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Assassine
05-22-2015, 10:08 AM
https://www.hextcg.com/friday-update-multi-shard/

how do you spell amazing again?

I hope that army of myth card does not create the same unique troop twice.

Zophie
05-22-2015, 10:18 AM
Extended Arts!!!

Scammanator
05-22-2015, 10:20 AM
Extended Arts!!!

Wow, that's not just a gold sink. That is a gold singularity!

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 10:20 AM
that gold sink is dirty... very very dirty... Love the multi-shard cards.

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 10:22 AM
Wow, that's not just a gold sink. That is a gold singularity!

Insidious! ;)

Cory_Jones
05-22-2015, 10:23 AM
CHARK runs a tight economy...

:)

Assassine
05-22-2015, 10:28 AM
Extended Art just makes me sad. Ill have to completely ignore it and pretend it doesnt exist. No boners were had over this.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 10:28 AM
CHARK runs a tight economy...

:)

Cut-throat you mean! His avatar should be throatcutter :D

I dread trying to EA my collection... *shudder* But man, sexy, can't resist dammit.

Why the insane AA tax though? I feel thats overkill.

mttgamer
05-22-2015, 10:29 AM
Speaking of multi-shard!!!
Check out the new multi-shard cards over on gameinformer!

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/hex_shards_of_fate/b/pc/archive/2015/05/22/check-out-these-exclusive-hex-armies-of-myth-preview-cards.aspx

Scammanator
05-22-2015, 10:30 AM
I am never ever going to be able to build up a gold hoard. I'm going to be spending every single coin as soon as I earn it.

Forever.

havocattack
05-22-2015, 10:31 AM
omgz

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 10:32 AM
And don't forget the existing (and actual!) gold sink, it's not like that's going away... Chests or EA, chests or EA... The constant dilemma...

Assassine
05-22-2015, 10:32 AM
Speaking of multi-shard!!!
Check out the new multi-shard cards over on gameinformer!

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/hex_shards_of_fate/b/pc/archive/2015/05/22/check-out-these-exclusive-hex-armies-of-myth-preview-cards.aspx

Interesting to see that they now actually say Basic Oneshot 1 => Shift instead of just Shift.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 10:33 AM
More drooling! My Johnny is overloading, my collector is crying, and my wallet is hiding.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 10:34 AM
For those of you who want to fully Extended Art your playsets...

Set 1 will cost you 6.26 million gold. Set 2 will cost you 3.756 million gold. This is including the promos/alternate art. Without promos it's 3.86 million and 2.756 million.

Aradon
05-22-2015, 10:35 AM
Question: when double-backs are implemented, will we still be able to earn the EA through the doublebacks, or is this purely a gold-sink approach now?

Also, Lanupaw might be my new favorite card. Triple Prophecy is excellent :D

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 10:36 AM
For those of you who want to fully Extended Art your playsets...

Set 1 will cost you 1,565,000 gold. Set 2 will cost you 939,000 gold. This is including the promos.

Count again? ;)

whiteyzz
05-22-2015, 10:36 AM
Can I just point out Green/Red's Card is going to eat so many murders.... Periwinkle + Eye of the storm = Pure evil


Count again? ;)

To think about that it's around farming a play set of all the AA's is 600k gold so, every card would be around farming 4~ playsets of AA cards right now

ossuary
05-22-2015, 10:38 AM
IMO those rates for EA are outrageous, especially at one card per. If the gold exchange rate gets TOO bad for players paying real money, they'll just stop shelling out, and the bottom will fall out. This toes a very dangerous line.

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 10:38 AM
Question: when double-backs are implemented, will we still be able to earn the EA through the doublebacks, or is this purely a gold-sink approach now?

Very curious about this as well....

IMO those rates for EA are outrageous, especially at one card per. If the gold exchange rate gets TOO bad for players paying real money, they'll just stop shelling out, and the bottom will fall out. This toes a very dangerous line.
Maybe - hard to say now. Obviously this gives all players more ways to convert gold into plat. It's just dirty. Chark is a smart man.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 10:39 AM
IMO those rates for EA are outrageous, especially at one card per. If the gold exchange rate gets TOO bad for players paying real money, they'll just stop shelling out, and the bottom will fall out. This toes a very dangerous line.

I have to agree with this. I already voiced my concern here before, and i feel this crosses the line.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 10:40 AM
Count again? ;)

Fixed. Didn't multiply by 4. >_>

At this rate, I'm probably just not going to bother wasting the gold unless it's art I REALLY like. This hurts my collector side.

ghulzen
05-22-2015, 10:41 AM
Probably a dumb question. But what does an "alternate art" card actually entail? It's a card w/ no flavor text or keywords?

Lukezors
05-22-2015, 10:42 AM
I have to agree with this. I already voiced my concern here before, and i feel this crosses the line.

Agreed. As time goes on more and more features seems to have a very high time or money gate.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 10:42 AM
Probably a dumb question. But what does an "alternate art" card actually entail? It's a card w/ no flavor text or keywords?

It's exactly what it says... a card with different art than the standard stuff, like the 6 commons you can buy in the store for gold right now.

Zubrin
05-22-2015, 10:43 AM
For the record, I called the gold EAs two days ago:

moderator edit: please edit out the names of the people in the screen grab and feel free to repost

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 10:44 AM
It's exactly what it says... a card with different art than the standard stuff, like the 5 commons you can buy in the store for gold right now.

6 commons you mean.

And easy way: all the obtainable cards with an orange rarity symbol.

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 10:45 AM
For the record, I called the gold EAs two days ago:



There goes DeckofManyThings.. sad.
Chark for the love of Kismet - Save DeckofManyThings, and get rid of this sink :)

ghulzen
05-22-2015, 10:45 AM
It's exactly what it says... a card with different art than the standard stuff, like the 5 commons you can buy in the store for gold right now.

So a card like Flik Ape would have 3 version? Regular, alternate, and extended?

Gwaer
05-22-2015, 10:45 AM
10:09-10:11 is the best three seconds of the hex:the passion video.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 10:47 AM
So a card like Flik Ape would have 3 version? Regular, alternate, and extended?

No, extended is just a toggle. You would have 4 versions - Normal, AA, EA Normal, EA AA. But again, those are only toggles, and you can use the card either way (unless that has changed.)

Aradon
05-22-2015, 10:47 AM
So a card like Flik Ape would have 3 version? Regular, alternate, and extended?

And Extended Alternate Art, as well as foil versions of each. Basically, each card may have an alternate art card. Each version can potentially be Extended Art and/or Foiled.

Zophie
05-22-2015, 10:47 AM
*edit: ninja'd by aradon :)

Svenn
05-22-2015, 10:48 AM
6 commons you mean.

And easy way: all the obtainable cards with an orange rarity symbol.

Well, last I heard the orange rarity symbol was changing so I was avoiding describing it that way. ;)


So a card like Flik Ape would have 3 version? Regular, alternate, and extended?
Extended is not a new version. It just takes the existing card and opens up the full art on it (covering the text box). You'll be able to do extended art on both the regular and AA. So it would be Regular, Regular with Extended Art, AA, AA with Extended Art.

kaiizza
05-22-2015, 10:49 AM
It's exactly what it says... a card with different art than the standard stuff, like the 6 commons you can buy in the store for gold right now.

6, there are 6 commons to spend all your golds on. Lots of gold will be needed me thinks.

lol so many posts in a 2 minute time frame. I got ninja'd

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 10:52 AM
For the record, I called the gold EAs two days ago:



I screen captured this at the time and sent it to Cory - true story! Thought it was funny... ;)

Steelio
05-22-2015, 10:55 AM
It's a bit strange why there is another gold sink being introduced when there aren't many reliable ways to farm gold in the first place. I can't even roll all my common and uncommon chests, and bought 0 store AA's. How the devil am I supposed to unlock EA cards?

Jormungandr
05-22-2015, 10:56 AM
No, extended is just a toggle. You would have 4 versions - Normal, AA, EA Normal, EA AA. But again, those are only toggles, and you can use the card either way (unless that has changed.)

This is my question, too. When the extended art was mentioned in the double back discussion, I thought it was going to be an optional toggle (so you had access to both versions with one card) -- is this the case with the gold unlock? Or do you pay to change a card to always have extended art? (The difference is whether you would have to have 4 or 8 copies of an individual card to have full access to both regular and extended art.)

Deckofmanythings
05-22-2015, 10:56 AM
It's a bit strange why there is another gold sink being introduced when there aren't many reliable ways to farm gold in the first place. I can't even roll all my common and uncommon chests, and bought 0 store AA's. How the devil am I supposed to unlock EA cards?

There are a bunch of accounts that are swimming in gold. This sink is for them.

Diesbudt
05-22-2015, 10:58 AM
It's a bit strange why there is another gold sink being introduced when there aren't many reliable ways to farm gold in the first place. I can't even roll all my common and uncommon chests, and bought 0 store AA's. How the devil am I supposed to unlock EA cards?

Maybe they dont want you to be able to collect it all unless you play non stop, thus there is always something to achieve?

Lukezors
05-22-2015, 10:58 AM
There are a bunch of accounts that are swimming in gold. This sink is for them.

But there are also a bunch of accounts that aren't.

Deckofmanythings
05-22-2015, 10:59 AM
For the record, I called the gold EAs two days ago:



I've changed my stance since I view it differently now.

EAs are still based on achievements, only now you only need one achievement to unlock the EA:

"Destroy X Gold. X is based on the rarity of the card."

mttgamer
05-22-2015, 10:59 AM
It's a bit strange why there is another gold sink being introduced when there aren't many reliable ways to farm gold in the first place. I can't even roll all my common and uncommon chests, and bought 0 store AA's. How the devil am I supposed to unlock EA cards?

This....SOOOOOO much this...
I know campaign is going to be a major faucet...

But until that comes out, you have for sinks
1) the AA art cards(which may or may not be changing/going away entirely) - 25k a pop
2) chest rolling -1250-30k a pop
3) extended arts - 1k - 25k a pop

For faucets
1) arena run which is 45 minutes at the blazing fastest is 7k gold for perfect?
2) 100 gold for matchmaking win(laughable, not even sure if it's still in)

We appreciate all the new shinies! but too many sinks not enough faucets...

Cory_Jones
05-22-2015, 11:00 AM
I've changed my stance since I view it differently now.

EAs are still based on achievements, only now you only need one achievement to unlock the EA:

"Destroy X Gold. X is based on the rarity of the card."

thank god, I was going to reach out to you to discuss it...
Chark has a response incoming that I think will help

Kami
05-22-2015, 11:01 AM
There are a bunch of accounts that are swimming in gold. This sink is for them.

The assumption is that those with gold will spend it.

The pay-off has to match and currently the price, in my opinion, is too high when you have limited ways to grind.

I'm sitting on well over 1.2m gold after having spent 600k on the AA cards from the store and I don't think I'll spend any gold on the EA cards at the moment. Especially when they're going to be forever available/unlockable. I've not even spent any gold on spinning a single chest either.

Gold's real purpose for PvE is still yet to be seen, as are chests.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 11:01 AM
But there are also a bunch of accounts that aren't.

To be fair, how many people want to unlock a full playset? Unlocking extended art for a few regular cards isn't that difficult.

As a design, this idea is somewhat genius in that it's an easy gold sink that doesn't introduce anything new into the economy, it's something for people to work towards for a long time, and it will prevent there from being a huge flood of extended art to the point where they mean nothing.

From a collector/completionist perspective on my end... fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. ;)

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 11:04 AM
thank god, I was going to reach out to you to discuss it...
Chark has a response incoming that I think will help

Cool, looking forward to it!

I do hope the AA cost is lowered a little, since it is a humongous jump from even Legendary. I mean, many AA's will be hard enough to obtain, and it is a little unfair that they are also 2.5x more expensive to 'unlock'.

Kami
05-22-2015, 11:05 AM
To be fair, how many people want to unlock a full playset? Unlocking extended art for a few regular cards isn't that difficult.

From a collector/completionist perspective on my end... fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. ;)

Yep.... *in that boat*

Thoom
05-22-2015, 11:06 AM
I think the best way to keep your sanity if you're a collector/completionist is to think of EA cards on the deck level (since they're only usable in constructed). Instead of unlocking your whole collection, just unlock your favorite decks. That seems a lot more manageable.

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 11:07 AM
To be fair, how many people want to unlock a full playset? Unlocking extended art for a few regular cards isn't that difficult.

As a design, this idea is somewhat genius in that it's an easy gold sink that doesn't introduce anything new into the economy, it's something for people to work towards for a long time, and it will prevent there from being a huge flood of extended art to the point where they mean nothing.

From a collector/completionist perspective on my end... fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. ;)

Yeah, the design intent is that folks unlock their favorite cards, maybe a couple of their competitive decks. The few, the proud, the absolutely f&^%ing insane will unlock a playset of every card... ;)

Kami
05-22-2015, 11:08 AM
The few, the proud, the absolutely f&^%ing insane will unlock a playset of every card... ;)

I don't know about insane... more like masochistic with OCD tendencies and self-loathing. *whistles innocently and attaches halo*

(Because I am totally in that category, at least as far as HEX is concerned.)

Assassine
05-22-2015, 11:09 AM
Yeah, the design intent is that folks unlock their favorite cards, maybe a couple of their competitive decks. The few, the proud, the absolutely f&^%ing insane will unlock a playset of every card... ;)

More like the filthy rich. Dont sugarcoat it.

ryuukan
05-22-2015, 11:10 AM
I understand the need for gold sinks, but this just feels like a software development concession.

I hope we get a KS update to discuss other promised features that have proven unfeasible

vickrpg
05-22-2015, 11:11 AM
I would very much like an answer to:
1) the "toggle off" switch question. Once a card has been EA unlocked must it always be DISPLAYED as such? or will there be an option to show border as well?

2) The Doubleback question. Is this a permanent change, or will double backs also unlock them? When doublebacks are in, will it be EITHER the achievement OR the gold still available or will the gold sink be removed? Or has the plan changed completely and EA and DoubleBacks are no longer tied together?

3) Does this mean we finally get our Dragon's blood starters?
3a) If yes, does that mean another starter trial?
3b) Will the starter contain Set 3 cards? Set 2? Can we get any information on this?

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 11:13 AM
More like the filthy rich. Dont sugarcoat it.

I don't think money will actually help on the scale Gold is needed for this. ;)

WTB Gold PST

Assassine
05-22-2015, 11:14 AM
Worst case money buys you the extended arts on the auction house after other people unlocked them.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 11:14 AM
I would very much like an answer to:
1) the "toggle off" switch question. Once a card has been EA unlocked must it always be DISPLAYED as such? or will there be an option to show border as well?
Good question. I hope this is still the case.


2) The Doubleback question. Is this a permanent change, or will double backs also unlock them? When doublebacks are in, will it be EITHER the achievement OR the gold still available or will the gold sink be removed? Or has the plan changed completely and EA and DoubleBacks are no longer tied together?
The wording on the article makes it seem like it's no longer tied to double backs at all.


3) Does this mean we finally get our Dragon's blood starters?
3a) If yes, does that mean another starter trial?
3b) Will the starter contain Set 3 cards? Set 2? Can we get any information on this?
Unfortunately, I don't think this is happening. It's a FOILED extended art Urunaaz included, and we don't have foils yet.

Scammanator
05-22-2015, 11:15 AM
I agree that Extended Art cards should feel rare, but obtainable. And I think this high gold cost attains that goal.

However, individual cards achievements unlocking something on the card was my absolute favorite feature described in the Kickstarter campaign. It's what convinced me that Hex will have near-infinite replayability, and that it was worth investing in. I really, really hope that card achievements have not been scrapped as a double-back feature, and that they are being used with something else that's just as cool.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 11:15 AM
Yeah, the design intent is that folks unlock their favorite cards, maybe a couple of their competitive decks. The few, the proud, the absolutely f&^%ing insane will unlock a playset of every card... ;)

I am insane, but I don't know if I am that insane. Grinding for a playset of the store AA's was already a slog...

The problems with doing them on the deck level is I make a LOT of decks, so I feel like I am always going to be dissatisfied unless I have a full deck done, which means I will likely need to EA almost every card anyway.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 11:16 AM
I would very much like an answer to:
1) the "toggle off" switch question. Once a card has been EA unlocked must it always be DISPLAYED as such? or will there be an option to show border as well?

2) The Doubleback question. Is this a permanent change, or will double backs also unlock them? When doublebacks are in, will it be EITHER the achievement OR the gold still available or will the gold sink be removed? Or has the plan changed completely and EA and DoubleBacks are no longer tied together?

3) Does this mean we finally get our Dragon's blood starters?
3a) If yes, does that mean another starter trial?
3b) Will the starter contain Set 3 cards? Set 2? Can we get any information on this?

Wasn't the Uruunaz starter waiting on foil?

vickrpg
05-22-2015, 11:21 AM
@Svenn, Xenavire

Crap I forgot about foil. But I'd still love official responses...

and while we're at it

3c) if EA is a toggle that can be unlocked via gold, can't we do the same to foil? mark the card somehow, make it obvious to the player(to distinguish different Uru copies), add the foil to the art later, give us our decks, profit. Just a thought.

4) Will EAs have a different AH price floor?

5) Can we have another AMA? I keep thinking up too many questions to post...

Gwaer
05-22-2015, 11:25 AM
I'll be honest, I largely agree with the concern. Especially the AA price. Getting AA's should feel like an achievement. This adds quite a bit of unfun to the AA Collector. Plus I always considered unlocking EA'S with double backs a necessity. The extended arts are just so superior to the normal. I'm pretty much having to resign myself not to extended art anything. Which is a real shame.

Also I kind of feel like it was a mistake buying up my complete playset. If I hadn't I would just start buying the extended art versions of all cards. Almost certainly what this will do is drive the price of non extended cards down.

On the other hand chark is right, none of this is necessary but I'm definitely meh on the situation. Those AA EA prices are just so daunting.

hammer
05-22-2015, 11:28 AM
I love the concept but I cant help feeling the Alternate Art cost is really crazy and should be closer to half.

Lukezors
05-22-2015, 11:29 AM
I'll be honest, I largely agree with the concern. Especially the AA price. Getting AA's should feel like an achievement. This adds quite a bit of unfun to the AA Collector. Plus I always considered unlocking EA'S with double backs a necessity. The extended arts are just so superior to the normal. I'm pretty much having to resign myself not to extended art anything. Which is a real shame.

Also I kind of feel like it was a mistake buying up my complete playset. If I hadn't I would just start buying the extended art versions of all cards. Almost certainly what this will do is drive the price of non extended cards down.

I think this actually explains a lot of my disappointment. Previously I was thinking, with doublebacks, I would just keep playing my decks until I unlocked foil/EA for the cards in them.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 11:29 AM
Yeah, the crazy thing here is that the store AA's now represent 1.2 million gold spent if you want the most 'complete' version of the playsets. 600k for the original purchase, and another 600k if you want the EA's - that is 1.2 million spent per player that happens to really like complete collections of stuff.

That is incredibly steep. I think 15000 would be more reasonable for AA's, or simply lock them to legendary prices, because the sheer amount of gold needed to 'pimp out' a deck is going to be very exclusionary, for such a cool feature.

Avaian
05-22-2015, 11:30 AM
I have mixed feelings about having extended art purchasable by gold.

I love the idea of a gold sink like this because there will always be demand for it.

However, Extended art was one of the reasons I am/was so pumped for double-back cards. I have never been a fan of foil cards in real-life or Video games, so that being part of double back was irrelevant to me.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 11:36 AM
I think this actually explains a lot of my disappointment. Previously I was thinking, with doublebacks, I would just keep playing my decks until I unlocked foil/EA for the cards in them.

Yeah, same here.

striderz
05-22-2015, 11:37 AM
Time to bring back gold payouts for drafts & tournaments.

Mahes
05-22-2015, 11:38 AM
Well, I know my AA mirror Knight gets the first unlock. The cost is a bit high but the there has to be a middle ground between making it easy and making it rare. Everyone would obviously play the EA versions if they had them. As much as this seems "OMG THE COST", that is exactly what I should be thinking when I take on an opponent who is using EA's in his deck.

The only problem I have, which has been brought up, is the lack of faucets that produce the gold. Yes, I could play Arena until I puked pixels but I do not think that was the idea behind the game. The game should not "Feel" like a grind. Some grind is ok but not to this extent. I would suggest perhaps modifying the Arena in this manner. Add in 2 more "Rare bosses" like the dragon. Increase the chances to see the dragon(or one of the 2 new bosses) but decrease the amount of gold for winning. This way a player feels less frustrated never seeing one of the bosses and it gives reason to actually play a competitive deck that takes longer to play. As the Arena is now, playing the artifact deck is the way to go because it is fast and you never see the dragon anyways.

Cory_Jones
05-22-2015, 11:40 AM
Also did you see this!
http://www.gameinformer.com/games/hex_shards_of_fate/b/pc/archive/2015/05/22/check-out-these-exclusive-hex-armies-of-myth-preview-cards.aspx

Windsinger is SO great, I really love the card... way to go designer extraordinaire Matt Dunn!

also thanks to Dan Tack for running the preview and article :)

Oli
05-22-2015, 11:40 AM
You can unlock up to 7 commons (2 playsets) or 2 rares in one arena-run. That's pretty fast.
You can get the extended-art version of a arena-deck in a few runs, and you can even see how your deck improves after each game.

I expected this to take much longer with double-backs.
So in contrast to the other posters here I would say the costs are not pricey enough to make obtaining these extended versions a real achievement...

ryuukan
05-22-2015, 11:42 AM
Also did you see this!
http://www.gameinformer.com/games/hex_shards_of_fate/b/pc/archive/2015/05/22/check-out-these-exclusive-hex-armies-of-myth-preview-cards.aspx

Windsinger is SO great, I really love the card... way to go designer extraordinaire Matt Dunn!

also thanks to Dan Tack for running the preview and article :)

Using set spoilers as a smokescreen for canceled features :(

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 11:44 AM
Using set spoilers as a smokescreen for canceled features :(

What cancelled features? Nothing is cancelled. If anything it's an extra feature! ;) EAs and Doublebacks!!! :)

Zophie
05-22-2015, 11:46 AM
I think this is technically a solid idea for an efficient gold sink, but personally I'm pretty sad about the high costs and not so thrilled about having to choose between EAs and chest spins and gold AAs and all that. Maybe there will be more gold faucets and it will be easier to get gold when the full PVE campaign is released and these costs won't seem so bad then, but I dunno... I agree with others in that I preferred the idea of just unlocking EAs through specific gameplay related achievements using the actual cards.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 11:46 AM
Also did you see this!
http://www.gameinformer.com/games/hex_shards_of_fate/b/pc/archive/2015/05/22/check-out-these-exclusive-hex-armies-of-myth-preview-cards.aspx

Windsinger is SO great, I really love the card... way to go designer extraordinaire Matt Dunn!

also thanks to Dan Tack for running the preview and article :)

Yeah, I am up to date on all the spoilers, and man, the art and the effect is a double whammy like no other!

Duplicitous Duke is neat too, will definitely build around.

MatWith1T
05-22-2015, 11:47 AM
I don't understand the claim that EA costs are too high... this is cosmetic status symbol stuff meant for endgame play when you have no other functional use for your gold - and we're claiming it's overpriced based on the lowest-tier entry level dungeon's payout table? A Rolls Royce is unfairly expensive too when you are a kid with a lemonade stand.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 11:47 AM
You can unlock up to 7 commons (2 playsets) or 2 rares in one arena-run. That's pretty fast.
You can get the extended-art version of a arena-deck in a few runs, and you can even see how your deck improves after each game.

I expected this to take much longer with double-backs.
So in contrast to the other posters here I would say the costs are not pricey enough to make obtaining these extended versions a real achievement...

If you think that, unlock my Mono Sapphire Deck for me which alone takes more than a million gold.

Edit: Mat, we already know that PvE will only pay gold at the same rate as arena, thats not an argument. Theres no way of making more than that lemon stand pays, nor will there be.

Erukk
05-22-2015, 11:48 AM
Well... Just when you think the gold conversion rate couldn't get any worse. :p

I'm definitely looking forward to them adding more pve comes Fall-ish, if only for another revenue of obtaining gold. I must control my OCD. Lol

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 11:48 AM
You can unlock up to 7 commons (2 playsets) or 2 rares in one arena-run. That's pretty fast.
You can get the extended-art version of a arena-deck in a few runs, and you can even see how your deck improves after each game.

I expected this to take much longer with double-backs.
So in contrast to the other posters here I would say the costs are not pricey enough to make obtaining these extended versions a real achievement...

Uhhh - the difference is that you could work on an entire deck at once before. Now you are doing it on a card by card basis, and AA's are ridiculously costed considering they are already only a cosmetic difference.

Cory_Jones
05-22-2015, 11:49 AM
Using set spoilers as a smokescreen for canceled features :(

No feature has been cancelled and I don't appreciate the hyperbolic comment, double back is still coming and will offer unlocks, we have moved EA but that doesn't mean double back will not be as much if not MORE exciting than originally promised, the number of things we can do with a digital card is almost limitless...

ryuukan
05-22-2015, 11:49 AM
What cancelled features? Nothing is cancelled. If anything it's an extra feature! ;) EAs and Doublebacks!!! :)

This feels like HexEnt offered me candy and then later told me "you're not getting any candy" and then sent me a bill for preventing tooth decay

Khendral
05-22-2015, 11:51 AM
Until we get more faucets, I will unlock EA on my pauper/rock deck and nothing else. Perks of having 56/60 cards coincide, 44k gold should be affordable.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 11:51 AM
I don't understand the claim that EA costs are too high... this is cosmetic status symbol stuff meant for endgame play when you have no other functional use for your gold - and we're claiming it's overpriced based on the lowest-tier entry level dungeon's payout table? A Rolls Royce is unfairly expensive too when you are a kid with a lemonade stand.

Arena is not 'entry level' - tier 1 is tuned to be as close to entry level as they could go, but entry level literally means the shallow slope that introduces players to the game, and sadly arena is not that (the curve is insanely steep after tier 1.)

So what you are actually saying is that the 700~ ish gold for tier 1 is the yardstick that we shouldn't be measuring these by - the other 3 tiers are most definitely comparable. But lets all hope for better faucets in the future.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 11:52 AM
Before, EA was like "take this card with you and eventually itll become more awesome".
Now its just pay. That doesnt feel right.

N3rd4Christ
05-22-2015, 11:53 AM
No feature has been cancelled and I don't appreciate the hyperbolic comment, double back is still coming and will offer unlocks, we have moved EA but that doesn't mean double back will not be as much if not MORE exciting than originally promised, the number of things we can do with a digital card is almost limitless...


Can we just get authenticator support already?

Pretty please..... Oh and tablet version would be nice too :P

But Authenticator mainly.

ryuukan
05-22-2015, 11:54 AM
No feature has been cancelled and I don't appreciate the hyperbolic comment, double back is still coming and will offer unlocks, we have moved EA but that doesn't mean double back will not be as much if not MORE exciting than originally promised, the number of things we can do with a digital card is almost limitless...

I have no doubt your team's ideas are limitless. However, this update shows there are limits in translating your creativity.

Promising more wonders doesn't give a lot of hope to a feature that was highly touted and hasn't materialized yet

Rycajo
05-22-2015, 11:55 AM
Before, EA was like "take this card with you and eventually itll become more awesome".
Now its just pay. That doesnt feel right.

As Cory said moments ago, they will have things to unlock on the doubleback. It just isn't EA now.

N3rd4Christ
05-22-2015, 11:55 AM
Oh and by the way my OCD is flaring up.

Oli
05-22-2015, 11:57 AM
Uhhh - the difference is that you could work on an entire deck at once before. Now you are doing it on a card by card basis, and AA's are ridiculously costed considering they are already only a cosmetic difference.

But on the other hand if you use doublebacks for the alternate-art it could take a really long time too. Make 200 damage with this "burn" would take quite some time too for example (as you will play it only one time each game, and not every game). As long as we have no comparison to the doubleback-unlock it's hard to tell if it's faster/easier or not.

What I'm missing is some opportunity for non PvE-players (casual PvP) to achieve these unlocks on their own instead of buying these on the AH. This would have been possible with achievements. But hopefully there are other possibilities in the works already.

Gwaer
05-22-2015, 11:57 AM
This feels like HexEnt offered me candy and then later told me "you're not getting any candy" and then sent me a bill for preventing tooth decay

The way you're expressing the feeling is offensive, but I get that's just how you express yourself. But more or less the feeling I understand. Before today we had a feature coming that meant we would have to go back to all these cards and level them up and be rewarded with how the cards should look. I get that. It's sad. The devs should understand that feeling. But clearly their intention is to get the extended art feature out, since it's done. I love the extended arts. I know why they wanted to release it. But to unlock a playset of any AA You effectively have to kill uruunaz 4 times. Or run the arena 60 times. Yes eventually there will be more gold faucets. But there will also be more gold sinks. So yes. In a way we've lost something. We've also gained something. I'm not against it in principle. Just maybe think the balance could be tweaked. If gold becomes too valuable there will also be economic consequences. Hopefully they've considered that.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 11:57 AM
For those curious... Costs broken down for a full playset per rarity level.
Set 1
Alternate Art 2400000
Legendary 920000
Rare 1696000
Uncommon 792000
Common 452000

Set 2
Alternate Art 1000000
Legendary 720000
Rare 1136000
Uncommon 528000
Common 372000

Unlocking a full playset of Set 2 Rare EAs is more expensive than a playset of Set 2 AA EAs... but that's 71 rares vs 10 AAs.

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 11:58 AM
I have no doubt your team's ideas are limitless. However, this update shows there are limits in translating your creativity.

Promising more wonders doesn't give a lot of hope to a feature that was highly touted and hasn't materialized yet

There's no limits in translating the creativity. It's about timing and prioritization. Doublebacks are a huge effort, other stuff needs to come first.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 11:59 AM
As Cory said moments ago, they will have things to unlock on the doubleback. It just isn't EA now.

Which doesnt change the fact that getting EA changed from beeing a cool thing youll eventually get on the side by just playing the game to something you have to purchase at a price that most people will never be able to afford.

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 11:59 AM
For those curious... Costs broken down for a full playset per rarity level.
Set 1
Alternate Art 2400000
Legendary 920000
Rare 1696000
Uncommon 792000
Common 452000

Set 2
Alternate Art 1000000
Legendary 720000
Rare 1136000
Uncommon 528000
Common 372000

Unlocking a full playset of Rare EAs is more expensive than AA EAs for Set 2... but that's 71 rares vs 10 AAs.
So many Zeroes... My head imploded.

N3rd4Christ
05-22-2015, 12:01 PM
I think the part I'll miss most is having to use cards to get their EA. now just farm arena and spend winnings on eA upgrades

MatWith1T
05-22-2015, 12:02 PM
Arena is not 'entry level' - tier 1 is tuned to be as close to entry level as they could go, but entry level literally means the shallow slope that introduces players to the game, and sadly arena is not that (the curve is insanely steep after tier 1.)

So what you are actually saying is that the 700~ ish gold for tier 1 is the yardstick that we shouldn't be measuring these by - the other 3 tiers are most definitely comparable. But lets all hope for better faucets in the future.

Did I miss a statement that endgame raids and dungeons aren't ever going to pay out any better than the arena currently does? That sounds... counterintuitive to level design.

szimek
05-22-2015, 12:03 PM
I kinda like the EA gold sink. It's forever, it doesn't change the game and you can buy EA for you cards, whenever you have some extra gold. You don't have to unlock it right away. You can do it now, 3 years from now, or not at all. That's what is cool with it. With the upcoming dungeons, there will be better ways to get gold, so the prices won't be as scary as right now. I'm one of those insane people, Colin mentioned and i'll try to unlock full sets of EA and i'll try to have them all, but i'll do it over time. One card today, next one in a few days, and maybe 2 more after next dungeon/arena/raid clear.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 12:03 PM
Yes, you did Mat. It was stated several times that in terms of gold / hour, the rate of arena is what well also get in the future.


With the upcoming dungeons, there will be better ways to get gold, so the prices won't be as scary as right now.

Yeah no, there wont.

ryuukan
05-22-2015, 12:05 PM
There's no limits in translating the creativity. It's about timing and prioritization. Doublebacks are a huge effort, other stuff needs to come first.

What else to come in this game isn't a "huge effort"? I would imagine all of it is.

Dungeons are a huge effort so we got a stripped down version that we call the Arena

Doublebacks are a huge effort so Extended Arts are just shop items now

Waiting to hear what the awful outcome of Spectral Lotus Gardens will be, maybe an exclusive garden sleeve instead.

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 12:06 PM
I do not really like the buying of extended art for gold. From my understanding, in the original plan we would have been able to play PVP or PvE to unlock EA for our cards. But now we only get the choice of either grinding PvE or pulling out our wallets to get EA. I understand the idea behind giving gold high value, but what ever happened to the idea of fun?

Actually playing HEX PvP to unlock these things is part of what appealed to me from the kickstarter, I didn't want to have to spend money on this, nor grind PvE. It was also something I felt added fun and replayability to the game. Now we lose some of our fun and replayability just so gold can be more valuable.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 12:07 PM
I do not really like the buying of extended art for gold. From my understanding, in the original plan we would have been able to play PVP or PvE to unlock EA for our cards. But now we only get the choice of either grinding PvE or pulling out our wallets to get EA. I understand the idea behind giving gold high value, but what ever happened to the idea of fun?

Actually playing HEX PvP to unlock these things is part of what appealed to me from the kickstarter, I didn't want to have to spend money on this, nor grind PvE. It was also something I felt added fun and replayability to the game. Now we lose some of our fun and replayability just so gold can be more valuable.

+1

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 12:08 PM
I do not really like the buying of extended art for gold. From my understanding, in the original plan we would have been able to play PVP or PvE to unlock EA for our cards. But now we only get the choice of either grinding PvE or pulling out our wallets to get EA. I understand the idea behind giving gold high value, but what ever happened to the idea of fun?

Actually playing HEX PvP to unlock these things is part of what appealed to me from the kickstarter, I didn't want to have to spend money on this, nor grind PvE. It was also something I felt added fun and replayability to the game. Now we lose some of our fun and replayability just so gold can be more valuable.
Did you miss Cory's update Torture? He said Doublebacks will still "unlock" something else, potentially even better?
Maybe card animations / foil / etc.?

For the most part I agree with you though.. It is dirty. Not in a nice way. I see it's long term appeal, but its hard to stomach now. Even given the current limited content and cards available.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 12:09 PM
What else to come in this game isn't a "huge effort"? I would imagine all of it is.

Dungeons are a huge effort so we got a stripped down version that we call the Arena

Doublebacks are a huge effort so Extended Arts are just shop items now

Waiting to hear what the awful outcome of Spectral Lotus Gardens will be, maybe an exclusive garden sleeve instead.
Arena is not a replacement for Dungeons. Extended Art is not a replacement for Double Backs. Nothing has been removed or stripped down. Everything is still coming. They are giving us stuff in the meantime while the big stuff is still being worked on because it's a massive undertaking.

Zophie
05-22-2015, 12:11 PM
Did you miss Cory's update Torture? He said Doublebacks will still "unlock" something else, potentially even better?
Maybe card animations / foil / etc.?

For the most part I agree with you though.. It is dirty. Not in a nice way. I see it's long term appeal, but its hard to stomach now. Even given the current limited content and cards available.

The other thing to keep in mind is that any foil/animated card unlocks would essentially be gimped if you don't also pay the gold to unlock the extended version...

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 12:13 PM
The other thing to keep in mind is that any foil/animated card unlocks would essentially be gimped if you don't also pay the gold to unlock the extended version...
Of course, the ultimate ultimate pinnacle of exclusivity will be an Animated/Foil/AA/EA

Mahes
05-22-2015, 12:17 PM
I must say that it might not be the worst of ideas to reintroduce gold back into the PvP realm. Since EA's are no longer something that can be acquired through PvPing(Save direct purchasing) and because the Arena is kind of old now for most players, why not put back the gold rewards as they used to be?

Svenn
05-22-2015, 12:18 PM
I must say that it might not be the worst of ideas to reintroduce gold back into the PvP realm. Since EA's are no longer something that can be acquired through PvPing(Save direct purchasing) and because the Arena is kind of old now for most players, why not put back the gold rewards as they used to be?

The whole idea is to promote the interdependence so that gold is valuable to PvP players allowing PvE players to get PvP stuff for gold.

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 12:24 PM
Did you miss Cory's update Torture? He said Doublebacks will still "unlock" something else, potentially even better?
Maybe card animations / foil / etc.?

For the most part I agree with you though.. It is dirty. Not in a nice way. I see it's long term appeal, but its hard to stomach now. Even given the current limited content and cards available.

Yes, I know there will still be double backs. And sure, they can add more to them. But that does not change the fact that this has been removed from them. Double backs could have had all that awesome stuff + extended art. An approach that would have prioritized the value of fun.

Tazelbain
05-22-2015, 12:25 PM
Is chest opening suppose to be a gold fountain also?

yoyogod
05-22-2015, 12:25 PM
Well, you can add me to the list of people who are annoyed that EA has gone from "something you can unlock by playing" to "something you can unlock by paying out a ton of gold." Sure Cory said we'll have other stuff to unlock on the double back, which is cool, but without knowing what any of those other things are (except presumably foiling), I can't say if they're things I'd rather have than EA (I know animations definitely aren't something I'd prefer, so I hope it's not that).

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 12:26 PM
Yes, I know there will still be double backs. And sure, they can add more to them. But that does not change the fact that this has been removed from them. Double backs could have had all that awesome stuff + extended art. An approach that would have prioritized the value of fun.
It would be nice to know if we waited for double-backs, would we still be able to unlock EA's for free with them? I don't think that has been clearly addressed yet.

szimek
05-22-2015, 12:30 PM
Is chest opening suppose to be a gold fountain also?

It was mentioned way back, that gold will drop from chests. Dunno if that changed or not.

MatWith1T
05-22-2015, 12:32 PM
But not with Cory, pick some of the people that actually make the decisions

#ShotsFired

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 12:35 PM
We could really use another one of those "State of the Union"/AMA deals right about now

But not with Cory, pick some of the people that actually make the decisions

Are you actively trying to get banned? Hundreds of folks are (mostly) politely debating the merits of the update. You, however, are not one of them. :(

incitfulmonk21
05-22-2015, 12:37 PM
We could really use another one of those "State of the Union"/AMA deals right about now

But not with Cory, pick some of the people that actually make the decisions

Wow just wow. I can't imagine why they aren't more eager to respond to someone who makes such personal attacks.

On the topic. Love the multishards been waiting forever for them and very excited. Was waiting for the new gold sink announcement looks like buying up the AA commons is for me :). Hopefully we can still unlock EA through play though.


I noticed a few of the Coyotle look as though they exist in a different realm then Entrath. Very different coloring and texturing wonder what that might be about.

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 12:39 PM
Are you actively trying to get banned? Hundreds of folks are (mostly) politely debating the merits of the update. You, however, are not one of them. :(

It is a rather passive-aggressive way of saying it, but I understand what he is trying to say (I think).

Thoom
05-22-2015, 12:40 PM
Hopefully we can still unlock EA through play though.

We absolutely need a definitive answer on whether this will ever be possible before they're available to spend gold on. I'm guessing the answer is "no", but I'd like to hear it explicitly.

vickrpg
05-22-2015, 12:42 PM
We could really use another one of those "State of the Union"/AMA deals right about now

But not with Cory, pick some of the people that actually make the decisions

First, I would like to remind the audience that I am in no way in support or agreement of this indivudual nor his way of speaking, Cory has been by far the president most involved in the community of any game project I've ever seen. He has been prompt about answering questions and receptive to constructive suggestions, and I appreciate him reading this very thread to plug other stuff we might not know about.

Then, I would love an AMA with Cory. Or anyone. I have questions(lots). We have implied answers.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 12:43 PM
I can't say I would object to an AMA ( the last one was very entertaining) there is no way HexEnt should be swayed by such a callous comment. Someone needs to remember where a lot of these creative ideas came from, and understand that things change to be more practical because (surprise surprise) they are more practical.

negativeZer0
05-22-2015, 12:44 PM
Absolutely HATE this change.

If this is just temporary until Double Back is added in and DB will still unlock Extended Art in the future then forget what i said as well as everything below and simply substitute. "This is great news!"

However that's not what it sounds like by reading the dev replies here. While I have no doubt DB is still coming that doesnt make this any less of a unicornpoop sandwich. This sucks for those of us that prefer PvP play. You HAVE INDEED taken away a feature from us. Double Back meant I could earn these EA cards while playing my decks in pvp. Now I no longer have that ability.

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 12:47 PM
Absolutely HATE this change.

If this is just temporary until Double Back is added in and DB will still unlock Extended Art in the future then forget what i said as well as everything below and simply substitute. "This is great news!"

However that's not what it sounds like by reading the dev replies here. While I have no doubt DB is still coming that doesnt make this any less of a shit sandwich. This sucks for those of us that prefer PvP play. You HAVE INDEED taken away a feature from us. Double Back meant I could earn these EA cards while playing my decks in pvp. Now I no longer have that ability.

That was never the case. The original concept (not even a design) was that some combination of achievements would unlock EA. There was never any promise or guarantee that those would all have been PVP.

negativeZer0
05-22-2015, 12:49 PM
That was never the case. The original concept (not even a design) was that some combination of achievements would unlock EA. There was never any promise or guarantee that those would all have been PVP.

All of the examples given when this system was show to us were things you could do during normal play. PVE cards I can see having PVE accomplishments but the examples we were given allowed for everything I said to be true.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 12:49 PM
That was never the case. The original concept (not even a design) was that some combination of achievements would unlock EA. There was never any promise or guarantee that those would all have been PVP.

Exactly this - there was an achievement for winning a tournament with a card. There could have just as easily been an achievement for beating Uruunaz. And I know for a fact that 99% of PvP only players would hate that.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 12:49 PM
For those worried about this EA change... is it because Doublebacks is a really cool idea or is it because you're worried about how long it will take to unlock?

If you're worried about it because Doublebacks sounded awesome before... there's still foils and plenty of other cool things they could do with doubleback unlocks. I wouldn't worry about that.

If you're worried about the time to unlock the EA... I guarantee gold unlocking is far easier than the doublebacks would be. Imagine something like Murder. Achievement would be something like murdering 50 troops with that card. Now, you need to do this for all 4 copies, so that's 200 murders minimum. You're looking at once a game per card AT BEST. Several hundred games for ONE of the three achievements needed. Even if they were something slightly easier to get you have to draw that specific card in any given game. This is going to be a VERY long process, longer than purchasing it with gold.

Zophie
05-22-2015, 12:51 PM
I don't mind this gold sink so much as a temporary option for unlocking EAs until doublebacks are finished... but when doublebacks come I hope all this can still be unlocked by specifically using the cards in gameplay, not just pumping gold into them.


For those worried about this EA change... is it because Doublebacks is a really cool idea or is it because you're worried about how long it will take to unlock?

Not really concerned about time required to unlock, just prefer the idea of unlocking all the card enhancements by using the cards themselves in gameplay.

negativeZer0
05-22-2015, 12:52 PM
Exactly this - there was an achievement for winning a tournament with a card. There could have just as easily been an achievement for beating Uruunaz. And I know for a fact that 99% of PvP only players would hate that.

Ya but its pretty unicornpoop common sense development that any PVE specific achievements would go on PVE cards.


I don't mind this gold sink so much as a temporary option for unlocking EAs until doublebacks are finished... but when doublebacks come I hope all this can still be unlocked by specifically using the cards in gameplay, not just pumping gold into them.

Again if this is the case I retract ALL complaints and I think this is an awesome place holder but it sounds like this is not the case.


For those worried about this EA change... is it because Doublebacks is a really cool idea or is it because you're worried about how long it will take to unlock?

If you're worried about it because Doublebacks sounded awesome before... there's still foils and plenty of other cool things they could do with doubleback unlocks. I wouldn't worry about that.

If you're worried about the time to unlock the EA... I guarantee gold unlocking is far easier than the doublebacks would be. Imagine something like Murder. Achievement would be something like murdering 50 troops with that card. Now, you need to do this for all 4 copies, so that's 200 murders minimum. You're looking at once a game per card AT BEST. Several hundred games for ONE of the three achievements needed. Even if they were something slightly easier to get you have to draw that specific card in any given game. This is going to be a VERY long process, longer than purchasing it with gold.

The issue is for pvp players not the length of time it takes. As a pvp player I would still have been able to unlock EA cards simply by plaything the game. The other half is that it may take way longer to get the murder achievement then to earn the gold for EA but while you are working on that achievement you are also working on ALL of the other cards in your deck. Now you are just grinding gold for 1 card at a time.

plaguedealer
05-22-2015, 12:53 PM
I love the EA gold sink it helps f2p players and that will help Hex, it is a great idea.

Lukezors
05-22-2015, 12:53 PM
For those worried about this EA change... is it because Doublebacks is a really cool idea or is it because you're worried about how long it will take to unlock?

If you're worried about it because Doublebacks sounded awesome before... there's still foils and plenty of other cool things they could do with doubleback unlocks. I wouldn't worry about that.

If you're worried about the time to unlock the EA... I guarantee gold unlocking is far easier than the doublebacks would be. Imagine something like Murder. Achievement would be something like murdering 50 troops with that card. Now, you need to do this for all 4 copies, so that's 200 murders minimum. You're looking at once a game per card AT BEST. Several hundred games for ONE of the three achievements needed. Even if they were something slightly easier to get you have to draw that specific card in any given game. This is going to be a VERY long process, longer than purchasing it with gold.

That's true but gold is useful for more than just EA. In the previous model we could grind arena for achievements and get gold for other things such as chests or use on the AH.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 12:54 PM
Ya but its pretty unicornpoop common sense development that any PVE specific achievements would go on PVE cards.



Again if this is the case I retract ALL complaints and I think this is an awesome place holder but it sounds like this is not the case.

Not necessarily. And that was never promised. I certainly never expected that PvP cards would ONLY have PvP achievements.

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 12:55 PM
That was never the case. The original concept (not even a design) was that some combination of achievements would unlock EA. There was never any promise or guarantee that those would all have been PVP.

We were told what sorts of things achievements would be like, and these things were perfectly feasible to accomplish via PvP play:

https://www.hextcg.com/double-back/

If this game was not meant to have these things achievable through PvP play then I have, sadly, backed the wrong game from the get-go.

Lukezors
05-22-2015, 12:55 PM
Exactly this - there was an achievement for winning a tournament with a card. There could have just as easily been an achievement for beating Uruunaz. And I know for a fact that 99% of PvP only players would hate that.

I guess I was thinking that the achievements would be more realistic int he final execution.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 12:55 PM
Ya but its pretty unicornpoop common sense development that any PVE specific achievements would go on PVE cards.

Well, no, that doesn't make any sense - why force PvP cards to be used in PvP to get their EA versions, when PvP cards are allowed to be used in PvE? You are locking people into certain play styles. Therefore, if tournaments are fair game, so is PvE, otherwise you are shoehorning PvE players into playing PvP that they don't want to play while PvP players get everything just handed to them - no reason to cross trade there, which only harms the market.

The whole idea was far from ideal, and I am very glad they made it more accessible. I just don't agree with the insane AA costs.

vickrpg
05-22-2015, 12:56 PM
Absolutely HATE this change.

If this is just temporary until Double Back is added in and DB will still unlock Extended Art in the future then forget what i said as well as everything below and simply substitute. "This is great news!"

However that's not what it sounds like by reading the dev replies here. While I have no doubt DB is still coming that doesnt make this any less of a unicornpoop sandwich. This sucks for those of us that prefer PvP play. You HAVE INDEED taken away a feature from us. Double Back meant I could earn these EA cards while playing my decks in pvp. Now I no longer have that ability.

This is one of the reasons I ask questions before jumping to conclusions.

Scenario 1) This is a temporary solution and when double backs are in, the Gold sink will be removed and the DB will be implemented as originally planned (This doesn't seem to be the case, but still no clear cut answer)

Scenario 2) This is an ADDITIONAL solution and when double backs are in they will still have the gold sink, but the DB will still unlock the EA as well.

Scenario 3) This is a REPLACEMENT solution, and regardless of when DB get implemented, Gold will always be the only way to get EA. DB will get other new features added to it.

There is precedent to S1, see gold faucets in tournaments. But my personal preference would be for S2. S3 makes me a bit disappointed, but I've never known CZE to surprise me negatively. Their entire staff has been nothing but helful and patient through every single complaint i've ever had. From (Overly?) generously reimbursing us for bugs and negative experiences, to implementing additional awesome to everything. i have no doubt that they will come up with something as good or better if this is the case, but I will still miss getting EAs through achievements. (I won't buy a single one in the case of S3, my gold is too precious)

No matter what scenario is true, it's premature to form a strong oppinion, and it's no fair, and never appropriate to flame/accuse the staff.

ryuukan
05-22-2015, 12:56 PM
I think this change would be easier to swallow if we had an inkling as to how we will earn gold beyond arena grinding in the future

and yes I'm offensive, its part of being a heel

Zophie
05-22-2015, 01:00 PM
Scenario 1) This is a temporary solution and when double backs are in, the Gold sink will be removed and the DB will be implemented as originally planned (This doesn't seem to be the case, but still no clear cut answer)

Scenario 2) This is an ADDITIONAL solution and when double backs are in they will still have the gold sink, but the DB will still unlock the EA as well.

Scenario 3) This is a REPLACEMENT solution, and regardless of when DB get implemented, Gold will always be the only way to get EA. DB will get other new features added to it.

Hopefully we'll get confirmation on which scenario is the case here. I'd prefer 1, 2 is okay, but 3 makes me sad.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 01:00 PM
I think this change would be easier to swallow if we had an inkling as to how we will earn gold beyond arena grinding in the future

and yes I'm offensive, its part of being a heel

You can be a heel without being a prick to boot. They don't mean the same thing.

vickrpg
05-22-2015, 01:02 PM
Well, no, that doesn't make any sense - why force PvP cards to be used in PvP to get their EA versions, when PvP cards are allowed to be used in PvE? You are locking people into certain play styles. Therefore, if tournaments are fair game, so is PvE, otherwise you are shoehorning PvE players into playing PvP that they don't want to play while PvP players get everything just handed to them - no reason to cross trade there, which only harms the market.

The whole idea was far from ideal, and I am very glad they made it more accessible. I just don't agree with the insane AA costs.

I believed the assumption was that there would be PVP achieves and PVE achieves, and either would unlock EA with double backs.
A system which I believe can still work. But it was never explicitly stated in this way (to my knowledge).

the back would list PVP Achieves, PVE Achieves, Gold Sink Unlock. They could all still be linked, and you could get EA in ANY of these 3 ways. This would be Ideal for me,

Svenn
05-22-2015, 01:02 PM
I think this change would be easier to swallow if we had an inkling as to how we will earn gold beyond arena grinding in the future

and yes I'm offensive, its part of being a heel
Dungeons and Raids? It's a currency you'll earn from all the various PvE playing. I didn't know that was really a question.


The issue is for pvp players not the length of time it takes. As a pvp player I would still have been able to unlock EA cards simply by plaything the game. The other half is that it may take way longer to get the murder achievement then to earn the gold for EA but while you are working on that achievement you are also working on ALL of the other cards in your deck. Now you are just grinding gold for 1 card at a time.
A large part of the design of the game is the interaction between PvE and PvP. Get used to it. You either need to play PvE yourself or be ready to trade with PvE players for some of the things you want. A large part of the design is creating that interaction between PvE and PvP. PvP players need things from PvE players (typically gold) so that f2p PvE players have a way to trade things for stuff from the PvP side.

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 01:03 PM
Hopefully we'll get confirmation on which scenario is the case here. I'd prefer 1, 2 is okay, but 3 makes me sad.

Or possible scenario 4) This is what it is and no new feature gets added to DB

not saying that is my theory, but a possible scenario.

vickrpg
05-22-2015, 01:04 PM
You can be a heel without being a prick to boot. They don't mean the same thing.

2 wrongs don't make a right Xen. Watch the namecalling.

Mahes
05-22-2015, 01:06 PM
So,

Does this mean Gold just became more valuable? Set 1 packs going for 9-10k average?

Quick, sell those packs now....

ryuukan
05-22-2015, 01:06 PM
You can be a heel without being a prick to boot. They don't mean the same thing.

words hurt


Dungeons and Raids? It's a currency you'll earn from all the various PvE playing. I didn't know that was really a question.

"dungeon" and "raid" are still abstract hextcg concepts in constant flux

are they fun to play more than once? something you can do everyday to earn gold without feeling like a chore?

N3rd4Christ
05-22-2015, 01:06 PM
So,

Does this mean Gold just became more valuable? Set 1 packs going for 9-10k average?

1 pack per arena run!

EntropyBall
05-22-2015, 01:08 PM
I do not really like the buying of extended art for gold. From my understanding, in the original plan we would have been able to play PVP or PvE to unlock EA for our cards. But now we only get the choice of either grinding PvE or pulling out our wallets to get EA. I understand the idea behind giving gold high value, but what ever happened to the idea of fun?

Actually playing HEX PvP to unlock these things is part of what appealed to me from the kickstarter, I didn't want to have to spend money on this, nor grind PvE. It was also something I felt added fun and replayability to the game. Now we lose some of our fun and replayability just so gold can be more valuable.

This is how I feel about it, but if doublebacks unlock something like card animations instead, I'm cool with it. It doesn't force me to grind PVE, as I'll just unlock the EAs for cards where I like the art a lot as the gold comes in. But I think I still prefer the concept of making your cards look cooler by leveling them up.

Also, I'd say they shouldn't have told everyone they were taking this out of doublebacks without talking about what new stuff is going in to doublebacks. As it is, we're operating off of really old, really out of date information and a lot of assumptions.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 01:08 PM
For those worried about this EA change... is it because Doublebacks is a really cool idea or is it because you're worried about how long it will take to unlock?

If you're worried about it because Doublebacks sounded awesome before... there's still foils and plenty of other cool things they could do with doubleback unlocks. I wouldn't worry about that.

If you're worried about the time to unlock the EA... I guarantee gold unlocking is far easier than the doublebacks would be. Imagine something like Murder. Achievement would be something like murdering 50 troops with that card. Now, you need to do this for all 4 copies, so that's 200 murders minimum. You're looking at once a game per card AT BEST. Several hundred games for ONE of the three achievements needed. Even if they were something slightly easier to get you have to draw that specific card in any given game. This is going to be a VERY long process, longer than purchasing it with gold.


Ok, lets compare:
Old way of unlocking:
- Could do multiple different things in the game depending on what you like best while unlocking achievements (at least for some of them, like the mentioned murder 50 troops)
- Could unlock for a whole deck at once
- Could get whatever rewards you got from your activity in addition the unlock

New way of unlocking:
- Have to do whatever is most efficient in terms of gold-income instead of doing what you enjoy, or take even longer
- Have to use up your rewards from the activity you maybe didnt even like to do in order to get the unlock
- Cant use your gold on other equally desired things

See the problem?

Needing a long time to unlock the achievement doesnt bother me at all if it just happens naturally while i play the game. Now i actually have to dedicate insane amounts of ingame currency (more than i will ever have) to it instead.

Thoom
05-22-2015, 01:09 PM
I feel like doublebacks unlocking animated cards is pretty unlikely, because that would require them to make an animation for every single card, and that sounds like quite a lot of work.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 01:10 PM
"dungeon" and "raid" are still abstract hextcg concepts in constant flux

are they fun to play more than once? something you can do everyday to earn gold without feeling like a chore?

These have been fairly well defined for a long time. We know how dungeons and raids are going to work. We know that you'll get loot from running them.

As for replayable... we know that too. There are multiple paths through the dungeons, including secret hidden paths. That will help replayability. Beyond that, it's like any other MMO? Dungeons/raids are the same every time, but people run them over and over anyway for the loot, and that's without multiple paths and without the possibility of playing using a completely different skillset (different decks) every time.

Aradon
05-22-2015, 01:13 PM
These have been fairly well defined for a long time. We know how dungeons and raids are going to work. We know that you'll get loot from running them.

As for replayable... we know that too. There are multiple paths through the dungeons, including secret hidden paths. That will help replayability. Beyond that, it's like any other MMO? Dungeons/raids are the same every time, but people run them over and over anyway for the loot, and that's without multiple paths and without the possibility of playing using a completely different skillset (different decks) every time.

To be fair, doublebacks and extended art were perfectly defined for a long time, too. CZE isn't afraid to completely overhaul things. Who knows how replayable dungeons will actually end up being? I agree with Ryuukan that things are still very much undecided.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 01:13 PM
2 wrongs don't make a right Xen. Watch the namecalling.

I was trying to be descriptive not offensive. It is hard to say someone is being a jerk without actually using the word jerk - and I could have used a lot worse language. I toned it down appropriately.

negativeZer0
05-22-2015, 01:14 PM
I feel like doublebacks unlocking animated cards is pretty unlikely, because that would require them to make an animation for every single card, and that sounds like quite a lot of work.

While we may eventually see animated cards there is no way in hell every card will get an animated version. This would be completely impossible to do when you factor in time/cost involved. Thoom is absolutely correct.


Well, no, that doesn't make any sense - why force PvP cards to be used in PvP to get their EA versions, when PvP cards are allowed to be used in PvE? You are locking people into certain play styles. Therefore, if tournaments are fair game, so is PvE, otherwise you are shoehorning PvE players into playing PvP that they don't want to play while PvP players get everything just handed to them - no reason to cross trade there, which only harms the market.

The whole idea was far from ideal, and I am very glad they made it more accessible. I just don't agree with the insane AA costs.

All I was saying is that PvP cards should NOT have an achievement like beat X dungeons this kind of achievement would only ever be on a pve card. Pvp cards should have achievements that can all be accomplished simply by playing a standard game. Only pve cards should have pve specific achievements.

Daer
05-22-2015, 01:15 PM
We need the gold faucet cracked open a little more, especially if the common AAs are being removed form the store soon.

vickrpg
05-22-2015, 01:17 PM
Ok, lets compare:
Old way of unlocking:
- Could do multiple different things in the game depending on what you like best while unlocking achievements (at least for some of them, like the mentioned murder 50 troops)
- Could unlock for a whole deck at once
- Could get whatever rewards you got from your activity in addition the unlock

New way of unlocking:
- Have to do whatever is most efficient in terms of gold-income instead of doing what you enjoy, or take even longer
- Have to use up your rewards from the activity you maybe didnt even like to do in order to get the unlock
- Cant use your gold on other equally desired things

See the problem?

"Old" and "New" are still premature, I believe. But you also forgot about the most important (for me anyway) aspect. under the "old" way it was tied to achievements. Sure, you could buy a card that someone else achieved. And I will grant you that earning gold could be defined as an achievement.

but the direct link between

Achieve specific task per card -> Reward

and the indirect link between

Achieve any PVE completion->Rewarded Gold -> Purchase card

Does not feel the same. It isn't the same, even if it's effectively equivalent. So (given S3 to be the most likely answer) it is effectively like we've lost a piece of reward for gameplay. Even if it is replaced, it feels lost. I can understand the negative feelings, just not the backlash.

I will adjust, just like I did when EXP was replaced with might (Guildmaster backer here, ouch) and if they change their minds again, I will adjust again. I don't understand linking your enjoyment of such a massively ambitious game as hex on a single feature.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 01:19 PM
Yeah, thats the main issue i have with it vick. A reward for playing turned into an absurdly expensive payment feature. That makes me sad.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 01:21 PM
Ok, lets compare:
Old way of unlocking:
- Could do multiple different things in the game depending on what you like best while unlocking achievements (at least for some of them, like the mentioned murder 50 troops)
- Could unlock for a whole deck at once
- Could get whatever rewards you got from your activity in addition the unlock

New way of unlocking:
- Have to do whatever is most efficient in terms of gold-income instead of doing what you enjoy, or take even longer
- Have to use up your rewards from the activity you maybe didnt even like to do in order to get the unlock
- Cant use your gold on other equally desired things

See the problem?
Old way of unlocking:
- Have to use the cards in specific ways over and over to unlock the achievement.
- Highly subjected to RNG and could take a ridiculously long time to unlock.
- Must be using that specific deck to unlock

New way of unlocking:
- Can be unlocked by doing anything in the game that earns gold
- Doesn't require the player to use a specific card/deck to unlock
- Don't have to deal with RNG luck to unlock

See how your "problem" is a heavily biased list that shows only the pros for the side you like and only cons for the side you don't like?

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 01:21 PM
All I was saying is that PvP cards should NOT have an achievement like beat X dungeons this kind of achievement would only ever be on a pve card. Pvp cards should have achievements that can all be accomplished simply by playing a standard game. Only pve cards should have pve specific achievements.

You have only stated your opinion - there is no good reason why PvP cards couldn't have had PvE achievements. PvP cards are globally available for use, unlike PvE cards, so it only makes sense for them to have cross market appeal.

You can spout opinion all you want, but nothing was stopping the devs doing PvE achievements. That is why this method is the better choice by far - everyone has equal opportunity to EA every card, there is no lock-out.

Thoom
05-22-2015, 01:22 PM
I was thinking about the distinction between doing specific achievements and paying gold, but as long as cards are tradable, even if EA is unlocked by achievements you'll still be able to buy an EA card for currency. That means merely owning an EA card won't be that prestigious or special.

I would like there to be special rewards for completing crazy challenges, but I think I'd prefer them in non-card form, so they can be account-bound and actually prestigious.

ryuukan
05-22-2015, 01:24 PM
ok Im over it, I don't even like AA stuff anyway, I just sell them off

when can we open chests

Scammanator
05-22-2015, 01:26 PM
This also somewhat solves a problem I had with achievement-based unlock, where I would have more incentive to include non-EA cards in my decks so that the EA could be unlocked. Which would result in me rarely ever actually playing with EA cards.

Still not willing to give up achievement-based unlocks in general. But I'll wait and see what the plans are for that.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 01:26 PM
Old way of unlocking:
- Have to use the cards in specific ways over and over to unlock the achievement.
- Highly subjected to RNG and could take a ridiculously long time to unlock.
- Must be using that specific deck to unlock

New way of unlocking:
- Can be unlocked by doing anything in the game that earns gold
- Doesn't require the player to use a specific card/deck to unlock
- Don't have to deal with RNG luck to unlock

See how your "problem" is a heavily biased list that shows only the pros for the side you like and only cons for the side you don't like?

If by specific ways you mean their intended ways? Yeah sure.
Ridiculously long time? I bet you farming that over 1 million gold i would need to upgrade one of my favorite decks now takes longer, and i could actually earn something during the upgrades process before.
RNG? Thats like complaining about Screw / Flood. It will even out, not an argument at all.
Specific deck? Sure, but its the one i like after all, instead of playing something i dont like at all just because its the most efficient at farming.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 01:26 PM
Yeah, thats the main issue i have with it vick. A reward for playing turned into an absurdly expensive payment feature. That makes me sad.

Gold is a reward for playing. A reward for playing turned into a reward for playing in a different way, and the original way of playing still exists but with a different reward.

hammer
05-22-2015, 01:28 PM
At current gold rates it is going to cost 12-14$ to unlock each playset of Alternate Art Cards !!!

I like the plan, I like the common, uncommon and rare price points to unlock. Legendary feels a little high but bearable, the AA just seems painful especially since the AA cards already costs multiples of the original art.

Full Art is going to appeal to the type of player who is interested in the extra for AA in the first place - oh the pain

Assassine
05-22-2015, 01:32 PM
Gold is a reward for playing. A reward for playing turned into a reward for playing in a different way, and the original way of playing still exists but with a different reward.

Yeah, no. Before i got a lolly and a bonbon for playing, and now i get a lolly for playing and can pay 20 lollies to get a bonbon.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 01:33 PM
If by specific ways you mean their intended ways? Yeah sure.
Ridiculously long time? I bet you farming that over 1 million gold i would need to upgrade one of my favorite decks now takes longer, and i could actually earn something during the upgrades process before.
RNG? Thats like complaining about Screw / Flood. It will even out, not an argument at all.
I like how you ignored everything I said earlier and just said "achievements would probably be quicker".

Some of those achievements listed initially were insane, and would require hundreds/thousands of games played for a single card. And none of those achievements were guaranteed to just be playing their intended ways. One of the ones shown was to win 10 tournament games. That's a pay wall right there just to EA your card, plus who knows how many hours. You're looking at entry fees for at least 4 tournaments minimum.

And, DOUBLE BACKS STILL EXIST. Foils (as far as we know) are still double back, and whatever other rewards they put in. That whole method didn't go away.

ryuukan
05-22-2015, 01:33 PM
Yeah, no. Before i got a lolly and a bonbon for playing, and now i get a lolly for playing and can pay 20 lollies to get a bonbon.

man I already did the candy analogy in the thread!!!

Svenn
05-22-2015, 01:34 PM
Yeah, no. Before i got a lolly and a bonbon for playing, and now i get a lolly for playing and can pay 20 lollies to get a bonbon.
Before you got a lolly and a bonbon for playing. Now you get a lolly and a bonbon and can pay 20 lollies for a tootsie roll.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 01:34 PM
I dont care about doublebacks, i care about EA instead of coming naturally eventually now beeing behind a near-impossible to climb paywall. But whatever, try invalidating my concerns all you want. You obviously dont understand what im trying to get at or dont care, so theres no need for discussion.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 01:43 PM
I dont care about doublebacks, i care about EA instead of coming naturally eventually now beeing behind a near-impossible to climb paywall. But whatever, try invalidating my concerns all you want. You obviously dont understand what im trying to get at or dont care, so theres no need for discussion.
What you are missing is that they were never guaranteed to come naturally in the first place. The achievements could have been anything. They could have been tied to very specific requirements. And on top of that, there's nothing that says they wouldn't take just as long, if not longer, to get than the gold needed to unlock them.

Cirouss
05-22-2015, 01:44 PM
10:09-10:11 is the best three seconds of the hex:the passion video.

Hahaha :D Gwaer in the spotlight for the 2 seconds ;D

Grimshaw
05-22-2015, 01:44 PM
I like how you ignored everything I said earlier and just said "achievements would probably be quicker".

Some of those achievements listed initially were insane, and would require hundreds/thousands of games played for a single card. And none of those achievements were guaranteed to just be playing their intended ways. One of the ones shown was to win 10 tournament games. That's a pay wall right there just to EA your card, plus who knows how many hours. You're looking at entry fees for at least 4 tournaments minimum.

Right, and those tournaments would not be limited tournaments either. Where were people planning to get all these PVP achievements, when we're rarely firing constructed tournaments outside of the VIP weekends?

Did we really want to be grinding out games in the Proving Grounds, or worse, trying to achievement trade with friends?

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 01:45 PM
Hahaha :D Gwaer in the spotlight for the 2 seconds ;D

Do I have to find the second I'm on camera? ;)

Aradon
05-22-2015, 01:45 PM
Bound to be more interesting than paying out some gold. Each card could have been a mini quest or adventure unto itself. Supposedly we're still getting that when the doublebacks are released, but that feature sounds further out than ever before :\

Mokog
05-22-2015, 01:46 PM
I am glad everyone cares about Extended Art. I am glad everyone is concerned about the effort it takes to unlock them. That means every EA has value personally and on the AH. Some of us like lemonade even if we can't afford the Mercedes yet.

vickrpg
05-22-2015, 01:46 PM
There is very little (I see you rational people) discussion happening on either side of this "issue".

All I see is people belittling each other, making accusations and trying to negate each others' opinions instead of discussing their merits and flaws, or being constructive in any way.
"It's like this"
"No, it's not like this it's like that"

We're supposed to be one of the best communities on the net. Let's get back to being that.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 01:46 PM
What you are missing is that they were never guaranteed to come naturally in the first place. The achievements could have been anything. They could have been tied to very specific requirements. And on top of that, there's nothing that says they wouldn't take just as long, if not longer, to get than the gold needed to unlock them.

And even if they would take longer, at least i would still have the rewards from whatever i was doing. They didnt have to be the main goal. Now they do.

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 01:48 PM
If set 1 cost 6.26 million gold to get all EA, at an 83:1 ratio (latest ratio from hexprice) it would cost over $750 to get EA on them. Since I am not a PvE grinder, I can choose to either pay this price in cards or straight plat.

So (for the PvP player) it has essentially changed from the original plan of "have fun playing HEX to unlock EA", where I could just play decks and unlock it all for free while I have fun- to this, $750 for set 1 EA....

hex_colin
05-22-2015, 01:49 PM
WTB 6.26 million Gold for $750. Just COD it to me! :)

Assassine
05-22-2015, 01:50 PM
If set 1 cost 6.26 million gold to get all EA, at an 83:1 ratio (latest ratio from hexprice) it would cost over $750 to get EA on them. Since I am not a PvE grinder, I can choose to either pay this price in cards or straight plat.

So (for the PvP player) it has essentially changed from the original plan of "have fun playing HEX to unlock EA", where I could just play decks and unlock it all for free while I have fun- to this, $750 for set 1 EA....

Kind of what im trying to get at. Maybe im just bad at explaining myself.

superdax
05-22-2015, 01:51 PM
Colin are you trying to make a 74,250$ profit here :)

Svenn
05-22-2015, 01:51 PM
And even if they would take longer, at least i would still have the rewards from whatever i was doing. They didnt have to be the main goal. Now they do.
This doesn't even make sense. You can do anything in the game you want that earns gold, and they don't have to be the main goal. You can play through all the dungeons when they come out just for fun and then be like "Oh hey, I have this extra 30k gold, I think I'll EA some of my cards". They don't have to be any kind of main goal at all.

Scammanator
05-22-2015, 01:56 PM
Let's see... being extremely generous with my estimates...

Assuming three Shattered Destiny sized sets released every year, and assuming a gold grind rate of 10,000 per hour...

You could maintain an EA playset with ~145 minutes of PvE gameplay every day, in addition to any costs of getting the playset itself.

That is very, very steep. But it is possible.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 01:59 PM
If set 1 cost 6.26 million gold to get all EA, at an 83:1 ratio (latest ratio from hexprice) it would cost over $750 to get EA on them. Since I am not a PvE grinder, I can choose to either pay this price in cards or straight plat.

So (for the PvP player) it has essentially changed from the original plan of "have fun playing HEX to unlock EA", where I could just play decks and unlock it all for free while I have fun- to this, $750 for set 1 EA....
If you are a 100% PvP only player, then yeah I can see this hurting a little. I honestly don't think it's a big deal though.

On the flip side, with double backs you would have had to put together decks with some of those really crappy cards like Determined Zombie and used them over and over to earn the EA if you're going for a full EA playset. Now you don't have to.

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 02:06 PM
On the flip side, with double backs you would have had to put together decks with some of those really crappy cards like Determined Zombie and used them over and over to earn the EA if you're going for a full EA playset. Now you don't have to.

For me, and some others, we looked at this as an incentive for creative deck design. A reason to play the little played cards, and motivations for entirely different strategies we would not normally play. This is part of what I mean by "losing replayability", as playing all those cards gives me that replayability. It was something I was looking forward to.

Zophie
05-22-2015, 02:13 PM
On the flip side, with double backs you would have had to put together decks with some of those really crappy cards like Determined Zombie and used them over and over to earn the EA if you're going for a full EA playset. Now you don't have to.

You say this like it's a bad thing. Not everyone sees it that way. I think tying additional cosmetic enhancements to a gold sink is a missed opportunity at providing not only additional replayability but also allowing players to put additional value on these enhancements. If you see someone using Determined Zombie EA, you know they put in the effort to do so. If very few people want to put in the effort to unlock its EA because it's a "crappy card" as you say, then this will reduce the amount available for sale/trade and increase the value of these unlocked versions to collectors, in some cases by more than just the standard gold sink amount.

This isn't an issue of how long it takes or how difficult it is to unlock them, it's an issue of changing the core concept of what it means to have EA unlocked on a card. With the proposed system, if I see someone playing with an EA then all it means is someone either grinded a bunch of gold doing whatever, or they bought it for a market price of the value of the card + gold sink value. In the doubleback system, if we see someone playing with an EA then there's more meaning to that, someone had to play with that card in a specific way to unlock it, creating a personal attachment to it by the effort they put into it, and the value of the unlocked card would then reflect that personal effort. I realize there will be other enhancements offered through doubleback features such as this as well, but if the EA gold sink here remains after they are implemented then I think it will take a bit of that personal attachment and added value opportunity away nonetheless.

Mahes
05-22-2015, 02:13 PM
Honestly,

It has no effect on a player's ability to play the game. That is the genius of the idea. Nobody actually has to have EA or AA versions of a card to play in tournaments or to build the best PvE deck you can. In the end that is why I really am not bothered by this. What it does do is give a brand new player a better chance to play PvP because of the gold/Plat ratio. I do care about that because it means more players are playing, which improves the overall health of the game.

NaryaDL0re
05-22-2015, 02:14 PM
The main question is the general economy in hex.
How many other gold sinks will there be in pve and on the visual side.
And how much gold can you actually make long term with all the pve?

Currently hex is trying to figure many of these things out, and the current
prices will present an option which is more research than it is final I guess.

I guess the best thing would be to just not upgrade any AAs to EA given the current price.

on the other hand I am a spoiled instant gratification brat, so I might not have the strength to do the right thing ~.~


how expensive this really is will be a matter of context, but currently its absurd.
(Hex implies to cost half as much as magic (booster price), yet an AA EA totem/cmk
already costs more than any standard legal card did, including JaceTMS)

and we are far away from release, 20 times as many players, much bigger demand etc etc...

If the playerbase explodes AA EA CMK would go from 100 up to 300+ easily.
Thats straight up dump for a "cheaper" tcg in its "first year of release".

It certainly is a pretty high level to start on, given that Hex is in its infancy in terms
of rarity / collectors / chase items etc.

EDIT : I m aware how polarized the numbers and arguments in this post are.

Also, its definitely lucrative right now, and given how much money cryptozoic still
needs to "finish" this entire project I m all for anything that makes them enough money.

Cirouss
05-22-2015, 02:18 PM
Do I have to find the second I'm on camera? ;)

I definately KNOW you are on there! I can't tell you the time or the duration but I know you are in ;D

+ Your Name is listed in the credits for roughly 10 seconds! =D

EntropyBall
05-22-2015, 02:18 PM
For me, and some others, we looked at this as an incentive for creative deck design. A reason to play the little played cards, and motivations for entirely different strategies we would not normally play. This is part of what I mean by "losing replayability", as playing all those cards gives me that replayability. It was something I was looking forward to.

Yeah.... I can't say that I'm going to be sad that I'm not rolling my Determined Zombie deck anymore. On the other hand, I'm also not paying gold to unlock the full art for that card anyway.

I'm more interested/concerned about how this affects chests. We have been mindlessly plowing gold into the Wheels of Fate with no knowledge of chest contents. With gold already very valuable, and probably set to become more so, is it really going to be worthwhile to plow 30k gold into a legendary chest?

Thoom
05-22-2015, 02:23 PM
I'm more interested/concerned about how this affects chests. We have been mindlessly plowing gold into the Wheels of Fate with no knowledge of chest contents. With gold already very valuable, and probably set to become more so, is it really going to be worthwhile to plow 30k gold into a legendary chest?

I believe it's been said that there will be some unique rewards that can only be found inside Primal chests. So if those are awesome, then their prices will reflect the amount of investment needed to roll a Legendary up to Primal (assuming it isn't strictly better to roll Rares and hope for the double upgrade).

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 02:25 PM
Game just got even better for the Casual F2P grinder. Farm.
If you don't like the sink, sell your gold.
The world of HEX just became a simple transaction.
Gold will be bought, and my time grinding is more worthwhile.

When I am good enough to be considered a decent PvP Competitive player, I may unlock the EAs that I am playing, but I may never see that day. Average at best, but can fuel the habit with more grinding of free content.

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 02:26 PM
Honestly,

It has no effect on a player's ability to play the game. That is the genius of the idea. Nobody actually has to have EA or AA versions of a card to play in tournaments or to build the best PvE deck you can. In the end that is why I really am not bothered by this. What it does do is give a brand new player a better chance to play PvP because of the gold/Plat ratio. I do care about that because it means more players are playing, which improves the overall health of the game.

The thing is, there are a multitude of things they could implement as gold sinks instead of this. Gold value could have been increased without degrading the fun/replayability for PvP players.

Zophie
05-22-2015, 02:29 PM
The thing is, there are a multitude of things they could implement as gold sinks instead of this. Gold value could have been increased without degrading the fun/replayability for PvP players.

Agreed, and it doesn't just affect PVP players. PVE players could be unlocking EAs as part of their gameplay while also farming gold, thus increasing the value of cards that they can then turn around and sell to PVP players/collectors who don't have the time to unlock them.

madar
05-22-2015, 02:32 PM
I don't have problem with this EA prices. If this game will be less buggy and having more features, tons of players will come and farm gold, but only a minor percent of them will care with the EA. Now the game have to hardcore players only, but this will not be like this, hopefully.
Look to the Hearthstone - having 20 or 30 million players, but only a few of them cares with the golden cards, as is only cosmetic change... So yea, this is goldsink, but the majority of the ppl will buy cards for gold in the AH, the PVP players will able to sell their plus cards from the draft packs for gold, fast, and unlocking the EA on their playset.

I think it's fine.

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 02:41 PM
Agreed, and it doesn't just affect PVP players. PVE players could be unlocking EAs as part of their gameplay while also farming gold, thus increasing the value of cards that they can then turn around and sell to PVP players/collectors who don't have the time to unlock them.

Yeah, I just didn't mention PvE players because either way they still get EA cards via direct gameplay, where the PvP player can not. But you're right, it would add another variable to their time estimated value equation.

Counter
05-22-2015, 02:45 PM
Regarding the double back thing. If it's gonna cause any delays or require a lot of work hours to get it to work, just forget about it. It doesn't really add anything to the actual gameplay. Sure you can keep stats etc on particular cards and what not, but I'd much rather have new content. I understand it's an idea and something that can be done digitally, but I hope it's not eating up work hours.

PentaChills
05-22-2015, 02:52 PM
Yeah, the design intent is that folks unlock their favorite cards, maybe a couple of their competitive decks. The few, the proud, the absolutely f&^%ing insane will unlock a playset of every card... ;)

Whelp. There went the last of my sanity.

N3rd4Christ
05-22-2015, 02:53 PM
Whelp. There went the last of my sanity.



OCD, OCD Everywhere. I've never been on meds. This might just do it.

Thoom
05-22-2015, 02:55 PM
Whelp. There went the last of my sanity.

How galling is it that your massive hoard of gold doesn't even unlock all a playset of the existing cards? That's got to be painful. :(

Banquetto
05-22-2015, 02:56 PM
For those worried about this EA change... is it because Doublebacks is a really cool idea or is it because you're worried about how long it will take to unlock?

If you're worried about it because Doublebacks sounded awesome before... there's still foils and plenty of other cool things they could do with doubleback unlocks. I wouldn't worry about that.

If you're worried about the time to unlock the EA... I guarantee gold unlocking is far easier than the doublebacks would be.

I'm worried because it's really starting to smell like doublebacks are quietly being pushed into the "too hard" basket. It's been two years since the Kickstarter with absolutely zero sign of any progress on this feature. Now, the very first feature mentioned on https://www.hextcg.com/double-back/ has been shuffled off into another gold sink.

I'd like to believe that we'll one day see something which vaguely resembles what it described on that page. But I don't have a lot of confidence.

Svenn
05-22-2015, 02:58 PM
I'm worried because it's really starting to smell like doublebacks are quietly being pushed into the "too hard" basket. It's been two years since the Kickstarter with absolutely zero sign of any progress on this feature. Now, the very first feature mentioned on https://www.hextcg.com/double-back/ has been shuffled off into another gold sink.

I'd like to believe that we'll one day see something which vaguely resembles what it described on that page. But I don't have a lot of confidence.
In this very thread...

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=43239&p=487111&viewfull=1#post487111


No feature has been cancelled and I don't appreciate the hyperbolic comment, double back is still coming and will offer unlocks, we have moved EA but that doesn't mean double back will not be as much if not MORE exciting than originally promised, the number of things we can do with a digital card is almost limitless...

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 02:58 PM
If things become unbearable, and gold to plat ratios too high in the favor of gold, Chark can just tweak the gold drop rates and Uruu encounter rates, in favor of the playerbase.
It sucks for those of us that have already bleed ourselves dry in the arena, but its the right step moving forward if gold continues to be such a sought after commodity, and is trading too favorably for F2P grinders.

You don't want those truly interested in spending money, and unlocking content, to burn out.

Banquetto
05-22-2015, 03:02 PM
In this very thread...

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=43239&p=487111&viewfull=1#post487111

Yes, and as I said, I'd like to believe that doubleback is still coming and will be awesome, but I don't have a lot of confidence that what we get will arrive any time soon, or will bear a lot of resemblance to what was described on https://www.hextcg.com/double-back/

Gwaer
05-22-2015, 03:10 PM
I'm totally fine with gold to unlock the EA. All I'm concerned about is the cost of the AA'S. It's very high. Perhaps for the foreseeable future. I mean gold to skip achievements is a very well accepted f2p trope. Skipping the achievements and just unlocking them with gold is perfectly okay to me as long as double backs are still important. BUT gold can only be worth so much before bad things happen. We'll see how it goes. Hopefully they'll revisit it later.

hammer
05-22-2015, 03:19 PM
I'm totally fine with gold to unlock the EA. All I'm concerned about is the cost of the AA'S. It's very high. Perhaps for the foreseeable future. I mean gold to skip achievements is a very well accepted f2p trope. Skipping the achievements and just unlocking them with gold is perfectly okay to me as long as double backs are still important. BUT gold can only be worth so much before bad things happen. We'll see how it goes. Hopefully they'll revisit it later.
This in bold so much :D change the AA unlock price to 10k-12k and I am happy.

Xenavire
05-22-2015, 03:27 PM
This in bold so much :D change the AA unlock price to 10k-12k and I am happy.

I could live with anything 15k or below. But over double? Even 50% markup is a little crazy, 150% markup is a little sadistic in my eyes. I am sure the devs know which kind of players will go for the AA/EA combo, and they certainly aren't just 'whales'. In fact, it seems like whales would only care if they were also completionists...

TOOT
05-22-2015, 03:50 PM
To the people worried about losing the replay-ability of the game cause you can now buy the EA instead of earning it through double backs.

I imagine this change is because they can use the same option we were expecting for foil/animated cards instead of EA. It seems from my perspective as a 2nd enhancement option instead of removing the initial feature.

Say each card has 3 things available to unlock, EA, animated, foil.

1. Pay Gold to unlock the EA version.

2. Play the card in game to earn the achievements to unlock the animated or foil version.

3. Some sort of crafting or half complete version of #2 to get the stuff in addition to EA.

In this scenario, nothing is really removed, it will still give the option to grind the card in gameplay to enhance it. If this is what is planned, than it seems all the arguments are moot, and it is just an additional option to further make cards more unique.

RanaDunes
05-22-2015, 03:52 PM
I'm also worried that double-back would be compromise. Double-back idea was one of my favorite features of Hex from the Kickstarter. Does this mean we're no longer going to be able to reveal full art using Double-Back? I honestly liked the idea of the card leveling up which opens up certain things like full-art version. This is a bummer.

Gwaer
05-22-2015, 03:59 PM
I'm very confident the double backs will be awesome. They've not yet disappointed in all features being over the top. I expect that to stay true.

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 04:08 PM
I'm very confident the double backs will be awesome. They've not yet disappointed in all features being over the top. I expect that to stay true.

I'm in agreement, I also have confidence that double backs will be awesome. That being said, them being awesome does not make this change with EA any less bad IMO.

Vorsa
05-22-2015, 04:19 PM
So: "Five two-shard combinations can be found in this set"

Diamond/Ruby (Army of Myth)
Wild/Ruby (Periwinkle)
Wild/Sapphire (Windsinger)

You'd have to hope for Blood/Sapphire for a unique Vennen, which conveniently leaves Blood/Diamond to level out the shards - the classic Necrotic combo.

That means set 4 has:

Blood/Ruby = Orc
Blood/Wild = Shin'hare
Diamond/Sapphire = Human
Diamond/Wild = Non-troop card?
Ruby/Sapphire = Dwarf

Well, that worked out very neatly - hadn't thought it through till I typed it! :o

Metronomy
05-22-2015, 04:19 PM
sky is falling...i predict gold ratio going to 50:1 (or even lower) and staying there till there is a new way to get gold (which should have very high priority now)

it just creates the feeling i missed out on something...i started buying gold quite late and even discontinued to do so the last few days...im feeling quite remoresful now

sidenote: chest contents realy must be good in order i dont regret spinning all those rare chests...as of now i regret it heavily
suggestion: make chests include gold...i know its counter-intuitive to have chest rolling for gold and then have chests contain gold but it you dont do something to get gold with set 3 release its gonna be crazy

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 04:23 PM
On another note, I have a question about the spoiled card Lanupaw. If the next resource in your deck gets "gain two charges", say it hits a dual shard. The dual shard already says "gain a charge". So after this it will say "gain a charge" and "gain two charges", so we gain three charges total? Is this the correct interpretation?

Rycajo
05-22-2015, 04:28 PM
On another note, I have a question about the spoiled card Lanupaw. If the next resource in your deck gets "gain two charges", say it hits a dual shard. The dual shard already says "gain a charge". So after this it will say "gain a charge" and "gain two charges", so we gain three charges total? Is this the correct interpretation?

That is my understanding. 3 charges total if shard already gave a charge.

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 04:34 PM
That is my understanding. 3 charges total if shard already gave a charge.

Makes me contemplate if I could fit one or two crackling vortex into a tri-shard deck without completely screwing myself...

Assassine
05-22-2015, 04:36 PM
If your next resource was a crackling vortex, and you had 4 shrines of prosperity out, it would give you 8 charges. Enough for instant polonius :D

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 04:40 PM
If your next resource was a crackling vortex, and you had 4 shrines of prosperity out, it would give you 8 charges. Enough for instant polonius :D

and then if you had a storm cloud maybe...

Tinfoil
05-22-2015, 04:43 PM
If your next resource was a crackling vortex, and you had 4 shrines of prosperity out, it would give you 8 charges. Enough for instant polonius :D

A new meta emerges! ;)

Legendary and for the most part unique coyotle really seem to pile up...

Chark
05-22-2015, 04:55 PM
Hi everyone,

I want to begin by saying that we take all of player concerns seriously and would like to give everyone a slightly more extended preview of this feature:

The article, for the sake of brevity explained that EAs can be unlocked by paying gold. While this is technically true, one of the steps we failed to show to players is the item(s) required to unlock the EA: star dust.

http://www.hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Extended_Art_02.jpg (http://www.hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Extended_Art_02.jpg)

Players will be able to purchase star dust from us directly for gold, but that's not the only way for people to acquire star dust. For example star dust can drop from Arena and in the future, other PvE activities. I hope this piece of information will at least alleviate some concerns that the "cost" to unlock EAs is too high.

http://www.hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Extended_Art_01.jpg (http://www.hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Extended_Art_01.jpg)


I would also like to try to address some of the recurring concerns in this thread and try to answer some questions:

1. Why did you take away the double back feature for this?

We didn't. We still plan to release the double back feature. There are other things we can do to a card as a reward for playing with it.

2. You are robbing me of value! In the world where EA unlocks were attached to achievements, I could grind gold AND unlock EAs. Now I can just grind gold.

It's important to understand that both acquisition of gold and acquisition of achievements is a function of time. We control the rate at which you acquire gold via rewards and we control how quickly you can hit achievements (burn 100 troops vs. burn 1000 troops for example). We can easily increase the rate of gold acquisition to accomodate for the fact that now you don't get the incidental benefit of unlocking achievements.

3. Will you be able to earn EAs through double backs when the double back feature comes out?

No. This is a permanent change. EAs can be unlocked with star dust. Star dust can be purchased for gold, or received as loot in the game. Double back feature will unlock other aesthetics on the cards.

4. Do EAs have to always be displayed as such?

We are currently working on this feature, so things may be subject to change. However, the current plan is to allow players to control what they want to display.

In addition, we would never sacrifice the functionality of the game for new players in exchange for a chase feature. In other words, we will to the best of our abilities try to ensure that this feature doesn't create a negative play experience for a new player, or somehow grants someone an advantage in a tournament.

5. Does this mean that we finally get Dragon's blood starters?

No, we are still working on the foil feature in the game. Until then, we are not going to release the Dragon blood starter.

6. I am upset that EAs when from "something you can unlock by playing" to "something you can unlock by paying out a ton of gold"

It's important to remember that "something you can unlock by playing" still applies for this. You get gold and star dust drops by playing the game. You just now have more utility in what cards you want to upgrade. And incidentally gold over all is a more valuable commodity for players.

7. Are you worried that this will push the price of gold too far.

We tend to keep an eye on this stuff fairly closely. Since this feature is optional, we believe that market forces will self correct here. If people think the utility of gold is not enough to justify the current exchange rate, that rate tends to adjust. As the rate adjusts it becomes attractive for some people to spend gold because it's easier to acquire and so on.

Assassine
05-22-2015, 05:01 PM
I cant thank you enough for this chark. This alleviates so many of my concerns. Thank you!

Kami
05-22-2015, 05:03 PM
Players will be able to purchase star dust from us directly for gold, but that's not the only way for people to acquire star dust. For example star dust can drop from Arena and in the future, other PvE activities. I hope this piece of information will at least alleviate some concerns that the "cost" to unlock EAs is too high.

Can I hug you? This deserves a hug. Group hug time? Group hug time. :stormcloud:

Assassine
05-22-2015, 05:04 PM
Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugs! http://i.imgur.com/o91CqT3.png

AdamAoE2
05-22-2015, 05:07 PM
I really like the Stardust idea. More loot to get in treasure chests/dungeons/raids. :) Is stardust going to be used exclusively for the extended AAs or will it have other uses? (Like Crafting)

EDIT: Also, will you be able to buy Stardust on the Auction House?

Svenn
05-22-2015, 05:08 PM
Chark for President!

Seriously, this sounds awesome. I was on board but a little hesitant... but now I'm fully on board.

I am definitely curious how you are going to still convey all the important information from a card while the EA is up though. I hope there's a quick way to see the text (mouseover tooltips?).

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 05:11 PM
Thanks Chark, seriously helped me fight off a migraine that was coming on with that information.

Thoom
05-22-2015, 05:11 PM
<3 Chark

Will stardust be trade-able/mail-able/AH-able?

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 05:11 PM
<3 Chark

Will stardust be trade-able/mail-able/AH-able?
Oh... good question...

Metronomy
05-22-2015, 05:16 PM
Hi everyone,

7. Are you worried that this will push the price of gold too far.

We tend to keep an eye on this stuff fairly closely. Since this feature is optional, we believe that market forces will self correct here. If people think the utility of gold is not enough to justify the current exchange rate, that rate tends to adjust. As the rate adjusts it becomes attractive for some people to spend gold because it's easier to acquire and so on.

well..I agree its self-correcting.
It just leaves a very bitter taste for me personaly..I feel stupid and even a bit cheated cause i didnt buy gold earlier and more and rolled on chests. Ratio will go to 50:1 or lower and stay there till there is another way to get gold. The only real problem i have with this that i feel like i missed out on not buying gold more. The other thing is that it kinda forces me to grind arena. Arena shouldnt make more profits than a typical draft with a win ratio around 60%. With my win ratio being around 60% I probably still make profits more efficiently by grinding arena as long as the ratio is around 50:1. You cant possibly think that this is fine.

Suggestion: Make chests contain gold and or stardust (this alone would probably solve the whole issue).
or
alternatively: make stardust the currency you get by salvaging extra cards...this would also take the thunder out of the gold implications

P.S. a timely response to those open questions would be great...market for gold is going crazy right now

yoyogod
05-22-2015, 05:20 PM
6. I am upset that EAs when from "something you can unlock by playing" to "something you can unlock by paying out a ton of gold"

It's important to remember that "something you can unlock by playing" still applies for this. You get gold and star dust drops by playing the game. You just now have more utility in what cards you want to upgrade. And incidentally gold over all is a more valuable commodity for players.

That alleviates my concerns. Hooray for Chark!

Lafoote
05-22-2015, 05:21 PM
It seems like they really want to make rolling chests a punishment.

Yoss
05-22-2015, 05:22 PM
Orange posts like the one from Chark are great. Thanks for the extra detail. :)



I was thinking about the distinction between doing specific achievements and paying gold, but as long as cards are tradable, even if EA is unlocked by achievements you'll still be able to buy an EA card for currency. That means merely owning an EA card won't be that prestigious or special.
I'm glad someone finally said this after 14 pages. The EA cards were always going to be trade-able, so it was always going to be of limited presitge for those who think such things must be earned, not bought.



This also somewhat solves a problem I had with achievement-based unlock, where I would have more incentive to include non-EA cards in my decks so that the EA could be unlocked. Which would result in me rarely ever actually playing with EA cards.
Yes, and it's a problem that will still exist once we get double-backs: do I play my sweet card that can't gain any more sweetness, or start over on a new card?



For me, and some others, we looked at this as an incentive for creative deck design. A reason to play the little played cards, and motivations for entirely different strategies we would not normally play. This is part of what I mean by "losing replayability", as playing all those cards gives me that replayability. It was something I was looking forward to.
It sounds like the Hex team still has this goal in mind, so my hope remains for now. :)

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 05:22 PM
Thanks Chark, that alleviated a lot of concerns for sure. But my main concern is still that the PvP player still has no route to get EA without playing in a manner that is not fun to them (PvE). Unless stardust will be a chest drop, and in that case I would be more than happy.

Yoss
05-22-2015, 05:24 PM
Thanks Chark, that alleviated a lot of concerns for sure. But my main concern is still that the PvP player still has no route to get EA without playing in a manner that is not fun to them (PvE). Unless stardust will be a chest drop, and in that case I would be more than happy.
But chests require gold to spin, and one should always spin before open (or I guess trade the virgin chest to a used one plus profit). This doesn't bother you?

meowstef
05-22-2015, 05:26 PM
ok thank you for those clarifications Chark does sooth some of my concerns

Cory_Jones
05-22-2015, 05:28 PM
Can we have a 24 page conversation about the AWESOME Multi-Shard card boarder and HEX: the Passion video now? :)

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 05:29 PM
But chests require gold to spin, and one should always spin before open (or I guess trade the virgin chest to a used one plus profit). This doesn't bother you?
The annoyance of trade for PvP goals I think is where the concern lies. Unfortunately that is the devil in the game design and dual currencies that we all have to live with.


Can we have a 24 page conversation about the AWESOME Multi-Shard card boarder and HEX: the Passion video now? :)
Sorry, we always focus on the 'negative' - It was a great video, and I do love both the art and style of the multi-shard cards, not to mention how friggin awesome they are as cards!

israel.kendall
05-22-2015, 05:30 PM
But chests require gold to spin, and one should always spin before open (or I guess trade the virgin chest to a used one plus profit). This doesn't bother you?

I had not thought about that angle, but I would most likely spin the chest regardless of the stardust being inside so I do not consider it an extra cost really. But after I think on it more my opinion could change, but this is my first thought.

Yoss
05-22-2015, 05:32 PM
Can we have a 24 page conversation about the AWESOME Multi-Shard card boarder and HEX: the Passion video now? :)

But talking about what's good in the world doesn't "sell papers". Just look at the news. :(

However, I agree that the borders look great and the video was also very nice. :)

I'm loving that 6-drop w/s coyotle as a card for Highlander once it's implemented.

Thoom
05-22-2015, 05:32 PM
Can we have a 24 page conversation about the AWESOME Multi-Shard card boarder and HEX: the Passion video now? :)

The multi-shard border is super sweet. I never really noticed it on the Triumvirate since you don't see it too often, but I'm jazzed to start seeing it more.

dogmod
05-22-2015, 05:33 PM
The current problem with the gold grind is that functionally when you are grinding Arena you are really only grinding gold for the vast majority of players.

Sure there is equipment and cards but most of the people at this point have all of the ones they want.

In the long run when we are grinding PvE we will be doing multiple things: unlocking double backs, gaining levels, gaining cards, gaining gold, pursuing achievements, interacting in raids. What fun!

Currently adding more gold sinks without any more (revealed) gold faucets makes the drudgery of the Arena grind that much worse because the fact that you are grinding only one thing while running the same dungeon over and over is worsened when all of the sudden you need that much more of that one thing. 1.2 million gold / 7k per arena run (estimate) = 171 arena runs to get a full set of unlocked AA commons. This makes what is a fun PvE experience into work. I know they are trying to make a healthy gold economy for the F2P players but it is extremely off putting for the current player base imo. Birds in hand and birds in the bush. Etc.

Yoss
05-22-2015, 05:35 PM
Sure there is equipment and cards but most of the people at this point have all of the ones they want.
Can I haz your extras? I am a long way from done gathering. Also, Xocoy was over 200p last I looked, so Arena is obviously not over farmed yet.

nicosharp
05-22-2015, 05:38 PM
Can I haz your extras? I am a long way from done gathering. Also, Xocoy was over 200p last I looked, so Arena is obviously not over farmed yet.

Hmm, I wonder why that is? Let me go post another deck....

PentaChills
05-22-2015, 05:46 PM
Yeah, the design intent is that folks unlock their favorite cards, maybe a couple of their competitive decks. The few, the proud, the absolutely f&^%ing insane will unlock a playset of every card... ;)

Whelp. There went the last of my sanity.

bootlace
05-22-2015, 05:49 PM
Chark, I'm cool with most of what you guys are doing and appreciate you guys have the confidence to stick to your guns concerning this issue and not buckle under the immediate knee jerk reaction players are having. I think one area that has not been addressed is you placing a fixed value to these EA cards. This removes all speculative value from the cards and I think that's a problem.

For example AAs get released and it is the market that decides how valuable they will be, and that's very cool and interesting. However for these EAs, theres pretty much a fixed tax fee added on top of the regular cards and that's extremely boring.

Why don't you just make these only upgradeable through stardust and not allow players to buy stardust. Then players can play Arena or PvE to farm stardusts (in the same way in the current implementation they have to farm gold) and have it drop from chests/WoF etc instead of being a fixed and boring gold cost. You can even create something called a 'minor stardust' or something like that which drops much more often which can be upgraded to 'stardust' with gold if you want to make gold a main part of these upgrades.

Stardust price will not be as fixed as the gold price and it will be much harder to calculate what an EA card is worth. You can obviously play with the different stardust rarity drop rates and again make the different EA upgrade prices more mysterious and subtle.

The more ambigious prices are for EAs, the more special they will feel. As it is, it really feels like an EA is original card + gold upgrade fee which takes all mystery and novelty from a card being an EA.

Chark
05-22-2015, 05:49 PM
I really like the Stardust idea. More loot to get in treasure chests/dungeons/raids. :) Is stardust going to be used exclusively for the extended AAs or will it have other uses? (Like Crafting)

EDIT: Also, will you be able to buy Stardust on the Auction House?

Star dust is for EAs only for now.

We are currently planning to allow it to be mailable/AHable, but again, some features may or may not make it for Set 3 release.

PentaChills
05-22-2015, 05:50 PM
Can we have a 24 page conversation about the AWESOME Multi-Shard card boarder and HEX: the Passion video now? :)

On a very real note, yeah.
I think the 'new' border is crazy awesome! I won't lie, I was kinda hoping that artistically there would be a psuedo-fusion betwixt the shard threshholds on the card. (Sapphire/Wild twisting together for some Coyotles)


I think Cirouss did an incredibly good job with that video! I hope a year from now we have something else similar. What was your favourite part, Cory?

Gwaer
05-22-2015, 05:51 PM
The only thing I disagree with about charks post is the idea that this is an optional feature. The full art of the cards is amazing. That card interface really by rights should be the default of all cards. It just wasn't available in the original client. Unlocking foils or other special add-ons should be this hard. But the extended arts should be the lowest hanging of all possible fruit because they are just such a huge quality of life improvement for the overall game.

Otherwise the star dust idea is great. As long as the promo version isn't as rare as it seems like it will have to be for the cost.

dogmod
05-22-2015, 05:52 PM
Can I haz your extras? I am a long way from done gathering. Also, Xocoy was over 200p last I looked, so Arena is obviously not over farmed yet.

I would say that if you wanted it and don't have it yet then perhaps you do not want it that much. Arena is "underfarmed" on a global level and overfarmed on a personal level for many of the players. And when I say overfarmed I mean farmed to the point of not being fun anymore.

200 p for a Xocoy is not that much gold.

Lafoote
05-22-2015, 05:53 PM
Can we have a 24 page conversation about the AWESOME Multi-Shard card boarder and HEX: the Passion video now? :)

I did notice the cool galactic border. I'm waiting for my brother to call me so we can have a 24 minute conversation about it!

Chark
05-22-2015, 05:56 PM
Thanks Chark, that alleviated a lot of concerns for sure. But my main concern is still that the PvP player still has no route to get EA without playing in a manner that is not fun to them (PvE). Unless stardust will be a chest drop, and in that case I would be more than happy.

I don't know what to tell you. You're operating with some weird assumptions here. I would like to challenge them:

One: assumption that a PvP player doesn't play PvE. Our data suggests otherwise and intuitively that makes sense: why would people lock themselves out of game content?

Two: Let's assume that there's some world where a player is only interested in playing in tournaments to win more packs and go infinite (PvP player for whom PvE is not fun). This player doesn't care about anything else that the game has to offer. Why would they care about getting their cards EAed? Or why would they even bat an eye at a price tag for these cards in the AH? After all, this player just wants to play in tournaments and is infinite on in-game resources (packs/plat etc.)

Chark
05-22-2015, 06:06 PM
Why don't you just make these only upgradeable through stardust and not allow players to buy stardust. Then players can play Arena or PvE to farm stardusts (in the same way in the current implementation they have to farm gold) and have it drop from chests/WoF etc instead of being a fixed and boring gold cost. You can even create something called a 'minor stardust' or something like that which drops much more often which can be upgraded to 'stardust' with gold if you want to make gold a main part of these upgrades.

Stardust price will not be as fixed as the gold price and it will be much harder to calculate what an EA card is worth. You can obviously play with the different stardust rarity drop rates and again make the different EA upgrade prices more mysterious and subtle.


The price won't be fixed as long as star dust drops from PvE activities. We just put a ceiling on the price by allowing you to buy it from the "house" We fully expect that people will undercut our rates at the auction house and that's great! We just wanted to offer a frictionless option for those who want to spend a bunch of gold to quickly gain access to EAs that they want.

bootlace
05-22-2015, 06:12 PM
The price won't be fixed as long as star dust drops from PvE activities. We just put a ceiling on the price by allowing you to buy it from the "house" We fully expect that people will undercut our rates at the auction house and that's great! We just wanted to offer a frictionless option for those who want to spend a bunch of gold to quickly gain access to EAs that they want.

I think a dynamic market where the players create the supply and prices is vastly more interesting, especially in an MMO, but maybe there's some important advantages I'm not seeing...