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LNQ
05-23-2015, 04:20 AM
Since the post by Chark is buried pretty deep, I thought it would be prudent to have a thread discussing the topic and let the update thread focus more on the other content of the update. So here's what we know about Stardust and Extended Art:


Hi everyone,

I want to begin by saying that we take all of player concerns seriously and would like to give everyone a slightly more extended preview of this feature:

The article, for the sake of brevity explained that EAs can be unlocked by paying gold. While this is technically true, one of the steps we failed to show to players is the item(s) required to unlock the EA: star dust.

http://www.hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Extended_Art_02.jpg (http://www.hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Extended_Art_02.jpg)

Players will be able to purchase star dust from us directly for gold, but that's not the only way for people to acquire star dust. For example star dust can drop from Arena and in the future, other PvE activities. I hope this piece of information will at least alleviate some concerns that the "cost" to unlock EAs is too high.

http://www.hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Extended_Art_01.jpg (http://www.hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Extended_Art_01.jpg)


I would also like to try to address some of the recurring concerns in this thread and try to answer some questions:

1. Why did you take away the double back feature for this?

We didn't. We still plan to release the double back feature. There are other things we can do to a card as a reward for playing with it.

2. You are robbing me of value! In the world where EA unlocks were attached to achievements, I could grind gold AND unlock EAs. Now I can just grind gold.

It's important to understand that both acquisition of gold and acquisition of achievements is a function of time. We control the rate at which you acquire gold via rewards and we control how quickly you can hit achievements (burn 100 troops vs. burn 1000 troops for example). We can easily increase the rate of gold acquisition to accomodate for the fact that now you don't get the incidental benefit of unlocking achievements.

3. Will you be able to earn EAs through double backs when the double back feature comes out?

No. This is a permanent change. EAs can be unlocked with star dust. Star dust can be purchased for gold, or received as loot in the game. Double back feature will unlock other aesthetics on the cards.

4. Do EAs have to always be displayed as such?

We are currently working on this feature, so things may be subject to change. However, the current plan is to allow players to control what they want to display.

In addition, we would never sacrifice the functionality of the game for new players in exchange for a chase feature. In other words, we will to the best of our abilities try to ensure that this feature doesn't create a negative play experience for a new player, or somehow grants someone an advantage in a tournament.

5. Does this mean that we finally get Dragon's blood starters?

No, we are still working on the foil feature in the game. Until then, we are not going to release the Dragon blood starter.

6. I am upset that EAs when from "something you can unlock by playing" to "something you can unlock by paying out a ton of gold"

It's important to remember that "something you can unlock by playing" still applies for this. You get gold and star dust drops by playing the game. You just now have more utility in what cards you want to upgrade. And incidentally gold over all is a more valuable commodity for players.

7. Are you worried that this will push the price of gold too far.

We tend to keep an eye on this stuff fairly closely. Since this feature is optional, we believe that market forces will self correct here. If people think the utility of gold is not enough to justify the current exchange rate, that rate tends to adjust. As the rate adjusts it becomes attractive for some people to spend gold because it's easier to acquire and so on.

Mahes
05-23-2015, 04:23 AM
I had wondered if they were going to do an alternate form of currency. I had thought that gem types could be used but Star Dust works too. It will be interesting to see what other things Star Dust might be used for.

poizonous
05-23-2015, 04:26 AM
In regards to #6, I am sorry Chark but you are incorrect, now i am forced to play PvE to achieve this, where as originally I could unlock this from PvP matches and sadly I still dislike the idea of forcing players into a certain area of the game for things, hence leading to the fact that this will definitely benefit free players with the gold prices.

Mahes
05-23-2015, 04:36 AM
Honestly nobody is asking the important question:

Does Snorting Star Dust provide an adequate high?

This would have a direct effect on true value.

KingGabriel
05-23-2015, 04:52 AM
In regards to #6, I am sorry Chark but you are incorrect, now i am forced to play PvE to achieve this, where as originally I could unlock this from PvP matches and sadly I still dislike the idea of forcing players into a certain area of the game for things, hence leading to the fact that this will definitely benefit free players with the gold prices.
Spend your winnings in PvP on gold then... *shrug*

Xenavire
05-23-2015, 04:54 AM
In regards to #6, I am sorry Chark but you are incorrect, now i am forced to play PvE to achieve this, where as originally I could unlock this from PvP matches and sadly I still dislike the idea of forcing players into a certain area of the game for things, hence leading to the fact that this will definitely benefit free players with the gold prices.

Actually, you are flat-out wrong. The devs have admitted that there probably would have been PvE achievements for PvP EA. So this actually helps you.

poizonous
05-23-2015, 04:58 AM
Really Xena? Well regardless this still means gold value stays too high until more faucets come into the game which is my main gripe.

Xenavire
05-23-2015, 04:59 AM
Really Xena? Well regardless this still means gold value stays too high until more faucets come into the game which is my main gripe.

So don't partake in the gold side of the economy until there are more faucets? Or you could use it to your advantage and grind a bit.

Ertzi
05-23-2015, 05:16 AM
I feel it is important to mention that Stardust is an underrated gem of a movie. One of my all-time favorite flicks. Especially awesome to watch with your Significant Other, because romantic. This one: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486655/reference

What? The title says "Stardust and Extended Art Discussion". No opinions on the extended art. Except that they look incredible.

Alamand
05-23-2015, 05:18 AM
Overall I'm glad there's still a way to unlock Extended art without directly paying for them, even if you're losing out on the opportunity cost of selling the item, I could still live with it if the drop rates are decent enough.

However I have to disagree with part of #7, sure it will be self correcting, but just because people don't think it's worth it to spend money on EA doesn't mean they don't want to, so if they're priced too high you're essentially taking content away from people that want it. And while it wouldn't be enough to drive people away on it's own, if similar things start piling up it can easily start driving people away and make them view the game in a more negative light overall.

KingGabriel
05-23-2015, 05:23 AM
I feel it is important to mention that Stardust is an underrated gem of a movie. One of my all-time favorite flicks. Especially awesome to watch with your Significant Other, because romantic. This one: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486655/reference

What? The title says "Stardust and Extended Art Discussion". No opinions on the extended art. Except that they look incredible.

Stardust is a great film.

Patrigan
05-23-2015, 05:29 AM
Stardust is a great film.

Stardust has a special place in my heart. My first date with my wife was a cinema visit to this movie. Pretty romantic, yet adventurous stuff, much like our relationship still is.

LNQ
05-23-2015, 05:42 AM
Our first movie together was Despicable Me 2. That worked, too. :)

Salverus
05-23-2015, 06:09 AM
if you buy the extended art for a construction plans, does the transformed version also have extended art?
e.g. construction plans: hornet bot and then the hornet bot itself?
Same for things like the kindling skarn, do you buy it for all 3 versions of the card?

What if i have an extended art charge bot and transform it into a war bot with a construct foreman?

How can i get extended art on the worker bot from my champions ability?

Wouldnt it make more sense to buy the extended art per card and then increase the price by four. Thus e.g. you buy the EA for a war bot, then all your war bots you have (in play, in deck or in hand etc) all have extended art, regardless how they were created.

ossuary
05-23-2015, 06:20 AM
Even if SOME of the achievements would have required PVE to complete, not all of them would. So before we had a system where many or most cards could be EA'ed through PVP, now ALL of them require PVE (or paying plat) to unlock. That is unarguably worse for PVP-focused players than the original system. Exponentially so.

Kami
05-23-2015, 07:02 AM
Stardust not being a direct gold unlock is a huge game changer. Especially if it now means it will be added to loot tables and so forth.

True, you'll have those that will still be upset that they have to 'pay' to unlock EA but the benefits to this system give it exceptional flexibility in my opinion. For all we know, this could eventually be tied to the VIP system as well?


Even if SOME of the achievements would have required PVE to complete, not all of them would. So before we had a system where many or most cards could be EA'ed through PVP, now ALL of them require PVE (or paying plat) to unlock. That is unarguably worse for PVP-focused players than the original system. Exponentially so.

There's never been any indication what the quantity of 'some' would be. There's also no indication that 'many or most cards could be EA'ed through PvP'. This was all assumed by the community as far as I can tell.

The current system is marginally worse for PvP-focused players, but you also have to understand that it is the players who introduce platinum into the system that will have a strong influence on the economy. If gold becomes more valuable, so does platinum.

As a non-PvP-focused player that has bought platinum and spent some (and will continue to do so through the future), at least now I can unlock EA without spending who-knows-how-much on tournaments and failing repeatedly and never being able to unlock certain EA via achievements.

The previous assumption was too one-sided and geared way too much to the benefit of PvP-focused players. Now it's a more level playing field.


Stardust is a great film.

Yep and because it was so great, I just had to post this again:

http://media.giphy.com/media/kzG46XI2CTfoc/giphy.gif

(Seriously, all I can see here is Princess Cory going: "Stardust for you, Stardust for you... STARDUST FOR EVERYONE! FABULOUS!")

RCDv57
05-23-2015, 07:13 AM
Maybe People can sell their Arena Stardust drops in the AH?

And maybe Princess Cory could have a slightly higher Stardust drop rate.
I mean Cory does enjoy bragging and showing off the Art.

plaguedealer
05-23-2015, 07:13 AM
Stardust and the gold sink are great mechanics for people to get back into arena (or just buy it in the AH)

Chadatog
05-23-2015, 07:33 AM
I feel it is important to mention that Stardust is an underrated gem of a movie. One of my all-time favorite flicks. Especially awesome to watch with your Significant Other, because romantic. This one: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486655/reference

What? The title says "Stardust and Extended Art Discussion". No opinions on the extended art. Except that they look incredible.

This person is 100% right. Stardust is always on my Netflix queue, and I can watch it anytime.

funktion
05-23-2015, 08:01 AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet. Any chance we could see stardust replace gold as a reward for the go icons in chest rolls. By adjusting the chances you could make it the same time defective gold output as is currently the case (perhaps even more).

Another step further would be to tie the rarity of the dust to the chest being rolled. Feels like that might alleviate som of the sticker shock as well as perhaps make getting gold icons on a rare chest roll feel like less of a loss.

Stormlight
05-23-2015, 08:42 AM
Even if SOME of the achievements would have required PVE to complete, not all of them would. So before we had a system where many or most cards could be EA'ed through PVP, now ALL of them require PVE (or paying plat) to unlock. That is unarguably worse for PVP-focused players than the original system. Exponentially so.

I know you said that it's unarguably worse, but let me argue for a little bit...


It's better for primarily Limited-focused PvP players. While Sealed and Draft would have barely helped with unlocking EA before, now any cards sold can be used to get EA.

It's better for completionist PvP players who don't want to use underpowered cards. While I've seen that some PvP players were looking forward to the challenge of creating a wide variety of decks to use each cards, I'm sure that there are at least some PvP players who want to unlock every card without actually having to use each card.

It might be better for PvP players who can go infinite. Depending on the speed at which achievements will be able to be unlocked, it might now be faster to unlock EA cards than it was before.

Achievements will still exist. They've said that they will unlock something at least as exciting as EA. Three possibilities:

It is more exciting than EA, in which case this change is actually better for you as now unlocking achievements gives you something better than before.

It is about the same excitement level as EA, in which case unlocking achievements is just as good as it was before.

It's actually less exciting for you than EA. But again, three possibilities:

Due to either difficulty in unlocking the cards (scarcity of supply) or disagreement (most people think it's more exciting, so demand is greater) it unlocks something worth more than EA. Unlocking achievements is better than it was before, because now you can trade it for EA and get even more in return.

It unlocks something worth just as much as EA. Unlocking achievements is just as good as it was before (a little worse, I suppose, since you have to go to the trouble of trading), as you can trade unlocked achievement cards for EA cards.

It unlocks something worth less than EA. This change actually is worse for PvP-focused, non-Limited players. But unless their value is exponentially worse, I would still argue that this change isn't exponentially worse, just worse.



Personally, I doubt Cory and the rest of the Hex team will fail to achieve their design goal of making it as least as exciting (or failing that, at least as valuable), but technically this is a possibility. I just don't see it as a likely one, thus my argument. =)

Xenavire
05-23-2015, 08:59 AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet. Any chance we could see stardust replace gold as a reward for the go icons in chest rolls. By adjusting the chances you could make it the same time defective gold output as is currently the case (perhaps even more).

Another step further would be to tie the rarity of the dust to the chest being rolled. Feels like that might alleviate som of the sticker shock as well as perhaps make getting gold icons on a rare chest roll feel like less of a loss.

...I actually like this idea. I don't know how you would balance it, but having some sort of stardust drop rate on the wheels would encourage me to roll.

Scammanator
05-23-2015, 09:01 AM
Lots of good points there, Stormlight.

You are, perhaps, ignoring casual PvP players in your analysis. A player with a small collection who just likes playing in the proving grounds won't have much access to stardust. However, once the double-back feature is in, they will very likely be able to upgrade their cards in a few ways through nothing more than casual play. That ought to be enough for most of those players.

Patrigan
05-23-2015, 09:12 AM
Lots of good points there, Stormlight.

You are, perhaps, ignoring casual PvP players in your analysis. A player with a small collection who just likes playing in the proving grounds won't have much access to stardust. However, once the double-back feature is in, they will very likely be able to upgrade their cards in a few ways through nothing more than casual play. That ought to be enough for most of those players.

Honestly, a player who just wants to casual PvP will most likely NOT be able to fulfill most of the achievements...

Diesbudt
05-23-2015, 09:13 AM
I like this idea. It gives more crossover between PvE and pvp allowing F2P players another avenue to get platinum via selling. And since it can be grinded in the same essence but only in PvE now instead of pvp. Which is also fine too because with most those cards who in their right mind would try to put an overtime bot into constructed to have it deal 100 damage to unlock something. I mean since meta defines what cards are played, this opens up a huge opportunity for all cards to have unlocked EA. especially another reason to keep playing PvE if you have completed everything.

fido_one
05-23-2015, 09:15 AM
I love the idea, obviously things have changed enough, but the common stardust icon was in the KS 'one of each crafting material' reward grid for King and above, I wonder if Stardust will also be used in crafting in the future? I'd hope so as it just seems to add a little bit more awesome to something I think is already pretty damn awesome!

israel.kendall
05-23-2015, 09:23 AM
I'm in agreement with Ossuary here. But I've already argued that in the other thread.

So here I'd like to say that the rarities on this stardust lines up perfectly with chest rarity, with "Promo" being "Primal". I am really hoping stardust ends up in chests, as this would alleviate my concerns over losing the ability to EA cards through PvP gameplay.

poizonous
05-23-2015, 10:22 AM
Everyone telling me to avoid the gold market until there are more faucets are just missing the main issue with that. Nothing in the F2P world should make someone 200-400 plat on a regular basis. There is TOO MUCH entry into the paid game for nothing. The price of gold to plat rate makes an Uruunaz win in Arena worth almost 3k plat now between cards and gold... That is absurd and yes, as a paying player, it is ridiculous for the F2P currency to hold that much value. More Sinks with less faucets just continues to make Free players get too much for nothing. 1 Full arena run is worth 1 dollar minimum. If Arena didnt bore me to tears (Due to bad AI) I would grind it all the time but I cant even get myself to do 1 full run a week due to no challenge

Kami
05-23-2015, 10:31 AM
More Sinks with less faucets just continues to make Free players get too much for nothing. 1 Full arena run is worth 1 dollar minimum.

This is a bit of a misconception here. Platinum is finite and only exists if players purchase platinum.

If paying players feel that free players are getting too much from free gold, what will happen is the market will equalize and the players that hold platinum will wait for higher rates of gold. In other words, gold will continue to just sit in free player accounts. Having gold does not automatically mean they will own platinum.

poizonous
05-23-2015, 10:43 AM
Kami you arent wrong but I feel like I am a small part of the group of players who feel gold prices are ridiculous right now. F2P was supposed to be a grind but we are currently rewarding them 100 plat for an arena run right now, and sadly there are some paying players willing to pay that much, and a gold sink like this is just going to continue to push those prices. I know I want an EA deck but I refuse to spend the plat for it, which forces me into the PvE (Which I dont really want to be doing, would preferably play tournaments but that dont help get any Extended Arts)

funktion
05-23-2015, 10:44 AM
...I actually like this idea. I don't know how you would balance it, but having some sort of stardust drop rate on the wheels would encourage me to roll.

Best thing about that is that it is just a matter of doing the math and turning knobs as far as balancing goes. They could have it set so that exact same amount of gold is coming out. Likewise could also adjust the rates to have it lean more towards being a faucet / sink.

Kami
05-23-2015, 10:53 AM
F2P was supposed to be a grind but we are currently rewarding them 100 plat for an arena run right now, and sadly there are some paying players willing to pay that much, and a gold sink like this is just going to continue to push those prices.

I know where you're coming from and I understand but that's perspective. The key thing is to remember that nobody is awarding the platinum directly. Not to mention those that are willing to spend that much platinum for a handful of gold now, well, that's their prerogative.

Even the paying players only have a finite amount of resources to convert to platinum. Eventually those sources will dry up or become limited to a tiny subset of players. Those who managed to convert gold to platinum at a good rate, congrats! Would I have bought Apple stock or Microsoft stock in the past if I could? Definitely.

Don't worry though, right now, you are only seeing the market flux effect of knee-jerk speculation of news that may/may not have a significant impact on the market in the long-term. I don't think we have much to be concerned about. :)

On the flip-side though, if EA were unlocked solely through direct gold payment, then yes, I would be more concerned. It's economics in a sense. Commodities will always be less fluid than currency and as such, more stable.

Selanius
05-23-2015, 10:56 AM
There are two problems right now that people are misdiagnosing as problems with the recent EA announcement:

1. There is not enough content that generates gold.

Arena is fun, but it isn't fun for most players the 50th or 100th time they do a complete run. Think about your favorite video game of all time... how many times did you play it through? I bet that number isn't 100 times. Even in "grindy" games like your traditional MMORPG you get new powers, a change of scenery, and constant reinforcement in the form of loot on monsters. In arena you don't get that reinforcement until the end.

Generate a sufficient amount of PvE content to keep people interested and people will play it. Generating so many sinks that people are FORCED to play PvE is horrible game design. People should play content because it is fun, not because it feels like a job.

2. Prices on rolling chests are too high compared to gold output.

Assuming that HEX does a good job and puts good things in high level chests it just costs too much gold to roll a Legendary chest in the current system. It takes so much gold out of the economy that it leads to scarcity. I am a very active player. I run through a lot of arena, play the auction house profitably, and am very successful at major tournaments and limited queues. I am no where near spinning all my chests. I have bought a significant amount of gold through listing packs and trading with other players and still have dozens of legendary chests to roll.

As an active player I would like a "high difficulty" option to generate gold. Something that requires tight play, an extensive collection, and some luck to win against. I'd like this option to generate sufficient gold to actually start to make a dent in all my sinks.

Kami
05-23-2015, 11:00 AM
There are two problems right now that people are misdiagnosing as problems with the recent EA announcement:

1. There is not enough content that generates gold.

Arena is fun, but it isn't fun for most players the 50th or 100th time they do a complete run. Think about your favorite video game of all time... how many times did you play it through? I bet that number isn't 100 times. Even in "grindy" games like your traditional MMORPG you get new powers, a change of scenery, and constant reinforcement in the form of loot on monsters. In arena you don't get that reinforcement until the end.

Generate a sufficient amount of PvE content to keep people interested and people will play it. Generating so many sinks that people are FORCED to play PvE is horrible game design. People should play content because it is fun, not because it feels like a job.

2. Prices on rolling chests are too high compared to gold output.

Assuming that HEX does a good job and puts good things in high level chests it just costs too much gold to roll a Legendary chest in the current system. It takes so much gold out of the economy that it leads to scarcity. I am a very active player. I run through a lot of arena, play the auction house profitably, and am very successful at major tournaments and limited queues. I am no where near spinning all my chests. I have bought a significant amount of gold through listing packs and trading with other players and still have dozens of legendary chests to roll.

As an active player I would like a "high difficulty" option to generate gold. Something that requires tight play, an extensive collection, and some luck to win against. I'd like this option to generate sufficient gold to actually start to make a dent in all my sinks.

This can all be summed up into content that has yet to be released.

Nobody knows what the future faucets will be.

EA is not time-limited. You can unlock it at your leisure tomorrow or five years from now.

ossuary
05-23-2015, 11:05 AM
Something that needs to be kept in mind in the gold vs plat discussion is that gold is not actually infinitely available either. It's limited by the playerbase size. If the exchange rate gets too jacked up, it could become physically impossible for the players (as a whole) to produce as much gold as the players (as a whole) want, no matter how much plat is willing to be thrown around to acquire it. That's just as bad, in different ways, as an economy where the gold is worthless because it's too easy to get.

If gold is too good, not enough people will be willing to buy/spend plat anymore, and CZE's bottom line will actually suffer for it. I still very firmly believe that this particular change is going to push the exchange rate too far. We're sacrificing quality for delivery timelines here, and I don't like it.

Put EA on XP, and make the rate reasonable. Put foiling on this star dust system (and I like the idea of promos costing double dust of the same level instead of having to pay 25,000 frickin' gold to unlock a common AA! :p). And then we can still have achievements for the awesome double back whatever extra features Cory and Chark and crew are scheming. The way it's being pitched right now is just plain bad.

Selanius
05-23-2015, 11:14 AM
This can all be summed up into content that has yet to be released.

Nobody knows what the future faucets will be.

EA is not time-limited. You can unlock it at your leisure tomorrow or five years from now.

Having more faucets isn't sufficient to solve the problem.

The number of sinks is currently tied to the amount of time you spend playing PvP or spending money on the game. Perhaps stated more accurately, the number of sinks in game is directly tied to the number of PACKS opened.

Chests are generated from opening a pack, cards which can be turned into EAs are generated from opening a pack. Even if more gold faucets are added into the game and more people play the game, the only way gold becomes devalued is if those new players don't open packs or care about chests/EAs. Both of these behaviors seem like things HEXEnt shouldn't be encouraging. The price on spinning chests and EAs is too high.

Kami
05-23-2015, 11:20 AM
Chests are generated from opening a pack, cards which can be turned into EAs are generated from opening a pack. Even if more gold faucets are added into the game and more people play the game, the only way gold becomes devalued is if those new players don't open packs or care about chests/EAs. Both of these behaviors seem like things HEXEnt shouldn't be encouraging. The price on spinning chests and EAs is too high.

That's the genius of it not being a direct gold unlock for EA. You're required to use another commodity (stardust) to unlock EA. As such, bartering becomes possible. Players who focus on PvP will tend to have larger collections than those that focus on PvE which also implies they have more they can trade/sell. Those who PvE more will tend to have PvE exclusive stuff that PvP players may/may not want - and vice-versa.

It's too early to tell just how much an effect this 'change' will be but at first glance, it's not as dire as one would think.

Also, not everyone wants EA cards either. There is still a market for non-EA cards, non-AA cards, etc. More options is always better.

Additionally, since stardust is now a commodity, for all we know, it could now be earned through a large variety of means - not limited to PvE only either.

poizonous
05-23-2015, 11:25 AM
I am fully in favor of a Stardust treasure rewarded in tournaments, with the treasure rewarding a random quality of stardust

Steelio
05-23-2015, 11:26 AM
Pretty much this. Additionally, if the value of plat [relative to gold] dunks enough, the monetary value of cards will dunk as well. I've seen people offering 1 plat per 70 gold. I mean, that's pretty rough... It's amazing for F2P players, but it seems entirely possible for the paying player-base who don't participate in the gold economy to have their cards de-valued purely because of indirect market forces.

Personally, I'd just make it so that playing in limited/constructed/arena awarded points which can be spent unlocking EA's, which would then count as an achievement of sorts for the double backs.

Also, I like to roll chests. I do not want to grind the arena to roll 5-6 common chests per run. I also do not want to pay 20 plat per chest roll. So there should be some means of rolling chests, even if you only play limited. I don't have a massive stash of gold, and the people with the gold are hanging onto it like grim death because the exchange rate favours gold so heavily.

Something to consider - Coming first in a swiss tournament a few months back would net you 35000 gold. By todays rates, that would equate to 500 plat. Which doesn't quite seem right. People might disagree that gold should be reintroduced to tournaments [I would probably be one of them because it would push F2P players out of the game], but I would like a way to roll chests which doesn't involve shelling out a bomb for gold under the current exchange rate or grinding the arena to open a few.

Edit: Also, I might have been a dummy when tournaments were awarding gold for being like 'Oh wow gold, now I can spin some chests'. Cause I could probably have saved up in excess of 400,000. But I saw it as a fun lil extra and just rolled those chests whenever I could. It was described by others at the time as being 'a fun little extra to the game'. But I kinda feel it's becoming more than that >_>


Something that needs to be kept in mind in the gold vs plat discussion is that gold is not actually infinitely available either. It's limited by the playerbase size. If the exchange rate gets too jacked up, it could become physically impossible for the players (as a whole) to produce as much gold as the players (as a whole) want, no matter how much plat is willing to be thrown around to acquire it. That's just as bad, in different ways, as an economy where the gold is worthless because it's too easy to get.

If gold is too good, not enough people will be willing to buy/spend plat anymore, and CZE's bottom line will actually suffer for it. I still very firmly believe that this particular change is going to push the exchange rate too far. We're sacrificing quality for delivery timelines here, and I don't like it.

Put EA on XP, and make the rate reasonable. Put foiling on this star dust system (and I like the idea of promos costing double dust of the same level instead of having to pay 25,000 frickin' gold to unlock a common AA! :p). And then we can still have achievements for the awesome double back whatever extra features Cory and Chark and crew are scheming. The way it's being pitched right now is just plain bad.

Selanius
05-23-2015, 11:27 AM
If they put 1 Stardust in every chest in addition to the loot table that would certainly solve the problem for me! (They even match the chest colors).

There are lots of ways they could implement this feature that would be great. I just think its important for us, as a community, to address our concerns now before its too late.

Barkam
05-23-2015, 11:30 AM
I think people are being short sighted here. Hex is doing absolutely the right thing here. Good job Hex Team!

israel.kendall
05-23-2015, 11:32 AM
Additionally, since stardust is now a commodity, for all we know, it could now be earned through a large variety of means - not limited to PvE only either.

This is the main thing to me at this point. There needs to be a way to get Stardust via PvP activities.

Mike411
05-23-2015, 11:41 AM
'Not enough gold' is a problem easily fixed, if it ever becomes a problem. They could make a ceiling for gold value by selling gold in the store, for a rate of 80 gold to 1 plat or whatever Chark thinks is fair. I think the stardust system sounds fun.

poizonous
05-23-2015, 11:43 AM
If gold is ever sold in store it better not have a value of 80 gold per plat, more like 150-200 and i will be content

TOOT
05-23-2015, 11:48 AM
Chests don't HAVE to be rolled. It is an option. I don't understand why people have it predisposed in their mind that they must roll every chest they own before opening them. If they feel like they are short-changing themselves, I don't really know what to say.

Every minute you are sleeping, you are costing yourself gold by not grinding arena in that time. You are short-changing yourself.

It's even sillier that people are complaining that they don't have enough gold to do so without even knowing what is in the chests themselves exactly. I said this before, but it needs to be repeated. What if 90% of the chests at each level had 90% of the gold it cost to roll the chest at that level? Suddenly, nobody would be concerned about not having enough gold and that it's worth too much.

Chark has proven he has a firm grasp on what's going on. All these opinions based on incomplete information is so loltastic. Let things play out before jumping to conclusions about virtually anything that is not implemented yet.

Steelio
05-23-2015, 11:50 AM
One other way to fix the problem would be to make sure that Arena/gold faucets do not award fixed values, but rather, that the amount awarded depends on the current gold : plat rate, so that running the arena awards a variable amount of gold which then translates into a fixed value of platinum. So when exchange rates are low, the arena grants more gold, and when exchange rates are high, it releases less. Faucets would become dynamic, in that sense. This would make PvP cards retain their $ value [which should be the basis of the market tbh] and would - to my mind at least - make the gold : plat exchange rate converge on a single value. Which is good for the stability of the in-game economy. That way, there is still a player-run currency system, but with safeguards in place. There would also be a market, but there would be an effective floor and a ceiling for the gold : plat rate. Which again is good imo.

Steelio
05-23-2015, 12:02 PM
They don't have to be, but they're a feature and should be reasonably accessible, we can all agree. Whether they should be reasonably accessible to the cross-section of the playerbase who only draft is another matter, and takes a different line of approach. Personally I think they should, but don't really think I could tell you why.


Chests don't HAVE to be rolled. It is an option. I don't understand why people have it predisposed in their mind that they must roll every chest they own before opening them. If they feel like they are short-changing themselves, I don't really know what to say.

Every minute you are sleeping, you are costing yourself gold by not grinding arena in that time. You are short-changing yourself.

It's even sillier that people are complaining that they don't have enough gold to do so without even knowing what is in the chests themselves exactly. I said this before, but it needs to be repeated. What if 90% of the chests at each level had 90% of the gold it cost to roll the chest at that level? Suddenly, nobody would be concerned about not having enough gold and that it's worth too much.

Chark has proven he has a firm grasp on what's going on. All these opinions based on incomplete information is so loltastic. Let things play out before jumping to conclusions about virtually anything that is not implemented yet.

poizonous
05-23-2015, 12:14 PM
Okay, ive been thinking and I came up with an idea. No idea how everyone will react to this, but how about an Alternate buying method. Like have a gold buy AND a plat buy price on stardust in the store? This way F2P players can still access it with gold and Paying players can use plat if they want to. This could also be used to stabilize the trade value of gold to plat if it were implemented.

wolzarg
05-23-2015, 12:18 PM
Fluff should not be sold simple as that.

dogmod
05-23-2015, 12:18 PM
The current issue is that they are tightly turning the screws to make gold more valuable in an effort to make the game more available to new players. They are going to put a push in for marketing and bringing in new players very shortly here. They want the onboarding experience for the new players to be fun and they want to make it seem like expanding your collection is easy to do.

One way of doing that would be to have a fully fleshed out PvE experience where you can advance your character and your decks through PvE only with minimal interactions with the PvP economy. Unfortunately they do not have this available yet. The number of PvE cards currently available is very low and their is a very limited ramp in the PvE center of the economy.

The second way to do this is to make it so the rewards from Arena have a high value. They are doing this at the expense of established players who do not want to grind arena for all of the things that Gold currently does but still want to get those things. This hurts the current players by devaluing their platinum and devaluing their current cards relative to gold. This is good for the long term health of Hex in that new players will find the game more accessible and will get hooked into the Hex we all know and love. They will be able to relatively rapidly accrue the funds to enter the PvP economy without first putting in money which may hook them in creating long term customers.

As an established player I do not like this. As a player who is rapidly making the transition from a young person with more time to money to an employed person with more money than time this is a change that hits me in the pocket book and makes me wish for some chinese gold farmers. That is my personal response. My objective response is that this could be good for the long term health of the game if they can retain these players and convert them to paying customers.

This is much like countries wishing to devalue their currency to encourage exports to sustain their economy. Chark is basically China, and platinum is the reminbi. We are living in the age of Red Hex... all hail Chairman Chark.

I think what really needs to happen is that we need the things this game has needed for months:

Asynchronous tournaments
More PvE with a reasonable onboarding experience and the ability for new players to show advancement without significant interaction with the PvP economy
Ranking system for PvP
Achievement systems

Then they might not need to weight the gold/platinum ratio so heavily towards gold to retain new players.

My 2 cents. Game is still really fun (although I am sick of arena)

wolzarg
05-23-2015, 12:24 PM
Just ask collin nicely and im sure he Will reset The gold value. :cool:

hex_colin
05-23-2015, 12:26 PM
Just ask collin nicely and im sure he Will reset The gold value. :cool:

LOL ;)

WTB Gold! See the trading forum! :)

ossuary
05-23-2015, 12:37 PM
LOL ;)

WTB Gold! See the trading forum! :)

I already sent you everything I have. :p

WTB a time machine so I can go back and tell myself not to spin legendary chests. :D

hex_colin
05-23-2015, 12:46 PM
WTB a time machine so I can go back and tell myself not to spin legendary chests. :D

You'll be glad you did! :)

KingGabriel
05-23-2015, 12:57 PM
I already sent you everything I have. :p

WTB a time machine so I can go back and tell myself not to spin legendary chests. :D

Huh? But the time machine gold sink isn't in till.... I'VE SAID TOO MUCH.

NOBLEStarshield
05-23-2015, 01:14 PM
I don't want to derail the thread just wanted to say the first movie I took my current girlfriend to was Into the Woods but we have seen Stardust multiple times on Netflix :)

ossuary
05-23-2015, 01:20 PM
You'll be glad you did! :)

I highly doubt that, considering my number of fails (99.8%). :p

Yoss
05-23-2015, 01:42 PM
As an active player I would like a "high difficulty" option to generate gold. Something that requires tight play, an extensive collection, and some luck to win against. I'd like this option to generate sufficient gold to actually start to make a dent in all my sinks.

This is a great idea, and one that's been discussed before. Hard Modes create extra content with almost no work. Adding things like Pauper, Singleton, and so on as hard modes would be such a boon.

Yoss
05-23-2015, 01:48 PM
It could become physically impossible for the players (as a whole) to produce as much gold as the players (as a whole) want, no matter how much plat is willing to be thrown around to acquire it. That's just as bad, in different ways, as an economy where the gold is worthless because it's too easy to get.
I do not agree. Perhaps you can explain to me why it's bad to have at least one "hole" for every "electron" in the economy. To me, the ideal is to have precisely one gold coin of supply for every gold coin of demand. However, I would never EVER want there to be a single coin for which there is no slot of demand.

Yoss
05-23-2015, 01:52 PM
'Not enough gold' is a problem easily fixed, if it ever becomes a problem. They could make a ceiling for gold value by selling gold in the store, for a rate of 80 gold to 1 plat or whatever Chark thinks is fair. I think the stardust system sounds fun.

Plat:Gold ratio should NEVER EVER EVER EVER be fixed by Hex. Ever.

EDIT: same comment applies here:

Okay, ive been thinking and I came up with an idea. No idea how everyone will react to this, but how about an Alternate buying method. Like have a gold buy AND a plat buy price on stardust in the store? This way F2P players can still access it with gold and Paying players can use plat if they want to. This could also be used to stabilize the trade value of gold to plat if it were implemented.

Yoss
05-23-2015, 01:59 PM
The current issue is that they are tightly turning the screws to make gold more valuable in an effort to make the game more available to new players. They are going to put a push in for marketing and bringing in new players very shortly here. They want the onboarding experience for the new players to be fun and they want to make it seem like expanding your collection is easy to do.

One way of doing that would be to have a fully fleshed out PvE experience where you can advance your character and your decks through PvE only with minimal interactions with the PvP economy. Unfortunately they do not have this available yet. The number of PvE cards currently available is very low and their is a very limited ramp in the PvE center of the economy.

The second way to do this is to make it so the rewards from Arena have a high value. They are doing this at the expense of established players who do not want to grind arena for all of the things that Gold currently does but still want to get those things. This hurts the current players by devaluing their platinum and devaluing their current cards relative to gold. This is good for the long term health of Hex in that new players will find the game more accessible and will get hooked into the Hex we all know and love. They will be able to relatively rapidly accrue the funds to enter the PvP economy without first putting in money which may hook them in creating long term customers.

As an established player I do not like this. As a player who is rapidly making the transition from a young person with more time to money to an employed person with more money than time this is a change that hits me in the pocket book and makes me wish for some chinese gold farmers. That is my personal response. My objective response is that this could be good for the long term health of the game if they can retain these players and convert them to paying customers.

This is much like countries wishing to devalue their currency to encourage exports to sustain their economy. Chark is basically China, and platinum is the reminbi. We are living in the age of Red Hex... all hail Chairman Chark.

I think what really needs to happen is that we need the things this game has needed for months:

Asynchronous tournaments
More PvE with a reasonable onboarding experience and the ability for new players to show advancement without significant interaction with the PvP economy
Ranking system for PvP
Achievement systems

Then they might not need to weight the gold/platinum ratio so heavily towards gold to retain new players.

My 2 cents. Game is still really fun (although I am sick of arena)

This is a great post.

poizonous
05-23-2015, 02:19 PM
Plat:Gold ratio should NEVER EVER EVER EVER be fixed by Hex. Ever.

EDIT: same comment applies here:

Gold:Plat rate IS fixed by Hex no matter what. The amount of gold they hand out dictates the ratio, so no matter what the ratio will ALWAYS be up to Hex

dogmod
05-23-2015, 02:25 PM
Gold:Plat rate IS fixed by Hex no matter what. The amount of gold they hand out dictates the ratio, so no matter what the ratio will ALWAYS be up to Hex

Affected by is different than fixed by. Can they push the players more up or down on the ratio based on faucets and sinks? Absolutely. Have they fixed it? No.

dogmod
05-23-2015, 02:26 PM
This is a great post.

Thanks Yoss.

hex_colin
05-23-2015, 02:29 PM
The current issue is that they are tightly turning the screws to make gold more valuable in an effort to make the game more available to new players. They are going to put a push in for marketing and bringing in new players very shortly here. They want the onboarding experience for the new players to be fun and they want to make it seem like expanding your collection is easy to do.

I'll think you'll find that this is a bad assumption.

The temporary Gold madness is a function of availability of content, rather than any nefarious plan to make the game more compelling for the F2P set.

dogmod
05-23-2015, 02:35 PM
I'll think you'll find that this is a bad assumption.

The temporary Gold madness is a function of availability of content, rather than any nefarious plan to make the game more compelling for the F2P set.

I never said nefarious. I would be concerned if they weren't thinking about these things much less than if they are doing them without regard to some of the things I noted.

fido_one
05-23-2015, 02:41 PM
This is a great post.

Totally agree with you there Yoss, Dogmod's post was pretty damn awesome. There was one thing in there that I really, really hate to admit though:


"...Game is still really fun (although I am sick of arena)"

Yeah, I am starting to get sick of arena a wee bit. But! Not like this-game-experience-sucks sort of way and more like a I-listened-to-the-following-album-from-Radiohead/Arcade-Fire/[Insert-Your-Band-Here]-and-now-I'm-sick-of-it-I-had-good-reason-to-listen-to-it-3000-times-in-a-row-and-as-a-result-drop-all-communication-with-my-partner-my-extended-and-immediate-family-my-poor-dead-cat-and-whatever-happened-on-the-Internet/World-It's-because-it-was-that-good-But-I-need-to-move-on-now-By-'move-on'-I-mean-GIVE-ME-THE-NEXT-%$^$%#-ALBUM-NOW sort of way.

Which is the good sort of being sick of way to be sick of something! Right? Right?

MatWith1T
05-23-2015, 03:02 PM
I'm hoping with Set 3 (and all future sets) that they repopulate arena champions to show off new stuff. The arena "new car smell" is fading because through both AI limitations and deck familiarity, every encounter is becoming highly predictable. Just like draft fatigue at the end of the set, arena can be kept fresh and replayable with periodic updates

DarkAlkaiser
05-23-2015, 07:02 PM
I'm disappointed to hear this isn't going to be a double back feature. I was guessing, til reading this, that this was just a for now way of getting it in the game. I do look forward to seeing these "other aesthetics" though.


I'm hoping with Set 3 (and all future sets) that they repopulate arena champions to show off new stuff. The arena "new car smell" is fading because through both AI limitations and deck familiarity, every encounter is becoming highly predictable. Just like draft fatigue at the end of the set, arena can be kept fresh and replayable with periodic updates

I agree whole heartedly, just adding more champions to deal with from the new set would be great.

wolzarg
05-23-2015, 07:06 PM
I'm hoping with Set 3 (and all future sets) that they repopulate arena champions to show off new stuff. The arena "new car smell" is fading because through both AI limitations and deck familiarity, every encounter is becoming highly predictable. Just like draft fatigue at the end of the set, arena can be kept fresh and replayable with periodic updates

I played arena yesterday and demon summoned killipede. Never seen that before in 40 runs. Not saying you are wrong just that If you didnt du 100s of runs there might still be some stuff left to see.

Tinfoil
05-23-2015, 07:22 PM
Stardust was a great book and a decent film.

Also, it might be worthwhile to remember that while the playerbase thinks days and weeks into the future, Hexent tries to see years ahead. They know that it will be a couple of years before the full vision of Hex is realised. The system they create is supposed to be balanced, but when they only can release some parts of it at a time, its gonna create temporary imbalances. That is my 2 plat.

ossuary
05-23-2015, 07:35 PM
This is not a temporary imbalance though. This is making it permanently impossible for an average player to EA anything close to a significant portion of their cards. While it's true that we didn't have full details on what the achievements were going to look like (and the devs probably didn't even know at that point), this is still a significant shift that is going to lock certain types of players out from the feature pretty much entirely.

Spiredore
05-23-2015, 07:45 PM
Something I haven't seen anyone else mention yet is that stardust is basically a crafting material (in function, if not in name) and EAs have become our first baby step towards what a crafting system might eventually look like.

That means that while Stardust is just a gold sink attached to EAs for the moment, we may well see both more ways to acquire it (drops, card salvaging, basically any way other materials are aquired) and different ways to use it in the form of more complex formulas. I'm pretty positive about that, really.

Oroniss
05-23-2015, 07:46 PM
Actually, I think that if the achievements are actually worthy of the name, then this probably makes EAs more accessible to the average player.

hex_colin
05-23-2015, 07:51 PM
Something I haven't seen anyone else mention yet is that stardust is basically a crafting material (in function, if not in name) and EAs have become our first baby step towards what a crafting system might eventually look like.

That means that while Stardust is just a gold sink attached to EAs for the moment, we may well see both more ways to acquire it (drops, card salvaging, basically any way other materials are aquired) and different ways to use it in the form of more complex formulas. I'm pretty positive about that, really.

Yeah, I would be very happy if Stardust precursors/building blocks were one of the things you could get from breaking down excess cards. :)

wolzarg
05-23-2015, 09:02 PM
Suddenly AA scrivener skyrockets in price as Colin is looking for AA dust and has sharded 99% of the world supply.

Selanius
05-23-2015, 09:40 PM
That would give my 34 Windbourne Acolyte AAs something to do :P

Svenn
05-23-2015, 10:36 PM
This is the main thing to me at this point. There needs to be a way to get Stardust via PvP activities.

No. There doesn't.

Aradon
05-23-2015, 10:41 PM
Sell a prize pack for gold? Anything that generates anything gives progress towards EA now.

Edit: My only gripe with this is that now I have to choose how to spend my gold (rolls, EA, or the current AA batch), but I suppose that was an inevitable conclusion of a healthy ecosystem. I was originally disappointed that we were losing the achievements adventure & reward, but it sounds like we're still getting achievements. I really don't know what else they have in mind as the 'cool things they can do' in terms of card unlocks, progress, and such that they're hinting at, but I suppose I should continue giving them the benefit of the doubt on that.

Shinjica
05-23-2015, 11:09 PM
I prefer the old system.

Unlocking EA cards by doing achievement on it (for example, doing 50 murder with murder) is more fun than simply find a way to earn more gold faster.

I'm interested in why they changed it? Too difficult to keep the statistics of every card in game?

Oroniss
05-23-2015, 11:36 PM
No, they said in the other thread that there will still be achievements on each card, it will just unlock other cosmetic stuff.

I get the impression it was basically that EA was ready, but double backs weren't, so they figured they should ship this out now and do other cool stuff with achievements when they are ready.

This is essentially the only disappointing thing about this for me, is that it gives me the impression that double backs are still a ways out.

Patrigan
05-24-2015, 12:44 AM
they still have a lot of options for cosmetic stuff, some of which is way cooler:

-Foils (we already know it exists, but is there any idea how?)
-Animated (Blizzard has proven that you can take an older still art,much of the hearthstone art is reused from WoWTCG, and make it animated somehow. Question is how much is the effort)
-Alternate borders
-Alternate sounds
-Alternate boards (though probably not one per card)
-Updated visual effects

And there's probably a lot more that I in a couple of seconds can't think of. So yeah, there'll be plenty to unlock, I would assume.

Ertzi
05-24-2015, 01:15 AM
I do not care about foils at all. I hope they will be behind the biggest paywall or most work, so I can ignore them completely. How I wish foils would have been the gold sink... I think foils are actually uglier than standard cards in a digital format. The only way foil looks better is on a real physical card, and even then I have never understood the allure. But the larger card art image... (as in Extended Art) I love to study the images closely and feel immersed through the card art, so for me EAs are not optional. I need to grind every single one of them eventually. The second I saw the EA Purge on the update, I knew I have to have them all.

I could care less about animations as well. It is just distracting in my opinion. Alternate sounds might be fun, if there were comical sounds available at some point. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I would definitely want my Angels of Dawn to croak like a frog and have my Vampire Kings sing a bit of opera when they come into play. Even better if I could have my Pack Raptors make the sounds their namesake makes in the first Jurassic Park as it calls its brothers in the kitchen. Baby Yeti could sing like a Mogwai. I would be a happy camper if HEX ever offered a possibility to add custom sounds to a card. Even better if I had to earn it in in-game somehow.

To reiterate briefly, I can live with the EAs for gold, as long as I have infinite time to unlock them. This way I will get them all eventually. I am going to play HEX as long as the servers are live, so this will not be a problem, but I still preferred the earlier version of EA unlocks. I am starting to accept this new method though. Just, for the love of Kismet, give us more gold faucets soon.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 03:20 AM
Alternate Sounds (AS) please! Want my AoD's to say "Umad bro?"

WWKnight
05-24-2015, 06:03 AM
Forgive my deviating question...

Is this on live server already? Couldn't find it.

Salverus
05-24-2015, 06:28 AM
Forgive my deviating question...

Is this on live server already? Couldn't find it.

No, as far as i know it will come with the set 3 update, somewhere in July most likely.

Svenn
05-24-2015, 07:27 AM
I prefer the old system.

Unlocking EA cards by doing achievement on it (for example, doing 50 murder with murder) is more fun than simply find a way to earn more gold faster.

I'm interested in why they changed it? Too difficult to keep the statistics of every card in game?
Double backs are still a thing and they will have a different reward now. They probably changed it because they wanted to get EA in now (and another gold sink) and it was ready but Doublebacks weren't. They moved EA off double backs and are replacing it with something else instead.

RobHaven
05-24-2015, 11:54 AM
This is not a temporary imbalance though. This is making it permanently impossible for an average player to EA anything close to a significant portion of their cards. While it's true that we didn't have full details on what the achievements were going to look like (and the devs probably didn't even know at that point), this is still a significant shift that is going to lock certain types of players out from the feature pretty much entirely.

I don't get where you're coming from. How can you state that any current feature will be permanently locked away when you have no idea what features are to come? There are plenty of things that could make EAs very accessible to all crowds. Shouldn't we be a little patient before decrying any current feature as being permanently [insert descriptor here].

poizonous
05-24-2015, 01:15 PM
I don't get where you're coming from. How can you state that any current feature will be permanently locked away when you have no idea what features are to come? There are plenty of things that could make EAs very accessible to all crowds. Shouldn't we be a little patient before decrying any current feature as being permanently [insert descriptor here].

Ossuary has a valid point though. A Casual player, ESPECIALLY a casual PvP player, will never be able to obtain stardust without spending money in this version, where as in the original process of unlocking EA, a casual player could potentially unlock them

Yoss
05-24-2015, 01:21 PM
Ossuary has a valid point though. A Casual player, ESPECIALLY a casual PvP player, will never be able to obtain stardust without spending money in this version, where as in the original process of unlocking EA, a casual player could potentially unlock them

Not really. Chark already said casual PvP matches wouldn't have been allowed due to potential abuse. So, only tournament Constructed would have worked, which isn't exactly Casual.

Svenn
05-24-2015, 01:22 PM
Ossuary has a valid point though. A Casual player, ESPECIALLY a casual PvP player, will never be able to obtain stardust without spending money in this version, where as in the original process of unlocking EA, a casual player could potentially unlock them

They won't be able to unlock EA... but they'll still be able to unlock something else using the same method. They aren't losing out on anything, things have just been shifted.

As for EA, it's a complete vanity thing. I'm perfectly okay with someone who only plays one side of the game needing to pay for it. A PvP player only will not get any of the special PvE sleeves either, also a vanity item. I haven't seen any complaints about that.

Kami
05-24-2015, 01:22 PM
Ossuary has a valid point though. A Casual player, ESPECIALLY a casual PvP player, will never be able to obtain stardust without spending money in this version, where as in the original process of unlocking EA, a casual player could potentially unlock them

I disagree.

A casual PvP player would be in the same boat as a casual PvE player trying to get into PvP without spending.

I'd argue that the earnings a casual PvP player has can eventually be traded/sold for stardust. You'd just be spending a heck of a lot of time to do it.

Likewise, as it stands, a PvE player trying to getting into PvP for free faces a similar barrier in the opposite direction.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 01:50 PM
You guys do not forget that some people are casual PvP in a manner that does not involve drafting and sealed. Some people enjoy deck building, and just playing those decks vs other players in proving grounds or sparring queues. These players currently earn absolutely nothing from playing HEX. Not all PvP players are money machines, and this essentially puts EA out of reach for them.

Svenn
05-24-2015, 01:55 PM
You guys do not forget that some people are casual PvP in a manner that does not involve drafting and sealed. Some people enjoy deck building, and just playing those decks vs other players in proving grounds or sparring queues. These players currently earn absolutely nothing from playing HEX. Not all PvP players are money machines, and this essentially puts EA out of reach for them.
How concerned are these casual players with actually EAing anything? Why do we need to cater every single feature to every single person?

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 01:58 PM
How concerned are these casual players with actually EAing anything? Why do we need to cater every single feature to every single person?

These players had the expectation of being able to EA at least some of their cards through gameplay. Thus it is quite the opposite of catering to them, it is reverse catering. AKA taking away their stuffs.

Yoss
05-24-2015, 02:01 PM
You guys do not forget that some people are casual PvP in a manner that does not involve drafting and sealed. Some people enjoy deck building, and just playing those decks vs other players in proving grounds or sparring queues. These players currently earn absolutely nothing from playing HEX. Not all PvP players are money machines, and this essentially puts EA out of reach for them.

These players wouldn't have gotten EA in the old system either. Casual queues could be abused, per Chark himself.

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 02:02 PM
These players had the expectation of being able to EA at least some of their cards through gameplay. Thus it is quite the opposite of catering to them, it is reverse catering. AKA taking away their stuffs.

But if they don't play in tournaments, which is a pvp card achievement/requirement for the EA... They wouldn't get it either way. Plus casual players probably won't win tournaments easily if they tried.

I think people keep missing the fact that EA would've been as hard if not harder or more player selective in the incarnation we thought it was going to be compared to what was revealed now.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 02:04 PM
These players wouldn't have gotten EA in the old system either. Casual queues could be abused, per Chark himself.

How do you abuse random proving ground? Or the coming ladder system? It is rather obvious not to allow achievements in sparring queue or non-random PvP matches. If the ladder is going to be exploitable then there are bigger problems to worry about.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 02:07 PM
But if they don't play in tournaments, which is a pvp card achievement/requirement for the EA... They wouldn't get it either way. Plus casual players probably won't win tournaments easily if they tried.

I think people keep missing the fact that EA would've been as hard if not harder or more player selective in the incarnation we thought it was going to be compared to what was revealed now.

It could have been as player inclusive as they wanted it to be, the examples on the pack raptor were not set in stone. And I hope that whatever achievement system they do end up implementing will be inclusive of a variety of playstyles. It is good for the overall health of the game.

Svenn
05-24-2015, 02:20 PM
It could have been as player inclusive as they wanted it to be, the examples on the pack raptor were not set in stone. And I hope that whatever achievement system they do end up implementing will be inclusive of a variety of playstyles. It is good for the overall health of the game.
Yes, they will be inclusive to a variety of playstyles, but I wouldn't expect them to cater to any one playstyle. People seem to be thinking that this means every card they want will be filled with achievements that cater to them specifically. That's not true. They'll put in interesting stuff whether that means some PvP cards with PvE achievements, some PvP cards with only PvP achievements, cards that require tournaments, or whatever.

And again, I'd expect these achievements to take dozens (maybe even hundreds) of hours. Doubleback achievements are not going to be easy things that everyone can do or else they will be pointless.

And also again, a large part of the design of this game is to promote the interdependency of PvE and PvP players. There will be lots of ways in which these two will intersect. If you are focusing on just one side of the game you are going to need to be interacting with people on the other side for some of the things you want. It's a very important part of the design and the economy. You will not be able to get everything just by playing only one side.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 03:04 PM
Svenn, all the reasoning in the world about PvE and PvP interactions and such does not change the fact that EA accessibility has been stripped from players who were told they could do it, no matter how hard or how long it takes.

dogmod
05-24-2015, 03:07 PM
Svenn, all the reasoning in the world about PvE and PvP interactions and such does not change the fact that EA accessibility has been stripped from players who were told they could do it, no matter how hard or how long it takes.

So no matter how hard or how long it takes to accrue the gold these players can't get it? Interesting.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 03:13 PM
So no matter how hard or how long it takes to accrue the gold these players can't get it? Interesting.

You're missing the point, it is about how you play. Not sure how you missed that one.

Svenn
05-24-2015, 03:14 PM
Svenn, all the reasoning in the world about PvE and PvP interactions and such does not change the fact that EA accessibility has been stripped from players who were told they could do it, no matter how hard or how long it takes.

But it wasn't. They never said "You can EA entirely through PvP!" People seem to have been under the mistaken assumption that this was the case. That's the point. They said it would be unlocked via achievements before, but never specified that those achievements would be unlockable in PvP.

People are upset because they think something was taken away from them but it was never something they had in the first place.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 03:26 PM
But it wasn't. They never said "You can EA entirely through PvP!" People seem to have been under the mistaken assumption that this was the case. That's the point. They said it would be unlocked via achievements before, but never specified that those achievements would be unlockable in PvP.

People are upset because they think something was taken away from them but it was never something they had in the first place.

Did I ever say get them entirely through PvP? No. The point is that progress could be made and at least a portion of EA could be earned through PvP play.

The way I would have seen it working is like, Pack Raptor requires you to win tourneys as an achievement. But maybe Xentoth Inquisitor has an achievement to kill Uruunaz. There could be exchange here through the players. Or a player has the choice if the PvP or PvE acheivement is worth trying to get yourself, even if that isn't your preferred playstyle. That being said, it would be an achievement, and not the mindless grinding of PvE as the singular source for EA.

But also, as I had mentioned in another thread, if the stardust ends up being in chests then it would be much more balanced and acceptable. Except for AA cost maybe.

Svenn
05-24-2015, 05:11 PM
Did I ever say get them entirely through PvP? No. The point is that progress could be made and at least a portion of EA could be earned through PvP play.

The way I would have seen it working is like, Pack Raptor requires you to win tourneys as an achievement. But maybe Xentoth Inquisitor has an achievement to kill Uruunaz. There could be exchange here through the players. Or a player has the choice if the PvP or PvE acheivement is worth trying to get yourself, even if that isn't your preferred playstyle. That being said, it would be an achievement, and not the mindless grinding of PvE as the singular source for EA.

But also, as I had mentioned in another thread, if the stardust ends up being in chests then it would be much more balanced and acceptable. Except for AA cost maybe.

For all we know they could have settled on every PvP card has 2 PvP achievements and 1 PvE achievement. In that case, you would have either had to grind PvE or buy the cards anyway to unlock even a single EA. Point is, that system was never finalized and was never promised in a way that said you wouldn't have to do PvE.

What if the new thing you unlock with achievements is way cooler than EA? Would you rather they swap the systems and use stardust for that instead?

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 05:35 PM
For all we know they could have settled on every PvP card has 2 PvP achievements and 1 PvE achievement. In that case, you would have either had to grind PvE or buy the cards anyway to unlock even a single EA. Point is, that system was never finalized and was never promised in a way that said you wouldn't have to do PvE.

What if the new thing you unlock with achievements is way cooler than EA? Would you rather they swap the systems and use stardust for that instead?

Actually one would not have to grind PvE for an achievement, unless they put in some dumb achievement like grind 25k gold with this card. And if the cards did have PvE achievements that were interesting it might actually make PvE play more appealing and interesting to me, and I might just do some of them.

sukebe
05-24-2015, 07:09 PM
You guys do not forget that some people are casual PvP in a manner that does not involve drafting and sealed. Some people enjoy deck building, and just playing those decks vs other players in proving grounds or sparring queues. These players currently earn absolutely nothing from playing HEX. Not all PvP players are money machines, and this essentially puts EA out of reach for them.

If you are not willing to put any effort into the game at all, why do you think you deserve any bling at all? It is not hard to earn gold even now and it will get easier and easier. If a person is so casual that do not play tournaments, do not play pve content, and do not spend money in the game, then I think they will be earning everything they deserve. The system they described here is not difficult at all to get full EA a deck. it will be hard and expensive to EA an entire play set but as people have so often mentioned (I think some of the same people complaining about this system in fact) the game is not designed with the assumption most people will even own playsets, let alone want to EA them all.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 08:20 PM
If you are not willing to put any effort into the game at all, why do you think you deserve any bling at all? It is not hard to earn gold even now and it will get easier and easier. If a person is so casual that do not play tournaments, do not play pve content, and do not spend money in the game, then I think they will be earning everything they deserve. The system they described here is not difficult at all to get full EA a deck. it will be hard and expensive to EA an entire play set but as people have so often mentioned (I think some of the same people complaining about this system in fact) the game is not designed with the assumption most people will even own playsets, let alone want to EA them all.

How is wanting to play HEX to unlock achievements not willing to put in effort? How is putting together a decklist and buying it off the AH not spending money on the game?

And it won't be "hard and expensive", it will just be "expensive". What is hard about running a dwarf deck through arena a bajillion times?

dogmod
05-24-2015, 08:58 PM
How is wanting to play HEX to unlock achievements not willing to put in effort? How is putting together a decklist and buying it off the AH not spending money on the game?

And it won't be "hard and expensive", it will just be "expensive". What is hard about running a dwarf deck through arena a bajillion times?

Play PvP, earn cards, sell them for gold. Pure PVP. You are guaranteed to never have to play PvE.

Where as where we stood before they very likely if not assuredly would have had PvE achievements on cards to get the EA. And given statements from CZE themselves this was definitely the case (and will be the case for other unlocks). This fantasy world where every achievement on the card was PvP and you could progress entirely through PvP was a figment of your imagination and no ones trust has been betrayed.

As it stands you will be that much more self sufficient in PvP now just selling cards to buy gold to upgrade.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 09:26 PM
This is the part where I have to start repeating things from previous pages, like when I said that it was never an expectation of 100% EA through PvP alone.

But I'm not going to keep harping on it, I've pretty much said my piece.

sukebe
05-24-2015, 10:40 PM
How is wanting to play HEX to unlock achievements not willing to put in effort? How is putting together a decklist and buying it off the AH not spending money on the game?

And it won't be "hard and expensive", it will just be "expensive". What is hard about running a dwarf deck through arena a bajillion times?

I believe chark said in this very thread that proving grounds was not going to count towards earning these achievements. So again, if you will not spend money on tournaments and will not play pve then you were not going to earn these EA transformations anyway.

Even if they did count random match proving grounds chances are almost guaranteed these people will be able to earn gold (even at a trickle) faster than they can get those achievements anyway. Even with something as simple as kill 50 people with murder would still take way longer and be more dull/repetitive than earning 1k...

poizonous
05-24-2015, 11:14 PM
Even if they did count random match proving grounds chances are almost guaranteed these people will be able to earn gold (even at a trickle) faster than they can get those achievements anyway. Even with something as simple as kill 50 people with murder would still take way longer and be more dull/repetitive than earning 1k...

Thats a matter of opinion Suke, I find nothing more dull in the game than continuously running my head into a wall with arena. I dont know why people are defending this system... Sure the system is okay when we get more faucets, but until such time this is a terrible system that is going to be overpriced with the plat:gold ratio currently

Fyren
05-24-2015, 11:44 PM
Thats a matter of opinion Suke, I find nothing more dull in the game than continuously running my head into a wall with arena. I dont know why people are defending this system... Sure the system is okay when we get more faucets, but until such time this is a terrible system that is going to be overpriced with the plat:gold ratio currently

I've had enough of Arena myself, but I just list cards - even just uncommons and useful commons - after drafts and that seems to make me enough gold to work with, generally speaking, even now. Someone is apparently willing to keep grinding it, and that's all that's required.

I agree that the gold/plat ratio has the potential to get sharper, and probably will initially, but the urgency will eventually go down if they don't introduce any more time-limited gold sinks. The current sink is completely bat-licking nuts because everyone needs their 600K Gold NAO NAO NAO and if they don't do it they'll miss an opportunity forever. You have forever to spin your chests and unlock your EAs.

One of two things might make the situation untenable: Either the grinders really do finally tire of the Arena with none to replace them - or they introduce new time-limited gold sinks with no new faucets. Then I'll be worried.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 11:56 PM
Guys in favor of gold for EA argue that gold both makes it harder and easier to get EA, and is a better system in both instances. Argue every angle, see what sticks.

Malicus
05-25-2015, 02:39 AM
I just realised I will never get to play with EA in draft (not that I ever would have been but I hadn't thought about it). WTB feature that lets you sub in EAs to draft if you own them :P

tyra
05-25-2015, 03:17 AM
@Malicus: Well, it could be possible to just EAify the cards you drafted with Stardust you already own. You could make that available while deckbuilding

ossuary
05-25-2015, 04:34 AM
I just realised I will never get to play with EA in draft (not that I ever would have been but I hadn't thought about it). WTB feature that lets you sub in EAs to draft if you own them :P

This was mentioned quite some time ago in a thread about working on gaining xp to foiling your cards while in limited. Cory responded to the idea with "great suggestion, hadn't thought of it, we can probably try to make that work." So in theory, after your draft stage completes, you would get the option to sub in copies of the cards you already own, either to show off your already-completed bling, or to work on acquiring said bling. Once we reach that stage of features being implemented, of course.

WolfCrypt
05-25-2015, 05:14 PM
I'm sure everything will work out...

darkwonders
05-26-2015, 05:05 AM
I think cards should have the chance to be EA in booster packs.

Xenavire
05-26-2015, 05:14 AM
Ooohh, imagine if primals came all EA by default? More shiny!

darkwonders
05-26-2015, 05:22 AM
Ooohh, imagine if primals came all EA by default? More shiny!

That'd significantly jack up the price of primals in the AH... but it's not necessarily a bad thing. It would give some nice added value to those packs.

Xenavire
05-26-2015, 05:26 AM
That'd significantly jack up the price of primals in the AH... but it's not necessarily a bad thing. It would give some nice added value to those packs.

Yeah, it would be a price hike, but I don't think it would be too extreme (52k max using stardust store prices) and it would fluctuate based on gold value, so it would be an interesting new dynamic.

Would they sell as close to the 'cap' as possible? Or would the demand be low enough to make primals very attractive for EA lovers? Would certain cards have a premuim EA price that would alter the primal cost? Etc.

Salverus
05-26-2015, 06:08 AM
(52k max using stardust store prices)

13 rares * 4k + 2 legendaries * 10k = 72k gold
With the current plat:gold ratio that is an increase of roughly 935 platinum per primal pack (72000/77).
That is almost a 50% increase in its price. So i am not in favour of this idea, especially since getting a primal is already a lottery.

I am more in favour of system where cards / equipment can be broken down and (have a chance) to receive stardust in exchange.

Bombs
05-26-2015, 06:16 AM
@Salverus I think the Rare Stardusts are only 10k a piece.

Salverus
05-26-2015, 06:30 AM
oh right sorry,
i did the calculation correct but typed it wrong, so answer is still 72k extra gold per pack.

Xenavire
05-26-2015, 06:36 AM
13 rares * 4k + 2 legendaries * 10k = 72k gold
With the current plat:gold ratio that is an increase of roughly 935 platinum per primal pack (72000/77).
That is almost a 50% increase in its price. So i am not in favour of this idea, especially since getting a primal is already a lottery.

I am more in favour of system where cards / equipment can be broken down and (have a chance) to receive stardust in exchange.

Bah, was too busy calculating the rares that I forgot to add the legendaries. Not a massive hike though.

And I am fairly sure this idea would actually lower the cost of gold slightly, helping to equalise the expense.

darkwonders
05-26-2015, 07:15 AM
That's the beauty of putting in EA into Packs. It increases the WOW factor of opening a pack. It probably would help balance the price of gold because regular packs will never go above 200p.

And Primal packs will probably go for less than the added EA value because you might not even get the EA cards you want. Just because Hex set the value of making an EA card doesn't mean people will want to actually pay that amount.

Getting them through packs would be a nice alternative way of getting them.

Plus it puts more money into the system cause people will be wanting to buy/crack packs to get them glorious EA cards :D

Fyren
05-26-2015, 07:24 AM
If they put Stardust in the chests, though, isn't that like putting EAs in the packs? Just... fewer but with much more control over what what Arts you Extend?

Xenavire
05-26-2015, 07:35 AM
If they put Stardust in the chests, though, isn't that like putting EAs in the packs? Just... fewer but with much more control over what what Arts you Extend?

Yeah, but we have no guarantees on anything yet, which is why ideas are being thrown out there. I would like both to happen personally.

darkwonders
05-26-2015, 07:45 AM
Yup. Stardust means you can pick which EA you get. Packs you couldn't pick. So there's room for both implementation.

Vorpal
05-26-2015, 09:42 AM
Ossuary has a valid point though. A Casual player, ESPECIALLY a casual PvP player, will never be able to obtain stardust without spending money in this version, where as in the original process of unlocking EA, a casual player could potentially unlock them

This is completely wrong.

First of all, how can you play PvP at all without spending money? PvP players are going to have to spend money to get platinum.

Any player, including casual players, can can get gold, which is how you get stardust.

It might take a lot of work to EA your entire collection, but obviously, it should be hard, or EA would not be something cool and different, but just standard.

I am disappointed that EA's are no longer achievable via double backs, but having them be a gold sink is fine. So far Hex is doing a good job with the gold sinks to keep gold value high. There hasn't been much inflation in gold values at all, which is terrific.

You need desirable things that PvP players want available for gold only so that PvP players have an incentive to trade those packs/plat they have for gold instead, so the 'F2P' model works.

poizonous
05-26-2015, 07:53 PM
"To keep gold value high" That statement alone is a problem. Gold's value should never be close to the value it is right now. An arena run should not reward someone with 100 plat, Gold is supposed to be a grind, a LONG grind to get into the paid game.

bootlace
05-27-2015, 02:07 AM
The reason that F2P PvP players aren't able to earn gold/stardust is because they want paying PvP players to pay PvE players to grind them the gold/stardust for the EAs. If paying PvP players can earn gold/stardust themselves through avenues like random PvP/ladder, then PvE players will have no one to sell their stuff to (so F2P PvPers are collateral damage in that formula at the moment).

Hopefully they'll have some PvP mode where F2P PvPers can go to earn something one day. As it stands forcing new players who much prefer PvP and don't like PvE to play PvE (because of all the incentivization/rewards built into it) doesn't exactly seem intuitive.

Also assuming the ideal goal is to turn all new players into being a Paying PvPer, the conversion from F2P PvPer -> Paying PvPer seems much more likely than the conversion of F2P PvEer -> paying PvPer...so I'd hope they don't leave out F2P PvPers totally out in the cold. I must admit though it's really hard to cater to F2P PvPers without jeopardizing the precarious "PvPers fund PvEers system" in place.

wolzarg
05-27-2015, 02:12 AM
"To keep gold value high" That statement alone is a problem. Gold's value should never be close to the value it is right now. An arena run should not reward someone with 100 plat, Gold is supposed to be a grind, a LONG grind to get into the paid game.
If none buys the gold its not worth anything. 1 gold could be worth 100p as far as i am concerned because the fact is supply and demand will always apply to a free market. If you think the market shouldn't be free then i simply think you are wrong.


The reason that F2P PvP players aren't able to earn gold/stardust is because they want paying PvP players to pay PvE players to grind them the gold/stardust for the EAs. If paying PvP players can earn gold/stardust themselves through avenues like random PvP/ladder, then PvE players will have no one to sell their stuff to (so F2P PvPers are collateral damage in that formula at the moment).

Hopefully they'll have some PvP mode where F2P PvPers can go to earn something one day. As it stands forcing new players who much prefer PvP and don't like PvE to play PvE (because of all the incentivization/rewards built into it) doesn't exactly seem intuitive.

Also assuming the ideal goal is to turn all new players into being a Paying PvPer, the conversion from F2P PvPer -> Paying PvPer seems much more likely than the conversion of F2P PvEer -> paying PvPer...so I'd hope they don't leave out F2P PvPers totally out in the cold. I must admit though it's really hard to cater to F2P PvPers without jeopardizing the precarious "PvPers fund PvEers system" in place.

How can one be a f2p PVPer that refuses to pve? Like are they exclusively playing the market or something because the concept doesn't add up well.

Vorpal
05-27-2015, 10:08 AM
"To keep gold value high" That statement alone is a problem. Gold's value should never be close to the value it is right now.

Why?


An arena run should not reward someone with 100 plat

It doesn't, it rewards them with gold.


Gold is supposed to be a grind

It is. How many arena runs just to roll a legendary chest once? or buy a single common AA card?


a LONG grind to get into the paid game.

It is. The gold to plat conversion is self correcting. If too many people are running arena, 100 plat will buy you more gold. If not enough people are running arena (as is the case currently) 100 plat will buy you less gold.

poizonous
05-27-2015, 10:34 AM
Why?



It doesn't, it rewards them with gold.



It is. How many arena runs just to roll a legendary chest once? or buy a single common AA card?



It is. The gold to plat conversion is self correcting. If too many people are running arena, 100 plat will buy you more gold. If not enough people are running arena (as is the case currently) 100 plat will buy you less gold.

1) Because 7.5k gold being the equivalent of 100 plat is ridiculous

2) Way to be technical, it rewards gold in the equivalent amount of 100 plat.

3) Why are we considering it a grind just because it takes 4 arena runs to roll 1 legendary chest? A grind is supposed to mean it is something that takes time to get into the paid game. At the rate of gold right now it only takes 4 arena runs (maybe 5) to do a draft... Tell me do you think 5 Arena runs should be worthy of a draft? I certainly dont, that is not a grind to me. To me, 4-5 Arena runs should award you enough gold to convert to 100 plat, and add in all the drops and you can be looking at around 200 plat, which is more than generous enough.

4) Currently the gold to plat rate has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of people running arena (most people playing arena are using their gold for themselves)... It simply has to do with the amount of sinks, and lack of faucets. In the future absolutely it will self correct itself, but that doesn't mean there is not an issue currently. Looking to the future doesn't cure the present

Vorpal
05-27-2015, 10:43 AM
1) Because 7.5k gold being the equivalent of 100 plat is ridiculous

I don't think so. And if it is ridiculous, it will fix itself.


2) Way to be technical, it rewards gold in the equivalent amount of 100 plat.

It's not being technical, it is being accurate. There is a huge difference between creating 100 plat and giving that to players, and creating an amount of gold that is currently worth 100 plat and giving that to players instead. It's the difference between a plat faucet and a gold faucet.


3) Why are we considering it a grind just because it takes 4 arena runs to roll 1 legendary chest? A grind is supposed to mean it is something that takes time to get into the paid game.

Define 'takes time' and 'get into the paid game'. How long should it take a new player, running arena, to afford a cheap competitive PvP deck like gorestorm?


At the rate of gold right now it only takes 4 arena runs (maybe 5) to do a draft...

Maybe veteran players. And at store prices, it's 700 plat to do a draft, which is 7 runs. Remember that new players will do less well in arena and take longer. So the time it takes a veteran to earn enough gold in arena for a draft is likely to be half the time it takes a new player. How long does it take you to run through the arena and get 7k gold?


Tell me do you think 5 Arena runs should be worthy of a draft?

It's more like 7, and I consider 7-10 to be entirely reasonable. If it takes you about an hour per run, that's 7-10 hours for a single draft, which is pretty significant.


I certainly dont, that is not a grind to me. To me, 4-5 Arena runs should award you enough gold to convert to 100 plat, and add in all the drops and you can be looking at around 200 plat, which is more than generous enough.

The drops in arena are worth basically nothing. It's entirely about the gold.


4) Currently the gold to plat rate has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of people running arena (most people playing arena are using their gold for themselves)... It simply has to do with the amount of sinks, and lack of faucets. In the future absolutely it will self correct itself, but that doesn't mean there is not an issue currently. Looking to the future doesn't cure the present

If the future already contains the cure for the present (such as a better way to earn gold) then there is no need to deviate from scheduled plans.

thegreybetween
05-27-2015, 10:51 AM
If the future already contains the cure for the present ... then there is no need to deviate from scheduled plans.

This statement, taken by itself, is hilarious.

"Hell with the war, man. That prick Hitler will be dead in another 30-40 years anyway."

plaguedealer
05-27-2015, 11:03 AM
The market is fine even though gold value gas gone up. You can still buy cards for cheap with plat and the chase rares are still valuable. The high gold value allows f2p players a chance to draft, why is that a bad thing?

If you want this game to be one where you must pay money to draft unless there is RIDICULOUS grind, well be careful what you wish for because that might be VERY bad for the game.

israel.kendall
05-27-2015, 11:10 AM
Its not a "free market" it is a market being manipulated from the top. Very tight controls on both the supply and demand sides. HEXEnt is like an OPEC but one that can also heavily influence demand. I'm not saying if its a good thing or bad, but it is surely not a free market.

poizonous
05-27-2015, 11:13 AM
Overall Summary of the Gold to Plat Rates

Great for Free players to get into the PvP

Terrible for paying players who dont like PvE

Packs cost 200 platinum.... If a PvP player doesnt like PvE, why should he have to pay 400 more plat to spin a legendary chest??? That spin is worth 2 packs currently with the gold value. That is a HUGE issue

Now mind you the spin has absolutely nothing to do with the contents of the chest (Barring an upgrade) and what rewards from the wheels of fate are even worth 400 plat? Maybe 3 or 4 items + the chance at a chase rare/legendary???

plaguedealer
05-27-2015, 11:18 AM
How is the high gold value hurting paying customers, the market is fine. Pvp players are not required to role chests. Right now the vast majority of pvp is drafting. It is these arguments that really make me aay show me proof that the market is hurting for pvp players. I am a pvp player and am fine to say the least.

Svenn
05-27-2015, 11:20 AM
Overall Summary of the Gold to Plat Rates

Great for Free players to get into the PvP

Terrible for paying players who dont like PvE

Packs cost 200 platinum.... If a PvP player doesnt like PvE, why should he have to pay 400 more plat to spin a legendary chest??? That spin is worth 2 packs currently with the gold value. That is a HUGE issue

Now mind you the spin has absolutely nothing to do with the contents of the chest (Barring an upgrade) and what rewards from the wheels of fate are even worth 400 plat? Maybe 3 or 4 items + the chance at a chase rare/legendary???
Things are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. If people are willing to pay that much platinum for gold... well, I don't see a problem. Sucks if you don't value gold as much as the current going rate, but that's not a problem with the game.

As for the spins... it's unnecessary to spin them. There is very little in the wheels for a PvP player anyway, they might as well just sell the chests and buy more packs or wait and open them without spinning.

Vorpal
05-27-2015, 12:15 PM
Overall Summary of the Gold to Plat Rates

Great for Free players to get into the PvP

Terrible for paying players who dont like PvE

Packs cost 200 platinum.... If a PvP player doesnt like PvE, why should he have to pay 400 more plat to spin a legendary chest??? That spin is worth 2 packs currently with the gold value. That is a HUGE issue

Now mind you the spin has absolutely nothing to do with the contents of the chest (Barring an upgrade) and what rewards from the wheels of fate are even worth 400 plat? Maybe 3 or 4 items + the chance at a chase rare/legendary???

I think PvP players are meant to sell the chests to PvE players, who will get the gold to roll them, then the PvP players can buy already rolled chests that are cheaper and make a bit of profit on the side.

TOOT
05-27-2015, 12:18 PM
Things are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. If people are willing to pay that much platinum for gold... well, I don't see a problem. Sucks if you don't value gold as much as the current going rate, but that's not a problem with the game.

As for the spins... it's unnecessary to spin them. There is very little in the wheels for a PvP player anyway, they might as well just sell the chests and buy more packs or wait and open them without spinning.

This.


At the current rate, PVP players would prefer to buy gold as opposed to earning gold themselves. At a certain point, if gold reaches too high a value and PVP players still want it, they would go earn gold themselves instead of buying it.

This is all pretty simple stuff. Anyone who is complaining gold is too high, you just don't value it as highly as others. Continuing to argue otherwise is silly.

wolzarg
05-27-2015, 03:42 PM
Its not a "free market" it is a market being manipulated from the top. Very tight controls on both the supply and demand sides. HEXEnt is like an OPEC but one that can also heavily influence demand. I'm not saying if its a good thing or bad, but it is surely not a free market.
Sorry I'm not much into trading what would you call it if i have a cake and who ever is willing to pay the most can buy said cake? Not being condescending in the least it was just the best example for my thought process.

A free pricing market?

bootlace
05-27-2015, 04:01 PM
How can one be a f2p PVPer that refuses to pve?

That's kind of the problem...you can't be a F2P PvPer without playing PvE. Forcing players to play a game format they don't like and hoping THAT will convert them into being a paying customer is not very logical. I like how HS does it: they give you some breadcrumbs when you play on the ladder, and then you realize eventually you need better cards to compete and THAT converts a F2P PvPer into a paying PvPer very well.

PureVapes
05-27-2015, 04:59 PM
That's kind of the problem...you can't be a F2P PvPer without playing PvE. Forcing players to play a game format they don't like and hoping THAT will convert them into being a paying customer is not very logical. I like how HS does it: they give you some breadcrumbs when you play on the ladder, and then you realize eventually you need better cards to compete and THAT converts a F2P PvPer into a paying PvPer very well.

That's very easy to do with a 0 value CCG business model that has low long term potential and relies on power creep to sustain income. This is a completely different system and giving out account bound starter decks and grinding gold + PvE-only cards is really the best you can do without shooting yourself in the foot. The closest thing to offering F2P players a free PvP introduction would be to either make starter decks more meta relevant or offer phantom drafts somehow.

israel.kendall
05-27-2015, 05:28 PM
Sorry I'm not much into trading what would you call it if i have a cake and who ever is willing to pay the most can buy said cake? Not being condescending in the least it was just the best example for my thought process.

A free pricing market?

What we have here is a regulated market, or controlled market. We do not have a free market because the supply and demand are being manipulated.

bootlace
05-27-2015, 06:15 PM
That's very easy to do with a 0 value CCG business model that has low long term potential and relies on power creep to sustain income. This is a completely different system and giving out account bound starter decks and grinding gold + PvE-only cards is really the best you can do without shooting yourself in the foot. The closest thing to offering F2P players a free PvP introduction would be to either make starter decks more meta relevant or offer phantom drafts somehow.

Yes I agree it's extremely difficult to get right in Hex, but I believe the payoff will be huge if they manage.

Some of the ideas you suggested are good starting points . A ladder tiered reward system could be good too. The top players get qualifier points (as they're already paying PvP players with bigger ambitions than getting gold) while the lower ranked players get gold to help improve their deck and start ranking higher and earning a chance at those big qualifier tourneys. Because you get the reward at the end of a set period (every month or whatever) it couldn't be abused either with concede trading or tricks like that. Since paying PvP players get qualifier points and not gold, they're still funding the F2P PvEers through purchase of gold/stardust.

That's just one idea, I'm sure there's much better ones. The thing is all the thought/work seems to be going into making the PvE side of things attractive for new players while PvP for new players is totally forgotten.

wolzarg
05-27-2015, 07:44 PM
What we have here is a regulated market, or controlled market. We do not have a free market because the supply and demand are being manipulated.
Can you give me a single example of a market where supply isn't being manipulated?

Chark
05-27-2015, 07:46 PM
What we have here is a regulated market, or controlled market. We do not have a free market because the supply and demand are being manipulated.

I would characterize HEX's economy as mixed economy. If you want an example of a regulated or controlled market, take a look at Hearthstone. All rates of inputs and outputs are set by Blizzard (including rewards you get per day, cards you unlock by playing and cards you can trade in with the "house" via crafting). Players can not set rates or have private ownership/business deals. Contrast that with HEX, where we (HEX Ent) set rates of inputs and outputs, but players are also free to set prices among themselves.

As a point of reference, almost all country economies are mixed. They certainly range in how much intervention governing bodies (usually governments) impose (for example compare Cuba to United States), but they are all mixed.

wolzarg
05-27-2015, 07:49 PM
When you don't expect it and are just swimming along nicely suddenly BAM Chark attack!

ossuary
05-27-2015, 08:04 PM
Chark attack!

Best description of a surprise dev post ever. :D

israel.kendall
05-27-2015, 08:42 PM
When you don't expect it and are just swimming along nicely suddenly BAM Chark attack!

And thus it's not a free market. I'm not saying it as a bad thing, its just what it is. And for clarity, I do like the hex market (but not that EA thing).

Edit sorry meant to quote chark, too hard to fix on phone lol

ossuary
05-27-2015, 09:15 PM
The point, though, is that most of what people call "free markets" are not, in fact, truly free. Hex's market is just as free as any other real-world market where one of the inputs is under control (and printed money counts as an input under control) - that is, it's only partially free, just like most real-world "free" markets.

These markets are usually called a free market because the players determine (even if indirectly through inaction, in some cases) what each resource and commodity is worth and the goods can move around between them, not because supply is controlled. :p

Bombs
05-27-2015, 09:30 PM
I really REALLY want to know what all is going to be in those chests X-) Come on dust!!

israel.kendall
05-27-2015, 11:39 PM
The point, though, is that most of what people call "free markets" are not, in fact, truly free. Hex's market is just as free as any other real-world market where one of the inputs is under control (and printed money counts as an input under control) - that is, it's only partially free, just like most real-world "free" markets.

These markets are usually called a free market because the players determine (even if indirectly through inaction, in some cases) what each resource and commodity is worth and the goods can move around between them, not because supply is controlled. :p

People can generally call it whatever they want, but that's not going to make it true. Just like when everyone calls the US a democracy, doesn't make that true either. But really it doesn't matter, if some of you guys want to call it free market, and believe it, it's not really going to effect anything in the grand scheme of things.

Also if you think "one of the inputs" are controlled in most real world "free" markets, then you are ignoring taxing income, taxing sales, tarrifs, Fed set interest rates, subsidies, fix in the FOREX market, OPEC, minimum wage laws, interstate commerce laws, NAFTA, etc, etc, etc....

ossuary
05-28-2015, 04:56 AM
One or more. Again, the point is that it's ridiculous for you to be arguing over whether or not the market is 100% free. Of course it's not. Virtually all markets are at least partially mixed. So who cares? :p

Tazelbain
05-28-2015, 07:38 AM
One or more. Again, the point is that it's ridiculous for you to be arguing over whether or not the market is 100% free. Of course it's not. Virtually all markets are at least partially mixed. So who cares? :pWhen one has nothing to argue about, one can always argue about semantics.

Svenn
05-28-2015, 07:43 AM
That's kind of the problem...you can't be a F2P PvPer without playing PvE. Forcing players to play a game format they don't like and hoping THAT will convert them into being a paying customer is not very logical. I like how HS does it: they give you some breadcrumbs when you play on the ladder, and then you realize eventually you need better cards to compete and THAT converts a F2P PvPer into a paying PvPer very well.
That's the model of the game. It's been the model of the game since Kickstarter. We've known this since then. PvP is the paid side of the game. PvE is the free side of the game. You can play non-competitive PvP for free with what you have, but there are no rewards for it. I could see them putting in a free ladder at some point, but that's about it. The entire economy is based around this model. Don't expect it to change.

Zophie
05-28-2015, 09:23 AM
That's the model of the game. It's been the model of the game since Kickstarter. We've known this since then. PvP is the paid side of the game. PvE is the free side of the game. You can play non-competitive PvP for free with what you have, but there are no rewards for it. I could see them putting in a free ladder at some point, but that's about it. The entire economy is based around this model. Don't expect it to change.

You're correct about this being the model of the game, but I don't think that's the point he was trying to make there. Others have brought this up before in other contexts as well, but it's always answered as "that's just how it is". If PVE is the only place for a F2P player to play in where they are rewarded, where is the carrot leading them over to the PVP side to convert them to a paying customer? Sure you could say "the fun is the carrot" - but let's be honest here, people who already know it's fun are probably paying customers already. The model of the game right now feels like it's actively trying to keep the F2P players F2P. Lately with the increases in gold values it also seems like it's actually beginning to discourage people from spending money on PVP at all, since it's currently more valuable to play PVE and get gold than it is to buy plat. Granted this might hit a break even point and swing back in the other direction again, but we're still left with the lack of incentive for a F2P PVE player to become a paying PVP player. I don't know what the perfect solution would be for that, but it definitely feels like there's an opportunity being missed here.

israel.kendall
05-28-2015, 09:50 AM
When one has nothing to argue about, one can always argue about semantics.

It goes back to wolzargs comment on page 14 where he claimed HEX as a free market. I was simply letting him know it is in fact not a free market, that's all. It could have been left at that but people wanted to debate the definition of free market...

wolzarg
05-28-2015, 10:45 AM
It goes back to wolzargs comment on page 14 where he claimed HEX as a free market. I was simply letting him know it is in fact not a free market, that's all. It could have been left at that but people wanted to debate the definition of free market...
Claimed seems like a strong word insinuated possibly. I lack the information and experience needed to differentiate between market states as a whole. What i do claim is that hex is about as free as most markets making it in my mind a free market. Because arguing that there is no such thing when people use the term for a semi free market seems pointless.

israel.kendall
05-28-2015, 11:55 AM
Claimed seems like a strong word insinuated possibly. I lack the information and experience needed to differentiate between market states as a whole. What i do claim is that hex is about as free as most markets making it in my mind a free market. Because arguing that there is no such thing when people use the term for a semi free market seems pointless.


If none buys the gold its not worth anything. 1 gold could be worth 100p as far as i am concerned because the fact is supply and demand will always apply to a free market. If you think the market shouldn't be free then i simply think you are wrong.


If you want to use "free market" as the term for all the mixed (managed) economies in the world (including HEX), then we will be needing something new to call an economy free from intervention, in order to avoid any further confusion.

ossuary
05-28-2015, 12:20 PM
then we will be needing something new to call an economy free from intervention, in order to avoid any further confusion.

How about "pipe dream"? ;)

israel.kendall
05-28-2015, 12:30 PM
How about "pipe dream"? ;)

Sounds about right lol

ForgedSol
05-28-2015, 04:02 PM
You're correct about this being the model of the game, but I don't think that's the point he was trying to make there. Others have brought this up before in other contexts as well, but it's always answered as "that's just how it is". If PVE is the only place for a F2P player to play in where they are rewarded, where is the carrot leading them over to the PVP side to convert them to a paying customer? Sure you could say "the fun is the carrot" - but let's be honest here, people who already know it's fun are probably paying customers already. The model of the game right now feels like it's actively trying to keep the F2P players F2P. Lately with the increases in gold values it also seems like it's actually beginning to discourage people from spending money on PVP at all, since it's currently more valuable to play PVE and get gold than it is to buy plat. Granted this might hit a break even point and swing back in the other direction again, but we're still left with the lack of incentive for a F2P PVE player to become a paying PVP player. I don't know what the perfect solution would be for that, but it definitely feels like there's an opportunity being missed here.

Tournaments and desire to compete would the carrot. If you don't care about direct competition, then nothing will bring you to the pvp side even if it was free. The ability to earn gold to buy packs and test out draft is a great way to test the waters and see if you like it. If you like it enough spending time grinding gold starts to eat into your pvp time that you'd rather just pay to get right back in it.

Zophie
05-28-2015, 04:15 PM
Tournaments and desire to compete would the carrot. If you don't care about direct competition, then nothing will bring you to the pvp side even if it was free. The ability to earn gold to buy packs and test out draft is a great way to test the waters and see if you like it. If you like it enough spending time grinding gold starts to eat into your pvp time that you'd rather just pay to get right back in it.

Bolded part is the missed opportunity here though. If we simply resign to the idea that they're never going to pay, then why bother catering to this demographic at all? I feel like more can be done to ease this particular demographic into the paying side of the game with a little more incentives to get them started. Sure there will always be players that will simply never spend a dime on the game and that's it, but that doesn't mean HXE shouldn't at least provide some incentive beyond just "desire to compete". I'm not saying we need to just start handing out huge buckets of gold and cards and stuff like candy but in some cases a little bit can go a long way.

Another thing I've been thinking about with all this talk about the gold value increasing: Personally, I'm a paying customer, love buying packs when I can and building my collection, but honestly the way the market is sitting I'm feeling more and more like it's actually better value to not spend any money and instead just sit in Arena and farm gold instead.

ForgedSol
05-28-2015, 05:03 PM
Bolded part is the missed opportunity here though. If we simply resign to the idea that they're never going to pay, then why bother catering to this demographic at all? I feel like more can be done to ease this particular demographic into the paying side of the game with a little more incentives to get them started. Sure there will always be players that will simply never spend a dime on the game and that's it, but that doesn't mean HXE shouldn't at least provide some incentive beyond just "desire to compete". I'm not saying we need to just start handing out huge buckets of gold and cards and stuff like candy but in some cases a little bit can go a long way.

Another thing I've been thinking about with all this talk about the gold value increasing: Personally, I'm a paying customer, love buying packs when I can and building my collection, but honestly the way the market is sitting I'm feeling more and more like it's actually better value to not spend any money and instead just sit in Arena and farm gold instead.

I'm the opposite. The more I farm gold in the arena, the less I want to do it. I picked up enough gold to buy two playsets of the AA cards in the store, and then decided it was time to finally start learning how to use the auction house and trade window and start unloading my kickstarter product and just buy gold. And I have the Dungeon Crawler bonus too.

Why should be cater to the PvE F2P player demographic? The whole reason any F2P market needs to cater to that demographic. Attracting a large playerbase with a free portion of the game is a form of marketing the paid part of the game. There will be people that only want to do free PvE stuff, but a portion of those people will be converted to paid players. And if you actually make it possible to buy PvP product with gold, the more likely they'll try it out and learn if they like it or not. It just has to hit the right balance.

Zophie
05-28-2015, 05:06 PM
Why should be cater to the PvE F2P player demographic? The whole reason any F2P market needs to cater to that demographic. Attracting a large playerbase with a free portion of the game is a form of marketing the paid part of the game. There will be people that only want to do free PvE stuff, but a portion of those people will be converted to paid players.

Again, this is something I agree with, but the part in bold is my concern, what method can HXE use to get that portion of people converted to paying players? How do we increase the percentage that do so, and decrease the amount of players that do not?

ForgedSol
05-28-2015, 05:10 PM
I actually think making stardust have a gold value instead of earned through achievements helps this. By using stardust to unlock EA it creates a resource for PvE to trade with. Now there is a decision to be made with what to do with the stardust/gold that wouldn't be there if the card was automatically made into EA through an achievement.

A portion of the players with stardust, especially the ones that don't care about EA, can now decide... maybe I should buy some packs and see what PvP is about? PvE players with gold now have more people to sell their gold to for plat and they can now try to enter a tournament too see what that's all about.

(Edit: I only poked my head into this thread earlier today. So sorry if this is, probably, a repeated argument. I'll start skimming the rest of the thread.)

Zophie
05-28-2015, 05:17 PM
I actually think making stardust have a gold value instead of earned through achievements helps this. By using stardust to unlock EA it creates a resource for PvE to trade with. Now there is a decision to be made with what to do with the stardust/gold that wouldn't be there if the card was automatically made into EA through an achievement.

A portion of the players with stardust, especially the ones that don't care about EA, can now decide... maybe I should buy some packs and see what PvP is about? PvE players with gold now have more people to sell their gold to for plat and they can now try to enter a tournament too see what that's all about.

(Edit: I only poked my head into this thread earlier today. So sorry if this is, probably, a repeated argument. I'll start skimming the rest of the thread.)

That's fair, and I hope that does help, but I just think HXE could "grease the wheels" a bit more to lead people down that path you're describing and encourage them to go that route. It all makes sense on paper, but will your average F2P newbie understand these options and take these steps naturally on their own? It's a big question, and one that kind of touches on the entire user experience which I'm sure HXE constantly looks at improving. I'm sure with time all this will improve but I'd just like to see more done in these areas, especially if it helps me convince my friends to invest more in Hex :)

israel.kendall
05-28-2015, 05:37 PM
Again, this is something I agree with, but the part in bold is my concern, what method can HXE use to get that portion of people converted to paying players? How do we increase the percentage that do so, and decrease the amount of players that do not?

Resistance is futile (yes I'm bored)

http://i.imgur.com/FnZUXbu.jpg

Oroniss
05-28-2015, 06:09 PM
I think it's worth noting here that people who only PvE, may still spend money buying plat.

If you want a large collection for the PvE side of the game, it is very time consuming to try and get that by running PvE for endless hours. The best way to get them to spend money, may actually be just to make the PvE side of the game better.

I doubt I'm the only one who PvPs once a month or less, but who buys a fair bit of plat to build my collection.

If they can get PvE players to PvP, that's great, but we shouldn't assume that just because someone doesn't PvP they aren't contributing to the game financially.

Yoss
05-28-2015, 06:33 PM
Another thing I've been thinking about with all this talk about the gold value increasing: Personally, I'm a paying customer, love buying packs when I can and building my collection, but honestly the way the market is sitting I'm feeling more and more like it's actually better value to not spend any money and instead just sit in Arena and farm gold instead.

You say this as if it's a problem, but it's not. Continue your thought to the logical conclusion. If everyone does this (stops buying plat because farming gold "earns plat" fast), then the value of plat is going to jump up relative to the farmable goods. Pretty soon, gold is down to a level where some players (like yourself) will flip back over to buying plat instead of grinding. It's a self-correcting cycle, a negative feedback loop (as we'd say in Control Theory).

bootlace
05-29-2015, 04:03 AM
That's the model of the game. It's been the model of the game since Kickstarter. We've known this since then. PvP is the paid side of the game. PvE is the free side of the game. You can play non-competitive PvP for free with what you have, but there are no rewards for it. I could see them putting in a free ladder at some point, but that's about it. The entire economy is based around this model. Don't expect it to change.

Besides what Zophie already said, I want to emphasize that I'm not asking the PvP side of the game to be free or F2P. I want new players to be slightly incentivized to try out PvP upon which they will start seeing the fun, get addicted, hit a paywall as their free cards aren't enough and neither is the rate of gold they're earning to breakthrough the paywall, and then they're much more organically converted into a paying player. Please someone explain to me the logical conversion process from F2P PvE to paying PvP currently and why it's better. Sure F2P PvE players could just become paying PvE players as Oroniss said, but again, where is the conversion process for new player to paying PvP player currently.

Drafts/sealed and other limited tournaments should remain 100% paid (because partaking in those gives you full value as you're on equal footing, while playing in ladder you're not getting the full value without paying as you're gimped). A ladder system also makes sense because at the bottom of the ladder the new players can play each other and slowly be eased into being a paying customer, making that fun->addict->paywall->F2P to P2P conversion much more fluid.



You say this as if it's a problem, but it's not. Continue your thought to the logical conclusion. If everyone does this (stops buying plat because farming gold "earns plat" fast), then the value of plat is going to jump up relative to the farmable goods. Pretty soon, gold is down to a level where some players (like yourself) will flip back over to buying plat instead of grinding. It's a self-correcting cycle, a negative feedback loop (as we'd say in Control Theory).

Everyone doesn't need to do 'this' - a small percentage of whales can keep the gold price higher than most other paying players like by themselves. Even today you need ~10 million gold to unlock all the EAs (and this will rise by 10 mil every year), and the gold faucet is max 10k gold an hour. That means 1,000 PvE gaming hours to unlock EAs (not factoring in stardust drops) per year. We're not even factoring the gold that needs to be generated to feed the constant increasing pool of chests. There needs to be a huge influx of F2P players compared with whales but that hasn't been the case for this game thus far, hopefully dungeons (and the attractive lure HexEnt is setting up with gold value) will change that.

Btw every hour some paying player plays Arena, it's an hour they didn't spend money playing something like a draft which would have made the game money. Paying players shouldn't even remotely consider having to play a much lesser fun free format (according to them) just because it seems to be better value.

As it stands an average draft costs about $6 (using AH packs) payout in terms of packs is about $3 on average and lets say cards make up another $2 (once the mass listing and economy get sorted). Playing time takes around 1-2 hours on average. So in those 1-2 hours you're losing about $1 while if you simply played PvE you could have made 10-20k gold in that time which is $1-$2. So in that sense it's a very confusing time for the value-conscious portion of the paying economy and they have every right to question the dynamics in play at the moment.

As I said this could all work out fine in the end if things go as HexEnt are planning and loads of F2Ps join the fray (which would be able to feed the whales and have supply left over to act in a dynamic fashion for the larger cost-conscous playerbase), so we have to wait and see.

Patrigan
05-29-2015, 04:53 AM
This disucssion is so off-topic, but here's a some points.

Why would a PvE player (prefer that term over the bad F2P term) ever invest in playing a PvP tournament? They have no idea what to expect from such a tournament. If you want them to come in to PvP, you should create a free form of tournaments. Permanent free Wild West tournaments with PvE rewards is the luring point. Wild West is crazy and you will need to buy boosters to properly compete. That same crazyness will then get some of the PvE players to try out the less crazy, more controlled PvP tournaments. that's the incentive.
Secondly, why should they play PvP? You're basically looking for the wrong incentive. CZE doesn't need them to actually play PvP, they just need to invest in boosters. This is what chests already do, or PvP equipment in the PvE campaign. Give them a reason to buy boosters, not to play in PvP. Once they've bought enough boosters, the step to PvP will be smaller.

Just some food for thought.

bootlace
05-29-2015, 05:16 AM
Wild West tourney with PvE rewards is a great idea. It allows for the F2P PvEers to potentially get into PvP AND gives F2P PvP players some competitive mode with rewards to get them hooked.

Theres a great system to turn F2P PvEers into paying PvEers but what Im saying is theres no system to turn a F2P PvPer into a paying PvPer. We tell noobs who are interested in PvP to either shell out $7 and hop into draft (where they will probably get crushed) or we tell them to go play PvE...theres something wrong with that. And I dont even know what to tell new players who might want to get into constructed PvP.

plaguedealer
05-29-2015, 05:56 AM
As stated before, a pve player will not necessarily turn to pvp. Pve should be monitized somehow. I have a feeling consumables will fit that bill. Consumables are something we we really know little about.

Pvebplayers will want pvp cards/wheel of fate rewards and that could also be a form of monetization. There are also pve players that want full playsets.

Svenn
05-29-2015, 07:42 AM
As stated before, a pve player will not necessarily turn to pvp. Pve should be monitized somehow. I have a feeling consumables will fit that bill. Consumables are something we we really know little about.

Pvebplayers will want pvp cards/wheel of fate rewards and that could also be a form of monetization. There are also pve players that want full playsets.
PvE will not be monetized, they've said that. They've said they will only sell boosters and starters in the store. It was explicitly stated at some point that they will not be selling consumables.


This disucssion is so off-topic, but here's a some points.

Why would a PvE player (prefer that term over the bad F2P term) ever invest in playing a PvP tournament? They have no idea what to expect from such a tournament. If you want them to come in to PvP, you should create a free form of tournaments. Permanent free Wild West tournaments with PvE rewards is the luring point. Wild West is crazy and you will need to buy boosters to properly compete. That same crazyness will then get some of the PvE players to try out the less crazy, more controlled PvP tournaments. that's the incentive.
Secondly, why should they play PvP? You're basically looking for the wrong incentive. CZE doesn't need them to actually play PvP, they just need to invest in boosters. This is what chests already do, or PvP equipment in the PvE campaign. Give them a reason to buy boosters, not to play in PvP. Once they've bought enough boosters, the step to PvP will be smaller.

Just some food for thought.
There is a planned draft dungeon (I think this might have been the Squirrels vs Dinosaurs dungeon? not 100% on that). An entirely PvE draft experience. That's one hook. That being said, not everyone is interested in PvP and that's okay. We don't need to convert everyone. Your typical PvP player will seek out PvP without needing a nudge. Sure we can add some minor incentives to get people to try it out and maybe some will join, but I don't think there needs to be huge amounts of nudging.

As for the monetization... I don't think we need to worry about having some PvE players that join and never buy anything. I think we already have a much larger percentage of paying players and whales than your typical "free" game.

plaguedealer
05-29-2015, 07:50 AM
Svenn they sell aa in the store right now. They dont have to be stuck with what they said in beta if a change is needed for the good of the game. I would be surprised if you couldnt buy consumables in the store. Pretty sure dust will also be sold in the store. Gold is a currency that b2p players will pay plat to get.

If you want to go further down the rabbit hole, it is better for hex to have gold value increase dramatically so more plat is bought. Which is pretty damn smart and good for the game.

Svenn
05-29-2015, 07:52 AM
Svenn they sell aa in the store right now. They dont have to be stuck with what they said in beta if a change is needed for the good of the game.

For gold. Not platinum.

plaguedealer
05-29-2015, 07:59 AM
I edited my post to talk about the gold/plat dicotomy, not sure why you didnt quote the entire first paragraph.

Tazelbain
05-29-2015, 08:03 AM
Ya, it funny how I started Marvel's Heroes, I was like "I am not going spend any money this" and now I have $50 in it. I think PvE brings in more money then people give it credit. People act like its purely a lose leader. But it wouldn't surprise my if PvE was making more money for HexEnt with PvP in lull in between sets.

Svenn
05-29-2015, 08:58 AM
I edited my post to talk about the gold/plat dicotomy, not sure why you didnt quote the entire first paragraph.
Because you edited your post at 10:57 and I posted my response at 10:52? ;)

Consumables for gold, sure. I'm 99% sure that's a thing (I think Cory already said so). But that's not paid currency. It's the regular in-game currency. We'll see lots of stuff for sale for gold including PvE cards. That's how in-game currency works. Also, I'm pretty sure once the PvE stuff is in we'll not see gold sales in the regular store but in various PvE stuff instead.

Tazelbain
05-29-2015, 09:09 AM
They should make the gold store an actual bazaar/market dungeon. Where you have barter to good prices have unexpected deals and unexpected fights and unexpected encounters.

TOOT
05-29-2015, 10:25 AM
Besides what Zophie already said, I want to emphasize that I'm not asking the PvP side of the game to be free or F2P. I want new players to be slightly incentivized to try out PvP upon which they will start seeing the fun, get addicted, hit a paywall as their free cards aren't enough and neither is the rate of gold they're earning to breakthrough the paywall, and then they're much more organically converted into a paying player. Please someone explain to me the logical conversion process from F2P PvE to paying PvP currently and why it's better. Sure F2P PvE players could just become paying PvE players as Oroniss said, but again, where is the conversion process for new player to paying PvP player currently.

Drafts/sealed and other limited tournaments should remain 100% paid (because partaking in those gives you full value as you're on equal footing, while playing in ladder you're not getting the full value without paying as you're gimped). A ladder system also makes sense because at the bottom of the ladder the new players can play each other and slowly be eased into being a paying customer, making that fun->addict->paywall->F2P to P2P conversion much more fluid.




Everyone doesn't need to do 'this' - a small percentage of whales can keep the gold price higher than most other paying players like by themselves. Even today you need ~10 million gold to unlock all the EAs (and this will rise by 10 mil every year), and the gold faucet is max 10k gold an hour. That means 1,000 PvE gaming hours to unlock EAs (not factoring in stardust drops) per year. We're not even factoring the gold that needs to be generated to feed the constant increasing pool of chests. There needs to be a huge influx of F2P players compared with whales but that hasn't been the case for this game thus far, hopefully dungeons (and the attractive lure HexEnt is setting up with gold value) will change that.

Btw every hour some paying player plays Arena, it's an hour they didn't spend money playing something like a draft which would have made the game money. Paying players shouldn't even remotely consider having to play a much lesser fun free format (according to them) just because it seems to be better value.

As it stands an average draft costs about $6 (using AH packs) payout in terms of packs is about $3 on average and lets say cards make up another $2 (once the mass listing and economy get sorted). Playing time takes around 1-2 hours on average. So in those 1-2 hours you're losing about $1 while if you simply played PvE you could have made 10-20k gold in that time which is $1-$2. So in that sense it's a very confusing time for the value-conscious portion of the paying economy and they have every right to question the dynamics in play at the moment.

As I said this could all work out fine in the end if things go as HexEnt are planning and loads of F2Ps join the fray (which would be able to feed the whales and have supply left over to act in a dynamic fashion for the larger cost-conscous playerbase), so we have to wait and see.

Something that needs to be mentioned that will disrupt this overview.

Presumably, plenty of PVE cards and equipment are going to be available only by opening chests. Plenty of F2P/PVE players are going to want these and won't have any way of getting themselves if they aren't buying any boosters. PVP players who want gold will be able to get it for "nothing" if they just unload their PVE items they get from chests that they'll have 0 interest in if they don't care about PVE at all. They can also just sell off their chests, rolled or unrolled.

Zophie
05-29-2015, 10:41 AM
Presumably, plenty of PVE cards and equipment are going to be available only by opening chests.

We don't actually know this for sure. You might be right, but I'm skeptical since chests are mostly rewarding paying PVP players so I'd imagine they'd mostly contain PVP related cards and materials and stuff. I dunno, I could be wrong too, but either way I'm sure we'll all be surprised by what's in those chests :)

Aradon
05-29-2015, 10:43 AM
We don't actually know this for sure. You might be right, but I'm skeptical since chests are mostly rewarding paying PVP players so I'd imagine they'd mostly contain PVP related cards and materials and stuff. I dunno, I could be wrong too, but either way I'm sure we'll all be surprised by what's in those chests :)

I think the plan was for chests to contain PvE things to tempt PvP players to try the other side of the game. Failing that, it encourages them to sell to PvE players and grow that cross-player market.

israel.kendall
05-29-2015, 10:47 AM
We don't actually know this for sure. You might be right, but I'm skeptical since chests are mostly rewarding paying PVP players so I'd imagine they'd mostly contain PVP related cards and materials and stuff. I dunno, I could be wrong too, but either way I'm sure we'll all be surprised by what's in those chests :)

Yeah, but look how PVE heavy the chest spin rewards are. I get more mercs, equip, and PvE cards than anything else. I'll bet chests will still contain PvP stuff (like the AA's), but will be heavily weighted with PvE and crafting things.

Zophie
05-29-2015, 10:55 AM
Yeah, but look how PVE heavy the chest spin rewards are. I get more mercs, equip, and PvE cards than anything else. I'll bet chests will still contain PvP stuff (like the AA's), but will be heavily weighted with PvE and crafting things.

That's true, you could totally be right, I'm sure we can all agree that it'll be very interesting when we get to finally find out what's in those things :D

Turtlewing
05-29-2015, 10:56 AM
We don't actually know this for sure. You might be right, but I'm skeptical since chests are mostly rewarding paying PVP players so I'd imagine they'd mostly contain PVP related cards and materials and stuff. I dunno, I could be wrong too, but either way I'm sure we'll all be surprised by what's in those chests :)

The only reason to put PvP stuff in chests would be if you had something that you wanted to be absent in limited but present in constructed.

I'd expect the vast majority of chest contents to be for PvE (mercs, equipment, etc.) or things that don't tie into actual PvP games directly (sleeves, crafting materials, etc.)

Zophie
05-29-2015, 11:00 AM
I'd expect the vast majority of chest contents to be for PvE (mercs, equipment, etc.) or things that don't tie into actual PvP games directly (sleeves, crafting materials, etc.)

Yeah I was thinking that ideally the loot tables would be moved around when dungeons come out, so dungeons primarily awarded PVE cards, equip for PVE cards, and mercs/crafting mats. And then chests from packs would contain AAs/sleeves, equip for PVP cards, and mercs/crafting mats. We'll see, I'm sure they'll surprise all of us

israel.kendall
05-29-2015, 11:14 AM
That's true, you could totally be right, I'm sure we can all agree that it'll be very interesting when we get to finally find out what's in those things :D

Also, on a topic you commented on earlier about converting F2P PvE guys to paying customers, what better way to get a PvE guy to buy packs than with chests full of PvE swag? Us more PvP oriented players will buy the packs no matter what is in the chests, honestly.

Gwaer
05-30-2015, 02:42 AM
If the chests are PVE oriented people still won't open packs for them. They'll just buy chests from PVP players who have no interest in the PVE gear.

WolfCrypt
05-30-2015, 04:32 AM
Um is stardust in game? I'm not sure this is cleared up.

ossuary
05-30-2015, 05:05 AM
No. That question has been answered at least 3 times so far. ;)

It's expected to come at the same time as set 3.

Mahes
05-30-2015, 07:08 AM
Along with the ability to finally open chests.

Vorsa
05-30-2015, 07:49 AM
Along with the ability to finally open chests.

Sadly that's not been indicated anywhere - the closest has been an interview where the author (so not a dev quote) mentioned "more equipment" coming with set 3.

ossuary
05-30-2015, 08:05 AM
Sadly that's not been indicated anywhere - the closest has been an interview where the author (so not a dev quote) mentioned "more equipment" coming with set 3.

Sorry, incorrect. Cory stated (a while ago) that the plan was to have chests finally able to be opened when set 3 releases. It's going to be a big patch. :)

As with all things, it's subject to change until we get final confirmation or it's actually released, but that was the plan as of the last time we had official word.

Xenavire
05-30-2015, 08:25 AM
Sorry, incorrect. Cory stated (a while ago) that the plan was to have chests finally able to be opened when set 3 releases. It's going to be a big patch. :)

As with all things, it's subject to change until we get final confirmation or it's actually released, but that was the plan as of the last time we had official word.

This is correct - the last heard plan was set 3+chests. Now that EA has been added, who knows if chests are still going to fit, but we have no indication that they have been delayed.

israel.kendall
05-30-2015, 11:54 AM
This is correct - the last heard plan was set 3+chests. Now that EA has been added, who knows if chests are still going to fit, but we have no indication that they have been delayed.

Since chest opening "almost" made it into the last major patch, I'd be surprised if it didn't make it into set 3 patch.

Xenavire
05-30-2015, 12:23 PM
Since chest opening "almost" made it into the last major patch, I'd be surprised if it didn't make it into set 3 patch.

We were never told exactly why it didn't make it in last major patch. We have made educated guesses, but who knows? It wouldn't be the first time (remember the 'show all' feature? Was functional for several patches, then was removed for a good while, then came back. We were never told why.)

israel.kendall
05-30-2015, 12:35 PM
We were never told exactly why it didn't make it in last major patch. We have made educated guesses, but who knows? It wouldn't be the first time (remember the 'show all' feature? Was functional for several patches, then was removed for a good while, then came back. We were never told why.)

Yeah you have a good point. There were things almost ready back in December (async limited) that we still don't have yet. I won't get my hopes up.

Xenavire
05-30-2015, 12:42 PM
Yeah you have a good point. There were things almost ready back in December (async limited) that we still don't have yet. I won't get my hopes up.

I am hoping my carefully deployed realistic thinking will entice a yea or nay answer... :p But yeah, it seems highly likely that we will get chest opening, but until the patch drops (or we get 100% confirmation), it is best to keep in mind that it could be unfortunately delayed. Of course, it is within the realm of possibility that anything could be delayed, including set 3, so I better shut the hell up and not tempt fate!

Gwaer
05-31-2015, 03:09 AM
The set 3 patch is gonna be ridiculous. We're talking megaboner territory. Even if I disagree with the direction of the EA's I cannot deny that all of the things coming are sorely needed.

Stok3d
05-31-2015, 06:19 PM
4. Do EAs have to always be displayed as such?


We are currently working on this feature, so things may be subject to change. However, the current plan is to allow players to control what they want to display.

In addition, we would never sacrifice the functionality of the game for new players in exchange for a chase feature. In other words, we will to the best of our abilities try to ensure that this feature doesn't create a negative play experience for a new player, or somehow grants someone an advantage in a tournament.

It would seem one solution would be that the viewing of EA is defaulted as 'Turned Off' for new comers and allowed to be 'Turned On' manually. A random tool tip would assist in alerting people of this process. Just a random thought.

israel.kendall
05-31-2015, 06:46 PM
It would seem one solution would be that the viewing of EA is defaulted as 'Turned Off' for new comers and allowed to be 'Turned On' manually. A random tool tip would assist in alerting people of this process. Just a random thought.

Weird, I would think they just put card text out to the side and there is no confusion with EA?

BossHoss
05-31-2015, 07:32 PM
Weird, I would think they just put card text out to the side and there is no confusion with EA?

Why not have the tooltip card description on the zoom in screen of the card? New players are going to zoom to read the cards EA or not anyways.

israel.kendall
05-31-2015, 08:45 PM
Why not have the tooltip card description on the zoom in screen of the card? New players are going to zoom to read the cards EA or not anyways.

I want to zoom on EA and it be EA personally, want to admire the art up close. So I'd prefer the text out to the side or bottom. But not everyone is like me, so I dunno. I just know there are plenty of ways to do it without turning it off and rendering it useless.

BossHoss
05-31-2015, 09:00 PM
I want to zoom on EA and it be EA personally, want to admire the art up close. So I'd prefer the text out to the side or bottom. But not everyone is like me, so I dunno. I just know there are plenty of ways to do it without turning it off and rendering it useless.

I agree. I imagine generic text boxes outside the card on the left similar to card activations on the right hand side.

ossuary
05-31-2015, 10:01 PM
I agree. I imagine generic text boxes outside the card on the left similar to card activations on the right hand side.

Yeah, that's how I picture it too. The EA should still be EA when you zoom in on it, that's the whole point of having more art.

israel.kendall
05-31-2015, 10:17 PM
Yeah, that's how I picture it too. The EA should still be EA when you zoom in on it, that's the whole point of having more art.

Speaking of the point of admiring art, we really also need to be able to right click decks to bring up enlarged sleeves, with the name and where they came from. Without that we are missing 50% of the entire point of sleeves as well.

Ertzi
05-31-2015, 11:47 PM
Any chance that unlocking a card's EA would give the option to view the art (and only the art) in full screen (or at least humongous) at some point? I really want to examine all the minute details in every single card. Other option would be to have the art viewable in an external site or on the official one.

Cory always says he loves art, so give us a method to enjoy it. Even with EA, the zoomed card art is still way too small to enjoy everything about it currently.