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knightofeffect
04-28-2015, 08:45 PM
Why not? It seems like a kinda cool accomplishment. That means in the worst case scenario you still had to beat the bosses with no extra starting bonus.

With perfecting an arena run is getting increasingly difficult and will only continue in that manner as the AI improves (here's looking at you Seaweed Behemoth's Storm Cloud) combined with the prospect of getting the god-forsakken Uruunaz to spawn creates some pretty lofty goals but with no real in-between those and simply completing an arena run.

This could fill a little gap in the accomplishment progression.... Kinda like how I'd wish HS gave something extra for going 12-0.

Don't get me wrong, I already think that the arena gives plenty of rewards, IE if they lowered the individual gold loot-table ever-so-slightly to rectify for the economic impact (a 1:'whatever the percentage people are completing the task' ratio assuming they have developed their gold sinks that tightly) it wouldn't make we want the bonus any less.

elfstone
04-28-2015, 09:41 PM
but they have that already don't they? I get a Sleeve for perfecting the arena

poizonous
04-28-2015, 10:14 PM
I can get behind this because once you get your perfect sleeves there is 0 bonus for going undefeated

knightofeffect
04-28-2015, 10:52 PM
Well what I'm suggesting isn't necessarily going undefeated, its just ended with 0 strikes in the losses boxes. IE you can earn back your defeats by winning the challenges. I'm not sure if that actually counts towards the sleeves or not, I was under the impression you had to legitimately perfect it.

poizonous
04-28-2015, 10:54 PM
Well what I'm suggesting isn't necessarily going undefeated, its just ended with 0 strikes in the losses boxes. IE you can earn back your defeats by winning the challenges. I'm not sure if that actually counts towards the sleeves or not, I was under the impression you had to legitimately perfect it.

That im not sure if i can get behind though, because whenever you have a strike and beat a challenge, it removes a strike ( I wish this wasnt the way it worked) which would make the bonus a ton easier to achieve.

Zophie
04-28-2015, 11:11 PM
I agree there should be some kind of bonus post-sleeves win.

Khazrakh
04-28-2015, 11:12 PM
Well there are already the sleeves for going perfect and you already get more gold from a run with less or zero losses because you earn more gold from the encounters between the bosses.

What I'd like to see is Hogarth himself stepping into the arena against you when you go perfect (or finish with zero losses, this would be way too easy though), giving some speach about how he's going to punish you for doing such a boring run.
His deck should be REALLY hard to beat but reward a modest amount of extra gold (maybe 5000?) if you manage to beat him.

poizonous
04-28-2015, 11:23 PM
What I'd like to see is Hogarth himself stepping into the arena against you when you go perfect (or finish with zero losses, this would be way too easy though), giving some speach about how he's going to punish you for doing such a boring run.
His deck should be REALLY hard to beat but reward a modest amount of extra gold (maybe 5000?) if you manage to beat him.

That sounds totally worth it and probably not too hard for them to implement

Gwaer
04-29-2015, 12:34 AM
Maybe they can just make you play xarlox over and over until you lose, each win adds 100 gold to your total, and he gets one additional special mill 10 card.

Zophie
04-29-2015, 12:52 AM
I think it'd be great if there were leaderboards for people who go 20-0 that tracks like the top players for total damage, total healing, total draws, etc. If you get 20-0 then all the damage dealt to opposing champion and troops through all the winning matches is added up and put on a leaderboard, and another one for healing, draws, or whatever else you can think of. I'm sure people would have fun with that trying to beat other people's high scores in different areas. Could even have each high score be clickable to pop up a decklist and what date it was done on. This same thing could be added to all the dungeons in the game as they are released too.

Hrinkell
04-29-2015, 01:58 AM
What I'd like to see is Hogarth himself stepping into the arena against you when you go perfect

Good suggestion... let me add: perfecting Arena, makes you face Urunaaz directly (a cool regular way to match the dragon). And only when you beat Urunaaz, you will be able to challenge Hogarth for the final amazing prize!

Salverus
04-29-2015, 02:34 AM
this might be a good idea for the future, but for now it is too easy to get a perfect run in the arena. So giving away additional rewards (apart from the already perfect chest and the sleeves) is not a good idea.

poizonous
04-29-2015, 02:40 AM
Good suggestion... let me add: perfecting Arena, makes you face Urunaaz directly (a cool regular way to match the dragon). And only when you beat Urunaaz, you will be able to challenge Hogarth for the final amazing prize!

Too abusable

strylght
04-29-2015, 05:31 AM
I think it'd be great if there were leaderboards for people who go 20-0 that tracks like the top players for total damage, total healing, total draws, etc. If you get 20-0 then all the damage dealt to opposing champion and troops through all the winning matches is added up and put on a leaderboard, and another one for healing, draws, or whatever else you can think of. I'm sure people would have fun with that trying to beat other people's high scores in different areas. Could even have each high score be clickable to pop up a decklist and what date it was done on. This same thing could be added to all the dungeons in the game as they are released too.

A hundred times this.
Bragging rights baby, bragging rights!

EDIT: Add speed to the list please and have it sortable so you can see easily the rankings for each statistic. Speed, I think, is the statistic most likely to create further meta-competition. I mean, whole communities have sprung up around the speed-running of other games.
Obviously PvE is good for story mode or whatever, but why the hell not have competitive PvE? Especially in the context of an 'Arena' as opposed to a 'Campaign'.

EDIT 2: In fact Zophie, I believe this competitive PvE idea deserves a suggestion thread all of its own. It is simply fantastic!

Gwaer
04-29-2015, 06:54 AM
On the topic of competitive PVE, here's a brainstorming thread from 2013 that I thought had some great ideas someone might be able to run with and improve upon.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26275

Tazelbain
04-29-2015, 07:30 AM
Too abusable
Agreed. What I would like to see is extended stats of the run. That way people could do competitive PvE on things like most overkill or most mill wins, etc.

strylght
04-29-2015, 07:43 AM
On the topic of competitive PVE, here's a brainstorming thread from 2013 that I thought had some great ideas someone might be able to run with and improve upon.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26275

I will give that thread a deeper read but after a quick skim it seems to be largely about different modes of PvE which could be implemented and become competitive.
I think the beauty of combining the arena or other future PvE modes with a deep leaderboard toolset would be the facilitating of free-form community organised PvE tournaments.
Taking the example of speed running, the leaderboard would obviously show all-time records in its default form but imagine if you could filter results from a particular day/afternoon/week and maybe even filter for a list of players (tournament entrants) then you have a kind of freeform tool for creating tournaments.
All I think would need to be added to any kind of PvE for it to become competitive would be a way to confirm results and the relevant statistics of a run without the inconvenience of having to record or stream it, like the current arena speedrun competition. Sure, have officially implemented 'seasons' and 'world first' competitions, but why not provide the tools to the community to come up with their own competitive formats?

Gwaer
04-29-2015, 08:01 AM
I guess I just disagree that leaderboards will enable players to create their own formats. Leaderboards like discussed here only enable the formats hex tracks. And it'd be pretty complicated to really make it viable, and that would mean at the very least tracking/filtering decks and equipment. Most competitive tcg nonsense comes down to deck restrictions, fast arena clear time with no rares, or not using these banned cards etc. and as I said even after that you can only have formats built around the metrics that are tracked. I very much prefer the idea of leaderboards in addition to game modes designed to be competitive. Leaderboards as a stand alone feature not so great imo.

That's not to say that leaderboards shouldn't or couldn't be implemented first, but I'd scrap the idea of finely tuning it to only show a certain timeframe to try to twist it to become 'the competitive pve'

strylght
04-29-2015, 08:27 AM
I guess I just disagree that leaderboards will enable players to create their own formats. Leaderboards like discussed here only enable the formats hex tracks. And it'd be pretty complicated to really make it viable, and that would mean at the very least tracking/filtering decks and equipment. Most competitive tcg nonsense comes down to deck restrictions, fast arena clear time with no rares, or not using these banned cards etc. and as I said even after that you can only have formats built around the metrics that are tracked. I very much prefer the idea of leaderboards in addition to game modes designed to be competitive. Leaderboards as a stand alone feature not so great imo.

That's not to say that leaderboards shouldn't or couldn't be implemented first, but I'd scrap the idea of finely tuning it to only show a certain timeframe to try to twist it to become 'the competitive pve'

Well, as I said, I in no way mean to oppose the inclusion of official competitive game-modes. I was just brainstorming an idea involving the provision of additional tools to community PvE tournament holders.
Perhaps a leaderboard type format would be the wrong way to provide these tools but ultimately, I suppose, what I am getting at is a way to export, share and confirm the statistics of a run in something like the arena.

Zophie
04-29-2015, 08:49 AM
Well the leaderboard idea would be basic in implementation, but it could be flexible enough to also be applied to any additional gamemodes that are added to dungeons like Gwaer suggested. There's definitely space for competitive PVE in both basic standard gameplay as well as in restricted PVE formats that have special rules for entry.

strylght
04-29-2015, 09:04 AM
Yeah, I just think that some kind of toolset would be invaluable to the competitive PvE community.
I mean, what if CZE implement a plethora of interesting and diverse PvE formats, but no way to compete in speedruns (to use the same tired example, sorry)? For all the begging of the people who want an official (read: confirmable without streaming) way to compete at speedruns, CZE just doesn't do it for whatever reason.
It's a hypothetical situation of course but with some kind of free-form tool, CZE wouldn't even need to spend resources on implementing such a format specifically.

I'd like to point out the example of Prismata. It is primarily a PvP card game but the relevant bit is the fact that you can share replays of games as simple codes which are entered into the client in order to confirm results or even watch the game play out in front of you.
Even something as simple as, if not simpler than, this could achieve what I want.
What about a code which is given at the end of an arena run which can be entered into the client by a tournament judge (or anyone) in order to display the statistics of your run and your decklist, etc, for adjudication? Adjudication and, of course, general bragging rights, proof of achieving something you're proud of, any number of reasons.

Gwaer
04-29-2015, 09:16 AM
Speedruns generally exist to extend the life of a game beyond its normal limits, after everyone is tired of something and has moved on the speedrunners keep playing to get the perfect time. It's definitely positive, and that prismata feature is awesome, even if I really dislike prismata. But it's not a feature that needs to be in in beta. It's a feature that a community absolutely can do itself, and most communities do exactly as you say, with recorded video, which works fine. So if they get around to adding a cool replay feature, or in depth leaderboards that track every possible piece of info, how many cards of various types played, how long it took in total, longest time spent in a single turn, etc so you can support various types of analytics that'd be awesome. But it's not terribly high on my list of features simply because it's more of a quality of life improvement than actually opening up gameplay.

strylght
04-29-2015, 09:33 AM
Speedruns generally exist to extend the life of a game beyond its normal limits, after everyone is tired of something and has moved on the speedrunners keep playing to get the perfect time. It's definitely positive, and that prismata feature is awesome, even if I really dislike prismata. But it's not a feature that needs to be in in beta. It's a feature that a community absolutely can do itself, and most communities do exactly as you say, with recorded video, which works fine. So if they get around to adding a cool replay feature, or in depth leaderboards that track every possible piece of info, how many cards of various types played, how long it took in total, longest time spent in a single turn, etc so you can support various types of analytics that'd be awesome. But it's not terribly high on my list of features simply because it's more of a quality of life improvement than actually opening up gameplay.


Fair enough, this is all perfectly fair enough. Let's just hope CZE can do something that promotes a vibrant competitive PvE scene because, personally, that excites me almost as much as a vibrant competitive PvP scene and a fair bit more than story-mode PvE.

I fear I may have taken this thread way too far off-topic for too long and I apologise to the OP.

MatWith1T
04-29-2015, 09:59 AM
I find the best competitive PvE happens outside the game, by the community itself. Games that became popular for speed runs all had their own internal competitive functionality pre-built in the form of High Scores... no one cared about that. Building 'bests' into the game dictates what players should find compelling, and it rarely is accurate. Also, by baking it in, the community has less say in the rules (ie competitive raiding in WoW comes with all sorts of caveats about whether killing X counts before or after some patch/nerf/buff/bug)

As to the original post about bonuses... if the bonus would be even the least bit meaningful, it would encourage players to stop playing at a certain point rather than risk their first loss. I understand the risk/reward appeal of pushing your luck vs getting the 0-loss bonus, but from a game design standpoint, I don't think that outweighs the fact that you are incentivizing players to stop playing, stop reaching for the harder goals, and valuing loot over gameplay. The bonus for 0 losses if you have more loot and gold from winning than you would have had if you lost one of those matches... its not crazy special, but it seems like a pretty good incentive to win in my book.

strylght
04-29-2015, 10:04 AM
I find the best competitive PvE happens outside the game, by the community itself. Games that became popular for speed runs all had their own internal competitive functionality pre-built in the form of High Scores... no one cared about that. Building 'bests' into the game dictates what players should find compelling, and it rarely is accurate. Also, by baking it in, the community has less say in the rules (ie competitive raiding in WoW comes with all sorts of caveats about whether killing X counts before or after some patch/nerf/buff/bug)

This is exactly my point, put more eloquently than I have been able to, thanks. :)
It is for exactly these reasons why I think that a great way to foster a PvE community would be something like this...


What about a code which is given at the end of an arena run which can be entered into the client by a tournament judge (or anyone) in order to display the statistics of your run and your decklist, etc, for adjudication? Adjudication and, of course, general bragging rights, proof of achieving something you're proud of, any number of reasons.

Thinking about it, it could even be an API thing. Perhaps something like a switchable "onArenaComplete" event which can be forwarded to web-based leaderboards and tournament sites.

Lafoote
04-30-2015, 02:13 PM
I'm pretty satisfied with the reward scheme in place. I think seeing Hoggarth with one of 3-4 different decks as a 25% Final Boss instead of 'just' those in rotation seems interesting though. Each deck could represent him or one of his little friends. I would think they probably already have plans for him though.

Zophie
04-30-2015, 02:17 PM
Maybe Hoggarth can be used as the first intro to Raid Bosses, much like the Frost Ring Arena was the first taste of dungeons

Xenavire
04-30-2015, 04:42 PM
Maybe Hoggarth can be used as the first intro to Raid Bosses, much like the Frost Ring Arena was the first taste of dungeons

That sounds fun.

Jonesy
05-01-2015, 06:20 PM
I agree there should be some kind of bonus post-sleeves win.

The bonus is you don't have to stress about finishing perfect any more.

Zophie
05-01-2015, 08:39 PM
The bonus is you don't have to stress about finishing perfect any more.

lol That's certainly one way to look at it :D

strylght
05-02-2015, 02:29 AM
The bonus is you don't have to stress about finishing perfect any more.

Yeah one way of looking at it is once you 20/0 you are now free to start skipping tier 1 and grinding as efficiently as possible.
Alternatively you are free to move on to another deck and try to 20/0 with that.

Xenavire
05-02-2015, 07:16 AM
Yeah one way of looking at it is once you 20/0 you are now free to start skipping tier 1 and grinding as efficiently as possible.
Alternatively you are free to move on to another deck and try to 20/0 with that.

You only have to start at tier 2 to get the sleeves. 20-0 is not needed at all.

poizonous
05-02-2015, 07:21 AM
IMO giving people no reason to continually perfect the arena hurts the longevity of the mode

strylght
05-02-2015, 08:12 AM
You only have to start at tier 2 to get the sleeves. 20-0 is not needed at all.

Right sure. What I mean, though, is that perhaps 20/0 does not require further reward because it is a reward in itself.
You've played the arena carefully and cautiously and congratulations, your careful play has got you a perfect arena run!
Now you have that perfect run under your belt you are free to stop playing cautiously and start playing quickly, which will likely be better for you gold per hour.

Obviously this only really applies to F2P players and, for the record, I do think Poizonous' comment above is very likely true.

Jonesy
05-05-2015, 05:33 PM
Right sure. What I mean, though, is that perhaps 20/0 does not require further reward because it is a reward in itself.
You've played the arena carefully and cautiously and congratulations, your careful play has got you a perfect arena run!
Now you have that perfect run under your belt you are free to stop playing cautiously and start playing quickly, which will likely be better for you gold per hour.

Obviously this only really applies to F2P players and, for the record, I do think Poizonous' comment above is very likely true.

You misunderstand, 15-0 will get you sleeves, you could have skipped tier 1 anyways...not that you ever lose in tier 1.

Severim
05-05-2015, 06:28 PM
You only have to start at tier 2 to get the sleeves. 20-0 is not needed at all.

There are 3 sets of sleeves you can get from the Arena, 1 set for completing it, 1 set for going 20-0 and a final set for beating Uruunaz.

I would like to see additional bonus gold for completing it 20-0 but beyond that not much else. It is pretty much just a place to grind out gold if needed anyway xD

But then that could be abused, there are a lot of decks that go 20-0 on nearly every run. People would just use the same decks to gold grind and creativity would go out the window.

Xenavire
05-05-2015, 06:37 PM
There are 3 sets of sleeves you can get from the Arena, 1 set for completing it, 1 set for going 20-0 and a final set for beating Uruunaz.
.

As I said, it is for going 15-0. You can start at tier 2 and get the perfect run sleeves. This is common knowledge for a lot of players, and it is definitely the preferred method.

Khazrakh
05-05-2015, 09:38 PM
As I said, it is for going 15-0. You can start at tier 2 and get the perfect run sleeves. This is common knowledge for a lot of players, and it is definitely the preferred method.

Technically you're right of cause, but the tier 1 encounters aren't really a challenge to any deck that can go 15-0 from tier 2 to tier 4, so skipping tier 1 is more about saving some time and/or optimizing your gold per hour than about making the perfect run that much easier.

strylght
05-06-2015, 04:50 AM
Heh, allow me to clarify my point, I suppose it is confusing.
It was my understanding that we were discussing an extra bonus for going 20-0 so my comment was specifically about achieving a 20-0, not achieving a 15-0 or receiving sleeves.
I understand that you can get the sleeves from going 15-0 but clearly there is some personal sense of achievement to be gained from going 20-0 instead/aswell and what I am suggesting is that said personal sense of achievement and the fact that you no longer have to play carefully in order to get a 20-0 once you have that personal achievement under your belt is reward for going 20-0 in itself. I'm not referring to sleeves or 15-0 in any way.

Let's say you have already managed 15-0 and received the sleeves, but you still feel motivated to try for 20-0 as well. This means you will continue to play carefully through all four tiers so as to achieve a 20-0 run. Once you have achieved this, you no longer need to play carefully and can begin grinding and increasing your gold per hour through playing quicker.
As I've said its not a relevant reward for anyone disinterested in grinding the arena and doesn't really warrant this much discussion but all the same it clearly requires clarification.
So, in conclusion, I know you can skip Tier 1 and get the sleeves, but you can't skip Tier 1 and get a 20-0. As I say, it was my understanding that the we were talking about receiving a reward for playing 20 games without loosing on top of the reward that already exists for playing 15 games without loosing. I'm responding by saying that no longer having to try to play 20 games without loosing IS that reward because you can now gain more gold per hour by playing quicker and skipping Tier 1.

Does this make sense?


EDIT: This line of thought comes from my own experiences really. So maybe it would help to outline them.
Yes, I wanted the sleeves, they are cool and I understood I could get them from going 15-0.
I was also interested in grinding the arena as fast as possible at some point.
Further to both of these, I wanted, for my own reasons, to achieve a 20-0 run.
Because of this desire, I didn't skip Tier 1 or start grinding until I had achieved a 20-0 but once I had, I started skipping it and playing in a more grindy fashion and experimenting with other decks for fun.

Warrender
05-06-2015, 11:12 AM
I don't agree a bonus should be awarded for this feat but if CZE ever decides to implement achievements, this sounds like a fine candidate.

poizonous
05-06-2015, 11:19 AM
IMO 20-0 is just as easy as 15-0... If you can go 15-0 from tier 2-4 then beating tier 1 will be simple. There really is no difference between 15-0 and 20-0. anyone who attempts 20-0 and gets 19-1, odds are very likely that the loss didnt occur from tier 1

Gwaer
05-06-2015, 12:31 PM
Don't forget there are a faction of people who believe 15% of games are decided entirely by resource issues. So every game is another chance to auto lose. In that lens 20-0 must be harder than 15-0. But I agree with you, they're functionally the same. Once you're perfecting tier one you're unlikely to lose there again.