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View Full Version : Have you SERIOUSLY considered the gold inflation in AH?



txgenius
04-24-2015, 06:41 AM
I think you have a whole R&D team working on the game and you must know what happens to AH in Diablo 3. So I won't waste my time to explain it here. The problem now is: do you have the wisdom and resolution to solve this problem in HEX? Don’t think you’re lucky and you won’t have this problem. The gold inflation in AH may force someone to use platinum instead of gold, but it will definitely turn much more people away from this game.
To get some money for now, or earn less now and turn HEX to be a greater game, that’s your problem.

Kroan
04-24-2015, 06:45 AM
What gold inflation?

ossuary
04-24-2015, 06:48 AM
Hey txgenius,

I can assure you, the dev team is very aware of the inflationary nature of a free, infinitely generate-able currency. They are actively working on ways to encourage people to spend their gold to counteract this effect. The main problem with most games that have a non-real currency in them is that it's easy for people to hoard that currency because there are often few if any reasons to spend it. In Hex, there are things we can spend gold on that have intrinsic value, because they are things that many players desire. Therefore, since people are encouraged to spend their gold (and rewarded for doing so), they are more likely to consume it, and keep the total amount of gold in circulation in check.

CZE has the ability to adjust gold rewards and gold costs as well, so as they monitor the economy over time, they can introduce new items for gold to encourage people to spend it, or find ways to reward more gold for certain activities if they find gold ends up being deflationary and there just isn't enough to satisfy the demand. They have complete control of all the faucets as well as the sinks. :)

Roy_G
04-24-2015, 06:54 AM
There is no gold inflation,gold value went up so I'm thinking twice before spinning rare chests as it costs half a pack.

hex_colin
04-24-2015, 07:43 AM
You haven't seen all of the planned Gold sinks either. This is a non-issue.

EntropyBall
04-24-2015, 08:01 AM
If you want to see how bad the gold "inflation" is, check out the graphs in this thread:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40425&p=479054&viewfull=1#post479054

Gold is the most valuable its ever been.

Tazelbain
04-24-2015, 08:06 AM
Ya, issue is really item inflation. Items are going inflate when they are constantly being generated and zero are destroyed. The PvE economy is all fountain and no sink. This is MMO 101.

Xenavire
04-24-2015, 08:08 AM
Ya, issue is really item inflation. Items are going inflate when they are constantly being generated and zero are destroyed. The PvE economy is all fountain and no sink. This is MMO 101.

And that is coming too (crafting.)

nicosharp
04-24-2015, 08:09 AM
I used to think gold inflation was going to be a problem, but then I got bored of the Arena.

AdamAoE2
04-24-2015, 08:13 AM
I disagree that gold is inflating - at the moment, gold is extremely valuable. Even more-so when planned gold sinks are implemented.

The item inflation is a problem that I hope will be addressed with rarer chase equipment as well as the proposed crafting system that they were talking about in the kickstarter. I hope they stick to some of their ideas of patterns being droppable in PvE too. (The idea of a craftable AA recipe dropping in a dungeon is really appealing to me)

rjselzler
04-24-2015, 08:23 AM
You haven't seen all of the planned Gold sinks either. This is a non-issue.

The AA removal commons have been a super-effective gold sink. Based on this demonstration, I'm completely sure that further sinks will be effective. From my experience, packs were going for around 40-50k gold pre-arena/AA removal, depending on the set. Now, they go for around 25-30k. With more gold in the game...

In fact, I expect to see threads about gold deflation in the next year or so: "It takes me three packs worth of gold to open a legendary chest! WTF?!!!"

Right now, it seems like 3-4 arena clears can get you a set 1 pack and 4-5 can get you a set 2 pack. That seems pretty spicy for the F2P crowd; I don't think any other dTCG can currently match that for a casual format with very low barrier to entry. CZE deserves a big fat congrats, IMO. I can't wait to see what further dungeons and gold sinks bring; keep it coming!

Tazelbain
04-24-2015, 08:39 AM
And that is coming too (crafting.)
I agree on the low end. But really nothing will stop the few high-end frost arena items from joining the low end. To me the rares and legionaries need to drop less and some of the better common and uncommon equipment need to have their rarity increased. Hex know what equipment is best for perfects, that data should make it easy to tell what the truly legendary equipment is.

RCDv57
04-24-2015, 09:00 AM
Some of the good common items seem to be there in order to turn weaker cards into cheap affordable bombs. My Red Ruby Rebel deck is built around that very notion. Its pretty nice for the F2P guys.

ossuary
04-24-2015, 09:30 AM
I agree on the low end. But really nothing will stop the few high-end frost arena items from joining the low end. To me the rares and legionaries need to drop less and some of the better common and uncommon equipment need to have their rarity increased. Hex know what equipment is best for perfects, that data should make it easy to tell what the truly legendary equipment is.

Remember, Frost Arena was also CZE's first foray into PVE. It's a testbed and a learning experience for them as well. I expect you will see things handled slightly differently in the future as more releases come out (and possibly even have existing content retooled, hard to say if that will be necessary). I would anticipate seeing a larger number of common items, more common items that are worth having, and a larger pool of legendary items (and therefore by extension a smaller number of each individual one entering the system). Couple that with crafting that consumes items to make other better / rarer items, and the system can become self-correcting.

zadies
04-24-2015, 09:45 AM
There are chase pve items in the game currently the fact that arena is being played as much as it is because it is the sole source of pve is really what is causing the prices on them to be depressed.

txgenius
04-24-2015, 10:15 AM
Hey txgenius,

I can assure you, the dev team is very aware of the inflationary nature of a free, infinitely generate-able currency. They are actively working on ways to encourage people to spend their gold to counteract this effect. The main problem with most games that have a non-real currency in them is that it's easy for people to hoard that currency because there are often few if any reasons to spend it. In Hex, there are things we can spend gold on that have intrinsic value, because they are things that many players desire. Therefore, since people are encouraged to spend their gold (and rewarded for doing so), they are more likely to consume it, and keep the total amount of gold in circulation in check.

CZE has the ability to adjust gold rewards and gold costs as well, so as they monitor the economy over time, they can introduce new items for gold to encourage people to spend it, or find ways to reward more gold for certain activities if they find gold ends up being deflationary and there just isn't enough to satisfy the demand. They have complete control of all the faucets as well as the sinks. :)

glad to know you have a plan for this. But be careful, Microsoft also thought they have the control and can guide users to use win8.


I used to think gold inflation was going to be a problem, but then I got bored of the Arena.

Agreed. I get bored too since it's toooooo hard for my startup decks to defeat tier 2. So I decide not to torment myself anymore.


If you want to see how bad the gold "inflation" is, check out the graphs in this thread:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40425&p=479054&viewfull=1#post479054

Gold is the most valuable its ever been.

any statistics before arena open is not appropriate now, since gold will come much faster than before.

Zophie
04-24-2015, 10:17 AM
any statistics before arena open is not appropriate now, since gold will come much faster than before.

http://www.hexprice.com/GoldPlat

Vorpal
04-24-2015, 10:21 AM
What gold inflation?

It used to be about 40k gold for a pack, now it's down to like 30k.

We have HUGE gold sinks in the game - just the AA's for 25k gold each is immense, then there are all the millions of gold needing to be spent to fully roll all those legendary chests everyone has. Between needing...600k? for a full set of the AA cards and at least that much to roll all my legendary chests, my account could absorb a full 1 million in gold JUST in gold sinks (disappears from the economy). When you're getting..7k? from an arena run that's... a staggering amount of gold.

Gold inflation is certainly a concern to be considered, but it seems they have considered it and have, for the moment at least, introduced sufficient gold sinks.

What we need now are 'crappy rare sinks' and 'bad equipment sinks' so the supply of those doesn't just continue to grow.

Blare731
04-24-2015, 10:25 AM
What we need now are 'crappy rare sinks' and 'bad equipment sinks' so the supply of those doesn't just continue to grow.


Crafting system should deal with this. They mentioned being able to 'disenchant' all your extra stuff you didn't/couldn't sell for crafting stuff to be used for PvE stuff....

But I'd like it for the millions of extra commons and uncommmons that I have over the rares and equip haha.

vickrpg
04-24-2015, 10:28 AM
glad to know you have a plan for this. But be careful, Microsoft also thought they have the control and can guide users to use win8.
*They have a plan. Oss doesn't work for CZE (that I know of) He's a volunteer.



Agreed. I get bored too since it's toooooo hard for my startup decks to defeat tier 2. So I decide not to torment myself anymore.
If you want some help, I usually have some commons/uncommons to give away. It's surprising how cheaply you can build a deck that beats arena. My rock league deck runs it regularly.



any statistics before arena open is not appropriate now, since gold will come much faster than before.
Into the economy? yes. but individually? no way. Tourneys were SO MUCH MORE efficient (if you win a lot) than the arena, especially on a per game rate. once the gold was removed I haven't had enough gold to spin a legendary. and through my several dozen arena runs I've still yet to see the elusive dragon. actually, I'm pretty sure I'm nearing a hundred runs by now.

ossuary
04-24-2015, 10:34 AM
glad to know you have a plan for this.

Just for the record, I am not a CZE employee. I am a forum volunteer. I do not speak on behalf of the company officially (unless I state otherwise, in the bug forums, which is the area I volunteer in). I am only relaying information that has been publicly stated in the past, or openly discussed on these forums.

Selanius
04-24-2015, 11:21 AM
Ossuary sounds too official for his own good :)

Soon you are going to get complaints about the shuffler straight to your PM box.

ossuary
04-24-2015, 11:52 AM
Ossuary sounds too official for his own good :)

Soon you are going to get complaints about the shuffler straight to your PM box.

You say that like I don't already. ;)

PureVapes
04-24-2015, 12:57 PM
I think you have a whole R&D team working on the game and you must know what happens to AH in Diablo 3. So I won't waste my time to explain it here. The problem now is: do you have the wisdom and resolution to solve this problem in HEX? Don’t think you’re lucky and you won’t have this problem. The gold inflation in AH may force someone to use platinum instead of gold, but it will definitely turn much more people away from this game.
To get some money for now, or earn less now and turn HEX to be a greater game, that’s your problem.

Having traded large quantities of cards/packs/gold/plat over the last few months, I can assure you gold is very valuable and will almost certainly maintain its value for at least the next couple of months. In fact, I'll personally buy your gold and anyone else's for 180 gold per plat at any point during the next two months, just COD me. :)

Sparrow
04-24-2015, 01:27 PM
I'm pretty sure you guys are being trolled, but it's good to know the buying power of gold is still strong after the release of Arena. So, good thread despite the start.

darkwonders
04-24-2015, 06:52 PM
I wish gold prices would inflate. It's getting expensive to roll my rare chests now.

Khazrakh
04-25-2015, 01:05 AM
I wish gold prices would inflate. It's getting expensive to roll my rare chests now.

I'm in the same boat.
When arena started I was like "yay, finally I can roll all those rare/legendary chests".
When the AA commons hit the shop I thought "ah well, gotta get those first, plenty of time so spin those chests later"
By now I just buy stuff from the AH whenever I finish a run - there are way to many good deals to spend it on anything else ;)

Stok3d
04-25-2015, 07:50 AM
I just want to point out what I mentioned back about 6 months ago and totally was misaligned with everyone else's predictions. In gaming, I tend to pride myself with market predictions. I called this trend many months back--see below:



I have very differing opinions than what i read in this thread in regards to what is going to happen with gold ratios come PVE. I'll give an indepth analysis closer to PVE, but will leave you with one thought:

Flooding gold to the market will severely hurt PVE people on attaining PVP cards and making a case for F2P. If I can get 1million gold for 1 pack, then I'll be rolling chests for free forever and not need further currency to buy. Heck, it would likely be easy to be self-sufficient in this scenario and the ratios would run out of control quickly. However, if gold value deflates to levels I am expecting, then people will have to make a conscious decision if they actually want to roll the chest or just open it. This scenario will favor PVE players by making gold extremely desirable and the direction I believe we'll be going.

I ask you this, where does it say every chest needs to be rolled? Maybe you'll need to sell a couple chests to afford to roll one if you don't PVE. Maybe if you strictly PVE you'll need to complete 8x hours of PVE dungeon just to roll a common one. Realize, the 'true' value in PVE completion will be the equipment--not the gold.

A lot is up in the air--I just feel that CZE has a history of being on the 'generous' side on this game in it's infancy--reference KS. Accounts right now can be controlled with the finite amount of accounts with Beta Keys. I wouldn't be surprised if the reigns were tightened come open Beta on gold generation for trials and removed entirely come PVE.

I anticipate Serious Deflation... that's a high level generalization of my thoughts. I'll break down my hypothesis in detail on implementation of gold closer to PVE. This will also detail a strategy to help combat botting by placing the vast majority of payout on the final boss. We'll see if I'm right and for proper disclaimer -- as a Mod I am privvy to nothing more than anyone else in this forum...


One last thing, I hope there is a significant incentive to actually rolling the legendary chests as this will play a vital part in gold consumption...

Xenavire
04-25-2015, 08:16 AM
Interesting - you were right about the deflation, but the details are backwards - the gold is currently more valuable than the equips (for now.)

I expect that to change with new content, but we are in some weird bubble right now.

Fyren
04-25-2015, 09:49 AM
Interesting - you were right about the deflation, but the details are backwards - the gold is currently more valuable than the equips (for now.)

I expect that to change with new content, but we are in some weird bubble right now.

Still think it would be awesome if excess equipment and PvE cards were scrappable/"vendorable" for gold. Wouldn't have to be too much, but if I see redundant legendaries I want to at least be able to say "Hey, some cash!" rather than "Oh great, another unsellable dot in my inventory."

plaguedealer
04-25-2015, 09:51 AM
The word is that equipment cannot be broken down for craftable items, is that correct?

Yoss
04-25-2015, 11:43 AM
Still think it would be awesome if excess equipment and PvE cards were scrappable/"vendorable" for gold. Wouldn't have to be too much, but if I see redundant legendaries I want to at least be able to say "Hey, some cash!" rather than "Oh great, another unsellable dot in my inventory."

+1

zadies
04-25-2015, 02:58 PM
That is a horrid idea given we don't know what the crafting system is going to be, nor how valuable crafted material will be CZE would have to make assumptions as to it's value to allow for the resale of the items directly to them as gold, and that would either
a) set an artificial price on crafting components
b) over or under pay for the items based on what the crafting component would be worth once the system is implemented
If the gold for items is removed when crafting is implemented people are going to either feel like they came out extremely lucky or like they were ripped off.

Yoss
04-25-2015, 07:56 PM
That is a horrid idea given we don't know what the crafting system is going to be, nor how valuable crafted material will be CZE would have to make assumptions as to it's value to allow for the resale of the items directly to them as gold, and that would either
a) set an artificial price on crafting components
b) over or under pay for the items based on what the crafting component would be worth once the system is implemented
If the gold for items is removed when crafting is implemented people are going to either feel like they came out extremely lucky or like they were ripped off.
Sounds like "the sky is falling" to me. Worst case, they remove gold when crafting comes. They just set it to something low like 100g per item and when it goes away no big deal.

zadies
04-25-2015, 08:02 PM
Feel free to add it at 100g per item... as long as it is removed when crafting is implemented... and if crafting mats are worth more then 100g prepare for a lot of whining, and if they end up being less then 100g prepare for a lot of people begging for it to come back.
Also it just sets a floor price for posting things to the ah given you can definitely get 100g for something it makes 0 sense to ever post anything for less then 100 gold... not sure if that is actually better or worse then the artificial price floors that are already in place.

Fyren
04-25-2015, 08:18 PM
Feel free to add it at 100g per item... as long as it is removed when crafting is implemented... and if crafting mats are worth more then 100g prepare for a lot of whining, and if they end up being less then 100g prepare for a lot of people begging for it to come back.
Also it just sets a floor price for posting things to the ah given you can definitely get 100g for something it makes 0 sense to ever post anything for less then 100 gold... not sure if that is actually better or worse then the artificial price floors that are already in place.

How do your arms not get exhausted setting up all those irrelevant straw boogeymen in like every thread on the front page?

Tighten up the AH interface until Hearthstone urinates blood with envy and it still wouldn't be actually worth listing commons for 100, AKA "Just above half a plat." And while I'm not in favor of the artificial price floors, this would be less artificial in that it would raise the value of equipment as much by setting a vendor price as by taking extra equipment out of circulation. Other game economies (I.E. Every MMO Ever) have vendor prices on equipment and, shock and awe, somehow stuff manages to go for more than the vendor price a lot of the time!

Even low numbers like Common - 100, Uncommon - 200, Rare - 500, Legendary - 1000 would still mean we get a lot more mileage out of the torrent of extra junk we've got than we have now - and if/when some hypothetical crafting system gets implemented, I don't know, 18 months from now, we can lament lost crafting materials then.

zadies
04-25-2015, 10:35 PM
You know... I really do hope that everything works out perfectly and that things don't go down the bleak path I'm seeing... people really do like instant gratification and don't really have any qualms selling the future to get it... Though tbh adding a vendor to the game would just cause the issue that was the concern of the original poster.

IronPheasant
04-25-2015, 10:36 PM
The value of cards trends down on the whole except for the broken chase legendaries. When you're actually able to make an entire set out of PvE cards, how much demand will there really be for PvP cards to primarily PvE players? How many people will actually want to chase the purple dragon of constructed?

And gold is linked inextricably to booster and card generation: if X amount of gold generates Y amount of plat from spins, there is a kind of firm value to the stuff.

Honestly I don't even bother make transactions anymore with the intent of converting currency, unless I'm getting at least a 100:1 ratio. And even then I wonder if I'm not exploiting myself.

LNQ
04-26-2015, 12:06 AM
The junk legendary (and rare) equipment are bound to be worth more in crafting mats than they are regularly listed for in the AH right now (0.1 - 4 plat). I think just as gold from drafts was a great deal, the rate at which you can get legendary equipment from the Arena right now is going to be seen as great value in the future once PvE loot tables evolve a bit.

There is no way it would be smart to keep legendary eq feel as worthless as they do at the moment. CZE has to make them feel like proper high end loot.

zadies
04-26-2015, 12:18 AM
How many people will actually want to chase the purple dragon of constructed?


That I think depends on how often and how much money is involved in the real money tournaments.

x78089
04-26-2015, 12:49 AM
The junk legendary (and rare) equipment are bound to be worth more in crafting mats than they are regularly listed for in the AH right now (0.1 - 4 plat). I think just as gold from drafts was a great deal, the rate at which you can get legendary equipment from the Arena right now is going to be seen as great value in the future once PvE loot tables evolve a bit.

There is no way it would be smart to keep legendary eq feel as worthless as they do at the moment. CZE has to make them feel like proper high end loot.

Precisely.

zadies
04-26-2015, 11:10 AM
Also I think the issue with rare/legendary gear is that CZE hasn't figured out drop rates and what really is rare/legendary. The power of the items doesn't really seem associated with it's rare/legendary tag but more with it's drop rate.

Turtlewing
04-27-2015, 08:22 AM
Also I think the issue with rare/legendary gear is that CZE hasn't figured out drop rates and what really is rare/legendary. The power of the items doesn't really seem associated with it's rare/legendary tag but more with it's drop rate.

More precisely players don't seem to have sorted out that hex equipment is more like a TCG card in design (a single special effect) than a typical RPG equipment (scaling effects). And so "rarer is better" doesn't hold as a paradigm.

Rarer means "harder to find" ie rarer items drop less often or in harder encounters than more common items.

hex_colin
04-27-2015, 08:28 AM
More precisely players don't seem to have sorted out that hex equipment is more like a TCG card in design (a single special effect) than a typical RPG equipment (scaling effects). And so "rarer is better" doesn't hold as a paradigm.

Rarer means "harder to find" ie rarer items drop less often or in harder encounters than more common items.

Indeed. And so Legendary equipment will be in demand by completionists. "Powerful" Legendary equipment will be in demand by everyone and will be the true prize from much of PVE. :)

Vorpal
04-27-2015, 09:25 AM
Interesting - you were right about the deflation, but the details are backwards - the gold is currently more valuable than the equips (for now.)

I expect that to change with new content, but we are in some weird bubble right now.

It won't change unless there are equipment sinks that are as desirable as the current gold sinks. Hopefully that will occur with crafting.

I could use millions of gold without batting an eye, so I think the value of gold is going to stay pretty high for quite a while.

I didn't realize just how much gold I got from drafts, getting 20k gold in a single elim draft was just way more efficient than grinding the arena 4 times.