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Sparrow
05-26-2015, 03:12 AM
How much plat and gold do you think are in the system now? Obviously there are sinks that constantly pull it out, but I'd think the rate in exceeds the rate out by some percentage.

Would 10 million plat be too high? That would be 10,000 players with 1,000 plat.
Could there be 1 billion gold floating in the system right now?

Just curious what people estimate.

superdax
05-26-2015, 07:35 AM
The only thing i can say is

Value of gold went up because there is less (or people are buying it more then selling). For Quantity its pure guess.

Value of Plat is too low. I know people think that 100 plat = 1$ but there are a lot of places where you can buy under that value (even if your not supposed to). i See 60:1 ratio. They need to create a plat sink (Ex. Plat only entry into a super tournament that gives superbe AA :) There must be a lot of plat in the système.

Khazrakh
05-26-2015, 08:04 AM
Since there is no way to ever generate plat other than paying for it there is no need to have anything like a plat sink - plat leaves the system every time you play a tournament, plat leaves the system every time you buy anything on the AH for more than 19p and plat leaves the system every time you buy something from CZE.

Elwinz
05-26-2015, 08:06 AM
every tournament requires plat, not enough? The reason gold is so high is because oeple want to have everything.

Svenn
05-26-2015, 08:13 AM
I know people think that 100 plat = 1$ but there are a lot of places where you can buy under that value (even if your not supposed to). i See 60:1 ratio.
Buying/selling plat like that risks getting your account banned. Report those people if you see them.

MatWith1T
05-26-2015, 08:25 AM
My methodologies as follows:

1) Estimate the number of Hex players
Dota, LoL, NBA2k15, GTA all publish sales/user numbers and fairly accurate estimates for most Steam games are available through SteamSpy. Taking these known/highly probable numbers of customers, and comparing it to each games respective number of Reddit subscribers, there's a range of approx 1%-4% for the Reddit:Total Playerbase ratio. I am personally skewing Hex's ratio to the high end because it is such a new game that there hasn't been enough time for players to 'age out' of the game (ie marked as a player/customer, but has ceased playing). With Hex's 2550 Reddit subscribers and a conservative 4% ratio, my best approximation is 60,000-65,000 Hex players.

( Ideally, the next step would be to estimate the percentage of players who are pay-to-play - this number is incredibly tricky to estimate, as Hex is not a 'true' f2p game - The average for all f2p games is a measly 2-3%, but that seems unlikely for Hex. Unfortunately, whether that number is closer to 10% or 50% is unknowable (to those without access to Hex's data), so we cannot proceed to the next step where we estimate the average plat balance of the average Hex player - did not work out a methodology for this as without a reliable number from the last step this figure is meaningless. )

Instead... we operate under the assumption that the Hex economy shares parallels with the US economy - chiefly, that the wealth is distributed amongst the 1% (whales) and the rest of the population in a similar proportion.

2) If Hex's economy is like the US's (and we can save the political debate that goes along with this for a non-Hex forum), then the 600 'wealthiest' Hex players possess 35% of the platinum.

3) With the spitball estimate that, on average, the 600 wealthiest Hex players each have 10,000 plat ($100) available to spend, then the float for plat would be 17 Million ($170,000)

Notes:
1 - the 10,000 plat per whale average is entirely a 'this number feels good to me' estimate with little rationale because I'm just doing this mental excecise for fun
2- this assumes that plat is held in equal proportion to other assets; that 1% owns 35% of total wealth, which should also include card collections, gold, mercenaries, equipment, etc as a measurement of total wealth. 35% of wealth is not the same as 35% of disposable income, but for the sake of this estimate, it is treated as such.
3- there is no evidence to assume that the US and Hex economies share this trait, but again, this is a for-fun mental exercise, so liberties were taken.

Salverus
05-26-2015, 09:02 AM
although you have clearly put some time into it, i think your numbers are still a bit low.
If we assume that HEX has indeed around 65.000 players (old inactive accounts that still have platinum should maybe be taken into account too?) then 17 million platinum means that the average player has 262 platinum in their account.

Additionally the "whales" have in my opinion far more than 10.000 platinum. Take alone the topic from colin (super whales) where he is buying 7 million gold for 100:1, thats him right there with 70.000 platinum already.
In fact, with some playing around on the auction house even a free player can reach 10.000 platinum. So i think that number should be much higher.

the_artic_one
05-26-2015, 09:03 AM
Buying/selling plat like that risks getting your account banned. Report those people if you see them.

There are a couple ways to get cheaper plat from gameforge without breaking any rules.

MatWith1T
05-26-2015, 09:21 AM
10,000 plat is admittedly a highly conservative number, but Colin is not representative of the Top 1% in aggregate... Warren Buffet earned $12 Billion last year (in net worth gain, not salary), but to be in the '1% Club' in the US you only need an average salary of $171,000 - so even within that subset, the distribution is still highly skewed.

And I lowballed it because the goal was to estimate the floating, unspent plat lying dormant in the Hex economy. You are correct that a free player should be able to obtain 10,000 plat - but it is unlikely that they would not use any of it. It's therefore possible that a high-spending Hex player may have poured $1,000+ into this game, but only keeps an active plat balance of $20-30 (since there is zero barrier to just obtaining more at any point they might actually need additional plat), and I factored that likelihood into my spitball numbers.

So it's probably on the low side, but given the number of assumptions I took in reaching that number, I played it conservative.

(Come drop some knowledge on us, Chark! :) )

Yoss
05-26-2015, 11:48 AM
Buying/selling plat like that risks getting your account banned. Report those people if you see them.

Regardless of what the ToS says, it seems highly unlikely that they'd take action against 3rd party RMT. I never hear about MTGO shutting people down for trading tickets, for example. Letting people have some way to cash out is good for business. I also don't know why you, as a player, would want to "report those people if you see them" since, again, it's good for the player base if we can cash out.

Svenn
05-26-2015, 11:53 AM
Regardless of what the ToS says, it seems highly unlikely that they'd take action against 3rd party RMT. I never hear about MTGO shutting people down for trading tickets, for example. Letting people have some way to cash out is good for business. I also don't know why you, as a player, would want to "report those people if you see them" since, again, it's good for the player base if we can cash out.
We've been explicitly told that buying/selling platinum or gold is a bannable offense. Other RMT is fine. Those of us who try to abide by these things are at something of a disadvantage if other people are doing this and we are not, and no action is being taken to actually stop it.

Yoss
05-26-2015, 12:14 PM
We've been explicitly told that buying/selling platinum or gold is a bannable offense. Other RMT is fine. Those of us who try to abide by these things are at something of a disadvantage if other people are doing this and we are not, and no action is being taken to actually stop it.

And WOTC says the exact same thing about MTGO goods. But guess what? It's completely unenforced. We can go look at plenty of other games too and find similar results. The game companies just need to protect themselves legally; they don't actually want to limit the transactions.

If you do actually go through with reporting someone for RMT, I'd be very interested to hear what response you get.

Khazrakh
05-26-2015, 12:31 PM
And WOTC says the exact same thing about MTGO goods. But guess what? It's completely unenforced. We can go look at plenty of other games too and find similar results. The game companies just need to protect themselves legally; they don't actually want to limit the transactions.

If our collections are ever meant to "have value" you need to able to cash out on them if you want to.
As Yoss says - CZE has to protect themselves so they'll never allow 3rd market trade in their TOS, but the moment they take action against those trades our collections will lose a tremendous amount of their perceived value.

Kramer
05-26-2015, 12:33 PM
We've been explicitly told that buying/selling platinum or gold is a bannable offense. Other RMT is fine. Those of us who try to abide by these things are at something of a disadvantage if other people are doing this and we are not, and no action is being taken to actually stop it.

I absolutely agree with this. I would love to sell platinum (and many have offered), but I never will out of fear of my account getting banned. However, I know others do it, but if I knew their names, I do not believe I would report them.

Sparrow
05-26-2015, 12:51 PM
My methodologies as follows:

1) Estimate the number of Hex players
Dota, LoL, NBA2k15, GTA all publish sales/user numbers and fairly accurate estimates for most Steam games are available through SteamSpy. Taking these known/highly probable numbers of customers, and comparing it to each games respective number of Reddit subscribers, there's a range of approx 1%-4% for the Reddit:Total Playerbase ratio. I am personally skewing Hex's ratio to the high end because it is such a new game that there hasn't been enough time for players to 'age out' of the game (ie marked as a player/customer, but has ceased playing). With Hex's 2550 Reddit subscribers and a conservative 4% ratio, my best approximation is 60,000-65,000 Hex players.

( Ideally, the next step would be to estimate the percentage of players who are pay-to-play - this number is incredibly tricky to estimate, as Hex is not a 'true' f2p game - The average for all f2p games is a measly 2-3%, but that seems unlikely for Hex. Unfortunately, whether that number is closer to 10% or 50% is unknowable (to those without access to Hex's data), so we cannot proceed to the next step where we estimate the average plat balance of the average Hex player - did not work out a methodology for this as without a reliable number from the last step this figure is meaningless. )

Instead... we operate under the assumption that the Hex economy shares parallels with the US economy - chiefly, that the wealth is distributed amongst the 1% (whales) and the rest of the population in a similar proportion.

2) If Hex's economy is like the US's (and we can save the political debate that goes along with this for a non-Hex forum), then the 600 'wealthiest' Hex players possess 35% of the platinum.

3) With the spitball estimate that, on average, the 600 wealthiest Hex players each have 10,000 plat ($100) available to spend, then the float for plat would be 17 Million ($170,000)

Notes:
1 - the 10,000 plat per whale average is entirely a 'this number feels good to me' estimate with little rationale because I'm just doing this mental excecise for fun
2- this assumes that plat is held in equal proportion to other assets; that 1% owns 35% of total wealth, which should also include card collections, gold, mercenaries, equipment, etc as a measurement of total wealth. 35% of wealth is not the same as 35% of disposable income, but for the sake of this estimate, it is treated as such.
3- there is no evidence to assume that the US and Hex economies share this trait, but again, this is a for-fun mental exercise, so liberties were taken.
This is perfect, exactly what I was looking for.

I had been stumped on the calculation of # of accounts, but your rationale seems reasonable.

Also, very elegant assuming a distribution similar to income in the U.S.

I used to love doing these kinds of calculations in Physics.

I'm trying to think of a way to get some data points, beyond the one point of what's in my account, but asking people straight up sounds kind of gauche. Here's the one data point, though: I've spent about $250 on Hex and have had a consistent plat balance between 500 and 1000. My gold balance never gets above 30,000 since I'm still trying to roll my legendary chests.

Nice work, Mat.

P.S. Please move the discussion about whether it's okay to buy/sell plat/gold elsewhere. It's off topic and I'd like to get more input on my OP. Please.

Yoss
05-26-2015, 01:00 PM
I'm pretty sure I skew the average plat-on-hand way up, and Colin much more so.

hex_colin
05-26-2015, 01:08 PM
I'm pretty sure I skew the average plat-on-hand way up, and Colin much more so.

Yup. Given a new set is about to hit, I generally am adding $100 a day so that I can buy a LOT of packs. I'm patiently still waiting for a bigger purchase amount than $100... ;)

Svenn
05-26-2015, 01:12 PM
If our collections are ever meant to "have value" you need to able to cash out on them if you want to.
As Yoss says - CZE has to protect themselves so they'll never allow 3rd market trade in their TOS, but the moment they take action against those trades our collections will lose a tremendous amount of their perceived value.

Yes, our COLLECTIONS are meant to have value. Selling cards and boosters is fine. We've specifically been told that gold/platinum sales is not allowed though. If they are going to specifically call out the sales of this specific thing and then not enforce it, that doesn't make sense. It also puts those of us following the rules at a disadvantage.


Currently we are not banning sales of cards and items externally, but we will not recognize those sales as official and you're fully responsible for any damages incurred. We are, however, not allowing the selling of platinum or gold outside of the game. Anyone caught doing so will have actions taken against their account.
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=39147&p=432814#post432814

Svenn
05-26-2015, 01:20 PM
To be actually on topic here though... I can say that I always keep at least 10k platinum on hand just in case. I've had up to a bit over 20k stashed at once. To properly judge this we'd need solid numbers of active players which we don't really have. And I feel like your average player is not keeping large stashes of platinum, but using it as fast as they get it (whether buying it or trading for it).

Saeijou
05-26-2015, 01:45 PM
i invested 100$ in addition to my perks... and live pretty good with it so far...
i sell my primals in the AH and are at around 4k right now.
3 free drafts a week don't cost anything... an additional draft/seeled once in a while doesnt hurt to much...

currently i don't see the need to have so much plat... but... well... i'm a high backer...

israel.kendall
05-26-2015, 02:55 PM
We've been explicitly told that buying/selling platinum or gold is a bannable offense. Other RMT is fine. Those of us who try to abide by these things are at something of a disadvantage if other people are doing this and we are not, and no action is being taken to actually stop it.

We have actually been explicitly told that buying and selling of cards is a bannable offense. In the ToS both selling cards and plat are on the same level of "legality".

nicosharp
05-26-2015, 03:02 PM
We have actually been explicitly told that buying and selling of cards is a bannable offense. In the ToS both selling cards and plat are on the same level of "legality".

7. No External Transfer or Sale of Virtual Assets. HEX Entertainment does not recognize any purported transfers or sales of event tickets or other virtual assets outside of the HEX Game.
"Does Not Recognize", does not make it a "Bannable Offense"

magic_gazz
05-26-2015, 03:24 PM
My methodologies as follows:

1) Estimate the number of Hex players
Dota, LoL, NBA2k15, GTA all publish sales/user numbers and fairly accurate estimates for most Steam games are available through SteamSpy. Taking these known/highly probable numbers of customers, and comparing it to each games respective number of Reddit subscribers, there's a range of approx 1%-4% for the Reddit:Total Playerbase ratio. I am personally skewing Hex's ratio to the high end because it is such a new game that there hasn't been enough time for players to 'age out' of the game (ie marked as a player/customer, but has ceased playing). With Hex's 2550 Reddit subscribers and a conservative 4% ratio, my best approximation is 60,000-65,000 Hex players.

( Ideally, the next step would be to estimate the percentage of players who are pay-to-play - this number is incredibly tricky to estimate, as Hex is not a 'true' f2p game - The average for all f2p games is a measly 2-3%, but that seems unlikely for Hex. Unfortunately, whether that number is closer to 10% or 50% is unknowable (to those without access to Hex's data), so we cannot proceed to the next step where we estimate the average plat balance of the average Hex player - did not work out a methodology for this as without a reliable number from the last step this figure is meaningless. )

Instead... we operate under the assumption that the Hex economy shares parallels with the US economy - chiefly, that the wealth is distributed amongst the 1% (whales) and the rest of the population in a similar proportion.

2) If Hex's economy is like the US's (and we can save the political debate that goes along with this for a non-Hex forum), then the 600 'wealthiest' Hex players possess 35% of the platinum.

3) With the spitball estimate that, on average, the 600 wealthiest Hex players each have 10,000 plat ($100) available to spend, then the float for plat would be 17 Million ($170,000)

Notes:
1 - the 10,000 plat per whale average is entirely a 'this number feels good to me' estimate with little rationale because I'm just doing this mental excecise for fun
2- this assumes that plat is held in equal proportion to other assets; that 1% owns 35% of total wealth, which should also include card collections, gold, mercenaries, equipment, etc as a measurement of total wealth. 35% of wealth is not the same as 35% of disposable income, but for the sake of this estimate, it is treated as such.
3- there is no evidence to assume that the US and Hex economies share this trait, but again, this is a for-fun mental exercise, so liberties were taken.

I like the thought process behind this, no idea how close it is to correct. I would be shocked if I was in the 1% though.

stiii
05-26-2015, 03:36 PM
Yup. Given a new set is about to hit, I generally am adding $100 a day so that I can buy a LOT of packs. I'm patiently still waiting for a bigger purchase amount than $100... ;)

It is somewhat unreal you have this problem on many levels.

israel.kendall
05-26-2015, 03:41 PM
7. No External Transfer or Sale of Virtual Assets. HEX Entertainment does not recognize any purported transfers or sales of event tickets or other virtual assets outside of the HEX Game.
"Does Not Recognize", does not make it a "Bannable Offense"

This one:

6. No Exploitation for Commercial Purposes. You agree that you will not exploit any part of the HEX Game for commercial purposes, including (a) performing in-game services in exchange for payment outside the HEX Game, or (b) for gathering in-game currency, items or resources for sale outside the HEX Game.

nicosharp
05-26-2015, 04:46 PM
I think that can still be loosely argued that one is not "exploiting" Hex for Commercial purposes.
Anyways, as many of us know, there are already sites that sell goods for cash. There are already people trading currency in some forms. The "Commercial Purpose" for third party "vendors" is evident. However, there may be some argument that individual users of the product are not exploiting it, if the product is being used for their gaming pleasure, yet transactions are done externally to subsidize their play.

I'm not a lawyer, but previous talk of third-party trade being condoned makes me think this part of the TOS was carefully worded to be a bit lenient.

israel.kendall
05-26-2015, 04:54 PM
I think that can still be loosely argued that one is not "exploiting" Hex for Commercial purposes.
Anyways, as many of us know, there are already sites that sell goods for cash. There are already people trading currency in some forms. The "Commercial Purpose" for third party "vendors" is evident. However, there may be some argument that individual users of the product are not exploiting it, if the product is being used for their gaming pleasure, yet transactions are done externally to subsidize their play.

I'm not a lawyer, but previous talk of third-party trade being condoned makes me think this part of the TOS was carefully worded to be a bit lenient.

My point is that both selling currency and selling cards/items are covered in the exact same line. My original reply was to someone stating that selling cards is OK but selling plat is not. My point is that they are either equally allowed by or equally against the ToS as they are covered in the same language.

TOOT
05-26-2015, 04:57 PM
3rd party websites that sell individual cards do not sell platinum or gold.

I am positive CZE is aware of these sites, and there is a reason they are only selling cards or boosters and not platinum or gold.

israel.kendall
05-26-2015, 05:01 PM
3rd party websites that sell individual cards do not sell platinum or gold.

I am positive CZE is aware of these sites, and there is a reason they are only selling cards or boosters and not platinum or gold.

And the reason is?

Yoss
05-26-2015, 05:13 PM
3rd party websites that sell individual cards do not sell platinum or gold.

I am positive CZE is aware of these sites, and there is a reason they are only selling cards or boosters and not platinum or gold.

I know at least one place where one can trade anything at all that's Hex related, not just cards and packs.

Zophie
05-26-2015, 05:22 PM
... I feel like your average player is not keeping large stashes of platinum, but using it as fast as they get it (whether buying it or trading for it).

This is me, I only keep a small amount of plat on hand usually, enough to pay for a few draft tickets periodically. As we get closer to a Set launch though I might drop a chunk of cash in there to buy up a bunch of the new packs, but that plat only sits there until the set releases. If I ever have an excess of plat I always spend it on packs and rarely have anything on hand unless it's earmarked for something specific.

Also side note, I have never spent more than 500 plat on a single card in the AH, though I have sold a few extras for much more. Any earnings I made went right back into buying more packs.

TOOT
05-26-2015, 05:41 PM
And the reason is?

The reason is CZE ok with sites selling cards and boosters but not currency. Surely Zubrin, Bootlace, Neo, and other prominent community members who have had their hand in these sites have had some communication with CZE over what is ok and what isn't.

You think it's just a coincidence none of these sites offer currency, but everything else?

Yoss,

The site I assume you are talking about doesn't have an actual storefront that you can buy singles or currency from directly, does it?

Yoss
05-26-2015, 05:44 PM
Yoss,

The site I assume you are talking about doesn't have an actual storefront that you can buy singles or currency from directly, does it?
It's a peer to peer site, not a store.

israel.kendall
05-26-2015, 05:48 PM
The reason is CZE ok with sites selling cards and boosters but not currency. Surely Zubrin, Bootlace, Neo, and other prominent community members who have had their hand in these sites have had some communication with CZE over what is ok and what isn't.

You think it's just a coincidence none of these sites offer currency, but everything else?

Yoss,

The site I assume you are talking about doesn't have an actual storefront that you can buy singles or currency from directly, does it?

This is not what the legal document states. So on one hand we have a ToS, and on the other we have secret memo to the guys.

Yoss
05-26-2015, 05:54 PM
It is somewhat unreal you have this problem on many levels.

In a paper TCG, there are lots of players (and stores, for that matter) who buy hundreds of boosters on pre-order so they can rip packs all day on release. I can't speak for Colin, but perhaps he's of that type.

TOOT
05-26-2015, 06:00 PM
I took the comment as it is stupid that the guy can't buy more than $100 a day. Surely one of your top X customers, that is actually restricted from trying to give your company even more money would be considered a problem by most. :)

hex_colin
05-26-2015, 06:21 PM
In a paper TCG, there are lots of players (and stores, for that matter) who buy hundreds of boosters on pre-order so they can rip packs all day on release. I can't speak for Colin, but perhaps he's of that type.

Mostly to get common chests to roll for sleeves. :)

vulture27
05-26-2015, 06:34 PM
10,000 plat is admittedly a highly conservative number, but Colin is not representative of the Top 1% in aggregate...

Going to agree this is a highly conservative number. I've seen many streamers carrying more than that, including one with over 100K (I think it was ArmiesofMordor, but I could be remembering wrong). My own stash waiting for set 3 would make me 6 whales by that estimate.

hex_colin
05-26-2015, 06:36 PM
Going to agree this is a highly conservative number. I've seen many streamers carrying more than that, including one with over 100K (I think it was ArmiesofMordor, but I could be remembering wrong). My own stash waiting for set 3 would make me 6 whales by that estimate.

Yeah, if I had to guess, I'd expect that there was a lot more platinum laying around than the math in this thread.

wolzarg
05-27-2015, 02:16 AM
Since i feel the chance of me being called out on "bragging" has passed i want to point out that i have since i started going infinite carried between 20-40k plat and i wouldn't consider my self a whale or even a dolphin.

FlyingMeatchip
05-27-2015, 02:59 AM
i think on avg players will have a hundred in plat. 'i've seen a streamer with about $1500 in plat.

Sparrow
05-27-2015, 03:13 AM
Yeah, if I had to guess, I'd expect that there was a lot more platinum laying around than the math in this thread.
Do you think it's higher by a factor of 10? So, 100 million plat floating in game? If so, that would be pretty cool to think there's $1 million "unspent" dollars in the system.

NaryaDL0re
05-27-2015, 04:34 AM
I concur with the notion of a lot more floating around.
Platinum is the most stable form of value currently in the game
and most likely will be (given exchange into $).

So everyone who is currently not speculating.
ie. sitting on millions of gold
ie. sitting on dozens of AA CMK
ie. etc etc

but also already has everything in the game they want.

Will have a lot more than 10K platinum on their account.

And just taking the 1000+ grand king and above backer accounts.
Even those that are heavily speculating and investing right now, will
have more than 10k plat lying around ... just for the sake of buying
things cheap if they see an opportunity.

So even those that play the market currently, will have a lot of "cash"
lying around so they are flexible in the face of opportune trades.



For the sake of this argument and some empirical data:

I m a GK, DC, Collector, double King backer. so around 1K investment.
I did not buy anything in addition to that, ever. So no additional plat etc.

Currently I possess everything I want in this game except some sleeves
like Buc / Jadim.
That includes playsets of every regular card in the game and of the majority of AAs.

In addition to that I m invested knee deep in a handful of legendaries / AAs,
as well as having a couple hundred boosters left.

Despite all of this, the account basically never went below the 10K plat line.


I assume there are between 300 and 1500 people (very hard to estimate currently),
that are just as much or much more heavily invested in HEX than I am.


But one more thing should be considered... the majority of the medium backers like me
and most of the whale backers above that ... never had a reason to buy platinum.

So most of our "worth" is an illusion in terms of actual platinum inside the economy.


all and all it is a very interesting economy to speculate about and there is a lot of math
that could be done, taking all the KS accounts and the current prices for pvp commons
and chase legendaries into account.

In the end I m too busy with other things to do the heavy lifting myself,
but I hope this honest data helps more motivated people to fill this post
with more educated guesses.

I hope this thread doesnt just die down as random estimates, because
a lot of interesting information about the present and future of hex can
be concluded if we gather enough data.

stiii
05-27-2015, 07:48 AM
Since i feel the chance of me being called out on "bragging" has passed i want to point out that i have since i started going infinite carried between 20-40k plat and i wouldn't consider my self a whale or even a dolphin.

I think the animal is shark :)

Svenn
05-27-2015, 07:54 AM
This is not what the legal document states. So on one hand we have a ToS, and on the other we have secret memo to the guys.

There's no secret memo. Phenteo has stated it on multiple times in public. Like here, which I already posted:


Currently we are not banning sales of cards and items externally, but we will not recognize those sales as official and you're fully responsible for any damages incurred. We are, however, not allowing the selling of platinum or gold outside of the game. Anyone caught doing so will have actions taken against their account.
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=39147&p=432814#post432814

HexEnt is okay with selling anything but gold/platinum. Actions will be taken against people who sell gold/platinum. The ToS is a "cover their ass" thing.

israel.kendall
05-27-2015, 08:32 AM
There's no secret memo. Phenteo has stated it on multiple times in public. Like here, which I already posted:


http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=39147&p=432814#post432814

HexEnt is okay with selling anything but gold/platinum. Actions will be taken against people who sell gold/platinum. The ToS is a "cover their ass" thing.

That statement was actually made before the ToS language was changed to the current language. We have no such statements on the current iteration of the document, only on past revisions.

Svenn
05-27-2015, 08:38 AM
That statement was actually made before the ToS language was changed to the current language. We have no such statements on the current iteration of the document, only on past revisions.

Well I PMed Phenteo after the TOS changes to ask if it was still the same and he said yes. I'm going with that.

Yoss
05-27-2015, 08:46 AM
Well I PMed Phenteo after the TOS changes to ask if it was still the same and he said yes. I'm going with that.

Speaking of secret messages...

Svenn
05-27-2015, 09:54 AM
Speaking of secret messages...

Well I PMed Phenteo after the TOS changes to ask if it was still the same and he said yes. I'm going with that.

I can bold things too. ;)

I hardly think confirming something DIDN'T change is a secret message.

nicosharp
05-27-2015, 10:05 AM
HexEnt is okay with selling anything but gold/platinum. Actions will be taken against people who sell gold/platinum. The ToS is a "cover their ass" thing.
It's pretty silly to think of 1 digital asset being okay, and 1 not being okay. They are both pixels in the game. Whether it be a card or currency. It's not like I am utilizing the system to profit myself, but I don't see the loophole in transforming plat and gold into cards and packs and selling those cards/packs any different than selling the gold and plat directly.

LNQ
05-27-2015, 10:12 AM
It is an additional hurdle to overcome. Bought cards are harder to convert back to plat, especially if the value exchanged is big. It combats abuse somewhat.

Svenn
05-27-2015, 10:13 AM
It's pretty silly to think of 1 digital asset being okay, and 1 not being okay. They are both pixels in the game. Whether it be a card or currency. It's not like I am utilizing the system to profit myself, but I don't see the loophole in transforming plat and gold into cards and packs and selling those cards/packs any different than selling the gold and plat directly.
Honestly, I don't know why they do it. I wish we were allowed to sell it. It sure would make things easier as there's always a market for cheaper plat so it's an easy way to cash out.

I suspect it may have something to do with trying to avoid any sort of laws where it could be considered a valid currency and subject to whatever laws that could lead to, but that's just my thoughts. That and/or trying to protect the value of platinum (which it doesn't seem to do well).

nicosharp
05-27-2015, 10:16 AM
It is an additional hurdle to overcome. Bought cards are harder to convert back to plat, especially if the value exchanged is big. It combats abuse somewhat.
It does not combat abuse actually. It makes it easier for players to sell, in terms of their personal efforts.

Inversely, if you sold gold and plat directly, you need to sell the cards first and packs in the game. If you allow people to sell cards and packs and not gold and plat, you are essentially cutting out a middleman that the game creates to acquire it.

israel.kendall
05-27-2015, 10:24 AM
Honestly, I don't know why they do it. I wish we were allowed to sell it. It sure would make things easier as there's always a market for cheaper plat so it's an easy way to cash out.

I suspect it may have something to do with trying to avoid any sort of laws where it could be considered a valid currency and subject to whatever laws that could lead to, but that's just my thoughts. That and/or trying to protect the value of platinum (which it doesn't seem to do well).

It is 100% about Gameforge's plat selling profits IMO. But I would also say it would be a very interesting legal case if someone fought the notion of both allowing and disallowing something using the exact same line and language. It could possibly become an anti-trust issue, especially if "secret memos" are revealed.

MatWith1T
05-27-2015, 10:42 AM
Having a blanket denial that their in-game currency has any sort of redemption value covers their ass on a number of legal and regulation issues; not to mention I'm confident that their Gameforge agreement names Gameforge as the exclusive vendor of Hex Platinum for their region, and I'd be willing to wager that agreement also obliges Hex to make best efforts to prevent unauthorized circumvention of their exclusive arrangement.