PDA

View Full Version : Petition: Change AA Extended Art Costs scale with Rarity.



Lukezors
05-24-2015, 08:58 AM
I mentioned this in the friday update thread and it was well received but got a little buried.

Instead of AA EA costing 25k (or one AA stardust) it could cost 2 stardust of the appropriate rarity. This it's a little more appropriate in cost for AA commons that are easy to get, but still costs more than regular cards.

Thoughts?

Erukk
05-24-2015, 09:08 AM
I think a more appropriate title might be "Petition: Change AA Extended Art Costs scale with Card's Original Rarity." It might get a bit confusing since AA (or Promotional) is a type of rarity, or at least it's treated as such.

Other than that, I think we lack too much information regarding how stardust is going to drop for me to really make an informed opinion on the matter.

RCDv57
05-24-2015, 09:38 AM
I'm fine with the AA commons needing the expensive Stardust.
Mostly because it is strictly a cosmetic feature, and allows a player to say "Hey I REALLY like this card"

KingGabriel
05-24-2015, 09:42 AM
That rarity isn't accurate either: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40331&highlight=counts

Xenavire
05-24-2015, 10:29 AM
That rarity isn't accurate either: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=40331&highlight=counts

It really doesn't matter how many copies exist to most people. :p

As it is, I just want the cost of AA's to feel appropriate, and at 150% markup over Legendary, it doesn't feel at all appropriate. I like the stardust concept, but I think the best idea is a flat 2x Legendary stardust cost (knocking 5k off the cost of AA's.)

Kilo24
05-24-2015, 11:01 AM
I must say that I do also find the cost of the AA EA to be excessive. The gold from ~3 arena runs for one single card is a lot, especially for common AAs. I was under the impression that there would be a large variety of AA cards of different market values, and while 25k would be okay for a Living Totem or Cerulean Mirror Knight AA it would be obscene for Adamanthian Scrivener or Reactor Bot. Basing it off of rarity is imperfect, but not nearly as problematic.

My opinion may change depending on how easy it is to get expensive stardust outside of the store, but if it holds to the same precedent of valuable drops being a very low chance that the player can't do much to increase (like the highly random equipment, wheels of fate rewards, or Uruunaz showing up) then it won't.

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 11:07 AM
I do not sign this petition. There must always be a carrot so prices have to be a bit high. I think the price is right.

Vorsa
05-24-2015, 11:17 AM
It's close, but I'll have to go with not signing.

Negatives of 25k AA EA
1. Discourages AA collecting.
2. AA's tend to be more impressive.

Positives of 25k AA EA
1. I'm a sucker for AA's, so some discouragement is handy!
2. Games need chase items - acutely aware after I bought lots of dirt-cheap equipment when the arena was introduced, only to realize I'd basically eliminated all farming impetus (up until EE gold-sink was announced).
3. Each promo stardust drop is going to feel pretty darn special - I'll feel very swanky once I (eventually) EE my 2 Princess Victoria's or all 4 Buccaneers.

funktion
05-24-2015, 11:43 AM
I do not sign this petition. There must always be a carrot so prices have to be a bit high. I think the price is right.

This.

Edit: I understand this means (given current info about faucets) that I'm unlikely to be able to pimp out a large portion of my collection. I'm ok with that.

Khazrakh
05-24-2015, 11:53 AM
Personally I don't see a problem with the current prizing.

hammer
05-24-2015, 11:56 AM
Ill sign - I think its ridiculously high -

Really 100k gold to unlock a playset of cards like windborn acolyte alternate arts at current gold ratio that 12-14$ to pimp a playset of a common, hardly played card. Crazy.... 2 x Common at 8k for the playset fair enough.

The cost to unlock everything in the game right now as playsets 10.5 Million gold aka $1300 on top of the card prices.

AA cards already cost way more and are chase this just turns me off extended art and alternate altogether.

Most people buy AA for the bling or for completion now each playset comes with an additional 12$ tax :(

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 12:37 PM
It really doesn't matter how many copies exist to most people. :p


Tell that to the Gralk / XI price jump that coincided with the release of these numbers

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 12:41 PM
Ill sign - I think its ridiculously high -

Really 100k gold to unlock a playset of cards like windborn acolyte alternate arts at current gold ratio that 12-14$ to pimp a playset of a common, hardly played card. Crazy.... 2 x Common at 8k for the playset fair enough.

The cost to unlock everything in the game right now as playsets 10.5 Million gold aka $1300 on top of the card prices.

AA cards already cost way more and are chase this just turns me off extended art and alternate altogether.

Most people buy AA for the bling or for completion now each playset comes with an additional 12$ tax :(

If you have to have everything right now, yes. But this is meant to be a never ending journey as more gold sinks enter the game with campaign.

Hex's goal here is 2 fold. (1) Keep gold relevant even after some has farmed everything that isn't EA and (2) Replayablitiy with players goals to achieve something. Aka this is meant to take a long time, over time.

Add in there will be dust drops in PvE and chests may contain dust. I do not see an issue here.

The previous process would have required cards to do "X" in a game and I'd gladly use 100k gold to make AA Acolytes become EA than have to have each card deal 100 damage (card backs) and force decks to use them to make them happen.

Plus EA is a cosmetic thing, much like AA and I see no issue if it costs a premium to make it happen.

Gwaer
05-24-2015, 12:48 PM
Meh, as I've said a few times. I'm not in favor of making EA'S difficult to get. The art extension it provides is more immersive, the cards just look and feel better to play with. So I don't care for this petition because it doesn't really fix what I find wrong with the move to make this the chase feature rather than foils. And if this is the easiest to unlock feature then that's quite troubling to me considering the benevolent benefactor of the entire community is currently having to beg to buy up sufficient gold to unlock his playset. If that's the level of rarity we're talking about I'm very much against it. Which is a shame. I can see the benefits of this move. I just don't like EA'S as the feature of all the other possible features to be locked behind such an oppressive pay wall.

Let me just add, this feature doesn't need to be future proofed, EA unlocking can take trivial amounts of gold in the future. There will be more sinks added that are good features to make difficult to obtain, foils or animated cards for example could easily go for more than these are currently priced at. Even at 1/10th the gold requirement it would still be a substantial investment to unlock a playset of EA'S every time a new set is released at the current gold rarity. And as more features are made that aren't just removing a text box become available they can be more expensive.

Xenavire
05-24-2015, 12:52 PM
Tell that to the Gralk / XI price jump that coincided with the release of these numbers

I said most people - the people playing the AH and actually selling the AA's tend to be very good players who are keen to make a profit. So far I have earned or traded for all the AA's I have, and the number out there doesn't bother me in the slightest, and I am betting that a lot of the playerbase will think the same - get what you can get and not worry about how many copies exist.

There are people who exist who are the complete opposite though, like KG - he has a problem and needs therapy. His AA count is insane!

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 12:56 PM
I said most people - the people playing the AH and actually selling the AA's tend to be very good players who are keen to make a profit. So far I have earned or traded for all the AA's I have, and the number out there doesn't bother me in the slightest, and I am betting that a lot of the playerbase will think the same - get what you can get and not worry about how many copies exist.

There are people who exist who are the complete opposite though, like KG - he has a problem and needs therapy. His AA count is insane!

Well, since said numbers directly effect the price of the cards, then I would say they matter to 100% of people buying AA, even if they don't know it matters. But anyways, sorry for derail, carry on with petition.

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 12:57 PM
Meh, as I've said a few times. I'm not in favor of making EA'S difficult to get. The art extension it provides is more immersive, the cards just look and feel better to play with. So I don't care for this petition because it doesn't really fix what I find wrong with the move to make this the chase feature rather than foils. And if this is the easiest to unlock feature then that's quite troubling to me considering the benevolent benefactor of the entire community is currently having to beg to buy up sufficient gold to unlock his playset. If that's the level of rarity we're talking about I'm very much against it. Which is a shame. I can see the benefits of this move. I just don't like EA'S as the feature of all the other possible features to be locked behind such an oppressive pay wall.

EA's were originally going to be behind an achievement wall, and if you remember the pack raptor double back
Example requirements were "This card creates 100 raptors" "something something" "Win 10 tournaments with this card in your deck".

With this, casual players or PvE players could never unlock it, on top of cards not used for meta decks. Because remember only client Aida tournaments count and not the five shards or whatever player tournaments happen.

Doing gold makes it more accessible to the entire player base especially with dust drops and possible instead chests. And it could ve considered easier this way, just pricy. Keeping gold relevant for all players for healthy community and allowing everyone to unlock it aka gold sink. Plus keeping it at these prices means there will be a lot of carrots on sticks for many collects to keep aiming for.

Overall I am behind this decision 100%.

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 12:58 PM
I said most people - the people playing the AH and actually selling the AA's tend to be very good players who are keen to make a profit. So far I have earned or traded for all the AA's I have, and the number out there doesn't bother me in the slightest, and I am betting that a lot of the playerbase will think the same - get what you can get and not worry about how many copies exist.

There are people who exist who are the complete opposite though, like KG - he has a problem and needs therapy. His AA count is insane!


It's okay, I have 6 princesses that KG will never get his grubby hands on.

Gwaer
05-24-2015, 12:59 PM
@diesbudt - And I'd have been just as likely to try to get them to change those achievements to minimize the time investment to unlock EA's if that feature launched as suggested in the kickstarter. Once again to around 1/10th the difficulty of 5 rather than 50. This would be an excellent entry level feature to keep people busy with easy achievements. Now that I can't have that conversation since the system has changed I'm having it now with the gold prices.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 01:01 PM
EA's were originally going to be behind an achievement wall, and if you remember the pack raptor double back
Example requirements were "This card creates 100 raptors" "something something" "Win 10 tournaments with this card in your deck".

With this, casual players or PvE players could never unlock it, on top of cards not used for meta decks. Because remember only client Aida tournaments count and not the five shards or whatever player tournaments happen.

Doing gold makes it more accessible to the entire player base especially with dust drops and possible instead chests. And it could ve considered easier this way, just pricy. Keeping gold relevant for all players for healthy community and allowing everyone to unlock it aka gold sink. Plus keeping it at these prices means there will be a lot of carrots on sticks for many collects to keep aiming for.

Overall I am behind this decision 100%.

Achievements could have 100% been done in a manner where players could have the choice of playing their preferred playstyle to unlock. It went from perceived lopsidedness in the PvP player favor, to complete lopsidedness in favor of the PvE player.

Overall I am behind this decision 27.3%

Xenavire
05-24-2015, 01:08 PM
Well, since said numbers directly effect the price of the cards, then I would say they matter to 100% of people buying AA, even if they don't know it matters. But anyways, sorry for derail, carry on with petition.

True, but AA sales are mostly supply/demand. There is the same amount of supply for AA Theorycrafter and CMK, so it certainly isn't the supply dictating thst price. The only reason Xentoth/Gralk jumped was because the sellers saw the numbers, and an opportunity. The numbers would have trended there eventually anyway too.

And yeah, probably a good time to stop derailing the thread.

On-topic: I like the idea. I like the cost of common up to legendary. But the AA's are no better than their counterparts, and I don't see why unique art should see such an insane tax. The legendary price really should be the ceiling, as 40k gold is still quite a large amount to ask for something purely cosmetic.

I mean, the AA's already have an inherent value to them, and just throwing gold at it doesn't make it feel more special (being an AA dwarfs the special quality of the EA.) I just feel like the markup is a punishment for working harder than others (or paying a premium).

If the AA's could be even 15 k it wouldn't feel so bad.

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 01:17 PM
Achievements could have 100% been done in a manner where players could have the choice of playing their preferred playstyle to unlock. It went from perceived lopsidedness in the PvP player favor, to complete lopsidedness in favor of the PvE player.

Overall I am behind this decision 27.3%

Not true. Before it was pvp cards aimed at pvp players.

Now it favors PvE play but not near that level as dust may drop in chests and you can sell pvp stuff for gold. PvE can't sell stuff for tournament pvp wins. So they had no chance before.

poizonous
05-24-2015, 01:20 PM
I agree with OP, AA's should not cost so much, AA's should cost double of the specific cards rarity. I mean King Gabriel would probably have to spend somewhere along the lines of 8 million gold to EA all his ASC's and DSC's

Xenavire
05-24-2015, 01:21 PM
Not true. Before it was pvp cards aimed at pvp players.

Now it favors PvE play but not near that level as dust may drop in chests and you can sell pvp stuff for gold. PvE can't sell stuff for tournament pvp wins. So they had no chance before.

Why do people keep saying EA was for PvP only? The devs said that the achievements would have likely included PvE achievements.

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 01:21 PM
@diesbudt - And I'd have been just as likely to try to get them to change those achievements to minimize the time investment to unlock EA's if that feature launched as suggested in the kickstarter. Once again to around 1/10th the difficulty of 5 rather than 50. This would be an excellent entry level feature to keep people busy with easy achievements. Now that I can't have that conversation since the system has changed I'm having it now with the gold prices.

I figured. But I'm sure the point is that no one ever gets each and every card with 4 copies EA. With my business understanding it is meant to be a perpetual chase never ending for 99% of the player base. (Anyone not willing to spend thousands of money in good deals - aka Colin)

Which is fine because it is purely cosmetic, and cosmetic should be the hardest chase in a game as it doesn't effect game mechanics for for play. Plus for all we know dust could drop fairly often and/or each chest could have dust + it's rewards. Until then we can't adequately determine the true difficulty of getting EAs. But overall I think these prices are fair for what their gold are.

magic_gazz
05-24-2015, 01:21 PM
Going to say no to this.

The price for making AA cards EA just means that when you see them they will be al the more special.

Yoss
05-24-2015, 01:22 PM
I do not sign this petition. There must always be a carrot so prices have to be a bit high. I think the price is right.

This.

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 01:22 PM
Why do people keep saying EA was for PvP only? The devs said that the achievements would have likely included PvE achievements.

Pvp card example backs during kickstarter had achievements such as "Win 10 tournaments with this card in your deck"

Tournament is PvP.

PvE cards would have required whatever PvE equivalent.

Kami
05-24-2015, 01:24 PM
Pvp card example backs during kickstarter had achievements such as "Win 10 tournaments with this card in your deck"

Tournament is PvP.

PvE cards would have required whatever PvE equivalent.

They've never stated there would not be PvE tournaments either. Just sayin'.

Gwaer
05-24-2015, 01:25 PM
There will be tons of cosmetic things in the future no one can get all of. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a thing that is still a gold sink that pretty much everyone can maintain a collection of.

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 01:26 PM
They've never stated there would not be PvE tournaments either. Just sayin'.

While that is a fair point, I doubt we will see anything called a tournament in PvE. As a paid tournament against players even using the Wild West / PvE format would still be "pvp"

But again you are right who knows if they wouldn't add some form of PvE tournament.

Xenavire
05-24-2015, 01:37 PM
Going to say no to this.

The price for making AA cards EA just means that when you see them they will be al the more special.

With finite supply, throwing gold at them won't ever make them more special (it just shows you had some gold.) Theoretically there could be a day where every AA of a certain card has been EA'd (not something that is likely for any non-AA card.) So why make the cost higher by so much? Let it be high but not insane.

Achievements is where an AA can gain more 'special'. The EA should be priced to be reasonable.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 01:42 PM
Not true. Before it was pvp cards aimed at pvp players.

Now it favors PvE play but not near that level as dust may drop in chests and you can sell pvp stuff for gold. PvE can't sell stuff for tournament pvp wins. So they had no chance before.

I said it 100% could have been done with both PvP and PvE players. This would involve either changing that particular achievement to something else, or implementing PvE tourneys.

NaryaDL0re
05-24-2015, 02:55 PM
I d be happy with "twice the cost of the original rarity" ... /signed

RCDv57
05-24-2015, 02:57 PM
With finite supply, throwing gold at them won't ever make them more special (it just shows you had some gold.) Theoretically there could be a day where every AA of a certain card has been EA'd (not something that is likely for any non-AA card.) So why make the cost higher by so much? Let it be high but not insane.

Achievements is where an AA can gain more 'special'. The EA should be priced to be reasonable.

So a full playset of EAA Babi yeti isn't special?

TOOT
05-24-2015, 03:27 PM
I like it the way it is.

I like how everyone can't get/complete everything so easily.

You actually have to make decisions regarding rolling chests, or upgrading art etc. If everyone could do everything, it would lose the prestige of all these things individually.

Thrawn
05-24-2015, 03:42 PM
I'm seeing this the same way I see people complaining that set release is too fast for collecting. I don't feel it's intended for you to just easily EA every single promo and card you own. It would be worthless and nothing special if it was cheap to just turn every single card you own into EA. Millions of gold to do a set or 100k to do a single play set of promo cards seems just fine to me. If someone thinks 25k is too expensive to EA an Windborn Acolyte the solution already exists, don't EA your Windborn Acolyte then.

Fyren
05-24-2015, 03:50 PM
I really don't think the sinks and their costs are the problem; it's the lack of faucets, and that the one extant faucet has gotten very old. Shortly after we get more and more varied faucets, and thus more fun ways to acquire gold, this will be a non-issue.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 03:52 PM
I'm seeing this the same way I see people complaining that set release is too fast for collecting. I don't feel it's intended for you to just easily EA every single promo and card you own. It would be worthless and nothing special if it was cheap to just turn every single card you own into EA. Millions of gold to do a set or 100k to do a single play set of promo cards seems just fine to me. If someone thinks 25k is too expensive to EA an Windborn Acolyte the solution already exists, don't EA your Windborn Acolyte then.

Just to be clear, gold / stardust for EA is not exactly a "harder" method to EA your decks. But it is certainly more boring (for many), and more expensive.

wolzarg
05-24-2015, 04:53 PM
Previously i would have been all for this but with the announcement of dusts i don't know maybe not making it overly easy to EA those common AA should be a thing. The rarity disparity still is not something i like but double is nothing at common. Id rather see them bumped one.
Common AA = uncommon dust
Uncommon AA = Rare dust
Rare AA = legend dust
Legend AA = Rainbowpoop dust

I still feel like they are fairly set on their idea and that voicing our opinions isn't going to change the system any more than those lets change the shuffler threads. But its unlikely to hurt and if good ideas are given to them that's a plus.

Oroniss
05-24-2015, 05:40 PM
I'm fine with the current price points, including the EA.

I'm sure someone at CZE has run the numbers and figured out that based on x players running PvE for y hours per week, this will work out to z% of cards EAd over time. If it turns out to be too much higher or lower than what they want they can always adjust the drop rate of the stardust.

I agree there needs to be simple "achievements" players can work for, but I don't think this has to be associated with EAs. As probably the single biggest change to card appearance I'm happy with EA being on the slower side to unlock.

I do totally agree about the need for a wider variety of gold faucets though, so it's a good thing that is the next big patch after set 3 lands.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 05:44 PM
As probably the single biggest change to card appearance I'm happy with EA being on the slower side to unlock.

It is actually not slower to unlock with gold, except maybe for AA cards. Commons and Uncommons are chump change basically. If it were achievement based the commons and uncommons would likely take longer to unlock than the gold method.

Gwaer
05-24-2015, 07:43 PM
It is actually not slower to unlock with gold, except maybe for AA cards. Commons and Uncommons are chump change basically. If it were achievement based the commons and uncommons would likely take longer to unlock than the gold method.

That depends entirely on the achievements. They can tune them to be as easy or difficult as they want in both systems.

ossuary
05-24-2015, 07:43 PM
I still think this is the wrong unlockable to be behind a paywall. But if it has to be this one, I definitely agree that AA EA prices are stupid (pay the same price to EA windbourne acolyte as CMK? ridiculous). Make it cost 2 stardust of the AA's base rarity instead of a flat 25K gold "promo" stardust. That just seems way cleaner and smarter.

israel.kendall
05-24-2015, 08:09 PM
That depends entirely on the achievements. They can tune them to be as easy or difficult as they want in both systems.

I'm simply basing my statement on the examples we were given. They did not seem to be things that could be completed in under an hour. Also Chark I think it was who commented about how difficult achievements would be. You are just stating that "anything is possible", which I guess is true also.

Gwaer
05-24-2015, 08:39 PM
As many people like to point out. A lot has changed since the kickstarter. And also as I said it's a conversation I'd intended to have when it came up. It just came up in a very different form. People keep saying the EA'S are just cosmetic similar to sleeves. That's true. They'll also be just cosmetic similar to foils, animations, stickers, special borders, different card frames, literally anything else you can imagine for a cosmetic change. Doesn't mean some of those things shouldn't be unlock able once like a deck sleeve that changes the shape of your cards rather than an individual card, or changes the front of the card as well as the back in some way. Also doesn't mean some of those changes shouldn't be more or less accessible than others. My point is no cosmetic change will ever have as little overhead as EA'S all of the assets already exist. The art already covers the entire card. This is the feature most available to fill that niche.

Chark is a hammer and the gold economy is his board, I think he does a great job with it. I think this is a feature that they have available. And it looks awfully like a nail to accomplish a thing. I just don't think a nail now should be used when a better nail will be along later. Much of what they want to accomplish could be accomplished with the current player base and gold faucets at a much lower level, and then just have the EA rise in how common it is after the game has more people/ gold faucets. Though even then in 10 sets a new player might come along and want to EA all previous sets as well as sets going forward. That should be feasible with an cosmetic change, I don't think it should be foils or animation. EA just makes better sense.

Even though I'm certain it won't change at this point. They're pushing it in the next patch and aren't likely to go back to the drawing board at this stage, I just hope the discussion can ar least drive stardust to more lenient drop rates than they might have started at.

Hex has made me happy fairly consistently. Only a couple of things I really didn't like, this and the pass priority changes. They're in very little danger of losing my business. I just hope they have plans for a casual hook that this could have been sooner rather than later as a lot of my friends have had difficulty maintaining the same kind of interest I have. Being able to earn money by exchanging gold us one thing, being hooked into working towards something us also a powerful motivator, and we need both to exist eventually.

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 08:48 PM
As many people like to point out. A lot has changed since the kickstarter. And also as I said it's a conversation I'd intended to have when it came up. It just came up in a very different form. People keep saying the EA'S are just cosmetic similar to sleeves. That's true. They'll also be just cosmetic similar to foils, animations, stickers, special borders, different card frames, literally anything else you can imagine for a cosmetic change. Doesn't mean some of those things shouldn't be unlock able once like a deck sleeve that changes the shape of your cards rather than an individual card, or changes the front of the card as well as the back in some way. Also doesn't mean some of those changes shouldn't be more or less accessible than others. My point is no cosmetic change will ever have as little overhead as EA'S all of the assets already exist. The art already covers the entire card. This is the feature most available to fill that niche.

Chark is a hammer and the gold economy is his board, I think he does a great job with it. I think this is a feature that they have available. And it looks awfully like a nail to accomplish a thing. I just don't think a nail now should be used when a better nail will be along later. Much of what they want to accomplish could be accomplished with the current player base and gold faucets at a much lower level, and then just have the EA rise in how common it is after the game has more people/ gold faucets. Though even then in 10 sets a new player might come along and want to EA all previous sets as well as sets going forward. That should be feasible with an cosmetic change, I don't think it should be foils or animation. EA just makes better sense.

Even though I'm certain it won't change at this point. They're pushing it in the next patch and aren't likely to go back to the drawing board at this stage, I just hope the discussion can ar least drive stardust to more lenient drop rates than they might have started at.

Hex has made me happy fairly consistently. Only a couple of things I really didn't like, this and the pass priority changes. They're in very little danger of losing my business. I just hope they have plans for a casual hook that this could have been sooner rather than later as a lot of my friends have had difficulty maintaining the same kind of interest I have. Being able to warn money by exchanging gold us one thing, being hooked into working towards something us also a powerful motivator, and we need both to exist eventually.

PvE is the casual hook...

None of this stuff is ment to be obtained fast. Since the change to gold it allows more casual players to slowly get some EA (if they wish). With achievements like originally stated, which would have basically required some PVE and/or tournament participation with the cards wanted to be EA (Means running sub-optimal decks to get some cards the achievements).

The point is, with it being gold, anybody can earn it, either trading / selling for gold or earning it without having to pay $$$. It was the best option imo. And it is cosmetic, much like sleeves. People get too caught up in the "I have to be able to obtain everything in a good time frame" mentality which kills online games. As there needs to be things that take A LARGE time investment to obtain and things that take A LARGE skill investment to obtain.

Much like all the shard, RNG, dead horse thread etcs, if you are not happy, present an alternative that meets the points for what they are doing.

1) Large timesink that any player can earn with time invested, thus making it a multi-hundred hour journey to complete.
2) Is not exploitable via casual matches
3) Is not just PVP or PVE based.

Gwaer
05-24-2015, 09:08 PM
I disagree with you about pve being the casual hook. PVE is a major feature of the game, yes. But it's not the normal 'casual' tcg player in my circles hook. They're all collectors of one stripe or another and for the most part enjoy the pvp side better. As far as I know they've all invested an amount of money into the game. But no, PVE is not the hook I'm talking about. There's also a finite amount of slowly obtaining EA that just ticks over to not interesting. If they intend 1% of players to be able to EA an entire playset before the next set releases, that is not a good design for the earliest and what should be most prevalent card alteration.

About earning gold, as chark said, this feature is "future proofed" it is not tuned to the current amount of gold people can earn, so no not anyone can earn the requisite amounts, there also just may not be enough free gold in the system to even buy for anyone but the wealthiest of people. It's very possible that this move will make gold so sought after that the gold market actually seizes up, and people just start hoarding, knowing they will need gold eventually, but not when, and not risking it being even more rare and expensive at the time they want to use it. This doesn't have a large skill or time investment, it has an impossible one. playing the game for 8 hours a day every day at maximum efficiency in its current state doesn't get you enough gold to EA a playset before the next set releases.

Honestly, In this instance I disagree with what they're doing and don't want to replace it with an alternative. I think it will be healthier for the game in the now with the current faucets to have more obtainable goals, that would also interest new players, and turn the screws to us in the future with a different feature, like foils or literally anything else.

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 09:18 PM
I disagree with you about pve being the casual hook. PVE is a major feature of the game, yes. But it's not the normal 'casual' tcg player in my circles hook. They're all collectors of one stripe or another and for the most part enjoy the pvp side better. As far as I know they've all invested an amount of money into the game. But no, PVE is not the hook I'm talking about. There's also a finite amount of slowly obtaining EA that just ticks over to not interesting. If they intend 1% of players to be able to EA an entire playset before the next set releases, that is not a good design for the earliest and what should be most prevalent card alteration.

About earning gold, as chark said, this feature is "future proofed" it is not tuned to the current amount of gold people can earn, so no not anyone can earn the requisite amounts, there also just may not be enough free gold in the system to even buy for anyone but the wealthiest of people. It's very possible that this move will make gold so sought after that the gold market actually seizes up, and people just start hoarding, knowing they will need gold eventually, but not when, and not risking it being even more rare and expensive at the time they want to use it. This doesn't have a large skill or time investment, it has an impossible one. playing the game for 8 hours a day every day at maximum efficiency in its current state doesn't get you enough gold to EA a playset before the next set releases.

Honestly, In this instance I disagree with what they're doing and don't want to replace it with an alternative. I think it will be healthier for the game in the now with the current faucets to have more obtainable goals, that would also interest new players, and turn the screws to us in the future with a different feature, like foils or literally anything else.

Impossible?

2:1 odds by day 1 colin has 4 of each. He is already working towards it.

It is ment to be a consistent carrot. Not really something they expect people to collect them all. More like collect the ones you want or play with. If you wish to go for the homerun ball, then its there. But yes this is a large time investment. The large skill investment with ladder play and the rankings is yet to come.

Also PvE is the casual hook. It may not be considered casual in your circle of friends, but that is one of PVEs intentions. As F2P usually caters more to casual players. Because all casual means is you can still do stuff/earn stuff playing maybe an hour here or there. Say in 1 hour I run half a dungeon and save. Next day I run 1 more hour and finish said dungeon. 1-2 dust drops and I earn say 10k gold. (Basing estimate off Arena)

That is 1-3 EA right there. Not counting other things that can be rewarded and/or sold and bought. It may seem really hard, but as Chark said we have not seen the full gold faucet's and for all we know this could become easier than we imagine.

And when it comes to currency it is better to build a Dam before throwing water at it. The other way around the "market" can flood the game hard which could damage the economy for months after the Dam is built.

wolzarg
05-24-2015, 09:18 PM
I don't think EA for a playset on your own was ever considered feasible be it by gold or achievements honestly. At least this way you cut out the middle man interaction as you don't have to wait for all those unplayable cards to be EA'd by someone else so you can buy it as you now just buy the gold/dust and pick what cards you want.

I could be wrong and i personally also liked the idea of achivements tied to EA more than this implementation but its a minor evil in my book after they told us about the dusts being a drop.

Gwaer
05-24-2015, 09:23 PM
Yes wolzarg, that would have been a complaint of mine if it were released with ridiculous achievement requirements as well, my argument is that A single cosmetic option should be feasible for a large percentage of the population to earn on their own if so desired, and that cosmetic option should be EA's, because it has the lowest overhead, and most potential to improve the immersion of the game as a whole. It's also fine to disagree with that, as I said I there is no world in which this changes at this point in time, and that's a shame. I just want someone at HXE to hear my thoughts on the matter, and hopefully take them into account in the future. And since no one at HXE is actually discussing this topic at the moment I'm letting others be my sounding board.

Also, diesbudt, you're intentionally conflating my arguments. I never said it would be impossible for anyone to ever have playsets completely EA'd, I know for a fact colin will. I said it was impossible to earn the requisite amounts by farming. The rest of that post is not much better, If you've no intention of debating the topic on the merits of one another points I'm happy to let you talk to yourself, and I'll just discuss it with others.

wolzarg
05-24-2015, 09:25 PM
Well i fully agree on that point as i feel EA should be the carrot and foil and the like should be the swag factor not the other way around or both be wallet pushed.

Diesbudt
05-24-2015, 09:40 PM
Yes wolzarg, that would have been a complaint of mine if it were released with ridiculous achievement requirements as well, my argument is that A single cosmetic option should be feasible for a large percentage of the population to earn on their own if so desired, and that cosmetic option should be EA's, because it has the lowest overhead, and most potential to improve the immersion of the game as a whole.

Also, diesbudt, you're intentionally conflating my arguments. I never said it would be impossible for anyone to ever have playsets completely EA'd, I know for a fact colin will. I said it was impossible to earn the requisite amounts by farming. The rest of that post is not much better, If you've no intention of debating the topic on the merits of one another points I'm happy to let you talk to yourself, and I'll just discuss it with others.

The rest of my post makes absolute sense, you just do not have a good rebuttle thus are not doing so.
-PvE is a casual hook and the biggest one at that because it will be one of two "primary" ways to play the game, and because it is F2P and you can pace yourself (makes sense)
-Dust will drop in PvE. Instant EA. (Makes sense).
-PvE also gives gold that can buy EA (Also makes sense).
-Dungeons may have many more drops/dust chances (Makes sense).
-Dam Analogy was an analogy to explain that if they put the gold facuet on first, it would hurt the community more than putting a lot of high gold options out especially all that gold people earned in early PvP tournaments prior to having faster gold generation (makes sense)

And then there is this

Your exact words: "This doesn't have a large skill or time investment, it has an impossible one"

All I did was show you how that is incorrect, because if any 1 person can do it, it is not impossible. Also, that is Day 1. I have earned over 4 million gold farming and selling in last few months. If I wanted to, I could do it again AND sell extras and pull it off before the "next batch". It is practical and not hard so it is not a skill sink. But it is a time sink and a completely achieveable one only if one puts all the time required to do so and if that is what they want.

However as stated the intent and design of this (and could even be every other cosmetic upgrade down the road) is probably not ment to be completed by a majority of players. However, casuals can part-take in the like as they can get some, of their choice EA through gold. Being a much better option than restricting them with achievements.

And you say you would be against hard achievements as well, however, that is the only true definition of "achievement". Would you like to have a baby yeti do 100 damage to a champion before it becomes an EA. And then repeat for all 4 of them. And achievements will not be earned in proving grounds, at least I hope not, as those are not "official" games. And achievements should be based on official games. Plus PG, even random select, can be gamed. So let us say we make the achievements easier which is where you want them to be. It would still require tournament win(s) and/or certain PvE achievements that may take skill and time casual may not be able to obtain. Turning it to gold is by far the best option to give all players the availability to make EA. Whether they wish to pursue that through PvE or AH (And possibly chests) is up to them.

EA and probably all cosmetic things WILL NOT BE EASY or QUICK. Regardless whether or not it is gold, achievements, or play time or however Hex decides to approach it. That was obvious to me 2 years ago in the kickstarter they planned to always have things to "farm for" or go after. Thus I expect I will never come to a point where I will feel I have no reason to log in as I have everything I can get. I get it is the difficulty and not the gold that you are against, but as I am saying over and over again regardless how they go about it, odds are it was going to be hard and only those that put the time/effort in would be able to pull it all off with the rest of us not doing so.

Gwaer
05-24-2015, 09:53 PM
We're just talking past one another. There's already going to be more in hex than a single person ever could do even if they just gave everyone the extended art for every card for logging into the game the second time. Also. Colin is neither using a large skill or time investment to achieve it. It's very easy to infer what that exact quote your referenced meant "It has an impossible skill/time investment" So a single person having the money to brute force buy things is not relevant to the discussion we were actually having. Furthermore pve will have casual and serious players. So will Pvp. All casual players will not be attracted to EA'S, AA'S Collecting playset, collecting anything ever. Many will be attracted to pve, many won't. There is plenty of room for something being available for everyone. But that's not the direction this decision leads me to believe they're going. Most things should be incredibly rare and difficult to obtain. But I don't think everything should be. You're welcome to disagree. But you're seriously trying to twist this discussion in ways that are unnecessary.

If you insist I must respond in order to not be "unable to respond" Then here you go.

I already told you I disagree about PVE being the casual hook, so you restating that it is, is not really worth debating, we disagree, fine.
I disagree that people shouldn't be able to collect all of something if they want as a jumping off point to collecting the more rare things, especially since there are so many options for cosmetic changes, which I've addressed multiple times.
PVE may drop stardust, but the point of the system is to be a sink, so the dust has to drop low enough that people want to pay gold from the store, or it's not a gold sink
Dams require the potential for water to be flowing through the area before they can be built, the water doesn't get there magically, also a dam is a terrible analogy for a game that you want to be fun the whole time, rather than just after it's fully completed.

I never said hard achievements shouldn't exist I said they shouldn't exist blocking this specific feature.

Also, I never said your post doesn't make sense I said it was just as bad as the conflating my points, because everything you said I'd already addressed specifically, and you added nothing to that discussion, other than confusion about what I'm actually trying to say.

To summarize, I'm not quitting the game over this, I'm just a bit disappointed, because I think it's a huge missed opportunity that they'll come to regret, because it'll be very difficult to fairly change it later, other than to just flood the market with stardust, which seems incredibly suboptimal to function as a sink.

poizonous
05-24-2015, 11:21 PM
For the record, me and Gwaer are seldom on same side of an argument, so its nice to agree with him for once :)

Ertzi
05-25-2015, 12:22 AM
You know what would help the situation? A Stardust dungeon, where the Stardust drops are SIGNIFICANTLY more frequent, and maybe there is not even any other loot available in the entire location. Then the players who value EAs higher can grind this Dungeon, but they would always do it at the expense of other content. Everyone wins, right? Some people could unlock EAs faster, but those who do not care about such things can just skip the place and have fun with other content.

israel.kendall
05-25-2015, 12:27 AM
More ways to get it via PvE is not what I'd like to see. I'd like to see stardust in chests, guaranteed 1 stardust = chest rarity. With stardust prices compared to chest spin prices it makes it more worthwhile to spin chests for upgrades while giving PvP guys an avenue to stardust.

The stardust already lines up with chests and the "promo" dust is even primal colored. Would be a perfect system.

Fyren
05-25-2015, 01:02 AM
More ways to get it via PvE is not what I'd like to see. I'd like to see stardust in chests, guaranteed 1 stardust = chest rarity. With stardust prices compared to chest spin prices it makes it more worthwhile to spin chests for upgrades while giving PvP guys an avenue to stardust.

The stardust already lines up with chests and the "promo" dust is even primal colored. Would be a perfect system.

I actually really like this. If Stardust drops heavily from chests, and, let's face it, spinning chests isn't strictly speaking necessary, then that's way less PvE that PvP-only players have to get involved with; they just have to sell some stuff, and only if they want their AAs unlocked. I'd be fine with that.

szimek
05-25-2015, 04:21 AM
I'm not sure if it was mentioned already, but craft is coming and who knows, maybe dust will drop as a material from destroying cards/equipment BUT it will be probably: common dust from common cards/eq, rare dust from rare cards/eq etc. and that means ... destroying AA cards for AA dust ^^ if that will happen, all Windbourne Acolytes are in mortal danger :P

ossuary
05-25-2015, 04:42 AM
destroying AA cards for AA dust ^^ if that will happen, all Windbourne Acolytes are in mortal danger :P

I'd go from 147 acolytes to 4 the instant crafting was released if that were the case. ;)

PureVapes
05-25-2015, 10:19 AM
... it'll be very difficult to fairly change it later, other than to just flood the market with stardust, which seems incredibly suboptimal to function as a sink.

I'm of the opposite opinion and think that once they have enough gold sinks and like where their economy is at, they can slowly shift the stardust drop rate to decrease the necessity of the stardust store purchases. Stardust is really just an additional variable for them to tweak in the long run, which lets them allow EA to be less difficult/rare than other gold sinks such as store AAs and chest spins and who knows what else.