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nicosharp
05-12-2015, 11:07 AM
I understand that you want to buy gold.
New players want to sell it.
That's great! It's a win-win right?

Well, maybe...

Right now the gold per plat ratio offered has dropped in trade-chat from 1:150 last week, to 1:70 at times this week.

This means on average a player is making slightly more than double for their time investing in and trading for gold.
http://hexprice.com/GoldPlat

Let's take a look back using this helpful historical chart at some key-dates that caused large spikes in the gold-to-plat market place:

March 5th - Thursday - Hex Update - Large free tournament stress test for March 7th - Most rewards for this tournament hit accounts on March 9th. Look at the AH gold-to-plat spike.

April 17th - Friday - Hex Update - Free Draft Extension + and Last VIP Tournament times announced for the Goremaster/Cluck AA's: Gold had hit a high since the Arena Launch. Could it be that this Friday Update drove more interest in the Auction House and trade? Ultimately driving gold value back down, and plat value up?

Finally - May 8th - Friday - Hex Update - AA's in the store will be leaving soon to make-way for new AA's. Huge down-shift in gold-to-plat ratios following.

Now, I'm not saying don't spend plat on gold due to market forces at work here. What I am saying is, the more money that is spent on gold now when the ratios are low will further decrease our collections value until a large number of new players enter the economy.
Why?
Because... When you allow a new demographic of players to freely enter the economy, at a very marginal commitment, you also allow the consumption of packs to increase. Thus increasing the active supply of high tier cards being traded on the AH. Which will in-turn decrease the overall price they are selling for.

Why is this not a win-win? Well from a holistic perspective of care-bear share this is stupendous! However, if whales and all players would like to have their collections worth more, the trick is to hold your $ and buy gold when the rate is more favorable for the individual holding the plat. Ultimately, someone is buying the plat, which is great, but more hands are using that plat to stretch it further and turn it into free product.

If a lucky individual hits Uruu in a run. He can make about 106,500 in gold in 1 hour. That is essentially giving that player 1521 plat right now. Not factoring the other loot obtained.

How do others feel about the current economy, and how easily an update has been manipulating exchange?

israel.kendall
05-12-2015, 11:12 AM
March Spike was caused by Frost Ring launch, I do believe.

nicosharp
05-12-2015, 11:25 AM
March Spike was caused by Frost Ring launch, I do believe.
I thought as much as well. Just couldn't find the update/link to it.

hex_colin
05-12-2015, 11:33 AM
AA's in the store will be leaving soon to make-way for new AA's.

To be clear the update doesn't say anything about new AAs. It just says the existing AAs will be removed soon. "bigger things" could be anything... Set 3? A new, more insidious, Gold sink? Who knows? ;)

Also, more generally, you can't read anything into the volatility of Gold prices now with so many of the faucets and sinks missing. It's just not worthwhile worrying about a market anomaly brought on by fear of scarcity.

nicosharp
05-12-2015, 11:37 AM
To be clear the update doesn't say anything about new AAs. It just says the existing AAs will be removed soon. "bigger things" could be anything... Set 3? A new, more insidious, Gold sink? Who knows? ;)

Also, more generally, you can't read anything into the volatility of Gold prices now with so many of the faucets and sinks missing. It's just not worthwhile worrying about a market anomaly brought on by fear of scarcity.
Fair enough. I would like to see the new Gold sinks. I also agree with you about faucets/sinks missing, but more importantly, game-play missing to drive the interest in PvE where Gold is acquired. I'm sure boredom of the grind is a huge factor here as well, for those hoarding and purchasing Gold.

Mokog
05-12-2015, 11:50 AM
We can not infer long term trends but we can evaluate short term incentives. We are just before a new set with news of a desired asset being available for a limited time. Gold comes from arena at a rate of about 6700 every hour per active player. Every player needs 600,000 gold for a playset of the AA + their chests + new cards. Demand is high and there is now a single source of new gold.

When you add it up gold should be destroyed faster than it is generated until most players have their AA playset complete. The news about the AA just accelerated that trend.

I guess this is a classic market shock.

plaguedealer
05-12-2015, 12:08 PM
If you want to trade plat for gold in order to buy aa cards that might spike in value in a year, good for you. I wouldn't consider that person a whale by a longshot. Almost by definition a whale pretty much doesn't care if plat-gold value changes unless it is extreme.

I hope gold stays valuable, it is healthy for the game. When chests are able to be opened the value might increase.

Salverus
05-12-2015, 12:15 PM
Every player needs 600,000 gold for a playset of the AA + their chests + new cards.

I highly doubt all active players are going for a full playset. For example i find sappers charge a useless card that i never add to any of my decks, so i am not going to buy those AA's. Only maybe the top 5% of the rich / active players might go for a full playset, the rest just a few they can afford, or none at all and simply sell them for profits.
Since farming the arena for 600k gold is not what almost none of us can do alone, thats most likely more than 100 arena runs, counting in the losses against xarlox and such as well.

israel.kendall
05-12-2015, 12:33 PM
Also, more generally, you can't read anything into the volatility of Gold prices now with so many of the faucets and sinks missing. It's just not worthwhile worrying about a market anomaly brought on by fear of scarcity.

New faucets and sinks bring more volatility, along with various news and events causing volatility in gold value. It is something that must be paid very close attention to if someone wants to profit on the market. I consider it a quite worthwhile thing to worry over personally.

http://cdn.cstatic.net/partners/2013/misc/whale-week-140x140.png

hammer
05-12-2015, 01:05 PM
Related whales will want primal chests:

To get a primal chest on average requires 250k gold which are current market rates is over 3000plat

The chance to single upgrade a chest is 12% and double upgrade 3% so either you are double upgrading rares or single upgrading legendaries either way if there is an exclusive AA in the primal chests whales will want 4 of each. We don't even know the drop rate but assume the top AA is always in the primal chest otherwise it will get crazy expensive for that playset - right ? on this basis alone I fell gold prices will continue to improve unless new taps are forthcoming ...

Tazelbain
05-12-2015, 01:14 PM
How do others feel about the current economy, and how easily an update has been manipulating exchange?
I like it. I hope they leave the AA in the store for another 3 months. All the speculators get burned and newbie make bank.

israel.kendall
05-12-2015, 01:23 PM
I like it. I hope they leave the AA in the store for another 3 months. All the speculators get burned and newbie make bank.

Evil man, why you want to burn people? Both newbies and speculators can make bank.

israel.kendall
05-12-2015, 01:33 PM
Hey Nico, I think you are actually looking at the charts wrong. You said: "April 17th - Friday - Hex Update - Free Draft Extension + and Last VIP Tournament times announced for the Goremaster/Cluck AA's: Gold had hit a low since the Arena Launch. Could it be that this Friday Update drove more interest in the Auction House and trade?"

Gold was not at a low on April 17, it was at 81:1 on that chart you linked, a high. The March spike in gold value started on March 25, for example.

nicosharp
05-12-2015, 01:37 PM
Ahh, yes, I've fixed the OP. You are right, the way it reads is wrong.

Mokog
05-12-2015, 05:51 PM
I highly doubt all active players are going for a full playset. For example i find sappers charge a useless card that i never add to any of my decks, so i am not going to buy those AA's. Only maybe the top 5% of the rich / active players might go for a full playset, the rest just a few they can afford, or none at all and simply sell them for profits.
Since farming the arena for 600k gold is not what almost none of us can do alone, thats most likely more than 100 arena runs, counting in the losses against xarlox and such as well.

I have found with the TCG fan base, generally if a playset is in your reach you want it and/or aspire to it. Though a full playset may seem an immediate impossibility, consistent effort and smart moves put it in everyone's reach, just like draft, the arena or any good game. You just have to work through the shard screw/flood. :-P

Valnir
05-13-2015, 01:06 AM
It surely good for new players/ free to play gamers, that they can make plat. It is also good for someone, who want to make profint in long term to buy the limited cards, but other for other rares/uncommons... i dont know.. it is hard to sell a less used rare for gold, the other thing effects this is, that the AH is flooded by arena uncommons. Anyway it is all good for players who want to make profit with common AAs, but other cards lost value for sure

Khazrakh
05-13-2015, 02:33 AM
I don't see why any cards would lose in value because of what is happening right now.
Sure you get less gold for platin, but that doesn't change the platin value of a card.
Since 100p are always 1$ simply because that's what you have to pay to get it I don't see a problem either way.
Gold will always be a lot more volatile and where the most short term value is to be gained or lost but that doesn't influence the long term value of platin and/or cards.

Valnir
05-13-2015, 02:46 AM
I don't see why any cards would lose in value because of what is happening right now.
Sure you get less gold for platin, but that doesn't change the platin value of a card.
Since 100p are always 1$ simply because that's what you have to pay to get it I don't see a problem either way.
Gold will always be a lot more volatile and where the most short term value is to be gained or lost but that doesn't influence the long term value of platin and/or cards.

Yes, you are perfectly right, but im talking about the gold price in short term. On the long run I dont think gold / plat ratio will stay like this, but noone can be sure, becouse so many other things influence the market.

Mourad13
05-13-2015, 05:21 AM
According to me one easy solution: make urunaz encounter less rare maybe double or triple the % appearance...

Xenavire
05-13-2015, 05:34 AM
According to me one easy solution: make urunaz encounter less rare maybe double or triple the % appearance...

They could increase the appearance rate if they lowered the rewards. But that kind of defeats the purpose.

JohnDruitt
05-13-2015, 05:43 AM
The problem is that f2p players get a lot more PvP stuff for free than they should right now. You make almost a dollar every arena run completed. After 8 hours you have a free draft and from there you can keep on going. We dont need another gold sink. We need another place to get gold and make it less valuable.

Xenavire
05-13-2015, 05:45 AM
The problem is that f2p players get a lot more PvP stuff for free than they should right now. You make almost a dollar every arena run completed. After 8 hours you have a free draft and from there you can keep on going. We dont need another gold sink. We need another place to get gold and make it less valuable.

Actually, all we need is more free players.

Mourad13
05-13-2015, 05:45 AM
If instead of i dont know 2% you have 4% to encounter urunaz in my opinion more people may have a win and the 100000gold but i dont think it will cause imbalance maybe im wrong

Edit: in fact short term solution and as said above just need more players ^^

JohnDruitt
05-13-2015, 05:55 AM
Actually, all we need is more free players.

That we cannot influence. It's up to players to decide and play the game. Ads can help but they won't force anyone to play. On the other hand the matter we are talking about is urgent and we need a solution.

janome
05-13-2015, 06:00 AM
The problem is that f2p players get a lot more PvP stuff for free than they should right now. You make almost a dollar every arena run completed. After 8 hours you have a free draft and from there you can keep on going. We dont need another gold sink. We need another place to get gold and make it less valuable.

You guys have a seriously weird view on economics. A player earning 70c an hour during a spike and 50c an hour during normal play is nothing. Bear in mind, an hour run is with a tuned deck, a new player won't be doing this, so the average per run is much higher. If it winds up changing things slightly, like it has, find a way to exploit it. Example: Sell complete UR dwarf/robot decks for arena 25% above cost. Example: Pump and dump the supply of key cards like War Machinist. In my opinion though, the lure of an f2p/cheap mtgo clone will draw in people; it drew in me, and the game needs the growth imo. The flood of cards from backers is a much larger potential economic concern than players attempting f2p by grinding arena.

Edit: look at card price history. Overall, they do nothing but keep rising with increased adoption. For staples, demand: supply ratio will always be high.

nicosharp
05-13-2015, 06:15 AM
You guys have a seriously weird view on economics. A player earning 70c an hour during a spike and 50c an hour during normal play is nothing. Bear in mind, an hour run is with a tuned deck, a new player won't be doing this, so the average per run is much higher. If it winds up changing things slightly, like it has, find a way to exploit it. Example: Sell complete UR dwarf/robot decks for arena 25% above cost. Example: Pump and dump the supply of key cards like War Machinist. In my opinion though, the lure of an f2p/cheap mtgo clone will draw in people; it drew in me, and the game needs the growth imo. The flood of cards from backers is a much larger potential economic concern than players attempting f2p by grinding arena.

Edit: look at card price history. Overall, they do nothing but keep rising with increased adoption. For staples, demand: supply ratio will always be high.
It's a different marketing model than any other game. I think people keep forgetting that. Minor changes in what a F2P player gets in one hour can make a large difference in the value of cards, because plat generates packs. Value is based on the long-term player-base that does not subsidize.

BKCshah
05-13-2015, 06:29 AM
There's a stable currency - platinum.

Gold will always be a changing economy as things get added. Add more sinks, gold value increases. Add more faucets, gold value will decrease (at least short term while that faucet is popular). People are a bit too used to games where gold continuously tanks in value.

This is one of the few games where the 'free' currency has gone up significantly in value. However, this was largely due to removing a faucet (tournament gold) for PvP players and adding a desired 'short-term' sink.

What will happen to gold value in the future? Who knows. It will keep going up as long as there are better sinks than faucets which is currently the case (imo). Adding faucets alone doesn't help because they are pretty much just time based. So the real question is - what value does the player with platinum put on gold?

Ditsch
05-13-2015, 07:01 AM
We not only need more players we also need more players who want to play arena and farm that gold to sell it. Which seems to be also a problem, not enough free to play crowd and not active enough pve crowd. A PVP tournament won't fix that problem, only hope is right now China they seem to have a good marketing I hope it's a hit in China. So it's absurd but we need Chinese gold farmers to save us. LOL.

nicosharp
05-13-2015, 07:14 AM
only hope is right now China they seem to have a good marketing I hope it's a hit in China. So it's absurd but we need Chinese gold farmers to save us. LOL.
Which won't be possible, since they are a walled garden and will not be playing on this server in the near future.

Xenavire
05-13-2015, 07:33 AM
I think this is a self fixing 'problem'. The better the hourly 'wage' for PvE, the more attractive it will be for new players. The more new players we get, the more gold will drop in value as the economy is flooded.

If anything, the higher it spikes now, the more power word of mouth will have. "Hey Bob, come try this game, you can make a decent deck in a few days, best F2P I have played in ages!" If that isn't attractive to a new player, I don't know what is.

Khazrakh
05-13-2015, 07:40 AM
The problem is that f2p players get a lot more PvP stuff for free than they should right now. You make almost a dollar every arena run completed. After 8 hours you have a free draft and from there you can keep on going. We dont need another gold sink. We need another place to get gold and make it less valuable.

I still don't get why this should be a problem.
Somebody paid for that platinum you make from your arena run. The only thing that changes is the gold:platinum ratio while platinum is and always will be at a 100:0 platinum:dollar rate.
Right now a paying player has to pay more platinum for the same amount of gold, but every platinum a free player gets for his gold has been paid for by a paying player.

Ditsch
05-13-2015, 08:35 AM
True the walled garden will prevent them to join us. But if it's a hit in China they will want to sell gold also to us so they will find ways to make a account in our garden an start farming here. It's all about getting enough players hooked and except for China the marketing seems to not work, I for hope China and us it works.

rjselzler
05-13-2015, 08:54 AM
I think this is a self fixing 'problem'. The better the hourly 'wage' for PvE, the more attractive it will be for new players. The more new players we get, the more gold will drop in value as the economy is flooded.

If anything, the higher it spikes now, the more power word of mouth will have. "Hey Bob, come try this game, you can make a decent deck in a few days, best F2P I have played in ages!" If that isn't attractive to a new player, I don't know what is.

Agree with this totally. Respect to CZE for this (maniacal/ingenious) AA gold sink. I hope they keep it up. I think that the AA commons sink was beautifully designed and executed; if they remove them sometime this month, then they were there long enough for grinders to be able to reasonably grind for them, but not long enough that no one cares anymore. I hope they do a cycle like this for every single set, though I am sure that isn't feasible. I would love to see an AA crackling common set next!

The viability of actually being F2P in this game is a real thing. I consider that a slam-dunk win for CZE. I want lots of F2P grinders out there to create momentum in the economy; you can really only make money on the AH when currencies are flowing and things are in flux. Once there is substantial PvE, I expect F2P players to flock to us in droves and gold:plat ratios to ebb and flow even more. As someone who enjoys playing the AH, the thought makes me smile.

rjselzler
05-13-2015, 09:01 AM
I still don't get why this should be a problem.
Somebody paid for that platinum you make from your arena run. The only thing that changes is the gold:platinum ratio while platinum is and always will be at a 100:0 platinum:dollar rate.
Right now a paying player has to pay more platinum for the same amount of gold, but every platinum a free player gets for his gold has been paid for by a paying player.

Because it isn't; it's designed that way! One could look at an internal combustion engine and say "the problem is that there are all sorts of miniature explosions happening in there!" A small segment of F2P players are realistically making about fifty to seventy cents an hour in ideal conditions at a market peak. Yeah, so not a concern for me at all.

nicosharp
05-13-2015, 09:24 AM
Well, it is hard to argue with logic! I am also glad that this game is becoming more appealing to the F2P. There is no "problem".

I think the premise of the post was to warn whales of market manipulation before they throw money at poor exchange rates.

Of course - if people aren't paying, the rate adjusts until they do.

Xenavire
05-13-2015, 09:29 AM
Hey, whatever the reason for making the thread, it has been an interesting and level-headed discussion. And those are always good.

rjselzler
05-13-2015, 09:48 AM
Hey, whatever the reason for making the thread, it has been an interesting and level-headed discussion. And those are always good.

+1

ossuary
05-13-2015, 09:55 AM
Hey, whatever the reason for making the thread, it has been an interesting and level-headed discussion. And those are always good.

You take that back, jerk! ;)

JohnDruitt
05-13-2015, 10:17 AM
I still don't get why this should be a problem.
Somebody paid for that platinum you make from your arena run. The only thing that changes is the gold:platinum ratio while platinum is and always will be at a 100:0 platinum:dollar rate.
Right now a paying player has to pay more platinum for the same amount of gold, but every platinum a free player gets for his gold has been paid for by a paying player.

I do find that a problem as a mostly f2p player. From my standpoint if I can grind anything instead of paying they I will grind it. Now I need around 8 - 9 hours of arena to get a full free draft instead of 20 that I used to do not so long ago. From there on I can keep drafting and drafting and build my collection. And more people doing the same will result in less platinum bought. That will probably result in cards being more expensive and that is even better for me since I can earn more plat from my auctions. Yes, all plat is bought with real money but to draft you need only 100 plat and 3 boosters and boosters can be generated in the tournaments without real money being spent (even by f2p players). The premise of this game was that PvE is free and PvP is not. Now from my perspective PvP is free. It surprises me that some of you guys were agains any minor changes to help f2p players a few months back but now you are defending flawed system.

rjselzler
05-13-2015, 10:40 AM
I do find that a problem as a mostly f2p player. From my standpoint if I can grind anything instead of paying they I will grind it. Now I need around 8 - 9 hours of arena to get a full free draft instead of 20 that I used to do not so long ago.

The problem is that you are getting more for your time? I think we have radically different definitions of "problem."


And more people doing the same will result in less platinum bought.

You stated yourself that, "as a mostly f2p player" "if [you] can grind anything... [you] will grind it." These players weren't ever going to buy platinum anyway, by your own argument.


Yes, all plat is bought with real money but to draft you need only 100 plat and 3 boosters and boosters can be generated in the tournaments without real money being spent (even by f2p players).

This doesn't make sense to me, and seems contradictory. All boosters are CZE-generated and require that money be spent in the form of platinum. Every tournament requires at least three boosters (which someone, sometime paid for) and 100p (which someone, sometime paid for). Sure, we have Kickstarter-generated boosters, but those are still from CZE; it's not like they were generated willy-nilly by the system for anyone and are a finite supply.


The premise of this game was that PvE is free and PvP is not. Now from my perspective PvP is free. It surprises me that some of you guys were agains any minor changes to help f2p players a few months back but now you are defending flawed system.

It's not really free (though I get what you mean); it requires time, which you then cash out by "selling" your gold. There is an opportunity cost to both sides of the Hex currency dichotomy: PvE/gold was designed to satisfy people who value money more than time (i.e. free to play) and PvP/platinum was designed to satisfy people who value time more than money (i.e. pay to win). I think that we all fall somewhere in that spectrum between F2P player and whale.

Also, I am defending the system because it is working as intended, from what I can see. I think CZE has done a wonderful job incentivizing both sides of the currency game.

JohnDruitt
05-13-2015, 11:02 AM
The problem is that you are getting more for your time? I think we have radically different definitions of "problem."

Yup. You should get more PvE stuff for your time. Not PvP stuff.




You stated yourself that, "as a mostly f2p player" "if [you] can grind anything... [you] will grind it." These players weren't ever going to buy platinum anyway, by your own argument.

Does that mean we should give them very easy time consuming PvP experience?



This doesn't make sense to me, and seems contradictory. All boosters are CZE-generated and require that money be spent in the form of platinum. Every tournament requires at least three boosters (which someone, sometime paid for) and 100p (which someone, sometime paid for). Sure, we have Kickstarter-generated boosters, but those are still from CZE; it's not like they were generated willy-nilly by the system for anyone and are a finite supply.

Thats the main problem. NOT ALL boosters require money to be spent. Imagine I buy 3 boosters to play a draft. I win the draft and get 5 boosters (noone paid for them). Then I sell 2 boosters and play another draft. I win the draft and get another 5 boosters (I sell 2 boosters) and play another draft. These boosters were generated by the system. Cash free. If drafting would consume platinum only this would never be a problem (I am not saying that It should, just an example).




It's not really free (though I get what you mean); it requires time, which you then cash out by "selling" your gold. There is an opportunity cost to both sides of the Hex currency dichotomy: PvE/gold was designed to satisfy people who value money more than time (i.e. free to play) and PvP/platinum was designed to satisfy people who value time more than money (i.e. pay to win). I think that we all fall somewhere in that spectrum between F2P player and whale.

Also, I am defending the system because it is working as intended, from what I can see. I think CZE has done a wonderful job incentivizing both sides of the currency game.

I suspect that this is deliberate move by CZE (I have no proof ofc). Make gold more valuable now to lure new players. Then close the AA sink and make gold less valuable with dungeons to fix the economy where it dhould be (getting free pve, not free pvp). Still right now it's bad for the game. It feels like inviting friends to play dwarf aggro decks and making them farm the arena is a simple option to make a ton of plat without paying.

Xenavire
05-13-2015, 11:07 AM
Yup. You should get more PvE stuff for your time. Not PvP stuff.

Why not both? I see no logic to this, because it is going directly against the idea of the gold economy. The devs WANT players to sell off their PvP spares for gold.


Thats the main problem. NOT ALL boosters require money to be spent. Imagine I buy 3 boosters to play a draft. I win the draft and get 5 boosters (noone paid for them). Then I sell 2 boosters and play another draft. I win the draft and get another 5 boosters (I sell 2 boosters) and play another draft. These boosters were generated by the system. Cash free. If drafting would consume platinum only this would never be a problem (I am not saying that It should, just an example).

Going infinite is a thing. If someone works hard, they should be rewarded for it, and going infinite is not easy. This is nothing new to TCG's.



I suspect that this is deliberate move by CZE (I have no proof ofc). Make gold more valuable now to lure new players. Then close the AA sink and make gold less valuable with dungeons to fix the economy where it dhould be (getting free pve, not free pvp). Still right now it's bad for the game. It feels like inviting friends to play dwarf aggro decks and making them farm the arena is a simple option to make a ton of plat without paying.

And that is good for the game. Eventually gold will be worth less and it will feel like people paying money are getting more bang for their buck, but right now we want all the free players we can get - especially if they feel like it is worth investing in.

israel.kendall
05-13-2015, 11:08 AM
Those prize boosters were paid for via the plat entry fees JohnDruitt

JohnDruitt
05-13-2015, 11:17 AM
Those prize boosters were paid for via the plat entry fees JohnDruitt

Draft generates 5+3+2+2 = 12 boosters. Entry fees = 800 plat = 4 boosters.

@Xenavire

The gold should be used to buy PvE stuff, consumablec etc. and ofc PvP cards (mostly commons and uncomons probably). But buying into draft after 8h of arena is not what a developer wants because every players who values his money more than his time will take adventage of this fact.

Going infinite in Hex is VERY easy. I've been doing it for almost a year now. Not only You get a lot of byes in drafts, you face newbies, legendaries are expensive but you have primals that make everything so easy. You just need to win first match in a comp draft to get even + keep some cards. Everything more is just a bonus.

Gwaer
05-13-2015, 11:20 AM
It will not always be as easy as it is today, but the system in place is working as intended. Gold is supposed to be able to trade for plat from players who bought it, time in game is supposed to provide items that people who don't have that time but do have extra money want. This is the system. Enjoy it while it is this easy, because the more people farming gold/items the less valuable those items get.

israel.kendall
05-13-2015, 11:23 AM
Draft generates 5+3+2+2 = 12 boosters. Entry fees = 800 plat = 4 boosters.


The point is they are not free, as you were implying.

JohnDruitt
05-13-2015, 11:29 AM
The point is they are not free, as you were implying.

I never said they are free. I said they are genereted without cash being spent(8 of them).

hex_colin
05-13-2015, 11:40 AM
I never said they are free. I said they are genereted without cash being spent(8 of them).

They also force 24 more boosters to be opened, all of which came from HEX at some time. Ongoing the actual math is 24 boosters purchased and opened + 800 Platinum paying out 12 boosters. Still a valuable way to open boosters for consumers, but there is more value to HEX than just the 800 platinum.

nicosharp
05-13-2015, 11:46 AM
I never said they are free. I said they are genereted without cash being spent(8 of them).
Hey John,
The conversation I had with you the other night is exactly what prompted me to make this initial post.

Basically now for every 5600 plat, 7200 plat of packs is generated.
24pack(4800plat) + 800plat = draft, 12packs for "free" (2400plat) = 8000plat - 800plat entry.
That is a 'soft' 1600 plat entering the economy.

So, right now, with KS backers, and other people winning or receiving free packs through other means - the 5600 plat in is being greatly diminished.

However, like others have mentioned: As the playerbase expands, going infinite will not be as easy, and the true rate of 5600 plat in for 7200 plat out will become more accurate, and will even end up being less than the 'soft' 1600 plat entering the economy eventually, when you factor in plat lost to AH transactions(5% cut), and diminished exchange rates, outside of lucky primal procs.

israel.kendall
05-13-2015, 11:47 AM
I never said they are free. I said they are genereted without cash being spent(8 of them).

I look at it as a whole, the boosters were all paid for at a discount price. I guess you could look at it as paying for some boosters at full price then getting the rest "without cash being spent", but in reality the cash WAS spent in the entry fee.

JohnDruitt
05-13-2015, 12:03 PM
They also force 24 more boosters to be opened, all of which came from HEX at some time. Ongoing the actual math is 24 boosters purchased and opened + 800 Platinum paying out 12 boosters. Still a valuable way to open boosters for consumers, but there is more value to HEX than just the 800 platinum.

I agree that there is more than 800 plat that CZE earnes every draft. But the point of the discussion is whether 8 hours of arena is not to little to have a draft and CZE should intervene somehow. I'm going to get some sleep now. I am looking foreward to reading some more post regarding this matter.

ossuary
05-13-2015, 12:08 PM
It is not CZE's job to intervene in the manner you think it is. The gold to plat exchange rate is an entirely player driven conversion. CZE's job is to provide things for both plat and gold that are worth having. From there, it's purely a question of how much the players (as a whole) rate each currency in comparison to the other. If gold is "too good," more people will be willing to grind for it to get it themselves and possibly trade it with other players. If gold is "too weak," fewer people will bother and it will become more scarce over time as it is consumed (on the wheels, buying gold AAs, through AH transactions back and forth, or through other future sinks).

The entire system is self-correcting both ways. All CZE has to ensure is that it doesn't bend TOO far either way. And believe me, we're nowhere CLOSE to that point. Not by a couple orders of magnitude at least.

KingGabriel
05-13-2015, 12:11 PM
I question why you decided to make this thread. :confused:

noragar
05-13-2015, 12:19 PM
But the point of the discussion is whether 8 hours of arena is not to little to have a draft and CZE should intervene somehow.

Well in a way, they already did intervene by adding that line to the weekly update saying that the AA Commons would be going away 'soon'. That's what set off this entire gold frenzy. I don't know the reasons behind it, or whether player's reactions have been exactly what was intended, but I think the intervention was at least somewhat calculated and intentional.

rjselzler
05-13-2015, 12:20 PM
Yup. You should get more PvE stuff for your time. Not PvP stuff.

You are able to trade PvE stuff (e.g gold) for PvP stuff (e.g. plat and packs); that is exactly the way the system is engineered to work. "PvE stuff just happens to have an artificially inflated value for the time.



Thats the main problem. NOT ALL boosters require money to be spent. Imagine I buy 3 boosters to play a draft. I win the draft and get 5 boosters (noone paid for them). Then I sell 2 boosters and play another draft. I win the draft and get another 5 boosters (I sell 2 boosters) and play another draft. These boosters were generated by the system. Cash free. If drafting would consume platinum only this would never be a problem (I am not saying that It should, just an example).

So the problem is with PvP payout being too lucrative, in your opinion? I disagree fully if that is the case, though I understand why you may have a problem with that.

JohnDruitt
05-13-2015, 12:21 PM
It is not CZE's job to intervene in the manner you think it is. The gold to plat exchange rate is an entirely player driven conversion. CZE's job is to provide things for both plat and gold that are worth having. From there, it's purely a question of how much the players (as a whole) rate each currency in comparison to the other. If gold is "too good," more people will be willing to grind for it to get it themselves and possibly trade it with other players. If gold is "too weak," fewer people will bother and it will become more scarce over time as it is consumed (on the wheels, buying gold AAs, through AH transactions back and forth, or through other future sinks).

The entire system is self-correcting both ways. All CZE has to ensure is that it doesn't bend TOO far either way. And believe me, we're nowhere CLOSE to that point. Not by a couple orders of magnitude at least.

Well then last final post. Creating additional means to get gold/ additional gold sink is a way to intervene. Every change to the economy is an intervention of some sort. From my perspevtive we have 2 major gold sinks (chests, AAs) and only arena as gold generator. For a folks that played a lot of it I am pretty sure that it's not as entertaining as it used to so they prefer to draft (I'd love to see an option to do both at the same time!). It only leaves new players with the "job" to earn gold for the whole population of Hex. Are there enough of them to do that? Not in my opinion and that's why we see gold being more and more valuable. I can't wait for the AAs to be removed (that should fix the economy a little bit) but still i believe we need another source of gold income.

rjselzler
05-13-2015, 12:25 PM
Well in a way, they already did intervene by adding that line to the weekly update saying that the AA Commons would be going away 'soon'. That's what set off this entire gold frenzy. I don't know the reasons behind it, or whether player's reactions have been exactly what was intended, but I think the intervention was at least somewhat calculated and intentional.

To be fair, the "issue" was already there. Before the removal announcement, packs were selling for 24-27k, which is way lower than pre-AA commons prices. The announcement just was gas on the fine. Now every plat-holder is speculating on the potential value of the AA commons and PvE grinders are cashing in. It's a short-term scenario in my opinion. Once AA commons are gone and the only reason to get gold is to roll chests, you'll see all sorts of "gold is worthless" threads crop up.

As an aside, wouldn't it be funny if the AA commons were inside of Set 1 chests... :D

rjselzler
05-13-2015, 12:27 PM
It is not CZE's job to intervene in the manner you think it is. The gold to plat exchange rate is an entirely player driven conversion. CZE's job is to provide things for both plat and gold that are worth having. From there, it's purely a question of how much the players (as a whole) rate each currency in comparison to the other. If gold is "too good," more people will be willing to grind for it to get it themselves and possibly trade it with other players. If gold is "too weak," fewer people will bother and it will become more scarce over time as it is consumed (on the wheels, buying gold AAs, through AH transactions back and forth, or through other future sinks).

The entire system is self-correcting both ways. All CZE has to ensure is that it doesn't bend TOO far either way. And believe me, we're nowhere CLOSE to that point. Not by a couple orders of magnitude at least.

Agree on all points. CZE has the power to introduce and remove incentives. So far, they've wielded that power wisely, IMO. Incentivization is a powerful tool.

rjselzler
05-13-2015, 12:32 PM
I'd love to see an option to do both at the same time!

From your lips to Cory's ears... : )

Gwaer
05-13-2015, 12:32 PM
I have a couple million gold I'm thinking of parting with if the exchange rate gets much better.

Xenavire
05-13-2015, 12:33 PM
Well in a way, they already did intervene by adding that line to the weekly update saying that the AA Commons would be going away 'soon'. That's what set off this entire gold frenzy. I don't know the reasons behind it, or whether player's reactions have been exactly what was intended, but I think the intervention was at least somewhat calculated and intentional.

Actually, they are just keeping a promise they made when the AA's were introduced - we are getting the 'plenty of warning' that they said they would give us, nothing more, nothing less.

The player reactions are what is driving the price hike, not some scheme of the devs.

rjselzler
05-13-2015, 12:39 PM
I have a couple million gold I'm thinking of parting with if the exchange rate gets much better.

2 Million would be around 120-130 Set 1 packs at the prices I've been seeing. ;)

nicosharp
05-13-2015, 12:42 PM
The player reactions are what is driving the price hike, not some scheme of the devs.
That is very true. This can not be stopped, but small changes with a small playerbase will cause more significant fluctuation.

The value of gold will stabilize and be less prone to large swings when and if we achieve a large playerbase where 80%+ are exclusively F2P.

However, a game like this could start a new trend on it's own, where 50%+ are paying players. If that TCG spending bug gets to a large amount of active players, gold will continue to be a hot commodity that always trades in the favor of the seller.

Gwaer
05-13-2015, 12:47 PM
That would be a very interesting world to live in. I kind of hope they find a way to keep gold prices high like this. But there's too much value in it for botters not to get involved.

rjselzler
05-13-2015, 12:49 PM
That is very true. This can not be stopped, but small changes with a small playerbase will cause more significant fluctuation.

Very true. Gwaer could take half of his "couple million" and completely clean the AH out of Set 1 Packs (about 50-60 for gold, currently), which could significantly raise prices as people relist.



However, a game like this could start a new trend on it's own, where 50%+ are paying players. If that TCG spending bug gets to a large amount of active players, gold will continue to be a hot commodity that always trades in the favor of the seller.

I know that was meant as a "how awful would that be" but I immediately thought "how cool would that be!" Though I do think the 80% F2P once PvE is out fully is the more likely scenario.

nicosharp
05-13-2015, 12:52 PM
I know that was meant as a "how awful would that be" but I immediately thought "how cool would that be!" Though I do think the 80% F2P once PvE is out fully is the more likely scenario.
Well that's poor perception. Wasn't meant that way. :)

Also, I was just thinking about this, but F2P will also want to keep/hoard gold to continue to be successful, if they can also get their hands on exclusive AA's / etc. that only sell for gold, as long-term investments. It just depends on the F2P players, and how far along they are, and how saturated the game is/how saturated they anticipate it will be in the future. For example, I could have 8 of each AA now, to have 4 copies of each to sell later, as a hedge bet on it's long-term value, but instead I've used my gold on other things.

rjselzler
05-13-2015, 12:59 PM
Well that's poor perception. Wasn't meant that way. :)


My apologies then. : )

Chark
05-13-2015, 03:36 PM
Actually, they are just keeping a promise they made when the AA's were introduced - we are getting the 'plenty of warning' that they said they would give us, nothing more, nothing less.

The player reactions are what is driving the price hike, not some scheme of the devs.

A little of column A and a little of column B. ;)

Bottom line is that 'controlling' an economy like this one is incredibly difficult and it's been an incredible experience to be a part of and observe.

nicosharp
05-13-2015, 03:58 PM
A little of column A and a little of column B. ;)

Bottom line is that 'controlling' an economy like this one is incredibly difficult and it's been an incredible experience to be a part of and observe.
Your job is both Enviable and stressful. I hope you have back-up/a team for this, if not now, you will need one eventually :)

Yoss
05-13-2015, 04:05 PM
I do find that a problem as a mostly f2p player. From my standpoint if I can grind anything instead of paying they I will grind it. Now I need around 8 - 9 hours of arena to get a full free draft instead of 20 that I used to do not so long ago. From there on I can keep drafting and drafting and build my collection. And more people doing the same will result in less platinum bought. That will probably result in cards being more expensive and that is even better for me since I can earn more plat from my auctions. Yes, all plat is bought with real money but to draft you need only 100 plat and 3 boosters and boosters can be generated in the tournaments without real money being spent (even by f2p players). The premise of this game was that PvE is free and PvP is not. Now from my perspective PvP is free. It surprises me that some of you guys were agains any minor changes to help f2p players a few months back but now you are defending flawed system.


NOT ALL boosters require money to be spent. Imagine I buy 3 boosters to play a draft. I win the draft and get 5 boosters (noone paid for them). Then I sell 2 boosters and play another draft. I win the draft and get another 5 boosters (I sell 2 boosters) and play another draft. These boosters were generated by the system. Cash free. If drafting would consume platinum only this would never be a problem (I am not saying that It should, just an example).


Your math here is myopic; you need to look at the whole picture, not just your piece. A draft consumes more than just 800p, it also consumes a net of 12 unopened packs (24 in, 12 out). In order for the next draft to fire, 12 more packs and 800 more plat will need to be purchased. All plat at some point came from Hex in exchange for real money, and all boosters at some point came from Hex in exchange for either real money (VIP, KS), or plat (Store, tournament prizes). The fact that one player out of 8 comes out ahead doesn't mean that "the house" is losing. The one winner is part of the bait to keep people playing. (In addition to the more important entertainment value we get from playing a great game, but that's hard to put a money value on.) Everyone wants to "go infinite" but very few actually do so, and the ones that do are doing it on the backs of those who don't.

In short, the sky is not falling.

DocX
05-14-2015, 05:14 AM
A little of column A and a little of column B. ;)

Bottom line is that 'controlling' an economy like this one is incredibly difficult and it's been an incredible experience to be a part of and observe.

I would love to be a fly on the wall for those conversations. . . then again, maybe it's best since I probably couldn't control my urge to ask questions of folks.

RanaDunes
05-14-2015, 06:55 AM
My gold income has dropped drastically after the Frost Ring Arena since I find PvE boring and I just play PvP (Draft Tournaments). I wish we still get some gold for doing drafts. :/

DocX
05-14-2015, 10:16 AM
My gold income has dropped drastically after the Frost Ring Arena since I find PvE boring and I just play PvP (Draft Tournaments). I wish we still get some gold for doing drafts. :/

You absolutely can! Just take the cards you get in draft and list the on the AH for gold :-)

You get Gold and F2P players get access to PVP Commons, Uncommons and Rares. Win-Win!

Daer
05-14-2015, 11:25 AM
That would be an option if the AH wasn't a giant pain in the ass to list things. Its ok if you have a single thing you want to sell but if you have 50 things you want to sell it is more trouble than it is worth.

nicosharp
05-14-2015, 11:31 AM
That would be an option if the AH wasn't a giant pain in the ass to list things. Its ok if you have a single thing you want to sell but if you have 50 things you want to sell it is more trouble than it is worth.
Agreed... I don't know how or why Svenn does it :)

hex_colin
05-14-2015, 11:58 AM
That would be an option if the AH wasn't a giant pain in the ass to list things. Its ok if you have a single thing you want to sell but if you have 50 things you want to sell it is more trouble than it is worth.

Surely you understand why we don't have a mass listing tool in HEX (yet)? In a world where every card is unique (experience, achievements, part of a deck, etc.) mass listing cards is really, really problematic. They don't want to (and can't) release anything that does mass listing until they understand exactly how all of that will work in the future so that they don't have to redo it again and again as the game grows.

It sucks. They know it sucks. But their hands are tied until a little later in development. Such is life...

Lukezors
05-14-2015, 12:08 PM
The biggest thing about this for me is the AAs are not in the store nearly as long as I expected and "at least a week" does not seem like plenty of notice to me :P Hopefully future AA commons will be in store for a longer period.

nicosharp
05-14-2015, 12:10 PM
The biggest thing about this for me is the AAs are not in the store nearly as long as I expected and "at least a week" does not seem like plenty of notice to me :P Hopefully future AA commons will be in store for a longer period.
Well, Phenteo noted that the ETA for them going away is not yet defined, but I agree - I think any AA rotation that is simply a gold-sink for the entire playerbase should be on a 4month rotation, similar to a set release.

CoS
05-14-2015, 12:53 PM
I'd do that in a heartbeat if there was a mass AH list feature for "mean sale price" from past day/week/month etc. just make this a menu and I would do it after every draft. LIST ALL over 4 and NOT IN DECK = massive improvement for AH users.

noragar
05-14-2015, 01:15 PM
I'd do that in a heartbeat if there was a mass AH list feature for "mean sale price" from past day/week/month etc. just make this a menu and I would do it after every draft. LIST ALL over 4 and NOT IN DECK = massive improvement for AH users.

...and then everyone would do this and you'll sell just as many as you do now unless your Shield Trainer is the lucky one that gets randomly picked when someone wants to buy one out of the 2,267,860 Shield Trainers listed.

At least the way it is now, the people willing to put in the work actually have a chance of selling their stuff.

hex_colin
05-14-2015, 01:16 PM
I'd do that in a heartbeat if there was a mass AH list feature for "mean sale price" from past day/week/month etc. just make this a menu and I would do it after every draft. LIST ALL over 4 and NOT IN DECK = massive improvement for AH users.

Which would quickly be horribly broken by things in the game that are not too far off. Folks need to take a broader view on the complexity of HEX and how the AHs they are used to working with (e.g. WOW) just can't and won't work in the same way.

israel.kendall
05-14-2015, 01:30 PM
Yeah, I'd rather put in the work and sell cards than have an automated thing where everyone mass lists all their cards at the same price. Not to mention if I look at the prices everyone will be auto-listing at and undercut you before you even post your cards, then you probably won't sell anything at all.

Metronomy
05-14-2015, 01:31 PM
how could that be broken ? ...are you implying we shouldnt exspect any ah changes for the future ?
Just a function to list multiple item at once would be a huge improvement and its not that hard to implement, which makes me think that they indeed dont wanna have such a thing.

I can see why you dont wanna have an undercut button, but multiple listings should be made far more easier.

nicosharp
05-14-2015, 01:33 PM
I understand where people are coming from regarding the AH, but saying the AH needs to be complex or involve several clicks for each card is also not a great service to the players.

There can be a happy-medium / middle-ground. Seems like a large segue, but perhaps not?
Posting in bulk should not be necessary, but we should have:
trending data,
perhaps preset listing prices based on a toggle (match minimum, match high, match medium),
Faster access and synching with our card inventory and card selection process,
No need to pick 'specific' cards that are not currently in a deck/detoggling a card from a deck to sell it, (for blank cards with no double-back data)
a way to repeat a previously posted AH item.
Again, more responsiveness and seamless integration between card manager/auction house/inventory stash

Xenavire
05-14-2015, 01:34 PM
how could that be broken ? ...are you implying we shouldnt exspect any ah changes for the future ?
Just a function to list multiple item at once would be a huge improvement and its not that hard to implement, which makes me think that they indeed dont wanna have such a thing.

Double-backs, when they are implemented, will affect AH prices. And creating new AH features that will be made redundant or unwise to use by double-backs is a waste of development time.

In short, we can't have nice things right now because we are getting nice things later (or soon, if Colin is doing the usual hinthint-nudgenudge that he likes to do. :p)

israel.kendall
05-14-2015, 01:34 PM
how could that be broken ? ...are you implying we shouldnt exspect any ah changes for the future ?
Just a function to list multiple item at once would be a huge improvement and its not that hard to implement, which makes me think that they indeed dont wanna have such a thing.

I think it's broken because you will not actually have multiple of any card unless it is a "clean" copy that has not been played. Every card will be different because of it's tracking of individual statistics, thus every one will be unique and possibly even valued differently.

Kami
05-14-2015, 01:37 PM
If we do get double-backs, I sincerely hope they consider buy/sell orders anyway. Just have one section for those that don't care about whatever is on the double-backs and just want the cards. Have another that's a per-item auction for unique cards.

That would be a huge boon to the economy to have things move even faster.

At the moment, I don't see any concern for gold value. I've farmed over 1m gold from Arena so far and don't intend to stop anytime soon. I will continue to hoard all cards/packs/AAs other than for giveaways or tournaments. :D

israel.kendall
05-14-2015, 01:55 PM
If we do get double-backs, I sincerely hope they consider buy/sell orders anyway. Just have one section for those that don't care about whatever is on the double-backs and just want the cards. Have another that's a per-item auction for unique cards.

That would be a huge boon to the economy to have things move even faster.

At the moment, I don't see any concern for gold value. I've farmed over 1m gold from Arena so far and don't intend to stop anytime soon. I will continue to hoard all cards/packs/AAs other than for giveaways or tournaments. :D

You Dont see any problem with gold value because you are farming it and profiting. I Dont see any problem with the AH for those same reasons. I farmed over 5 million gold off the AH in under a week.

EntropyBall
05-14-2015, 01:56 PM
Which would quickly be horribly broken by things in the game that are not too far off. Folks need to take a broader view on the complexity of HEX and how the AHs they are used to working with (e.g. WOW) just can't and won't work in the same way.

From everything I've seen about this game, I simply don't agree with this. Cards in Hex are a commodity. I know that at some unspecified time in the future, each card has the potential to be a special and unique snowflake, but even then they will largely be traded as a uniform commodity. A bid/ask commodity system would work for 100% of Hex transactions now, and probably a huge % of transactions even once we have double backs.

Kami
05-14-2015, 02:02 PM
You Dont see any problem with gold value because you are farming it and profiting. I Dont see any problem with the AH for those same reasons. I farmed over 5 million gold off the AH in under a week.

How am I profiting? I haven't sold nor traded a single item. Ever.

I'm well aware that others are profiting but I don't see a problem with gold value solely due to the fact that gold's true value has yet to be determined. If anything, I think people are squandering their gold for short-term gain.

hex_colin
05-14-2015, 02:06 PM
From everything I've seen about this game, I simply don't agree with this. Cards in Hex are a commodity. I know that at some unspecified time in the future, each card has the potential to be a special and unique snowflake, but even then they will largely be traded as a uniform commodity. A bid/ask commodity system would work for 100% of Hex transactions now, and probably a huge % of transactions even once we have double backs.

Until someone accidentally sells their full EA, Signed, Highlands Magus that was in the deck I won the $100K tournament with. ;)

I'm in no way suggesting that we shouldn't have the system you describe in the future, but it has to at least account for the very precise selection of cards to be sold as part of any bulk listing/group. Additionally, until the final designs are in place for all the ways cards can be unique, you run the risk of having to do a great deal of rework if you quickly implement AH changes now. Given how much rework has needed to be done in the history of HEX, I fully understand the reluctance to commit to major systems efforts without understanding all of the current and future inputs on the requirements.

TL;DR: I support vastly improved AH functionality, but at the appropriate time that makes best sense for the overall development effort.

israel.kendall
05-14-2015, 02:20 PM
How am I profiting? I haven't sold nor traded a single item. Ever.

I'm well aware that others are profiting but I don't see a problem with gold value solely due to the fact that gold's true value has yet to be determined. If anything, I think people are squandering their gold for short-term gain.

The thing is, golds "true value" will never be determined. There will always be more market driving variables on the horizon and the value of gold will be in constant flux for the life of the game, IMO.

And you are profiting unless you give all that stuff away for free I guess.

Svenn
05-14-2015, 02:23 PM
Until someone accidentally sells their full EA, Signed, Highlands Magus that was in the deck I won the $100K tournament with. ;)

I'm in no way suggesting that we shouldn't have the system you describe in the future, but it has to at least account for the very precise selection of cards to be sold as part of any bulk listing/group. Additionally, until the final designs are in place for all the ways cards can be unique, you run the risk of having to do a great deal of rework if you quickly implement AH changes now. Given how much rework has needed to be done in the history of HEX, I fully understand the reluctance to commit to major systems efforts without understanding all of the current and future inputs on the requirements.

TL;DR: I support vastly improved AH functionality, but at the appropriate time that makes best sense for the overall development effort.
I think we're not all on the same page here. I don't think anyone was ever suggesting the game to randomly sell your cards... The bid/ask system would be where you choose the exact cards to list up or for the ask part you set that you want ANY card and someone chooses the specific one to sell to you. At no point would the game accidentally sell the one card you wanted to keep because it picked a random one.

For bulk listings you would pick the card you want to sell, then go in and select all the individual cards you want and hit list... and they all go up for the same price at the same time.

Were people under the impression that we want a bid/ask system where it's randomly pulling any one of your cards to sell?

hex_colin
05-14-2015, 02:43 PM
I think we're not all on the same page here. I don't think anyone was ever suggesting the game to randomly sell your cards... The bid/ask system would be where you choose the exact cards to list up or for the ask part you set that you want ANY card and someone chooses the specific one to sell to you. At no point would the game accidentally sell the one card you wanted to keep because it picked a random one.

For bulk listings you would pick the card you want to sell, then go in and select all the individual cards you want and hit list... and they all go up for the same price at the same time.

Were people under the impression that we want a bid/ask system where it's randomly pulling any one of your cards to sell?

No, but it's not as simple as choosing a number of a given card and just having them listed. You have to be able to carefully review the state of every card you choose. So, any system that is developed could definitely save you some time, but it's not going to the the panacea that some folks want when it comes to speed of creating auctions. And, as I've repeatedly pointed out, the complexity is in whatever UI is created to let you choose the cards you want to list - it's more complicated than the current deck manager (filters, search, etc.) and some of the attributes and features you'd need to be able to differentiate between don't exist yet. So, you run a risk, develop a much more complicated version of the AH now and almost certainly have to redo it in the future, or, wait a little while longer until you can create something that takes more of the future features into account. Like everything in life, it's a trade off.

I'd bet that a majority of folks want more of the game and more content before they want a better AH.

EDIT: The final implementation could very clearly have a "I don't give a f%$k which ones, just list 4 of these cards" use case, but it also has to deal with the OCD obsessive who only wants to sell cards that are 51.34256% experienced and were purchased on a Wednesday in November. And, you can't put in place the "don't give a f%$k" use case now because it currently doesn't matter (no cards are noticeably unique - yet) without committing to upgrading it with every single new release to take account of the changing and unique nature of the cards.

Sparrow
05-14-2015, 03:36 PM
Does anyone know if our cards are accumulating characteristics now that just can't be displayed because double-back hasn't been implemented yet? I would hope not, but thought I'd better check.

Metronomy
05-14-2015, 03:47 PM
well..i have to say i didnt think about double-backs...but the answer must not be to not have multiple listings by one button at all but to add selections (like only select cards with experience < X and/or trophies<x)...with that simple function all problem you described would be solved


..for now it wouldnt be so hard to implement multiple one button listings...once double-backs are implemented you have to add a selector...its not that hard...realy guys

hex_colin
05-14-2015, 04:01 PM
..for now it wouldnt be so hard to implement multiple one button listings...once double-backs are implemented you have to add a selector...its not that hard...realy guys

It is though. It adds the burden of having the update the AH-related functionality with every single patch that adds any history/characteristics to a card. You're falling into the classic trap of not thinking about any impact other than the one you want. We haven't even started talking about how it impacts search and display of items in the AH, generating metadata to describe experienced cards, allowing folks to describe their listings (like eBay), etc. All of that (and more) comes into play...

Presumably you don't want to slow the development cycle down any more? ;)

Metronomy
05-14-2015, 04:11 PM
For now you wouldnt even need a selector. I dont quite get what youre trying to say. The work doesnt get more if you implement multi-one-button-listings without selector now (well..maybe gui design but that shouldnt be such a big thing). You just add selectors once you need to. The coding routine to add multiple listings with one button has to be programmed no matter what. A selector can be added without having to reinvent the wheel completly new.

Is the stance not do anything till everything is there ? This would mean we would have to wait for such a function for months and months (maybe not even this year). Honestly, this button would be quite a big thing. In realtion to cost and gain its more than worth it (also because it shouldnt be that hard to implement at all).

Just to clear out confusions...im not talking about how you need to modify the auction house in general once you have double-backs. Im just talking about that one button (not more not less). Anyways though...concerning adding search functions and so on...you have to do this no matter what once you include double-backs dont you ? I dont get your point there..

Somehow I keep editing my post...once you add characteristics to a card you have to chose wether you want to add this as a selector or not. The only way to avoid this is to never include the list-x-items-button. Is that what you are suggesting or are you saying we should wait till double-backs are fully-implemented so that they dont have to add this button before that. Im just not happy at all with that solution.

plaguedealer
05-14-2015, 04:18 PM
I'd bet that a majority of folks want more of the game and more content before they want a better AH.

I am in the camp that wants more content rather then a better ah. The AH could use improvements for bulk sales, I don't think anyone disputes that. When double backs come in the cards will absolutely not be a standard commodity. We need more content so I can talk about something other then this issue.

Svenn
05-14-2015, 04:29 PM
It is though. It adds the burden of having the update the AH-related functionality with every single patch that adds any history/characteristics to a card. You're falling into the classic trap of not thinking about any impact other than the one you want. We haven't even started talking about how it impacts search and display of items in the AH, generating metadata to describe experienced cards, allowing folks to describe their listings (like eBay), etc. All of that (and more) comes into play...

Presumably you don't want to slow the development cycle down any more? ;)
The thing is, they can plan for all of this. They know what is needed and what features are to come. They can do the full design for how the AH with full double backs will work then implement just the multi-list feature now and do the full upgrade later with double backs. The design part is separate from the full implementation. I would hope they are thinking far enough ahead to plan how these things are going to work.

I'm not saying they should be focusing on any of this over other features or PvE content right now, but it's not like they just can't do a design for it all now. Honestly, if they don't know how the AH is going to work with double backs already that's kind of worrisome.

Rehab
05-14-2015, 04:32 PM
The AH doesn't need need a massive overhaul to be more user friendly. I would be happy if there was a checkbox that made the minimum bid and buyout fields not clear between listings as a short-term solution.

Chark
05-14-2015, 05:00 PM
The "bulk listing of cards for the same price" feature is scheduled to be released with the set 3 release (pending anything disastrous in testing). It'll take a quantity that you want to list and will list cards that are the same as the one you selected (assuming you have enough of the cards in your account). It'll start with cards that aren't in a deck and then if your qty includes cards in your deck, it'll give you a warning. Assuming you agree, it'll list all of those cards as individual auctions for you.

Obviously it's not a silver bullet to all of the AH issues and it's important to remember that even though you can list all 500 of your extra Cavern Commandos for 100 gold each, it still doesn't guarantee that there will be buyers for all of your extra cards. But it's a start towards solving the issue of getting common cards into hands of F2P players.

Metronomy
05-14-2015, 05:09 PM
thx for that information chark...thats what i was talking about..that one function alone is huge

Dinotropia
05-14-2015, 05:18 PM
Banzai! Long live mass listing!

Yoss
05-14-2015, 05:49 PM
The "bulk listing of cards for the same price" feature is scheduled to be released with the set 3 release (pending anything disastrous in testing). It'll take a quantity that you want to list and will list cards that are the same as the one you selected (assuming you have enough of the cards in your account). It'll start with cards that aren't in a deck and then if your qty includes cards in your deck, it'll give you a warning. Assuming you agree, it'll list all of those cards as individual auctions for you.

Obviously it's not a silver bullet to all of the AH issues and it's important to remember that even though you can list all 500 of your extra Cavern Commandos for 100 gold each, it still doesn't guarantee that there will be buyers for all of your extra cards. But it's a start towards solving the issue of getting common cards into hands of F2P players.

Oh, happy day! :D

Gwaer
05-14-2015, 05:50 PM
Those of you with patience, list everything now while prices are high.

nicosharp
05-14-2015, 06:00 PM
well, thats a cool little spoiler. Thanks Chark.

Zophie
05-14-2015, 06:31 PM
The "bulk listing of cards for the same price" feature is scheduled to be released with the set 3 release (pending anything disastrous in testing). It'll take a quantity that you want to list and will list cards that are the same as the one you selected (assuming you have enough of the cards in your account). It'll start with cards that aren't in a deck and then if your qty includes cards in your deck, it'll give you a warning. Assuming you agree, it'll list all of those cards as individual auctions for you.

Obviously it's not a silver bullet to all of the AH issues and it's important to remember that even though you can list all 500 of your extra Cavern Commandos for 100 gold each, it still doesn't guarantee that there will be buyers for all of your extra cards. But it's a start towards solving the issue of getting common cards into hands of F2P players.

http://i.imgur.com/lP2w3Hr.gif

Awesome :)

Selanius
05-14-2015, 07:04 PM
Amazing news Chark, this is a much needed feature!

DocX
05-14-2015, 07:08 PM
The biggest thing about this for me is the AAs are not in the store nearly as long as I expected and "at least a week" does not seem like plenty of notice to me :P Hopefully future AA commons will be in store for a longer period.

It would be nice if there were more notice ahead of time and these things were better defined, but I understand things are being worked out as we go right now. I'll forgive them a bit of vagueness in the messaging at the moment. . . but I also have a playset of all the AAs (which is something I specifically worked toward over the past several weeks because I wanted to make sure I had them)


I'd do that in a heartbeat if there was a mass AH list feature for "mean sale price" from past day/week/month etc. just make this a menu and I would do it after every draft. LIST ALL over 4 and NOT IN DECK = massive improvement for AH users.

There's at least three websites that make this sort of data available (hexsales.net, hexprice.com and the links I have in my .signature). We present the data in a few different ways, but right now I'd rather this data be done by third parties so the Hex folks can work on getting more core functionality in the client. Being able to see market data is above and beyond what I'd expect in the base client functionality.


I understand where people are coming from regarding the AH, but saying the AH needs to be complex or involve several clicks for each card is also not a great service to the players.

There can be a happy-medium / middle-ground. Seems like a large segue, but perhaps not?
Posting in bulk should not be necessary, but we should have:
trending data,
perhaps preset listing prices based on a toggle (match minimum, match high, match medium),
Faster access and synching with our card inventory and card selection process,
No need to pick 'specific' cards that are not currently in a deck/detoggling a card from a deck to sell it, (for blank cards with no double-back data)
a way to repeat a previously posted AH item.
Again, more responsiveness and seamless integration between card manager/auction house/inventory stash

NOTE: Posted before I read Chark's e-mail which covers some of what I said.

Trending data is covered by third-party websites.
Having preset listing prices would be nice, and I'm sure it's a quality of life improvement they're looking at.
I don't know what you're talking about regarding access and syncing card inventory.
I understand why there's not a "post X of this item" for cards (though for equipment this would be a godsend since, as far as I know, we're not getting doubleback-like functionality for equipment) based on what Colin said. If each card is a unique snowflake, keeping track of those cards and their uniqueness has value and this can be reflected in the asking price for some people.
Being able to repeat the previously posted AH parameters would be nice. Having previous values be "sticky" so all I need to do is select the next card and press "List Item" would be nice.
Having the inventory be a little faster in showing cards, filtering, etc would be nice and I'm sure Hex is working on it.

One thing I'd like to see is, when I'm listing equipment, keep the equipment tab up and not make me have to click it every time to open up "stash items". Again, a quality of life thing I'm sure they're working on.

israel.kendall
05-14-2015, 09:05 PM
The "bulk listing of cards for the same price" feature is scheduled to be released with the set 3 release (pending anything disastrous in testing). It'll take a quantity that you want to list and will list cards that are the same as the one you selected (assuming you have enough of the cards in your account). It'll start with cards that aren't in a deck and then if your qty includes cards in your deck, it'll give you a warning. Assuming you agree, it'll list all of those cards as individual auctions for you.

Obviously it's not a silver bullet to all of the AH issues and it's important to remember that even though you can list all 500 of your extra Cavern Commandos for 100 gold each, it still doesn't guarantee that there will be buyers for all of your extra cards. But it's a start towards solving the issue of getting common cards into hands of F2P players.

This will actually make it more difficult for some people who list like every common or uncommon card. The reason I say this is because right now the quickest method I have found to get current pricing info on each card and determine a list price is to actually go through the entire list of commons, or uncommons, etc. I will flip through every single page of set 2 commons (yes, all 400 pages) writing down what cards to list at what prices as I go.

After this is implemented, I imagine there will be thousands of pages of commons from a single set. This will mean the most efficient way to get current card pricing will be to look up each individual card on the AH, adding on tons of time to the listing process. In short, while it will take less time to list 200 copies of a single card, it will vastly increase the time taken to list 4x copies of 50 different cards. I think it would be beneficial to add a "skip to next card" button to the AH to better facilitate browsing the massive volume of card listings that are coming.

Yoss
05-14-2015, 09:20 PM
I wish there was an option to search for "only show the lowest buyout for each currency per item" so that you'd have only two listings shown per item.

israel.kendall
05-14-2015, 09:27 PM
I wish there was an option to search for "only show the lowest buyout for each currency per item" so that you'd have only two listings shown per item.

I wish it would show the lowest 5-10 buyouts, just the lowest is not enough info.

nicosharp
05-14-2015, 09:30 PM
Perhaps with the update Chark hinted at there will be improved filtering/searching functionality?

Chark
05-14-2015, 09:39 PM
Perhaps with the update Chark hinted at there will be improved filtering/searching functionality?

Sorry guys. There is nothing more for the AH in this update.

hammer
05-14-2015, 10:08 PM
Sorry guys. There is nothing more for the AH in this update.

Thanks Chark; what date is this update scheduled for ;)

Chark
05-14-2015, 10:50 PM
Thanks Chark; what date is this update scheduled for ;)

Soon, 2015

Khazrakh
05-14-2015, 11:19 PM
Soon, 2015

Wooo, better take the rest of 2015 off then!

JohnDruitt
05-15-2015, 02:08 AM
Soon, 2015

So it's 2015 now, not summer 2015? :))))

ossuary
05-15-2015, 03:31 AM
This will mean the most efficient way to get current card pricing will be to look up each individual card on the AH

This is how I've always done it. Once a week, for every single common and uncommon in both sets. :p

It takes time, but it's the only way to know what the exact best price to sell at RIGHT NOW is (and if one card is listed really low for no reason, you can let that one get sold before yours and list your copies at just below the "real" price).

It's a huge pain in the ass, but it's also made me more than 200K plat and more gold than I can accurately keep track of (which I've also mostly spent, damn you Wheels of Fate) since launch. I just wish there were a way to get summary emails instead of individual transactions (especially when stuff is expiring). And that listing was more keyboard friendly instead of requiring dozens of clicks and moving your mouse all over the screen multiple times for every single card you list. :p

israel.kendall
05-15-2015, 04:28 AM
Its faster to go through all the pages than to search each one if you're listing all commons.

Kroan
05-15-2015, 07:09 AM
Note that the shift in data from april 17th is because of a new (and better) method of calculating the Plat:Gold ratio. From that day forward we are able to use the Booster Pack prices and the AA Gold prices to come to a solid P:G ratio.

Yoss
05-15-2015, 08:51 AM
Would sure be nice if the API had a "dump all lowest buyouts" hook. *drool*

Chark
05-15-2015, 12:51 PM
So it's 2015 now, not summer 2015? :))))

I like to hedge my bets more than Will does in the Friday announcements :)