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Khazrakh
04-23-2015, 01:47 AM
This is something I've been thinking about for some time and that I'd really like to share with you folks. Just in advance, please excuse my bad English, writing up a longer text is somewhat hard if you aren't used to it anymore ;)
Anway, here it is:

Let's introduce Timewarp Thursday! The idea behind this is to have an additional draft queue for a single day every now and then where we get to play one of the old draft formats. Since we are only in set 2 right now there obviously aren't that many choices yet, but I still think it would be a fun thing to do once every month. Once we get more and more sets this could be done more often and maybe someday in the future it could be every (Timewarp) Thursday.

So how would it work? As far as we know it's super easy for CZE to set up different drafting queues and assign product to it. So we'd just have a queue for 24h where the format is 1-1-1. Next month it could be 2-2-2. And while we wait for more sets to come, why not have 2-1-2 or even 1-1-2 for a day? It wouldn't be something permanent so you can try some silly stuff every now and then.

I think all sides would gain something from that:

- First of all, it would be something new to do, even if it's actually something old like 1-1-1. Everything that helps to keep up or even increase interest is good.
- People that weren't around when the format was played get to try it out once or twice.
- Veterans get to dip back into the "good old times". Most of us were probably burned out on 1-1-1 when set 2 hit, but after some months I know I'd have a blast giving it another go.
- Since it's a once in a month thing I'd guess there would be a lot of players that would want to give it a shot, increasing the number of drafts played that day. More drafts = more plat spent = more money to CZE = win
- It also might increase demand for older set boosters that aren't usually drafted anymore, increasing the value of left over boosters from older sets.

The only con I see right now would be the point that the additional queue would split up the community. But since it would be a once in a month thing for now I feel like that's something that could be accepted.

All in all I think introducing Timewarp Thursday would offer quite some value to the community and CZE alike without costing any ressources to get it going.

What do you guys think :)?

poizonous
04-23-2015, 02:09 AM
I love the idea but classifying to 1 day in the week seems less enjoyable. Unless CZE has intentions on not bringing back older draft formats in the future, I know currently their reason being that the playerbase isnt big enough to split the draft queues. This could be a weekly rotation of old formats, which would be more feasible so everyone can participate

Patrigan
04-23-2015, 04:11 AM
There is a second reason that was brought up before by some players. I'll say it now, even though I personally disagree with the statement.

Such an event would either reduce the value of cards in that set, if the players can keep the cards, or won't generate enough interest if it's a phantom draft.

I personally love the idea and I hope CZE will do it more than just once per month.

Khazrakh
04-23-2015, 04:17 AM
There is a second reason that was brought up before by some players. I'll say it now, even though I personally disagree with the statement.

Such an event would either reduce the value of cards in that set, if the players can keep the cards, or won't generate enough interest if it's a phantom draft.

I personally love the idea and I hope CZE will do it more than just once per month.

I don't see how that would devalue the cards honestly.
Just have it so that you have to bring your boosters and can't enter by just paying plat. So if the set isn't in print anymore you'll have to either have some boosters left or buy them from the AH. If it is still in print you could just go ahead and buy more boosters anyway :)

Personally I'd love to have it happen once every week but I think at the current stage it would be too much to have 1-1-1 every other week.

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 07:25 AM
I love love love this idea.

Tazelbain
04-23-2015, 07:31 AM
Love this idea. I miss 1-1-1. And we have 2 old formats 1-1-1 and 2-2-2.

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 07:36 AM
I'm not in love with the name so much. But I like everything else. Even running odd formats that we never saw. 1-2-1 1-1-2 2-1-1 etc. Could really switch up the draft queues when they're running a bit stale. I don't think it should be around early on in a new set release. But 2-3 months into the 4 month cycle it might be cool to run multi-day long queues of various changed up formats.

Khazrakh
04-23-2015, 08:04 AM
I'd be willing to give up on the name for the sake of the good cause!

nicosharp
04-23-2015, 08:12 AM
I love the idea, with 1 stipulation: the format never provides packs no longer selling in the store or formats no longer in print.

The name should be: Format Flashback week.
It should be a week long maybe quarterly. The format could either be randomly assigned when the queue pops or it could rotate on either a set schedule or after each queue fires.

It's a good idea and allows some newer players in the future a diversified and fun experience. But should be a fairly rare event.

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 08:18 AM
I agree nicosharp. Though I like the focus on alternate formats as well as past formats.

nicosharp
04-23-2015, 08:22 AM
I agree nicosharp. Though I like the focus on alternate formats as well as past formats.

If the format is random, perhaps in print packs are opened at random. So you could get a pack of set 1, a pack of set 3, and a pack of set 4. A lot of options for hex to mess around with if they are comfortable with the play experience that would provide.

If this happened the entry fee would be hard to stomach as it would have to be flat fee not including packs. :(
Maybe a lot more thought here, but I love the concepts

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 08:39 AM
They should definitely stick with in print sets, and in print rewards, require the packs on entry/or equivalent plat as purchased from the store, and payout based on the number of a particular set of packs the format required.

If they drafts were truly randomly generated when they fire, which is a cool idea... I think the entry fee would be too onerous. You're right in that sort of format where you don't know what you're drafting they can only charge basically full price for entry, so 7 bucks minimum, no packs allowed to offset cost, and it'd be pretty up in the air if it's a format you wanted.

zadies
04-23-2015, 09:03 AM
Really if it is doing in print packs from CZE's perspective just eating any random in print pack and spitting back out random packs would be fine as long as the que was completely random and didn't reveal what kind of packs it was going to spit out consuming any in print pack really wouldn't be an issue more a black box.

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 09:11 AM
Each in print pack will not have the same value, There's two major negative outcomes from doing it that way, always entering with the cheapest possible packs, knowing that it is very unlikely to payout those same packs, or people now knowing that who get upset because they did not enter with the cheapest possible packs.

nicosharp
04-23-2015, 09:28 AM
Each in print pack will not have the same value, There's two major negative outcomes from doing it that way, always entering with the cheapest possible packs, knowing that it is very unlikely to payout those same packs, or people now knowing that who get upset because they did not enter with the cheapest possible packs.
There are other ways to handle it so you can offset the costs if truly random drafts were a possibility.

For example, you could have 3 of each set pack in your inventory which would auto allow you to join one of these queues with packs + plat.

Or they could simply do random queues that are created after a queue fires, so you see what set packs are required and can join at your own will. It may not specify pack order. This gives players a small window to make a quick decision on whether they want to buy in to the current draft format presented to them.

A lot to do with design space here. Would be fun for players and HEX Ent. to play/host.

Khazrakh
04-23-2015, 10:07 AM
I love the idea, with 1 stipulation: the format never provides packs no longer selling in the store or formats no longer in print.

The name should be: Format Flashback week.
It should be a week long maybe quarterly. The format could either be randomly assigned when the queue pops or it could rotate on either a set schedule or after each queue fires.

It's a good idea and allows some newer players in the future a diversified and fun experience. But should be a fairly rare event.

Fully agree here, only in print packs should be given out. If it's an out of print set they could just use the current set as payout.
Format Flashback also sounds neat ;)

zadies
04-23-2015, 10:13 AM
CZE could easily have the random draft format base the reward payout if you win on the packs you used to enter it.
You as a player may think you got a great deal because of what you had the opportunity to draft from.
But if all the packs involved are sold in the store.
And you don't know what the format is before you join.
From CZE's perspective of the packs are sold for 200p they are not losing money.
Players create an arbitrary resale value of the packs but from the companies perspective all packs are worth 200p.
The player assigned value to packs really only maters once packs go out of print.

nicosharp
04-23-2015, 10:18 AM
CZE could easily have the random draft format base the reward payout if you win on the packs you used to enter it.
You as a player may think you got a great deal because of what you had the opportunity to draft from.
But if all the packs involved are sold in the store.
And you don't know what the format is before you join.
From CZE's perspective of the packs are sold for 200p they are not losing money.
Players create an arbitrary resale value of the packs but from the companies perspective all packs are worth 200p.
The player assigned value to packs really only maters once packs go out of print.
Gwaer and I understand that about packs. I think what we were discussing was the fact that a lot of players are less likely to join a fun queue when they have to put 700 plat in the game, vs. entering with 100 plat + packs. So the discussion following that statement were ways to still be able to offset that 700 plat entry fee.

Saeijou
04-23-2015, 10:26 AM
I would like the idea, to have those events for the "out-of-print" sets.
Entry fee is just plat and so you are still able to get some old cards.

Would be a nice opertunity I think :)

nicosharp
04-23-2015, 10:30 AM
I would like the idea, to have those events for the "out-of-print" sets.
Entry fee is just plat and so you are still able to get some old cards.

Would be a nice opertunity I think :)
You may be misinterpreting the fact that once a set is "out-of-print" it will never be available again for sale or through tournaments. At least that is the path we've been lead to believe.
The idea is to reintroduce old draft "Formats" of what is in print, or new draft "formats" of what is in print.
Not "out-of-print" sets.

For example -
Set 1 and Set 2 = Block 1
Set 3 and Set 4 = Block 2
Set 5 and Set 6 = Block 3
Set 7 and Set 8 = Block 4 (Set 7 removes Set 1 from print/sale/rewards, Set 8 removes Set 2 from print/sale/rewards - so-on so-forth)
So when set 7 starts, we would no longer have set 1 packs available or draftable in these Format Flashback drafts. But could have Set 2 - Set 7 packs in the draft.

Saeijou
04-23-2015, 10:35 AM
You may be misinterpreting the fact that once a set is "out-of-print" it will never be available again for sale or through tournaments. At least that is the path we've been lead to believe.
The idea is to reintroduce old draft "Formats" of what is in print, or new draft "formats" of what is in print.
Not "out-of-print" sets.

For example -
Set 1 and Set 2 = Block 1
Set 3 and Set 4 = Block 2
Set 5 and Set 6 = Block 3
Set 7 and Set 8 = Block 4 (Set 7 removes Set 1 from print/sale/rewards, Set 8 removes Set 2 from print/sale/rewards - so-on so-forth)
So when set 7 starts, we would no longer have set 1 packs available or draftable in these Format Flashback drafts. But could have Set 2 - Set 7 packs in the draft.

I surely got that. But I would like to have two steps in going "out-of-print".
So at first you arent able to buy Packs like that in the store anymore, but can still optain them in those flashbacks.
And then the real out of print.
I just wanted to make that suggestion :)

I know what you meant initially... but I liked my idea and wanted to add it. Sorry, if you don't like it :(

nicosharp
04-23-2015, 10:37 AM
I like your idea as well, I'm just not sure how HEX Ent. wants to handle "Out-of-Print" content once it's actually out-of-print. It really depends on how they want to create collection rarity long-term, and then their feelings on re-printing content. Some staples will just be necessary to have in competitive formats, regardless of what rotates out, and what set it's from.

ossuary
04-23-2015, 10:42 AM
I definitely don't think they should ever offer out of print sets under any circumstances except for an extremely rare celebration event of some type (5 year Hex anniversary: 1-1-1 drafts for 24 hours!), or phantom drafts. But I do really like the idea of having an occasional day where we switch up the (in-print) packs used for drafting. I'd love to try out a 1-1-2 to see how differently it plays from 2-2-1, just for something different to do if nothing else.

zadies
04-23-2015, 10:59 AM
I agree with oss... I'm sure that some crazy community events may run on out of print sets but they would have to have had them before they went out of print.

temporicide
04-23-2015, 11:08 AM
I really like the idea of having alternative draft formats for a limited time, and having it as a queue rather than a scheduled event. I also agree with many other posters in this thread that Thursday wouldn't be the best time for something like this.

I'd like to suggest that the queue is open for one extended weekend (noon Friday through noon Monday) each month.

Thoom
04-23-2015, 11:15 AM
I'm super in favor of the idea of doing phantom drafts with out-of-print sets.

HexEnt spends tons of time designing fun draft formats, and it would be a crying shame to say "well, this set is out of print so nobody will ever be able to enjoy this format ever again, period" and let that time and effort go to waste.

nicosharp
04-23-2015, 11:20 AM
I'm super in favor of the idea of doing phantom drafts with out-of-print sets.

HexEnt spends tons of time designing fun draft formats, and it would be a crying shame to say "well, this set is out of print so nobody will ever be able to enjoy this format ever again, period" and let that time and effort go to waste.
There is so much to analyze here.
When?
Why?
What would this do to the queues already available?
What would the cost be?
Would there be prizes, and what would they be?
Will it make new players salty at the inability or inaccessibility due to price of out-of-print cards?

We are talking about 3 years of content away from today, potentially, so there is a lot of time to let this idea brew. It's just not something that seems measurable or meaningful right now.

Thoom
04-23-2015, 11:26 AM
When? Regularly, but not constantly (at least until they open up player-run private tournaments, at which point I'd say any time 8 players want to fire one).

Why? For fun.

What would this do to the queues already available? Very little.

What would the cost be? I'd propose 150 plat, but let's not get hung up on the exact number. There could be a gold option as well for a scheduled phantom event (though I'd shy away from gold for an on-demand private tournament).

Would there be prizes, and what would they be? Since this would be a for-fun format, I'd suggest making the queues swiss and offering one latest-set pack per win.

Will it make new players salty at the inability or inaccessibility due to price of out-of-print cards? What does this have to do with anything? Phantom drafts wouldn't be any more or less inaccessible to new players, nor would it change the availability of cards.

nicosharp
04-23-2015, 11:42 AM
I don't want to derail, because this initial idea and original post is really good in this thread.

I will just say, the answers you provided are simplistic, and there is a lot more to talk about. Maybe we can have a separate convo about it some day, but most of the challenges with the questions stems from the fact that its adding another queue and that its being labelled as 'Phantom', which has not yet been a confirmed desire from HEX to ever have. I do like the idea as having it as a unique option for player hosted/guild hosted events though.

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 11:46 AM
There's a possibility for out of print drafts I've been mulling over. Kind of a mixture between a phantom draft and a normal draft, that is available because of the digital nature of the game. It goes something like this.

A) Enter out of print draft as normal with packs/plat from current set.
B) Have all of those packs open, but proxy in the out of print cards just for the draft, Effectively Hexent creates and opens phantom draft packs of an out of print set, lets you pick your cards, and draft just like you were there for 1-1-1 back in alpha.

Edit: B,2)Maybe let you alternate view the cards so you can see what the current set analogue you'll end up with is, so you can take into account, and even rare draft, when you see that ((old trash card)) is actually ((current value card)) after the draft is over. This way people will be aware what they'll end up with after the draft is over.


C)When you exit the draft, you are either just given the contents of your packs like you had opened them in a sealed, or more complicatedly, each pick of the phantom draft packs is substituted for picks in the actual packs that you opened, so if you rare drafted 7 rares (which would pretty much never be optimal in this format) you would end up with 7 rares out of the in print opened packs.

All of the phantom picks disappear into the ether, you've opened packs, and paid out packs in current sets just like a normal draft, but got to experience a draft that you potentially missed out on, or just a bygone favorite format.

Problems that spring immediately to mind, pretty much every problem with phantom drafting. Plus additional difficulty in explaining exactly what you end up with card wise when you're not really drafting a representative card of what you'll permanently end up with.

nicosharp
04-23-2015, 11:52 AM
That's a pretty cool idea. Funny if we could expand on it and when you pick a card, it turns into a out-of-print card of the same rarity and shard type. Invisidraft!
Then at the end of the draft, you get the original cards you picked, prior to transformation.

Or maybe there is a right click zoom-in mechanic that shows you what you would be getting before you pick - kinda like a two-faced card? The Phantom side and the actual side.

Tazelbain
04-23-2015, 12:04 PM
I liked the original idea because I takes advantage of features already in place. I absolutely don't support anything that requires additional development. Hex already has 3+ years on their plate.

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 01:42 PM
I don't think any of us are asking for this to be put into the game right this second, I agree the actual idea expressed in the thread would be much easier to implement, but we don't have the userbase for it, so it's not an option right this second either.

The idea that you don't support any ideas that will take additional development is a pretty narrow view, though. The game is going to be out for a long time, the earlier they like an idea the easier it is to build in support to systems they'll be creating for other necessary features, anyway. So we might as well keep coming up with ideas.

I'm envisioning a pretty sweet interface though just from nico, and I bouncing ideas off of one another, imagine in the first pick of each pack, you see the actual cards, then a ghostly animation plays and they meld into the card they will be for the phantom draft. You can still right click on any card and see what it actually is, but you draft as normal seeing their proxies for this limited tournament.

Tazelbain
04-23-2015, 02:03 PM
Ya, have fun building castles in the sky.

I disagree that Hex doesn't have the base to support the idea in the OP. It's true that drafts are firing slower lately and I wouldn't want to do anything make them slower. But that's partly because of people's boredom with 2-2-1. If Hex could mix things up with tools at hands, I see that as net positive for the draft queues. I know would play the hell out a 1-1-2 or 1-1-1 draft if it was available for a weekend. As opposed to just struggling to find a reason to draft more than my weekly token.

nicosharp
04-23-2015, 02:08 PM
Ya, have fun building castles in the sky.
Cory built the tallest castle in the sky, and dropped us into a huge sky castle sandbox. We are trying to catch up and build add-ons, as Cory continues to build the original sky castle.

Thoom
04-23-2015, 02:08 PM
I don't like the idea of some weird mapping of phantom picks to actual picks. I think it's overcomplicated and would make the tournament less fun than something you could play purely to win without worrying about raredrafting.

Tazelbain
04-23-2015, 02:10 PM
Cory built the tallest castle in the sky, and dropped us into a huge sky castle sandbox. We are trying to catch up and build add-ons, as Cory continues to build the original sky castle.Cory is building real castles.

EDIT: Not saying don't do it. Just saying the suggestions that require little to no coding/engineering are more practical for a small over-worked team.

nicosharp
04-23-2015, 02:48 PM
Cory is building real castles.
Still many Sky Castles - that will eventually drop down to the ground.

Gwaer
04-23-2015, 02:52 PM
Tazelbain I'm not sure what your grievance is exactly... I've conceded that this shouldn't be something that occupies the devs, even if most of the tools are already built, and it could be implemented tomorrow without issue, I still don't think they should because of population concerns. You are pro a normal alternate queue since that will take less dev attention, but no one is calling for it to be done at all, we're just talking? So what exactly are you arguing about.


I don't like the idea of some weird mapping of phantom picks to actual picks. I think it's overcomplicated and would make the tournament less fun than something you could play purely to win without worrying about raredrafting.

This was my original idea. I do like the purity of it, but honestly I think the overcomplicated option is the more practical one, having people just open packs randomly without any say in the cards they end up with makes this more of a hybrid sealed event. Which could be okay I suppose.

Zophie
04-23-2015, 07:05 PM
This was my original idea. I do like the purity of it, but honestly I think the overcomplicated option is the more practical one, having people just open packs randomly without any say in the cards they end up with makes this more of a hybrid sealed event. Which could be okay I suppose.

I think it might be a little overcomplicated too, mainly for the fact that my decision to draft certain cards might end up being influenced by the phantom version attached to each one. Plus that's additional time needed for each pick to review what's up front but also the phantom cards associated and could be a little stressful and confusing for people. Might just be easier to just have the current set's pack opened and given back to each player at the end of the draft, clean and simple.

Aside from that, I think if this is a limited time event it could be a cool opportunity to offer some special sleeves or something as a reward, maybe even ones based off of cards in the older sets that hadn't seen sleeves yet. That'd be pretty rad.

ForgedSol
04-23-2015, 07:23 PM
I suggested something similar. Doing alternate formats on designated weekends (rather than just thursdays) is a great way to keep things fresh between set releases. And if/when Hex makes it Magic old, revisiting old draft formats in this case, would also be a good way to introduce new players to mechanics that may be returning.

Thoom
04-23-2015, 10:59 PM
I think it might be a little overcomplicated too, mainly for the fact that my decision to draft certain cards might end up being influenced by the phantom version attached to each one. Plus that's additional time needed for each pick to review what's up front but also the phantom cards associated and could be a little stressful and confusing for people. Might just be easier to just have the current set's pack opened and given back to each player at the end of the draft, clean and simple.

Why do packs have to be involved at all, as long as Hex is getting plat for the event?

Zophie
04-23-2015, 11:04 PM
Why do packs have to be involved at all, as long as Hex is getting plat for the event?

I dunno, if it's phantom draft then I guess they're not needed at all then, good point. I dunno if there's something I'm not thinking of though, someone else can chime in on that one if there is a reason for needing them.

Gwaer
04-24-2015, 12:13 AM
Doesn't have to be, but for a small community it makes the market run smoother, as packs are opened in limited events, singles enter into the market to keep prices stable. Eventually it won't be such an issue, but until the game is much bigger I don't expect to see phantom events.

Zophie
04-24-2015, 12:17 AM
Doesn't have to be, but for a small community it makes the market run smoother, as packs are opened in limited events, singles enter into the market to keep prices stable. Eventually it won't be such an issue, but until the game is much bigger I don't expect to see phantom events.

There we go, I can get behind that reasoning, thanks Gwaer!

Thoom
04-24-2015, 06:08 PM
Doesn't have to be, but for a small community it makes the market run smoother, as packs are opened in limited events, singles enter into the market to keep prices stable. Eventually it won't be such an issue, but until the game is much bigger I don't expect to see phantom events.

That's a fair point. Hopefully by the time sets start to go out of print, the population will be big enough that this won't be an issue.

Khazrakh
04-25-2015, 01:01 AM
I don't think any of us are asking for this to be put into the game right this second, I agree the actual idea expressed in the thread would be much easier to implement, but we don't have the userbase for it, so it's not an option right this second either.

I don't think the current user base would be a problem. It could be done once in a month for a single day without causing much problem right now. I'm rather confident we'd see a way above average draft participation on that given day :)

poizonous
04-25-2015, 01:44 AM
1 day would be a terrible idea as I previously mentioned. Needs to be at minimum a weekend event but should be a week long event

Khazrakh
04-25-2015, 01:50 AM
1 day would be a terrible idea as I previously mentioned. Needs to be at minimum a weekend event but should be a week long event

A week long event would split the community too much in my opinion. Even a weekend would be problematic with the current user base I guess, but I'd be fine with having it run for 3 days later on.
Right now the idea behind having it just for 24h is to not interfere with 2-2-1 too much while still having something different to do every now and then. Since we already agreed on calling it Format Flashback it could very well just be a Saturday or Sunday :)

poizonous
04-25-2015, 02:52 AM
Im fine with disrupting 2-2-1 for a week, Its an old enough format, it isnt new. If something like this were to take place at the beginning of a new draft format i would fully agree, but at this point in the sets life and the draft formats life, i am fine with 2-2-1 not firing for a weekend for something fresh

Khazrakh
04-25-2015, 03:14 AM
Im fine with disrupting 2-2-1 for a week, Its an old enough format, it isnt new. If something like this were to take place at the beginning of a new draft format i would fully agree, but at this point in the sets life and the draft formats life, i am fine with 2-2-1 not firing for a weekend for something fresh

Guess you are right, I might be worrying a bit too much about not splitting the community.