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Sparrow
05-10-2015, 08:45 AM
Has there been any discussion on being able to craft potions or runes that give one time buffs? For example, a potion that gives a bonus to gold collected for X amount of time or gives a hero an additional ability. It seems like I've only heard about crafting in reference to equipment -- at least I've only thought about in that way up to now (obv, I haven't thought about it all that much until 2 minutes ago). If someone could point me to a relevant thread I'd appreciate it.

Kurasa
05-10-2015, 09:03 AM
Consumables are definitely part of the plan for crafting. Cory mentioned them in a recent interview (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=42902) and way back in his Q&A thread (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=38969&page=28&p=429812#post429812). That said I don't think we know anything about what the consumables will look like yet.

Sparrow
05-10-2015, 09:07 AM
Alright, great. I haven't been excited about PVE at all, but now my interest is piqued.

Aradon
05-10-2015, 04:48 PM
I'd like to see consumables that buff either a single encounter or a dungeon run, rather than a timed period, since that was briefly mentioned.

But I'd also be interested in consumable cards like Spectral Lotus that just go in your deck (maybe not counting towards the minimum 60) that provide powerful temporary boosts. Not sure about this idea, but these as pve rewards seems cool. However, I'd hate to see them unbalance certain raids where you just stockpile consumables. I think there's room to tinker with it, though.

Rycajo
05-10-2015, 05:27 PM
That said I don't think we know anything about what the consumables will look like yet.

What are people hoping for in consumables?

IMO, anything that has a direct impact on a match would need to be limited. By limited, I mean more along how many consumables are usable for one match or over the course of the dungeon; I.E. if a consumable exists that can instantly give the player back some health, I wouldn't want that consumable to be spammable like D2 health potions.

Allowing anything outside the traditional deck building will take some getting used to for old TCG players. I don't see why filling out a "Belt" of consumables at the start of a dungeon wouldn't be an awesome addition to the traditional formula.

Question: would people want consumables only usable at the start of a match (going into a boss fight, quaff that potion that lets you start with a Command Tower in play, etc) or do people expect consumables to be used throughout a match when it makes the most sense (I didn't know I would need extra health going into the fight, but 7 rounds in I figure I can probably win if I can just regain 5 lost health, so I then use a health potion). I kinda hope both kinds are available

What kinds of consumables would be worth making? What temporary boosts are people hoping for?

In particular, assuming crafting reagents are created based on the item destroyed to make the item (complete assumption), what consumable/temporary benefit would be worth the destruction of a rare or legendary card? Seems like the boost would have to be pretty great to be worth it.

Mejis
05-10-2015, 06:14 PM
I personally would rather consumables are just used pre-match, like buffs mentioned above (plus the examples we already see in Arena if you beat the challenges), rather than something that affects gameplay within a match. I think for the latter in PvE, having equipment is already a wondrous thing that modifies the TCG formula just the right amount.
Also, being able to use a consumable pre-match opens up that nice element of luck/chance (should I use this now? Maybe, but what if I happen to breeze through this encounter), rather than waiting upon the optimal moment to use it.

I dunno, that's just my gut reaction. It may change once we know exactly what consumables are.

Mejis
05-10-2015, 06:15 PM
But I'd also be interested in consumable cards like Spectral Lotus that just go in your deck (maybe not counting towards the minimum 60) that provide powerful temporary boosts. Not sure about this idea, but these as pve rewards seems cool. However, I'd hate to see them unbalance certain raids where you just stockpile consumables. I think there's room to tinker with it, though.

Despite what I said in my previous post, I do love this idea.

Kurasa
05-10-2015, 09:29 PM
I envisioned consumables as usable during a match, like one-shot charge powers. There would have to be some limitation to keep things reasonable. I like Rycajo's 'belt' idea. Along with choosing a deck, you could choose consumables to bring to a dungeon or raid up to the capacity of the belt. That also opens of the possibility of being able to refill empty slots in the belt with consumables found during a dungeon run, which could be cool. More consumable cards along the lines of Spectral Lotus also sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure I'm as enthusiastic about consumables used pre-match to provide some kind of buff, but doesn't mean there couldn't be some great ideas in that space.

Ultimately I'd like to see a wide range of consumables that work in different ways with a variety of effects, so that we can tailor our choices to different dungeons and deck choices. Maybe we need some added punch for a boss fight, or maybe some extra durability. Maybe we just need to our deck to be a bit more flexible in case we run into a particular encounter.

Effects like "Gain X health" or "Draw a card" or "Buff a troop" are fine, but I hope we see a lot more than that. How about a variety of potions that transform a troop into a completely different troop you wouldn't normally see? Or a sleeping potion that exhausts a troop and removes its abilities for a couple turns? How about a seed that grows into a plant with some ability or effect after you use it, and the plant adds more seeds to your deck that can become plants in turn? It seems like there could be room for a lot of different effects ranging from the mundane to the wacky to the crazy powerful, so long as there are limitations in place to keep players from breezing through dungeons just by throwing consumables at them. Rarity and crafting expense is a factor here, too. Powerful consumables should be hard to find and/or expensive to craft, to help discourage players from burning through them willy-nilly to clear content.

Gwaer
05-10-2015, 09:47 PM
In pve I think there could be a lot of room. Consumable to decrease your minimum deck size, consumable that allows more than 4 of a card, consumable that increases your health, or decreases your opponents health, consumable cards that can be put into a deck for a single dungeon, hell, even consumables that alter your deck after the game starts, adding cards to your hand, reordering your deck, letting you view your deck order. These are just off the top of my head, the possibilities seem limitless.

Aradon
05-10-2015, 09:47 PM
To counterbalance my earlier post, I think consumables sound neat, but I would absolutely prefer to be on the safe side against them at all. The last thing I'd want is to see items being sold that are needed for optimal play, like loot boosts. 'Pay to win' isn't really a valid concern, because we're already paying for better cards, so it's pretty much a non-issue, but I'd like to avoid repeating taxes on generic gameplay by needing potions for every dungeon, etc.

On the other hand, if they are obtained only by playing PvE or crafted by PvE only drops, then I suppose they could be limited enough that they don't become commonplace or mandatory.

The other route I would like to see them explore at some point with consumables are items that increase the challenge for better rewards. For example, a 0-cost 'Each opposing champion draws two cards. You get 20% more gold from this encounter' or a 7-cost card that just says 'You get a 50% chance of getting an extra loot drop from this encounter.' Even though it doesn't have any effect, it wastes both your cards and mana. Things like the challenges from the Arena on cards too would be neat optional variables.

Gwaer
05-10-2015, 09:49 PM
As far as I know, there are no plans to sell any consumables for real money, it'll all be for gold/craftable.

I really like the idea of consumables that increase the difficulty for additional rewards, nice.

Rycajo
05-10-2015, 10:47 PM
I like the idea of consumables that increase reward & difficulty. Reward only seems like a weird one. If the consumable costs X gold, and will nearly always provide X + Y gold value in return, then we find ourselves always using that consumable. However, if the number of consumables is limited, I suppose it would still have an opportunity cost.

However, I'm very much opposed to having many consumable cards. It is already hard enough to trim a deck down to 60 cards. Throw in too many OP cards like the Spectral Lotus, and you start to see each and every prime deck containing 4 of each of these OP consumables. At that point my deck is a few resources, the couple of pieces I need for an winning combo, and a bunch of cards that cycle for free. Not a lot of fun.

I want to see something outside our limited TCG mindset - and I think Cory has something in store for us. I don't think they would be re-working PvE over and over again, making the strong "this will blow people's minds" kind of statements if the general rue will always be "60 card deck, limit 4-of each card, draw one card per turn" with a similarly bound opponent.

Xenavire
05-11-2015, 03:07 AM
I think having lots of consumable cards is fine if they put deckbuilding restrictions in place. Only 4x consumable (except lotus, since that doesn't already have the text).

Rycajo
05-11-2015, 08:54 AM
I think having lots of consumable cards is fine if they put deckbuilding restrictions in place. Only 4x consumable (except lotus, since that doesn't already have the text).

That could definitely work. I was also thinking they could make the consumable not count toward the card limit. That way, once the consumable has been used, you still have a legal deck. Otherwise all consumables could really use a transformation effect, like the Spectral Lotus, in order to keep decks from getting smaller each encounter of a dungeon.

Sparrow
05-11-2015, 11:56 AM
What would be simplest from a design perspective is to only allow one or two consumables to be in effect at one time. WoW eventually adopted that and it made things a lot more balanced for encounters.

I sometimes wonder how CZE is going to manage integrating all they've promised while preserving a somewhat challenging experience in PVE. The Arena we have now is ridiculously easy, with the exception of a couple champions that are almost broken in their abilities (looking at you, Warbot!), however not having any restrictions beyond the standard max 4 per card contributes greatly to the ease of play (and the horrendous AI, though I'm sure that will improve).

Saeijou
05-11-2015, 01:52 PM
What would be simplest from a design perspective is to only allow one or two consumables to be in effect at one time. WoW eventually adopted that and it made things a lot more balanced for encounters.

I sometimes wonder how CZE is going to manage integrating all they've promised while preserving a somewhat challenging experience in PVE. The Arena we have now is ridiculously easy, with the exception of a couple champions that are almost broken in their abilities (looking at you, Warbot!), however not having any restrictions beyond the standard max 4 per card contributes greatly to the ease of play (and the horrendous AI, though I'm sure that will improve).

it's not fair to say it is "rediculously easy". start over as a new player and see the outcome... tell me, after what time you got your first 20-0! ;)

Gwaer
05-11-2015, 01:57 PM
I've beaten the arena with every starter deck with no changes, and perfected with 2 of them. I think calling it easy at the moment is fair. Granted, I can't go back to being a brand new player that doesn't know what the cards do, and how the AI currently misplays, and how to take advantage of those misplays. Once the AI is better I feel like the arena will be a decent challenge. At least I am hopeful.

Rycajo
05-11-2015, 02:08 PM
It is interesting that players only find a challenge with those opponents that have "broken" abilities. I have a feeling that we are going to see a lot more PvE stuff that is not fair, and that would be broken in a PvP setting. If the opponents continue to get bonuses or abilities that are outside of what seems fair in a normal TCG scenario, all the better. They need that in order to also allow the player to get new, interesting, powerful abilities.

The aforementioned War Bot is probably the best example of hard things we will need to be able to handle with our decks. You need to have a plan to deal with an opponent that can board wipe for "free" every couple of turns. I expect additional challenging opponent abilities that will shape the way the players need to make their decks.

Sparrow
05-11-2015, 02:57 PM
I've beaten the arena with every starter deck with no changes, and perfected with 2 of them. I think calling it easy at the moment is fair. Granted, I can't go back to being a brand new player that doesn't know what the cards do, and how the AI currently misplays, and how to take advantage of those misplays. Once the AI is better I feel like the arena will be a decent challenge. At least I am hopeful.
There are a number of little things for each champion that could easily be addressed with the AI. For example, Malice Demon not using his special ability on a troop in his graveyard that has an Inner Conflict on it or the couple decks that run Droo's Colossal Walker not suiciding by untapping it or Seaweed Behemoth understanding how to play Storm Cloud (or just replacing Storm Cloud with something else) or general improvement in the method by which the AI selects a troop to target with removal. I'm more than hopeful (confident, actually) that it's going to improve greatly with just some small tweaks.