an arena deck going if you start with dwarves or orcs and know what you are doing, and really on a lucky run both of those decks can clear the arena regardless of adding cards. Both of those items are MUCH better then any free to play game in terms of returns once you actually bother to get the ball rolling.

Also while the arena is not aimed to be able to beat t1 decks it is also not aimed at being easily beaten by a complete newb. They had to carefully balance it so it was interesting to those who actually wanted to PvE and were backers before the campaign actually launched thinking that the area is what they mean for a new player experience when the campaign launches just seems a bit short sighted.

Also the f2p part of the game is PvE if you can transition from oh I can beat the arena occasionally to those arena wins getting you a draft that means the economy is working as intended.

The fact is if you enjoy the PvE f2p portion of the game playing the arena enough to gain access to the paid content is not work. If you do not enjoy the PvE portion of the game and are just trying to primarily PvP then maybe you should actually be paying for the PvP because it is the paid portion of the game.

poizonous
04-22-2015, 09:26 AM
And 210 plat for completing a weeks worth of quest isn't going to crash the economy.

210 plat x 50k-100k players a week = 100-200 thousand dollars worth of plat a week. You are not very smart to think that this wouldnt ruin the economy

You are pretty much asking for a free VIP program to log in daily

TJTaylor
04-22-2015, 09:42 AM
And 210 plat for completing a weeks worth of quest isn't going to crash the economy.
And grinding arena, thats laughable. Do you even know how much time it would take of actual gameplay before someone would gather up the necessary gold for a pack. Have you seen what a pack goes for in gold lately. I grind it every now and then just so I can open a couple of my uncommon chest. I like most peeps don't have 12 hours of free time to grind arena. And you don't make any worthy gold unless ya complete tiers 3 and 4. Peeps starting out arn't gonna grind that much time away of thier life.

The point of this game is to get players in and to stay. IMO we should be a one mill plus playing for as long as its been out and being world wide. Thier has got to be away to get new peeps ball rolling. If your a new guy you come in get a starter deck and do starter trials, give proving grounds a few trys and get stomped. Then go Ok let me do arena to get some more cards to compete. I spend a hour of grinding tier one and hopefully tier 2 for a hour and make 3000 gold and go look at what a pack cost in gold and think F this its gonna take 2 weeks just to get one pack.

There has got to be a better way to get more gold, and a way to earn plat as a FTP game. I mean since I been playing hearthstone for a week now since it is now a phone app, I have accumalated 2 packs doing quest, and 500 gold if I wanted to buy 5 more packs. I am close to wanting to pay the 25 bucks for all the goodies that come with Naxramas. The point is they have done a good job of getting my ball rolling and enticing me to put in money to gain more of the game. I just don't see that in Hex. Hex is you can tinker around with your free beginer stuff and make a choice to invest say 7 bucks to draft and hope you do well to start going infinite or feel that this game is sucking me dry. Heck If I look back at what I have spent on hex its been about 300 bucks since the start of Beta. Albiet I have about a 98 percent full playset of set one and 2. Thats a crapload of loot for a digital game, but I love Hex. That is why I am so passionate about its future and new players. And as of lately I log on and sit staring at waiting for player in proving grounds sometimes over a hour for some one to join. And adding a new set doesnt fix the issue of the new player experience. I am just passing issues I hear from alot of new players.

It appears two threads got merged into one. :D

If HEX Ent. increases the amount of gold that enters the system, the market will simply adjust and the gold price of packs will just increase along with it. It won't solve the problem that F2Players think it takes to long to convert gold into paid for PvP items. But really the problem isn't the time that must be spent grinding gold that is the issue. It is that new player expectations are wrong. They think it should be easier to play the PvP TCG for free. But the fact is that the PvP TCG in HEX is not meant and never has been meant to be free.

I really wish they had never used the F2P moniker because this is always going to be a problem. It also doesn't help the situation that, outside of arena, none of the actual F2P game is even in yet. But even after dungeons and raids get added, this will still come up over and over again unless HEX Ent does a much better job spelling out how it all works in HEX for new players.

There are only two ways for new players to get PvP cards, packs, and/or plat. They can pay for it with cash out of their wallet or they can grind out gold and trade that gold to people who paid cash for those items. Later on they can add a third option in selling their drafted cards and/or winnings for plat on the AH. One way or another, someone has to pay cash for those items to exist and that has been the plan since day one. There will be no free packs. There will be no free plat. That's not going to change. And, honestly, the fact that the gold grind option even exists for F2Players to dip into the PVP game is something they should be thankful for instead of complaining about. But again, that goes back to mistaken expectations about what HEX actually is and is not. The gold is meant to give them a taste of the PvP TCG, not give them the full 10 course meal.

People are very naïve indeed if they think they will have any measure of success playing this game F2P while still being competitive in constructed PvP, draft on a regular basis, or build entire playsets before sets rotate out of circulation. The only way to do that is going to be to pony up the cash.

poizonous
04-22-2015, 09:50 AM
well said TJ pretty much summarizes all my posts on these threads since beginning of time

Yoss
04-22-2015, 09:51 AM
People are very naïve indeed if they think they will have any measure of success playing this game F2P while still being competitive in constructed PvP, draft on a regular basis, or build entire playsets before sets rotate out of circulation. The only way to do that is going to be to pony up the cash.
... or be super amazingly awesome at drafting (after the long grind to earn your first draft with PvE).

Great post, TJT.

zadies
04-22-2015, 10:03 AM
A 15-30 hour investment in the f2p side of the game assuming you have a deck for it, and what turn your win condition hits on. ~13 arena clears gets you a draft currently... which in f2p game terms is actually a really good rate of return.

Getting a deck that can do that is currently the issue especially if you start shin'hare, but if the decks that could do that were cheaper then they currently are, then the amount of wins required to draft would increase, and you would have a much harder time continuing to draft after the first one by selling drafted cards which would also be worth a lot less.

The barrier of entry is higher then some f2p games in terms of initial grind but the actual resulting payout is much higher... tbh you are really better off spending 5 bucks up front then you are in almost any other game I can think of because in most f2p games the barriers get higher as you progress through them... this one really just has one barrier.

malloc31
04-22-2015, 10:26 AM
Back to the Daily log in thing.

I think it should be a very low priority either way. But things could be done in exciting ways that don't hurt the economy. For example if once every 24 hours you got a self buff that in your next PVE match you start with a random troop in play. where you had to use it in 24 hours so you can't accumulate them. It would be fun, let people try out some different cards, and have no lasting impact besides an occasional easy PVE win.

Svenn
04-22-2015, 10:53 AM
Here's a problem with daily stuff: people who like to play in bursts. Daily log ins and daily quests are incentive for people to log in every single day. However, a lot of people might like to (or only have the time to) log in and play say 3 or 4 days out of the week, but when they do they binge for long periods (lets say they put in 20 hours in 4 days). Someone else who happens to play about 2-3 hours every single night (14-20 hours for the week) is going to earn more free rewards. Why? That's pretty much a kick in the face of the person who can't play every single day. That's like telling him his time isn't as valuable just because it's in bursts instead of spread out.

Like I said before, daily systems are just a lazy, poorly designed system to try and get the daily login numbers higher. They might increase the number of daily logins, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll increase actual activity in the game at all. Lots of people (myself included) will log in, get the reward, and log out. And the more we do, the more we resent the game for making us do that to keep up.

Good design has people logging in daily because they want to play the game, not because there's an arbitrary reward system that they need to log in to collect on.

poizonous
04-22-2015, 11:11 AM
Lets look at a different aspect of daily logins from a MOBA stand point

DOTA 2 - no Daily log in rewards
SMITE - daily log in rewards (Even cash gems)
LoL - Daily Log in rewards

Dota 2 has more unique log ins weekly than Smite and LoL

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 11:23 AM
210 plat x 50k-100k players a week = 100-200 thousand dollars worth of plat a week. You are not very smart to think that this wouldnt ruin the economy

You are pretty much asking for a free VIP program to log in daily

I know the topic can get heated but saying things like "you are not very smart" does not help. The economy is not ruined given the fact that people can grind arena for packs. I have a feeling this will only increase when we get dungeons.

nicosharp
04-22-2015, 11:24 AM
There are only two ways for new players to get PvP cards, packs, and/or plat. They can pay for it with cash out of their wallet or they can grind out gold and trade that gold to people who paid cash for those items. Later on they can add a third option in selling their drafted cards and/or winnings for plat on the AH. One way or another, someone has to pay cash for those items to exist and that has been the plan since day one. There will be no free packs. There will be no free plat. That's not going to change. And, honestly, the fact that the gold grind option even exists for F2Players to dip into the PVP game is something they should be thankful for instead of complaining about. But again, that goes back to mistaken expectations about what HEX actually is and is not. The gold is meant to give them a taste of the PvP TCG, not give them the full 10 course meal.
Basically this - kudos, well said.

poizonous
04-22-2015, 11:26 AM
I know the topic can get heated but saying things like "you are not very smart" does not help. The economy is not ruined given the fact that people can grind arena for packs.

This statement has already been argued. The stuff people get from the arena has already been purchased by someone else, so nothing NEW is entering the economy.

And I actually edited it from what I originally said to make it "Not very smart", that is my polite side of the argument :P

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 11:28 AM
Who is asking for the full course meal as being free. It is kind of a straw man argument I hear all the time, but see maybe 1 percent of the community ask for it.

Blare731
04-22-2015, 11:29 AM
Lets look at a different aspect of daily logins from a MOBA stand point

DOTA 2 - no Daily log in rewards
SMITE - daily log in rewards (Even cash gems)
LoL - Daily Log in rewards

Dota 2 has more unique log ins weekly than Smite and LoL



I'm just curious, where are your numbers coming from? I don't want to debate the topic, just want to see that your not just making stuff up.

Also on a side note, idt anyone serious about LoL ever really cares about the first win of the day boost to ip. It's like a max of 150 ip when things cost upwards of 1350 to 6k ip. Everyone I know that plays and wants to earn ip just plays a lot. And that's coming from a guy who used to play every day for like 4-12 hours. Yes I did very well in college thank you :p



Edit: As for the argument of topic, I think TJ says it best. People should be glad there is an option to try the pvp content through pve. They shouldn't turn around and expect the full experience. Well said TJ.

Edit 2: And daily rewards can be FUN but idt that has to do with giving out prizes. I like the ideas someone said about boosting your next pve match or something.

poizonous
04-22-2015, 11:30 AM
@ Blare I play all 3 and they all show the statistics, either in game on or website

nicosharp
04-22-2015, 11:33 AM
Who is asking for the full course meal as being free. It is kind of a straw man argument I hear all the time, but see maybe 1 percent of the community ask for it.
Anyone that is asking for plat to be rewarded from the game through any means other than purchasing it or trading with other players for it, is.

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 11:35 AM
So anyone asking for some type of reward that might encompass plat. is asking to play the game completely for free, interesting.

zadies
04-22-2015, 11:35 AM
The thing is that none of the games I've seen with daily login rewards have had a way to cash out without breaking the ToS... this game does.

No they are asking literally to be paid to log into the game by the developer... this is completely different then begin paid to play the game by another player.

nicosharp
04-22-2015, 11:36 AM
So anyone asking for some type of reward that might encompass plat. is asking to play the game completely for free, interesting.
IMO yes. Plat, as many have mentioned, should only be purchased. Therefore the only individuals that can "reward" it are those that purchased it.

The way you word that is very 'baiting'. It of course does not mean all players that are rewarded plat are never going to pay a dime. It just ruins the economy as a whole to even think about it.

Blare731
04-22-2015, 11:40 AM
Honestly, why do you want to log in every day to claim some prize? Are you going to sit here and tell me that is fun?

I think we need to control the state of this thread and start limiting it to positive and constructive feedback on what ideas would be more or less fun to play around with as a daily sign in bonus. BUT, and this is important, doesn't give you anything of value.

That way, no one feels pressured to log in everyday, and it doesn't alter the games economy in any way.


I just think continuing down the road of mindlessly arguing the same points is going to just get this thread closed and then we SoL.

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 11:42 AM
So thinking about having daily/weekly quest rewards ruins the economy? It just seems like a boogyman that people are making a big deal out of if it is done within reason.

Mind you my original post dealt with quest rewards not daily log in

Zophie
04-22-2015, 11:53 AM
So thinking about having daily/weekly quest rewards ruins the economy? It just seems like a boogyman that people are making a big deal out of if it is done within reason.

I have no problem with daily/weekly quest rewards, but I think I'm in the minority. I play a lot of games with this type of feature and have never felt obligated to do them or felt like it was a chore I needed to complete or "I'd miss out".

The biggest example that stands out in my mind is Heroes of the Storm. Much like Hearthstone, they offer you a handful of objectives every day to play matches using certain roles to earn a little extra gold. This is mainly to encourage people to mix it up a bit and try out other heroes they might not have bothered trying normally. Personally I always end up playing what I like and ignore the quests completely, sometimes I happen to get a bump in gold for meeting their requirements, and many times I don't, but it really doesn't ever bother me. I get plenty of gold through normal gameplay, and I think if I was in a pinch it's nice that the option is there to do some dailies to help me out. Some of my friends end up doing the dailies more frequently when they do log in, but they've never complained about missing a day or two when they just happened to not play.

So all that being said, I don't have a problem with daily/weekly quests, I think they can be a nice bonus if implemented correctly, though many others seem to disagree, and that's fine too, everyone has their own preference.

nicosharp
04-22-2015, 11:53 AM
So thinking about having daily/weekly quest rewards ruins the economy? It just seems like a boogyman that people are making a big deal out of if it is done within reason.

Mind you my original post dealt with quest rewards not daily log in
You need to realize that it has nothing to do with the "boogeyman". It's all perception of Real Money Currency vs. Play Money Currency.
If you call "Gold" your play money currency - you reward "Gold" through your game.
If you call "Plat" your real money currency - you sell it for real money through your game, and don't reward it(devalue it's purchase price).

You can do whatever you want with your play money currency to try and get real money currency, its just that in-order for the game to keep a distinction between the two, they allow the players to facilitate trading at that level.

If you stop talking about quests and "rewards" in terms of Plat, then you can have whatever you want. Although, I think HEX/Cory has already made a few statements about not wanting Log-in rewards at all. (I'm sure there will be quests tied to PvE, but nothing with Plat rewards)

Blare731
04-22-2015, 12:08 PM
@ Pleague

Sorry it's a little hard to keep track after they merged the threads, but it's not like I'm saying "there is no debating it, there should be noooooo quests rewards / log rewards". I was just trying to say that some of us, possibly me included, were talking in circles instead of trying to help facilitate a solution.


@ Zophie

That's interesting to me, because even in games like HS where you get quests. I actually logged in every day to try to get quests that overlapped just so I would be more efficient with my time. And I generally wouldn't play at all unless i felt it was okay or a friend wanted to duel. That could also just be me in an extreme though.



In closing, all I'm saying is that there is no reason to pigeon hole rewards or a daily login scheme into giving some kind of gold/plat/ or card reward. I think it's much more worthwhile to think of things that don't have a market value but still give you a burst of fun for logging in or completing a daily quest. Something like, in your next non-dungeon, non-raid, PvE match start with an extra card or something.

Idk maybe, there will be some that only login to progress each day with that kind of reward, but I think that's much more negligible than giving free gold. Also it could encourage people that struggle with some content to login and try it at least once. So there also could be an upside?

nicosharp
04-22-2015, 12:14 PM
@ Plague
Sorry it's a little hard to keep track after they merged the threads, but it's not like I'm saying "there is no debating it, there should be noooooo quests rewards / log rewards". I was just trying to say that some of us, possibly me included, were talking in circles instead of trying to help facilitate a solution.

To second this - Plague - It would really be helpful that when you ask a question, and then a follow-up question, you keep it within the same context of the original question and address all aspects of the original question in your follow-up.

For reference - your posts below in the last 2 pages:
"Who is asking for the full course meal as being free. It is kind of a straw man argument I hear all the time, but see maybe 1 percent of the community ask for it."

Related to Plat

"So anyone asking for some type of reward that might encompass plat. is asking to play the game completely for free, interesting. "

Related to Plat

"So thinking about having daily/weekly quest rewards ruins the economy? It just seems like a boogyman that people are making a big deal out of if it is done within reason."

Suddenly not related to Plat.

"Mind you my original post dealt with quest rewards not daily log in"

Wants us to look back at god knows what...

Yoss
04-22-2015, 12:17 PM
I know, the first time you log in each day, Gozzog appears on the Home screen. All other times, he's not there. That's a daily I could live with. ;)

poizonous
04-22-2015, 12:21 PM
The best suggestion given to get back on the original topic would be, Log in and receive a random troop for your first arena run of the day, could even go as far as doing it as a progression type of thing, where day 7 you get a 1 time use Mercenary that is account bound (To not get abused for free currency)

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 12:23 PM
To second this - Plague - It would really be helpful that when you ask a question, and then a follow-up question, you keep it within the same context of the original question and address all aspects of the original question in your follow-up.

For reference - your posts below in the last 2 pages:
"Who is asking for the full course meal as being free. It is kind of a straw man argument I hear all the time, but see maybe 1 percent of the community ask for it."

Related to Plat

"So anyone asking for some type of reward that might encompass plat. is asking to play the game completely for free, interesting. "

Related to Plat

"So thinking about having daily/weekly quest rewards ruins the economy? It just seems like a boogyman that people are making a big deal out of if it is done within reason."

Suddenly not related to Plat.

"Mind you my original post dealt with quest rewards not daily log in"

Wants us to look back at god knows what...

I am just responding to points being made, some are related to plat some are not. I do need to do better quoting people, but I am on my phone and well I am not the most tech savy.

Sometimes I feel bad quoting people cause it feels like I am trying to shoot them down, when I am just making an argumemt.

Yoss
04-22-2015, 12:27 PM
The best suggestion given to get back on the original topic would be, Log in and receive a random troop for your first arena run of the day, could even go as far as doing it as a progression type of thing, where day 7 you get a 1 time use Mercenary that is account bound (To not get abused for free currency)

This one, while more palatable, is still a problem if it were to help you win on a Raid. If it were a boost that only worked on content you've already cleared, maybe, just maybe, it would be OK, but even then I'd still prefer no (meaningful) dailies. As I said jokingly (but semi-seriously) above, I'd be OK with cosmetic dailies, like your first match of every day turns all your cards to the AA version or the EA version but only for that match. If there will be dailies at all, I agree with whoever said they should be purely "fun" which to me means they must have zero mechanical/economic benefit in the game and should just be Easter egg kind of stuff.

nicosharp
04-22-2015, 12:32 PM
I am just responding to points being made, some are related to plat some are not. I do need to do better quoting people, but I am on my phone and well I am not the most tech savy.

Sometimes I feel bad quoting people cause it feels like I am trying to shoot them down, when I am just making an argumemt.
Yes, much more difficult on the phone. Understood. I know some of it's just for arguments sake, but it's hard to provide fair responses to some of your questions when certain layers of the question are removed in follow-up questions.

Blare731
04-22-2015, 12:33 PM
The best suggestion given to get back on the original topic would be, Log in and receive a random troop for your first arena run of the day, could even go as far as doing it as a progression type of thing, where day 7 you get a 1 time use Mercenary that is account bound (To not get abused for free currency)

Hmm, seven days is not the longest of streaks to keep up. But whenever you have "log in for this many days in a row" I feel like that is when people start feeling the most annoyed when they miss a day and start resenting the game. Instead maybe a system they have in place that is something like, "Log in for this many days total and get a free Merc!" and yeah account bound and such so you can't abuse the system. Other than that I really like it!


Edit:

@ Yoss: You've piqued my interest lol. I never thought of something like that, making your entire deck play as AA for a game would be really cool as well.


Edit 2: Also @ Yoss: I don't think you can really throw the game out of balance with a merc, especially if everyone has it and they design the merc correctly to just maximize fun.

Svenn
04-22-2015, 12:38 PM
The best suggestion given to get back on the original topic would be, Log in and receive a random troop for your first arena run of the day, could even go as far as doing it as a progression type of thing, where day 7 you get a 1 time use Mercenary that is account bound (To not get abused for free currency)

Again, why is the time of someone who plays 2-3 hours a day 7 days a week more valuable than someone who plays 20 hours in 2 days? The person who can spread their time out gets a free easy arena run a day? This is a terrible idea.

I have yet to get answers to 1) why people who play daily are rewarded more than people who binge and, more importantly, 2) why we should bother with a system solely designed around trying to bribe people to log in for a free thing instead of just having fun content that people WANT to log in to play.

For all the complaining I see from people about not having enough time to play, there sure are a lot of people trying to push for "forcing" people to play every single day.

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 12:38 PM
Yes, much more difficult on the phone. Understood. I know some of it's just for arguments sake, but it's hard to provide fair responses to some of your questions when certain layers of the question are removed in follow-up questions.

My argument is this. Daily/weekly quest rewards will not harm the economy if done right. Right now there is a way for f2p players to get packs by grinding gold and the economy is fine. Gold will probably increase in value once we can roll on chests.

I believe there needs to be a better way for the f2p player to see that there is a way to get packs by playing the arena. I am not sure how you would do that.

Zophie
04-22-2015, 12:39 PM
I know, the first time you log in each day, Gozzog appears on the Home screen. All other times, he's not there. That's a daily I could live with. ;)

yeah but what if you miss a day? He might take it personally and unfriend you :p

Yoss
04-22-2015, 12:41 PM
@ Yoss... You've piqued my interest lol. I never thought of something like that, making your entire deck play as AA for a game would be really cool as well.

"Piqued" is a great word. :)

Anyway, there's actually quite a lot they could do with cosmetics as periodic (better word than "daily") rewards, especially if they didn't advertise them. Imagine if you're just playing along and your Heat Wave suddenly gushes fire all over the board! So cool! Then you ask in chat what it is; it's a special crafted cosmetic boost for Heat Wave that you just randomly proc'd as your daily reward! Not only did you have fun, but now you thirst for that crafted item and you want to play MORE so you can earn it!

Svenn
04-22-2015, 12:42 PM
My argument is this. Daily/weekly quest rewards will not harm the economy if done right. Right now there is a way for f2p players to get packs by grinding gold and the economy is fine. Gold will probably increase in value once we can roll on chests.
For the 600th time, there is a HUGE difference between grinding gold to trade to ANOTHER PLAYER for a pack and GENERATING NEW PACKS/PLAT from nothing. The former promotes a healthy economy by promoting trading between players and the latter devalues the real money side of things.


I believe there needs to be a better way for the f2p player to see that there is a way to get packs by playing the arena. I am not sure how you would do that.
Arena is not the end of PvE. It's a mere scratch on the surface. It's not the full f2p experience. Trying to "fix" the f2p experience before the f2p experience is in the game is not a great idea.

nicosharp
04-22-2015, 12:44 PM
"Piqued" is a great word. :)

Anyway, there's actually quite a lot they could do with cosmetics as periodic (better word than "daily") rewards, especially if they didn't advertise them. Imagine if you're just playing along and your Heat Wave suddenly gushes fire all over the board! So cool! Then you ask in chat what it is; it's a special crafted cosmetic boost for Heat Wave that you just randomly proc'd as your daily reward! Not only did you have fun, but now you thirst for that crafted item and you want to play MORE so you can earn it!

This is completely fine and a great idea. The rewards/or random procs should create interest for Double-back Achievements/etc. or AA's that come with special benefits/art/animations/etc. A reward that has 0 effect on trade/economy and promotes playing is 100% fine.

Once double-backs are in and more pve/equipment, there will be so much to focus on play and do, that "rewards" for just logging in should never cross your mind.

poizonous
04-22-2015, 12:45 PM
Svenn, I am with you, I dont think there should be daily log in rewards, as all my posts here have shown, I was just trying to get topic back on track and that was the best suggestion made in this thread.

As for your question, I do believe that people that log in daily are more valued than the people who dont. It shows dedication... Sure there are some people who are unable to log in some days . I guess the counter argument to yours is why shouldn't the people that can log in every day get more than the people who cant log in every day? Now dont take this the wrong way, as I said I am on your side about no log in rewards, but rewards are earned, and logging in every day should deserve more rewards for games that support those systems

Svenn
04-22-2015, 12:50 PM
Svenn, I am with you, I dont think there should be daily log in rewards, as all my posts here have shown, I was just trying to get topic back on track and that was the best suggestion made in this thread.

As for your question, I do believe that people that log in daily are more valued than the people who dont. It shows dedication... Sure there are some people who are unable to log in some days . I guess the counter argument to yours is why shouldn't the people that can log in every day get more than the people who cant log in every day? Now dont take this the wrong way, as I said I am on your side about no log in rewards, but rewards are earned, and logging in every day should deserve more rewards for games that support those systems

The point is, they are playing the same (or more) amount of time. In fact, the person logging in 2-3 days a week might be binging 30 hours in those 2-3 days and the daily player does 1 hour a day and only hits 7 hours for the week. I'd argue that the binge player is more valuable. They are spending far more time in game. Why does the casual 1 hour a day person get more rewards?

In fact, if you want a time based reward (which I still think is a terrible idea even this way), I think the best system is total hours played and not any arbitrary real world time passed. Every 10 hours you play you get a reward. Doesn't matter if you log in daily for a couple hours, once a week for 15 hours, or somewhere in between. Then everyone is equally rewarded for time spent.

poizonous
04-22-2015, 12:53 PM
The problem with that system, is it favors the binge players. People able to play 1 game a day might have to wait 2 weeks for a reward, where as the binge player will get 5 rewards in 1 week.

There is truthfully only 1 middle ground. Non Concurrent progressive log in bonuses. Log in X days get X reward without having to be in a row

Svenn
04-22-2015, 12:57 PM
The problem with that system, is it favors the binge players. People able to play 1 game a day might have to wait 2 weeks for a reward, where as the binge player will get 5 rewards in 1 week.

There is truthfully only 1 middle ground. Non Concurrent progressive log in bonuses. Log in X days get X reward without having to be in a row
It favors people who PLAY the game based on their play time. Isn't that what we want to promote? The idea of daily logins is to get people playing the game more, right? Someone who logs in, gets their daily reward, and logs out is pretty worthless for anything other than saying "OMG LOOK AT OUR DAILY LOG IN NUMBERS!" Someone who logs in for 20 hours on a weekend is far more likely to spend money on the game, and offers a lot more to other players.

Either way, it's still lazy design to try and bribe people to play the game rather than just creating fun content that people WANT to play the game for.

I put nearly 1000 hours (and about $500) into Path of Exile (and I'm not done with it). I put hundreds/thousands of hours into Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, and lots of other MMOs. There are no daily logins in these games. I play them, and spend money, because they are fun. They don't need to bribe people to play.

Blare731
04-22-2015, 01:02 PM
Again, why is the time of someone who plays 2-3 hours a day 7 days a week more valuable than someone who plays 20 hours in 2 days? The person who can spread their time out gets a free easy arena run a day? This is a terrible idea.

I have yet to get answers to 1) why people who play daily are rewarded more than people who binge and, more importantly, 2) why we should bother with a system solely designed around trying to bribe people to log in for a free thing instead of just having fun content that people WANT to log in to play.

For all the complaining I see from people about not having enough time to play, there sure are a lot of people trying to push for "forcing" people to play every single day.

Maybe not arena run, i think first arena battle might be better but again I think it could be non-dungeon, non-raid PvE content game that you get your reward and it would be okay. I don't think a minimul reward like that would make someone angry they missed a day. But we could also go into full cosmetic rewards like Yoss is proposing. You can't ignore that.


As for your points I'll try my best to answer them,

1) If a system didn't reward you with some kind of market value, there is no difference from receiving that reward every day vs receiving that reward 2-3 times a week. It's just a matter of making it more fun for the first time you play the game for a bit. Whether that is a day, which is a normal minimum time period, or a couple days, to a week or more.

2) I'm trying to say that a system that allows you to use something with no market value is not a bribe, more so a fun way to experience the content once a day. It's not so much a trying to force people to play everyday, rather an extra bit of fun to enjoy the game with once a day. I don't see much wrong with something like that.

Also I am not complaining the game is not ALREADY fun, and I agree that most people just need to wait for when there are more things to do. But I would like to believe that in this discussion of log in rewards / daily quests, as a whole we are trying to make the game more fun, not force people to play when they don't want to.


Edit: Since you posted a couple more times while I was typing this, I guess I'll add that,

I agree that we may not need one. But I don't see the harm in putting in something that has no market value and just makes the game more fun. Whatever that may be.

Svenn
04-22-2015, 01:08 PM
Maybe not arena run, i think first arena battle might be better but again I think it could be non-dungeon, non-raid PvE content game that you get your reward and it would be okay. I don't think a minimul reward like that would make someone angry they missed a day. But we could also go into full cosmetic rewards like Yoss is proposing. You can't ignore that.
Non-dungeon/non-raid, and not arena... so practice games vs the AI? That's pretty much all the PvE content left. As for cosmetic stuff... I'd be fine with that, but would it actually draw any players? I think people would mostly just ignore it.


1) If a system didn't reward you with some kind of market value, there is no difference from receiving that reward every day vs receiving that reward 2-3 times a week. It's just a matter of making it more fun for the first time you play the game for a bit. Whether that is a day, which is a normal minimum time period, or a couple days, to a week or more.
These things don't make the game more fun, they are a bribe. If there is something that you want to add to make the game more fun... why add a time gate to it? Now you're telling people that they can only have this specific type of fun once a day.


2) I'm trying to say that a system that allows you to use something with no market value is not a bribe, more so a fun way to experience the content once a day. It's not so much a trying to force people to play everyday, rather an extra bit of fun to enjoy the game with once a day. I don't see much wrong with something like that.
See above answer. Why add a time gate to "fun" content? If it's fun, make it something that's just a part of the game... not something you can do once a day.


Also I am not complaining the game is not ALREADY fun, and I agree that most people just need to wait for when there are more things to do. But I would like to believe that in this discussion of log in rewards / daily quests, as a whole we are trying to make the game more fun, not force people to play when they don't want to.
The entire idea behind daily rewards is to force people to log more often. It's a cheap tactic used to increase daily log in numbers. There is no benefit to the player that couldn't be accomplished by removing the silly daily time limit from it.

Blare731
04-22-2015, 01:17 PM
Okay, I don't think I'm explaining something correctly. So instead let's try an example? Like Yoss suggested, the daily reward or quest reward, can be for the next PvE content (Btw PvE has a story, and I never said no Arena.), you get to use your deck and all the cards will play as their AA versions. I don't think their is anything wrong with that.

And before you say it, if you are thinking, "well people will just ignore it" than that may be true for you. But you cannot speak for everyone, and for those who won't ignore it, some might enjoy seeing all the alternate arts for a game for fun! If people can truly ignore it, then it obviously holds no value and no I don't think they should implement this as a feature. Obviously, there is alternate art for a reason and they want it to be special. But they could also let people have a taste of what it's like every so often.


So if there is anything you can say against that sort of thing, I'd like to hear those counterpoints.

zadies
04-22-2015, 01:18 PM
Your argument Sven is that it is only available that one way not a taste of something you can put effort into and earn... the daily login effect could really be a random preview of something you can earn.

It really depends on if you can earn the free features to make them permanent either through extended art or double back achievements or adding a cosmetic equipment slot making that one off taste of something something you can earn to have all of the time.


Now that it has turned from the developer actually paying someone to login I'm rather indifferent to the idea.

Svenn
04-22-2015, 01:27 PM
Okay, I don't think I'm explaining something correctly. So instead let's try an example? Like Yoss suggested, the daily reward or quest reward, can be for the next PvE content (Btw PvE has a story, and I never said no Arena.), you get to use your deck and all the cards will play as their AA versions. I don't think their is anything wrong with that.

And before you say it, if you are thinking, "well people will just ignore it" than that may be true for you. But you cannot speak for everyone, and for those who won't ignore it, some might enjoy seeing all the alternate arts for a game for fun! If people can truly ignore it, then it obviously holds no value and no I don't think they should implement this as a feature. Obviously, there is alternate art for a reason and they want it to be special. But they could also let people have a taste of what it's like every so often.


So if there is anything you can say against that sort of thing, I'd like to hear those counterpoints.
Again, there is no benefit to sticking it behind a time gate. In the example you used of an all AA match... how about instead of making it a reward for logging in each day you just make it part of the game? There's a couple better options:
1) Every PvE game you play has a random chance to trigger the "all AA". Now anyone can enjoy it, and potentially more than once a day.
2) You can buy a special item with gold that makes your next match an "all AA" match. One time use consumable. Anyone can earn/use it and it's not limited to once a day. It's a fun new thing for people to work towards if that's something they actually enjoy.

That's just a couple ways to take an idea, remove the crappy time-gate, and make it something to enhance the overall game instead of as a once a day "reward".

Blare731
04-22-2015, 01:32 PM
Again, there is no benefit to sticking it behind a time gate. In the example you used of an all AA match... how about instead of making it a reward for logging in each day you just make it part of the game? There's a couple better options:
1) Every PvE game you play has a random chance to trigger the "all AA". Now anyone can enjoy it, and potentially more than once a day.
2) You can buy a special item with gold that makes your next match an "all AA" match. One time use consumable. Anyone can earn/use it and it's not limited to once a day. It's a fun new thing for people to work towards if that's something they actually enjoy.

That's just a couple ways to take an idea, remove the crappy time-gate, and make it something to enhance the overall game instead of as a once a day "reward".

Okay, I see what your saying now. Those are both very interesting ideas, that I'd love to discuss further and until I come up with something better, I'll concede to you.

To expand on that, I think you may be right. Putting an arbitrary time gate on a feature, whether that's in days or hours, is much less appealing than just implementing the feature in another form.

Edit: Now you got me wanting to start a thread for an AA 1 time use money sink, or AA proc chance. Lmao

Yoss
04-22-2015, 01:43 PM
Again, there is no benefit to sticking it behind a time gate. In the example you used of an all AA match... how about instead of making it a reward for logging in each day you just make it part of the game? There's a couple better options:
1) Every PvE game you play has a random chance to trigger the "all AA". Now anyone can enjoy it, and potentially more than once a day.
2) You can buy a special item with gold that makes your next match an "all AA" match. One time use consumable. Anyone can earn/use it and it's not limited to once a day. It's a fun new thing for people to work towards if that's something they actually enjoy.

That's just a couple ways to take an idea, remove the crappy time-gate, and make it something to enhance the overall game instead of as a once a day "reward".
I like how you're thinking. Let me see if I can poke any holes...

Done as a daily, every player is for sure going to get the dose of fun, hopefully spurring them towards playing more. Casual players (in this context, that's those who book small amounts of time in game) are dosed the most as a % of time in game.

Done as a random proc, only those that are either lucky or spend lots of time in the game will get it. People who already play a lot are not the people a system like this should be targeting.

Svenn
04-22-2015, 01:54 PM
I like how you're thinking. Let me see if I can poke any holes...

Done as a daily, every player is for sure going to get the dose of fun, hopefully spurring them towards playing more. Casual players (in this context, that's those who book small amounts of time in game) are dosed the most as a % of time in game.

Done as a random proc, only those that are either lucky or spend lots of time in the game will get it. People who already play a lot are not the people a system like this should be targeting.
I don't disagree that as a random proc it would be something people that played more often would see. However, how much is a casual player really going to care about a random AA match daily? Not enough to make them log in for it. I think they'd be much more excited when they got the random proc. As a casual player, I'd be more excited when I randomly got something like that as a proc. I'd feel more special.

But going back some... daily rewards main purpose is to try and get more people to log in daily. Bribing them is a bad idea for a lot of reasons (promotes logging in just for a couple minutes for rewards, punishes people who can play a lot but only a few days a week, messes with economy) and adding "fun"/cosmetic daily rewards would either not be enough to make people log in daily or would be better served as being implemented without the time gate.

nicosharp
04-22-2015, 02:01 PM
I don't disagree that as a random proc it would be something people that played more often would see. However, how much is a casual player really going to care about a random AA match daily? Not enough to make them log in for it. I think they'd be much more excited when they got the random proc. As a casual player, I'd be more excited when I randomly got something like that as a proc. I'd feel more special.
You would be surprised. Not only do "casuals" spend money, but many impulsively spend. They may see a Double-back AA Heat Wave's animation, and instantly go to the Auction House and buy expensive AA Heat Wave's with Double-back unlocked.

All-in-All its a nice idea, and supports time-based triggers - not %chance triggers.

Zophie
04-22-2015, 02:16 PM
I don't necessarily think Hex needs this type of system, but just for an example of an existing game that uses non-concurrent daily login rewards take a look at Guild Wars 2: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Login_rewards

You basically follow a rewards track each day you log in, and it repeats the track every 28 days, but you don't lose your progress on the track if you miss a day, you just pick up where you left off next time you log in. Not sure what types of rewards would be best for this kind of system in Hex though, maybe small bags of gold or crafting materials or PVE buffs for the day, or maybe after so many rewards you get a random AA common or a draft ticket or something.

Svenn
04-22-2015, 02:20 PM
I don't necessarily think Hex needs this type of system, but just for an example of an existing game that uses non-concurrent daily login rewards take a look at Guild Wars 2: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Login_rewards

You basically follow a rewards track each day you log in, and it repeats the track every 28 days, but you don't lose your progress on the track if you miss a day, you just pick up where you left off next time you log in. Not sure what types of rewards would be best for this kind of system in Hex though, maybe small bags of gold or crafting materials or PVE buffs for the day, or maybe after so many rewards you get a random AA common or a draft ticket or something.

This plus daily quests are the exact reasons I quit GW2 after about 2 years of play. ;) Loved the game, but those systems were enough to make me stop playing completely.

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 02:21 PM
This plus daily quests are the exact reasons I quit GW2 after about 2 years of play. ;) Loved the game, but those systems were enough to make me stop playing completely.

It doesn't mean others might like the system. Hopefully when dungeons are in and chests are spinnable much of the conversation will be moot.

Blare731
04-22-2015, 02:23 PM
I don't disagree that as a random proc it would be something people that played more often would see. However, how much is a casual player really going to care about a random AA match daily? Not enough to make them log in for it. I think they'd be much more excited when they got the random proc. As a casual player, I'd be more excited when I randomly got something like that as a proc. I'd feel more special.

If anyone would be excited to see AA daily it would most certainly be casuals. Players that played a while that were committed to Hex, would still enjoy it, but I doubt they would care as much. It's really about inspiring someone to play.


But going back some... daily rewards main purpose is to try and get more people to log in daily. Bribing them is a bad idea for a lot of reasons (promotes logging in just for a couple minutes for rewards, punishes people who can play a lot but only a few days a week, messes with economy) and adding "fun"/cosmetic daily rewards would either not be enough to make people log in daily or would be better served as being implemented without the time gate.

Personally I think it is your negative view of the topic that makes you not want it so bad. Your using words like force and bribe, when I'm trying to promote ones like encourage or inspire. I don't think you can see how there can be some positives to a system like this done correctly. I've already conceded that it may not be the BEST way. But I think that it can still be up for debate as Yoss demonstrated, no idea is completely flawless. I just don't see why it can never be used for good.

As I asked before I think that we can all be constructive, even as we 'poke holes' in each others' ideas. For me I think Yoss makes the good point that, a system like this doesn't target players already playing a lot. It is to encourage people to try and play and see if they like it. You may call that a bribe, but I am of a different mindset and look at it as appealing to a wider audience. Some people, obviously not you, could find some joy in it. I would count myself among those people, and I think there are others that would as well. I think people like me and Yoss just want it done well, so it doesn't adversely affect that game.

Hell, maybe each day you got to play with AA cards or something and then there was ALSO things you could purchase or a random proc chance. Why can't their be both?

Edit: If there was both. People that logged in every day would ge to experience it. AS well as people that played a lot would have a higher chance of proccing it. It seems like the best of both worlds to me.

Zophie
04-22-2015, 02:23 PM
It doesn't mean others might not like the system. Hopefully when dungeons are in and chests are openable much of the conversation will be moot.

^ sorry had to fix, and I agree :)

zadies
04-22-2015, 02:29 PM
Hell, maybe each day you got to play with AA cards or something and then there was ALSO things you could purchase or a random proc chance. Why can't their be both?

Edit: If there was both. People that logged in every day would ge to experience it. AS well as people that played a lot would have a higher chance of proccing it. It seems like the best of both worlds to me.

Purchasing the ability to turn on aa whenever you feel like it devalues the AAs... randomly doing it once a month can bring to your attention how cool the AAs look so you want to go buy them.

Blare731
04-22-2015, 02:31 PM
Purchasing the ability to turn on aa whenever you feel like it devalues the AAs... randomly doing it once a month can bring to your attention how cool the AAs look so you want to go buy them.

Well, purchasing something that has a very high gold cost. Might also be a great gold sink. And actually drive the price of AA cards up, since it is so expensive to buy the potion or what ever it may be. But yeah it could also just be a proc and the daily log in reward that I think is a good balance between the two.

plaguedealer
04-22-2015, 02:32 PM
^ sorry had to fix, and I agree :)

Thanks I need all the help I can get.

Zophie
04-22-2015, 02:33 PM
I was just having a conversation with one of my friends about this topic and he reminded me that Marvel Heroes uses a daily login system that counts up from the first day you login with a reward track that extends out hundreds of days into the future, kind of like a Veteran reward system. There are some slightly larger rewards for reaching bigger milestones like unlocking a free hero after 300 days and stuff like that. They also don't make you lose progress if you miss any days, just pick up where you left off next time you log in.

Svenn
04-22-2015, 02:34 PM
It doesn't mean others might like the system. Hopefully when dungeons are in and chests are spinnable much of the conversation will be moot.

A system that pushes away people that spend thousands of dollars on the game is not a very good system...


If anyone would be excited to see AA daily it would most certainly be casuals. Players that played a while that were committed to Hex, would still enjoy it, but I doubt they would care as much. It's really about inspiring someone to play. If they logged in for an hour a day they would see it pretty often, probably more often than not. That would sort of desensitize them to the whole thing I think.




Personally I think it is your negative view of the topic that makes you not want it so bad. Your using words like force and bribe, when I'm trying to promote ones like encourage or inspire. I don't think you can see how there can be some positives to a system like this done correctly. I've already conceded that it may not be the BEST way. But I think that it can still be up for debate as Yoss demonstrated, no idea is completely flawless. I just don't see why it can never be used for good.

As I asked before I think that we can all be constructive, even as we 'poke holes' in each others' ideas. For me I think Yoss makes the good point that, a system like this doesn't target players already playing a lot. It is to encourage people to try and play and see if they like it. You may call that a bribe, but I am of a different mindset and look at it as appealing to a wider audience. Some people, obviously not you, could find some joy in it. I would count myself among those people, and I think there are others that would as well. I think people like me and Yoss just want it done well, so it doesn't adversely affect that game.

Hell, maybe each day you got to play with AA cards or something and then there was ALSO things you could purchase or a random proc chance. Why can't their be both?

It IS a bribe. What is the point of the system? The point is to get the number of daily log ins higher. How? By essentially paying a player with some special reward. That's the entire reasoning behind a daily system. You are time gating something in order to try and get people to log in on a daily basis. There's no other reason for making it a daily system versus some other method. From a designer perspective, it's a cheap and lazy way to get a higher daily login count. From a player perspective, it's a system giving me a drip feed of free stuff if I log in, even when I don't feel like it. Time gating is bad because it tells people when they should be playing the game. A player should be able to play when they want, not when the game tells them they should be playing.

Does anyone deny that fun content is/should be more of a reason to log in than any sort of daily login reward?

Blare731
04-22-2015, 02:43 PM
From a player perspective, it's a system giving me a drip feed of free stuff if I log in, even when I don't feel like it. Time gating is bad because it tells people when they should be playing the game.

What is it giving you that it makes you want to log in? You already said that you can ignore it. If you can ignore it, there are no pressures to log in. Then they are not forcing you to play. Therefor it is not a bribe, (edit: )because your not gaining anything of value in playing in any particular day.


Does anyone deny that fun content is/should be more of a reason to log in than any sort of daily login reward?

Is adding more content any less of a bribe by your standards? There are millions of people that play games that the content is gated in some way, shape, or form. Whether that be money, time, or achievements. Millions of people still play those games and consider it fun. Adding content and saying "You can only play this content if you pay for it" or "You can only play this content if you play for hours and hours for it to proc" is no more a bribe than "You can only play this content once a day".

Edit2 : cut some unnecessary words out. (no more a bribe in your book)

zadies
04-22-2015, 02:48 PM
Does anyone deny that fun content is/should be more of a reason to log in than any sort of daily login reward?

Yes but using the daily reward to promote exposure to something that can be permanently had with effort can actually give the really cool thing to everyone, and also encourage the person to play more because they want the really cool thing they just saw.

Also you would want a system like that time gated and rather random simply so it still felt like an achievement to earn permanent cool visual effect x.

Svenn
04-22-2015, 03:02 PM
What is it giving you that it makes you want to log in? You already said that you can ignore it. If you can ignore it, there are no pressures to log in. Then they are not forcing you to play. Therefor it is not a bribe.
The Bribe is a system that rewards you with items. Gold, plat, packs, cards, whatever. The cosmetic thing I don't have a problem with, but I don't think it fulfills the goals of a daily system.




Is adding more content any less of a bribe by your standards? There are millions of people that play games that the content is gated in some way, shape, or form. Whether that be money, time, or achievements. Millions of people still play those games and consider it fun. Adding content and saying "You can only play this content if you pay for it" or "You can only play this content if you play for hours and hours for it to proc" is no more a bribe in your book than "You can only play this content once a day".

"Hey, if you log in today we'll give you this thing for free" is different than "Here's some new content to play through, enjoy!" A daily log in reward is a bribe because it doesn't add any actual entertainment value, it's just giving you free shit. Content is the game itself. Giving someone more game versus giving them free items is not even close to the same thing.

"You can only play this content if you pay for it" is called buying a game. ;) That's not even close to time gating.

"You can only play this content if you play for hours and hours for it to proc"... that's part of gameplay. RNG is a part of game systems. It can be used in good ways and bad ways.

The main difference between all these things and time gating is that nothing else is trying to control when you play. They don't punish you because you don't conform to the game/developer's ideas of when you should be playing. A random chance for something to proc lets you play at any time and have that thing occur. If I play 10 hours in one day I have the same chance to proc that thing as someone who plays 1 hour for 10 days. Using real time in a game (except in very specific things, ie Animal Crossing) is an arbitrary system designed solely to manipulate a player into playing at certain times. That is the sole goal. Time gating doesn't add fun. Never has someone said "Man, I love how this game only lets me get this reward or do this thing once a day".

Svenn
04-22-2015, 03:08 PM
Also you would want a system like that time gated and rather random simply so it still felt like an achievement to earn permanent cool visual effect x.

The difference between random and daily is that I can play whenever I want and see it. Dailies tell me "You can only see this once a day", not matter how much you play. Thus, if I want to get/use/whatever the thing from the daily I have to log in at specific times. If it's random, I can log in any time I want and get it as many times as I want. The game isn't telling me "Okay, you got this already, come back in 24 hours".

Blare731
04-22-2015, 03:25 PM
The Bribe is a system that rewards you with items. Gold, plat, packs, cards, whatever. The cosmetic thing I don't have a problem with, but I don't think it fulfills the goals of a daily system.

I think it's been a long time now since someone has suggested those types of things. I've been arguing for daily rewards that don't have no market value. Which eliminates all those that you have a problem with. So I think for the sake of my sanity, I need to stop trying to argue this point. Can we agree for now, that unless someones provides an alternative, we are talking about a purely cosmetic or no market value daily system. That way, you don't have to keep saying that that is not fair, which I agree, and I don't have to keep pointing out that my solution does not have those flaws.


As for the rest, which sadly I'm tired of quoting everything haha, I see your points. Like before I do see that a time gate is different from others. And although MANY games use it purposefully to manage how often you play their game. Building through repetition a routine of always playing their games. I know the negatives a system like this could have. Also when I was talking about spending money, I wasn't talking about a game that you just buy flat out. I'm talking about the Call of Duties or ones like the F2P games that have multiple pay road blocks for content. Either way, every type of gate can have a negative impact on its player base.


I think what your missing, is that instead of criticizing the system that we all know to hate, and yes I do hate other time gated systems that are only there to force you to play content on their terms. I'm trying to see if there is a way to make that system not harmful, but helpful. Does that clarify things?


On a side note, there was a game I loved to play. It was a weapon smithing game that made you wait for your crafts to be finished. Each craft taking up a varying amount of table space, and you had limited table space, as well as each craft having a different amount of time associated with that material. As you used better materials, the time and table space increased. I actually ENJOYED waiting for crafts to finish because it felt more real than if I were to make something and it instantly would be finished. Albeit, there was another time gates in that system outside of crafting that pissed me off, and I missed a day of a 120 day consecutive log in that pissed me off. So eventually I stopped playing. But there are times, when waiting is fun. Plus when a game makes u wait, it is a multi-taskers dream. I play a lot of idle games for that reason. In fact I have one open as I'm typing this.


Edit: To clarify on what I want to do. Take your daily reward system and in all it's flaws.
Bad Daily Reward System:
Goal: Try to get players to play every day (Take out all the hate and bias you have and the goal, is actually pretty innocent by itself)
Reward: Gold/Plat/Cards (something of value)
Effect: Players feel forced to play everyday. Even if just to log on when you don't want to. Players end up resenting the game and stop playing. (Obviously this is worst case.) They feel forced because if they miss a single day, they are behind from all the people that did not. This also leads to people not wanting to play if they start much later than everyone else since they missed out on tons of free stuff.

Proposed Daily System:
Goal: Try to get players to play everyday (again it really is an innocent goal, you aspire to make a game that is good enough that players want to play everyday. In that game, you must have functions of your game that make it fun to do so.)
Reward: First game AA play or another non market value thing that is cool to have.
Hopeful Effect: Players are not forced anymore to play everyday since there is no value in logging in other than to play for fun. No new players are mad that old players got this bonus longer, because it doesn't give them a benefit. Also players get a chance to see the AA cards that they can get, and possibly aspire to get them so they always get to use them.


I hope that makes it much more clear, that I don't want the same system that, I think, we all hate.

Turtlewing
04-22-2015, 04:53 PM
Daily log in rewards exist to benefit the company that makes the game not the players of the game. That makes them something of a Faustian bargain at best.

I did like the suggestion a while back about a time and capacity gated consumable card production system (extrapolated from Spectral Lotus Garden). What's interesting about that (to me) is that consumable cards is a concept that I haven't really seen done well in a TCG before. I also like the idea of making Spectral Lotus Garden "less special" by making other more accessible cards that will compete for your limited garden slots. Done right it could make lotus gardens both more valuable (because owners sometimes farm other gardens lowering supply) and less of a sore spot for new players who missed out (they can farm other cards).

Turtlewing
04-22-2015, 05:05 PM
I hope that makes it much more clear, that I don't want the same system that, I think, we all hate.

I personally think the AA idea is awful.

1. I find it's a coin flip whether I like the AA or the standard art better, so I'd find it annoying when the game uses the AA of a card I prefer the standard art for.

2. It doesn't make game play any better nor does it really make loggin in each any more appealing.

On the whole It looks like a ham-fisted "look at this thing we want you to spend money getting" gimmick. It also seems like it either commits the devs to making AA of every card, or has a high chance of the player not seeing any AA's because there aren't any for the cards in their deck.

Something else cosmetic like a sleeve might be less of an issue. Especially if you can't get them another way (like a set of 30 day, 60 day, 90 day, 120 day, etc. sleeves rewarded once you've logged in on the requisite number of days) as an implementation of a veteran player type of "achievement".

Yoss
04-22-2015, 05:11 PM
Seems like you've moved on a bit, but...


Well, purchasing something that has a very high gold cost. Might also be a great gold sink. And actually drive the price of AA cards up, since it is so expensive to buy the potion or what ever it may be. But yeah it could also just be a proc and the daily log in reward that I think is a good balance between the two.

It would actually function as a soft price ceiling on how expensive the AA can get. If the cost to own the AA gets too high relative to the rental price, I'll just rent instead.

Blare731
04-22-2015, 08:28 PM
@ Turtlewing

It doesn't have to be AA, it's just something that I liked and didn't take the time to try and figure out something else that would be cool to experiment with. But I agree that there is a 50/50 chance I like the normal art better than the AA and there is no way they are planning an AA to every card. That would be insane so, yeah, its probably not the best example. But I'm sure we could come up with something else. It's the core concept that I'm trying to stress. So the sleeves seems like a good idea, and if I understand correctly, you mean like a total days logged in -and there could also be a total hours played reward as well- which I guess would be fine. But you haven't said that the daily log in was a bad idea, just that you didn't like the 'reward' for doing so. Is there something you think would fit nicely with the scheme I outlined?


@ Yoss I could see where that might be true, but you have to also remember that 'renting' is not permanent and only for 1 match, so the price of the card would have to be so grossly higher than the rent version that it would be worth it to use it when you wanted. I'm not talking like it only costs a couple thousand gold to buy it. It would have to be at least 50k, keep in mind it's every card in the deck, and it would probably be more than that. Either way, I think Turtlewing might be right, AA doesn't work so well because not every card has AA.

Patrigan
04-22-2015, 11:56 PM
Svenn, you make it sound like a daily system would push away all players who invest 1000s of dollars, while it might be just you and bring in twice the number of people willing to invest 1000s more, because they are reminded that they should log in daily. There's more people in the world than just you.

More on-topic:

The primary goal for a daily login reward is to spread the time people are playing, ensuring there's always someone online. This latter thing is currently an issue. A major one even. This has a bit to do with the walled gardens, but also because people binge play a lot during the weekends. I am not able to play in the weekends as much as I would like to, so my gaming time is limited to weekday evenings (GMT+1). I've had quite a few of my free weekly drafts already lost, due to simply not having enough players online to start a draft. Yes, a draft. Sat there for two hours waiting for enough people. Then I had to give up, because I didn't expect to be able to finish the tournament anymore. (and no, I should not be advertising, the game should be able to ensure I can play).

Playing spread is an issue and the best way to fix this is by making some content time-gated. Yes, there will be those that just login for the reward, but there will be plenty of others that login and then quickly play a couple of matches (the length of the tournaments is another issue, but async will fix that, hopefully). And no, more players is not a proper solution, because the majority will still be binge playing in the weekends.

So yes, many of you might not like it, but unless if someone finds a better solution, it will become a necessary evil. You will, otherwise, lose a big chunk of players that mostly play on weekdays, but quit due to "deadville". However, I am willing to see how things evolve once CZE does their big marketing push, but I actually hope for your sake that the issue then mostly remains, because otherwise the current population is not a good representation of the maximum population. If that's the case, things will still change against your wills...

Tarquin
04-23-2015, 01:25 AM
login rewards will make me hate the game, i dont want to get the feeling I'm forced to login like a wageslave.

Kamino72
04-23-2015, 04:46 AM
The game already rewards players in many ways to play:

1) You can "Gamble" already on PvP Chests - and win packs etc. for the gold you spend
2) You can already win Primal Packs for the packs you buy or win in tournaments
3) You can already win gold and cards/equipment in special encounters in the arena
4) You can trade your entire collection (except sleeves), and everything has value. This isn't Hearthstone or SolForge, or any other game that either doesn't allow trading, or has zero value for what is obtained.


Make an effort, start grinding or with a bankroll, and let Auction House sales be your daily rewards.

This.

Ream
04-23-2015, 06:48 AM
I don't will repeat me but, there more than "daily" login rewards, it can be also a "once per week" or "next login after X-hours played" :stormcloud:

Xenavire
04-23-2015, 07:27 AM
You know, instead of login rewards, I would like a rest system of some sort, similar to WoW. Rewards you for coming back, but doesn't punish you for taking a break.

Designing the system wouldn't be easy, but it would be the best possible incarnation of this sort of system.

Yoss
04-23-2015, 08:33 AM
"You feel normal."

Blare731
04-23-2015, 09:56 AM
After an 10 minutes of rest experience has been gained, Zoltog starts texting/calling/emailing you to come back and play "or there will be consequences!"


On a side note, Rest experience sounds like a good idea. But it also sounds like something they probably will implement when you are, you know, getting xp for your mercs and hero in the PvE storyline content haha.

Xenavire
04-23-2015, 10:05 AM
After an 10 minutes of rest experience has been gained, Zoltog starts texting/calling/emailing you to come back and play "or there will be consequences!"


On a side note, Rest experience sounds like a good idea. But it also sounds like something they probably will implement when you are, you know, getting xp for your mercs and hero in the PvE storyline content haha.

I don't think it would have to be limited to experience. The problem with stating that though is I don't know a fair way of spreading it to other aspects of the game. :p

Maybe a gold boost of some kind? Like for every hour you are offline, you get 1% more gold for X number of fights (was thinking maybe a tier in arena would be a good amount.) Obviously just pulling low numbers out of of the air as a brief example.

Would also be neat if there were some neat mercs that get a power boost if you have been offline for a while. Kind of like a subtle way of making people stop playing now and then (for health and safety reasons) and when they come back they have a little more power, or some unique ability or something.

Svenn
04-23-2015, 10:10 AM
Proposed Daily System:
Goal: Try to get players to play everyday (again it really is an innocent goal, you aspire to make a game that is good enough that players want to play everyday. In that game, you must have functions of your game that make it fun to do so.)

This is the flawed part, the entire goal of the system. Don't try and tell players when/how often to play. If your game is fun and players have the time, they WILL play every day. Trying to find a way to make them log in daily when they wouldn't otherwise is just a flawed idea. Let people enjoy gaming on their own time, at their own pace.


Svenn, you make it sound like a daily system would push away all players who invest 1000s of dollars, while it might be just you and bring in twice the number of people willing to invest 1000s more, because they are reminded that they should log in daily. There's more people in the world than just you.
I'm not talking about just me. Look at all the other people in this thread saying no to dailies. The people that need to be reminded to log in daily are generally not the type of people looking to invest thousands of dollars into the game. If it was so good they wouldn't need a reminder.



So yes, many of you might not like it, but unless if someone finds a better solution, it will become a necessary evil. You will, otherwise, lose a big chunk of players that mostly play on weekdays, but quit due to "deadville". However, I am willing to see how things evolve once CZE does their big marketing push, but I actually hope for your sake that the issue then mostly remains, because otherwise the current population is not a good representation of the maximum population. If that's the case, things will still change against your wills...
It's far from a "necessary evil". Plenty of games get along without daily login systems just fine, and have large amounts of players and plenty of people to play with. Besides, daily log in rewards are not going to get many people to actually play more than they otherwise would. It will get them to log in on days where they usually wouldn't, then log out shortly after getting the reward. Unless you tied it to a specific system, it's not going to have a huge increase in things like number of players queued for a draft.

incitfulmonk21
04-23-2015, 10:28 AM
I have to agree with at least Svenn's last post in that the game itself should be the reward system.

I myself seem to be in the minority on these forumns as I have invested quite a bit but am an extremely casual player. I would hate to see a daily reward system because then I feel i have to login or I lose out but I rarely have time to do so. This is why I use cash rather then time to progress.

Also on this subject guild progress where I get kicked because I can't log in daily, My progress tied to a guild, Ranking system where my rewards are tied to me having to play x number of games a day to stay ranked for a reward, and any other time gated nonsense that penalizes me for stepping away for a week or two. I don't need nor want a second job.

I realise not all of this is going to break my way and I certainly see the other side of things as a little something extra is always nice. I just prefer that the reward for logging in and playing HEX remain that you get to enjoy a game of HEX.

Oli
04-23-2015, 11:02 AM
I have to agree with at least Svenn's last post in that the game itself should be the reward system.

I myself seem to be in the minority on these forums as I have invested quite a bit but am an extremely casual player. I would hate to see a daily reward system because then I feel i have to login or I lose out but I rarely have time to do so. This is why I use cash rather then time to progress.

Same here. I really enjoy playing arena, backed as DC-tier, bought about 3500 platinum with cash and have purchased VIP as soon as it was possible (and did extend the VIP as I had the chance).
Daily logins killed MM-DoC for me... They are great as long as you can earn the rewards, but a single failed login is a really big letdown...

temporicide
04-23-2015, 11:28 AM
I myself seem to be in the minority on these forumns as I have invested quite a bit but am an extremely casual player. I would hate to see a daily reward system because then I feel i have to login or I lose out but I rarely have time to do so. This is why I use cash rather then time to progress.

I'm in the same boat as well.

I used to play Hearthstone regularly, but I've gotten burned out on the fact that the only efficient way to get more cards, without buying them with real money, is to log in regularly complete daily quests. What makes it even worse is that many of the quests require winning games (not just playing) with specific classes, when I only have 2-3 decks that I actually enjoy playing, and games against the AI don't count.

What I miss most about the games of yesteryear is the ability to play as much, or as little, as I want, without missing out on something because I choose to play 7 hours on Saturday instead of 1 hour every day.

Mr.Funsocks
04-23-2015, 01:18 PM
Login rewards are a no. Both from me, and I seem to recall Cory saying he hated them too.

Xenavire
04-23-2015, 01:26 PM
I'd like to know where Cory stands on rest bonuses. I feel like it might be the best fit if this ever was a thing.

Mr.Funsocks
04-23-2015, 01:29 PM
I really do think WoW's rest system was a great introduction into the genre of online gaming... just a little "Hey, welcome back from a break, have a cookie", but not enough to be worth gaming it intensely. And it rewarded leveling multiple alts, which is how I like to play ;)

Don't know how it would look in Hex, partially because we don't know how/if there will be character "leveling" with XP points of some sort.

Xenavire
04-23-2015, 01:34 PM
I really do think WoW's rest system was a great introduction into the genre of online gaming... just a little "Hey, welcome back from a break, have a cookie", but not enough to be worth gaming it intensely. And it rewarded leveling multiple alts, which is how I like to play ;)

Don't know how it would look in Hex, partially because we don't know how/if there will be character "leveling" with XP points of some sort.

Yeah, this is the big catch to me. Without a clear idea of how the PvE systems work, we have no way to apply the idea.

So maybe we can hint at it and if they like it, and it fits, we will see it. I know I would enjoy some form of rest instead of standard login rewards. Just hope it fits. :p

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 01:45 PM
I'd rather have a charge up system, the longer you play in one sitting the better the bonuses! Rest is for the weak. Forget people with families and obligations, reward those of us with all the free time.

Xenavire
04-23-2015, 02:09 PM
I'd rather have a charge up system, the longer you play in one sitting the better the bonuses! Rest is for the weak. Forget people with families and obligations, reward those of us with all the free time.

Or do both!... Somehow. :p

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 02:53 PM
Sure, I could see that, while you're gone the meter charges one way, and gives a bonus, while you play it charges the other way/cancels out then gives a different bonus! =P

Yoss
04-23-2015, 02:58 PM
I don't need nor want a second job.
+1 (Please change the way Lotus Garden harvests!)

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 04:43 PM
-1 (canceled out yoss)

Diesbudt
04-23-2015, 04:51 PM
+0 Neutral Ground

Xenavire
04-23-2015, 04:51 PM
x1 confused person.

Zophie
04-23-2015, 05:28 PM
-1 (canceled out yoss)

I was thinking of a clever way to say that I agree with Gwaer, and then I started thinking of the points and negative points and then somehow my mind thought about The Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_%28mind_game%29)... and, well... I just lost the game.

Also I agree with Gwaer.

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 05:30 PM
It doesn't matter now, we were at 0 and then xenavire started multiplying, so we're stuck at 0 forever now.

Blare731
04-23-2015, 06:17 PM
Well we definitely know that we will be leveling our heroes and mercs. So a rest system may already be planned.

Scroll to the customize your character part:
https://hextcg.com/game/champion/

Zophie
04-23-2015, 06:30 PM
Well we definitely know that we will be leveling our heroes and mercs. So a rest system may already be planned.

Scroll to the customize your character part:
https://hextcg.com/game/champion/

As much as I'd love for all that to be reliable information it's quite probable that much of that has changed in development and we need to wait for more accurate details when they get closer to actually releasing these features. Granted, it's also possible it's all correct as is, but just take it with a grain of salt.

Mr.Funsocks
04-24-2015, 05:57 AM
+ i

NOW HOW'RE YOU GOING TO ADD IT UP? bOOM!

Blare731
04-24-2015, 09:46 AM
As much as I'd love for all that to be reliable information it's quite probable that much of that has changed in development and we need to wait for more accurate details when they get closer to actually releasing these features. Granted, it's also possible it's all correct as is, but just take it with a grain of salt.

Why would it not be reliable?

As far as I'm aware of, they haven't ever said they weren't going to make a feature that they promised before.

nicosharp
04-24-2015, 09:51 AM
Wow, this thread is still going??? We need a Friday update fast.

zadies
04-24-2015, 09:52 AM
At one point they announced they were going to nix champion leveling outside dungeons replace it with keep leveling and then have a champion leveling system inside dungeons that reset when you left it ala mobas... the last interview with Cory said they nixed that idea but didn't go into details... so the link you posted was nixed when they announced the moba leveling scheme.

noragar
04-24-2015, 10:02 AM
I don't understand this rest bonus idea. The way it's described, it sounds like a bonus that's applied if you haven't played in a certain amount of time? Why would anyone want to encourage people to not play?

Zophie
04-24-2015, 10:09 AM
I don't understand this rest bonus idea. The way it's described, it sounds like a bonus that's applied if you haven't played in a certain amount of time? Why would anyone want to encourage people to not play?

They wouldn't be, just making it slightly easier for people that can't/don't play regularly, and giving them more reason to come back if they felt like they were missing out. If you played regularly you'd still be earning more than someone who didn't play and had to take advantage of Rest bonuses.

Blare731
04-24-2015, 10:19 AM
At one point they announced they were going to nix champion leveling outside dungeons replace it with keep leveling and then have a champion leveling system inside dungeons that reset when you left it ala mobas... the last interview with Cory said they nixed that idea but didn't go into details... so the link you posted was nixed when they announced the moba leveling scheme.

Hmm that's interesting. I haven't looked into all the interviews I guess. But even if that were true, they are still planning some kind of leveling outside of the dungeons/raids. Which could then benefit from a rest system.

P.S where do you guys find these interviews?

noragar
04-24-2015, 10:46 AM
One of the major objections to login bonuses that I'm seeing is that people don't want it dictated to them when and how they should play to optimize their return. It seems rest bonuses would be doing exactly the same thing.

Consider the example posted yesterday


What I miss most about the games of yesteryear is the ability to play as much, or as little, as I want, without missing out on something because I choose to play 7 hours on Saturday instead of 1 hour every day.

Assume normal play gives an earning rate of 10 plat/hour. Login bonus gives 1 plat on the first login each day. Rest bonus gives a 10% boost in earnings for your first hour of play if you haven't played in the last 12 hours.

Then someone who logs in for one hour every day for 7 days would earn:

With no bonuses: 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 = 70
With Login bonus: 10+1, 10+1, 10+1, 10+1, 10+1, 10+1, 10+1 = 77
With Rest Bonus: 10*1.1, 10*1.1, 10*1.1, 10*1.1, 10*1.1, 10*1.1, 10*1.1 = 77

Someone who logs in once on the weekend and plays for 7 hours earns:

With no bonuses: 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 70 = 70
With Login bonus: 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 70+1 = 71
With Rest bonus: 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1*10*1.1 + 6*10*1.0 = 71

Under this setup, the rest bonus is exactly equivalent to the login bonus. With different setups, the numbers could be tweaked so that certain playstyles will come out ahead of other playstyles, but the bottom line is that either way, the playstyle that optimizes our return is being dictated to us by the system that's in place.

Personally, I don't have a strong preference for or against login bonuses, but for consistency sake, I would think that anyone who strongly opposes Login bonuses should also strongly oppose Rest bonuses.

Svenn
04-24-2015, 11:32 AM
*snip*

That's not a rest bonus. A rest bonus is a cumulative bonus accrued for the time you are not playing, which adds up each day, not resets daily. If you are offline for X hours then when you come on you have X hours worth of rested exp. It doesn't matter if you log in daily, once every 2 days, or once every 2 weeks. You are rewarded for how many hours you spent NOT playing the game (up to a cap, of course, so you have to log in to spend it every so often).

If you log in for 1 hour a day you get 23 hours of rest bonus per day. Over the course of a week you've played 7 hours and earned 161 hours of rest bonus.

If you log in for 7 hours once a week you've earned 161 hours of rest bonus and played 7 hours. Identical to someone who played the same amount of time as you at different intervals.

Rest bonus is something of a catch up mechanic for people who can't play as often. The idea is that if I can play 10 hours a day and you can play 5, well then you'll have 5 more rested hours worth of bonus. However, this is set so that 5 hours of rested bonus is less than you would have earned if you had just played those 5 hours (to not incentivize NOT playing the game). So, in my 10 hours I will progress farther than your 5 hours with 5 hours of bonus... but your bonus will put you at something like 2-3 hours behind instead of 5 hours behind.

All that being said, I have no problem with a rest bonus done this way. Players who log in at different intervals than me are not better off than I am with a rest system. We are on equal footing with equal play time, no matter when we play. I don't think it's the best system, but it's not an unfair system.

noragar
04-24-2015, 12:32 PM
Thanks for the explanation. I figured there must have been something I was missing.


Rest bonus is something of a catch up mechanic for people who can't play as often. The idea is that if I can play 10 hours a day and you can play 5, well then you'll have 5 more rested hours worth of bonus. However, this is set so that 5 hours of rested bonus is less than you would have earned if you had just played those 5 hours (to not incentivize NOT playing the game). So, in my 10 hours I will progress farther than your 5 hours with 5 hours of bonus... but your bonus will put you at something like 2-3 hours behind instead of 5 hours behind.


Now suppose I'm playing with my finely tuned T1 deck with all the legendaries and equipment that I want and can clear the Arena in 1 hour. You're playing with your starter deck and it takes you 5 hours to clear the arena (or to get the loot equivalent of clearing the arena once after factoring in restarts).

In my five hours, I clear the arena 5 times. In your 10 hours, you clear the arena 2 times, so you're 3 arena clears worth of loot behind me. If we add in a Rest bonus, you'll be even further behind.

You say you don't want to feel obligated to login every day and feel like you're falling behind if you're not able to. I'd prefer that over feeling like I have to maximize my efficiency every minute that I'm logged on. At times, I want to make a few casual arena runs while I'm watching TV, and it might take me twice as long as normal to do it. Or experiment with a deck that's not as fast. Or browse my collection and brew decks in the client instead of logging off and doing it offline. Or take a break to answer a phone call or make dinner without having to log off. If there were rest bonuses, I'd feel the constant pressure to not do any of those things because I'd be falling behind as my rest bonus ticked away.

I guess it comes down to whether there's a particular behavior CZE wants to encourage. If there is, one method to do it would be to put in a bonus which incentivizes that behavior. If there's not, then probably simplest just to not have bonuses at all.

Svenn
04-24-2015, 12:48 PM
Thanks for the explanation. I figured there must have been something I was missing.



Now suppose I'm playing with my finely tuned T1 deck with all the legendaries and equipment that I want and can clear the Arena in 1 hour. You're playing with your starter deck and it takes you 5 hours to clear the arena (or to get the loot equivalent of clearing the arena once after factoring in restarts).

In my five hours, I clear the arena 5 times. In your 10 hours, you clear the arena 2 times, so you're 3 arena clears worth of loot behind me. If we add in a Rest bonus, you'll be even further behind.

You say you don't want to feel obligated to login every day and feel like you're falling behind if you're not able to. I'd prefer that over feeling like I have to maximize my efficiency every minute that I'm logged on. At times, I want to make a few casual arena runs while I'm watching TV, and it might take me twice as long as normal to do it. Or experiment with a deck that's not as fast. Or browse my collection and brew decks in the client instead of logging off and doing it offline. Or take a break to answer a phone call or make dinner without having to log off. If there were rest bonuses, I'd feel the constant pressure to not do any of those things because I'd be falling behind as my rest bonus ticked away.

I guess it comes down to whether there's a particular behavior CZE wants to encourage. If there is, one method to do it would be to put in a bonus which incentivizes that behavior. If there's not, then probably simplest just to not have bonuses at all.
So, the other part I left out is that the rested bonus is usually not something that you need to min/max because the bonus itself is usually a flat amount, not an actual time bonus.

So, for an experience based system like your typical MMO (depending on Hex and how they implement exp it could work like this) it's something like for every 1 hour you are offline you gain a Rest Bonus of 1%. The bonus itself is that you earn double experience up until you've achieved 1% of your next level. If you're offline for 5 hours, you come back and you get double exp until you've gained 5% of the progress towards the next level. It doesn't matter if it takes you 10 minutes or 6 hours to get that 5% bonus, it's a flat amount and you get it either way. No efficiency or min/maxing required for it.

Blare731
04-25-2015, 10:50 AM
So, the other part I left out is that the rested bonus is usually not something that you need to min/max because the bonus itself is usually a flat amount, not an actual time bonus.

So, for an experience based system like your typical MMO (depending on Hex and how they implement exp it could work like this) it's something like for every 1 hour you are offline you gain a Rest Bonus of 1%. The bonus itself is that you earn double experience up until you've achieved 1% of your next level. If you're offline for 5 hours, you come back and you get double exp until you've gained 5% of the progress towards the next level. It doesn't matter if it takes you 10 minutes or 6 hours to get that 5% bonus, it's a flat amount and you get it either way. No efficiency or min/maxing required for it.

I think noragar wasn't looking at the system in a xp sense, since there is no xp system in place right now. He was looking at it in terms of extra rewards during rest or something. But a system that gives you more gold/cards from arena, I wouldn't consider a rest system. That's why I mentioned that it may already be planned if/when they decide to introduce more pve content where you level.

Mr.Funsocks
04-25-2015, 05:48 PM
Kind of why this discussion is pointless atm - without any idea what kind of leveling there will be, we can't really describe how we'd like to see bonuses work with it.

zadies
04-26-2015, 03:39 PM
A rest system that effects xp would have to be 1-5% unless it was multiplicative with the guild leader xp buff. if it was simply additive or a replacement of the guild leader xp buff that might make the buff seem like a joke. The extra packs given out were the equivalent of one set of collector aa cards.

KingGabriel
04-26-2015, 07:09 PM
Hmm that's interesting. I haven't looked into all the interviews I guess. But even if that were true, they are still planning some kind of leveling outside of the dungeons/raids. Which could then benefit from a rest system.

P.S where do you guys find these interviews?
Subreddit is pretty decent for that ;)

Vorpal
04-27-2015, 09:28 AM
In general I do not think login rewards are a good idea when you can create free accounts. Sure you could task a team of guys to design an intricate system that can't be exploited...but is it really worth the time?