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whiteyzz
05-04-2015, 04:45 PM
So what do you guys think of this 1 cost legendary?

I'm going to be honest till we see the rest of elfs and how much resource they can easily ramp out this legendary seems just meh.

From what I see, it feels not a worthwhile drop for a 1 cost green, it is to easily hit by removal and cant block anything early on without dieing. But generally when you have 8 resource with no ramp with here you will get turn 5/6/7 worth of 5 drops then 8 you can look at the top 3 cards.

Why it's meh IMO

1. Removes all counters on use so reverting wont give your one shot back

2. Eye of creation will be used on any turn you could use this with a better effect

3. The Basic effect makes it so you cant use it when you want making it very easily to be killed from instant spells, and you cant use it to react to a kill spell on other turns

4. Being a 1/1 it can block anything without dieing without a combat trick.

5. We don't know if it counts mobs/spells with reduced cost.




https://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/PupilofCreationx450.png

havocattack
05-04-2015, 04:48 PM
It has sexy art >_>

whiteyzz
05-04-2015, 04:49 PM
It has sexy art >_>

and people who dont look at the forums are going to buy it for 10$ on launch of the pack not knowing it's poop 5 toughness or power would've been a million times better as a card.

Scammanator
05-04-2015, 04:51 PM
You're not mentioning that it gets +2/+2 for each 5 cost card you play. I see that as its real power, and the one-shot just a potential bonus effect.

Axle
05-04-2015, 05:10 PM
Seems pretty good with enough cards in the game to support a mostly midrange deck. I could see Puck coming back into competitive play if Elves keep focusing on playing 5 cost or higher cards and minimizing the inconsistencies of them.

The 1 shot might be a tad bit expensive for how long it takes to be significant but the stats it can reach as a 1 drop after a couple turns is nice. Also has the benefit over Eye that it can't be countered as it's already in play when you use the ability.

whiteyzz
05-04-2015, 05:21 PM
You're not mentioning that it gets +2/+2 for each 5 cost card you play. I see that as its real power, and the one-shot just a potential bonus effect.

Oh her one-shot isn't something that will ever happen. Green doesn't win at stall, you already made your a turn 1 who cant block without dieing and with lucky ramp you can start dropping

Turn 1, Her and a resource
Turn 2, resource + Puck / Chlorophyllia
Turn 3, resouce + Puck / Chlorophyllia
Turn 4, Resource, drop a 5 cost

You have a 3/3 with turn 4 creatures who if you swing will die, and turn 5 it will die to most things dropped then too.

So you need your hand to be

Resource / Resource / Resource / Puck(or a mana ramp card) / Chlorophylia / Pupil of Creation / 5 drop creature

1.So you need a great hand

2. The first 3-4 turns you have to allow aggro decks to slam into you and if it's orc Great now you have to throw blockers under a invincible Gortezuma and Claw of the mountain god shreking you... or have a dwarf deck go OKAY well this tower hulk is now a hmmm alright you droped a 5 drop that's SOOOOO SCARY IM SHIVERIN MY BOOTIES I have a 10/10 crush skyguard. Human has War prodigy and a ton of humans out. Shin hare will again have so many lil ones that are buffed out right now. Inspire would have Legionnaire of Gawaine removing your board and Royal Falconer killing you, a incubus can steal your creature and start dropping it's 5 drops/ Vampire king is stealing your 5 costs...

If elfs are going to be the 5 cost or greater kinda deck theme, here is what I see wrong with it

MTG it was power 5, you can buff a creatures power up to 5.

Hex it seems to 5 cost, you cant buff a creatures cost easily.

Axle
05-04-2015, 05:28 PM
You're probably right, but we do need to see more cards in the set I think. Elves are based on ramping to big troops according to the introduction page, so acceleration might get faster.

Not sure if you were around for t1 howling brave, t2 old Chloro (+2 resources for 3 cost), but something like Elf Allegiance could give us that kind of speed.

Scammanator
05-04-2015, 05:31 PM
Green doesn't win at stall

That's only true in constructed format.

Draft, Sealed, and PvE decks will all be happy to have this card when they can get it. And since those are basically the only formats I personally play, I'm quite happy with the card. It's not amazing, but it looks fun and far from "meh."

whiteyzz
05-04-2015, 05:48 PM
You're probably right, but we do need to see more cards in the set I think. Elves are based on ramping to big troops according to the introduction page, so acceleration might get faster.

Not sure if you were around for t1 howling brave, t2 old Chloro (+2 resources for 3 cost), but something like Elf Allegiance could give us that kind of speed. We don't know what elfs are like now but yes you have a turn 3... 3/3 and a 5 cost, but if you get her in a hand where you cant ramp up mana... she's meh


That's only true in constructed format.

Draft, Sealed, and PvE decks will all be happy to have this card when they can get it. And since those are basically the only formats I personally play, I'm quite happy with the card. It's not amazing, but it looks fun and far from "meh."

Green stalls horribly, what do they have right now to make a great stall?

Mill them? No
Ramp up mana slowly? Why do it slowly when you can do it quickly?
Control the board? They control the board by having the biggest monster they dont have many tap/use/ect kill spells

Green right now crushes the people with dropping big creatures early, or having a lot of creatures? The longer you stall the game with green, the more time you give you opponents to catch up.

Since elfs seem to be Green/Red with their land, they don't have the best stall colours

White can tap down everything you get / exile them / make them unable to attack / white also has a board wipe

Black can make creature dies, remove it from your deck, kill spells, lethal creatures, board wipe

Blue can again bounce,counter,transform your creatures, mass board bounce

Red has burn spells which are useful early on, Ruby lance holds up if your mono red, and burn to the ground becomes VERY resource inefficient for removing bigger guys

Green has Duel and Turbulence... two VERY specific kill spells no flying and Survival of the Fittest and Turbulence/ Tectonic break is a great removal for wheenies but you get it WAY to late by turn 7 your dead.

hex_colin
05-04-2015, 06:03 PM
I frequently enjoy making decisions about the usefulness of a card with 2-3% of the available information about the set. ;)

This thread is probably a little premature. :)

Also, it has obvious synergies with Puck, Sight and Eye without even thinking too hard about the cards we do already know about.

whiteyzz
05-04-2015, 06:06 PM
I frequently enjoy making decisions about the usefulness of a card with 2-3% of the available information about the set. ;)

This thread is probably a little premature. :)

Well either elfs are going to have really dumb mana ramp and it's going to be a giant game of running kill/bounce/ramp to deal with it? Further pushing the idea that white/black tier 1 decks are going to get pushed further, or this card will be too slow to be used, and when used it could've just been an eye of creation give you 2x the creatures.

What we can tell with the elfs have this concept of 5 cost or greater with Puck and this release and buffing creatures. It feels like MTG power of 5 or great but a lot worst in concept... because are we going to buff the cost of creatures...?

Biz
05-04-2015, 06:21 PM
would this get buffed from tunneled troops that surface with 5+ cost?

it's pretty resilient against buccaneer / time ripple / countermagic / verdict, so it definitely has its positives
it's also easy to counter, so it'll probably never be considered overpowered

it at least seems playable (in the literal sense of actually being able to play it), unlike the high cost stuff
i guess that qualifies as progress

also, it's just 1 threshold so you don't have to commit to wild as much as an eye of creation deck does

whiteyzz
05-04-2015, 06:42 PM
would this get buffed from tunneled troops that surface with 5+ cost?

it's pretty resilient against buccaneer / time ripple / countermagic / verdict, so it definitely has its positives
it's also easy to counter, so it'll probably never be considered overpowered

it at least seems playable (in the literal sense of actually being able to play it), unlike the high cost stuff
i guess that qualifies as progress

also, it's just 1 threshold so you don't have to commit to wild as much as an eye of creation deck does

Tunneling that is a good question, but when you look at the creatures with tunneling you will soon see why it's bad

Tectonic Megahulk (Artifact)
Excavation Hulk (Artifact)
Bucktooth Roshi (Green)
Mesmeric Hypnoscientist (red as elfs seem to be green/red)

Now eye of creation could be a great card with this because if it sees all the +5 costs that come into play she could get silly.

But yes eye of creation saps your mana for your turn pretty much BUT it generally puts you in a really good position.

Pupil of creation has to build up / cant block anything for a few turns / and easily target by death spells where as eye of creation you only have to worry about a mono blue counter or your enemy running a worldwipe. We will have to wait and see if other cards make her better but I don't see her being that great.

also with 3% of the information we can easily see how it doesn't compare to some of the other top tier legionaries like Angel... Vampire... Reese... Monsuun... Moss... Tectonic can easily be seen as good. I mean no one in the rightmind can look at vampire king and go

A 3/4 with lifelink/flying for 2 black, that reveals a random card that spawns a 2/2 flying life link if it's a creature for 4 mana?

But again one can be dealt with, black and blue have to remove their board position to deal with eye of creation or counter it. Versus how many things can dish out 1-3 damage, or just straight out kill it...

Dont get me wrong this isn't a BAD Legendary like

The Kraken (deal 1 damage to all creatures... he's gone, remove him? the tentacles go bye bye...)

Spearcliff Cavalier (a really expensive 5/5 for 7)

Reginald (a 3 cost for 3/3 that hopefully doesn't get killed by a turn 2/3 drop?, and you might never die before you see him... eh)

Rampaging Tarasque (Sure he does a lot of damage but he dies, it would just be better to save up your mana to drop creatures who will live longer and dish out more damage, he would be alright if it wasn't for that 5 pure red)

Lady Shimmer (Honestly she comes way to late in the game for inspire to be useful)

Cosmic Transmogifier (Not totally bad, but not great, but your leaving yourself to random fate. It's a fun card that's about it)

Comet Strike (Give the opponent 10 mana/ and force the game into who ever wins to top decking!)

Citadel of Adamanth ( Oh shoot i thought you where going to do something scary with your 7 mana )

Resurrection (Too expensive, but it's decent... the problem is you run a low amount so you barely see them, or you run 4 and you see them all the time... unless your running green/white you cant ramp this out fast enough.)

These cards are the icing on the cake and should be thrown into the same pool I would put in uncommons the problem with Hex is a lot of the expensive cards dont really warrant EVER running more then 2 of if you don't have the mana ramp for it (aka green)... but since you run so little of them you never see them because you have to play 3 colours to help yourself draw into them, another colour to ramp your mana.

You see root fathers in decks because not only do they help fix your deck, they're powerful, you don't see the +7 costing legionaries because all they're good for is their board presence and they don't have protection... if someone kills a vampire lord sure it sucks but I didn't wait till turn 9 to drop him.

What I could see is if your playing mana Ramp you would have shit like

Green/White

Constants 2
2 Resurrection

Basic Action 11
3 Eye of Creation
4 Chloro
4 Oakhenge Ceremony

Quick Action 6
3 Survival of the Fittest
3 Repel

Creatures
3 Pupil of creation
4 Arborean Rootfather (Lifedrain/Another creature gets +x/+y based off this creatures x/y)
4 Angel of Dawns
4 Howling Brave
3 His Majesty Gabriel (this is two 6 cost drops for the price of 1)
3 Pucks

Resource 20
Green/White Shard x 4
8 White Shards
8 Green Shards

Champion: Rutherford or the person who poops out the 5 cost soldiers into your hand

The resurrections bring back your creatures so any of your +5 creatures die your Pupils get buffs, if your pupil dies, you just bring it back. Angel of Dawn can put on some early charges on pupils, Arborean are great for fixing your hand and with his two ruins he will make your possible early Angel of dawn a 12/12 flying/steadfast for a turn

Diesbudt
05-04-2015, 06:53 PM
Well either elfs are going to have really dumb mana ramp and it's going to be a giant game of running kill/bounce/ramp to deal with it? Further pushing the idea that white/black tier 1 decks are going to get pushed further, or this card will be too slow to be used, and when used it could've just been an eye of creation give you 2x the creatures.

What we can tell with the elfs have this concept of 5 cost or greater with Puck and this release and buffing creatures. It feels like MTG power of 5 or great but a lot worst in concept... because are we going to buff the cost of creatures...?

Currently in constructed (and arena PVE varient) is a red green Eye of creation deck that can ramp like a crazy person half the time. In arena I hit 13/7 resources on turn 8. Have decent 4 cost troops that can keep the board stable with some removal.

It isnt as bad as you think, wild has some decent resource ramp already.

whiteyzz
05-04-2015, 07:36 PM
Sure PVE, no one has counter spell so eye of creation is easy to use.

But uhm kill spells on the other hand?

Again the problem with it is easily targeted by removal so she isn't useful for that. She cant be thrown to block a 1/1, or she's a pointless card?

Now think PVP.

A. It is easily removed by anything
B. It cant hold up to a vampire king drop messing your hand up (green is very creature heavy)
C. She isn't good for dishing out damage, Jadiim seems way scarier in a power 5 deck because look at it this way

Jadiim drop Turn 3-5 (Possible with current Ramp)
Jadiim Swings Turn Turn 4-6, has evasion, and if you drop a 5 cost he's now a 10/10 flying, in 2 turns your enemy is dead

Pupil of Creation... again sits there for 3-4 turns then gets pumped up to a 3/3... but with no evasion and with 2 drops having 3 attack on them she cant swing... turn 4 she can swing, turn 5 they will have a drop hopefully as powerful. but lets say you swing with her

at 3+5+7 (14 + the creature you summoned) guess what the turn in which you have the mana to use her ability you won the game! (you have to think since we don't know of any 5+ cost ramp, and 5+ cost ramp is usually garbage because you want your ramp to be a quick drop, or he better be more then just ramp you either have no charges, or the game is already over, or she's been dealt with.

If your using her for a beat stick, Jadiim is better. If your using her for her ability with Ramp, Eye of creation is vastly superior. If your using her for both your better running the two cards because actually getting the perfect ramp with 3 or 4 in your deck means she's commonly seen and if you see her as a draw turn 1-4 she's a bad draw (if you didn't have her in your hand) if you draw her when you have 5 mana, your open for a turn or she sits there in your hand picking her nose doing nothing useful. Again it's also at BASIC speed, one shot that removes it's tokens so you cant just simply revert it...

MTG had power of 5 or greater instead of cost which was way better because you could have some 4/3 drops with low toughness but 5 power, and it's legendary was a tap, oakhenge that was 5 top creatures and put one into play... this could be done each turn for 3 mana. And had shit like cant be countered, gets first strike (swiftstrike) (indestructable) (Ect).

What I could see is this as an elf General though

Increase the cost of all spells in your deck by 2 gain 2 temporary resources/1 permanent (4 Charges)

Then I could see this elf becoming a powerhouse because turn 5-8~... all your creatures will proc this effect, and count for puck and buffing cost 5 creatures.

To be honest we cant say much about her until we see more elfs that is correct.

BUT she does nothing to hype elfs up, just make people go... this could be a terrible card or a good one. But i guess they left elf's to a complete mystery. Where as we have a general concept on the other races abilities.

Selanius
05-04-2015, 09:47 PM
It costs 1. Cards that have low casting costs are the ones that are most likely to be constructed viable. If Wild has some good things to ramp into that provide real value then I could see this card being good. If not, then I suspect it won't be that valuable. It's too early to say that this card will be bad or good.

Right now Wild suffers from not having enough "value creatures". Master Moss is close, but does not have synergy with this card. Right now the best synergy I see with this card is Reese, Subterranean Spy, and Angel of Dawn (plus all the obvious ramp cards).

zadies
05-04-2015, 10:04 PM
I love the focus on constructed, forgetting that draft is going to be 3-3-3 so....

Axle
05-04-2015, 10:08 PM
Well it is a legendary card. Not much to talk about there. You have a 1/3 chance for the legendary card, but then you've got a pool of 15ish legendary cards to pull that 1 card.

If the entire tribe at the common/uncommon level focuses on ramp too, then yeah you'd probably run it and go into elves.

poizonous
05-04-2015, 10:12 PM
Being a Master deck builder, my first glimpse of this card was terrible.. but now after thinking about this card for a whole day, I built a deck that would make this card shine, and the deck can only get better with the rest of the set, so dont go thinking this card is bad, it will probably scare people in the meta game

Fizzydragonhex
05-04-2015, 10:13 PM
Has anyone mentioned it's only one threshold and the activation has none? Hardly a mono wild only deck availiable here.

Selanius
05-04-2015, 11:07 PM
Axle is right on, discussing a legendary's applications in limited is very... limited in applicability.

I think right now the strongest deck with this card is a Sapphire/Wild ramp deck (maybe splashing for AoD). I don't think the deck would be tier 1 with the current set of cards, but if set 3 gives enough support the deck could be competitive with only a little help.

whiteyzz
05-05-2015, 11:55 AM
Again the most I see is she has the potential to be all right, not great cause you have to look at several things

1. We have to look at you at the most optimal situation

Turn 1: Mana Ramp / Resource
Turn 1E: Resource / Charge bot
Turn 2: Her and Mana Ramp / Resource
Turn 2E: Resource / Plans, Ability
Turn 3: Resource/ 5 cost
Turn 3E: Ingenious Engineer / resource [plan is at 8]
Turn 4: Another 5 cost [Plan is at 14] and Procs, your Pupil of Creation got chump blocked
Turn 4E: He has a 14/14 crush / skyguard dude fucking yo shit up, you lost your 5/5 Pupil of creation and only have two 5 costs.

Hand Required to win: Sapphire/Resource/Resource/Ingenious Engineer/x/x/x

and if we go PVE

Turn 1: Red resource, Ridge Raider
Turn 2: Red resource, Clarity , Brutal Commander. Swing for 4 damage, get the orc who does 1 damage when you use a charge
Turn 3: Red Resource, Crushing Blow on Brutal Commander. You win

Hand required to win. Resource/Resource/Clarity/Brutal Commander/X/X/X

Pupil's perfect hand is

Resource/Resource/Resource/1 Cost Mana Ramp/1 Cost Mana Ramp or Chrolo/pupil of creation/5 cost or greater

there is no open slots, if you don't have 3 resources you have to hope one of your 2 draw is one of the things I mentioned, or your going to have your prick in your hands not knowing what to do with it when people bash your face in with a vampire king not knowing what to do and when your pupil even becomes a threat it gets a kill spell to the face and now you have no hand, your pupil is dead, your 5 cost is exiled and you look like an idiot rubbing your head wondering what the hell went wrong.

2. Least Optimal Situations you can get her in
Lets look at the people i named above as key cards...
Ingenious Engineer? Your mana screwed?
Brutal Commander? Your REALLY mana screwed?
Pupil of Creation?

1. Drew her turn 3 when you can drop a 5 cost, you either give your enemy another turn to become more threatening or pupil of creation is less powerful.

2. You dropped all your 5 costs and then you drew into a pupil.

3. You don't have the mana ramp to get 5 mana early

4. You don't have any 5+ costs in your hand

5. If your opponent has any sort of kill spell, ESPECIALLY if someone just dropped heat wave your whole field is fucked because the whole time you spent building her up since her ability is at basic speed.

6. Your up against a fast aggro deck you just gave him 3 turns of free pummeling you down in a ditch. because neither pupil of creation or mana ramp cards that we know of can be used to chump block.

7. For the most part her ability is trash, she's either so buffed you won her the game by bashing your opponents head in with 5+ costs when he couldn't deal with it in which she's just a Jadiim with no evasion... or she's a very inefficient drop because by the time you have 8 mana eye of creation would've been the best mana efficient choice

8 Mana for 8-3 = 5
8 Mana for 3 Charges = 3 you would need to drop 5, 5 cost creatures before it become efficient.

The only time she's efficient is if you got hit by a board wipe in which... again she's now in your graveyard.

Turtlewing
05-05-2015, 12:54 PM
Seems like the main problem is that it'll be useful in a pretty narrow window between where playing several 5+ drops doesn't win you the game, but having this does.

vickrpg
05-05-2015, 01:40 PM
Oh her one-shot isn't something that will ever happen. Green doesn't win at stall, you already made your a turn 1 who cant block without dieing and with lucky ramp you can start dropping

Turn 1, Her and a resource
Turn 2, resource + Puck / Chlorophyllia
Turn 3, resource + Puck / Chlorophyllia
Turn 4, Resource, drop a 5 cost

You have a 3/3 with turn 4 creatures who if you swing will die, and turn 5 it will die to most things dropped then too.

So you need your hand to be

Resource / Resource / Resource / Puck(or a mana ramp card) / Chlorophylia / Pupil of Creation / 5 drop creature

What? why do you need 3 resources at all. Or chloro for that matter. 2 wild and puck can give you all the turn 3 mana you need.
t1 Shard Pupil
t2 Shard puck
t3 tap puck (5-6 possible + cards in hand, so if 1-3 are 5, you can play one without playing a shard) bam, our 1/1 is a 3/3 about as quickly as you could make a certain 1/1 3-color human a 3/3. and you can keep making it bigger by 2 every turn if you play the right deck. with either shards/large creatures.

She's not the BEST card ever, but she's not bad. the effect is just icing.

Besides, as others have pointed out, We don't have the rest of the set to see how good/bad it can be.
Perhaps we will get a card that says "Elf Allegiance: this troop's cost is 5 for elf related effects" or maybe a resource that gives you no threshold, no charge but 2/2.



Reginald (a 3 cost for 3/3 that hopefully doesn't get killed by a turn 2/3 drop?, and you might never die before you see him... eh)

Rampaging Tarasque (Sure he does a lot of damage but he dies, it would just be better to save up your mana to drop creatures who will live longer and dish out more damage, he would be alright if it wasn't for that 5 pure red)

I was with you until these 2.

Reginald is amazing. Ask Boulder Toss. Or crushing blow. The fact that he shares a color with Anarchist and fulmination (also underrated) is also icing.

Tarrasque is a 5 drop that shares a color with every attack increasing troop in the game, and all the burn. He's an amazing surprise finisher. It's the Speed that makes him great though. Rushing Gorefeast but your opponent extinctions turn 4? T5 tarrasque says I win. If I'm at 5 red, I'd rather have a Tarrasque than burn to the ground in my hand.

All of these card are situational but awesome IMO.... Except for comet strike. Which you can still kind of game with solitary exile.




Mesmeric Hypnoscientist (red as elfs seem to be green/red)

*Elves

whiteyzz
05-05-2015, 01:48 PM
What? why do you need 3 resources at all. Or chloro for that matter. 2 wild and puck can give you all the turn 3 mana you need.
t1 Shard Pupil
t2 Shard puck
t3 tap puck (5-6 possible + cards in hand, so if 1-3 are 5, you can play one without playing a shard) bam, our 1/1 is a 3/3 about as quickly as you could make a certain 1/1 3-color human a 3/3. and you can keep making it bigger by 2 every turn if you play the right deck. with either shards/large creatures.

She's not the BEST card ever, but she's not bad. the effect is just icing.

Besides, as others have pointed out, We don't have the rest of the set to see how good/bad it can be.
Perhaps we will get a card that says "Elf Allegiance: this troop's cost is 5 for elf related effects" or maybe a resource that gives you no threshold, no charge but 2/2.


I was with you until these 2.

Reginald is amazing. Ask Boulder Toss. Or crushing blow. The fact that he shares a color with Anarchist and fulmination (also underrated) is also icing.

Tarrasque is a 5 drop that shares a color with every attack increasing troop in the game, and all the burn. He's an amazing surprise finisher. It's the Speed that makes him great though. Rushing Gorefeast but your opponent extinctions turn 4? T5 tarrasque says I win. If I'm at 5 red, I'd rather have a Tarrasque than burn to the ground in my hand.

All of these card are situational but awesome IMO.... Except for comet strike. Which you can still kind of game with solitary exile.



*Elves

IMO she feels more like rare material not a legendary. I guess yes crushing blow, and way it's not combat damage on him? Must've misread it. Tarrasque IMO is an great card but again he's mono red and on the same turn for the same cost someone might drop a droo's walker, maybe I'm just way to use to my PVE mono white inspire giving me the gold in PVE :P (he's a beastly turn 5 10/10 lifesteal / steadfast. :P

Yes a lot of them are situational you can put in a fun deck, but compared to other cards I feel like when you use them your already in a winning position.

like Lady shimmer... uh... yeah you already had the board position to crush the enemy with any card like the two i named before are pretty much a win con in those types of decks.

vickrpg
05-05-2015, 02:01 PM
like Lady shimmer... uh... yeah you already had the board position to crush the enemy with any card like the two i named before are pretty much a win con in those types of decks.
Lady shimmer I really want to like. But can't. she's unplayable expensive. So bad...

But you don't need any board presence for her, if you're playing white and inspire, you have blessing the fallen. The one time I tried to build a deck around her, I got 7 shimmers, steadfast +x+0, lifedrain, +x+x, +0/+1, +1/+0 and speed with an empty board, a full GY and a blessing. I mean I *guess* you can play her if you play queen grace and no blue for prohphet... but the slowness.

whiteyzz
05-05-2015, 02:15 PM
Lady shimmer I really want to like. But can't. she's unplayable expensive. So bad...

But you don't need any board presence for her, if you're playing white and inspire, you have blessing the fallen. The one time I tried to build a deck around her, I got 7 shimmers, steadfast +x+0, lifedrain, +x+x, +0/+1, +1/+0 and speed with an empty board, a full GY and a blessing. I mean I *guess* you can play her if you play queen grace and no blue for prohphet... but the slowness. Again you have the board presence, why not just have a hasted falconer swing for lethal? or the Legionnaire of Gwain be a board wipe and swing out? The problem with those legendary is I have to convince myself to put them in the deck... where as mono black orc... why not put a few vampires for flyers and life! Yes you could go BUUUT REESE IS ONLY GOOD IN ARTIFACTS... Uh that is kinda true, he makes 1/1 chump blockers or random artifacts is really good to have out. But any artifact deck will have Reese pretty much period unless it's mono red. While i guess we dont all need reese/vamp king material on all legendaries, but we also dont want shimmer/comet storm material

Mokog
05-05-2015, 05:32 PM
Pupil of Creation is a Eye of Creation Enhancer. It fits a narrow selection of decks. It will have a space in stompy decks. If Eye Decks get the right tools this will be a great card. Else it will be fun in PvE and draft. Why rant about a card designed for a specific line of play? Obviously not versatile but designed for a niche. I am glad she is legendary. I don't want to see Sight of the sun, Pupil, eye of creation into with a wave of troops, exhaust Sight and then use pupil. That is something disgusting which should only be done publically on stream to be seen crushing your enemies, have them driven before you and hear the lamentations of their women.

Flairina
05-05-2015, 09:53 PM
Semi off-topic here (in that this is largely strategy discussion), but, why does the descriptive text on the page call Pupil of Creation "he"? I mentioned this back on the announcement board but was largely ignored; not certain if it's a typo or if its intentional. If intentional, okay, cool (if a bit bizarre given the clearly female card art), if not, someone should probably fix that.

whiteyzz
05-05-2015, 11:36 PM
Pupil of Creation is a Eye of Creation Enhancer. It fits a narrow selection of decks. It will have a space in stompy decks. If Eye Decks get the right tools this will be a great card. Else it will be fun in PvE and draft. Why rant about a card designed for a specific line of play? Obviously not versatile but designed for a niche. I am glad she is legendary. I don't want to see Sight of the sun, Pupil, eye of creation into with a wave of troops, exhaust Sight and then use pupil. That is something disgusting which should only be done publically on stream to be seen crushing your enemies, have them driven before you and hear the lamentations of their women.

Okay you eye of creation for x = 8, and you get 5 really big creatures

1. The problem is it will most likely if they all come into play from eye of creation if she isn't on the field she's just a filler

2. If eye of creation brings one into play we will get 0 charges on it

3. Cant re-act to kill spells so you can eye of creation and they can just react with killing her but anything drops.

She is pretty much like Lady Shimmer, she's a card in which you've most likely already won the game if you use her effect, and if your using her for a powerhouse... she lacks crush or flight in which pulling the same tricks with Jadiim is way more threatening. Then if you run something that gives crush your losing out on 5+ costs unless your using onslaught.

Other cards does what she does quicker and more efficently

Beatstick - Jadiim Outputs more damage + Flying
Eye of creation - Quicker/cheaper/more effective

I dont know for eye of creation I would rather have pack raptors, I think i just love anything with swift strike TBH

Anything that would be like a 0/4 defender in a deck trying to output a lot of mana to use eye of creation would be more useful or gives mana.

vickrpg
05-06-2015, 06:51 AM
Again you have the board presence

Again, in my example there was nothing on the board. No Presence. Extinctioned.

But I'm agreeing with you, Lady shimmer is bad.

Jinxies
05-06-2015, 07:25 AM
I run one Lady Shimmer in my Blessing of the Fallen deck and it does quite well. I'd probably never play her in anything else though :P

whiteyzz
05-06-2015, 09:33 AM
Again, in my example there was nothing on the board. No Presence. Extinctioned.

But I'm agreeing with you, Lady shimmer is bad. Unless your Mono white, if you had the prince who gives haste... Falconer would just wreck them for 3 mana less because with him all you need to give +5/+0 inspire and you won because of the birds in reality get +10 in the end. I guess for PVE but then their is just quicker and cheaper inspire decks, with mono red with the clever hunter, or mono white droo's colossal walker (give him lifesteal and steadfast and most other decks will cry)


I run one Lady Shimmer in my Blessing of the Fallen deck and it does quite well. I'd probably never play her in anything else though :P

My problem with her if your running white/red,
1.Falconer is a cheaper and faster win.
2.Legionnaire of Gwain is a great board wipe
3.Incubus is better board control

If your running white/blue
1. Again she's pretty slow and saps you of all your mana leaving you with 0 control
2. Most likely would've won with inspiring stronger flyers before she comes out

again that's the problem you run 1 because

1. You don't want her in your opening hand
2. You don't want her to be drawn before 8 mana

Scammanator
05-06-2015, 12:48 PM
What if there were cards in sets 3 and 4 that looked like this:

Feralroot Packbeast
:wild::wild: 5 Cost
Troop - Beast
Crush
Elf Allegiance: This has cost -3 in your zones.
3/3

Would enough efficient cards that could trigger Pupil but still be played for less than 5 make her potentially worthwhile?

whiteyzz
05-06-2015, 02:56 PM
What if there were cards in sets 3 and 4 that looked like this:

Feralroot Packbeast
:wild::wild: 5 Cost
Troop - Beast
Crush
Elf Allegiance: This has cost -3 in your zones.
3/3

Would enough efficient cards that could trigger Pupil but still be played for less than 5 make her potentially worthwhile?

Would it see it as a 5 cost being drop or a 2 drop? Because right now if I use the effect to do damage on the petreo it hit's for it's -1 (0 damage) not 7 on the minion. Mind you that looks infinitely better then that because a 3/3 with crush? you can throw buffs on it and it becomes a scary attacker... where as no matter how big you make the other person reese can stop it with the 1/1's he shits out every turn (or artifacts)

sukebe
05-06-2015, 03:46 PM
Would it see it as a 5 cost being drop or a 2 drop? Because right now if I use the effect to do damage on the petreo it hit's for it's -1 (0 damage) not 7 on the minion. Mind you that looks infinitely better then that because a 3/3 with crush? you can throw buffs on it and it becomes a scary attacker... where as no matter how big you make the other person reese can stop it with the 1/1's he shits out every turn (or artifacts)

it is a bug right now that keeps pterobots cost reduction even in play. your zones do not include the battlefield so while in play it is supposed to cost 7.

poizonous
05-06-2015, 03:48 PM
it is a bug right now that keeps pterobots cost reduction even in play. your zones do not include the battlefield so while in play it is supposed to cost 7.

I have never once heard this, can you source that because the Battlefield should be considered a zone

Scammanator
05-06-2015, 03:52 PM
I have never once heard this, can you source that because the Battlefield should be considered a zone

It is a zone, but it's a shared zone, as is the chain, so it's not one of your zones.

https://hextcg.com/templating-improvements/


Fahrny and Pterobot were made for each other, but because Pterobot doesn’t cost 7 in play, we seldom see the Dwarf and Robot work together. Therefore, we’re fixing Pterobot to work in all your zones. Your zones are: your deck, your graveyard, your hand, and your underground, which means Pterobot will cost 7 while in play and on the chain, allowing the duo to work in tandem as intended from the start.

poizonous
05-06-2015, 04:07 PM
It is a zone, but it's a shared zone, as is the chain, so it's not one of your zones.

Wow, and suddenly parallel evolution would have a home in a Wild Robot deck and make automatic eternal guardians.

Jonesy
05-06-2015, 05:36 PM
I keep hearing in this thread how bad ramp decks are and how wild is bad at stall yet in the last big tournament there were multiple wild/ruby ramp stall decks in the top 8 and one made it to the finals. That said I don't know if this card is worth including in those decks...

whiteyzz
05-06-2015, 07:18 PM
I keep hearing in this thread how bad ramp decks are and how wild is bad at stall yet in the last big tournament there were multiple wild/ruby ramp stall decks in the top 8 and one made it to the finals. That said I don't know if this card is worth including in those decks...

Green/Red Generally doesn't stall they ramp up mana quickly and blow their low. Green and Red dont have any good stall cards

Blue has a turn 1 drop that blocks things up to Turn 4-5ish
Dragon Guard Stalwart is another great person who stalls
Black has blood Cauldron Ritualist (he's kinda late and he noms a minion) but he's a 5/5
Green has running the cocoon who is kinda to late by the time you get him (aka 3 green resources)

Jinxies
05-06-2015, 11:56 PM
If your running white/blue
1. Again she's pretty slow and saps you of all your mana leaving you with 0 control
2. Most likely would've won with inspiring stronger flyers before she comes out

again that's the problem you run 1 because

1. You don't want her in your opening hand
2. You don't want her to be drawn before 8 mana
Well to be fair she also demands an immediate board wipe and draws you a bunch of cards if they do. Sure Countermagic is a pain but that can be played around. With the massive card draw you get from a Blessing Mirror-Knight deck getting to 8 mana is a cakewalk.

There's nothing wrong with running 1-ofs, my most well opted decks in most card games have few 4(or 3 depending on the game) of cards. The deck also runs one King Gabriel and one Prophet of Lodegan if I remember correctly, I just got back in the game this week after a bit of a hiatus.

desk
05-07-2015, 04:37 AM
I am sure its just me and quite petty but I can't get through posts that don't use the correct name for the resources/thresholds. Its not a fan boy thing, its just once my brain made the switch and I stopped doing it myself it now bothers me every time I see it.

ossuary
05-07-2015, 04:46 AM
I am sure its just me and quite petty but I can't get through posts that don't use the correct name for the resources/thresholds. Its not a fan boy thing, its just once my brain made the switch and I stopped doing it myself it now bothers me every time I see it.

Tell me about it. I tend to completely ignore anyone's opinion who can't even be bothered to use the correct terms, since they're obviously so inexperienced with the game they couldn't possibly know what they're talking about. ;)

Then again, my monkeysphere is extremely small, so it doesn't take much of anything to get on my "list." :)

incitfulmonk21
05-07-2015, 07:08 AM
Tell me about it. I tend to completely ignore anyone's opinion who can't even be bothered to use the correct terms, since they're obviously so inexperienced with the game they couldn't possibly know what they're talking about. ;)

Then again, my monkeysphere is extremely small, so it doesn't take much of anything to get on my "list." :)

Wow glad I am not the only one. Every time I read a misused term my eyes bleed a little bit. I sadly had to put the op on ignore not because of behavior since his posts are generally not trollish but I just couldn't stand reading his misuse of terms.

plaguedealer
05-07-2015, 07:30 AM
Guys, putting people on ignore and saying they are so inexeperienced they must not know what they are talking about doesn't inspire confidence to the new player. Why not just correct them, or send a pm.

It is alot easier for a new player to think of wild as green not because of mtg, but because it is easier to remember colors. It shouldn't be a mortal sin for a new player to call wild green.

Xenavire
05-07-2015, 07:48 AM
Guys, putting people on ignore and saying they are so inexeperienced they must not know what they are talking about doesn't inspire confidence to the new player. Why not just correct them, or send a pm.

It is alot easier for a new player to think of wild as green not because of mtg, but because it is easier to remember colors. It shouldn't be a mortal sin for a new player to call wild green.

I am pretty sure they mean whiteyzz, who has been around for a year and should know better. If people who have been around for an extended amount of time are too lazy to adapt to the shard names, often they know very little worth listening to (by and large, since most comparisons end up using their own points of reference, namely MTG, which tends to only cause confusion due to all the differences between the two games.)

I do know there are exceptions to the rule, but I can understand people not bothering to listen to months old accounts talking about blue decks (etc).

plaguedealer
05-07-2015, 08:01 AM
I didnt look to see how long he has been around. I don't know it still seems pretty harsh to make negative comments above if the ONLY thing wrong is calling wild green. However, if it is some weird backhand way of comparing hex to mtg, then yea he should be called out.

Xenavire
05-07-2015, 08:13 AM
I didnt look to see how long he has been around. I don't know it still seems pretty harsh to make negative comments above if the ONLY thing wrong is calling wild green. However, if it is some weird backhand way of comparing hex to mtg, then yea he should be called out.

Oh, I agree that it doesn't look great if people claim to ignore people based on poor wording. I was just giving the context that makes it slightly more acceptable.

After all, even a casual player should have adapted to a different phrasing/wording after a year, so it does seem lazy or intentional by that point. :p

KarlMalone
05-07-2015, 08:40 AM
Let's also start ignoring people who use loose when they are trying to spell lose.

ossuary
05-07-2015, 08:47 AM
Let's also start ignoring people who use loose when they are trying to spell lose.

As if I already don't! :D

And FYI to plaguedealer, my previous comments were directed at all people, not just Hex forum users in particular. Occasional or newbie mistakes are totally fine and understandable... repeated failure to learn or adapt to an ongoing situation is not.

But like I said... small monkeysphere. Look it up if you're not familiar with it, it's an interesting read. :)

plaguedealer
05-07-2015, 09:00 AM
I briefly read monkeysphere, I see what you are saying. Obviously social media has caused us to expand our sphere which causes problems for people, but that is life.

whiteyzz
05-07-2015, 10:27 AM
Well to be fair she also demands an immediate board wipe and draws you a bunch of cards if they do. Sure Countermagic is a pain but that can be played around. With the massive card draw you get from a Blessing Mirror-Knight deck getting to 8 mana is a cakewalk.

There's nothing wrong with running 1-ofs, my most well opted decks in most card games have few 4(or 3 depending on the game) of cards. The deck also runs one King Gabriel and one Prophet of Lodegan if I remember correctly, I just got back in the game this week after a bit of a hiatus.

My major gripe is if you don't draw her early the less useful she becomes, where as drawing a Coyotle turn 5 will give you the mana to possibly summon a more powerful creature possibly in your hand... her with correct mana ramp you dropped all your 5 costs and you look like an idiot.

She's great if she's in your starting hand.

Horrendous to draw later in the game.

The lack of any evasion makes her alright if the enemy cant poop out a blocker every turn like shin/hare, and dwarfs (yes you can give her crush but then your running 2-4 more cards which also don't help you ramp up mana or 5+ cost.

poizonous
05-07-2015, 10:29 AM
She isnt horrendous to draw later on. Pupil if drawn late, can set up a potential Eye of Creation Turn, getting you potentially 3 or more high cost troops, and in return giving you 3 or more counters on her, which next turn you can use her ability and get even more troops out. She is not required to be on the field while you are casting your troops, she is required to be on the field when you cast Eye of creation

ossuary
05-07-2015, 10:31 AM
She isnt horrendous to draw later on. Pupil if drawn late, can set up a potential Eye of Creation Turn, getting you potentially 3 or more high cost troops, and in return giving you 3 or more counters on her, which next turn you can use her ability and get even more troops out. She is not required to be on the field while you are casting your troops, she is required to be on the field when you cast Eye of creation

No. She gains counters when you PLAY cards, which means from your hand, not just when a 5+ cost card goes into play. Eye of Creation dropping big troops gives her zero counters, aside from the casting of Eye of Creation itself.

desk
05-07-2015, 10:32 AM
Guys, putting people on ignore and saying they are so inexeperienced they must not know what they are talking about doesn't inspire confidence to the new player. Why not just correct them, or send a pm.

It is alot easier for a new player to think of wild as green not because of mtg, but because it is easier to remember colors. It shouldn't be a mortal sin for a new player to call wild green.

I get the color thing for new people but usually I then see someone call blood the color black which tells me its not a color thing its a mtg thing which is just lazy. If it was a color thing they would refer to blood as purple. I don't always ignore the post but I have trouble getting through if it is long and taking it seriously.

I did it when I first started until I forced my self to learn and use the new terminology.

poizonous
05-07-2015, 10:32 AM
Is that the way it is intended to work Oss?

Edit: Playing a troop with cost 5 or higher is not the same as "Casting" a troop with cost 5 of higher

plaguedealer
05-07-2015, 10:47 AM
My major gripe is if you don't draw her early the less useful she becomes, where as drawing a Coyotle turn 5 will give you the mana to possibly summon a more powerful creature possibly in your hand... her with correct mana ramp you dropped all your 5 costs and you look like an idiot.

She's great if she's in your starting hand.

Horrendous to draw later in the game.

The lack of any evasion makes her alright if the enemy cant poop out a blocker every turn like shin/hare, and dwarfs (yes you can give her crush but then your running 2-4 more cards which also don't help you ramp up mana or 5+ cost.
Ok I have fought the good fight long enough, I agree with some of your argument. I think you might want to say shards rather then mana. That way people know what you are talking about.

Gwaer
05-07-2015, 11:09 AM
It seems to me that they intended her to synergize with eye of creation, I will not be surprised if 5 cost troops put into play by eye buff her. Though I can see why the wording of eye "put troop into play" rather than her wording of "play troop for free" might indicate otherwise. We'll have to see how it's implemented, this is one of those areas where Hex using cards how they're intended regardless of how they're worded might come into play.

whiteyzz
05-07-2015, 11:17 AM
She isnt horrendous to draw later on. Pupil if drawn late, can set up a potential Eye of Creation Turn, getting you potentially 3 or more high cost troops, and in return giving you 3 or more counters on her, which next turn you can use her ability and get even more troops out. She is not required to be on the field while you are casting your troops, she is required to be on the field when you cast Eye of creation

Well The problem with that I find with that is

1. Drop Pupil of Creation
2. Drop Eye of Creation for 7
3. You get 5 5+ cost creatures
4. You wait a turn (hope they don't board wipe)
5. Swing for lethal, as you have 5 creatures who's damage would equal 20+ damage, plus her, Then Lethal. If that isn't lethal and you use her ability, now your further messed up if the next turn if they have a board wipe.

Seeing how a lot of Blood decks run Extinction (Common), and Sapphire run Yesterday (some do but not a lot), Aggro decks have cheap burns to easily deal with her.

I find Eye of creation decks have already won when it goes off, this is just the icing on the cake. If they don't board wipe... and if it's Island and you sink your 8 mana for all that again and with Sapphire good draw powers and Blood decent draw and ability to control your hand your double eye of creation might just put you in a sticky situation where you lost 60% of the creatures in your deck.

To the people who went off topic

Also if your going to act high and mighty when someone says loose instead of lose and ignore them, or use the wrong term to counter someones argument and not reply to it, If this post makes you mad and you don't like me thinking it's a bad card.... there is several other topics, or make a topic on why you think it's so great. This is an argument where people are exchanging ideas sure without the whole deck list we might not know how powerful it is, especially with the glitch of how Pterobot and such she could be an amazing card if I reduce a cards cost by 2 or 3 but when it hits play will it see it as 5 cost? If so I could see how amazing she can become especially if we can lower the cost of spells too?

Imagine if we make certain expensive cards cheaper (it's spells not just creatures), and chain drop them early making her a buff 10/10 Turn 4/5 with onslaught and another card. She would be wonderful with Green/black with Infernal Professor, but as of now we don't really know if that's the case and it possibly might not be the case in which as of right now she looks like an alright to meh card.

I want to argue this card because I want to see other peoples merits and thoughts on this card, and how they back it up and if they can keep backing up the usefulness. I didn't do this to piss people off but learn the merits and downsides of this card. If we all nod our heads and go yep this card is great... yep yey yep, every card made by the Hex team is great. Yep yep Comet storm is a great card, gives my opponent more mana, forces us to play a game of top decking in which if he's blue it will turn into a game of me top decking and him actually having a hand or to black knowing when to make me discard because I'll try to hold onto a card I want, 20$ Card material! Again if you want to argue feel free too, just keep it on subject not based off because I call sapphire/blue or the like because your just trying to derail an argument to make me look like an fool and make my points have no merit of value.

Back to how I see it

For a Beat stick, Jadiim is way better because has evasion and will kill quicker. It also gives you a solid 5/5+X/X blockers against blue flying creatures by the point you've done your trick a single thunder bird would have you dead. But he will kill the opponent more likely then using Pupil of creation. The point where she becomes deadly your early 5 cost drops would've most likely won you the game she's just the icing of the cake.

For an eye of creation ability, it's better to not have your enemies know to prepare their yesterdays and extinctions for sweet sweet profit. Also if you combine the two you make an Extinction/Yesterday just mess your board state twice as much.

Maybe I play too much Sapphire I just hate telegraphing my enemy to prepare their deck for what's to come.

poizonous
05-07-2015, 11:22 AM
Whiteyy you are thinking about the card the wrong way, odds are if you play out the scenario you just said properly, even extinction doesnt scare you. You probably got Rootfathers with Direct Damage in that deck, Fist of Briggadons (Extinction destroyer) , and a ton other troops that dont scare from extinction, even Azurefates gemmed to give everyone else direct damage.... Come to think of it, I probably shouldnt give me deck list away lol

plaguedealer
05-07-2015, 11:26 AM
There are going to be bad legendary cards. I wouldn't call pupil bad, but it probably wont see any constructed play and I am not sure if I would use it in limited. It could be a great pve card if the equipment reduces the one shot ability, etc.

There are multiple bad legendaries in both set 1 and set 2, that is kind of the nature of the beast. Many card games have certain cards that have a high rariety, but are not all that great. I am pretty sure lady shimmer was one of the first spoiled set 2 cards, which is a not so great card.

I will say the art is fantastic, and it would look beautiful if it was animated.

whiteyzz
05-07-2015, 11:48 AM
There are going to be bad legendary cards. I wouldn't call pupil bad, but it probably wont see any constructed play and I am not sure if I would use it in limited. It could be a great pve card if the equipment reduces the one shot ability, etc.

There are multiple bad legendaries in both set 1 and set 2, that is kind of the nature of the beast. Many card games have certain cards that have a high rariety, but are not all that great. I am pretty sure lady shimmer was one of the first spoiled set 2 cards, which is a not so great card.

I will say the art is fantastic, and it would look beautiful if it was animated.

Again I never said she was horrible, but I never said she was great... I find the deck they wanted to put her in (eye of creation) you have to take from already good cards, and she doesn't help with the mana ramp you need. And if you use her as a beat stick Jadiim serves that role better. as you've done lethal with two 5+ costs. I find she's an alright card it's just hard to place her in a eye of creation deck because usually you win when you use eye of creation... or they board wipe and she's dead with everything. If you use her in a non eye of creation deck she's a beat stick that you might get early, but early on she cant block much. Mono Red Ridge Raider orc will generally be a 2/2, black orcs would have a 2/2, green generally has the 0/2 with rage, blue doesn't really have that much other then cavern guard and gear smith instantly outlives it's usefulness and can take it out and white I guess is the only one with turn 1 drops who wouldn't really attack right away. If i was running an eye of creation I would rather run into a Howling brave. If I was trying to run her as a beat stick, Jadiim does a way better job because he has evasion


Whiteyy you are thinking about the card the wrong way, odds are if you play out the scenario you just said properly, even extinction doesnt scare you. You probably got Rootfathers with Direct Damage in that deck, Fist of Briggadons (Extinction destroyer) , and a ton other troops that dont scare from extinction, even Azurefates gemmed to give everyone else direct damage.... Come to think of it, I probably shouldnt give me deck list away lol And with that general Idea... would you even need her you just most likely killed them all with those creatures and not her is what I'm going at. She's just there pretending to be useful. It seems the Azurefate + Rootfather if they see each other would it just double damage and lethal? (also how do you split up the direct damage between the two because I'm sure you can only have four of each gem in a deck) But going against a black/white deck your hand would have to hold up to the scrutiny of a vampire changing a lot of your shit into life drain/flying creatures and having exile removal for your fisties... but again would you run her in a deck where you most likely won when you've dropped all those?

whiteyzz
05-07-2015, 11:59 AM
-Accidental Double post-

poizonous
05-07-2015, 12:02 PM
incorrect again. Hypothetical situation, you are playing against Blood Sapphire Control... Pupil serves a role of being a non counterable Eye of Creation. Your opponent can most likely Verdict your EoC, so your pupil serves as a reliable source. Plus the fact that tunneling in huge troops, the fact that 1/2 the set of elves might help bring out 5 cost troops faster. Pupil as of now is very resourceful, and can only get better with more of the set known

ossuary
05-07-2015, 12:06 PM
Is that the way it is intended to work Oss?

Edit: Playing a troop with cost 5 or higher is not the same as "Casting" a troop with cost 5 of higher

Yes. "Play"ing a card is a specific mechanical term for the game engine. It means paying its cost and casting it from your hand. The only exception to this is when you play something for free, which is identical to playing it except you don't have to pay its cost. It still has to come from your hand to count as being played.

This can be a little confusing, because unfortunately the warzone is also referred to as "in play," so people naturally assume that putting something into play counts as playing it, but that is incorrect. I'd like to see this wording clarified, to prevent confusion. I think it's also further complicated by the fact that people refer to playing cards as "casting" them, which is actually the MTG wording. Hex doesn't use this terminology anywhere. You don't cast spells or cards in Hex, you only play them.

So, for Pupil of Creation, only playing cards from your hand qualifies to give her counters. Playing a card for free would still count, but playing a card whose cost was reduced to 0 by something would not. Putting cards directly into play does not count, nor would something like Jankbot that pulls them from your deck and puts them onto the field. I'm not sure on whether or not a tunneled card surfacing would count, as I have not tested that specific mechanic - anyone know off the top of their head if a surfacing troop buffs Jadiim? It'd be the same for Pupil of Creation based on what Jadiim does.

All that being said, it's a spoiled card, and the wording or functionality could change before release. But based on how it's currently worded, playing Eye of Creation would give her a counter (as long as you did X for 2 or more), but the troops it puts into play would not give her extra counters.

whiteyzz
05-07-2015, 12:17 PM
Yes. "Play"ing a card is a specific mechanical term for the game engine. It means paying its cost and casting it from your hand. The only exception to this is when you play something for free, which is identical to playing it except you don't have to pay its cost. It still has to come from your hand to count as being played.

This can be a little confusing, because unfortunately the warzone is also referred to as "in play," so people naturally assume that putting something into play counts as playing it, but that is incorrect. I'd like to see this wording clarified, to prevent confusion. I think it's also further complicated by the fact that people refer to playing cards as "casting" them, which is actually the MTG wording. Hex doesn't use this terminology anywhere. You don't cast spells or cards in Hex, you only play them.

So, for Pupil of Creation, only playing cards from your hand qualifies to give her counters. Playing a card for free would still count, but playing a card whose cost was reduced to 0 by something would not. Putting cards directly into play does not count, nor would something like Jankbot that pulls them from your deck and puts them onto the field. I'm not sure on whether or not a tunneled card surfacing would count, as I have not tested that specific mechanic - anyone know off the top of their head if a surfacing troop buffs Jadiim? It'd be the same for Pupil of Creation based on what Jadiim does.

All that being said, it's a spoiled card, and the wording or functionality could change before release. But based on how it's currently worded, playing Eye of Creation would give her a counter (as long as you did X for 2 or more), but the troops it puts into play would not give her extra counters.

So all the creatures you would throw with eye of creation wouldn't buff it out, or creatures you reduce their cost wouldn't count towards her ability if I made a 5 cost 3 with Spirit Dance? I'll test right now with Jadiim.

Tested- Jadiim See's Tunnelers but doesn't see Mammoth Squirrel Titan who I put into play with a charge ability

ossuary
05-07-2015, 12:23 PM
So all the creatures you would throw with eye of creation wouldn't buff it out, or creatures you reduce their cost wouldn't count towards her ability if I made a 5 cost 3 with Spirit Dance? I'll test right now with Jadiim.

Correct on both counts. Let me know about Jadiim. :)

whiteyzz
05-07-2015, 12:39 PM
Correct on both counts. Let me know about Jadiim. :)

Tunneling does work but with current tunneling creatures he would have to be in a shin'hare tunneling deck where as pupil I don't see that many great tunnelers with +5 cost. Honestly the tunnelers are

Tectonic Megahulk: Tunneling 15 (Way to slow)
Bucktooth Roshi : Tunneling 4 (+2/+2 and crush to all shinhares)
Excavation Hulk : Tunneling 4 (4/4)
Launchpad Specialist : Tunneling 3 (gives a creature +1/+1 and flying) [This is one good one]
Mesmeric Hypnotist : Tunneling 3 (creature cant block) [Eeeeh he's alright, he is a 5/2 with speed)
Subterranean Spy : Tunneling 2 (See there hand) [He's alright but he's a 2/3)
Reese: Tunneling 4 (It's Reese)

Actually quick question while Reese is tunneled do i get 1/1's or is it only when he hits the fields. It's always put me on the field of buying him as I'm not 100% sure, I also never really see him.

sukebe
05-07-2015, 02:18 PM
Tunneling does work but with current tunneling creatures he would have to be in a shin'hare tunneling deck where as pupil I don't see that many great tunnelers with +5 cost. Honestly the tunnelers are

Tectonic Megahulk: Tunneling 15 (Way to slow)
Bucktooth Roshi : Tunneling 4 (+2/+2 and crush to all shinhares)
Excavation Hulk : Tunneling 4 (4/4)
Launchpad Specialist : Tunneling 3 (gives a creature +1/+1 and flying) [This is one good one]
Mesmeric Hypnotist : Tunneling 3 (creature cant block) [Eeeeh he's alright, he is a 5/2 with speed)
Subterranean Spy : Tunneling 2 (See there hand) [He's alright but he's a 2/3)
Reese: Tunneling 4 (It's Reese)

Actually quick question while Reese is tunneled do i get 1/1's or is it only when he hits the fields. It's always put me on the field of buying him as I'm not 100% sure, I also never really see him.

you only get the 1/1's when he is on the field, not when he is tunneled

whiteyzz
05-07-2015, 02:30 PM
you only get the 1/1's when he is on the field, not when he is tunneledAh thanks, I just never really seen him played. So now let me get the facts straight from here

1. Tunneling counts, but unless it's Reese / and Launchpad Specialist they don't seem that worth it

2. Eye of Creation as the spell if X is 3 will count as a charge but +5 cost are put into play, and not played so they don't count to her +2/+2

3. Charge abilities that put cards into play also don't count

So purely from what I see right now is this

1. You have to get her out early to buff her up

2. If you don't have her in your starting hand and you start dropping 5 costs she becomes less effective

3.If you get her the turn you could drop a 5 cost, you have to delay all your mana ramp for her giving your enemy an extra turn of damage to you / preparation.

4. If you try to use eye of sun to drop a 5+ cost then use her ability people can react to it and you cant do anything as it's at basic speed. That's the one thing that just makes me hate her... that basic speed

5. Reverting her to use her ability again would only cause her to become a 1/1 with 0 charges

Again how I see her is a great card to have in your starting hand but the later into the game you get her the less useful she becomes, and something like a howling later on might give you the mana you need for Eye of creation or to drop a 9/10 cost...

poizonous
05-07-2015, 02:32 PM
Tunnelers I find effective with Pupil

Reese, Launchpad, Mesmeric Hypnoscientist, Scraptech Brawler... Brawler of course giving you more mana ramp

whiteyzz
05-07-2015, 02:39 PM
Tunnelers I find effective with Pupil

Reese, Launchpad, Mesmeric Hypnoscientist, Scraptech Brawler... Brawler of course giving you more mana ramp

Reese/Launchpad/Mesmeric Work, and yeah the scraptech is one time mana ramp which is pretty good, but at the same time if you use her as a beat stick... you could do it WAY better with Jadiim

Jadiim has Evasion built into him and his damage is higher in general till you drop 5 +5 cost creatures, where this you have to buff it with crush. Heck Jadiim could be a logical choice as tunneling a roshi makes him a 12/12 + he gives you a way to deal with flying creatures in a shin hare deck.

Also don't forget Subterranean Spy, lets you see the enemies hand... it lets you know if they have anything that can stop what you have in hand, or what to apply your control on.

For a one drop bruiser the 0/2 with rage 1 is a better drop because each turn he swings he just becomes a bigger and bigger beat stick and when they can kill him you just sit back and go COME AT ME BRO I have 4/2 who can kill what ever you swing at me with! (though the ronnin will generaly die turn 2/3, but a 1 drop that can trade with 1-4 cost drops is pretty strong if you drop him out

whiteyzz
05-07-2015, 02:44 PM
--Second Double Post, Tremors strikes again with the edit and reply button being too close!--

ossuary
05-07-2015, 04:20 PM
The only real advantage with Pupil over Jadiim is that she drops earlier and keeps her buffs permanently. If you played both in the same deck it would be fine to play Pupil first (plus she's not unique). But really, any time outside of the first 1-2 turns, she's a dead draw you'd hate to see vs. something actually playable on its own.

The best possible play for her would be:

T1 wild shard, howling brave
T2 wild shard, puck, pupil
T3 wild shard, start dropping 5 costs, swing for 3 with pupil.

It's still a pretty weak early game play... maybe we'll get new and better ramp with set 3 that you can use same turn or something (as opposed to brave / chloro which cost more than they give the turn you play them). That could make a difference.

Whye
05-07-2015, 04:46 PM
I am glad when a legendary is not constructed playable. I hope they continue this with the rest of set 3 Legendaries.

It's frustrating when there are Legs that are staple 4-ofs in each shard. Rare and below is where constructed playable should stay.

poizonous
05-07-2015, 05:56 PM
I am glad when a legendary is not constructed playable. I hope they continue this with the rest of set 3 Legendaries.

It's frustrating when there are Legs that are staple 4-ofs in each shard. Rare and below is where constructed playable should stay.

I seriously contemplated not responding to this as I am sure someone would answer it much politer than myself. If Legendaries were all non constructed playable, two things would happen. 1) There would be no need for the rarity 2) The cost of Rares would go up higher, NEITHER of these are good for the game

KarlMalone
05-07-2015, 05:57 PM
Couldn't we potentially see an allegiance ability that reduces the cost of a troop while in hand? That seems like it would work really well with this card.

Jeevus
05-08-2015, 05:42 AM
What all here seem to forget is that his +2/+2 effect procs off cards, not only troops.

Xenavire
05-08-2015, 05:46 AM
What all here seem to forget is that his +2/+2 effect procs off cards, not only troops.

This is a fair point - you could chain mastery to swing for lethal with the right board state, yesterday and throw it out again, even drop something crazy like chimes and get a bonus out of it.

Definitely better than just troops, but not by a whole lot when you consider how few decent 5+ cost actions/artifacts/constants there are.

ossuary
05-08-2015, 06:16 AM
What all here seem to forget is that his +2/+2 effect procs off cards, not only troops.

I didn't. Hence my comment that playing Eye of Creation itself gives you a counter (but the troops it puts into play don't).

Jeevus
05-08-2015, 06:18 AM
Yup. I just wanted to state that there is abit more to it than people are discussing right now. And you already mentioned some cards. You could even use Shoggoth and for example zodiac divination with the pupil to build a controlish w/s, as long as you can fix the threshhold effectively.

And we have yet to see the majority of set3 ;)

ossuary
05-08-2015, 07:01 AM
I'd never go so far to say it would never see play. And I do think it could be a nice early threat in an existing Eye of Creation deck, though it runs the risk of being a useless draw/play/EoC hit late in the game. But it's definitely another fringe, near-useless legendary, of which we sadly already have a great deal of. I would like to see more playable cards in this category - not money cards or must-haves, but just cards that are more utilitarian that don't make you feel cheated when you open them (especially in one of those uber valuable and rare primal packs).

Personally, I don't like the fact that I feel like I'm wasting money by opening a primal pack instead of selling it. That's a horrible feeling. I WANT to want to open them... but right now, I just don't. And that's tragic.

Jeevus
05-08-2015, 07:10 AM
I'd never go so far to say it would never see play. And I do think it could be a nice early threat in an existing Eye of Creation deck, though it runs the risk of being a useless draw/play/EoC hit late in the game. But it's definitely another fringe, near-useless legendary, of which we sadly already have a great deal of. I would like to see more playable cards in this category - not money cards or must-haves, but just cards that are more utilitarian that don't make you feel cheated when you open them (especially in one of those uber valuable and rare primal packs).

Personally, I don't like the fact that I feel like I'm wasting money by opening a primal pack instead of selling it. That's a horrible feeling. I WANT to want to open them... but right now, I just don't. And that's tragic.


I don't think at all the card is useless or a money grabber. The very fact that it grows when you play your fatties is worth it. You don't have to resolve your 5 cost card, it just needs to be played. What does that mean? You need a removal for that sweetheart unless you want to face some big problems in the early midgame to late game.

I am not saying that's a format-defining legendary, but there are quite some options with her. And let's not forget we know almost nothing about the upcoming set. It's way too early to devalue a 1 drop that has more than enough potenial to be a threat in (and ofc against) the right deck.

MatWith1T
05-08-2015, 07:21 AM
It's a card to keep the Johnny's busy. It's cool, it's fun, it's different, but it's a bad card for a legendary...And that's fine. 'Junk' legends keep the chase legends valuable. Good rares > bad legends, and that's good... Otherwise T1 decks would be a question of who owns all the legendary card, which isn't fun.

whiteyzz
05-08-2015, 10:47 AM
Couldn't we potentially see an allegiance ability that reduces the cost of a troop while in hand? That seems like it would work really well with this card.

We've answered this if it reduces the cost under 5 while in hand, Jadiim will see it as a 3 cost being spent. Which means in return you've only played a 3 cost.

Her effect is when you play it how much mana you payed for, 5 or over is a charge. If Reduced under 5 by any means then you get 0 charges.


I don't think at all the card is useless or a money grabber. The very fact that it grows when you play your fatties is worth it. You don't have to resolve your 5 cost card, it just needs to be played. What does that mean? You need a removal for that sweetheart unless you want to face some big problems in the early midgame to late game.

I am not saying that's a format-defining legendary, but there are quite some options with her. And let's not forget we know almost nothing about the upcoming set. It's way too early to devalue a 1 drop that has more than enough potenial to be a threat in (and ofc against) the right deck.

She's a great 1 drop if she's in your hand or the first/second card you draw~ With the proper mana ramp you should by Turn 3 have 5 mana. Heres the problem if you get her Turn 3 and your not first your in a lot of trouble. You cant block with Her / Howling Braves / Puck / and have the mana ramp next turn... but if you do you slow her down and you will pretty much be a turn 4, 5 cost and you will be in that shitty position...

Orcs could've dropped a Ridge Raider a Gortezuma dishing out

Turn 2 = 2 Damage
Turn 3 = 4 Damage
Turn 4 = 5 Damage, Your under 10 you now have a constant invincible Gortezuma swinging at you and your at 9 HP?

Then you want to use her ability, You activ- murder... Whoops you wasted 8 mana this turn try again later or let it activate and use extinction / yesterday.

the_artic_one
05-08-2015, 01:13 PM
Then you want to use her ability, You activ- murder... Whoops you wasted 8 mana this turn try again later or let it activate and use extinction / yesterday.

Would murdering in response to the activation actually stop it? Cards retain counters in the graveyard so I feel like it would still go off.

Xenavire
05-08-2015, 01:17 PM
If pupil is on the chain, murder wouldn't stop it. Murdering before they put it on the chain would certainly hurt though.

whiteyzz
05-10-2015, 01:04 AM
If pupil is on the chain, murder wouldn't stop it. Murdering before they put it on the chain would certainly hurt though. Again they can kill it before it hit's main phase with a quick action. But in all honesty for the mana you would need to have 5 charges before it becomes worth it's cost.

But lets look at the new cards are actually kinda amazing

Tribal Warfare = Great Creature removal in Red Aggro

Mind Rake = Eh, but honestly a hand discard in a shin ha're deck.

Ozawa's Dance = Wording kinda fucks it up with what is in your deck but a pretty amazing card.

Cerulean High Councelor = He seems meh but think inspire decks like blue/red him getting hit by multiple Jags, +2/+0, Swiftstrike, Haste and this will quickly become a nuisance with evasion.

It also gives blue a way to cheat some creatures in. Like Rootfathers (they can use to sift through cards, then when low enough they can drop them). I guess you can also cheat in starving liches...? He's going to get a lot of love if we see any good 5 shards 1 resource creature cards.

Cerulean High Councelor in my thoughts is a way more powerful card in the theme of the deck type. Then Pupil is.

Aka Inspire Decks. Blue/Red with the Prince giving him haste, he becomes a powerhouse inspire card that when ever targeted with a kill spell switches places and the spell fizzles. He also helps mana fix tri elemental decks he's in.

Tachi_The_Lion
05-10-2015, 02:24 AM
THIS CARD SUCKS!

Feel free to pass it to me in draft. ^_^

whiteyzz
05-10-2015, 05:33 PM
THIS CARD SUCKS!

Feel free to pass it to me in draft. ^_^

Buy it from me day 1 for 15$~, how I got rid of 4 of my Ozawa's I had.

Steelio
05-11-2015, 04:56 AM
There has to be powerful common cards in order for the game to thrive. But if all legendaries were bad then HEX would lose that 'oh sweet I just opened a Moss' feel which is common to nearly all TCG's. I think that lots of legendaries should be countered by common cards [and most are.] But it's a pretty poor show for any TCG where most if not all of its T1 cards are the rarest.


I seriously contemplated not responding to this as I am sure someone would answer it much politer than myself. If Legendaries were all non constructed playable, two things would happen. 1) There would be no need for the rarity 2) The cost of Rares would go up higher, NEITHER of these are good for the game

whiteyzz
05-11-2015, 07:12 PM
There has to be powerful common cards in order for the game to thrive. But if all legendaries were bad then HEX would lose that 'oh sweet I just opened a Moss' feel which is common to nearly all TCG's. I think that lots of legendaries should be countered by common cards [and most are.] But it's a pretty poor show for any TCG where most if not all of its T1 cards are the rarest.

I will have to agree with this, Hex actually has some decent commons and the rares are decently prices. No honestly a certain card game that shall not be named has the problem with the key part of your decks, being way too expensive the average Modern deck, for just 21 land will cost you around 300-400$ if it uses 2/3 colours.