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fido_one
05-12-2015, 03:26 PM
Hey all,

So I haven't been as active as I have wanted to be as of late as I've been focusing solely on starting a company after I lost my job last year. I won't bore you with the details of my new venture but one of the main facets of the company will be VR and Holo solutions, and I've just begun doing some data collection on different products.

I just spent a few days with the Samsung Gear VR S6 edition and I can tell you that while far from perfect, it's continuing to bolster the theory that the main issues with VR will be addressed in the next year and will probably be addressed with a big heaping side of awesome.

Anyways; regardless of the product that comes out on top (looking at you first Vive!) I think a lot of us are going to be spending a lot of our time with some version of these headsets over our noggins in 2016.

Unity has oculus support and I started thinking - how awesome would it be to play in the frost ring arena, point to my cards and sling them onto the battleground - possibly beneath a bad-ass looking Hogarth staring over me in the sky? Or virtually move around the PvP board as I try and figure out my next move? ...and so on and so forth...

The work involved in developing a VR UI for Hex would be a [CZE pick one! minor/medium/major/impossible] task, but man would it be awesome.

... and I worry that a VR version of Hex could be sorely needed. The VR S6 (and the VR Note before it) is a sub-par experience of what is coming at the end of 2015 but it has already started to vie for a portion of my daily routine - in other words I find myself doing 'VR testing' in my R&R time that was previously spent at the computer or in front of the TV (note that none of my R&R time is spent doing anything healthy, like going outside).

The key with the S6 VR headset over its predecessor is mainly comfort, and while it's still got a ways to go, I've been surprised to have gone a full 2 hours with the set on, something that previously made me sick to my stomach to even think about. So knowing the experience will continue to get better, I have resolved myself to the fact that I'll spend a lot of 2016 with one of these ridiculous things on my head - I do hope at that point I can explore some area of Entrath in my VR travels!

Xenavire
05-12-2015, 03:30 PM
I doubt this is something that will happen soon (I just can't see it being feasible until the VR headsets have some decent market saturation) but I can agree that done right, it would be very awesome.

Especially if it allows a true simulation of sitting around a table with a group of friends - 50 man VR FFA sounds like the best thing ever!

israel.kendall
05-12-2015, 03:34 PM
I've seen VR come and go a few times over the years. What about VR now will make it successful this time? It's an honest question, as I haven't seriously looked into it.

fido_one
05-12-2015, 03:44 PM
I've seen VR come and go a few times over the years. What about VR now will make it successful this time? It's an honest question, as I haven't seriously looked into it.

Well, without getting too far into the details, it's widely accepted now that VR is going to be a big thing sometime soon (http://www.kzero.co.uk/blog/consumer-virtual-reality-market-worth-13bn-2018/).

But to try and answer your question briefly, the technology is at a level where VR/holo solutions are no longer nausea inducing. VR is all about 'presence' (feeling as if you are actually in the VR simulation), and the resolution of the screens, refresh rates (90Hrz seems to be the opening standard), power to drive those resolutions at those rates with less than 20 ms latency from render to headset display, etc. etc. are only now being realized in development VR kits from Oculus, Sony, and HTC/Valve. Those technologies dramatically increase the presence and make it an experience wholly unlike the 1990s Lawnmower Man puke-fest machines.

The following is very specific (I am NOT going into this business but I wish I was!) application of VR but should be popping up in Salt Lake City this year or next year: http://www.thevoid.com/ . Check out articles on the HTC Vive and Oculus for more details.

It's going to be pretty awesome, trust me.

Svenn
05-12-2015, 03:53 PM
I don't see this happening, but it sure would be awesome to be able to have a virtual tabletop setting with some friends. That experience of sitting around a table would be awesome.

israel.kendall
05-12-2015, 04:40 PM
Well, without getting too far into the details, it's widely accepted now that VR is going to be a big thing sometime soon (http://www.kzero.co.uk/blog/consumer-virtual-reality-market-worth-13bn-2018/).

But to try and answer your question briefly, the technology is at a level where VR/holo solutions are no longer nausea inducing. VR is all about 'presence' (feeling as if you are actually in the VR simulation), and the resolution of the screens, refresh rates (90Hrz seems to be the opening standard), power to drive those resolutions at those rates with less than 20 ms latency from render to headset display, etc. etc. are only now being realized in development VR kits from Oculus, Sony, and HTC/Valve. Those technologies dramatically increase the presence and make it an experience wholly unlike the 1990s Lawnmower Man puke-fest machines.

The following is very specific (I am NOT going into this business but I wish I was!) application of VR but should be popping up in Salt Lake City this year or next year: http://www.thevoid.com/ . Check out articles on the HTC Vive and Oculus for more details.

It's going to be pretty awesome, trust me.

Hey cool, thanks for the answer. Looks pretty awesome, I'll surely at least try it out if I ever get a chance.

Back when I was growing up VR was making big news. Here is one I actually remember watching back in 1991. It's 11 minutes long, but 11 minutes of air time in 1991 on ABC was a pretty huge deal.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVn3H93Ysag

fido_one
05-12-2015, 05:16 PM
hey cool, thanks for the answer. Looks pretty awesome, i'll surely at least try it out if i ever get a chance.

Back when i was growing up vr was making big news. Here is one i actually remember watching back in 1991. It's 11 minutes long, but 11 minutes of air time in 1991 on abc was a pretty huge deal.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvn3h93ysag

zomg i love you this video is awesome.

israel.kendall
05-12-2015, 05:47 PM
zomg i love you this video is awesome.

What's weird is towards the end of the video they say that it is all really something that "our children will find the answer" to. 25 years later is about right for "our children" to start finding some answers lol.

RCDv57
05-12-2015, 06:39 PM
I want this.
I want this so I can duel someone in Hex while riding a motorcycle.

israel.kendall
05-12-2015, 06:42 PM
I want this.
I want this so I can duel someone in Hex while riding a motorcycle.

Real men ride motorcycles while playing HEX on tablet.

Jemy000
05-12-2015, 07:12 PM
.
Unity has oculus support and I started thinking - how awesome would it be to play in the frost ring arena, point to my cards and sling them onto the battleground - possibly beneath a bad-ass looking Hogarth staring over me in the sky? Or virtually move around the PvP board as I try and figure out my next move? ...and so on and so forth...


The awesomeness of this concept, or even just sitting at a virtual tabletop playing against my friend's avatars, (in my imagination they are a spambot and a T-hex) has blown me away. I'm eager to jump aboard the next gaming revolution, so I hope Hex comes too!

israel.kendall
05-12-2015, 07:32 PM
The awesomeness of this concept, or even just sitting at a virtual tabletop playing against my friend's avatars, (in my imagination they are a spambot and a T-hex) has blown me away. I'm eager to jump aboard the next gaming revolution, so I hope Hex comes too!

VR would actually be excellent for multiplayer games where the game board needs to be large to hold everyone's cards. You could just be on a huge virtual table where you look around to see the entire current board state.

Zophie
05-12-2015, 08:30 PM
I (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26464&p=278742&viewfull=1#post278742) really (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=38122&p=413156&viewfull=1#post413156) love (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=41857&p=466469&viewfull=1#post466469) this (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25724) idea (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24249&p=228817&viewfull=1#post228817)! :)

Gwaer
05-12-2015, 08:43 PM
It's the only community suggestion i've ever heard that actually enables multiplayer(more than 1v1) content in some way. I'm anxious to see how they crack that nut.

Zophie
05-12-2015, 08:50 PM
It's the only community suggestion i've ever heard that actually enables multiplayer(more than 1v1) content in some way. I'm anxious to see how they crack that nut.

Yeah out of all the features coming to Hex, matches with more than just 1v1 have been what I've been wanting to see the most. 3+ player FFA, 2v2, 3v1 PVE, etc.

Aradon
05-12-2015, 08:52 PM
It probably comes pretty low on the priority list, but has potential for when VR becomes the thing. I'd like to see virtual card peripherals associated with it, but it'd never happen. It'd be neat though: little blank cards that communicate their position to a receiver, so you could pick up cards and physically move them around. In the Rift you'd be looking at actual pictures of your cards, and it'd let you arrange your board and hand how you'd like, and same for other players.

But not really a viable market for peripherals like that. Not for a few years, at least.

israel.kendall
05-12-2015, 09:13 PM
I (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26464&p=278742&viewfull=1#post278742) really (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=38122&p=413156&viewfull=1#post413156) love (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=41857&p=466469&viewfull=1#post466469) this (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25724) idea (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24249&p=228817&viewfull=1#post228817)! :)

LOL that thread was in the back of my mind, but couldn't remember if VR was mentioned there or not.

fido_one
05-13-2015, 07:25 AM
Making a VR element of Hex may not be as hard as one thinks, especially given that they have been developing in unity. My business isn't in the software development side so what I'm about to say here could be easily discounted...

Still: from my research, if you have a unity build, it may not be super hard to convert it into VR. Now it won't be the VR experience that some of us dream of - that would take some programming muscle. But putting the standard 'look at the menu object to select it' with a bluetooth gamepad could have you hover over the board and play rather easily without a ton of tweaking. It wouldn't be radically different from how we play now except we can 'sit' or 'walk' the board (with the joystick). As a proof of concept I don't think it would be tremendously hard, depending on which version of unity they are on and what areas they flag as future VR possibilities when they develop content even now before VR becomes a viable option.

Again though, software development isn't in my strategy for my business, so the most I know about it is when my solutions need insight from the creation process. Could easily be wrong on how easy it is to set up a proof of concept.

Kami
05-13-2015, 08:57 AM
As interesting as this idea is, I don't see the point.

While it's the new fad (and yes, I think it is a fad), what benefit is there to the game other than bells and whistles? They'd have to pool a large amount of resources to something that would be superficial. It doesn't really add anything to gameplay and it's extremely niche.

There's far more functional things that could and should be worked on instead.

If you were telling me that it'll be like Sword Art Online or .hack where I exist in a world and my collection is my actions/troops (like stones in MTG's Arena), maybe I'd consider it. But at that point, the game is so far removed from a DTCG, you'd be better off calling it an immersive MMORPG using TCG fundamentals in a VR environment.

Xexist
05-13-2015, 09:33 AM
As interesting as this idea is, I don't see the point.

While it's the new fad (and yes, I think it is a fad), what benefit is there to the game other than bells and whistles? They'd have to pool a large amount of resources to something that would be superficial. It doesn't really add anything to gameplay and it's extremely niche.

There's far more functional things that could and should be worked on instead.

If you were telling me that it'll be like Sword Art Online or .hack where I exist in a world and my collection is my actions/troops (like stones in MTG's Arena), maybe I'd consider it. But at that point, the game is so far removed from a DTCG, you'd be better off calling it an immersive MMORPG using TCG fundamentals in a VR environment.

Sorry kami but I disagree. I have watched enough star trek to know that VR is the future. Its not if, its when.

I vote for HEX in the holodek!

EntropyBall
05-13-2015, 09:45 AM
As interesting as this idea is, I don't see the point.

While it's the new fad (and yes, I think it is a fad), what benefit is there to the game other than bells and whistles? They'd have to pool a large amount of resources to something that would be superficial. It doesn't really add anything to gameplay and it's extremely niche.

There's far more functional things that could and should be worked on instead.

If you were telling me that it'll be like Sword Art Online or .hack where I exist in a world and my collection is my actions/troops (like stones in MTG's Arena), maybe I'd consider it. But at that point, the game is so far removed from a DTCG, you'd be better off calling it an immersive MMORPG using TCG fundamentals in a VR environment.

Not that I'm worried CZE is seriously considering adding VR, but I agree wholeheartedly with Kami. If and when VR has enough market penetration to be worth developing for, a card game will be far down the list of ways to best use it. Hex has countless planned features that are way more impactful than even thinking about VR implementations.

Turtlewing
05-13-2015, 09:46 AM
It probably comes pretty low on the priority list, but has potential for when VR becomes the thing. I'd like to see virtual card peripherals associated with it, but it'd never happen. It'd be neat though: little blank cards that communicate their position to a receiver, so you could pick up cards and physically move them around. In the Rift you'd be looking at actual pictures of your cards, and it'd let you arrange your board and hand how you'd like, and same for other players.

But not really a viable market for peripherals like that. Not for a few years, at least.

That wouldn't work for Hex.

The down side of the digital only features (particularly creating cards) is that you lose the ability to tie them to physical artifacts like the augmented reality cards you described.

In general VR is a replacement for a monitor. There isn't really anything VR can do that a monitor can't and usually the monitor does better as it doesn't obscure your surroundings (make it problematic to find your mountain dew). As an example, the multiplayer 3-d rendered environment where you can pull back and see the whole board state or zoom in of subsets of it, doesn't require VR to work.

IMO where the real utility is in VR related tech is actually in Augmented Reality. Particularly in overlaying a context sensitive "HUD" in your view, and in replacing seemingly blank "anchor points" with customized content (like overlying the cards in your hand on the blank cards you're holding). That doesn't really help Hex as one of Hex's core things is that it needs to create cards at will, but it's where your AR fishtanks, posters that everyone in the house sees differently, and "computer highlight where I last saw my keys" use cases will come through.

Zophie
05-13-2015, 09:54 AM
I don't think physical proxies/AR tools would be necessary to make this work in VR. Just use hand tracking or controller support. The upcoming Steam Controller (http://store.steampowered.com/universe/controller) would be fine for this game in general, and would work just as well while playing in VR.

Aradon
05-13-2015, 07:19 PM
That wouldn't work for Hex.

The down side of the digital only features (particularly creating cards) is that you lose the ability to tie them to physical artifacts like the augmented reality cards you described.

In general VR is a replacement for a monitor. There isn't really anything VR can do that a monitor can't and usually the monitor does better as it doesn't obscure your surroundings (make it problematic to find your mountain dew). As an example, the multiplayer 3-d rendered environment where you can pull back and see the whole board state or zoom in of subsets of it, doesn't require VR to work.

IMO where the real utility is in VR related tech is actually in Augmented Reality. Particularly in overlaying a context sensitive "HUD" in your view, and in replacing seemingly blank "anchor points" with customized content (like overlying the cards in your hand on the blank cards you're holding). That doesn't really help Hex as one of Hex's core things is that it needs to create cards at will, but it's where your AR fishtanks, posters that everyone in the house sees differently, and "computer highlight where I last saw my keys" use cases will come through.

I don't think this is completely an impossible hurdle. There'd be issues with creating many, many tokens, but for just a few, you can always just peel a few cards off your deck. For most other things, you can create the same effect in the programming. Might have to classify some objects as intangible, and exist without a physical proxy. I think the real hurdle is the fact that no other game would need this peripheral.