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whiteyzz
05-17-2015, 07:37 PM
Hey everyone, I just wanted to see what you guys had for interesting PVE idea's. Here is one I thought of to possibly improve bot difficulty.

1. Bots get a side board

If Arena taught me anything, abuse what the bots cant deal with... and the bots in Arena get their ass whooped by aggro... the faster the deck, the quicker they go down. So possibly make it so a deck would look like this

20 Diamond shards
20 PVE Specific Cards
12 PVP Specific Cards
8 Side board Cards he will float into your deck

Have the AI possibly read the deck/decks the players are using. So if the bot sees your playing a lot of control/kill spells he might run a lot of Stone skins and graveyard recursion. Where if it's Aggro you might see instead Dragon Guard Stalwarts and heroic Inspiration.

I guess how you could see the deck types could be.

Aggro = Low Cost Creatures/Actions or spells that have limited use but great early in the game
Example: Shatter Shield / Gas Troll / Fang of the Mountain God

Control = High Cost Creatures/Actions that will win you the game, with a bunch of low cost removal to control the board till then.
Example: Repel / Inquisition / Burn to the ground

Combo = Cost with great effects but need other cards to work with it
Example Cards: Burning Skarn / Righteous Paladin / Dementia Daisies

Hybrid = A mix of both of the above three, using the power of two types withing one deck, like pairing up burning skarn with a deck using things like Repel/Heroic Inspiration/Howling Ambush.

Balanced = Equal usage of all three types, they have moderate power throughout the game with a decent pool of creatures early to late game, and spells that work with the creatures and/or remove the enemies board position

1. Aggro cards would be anything that assists the early game and generally played around turns 1-6~ and slowly dies down from there

2. Control would have early game blockers/traders and then a powerful endgame spells like burn to the ground/life siphon/ Escalation Cards

3. Combo would be Mana Ramp / creature spawning / Inspire

How would you choose what counters what?

1. Aggro suffers from cards that control the whole board again.
Examples: Heat Wave / Extinction / Tectonic Break / Yesterday / Judgement

2. Aggro suffers from cards with high defense or swiftstrike
Examples: Giant Coccoon / Cavern Guard / Lightning Elemental / Dragon Guard Stalwart / Exarch of the Egg (Paladin of Necro)

3. Aggro usually cant hold up against big game troops.
Examples. Rootfather / Kraken / Shimmer / Gront / Ash harpy

So if the deck in question of a AI deck was against an Aggro deck, and itself was an wild deck. Giant Caterpillars / Tectonic breaks would be place in there to try to block and remove their board states. If it was a blue deck it could put out Cavern Guard and Yesterday.

This way the AI decks feel like they can hold up against a player no matter what type of deck they're using but keep their general theme. We could put on every card using a 3 point system

The Cards usefulness based on type

Charged Bolt = Balanced type card
Aggro: OXX
Control: OXX
Combo: OXX

Charged bolt in essence is a card that can be ran in every kind of deck
1. Aggro, can use it to remove creatures early on that survived a trade like a Cavern Guard or Dragon Guard
2. Control, can use it to control the enemy creatures state
3. Combo, it helps buff up a goremaster/tormented ritualist/ect

Versus let's say

Shock = Hybrid
Aggro: OOX
Control:XXX
Combo:OOX

Shock is both a card that works in aggro, as it takes out early game blockers and is a cheap spell for a creature like skarn to transform on turn 2 with something like Chlorophyllia right after or Phermones

Plan C = Aggro
Aggro: OOO
Control: XXX
Combo: XXX

Plan C is almost purely an aggro spell dropping all you have to win a game now and then, removing all your mana to do so.

So if we made a deck with let's say 3 I used above with a play set of 4 it would look like

Aggro = 24 / 36 (67%~)
Control = 4 / 36 (11%~)
Combo = 8 / 36 (22%~)

A total of 36 points in which, the majority of the points make it a Primary Aggro Deck. The bot would pick up actions and creatures like Extinction and Paladin of Necro to slow you down. But lets say your deck looked something like.

Aggro = 70/150 (47%~)
Control = 60/150 (40%)
Combo = 20/150 (13%~)

The deck would see it as an aggro control deck with the percentages being so close it would pull out something like. Stone skin and Judgement.

While I'm not saying this exact system, it would like to see the bots be able to handle certain deck archetypes. Because the bots in the arena fall flat on their face to any semi decent aggro deck, where it's harder for control and combo based decks.

An easier way I guess without the point system is look at the mana curve of your deck as

Aggro = High 1-3 cost/ Medium 4-6 Cost/ Low to none 7+ Costs

Control = Low to Medium 1-3 Cost / High 4-6 Costs / Low to Medium amount 7+ Costs

Combo = This would be the hard one for combo because of the various types of combo like Mana Ramp is, High Low Costs / Low Medium Costs / High 7+ Costs. Or Mill would have an around average curve, this it would have to look for key card combinations here and the kind of cards you use.

It would be a cool idea, but as you can see hard to really add.

1. Would the bot look at your deck, and find a card that commonly deals with the majority of your deck?

Would this feel fair, that the bot pretty much counter picks your deck for a few cards? Aka if most your creatures have 1-2 hp... early on would you enjoy the bot getting 4 heat waves now?

2. The point system is hard, because you would have to know the meta before the game has used the card

3. The mana curve is again hard due to combo being such a random type based off it's mana use. I mean the curve from let's say Mana Ramping a big 9 cost is a lot different then a deck combing off of inspiration of around 3 cost creatures. And to also look at it a Control Hybrid deck might have a lot of control early on and go for mid game aggro like black/white vampire and angels? So now the bot thinks you have a decent early game, ran some heatwaves and now he's playing a deck that feels like he designed to counter another deck and you don't get a hard fight since he now has 4 cards that are potentially bad draw.

4. We could mix the systems, but which one of the systems would be the winner, you cant have both systems have the same power or your at a program stalemate where it cant choose to pick heatwave due to a bunch of low costs, or should it focus to counter your more powerful vampire king since murder will remove more creatures then heat wave will.

5. Does he have 20 cards, or access to any card of his colours that could deal with your cards? (I'm guessing Chaos key would be a common pick in the 20 cards). I think the card limit would be good as it could be simplified like this,

He could run kill spells to deal with a deck of a lot of 5+ cost creatures (4)

He could run protection spells if you have offensive spells/buff spells (8)

He could run high defensive creatures early on against aggro (12)

He could run board wipes for decks with a lot of creatures (16)

Chaos Key (20)

nicosharp
05-17-2015, 08:21 PM
really?
If anything, give players a sideboard. This idea seems misguided, and a nightmare for devs

whiteyzz
05-17-2015, 09:00 PM
really?
If anything, give players a sideboard. This idea seems misguided, and a nightmare for devs

Giving us a sideboard... whoa there we can only farm the bots so fast! Honestly you would pretty much have your sideboard to have good boss killing mechanics / counters. Removing the vast challenge... If I'm running murder and I suddenly go up against a robot deck... boom sideboard and 0 useless cards to draw against him and i crush him with a 99.99% win chance not a 99.989%.

Again i pointed out it would be a hard thing to do, but I guess what we could do is have some rules for the bots side board.

Running a deck where murder is 70% useless have him switch it out to chaos key, or give bots a special murder? Because of now, Drawf/Robot's only really worry about extinction and the imps. Every other fight there is pretty much no removal to your scary board presence, other then turbulance. I mean war bot would be a joke to play against just make your side board mostly artifact creatures to replace some of your non important cards then switch back. Warbot is the only AI fight I would really deem hard, and actually feels good to win?

Warbot - Powerful abilities, but it never feels like a RNG fight like Xarlox/Angel/Ect/Ect. He also shows the importance of running some artifacts in your deck if you can.

Xarlox and Paladin of N are both fights you honestly win with no control of your own.

Paladin of N you either have a better hand or it's turn 4 and your dealing with a 12/12 life link, or he never uses his ability

Xarlox is how close did the game put the spiders into your deck

Sadly there are the only two fights that are pro control decks, but still easily get man handled by aggro. Every other deck is WAY to slow, or WAY to specific that feels like it was made to counter some asshole at the office's main deck.

Again it's odd out of everyone you fight all of them are weak to Aggro, but there is ALOT of them that are strong against control (Mosshulk is one with his charge ability pretty much becoming dropping a 10/10 and drawing 5 cards then drawing a 10/10 again two turns later?

nicosharp
05-17-2015, 09:18 PM
I think you are missing the point of what the PvE experience is suppose to be like now. Also, what the PvE experience will be like when there is "actual" PvE.
The Arena is not trivial. Not for the greater 90% of the community. Sure, you can play a dwarf robot deck and clear it pretty easily 95% of the time, but the few of us are not the majority. A tuned deck for Arena specifically is not suppose to have many troubles. The AI is suppose to have flaws. The AI experience in arena is a huge example of changing circumstances already. The bosses and champions are at random. I don't see why adding another level of variance letting each unique encounter "cheat more" help people with their experience of difficulty?

What you are asking for is already being done with many more cards than a simple sideboard.

The experience that is trivial to you, is difficult to new and even some veteran players. Those players in arena, and PvE in general, could use more cards, or a sideboard to help them. This is where mercenaries come in during dungeons.

I'd much rather see future PvE content right now, and AI improvements, than a few more gimmicks added to the current content to improve upon their decks, at significant cost to the AI development time.54

whiteyzz
05-17-2015, 09:33 PM
I think you are missing the point of what the PvE experience is suppose to be like now. Also, what the PvE experience will be like when there is "actual" PvE.
The Arena is not trivial. Not for the greater 90% of the community. Sure, you can play a dwarf robot deck and clear it pretty easily 95% of the time, but the few of us are not the majority. A tuned deck for Arena specifically is not suppose to have many troubles. The AI is suppose to have flaws. The AI experience in arena is a huge example of changing circumstances already. The bosses and champions are at random. I don't see why adding another level of variance letting each unique encounter "cheat more" help people with their experience of difficulty?

What you are asking for is already being done with many more cards than a simple sideboard.

The experience that is trivial to you, is difficult to new and even some veteran players. Those players in arena, and PvE in general, could use more cards, or a sideboard to help them. This is where mercenaries come in during dungeons.

I'd much rather see future PvE content right now, and AI improvements, than a few more gimmicks added to the current content to improve upon their decks, at significant cost to the AI development time.54

Oh no any aggro deck that works really fast just crushes it with 90% success. Dwarfs and Orcs are just a 99% chance and easily obtain with gold. The problem is none of the bosses offer a real challenge with their cards. But I mean there is control decks with no real creatures in it?

Have you seen Xarlox's deck? have you fought him with running into his eggs?... How is he a boss, his whole fight is Oooooh lets hope rng put a spider as the first card!. His end game if you get rid of all the 5/5 spiders is hope you fall asleep and don't attack him for 20 turns. He's not even a fun RNG fight like Princess Correy where loosing to him is just as fun and hilarious as to winning to him. He is less of a threat then the angel fight, I mean heck she get's 4/4 steadfast/flying creatures as early as turn 2.

1. Most the decks are aggro that cant handle other aggro decks

2. Way to slow control/combo decks that let you wail on them for 5-8 turns before it sends something scary. Dropping a thunder bird is a win con against these decks, not 4... just a single thunder bird.


I'm not saying this should be done, this is to pool up ideas of what they think would be cool. I've already pointed out it would be a programming nightmare and hard to do, but it would be a cool idea.I would rather have AI fixes because the charge fight is a joke since he cant use his cloud to save his life.... I think once by accident he actually put a charge on it. No one would argue that the ai needs to be fixed and improved, but the point of this would be interesting ideas, I would hate to see sideboards allowed unless it was REALLY long and only at set points, so if you fixed your deck for one hard fight, you've fixed it for the next 5 fights. Or a limited number of times you can fix your deck.

nicosharp
05-17-2015, 09:38 PM
I'm not going to hammer this down. There is no point. I think you should read what I wrote above again.

Fyren
05-17-2015, 09:53 PM
I'm not saying this should be done, this is to pool up ideas of what they think would be cool. I've already pointed out it would be a programming nightmare and hard to do, but it would be a cool idea.

I'd say that Hex's PVE future is lacking for neither cool ideas nor programming nightmares.

whiteyzz
05-17-2015, 10:03 PM
I'm not going to hammer this down. There is no point. I think you should read what I wrote above again.

What that the bots arn't meant to be perfect either. I understand that... but there is a common problem with the bots and deck design.

None of the decks are really hard, the only "hard" fight are completely due off RNG, and I'm not talking about your deck/draw/ect

Avenging Angel / Scout / Xarlox / Princess Cory (Or how to make a fun RNG fight)... But other then the Scout and Cory, look at their decks.

Xarlox has 2 murders / 1 Extinction and his lowest cost creature is 3 mana, his 5 costs are barely a threat... oh no a 3/3 that gives -1/-1 oh whoops my 5 cost is a 5/6 you stil die... and can still kill everything your deck without taking lethal other then those spiders. I understand he's suppose to be a mill deck, but he's a mill deck which he has to completely rely on his RNG Power. Avenging angel is just as bad as she never buffs the totem, and her scariest creature is a 3/2 until like turn 7-10 in which she normally drops one of her expensive 6-7 costs which she hopefully doesn't turn 1-5 drops for free.

Scout is the only one out of the three that actually has a competent deck that can hold up and prove to be a challenge, but can still feel like a dick loss when turn 3 he has 7 Mana.

Can we get on topic by the way, what would you want to see in PVE?


I'd say that Hex's PVE future is lacking for neither cool ideas nor programming nightmares.

Nothing you think you can add, which you would think that could be fun... I can just think of interesting stuff on the top of my head... PVE Raid draft where you have to draft your decks with your allies (you don't keep the cards that you draft either). But I have to agree with programming with nightmares seaweed behemoth hatred towards storm clouds. I mean I get it buddy you never get the draw a card sac one but hey the others are still useful!