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thegreybetween
05-26-2015, 02:23 PM
Greetings HEXers,

Just catching up after a long weekend, and after reading the Friday update and some of the subsequent threads related to it, I figured I'd offer up my perspective on a trajectory that has been bothering me a bit lately.

As I haven't been too vocal on the official forums (I mostly hang in my guild forums), I'll give you a little background so you know where I'm coming from: I am a Grand King/King/Slacker Backer, and the money I've put into this game is far from trivial. As an avid collector and a consummate "completionist", I've amassed quite the little Entrathi empire, complete save for a few copies of some AA cards and some of the event sleeves. I'm the community admin of The Unnamed Council, one of the most active guilds in the community. So, if ever there are questions as to my conviction, rest assured: I've drunk the Kool-aid.

I was drawn to HEX because of what it promised to be: Among other things, the ultimate campaign-driven, character-development-happy, unique-card-improvement-fueled, statistic-tracking PvE extravaganza that blends amazing tactical card play with a brilliant AI storyline. I am, first and foremost, a collector, and the feature that ultimately sold me on the game was Double Backs. The idea of every single card being a unique entity with its own storied history, battle scars, and accolades really resonated with me.

I may be an odd duck when it comes to the whole MMO economy thing, but to me, this is a game. It is something I do to spend my recreation time. I don't want to be bothered with concerns about min-maxing my expenditures or waiting to pounce on favorable market conditions. I want to play the game. If I want a thing and there is a system in place which allows me to earn it, cool. I'm happy to put in my time to build an empire, but I need to be able to enjoy the process or it ceases to be a game and becomes a chore.

Lately, HEX is treading some tenuous ground with me. As a "completionist", I freely admit that my compulsion to "have it all" puts me at a disadvantage when rationalizing a game like this. I've already dropped several thousand dollars into the game; I have my playsets, I've done my grind, and all of that. I'm set. And I'll be right there doing it all again as I delve in to Set 3, or scrape up codes for AA Buccy sleeves and GenCon promos, etc. You know the drill.

But with each new state-of-the-union update on the status of PvE or Double Backs - these great features that pulled me in and made me into a whale in the first place - it seems like more and more of the game itself is going away in favor of "value". Consider:

1) Stardust - The cool thing about Double Back upgrades is that it encouraged the use of the cards. You want EA, you need to use the cards and achieve things with them (assuming you're playing and not just hitting the AH). It was a reward. Now, it is a bloody hamster wheel. Any card can get EA treatment with a simple consumable, a total back-step in the conceptual fun of a collection that evolves through use.

The argument makes total sense: We need Gold to be valuable now to draw in the F2P crowd, convert them early into a paying player base, and allow the system to become a self-sustaining beast of economic value. We need Gold sinks to do it. And we don't want to have players waiting even longer for more content, so cut it, pack it, wrap it, and ship it.

2) The PvE Backseat Express - We have an Arena, and every day we count our blessings that we finally have a taste of PvE after more than a year of hype. I love the Arena, and I love what it alludes to in the grander form of Campaign PvE. I'm not going to rehash the tired "Where is more PvE?!?!?" diatribe here, but suffice it to say that, deep in the thralls of "Later this Summer Set 3 hype!", the line for this particular carnival ride is a long one.

Again, the argument is totally valid: We need new PvP sets to keep the game fresh. We need new PvP money to keep the game developing. We need a dependable content-release schedule to foster a legitimate e-sports environment. We need happy players to keep those tournaments firing.

3) The Mercenary who might - Remember how awesome the whole Champion/Mercenary level-up system was during the KS? Then came the MIGHT system, which was met with - at best - mixed feelings and the promise of a solid and cool account-level system. But now word on the street is that the MIGHT system may be back out and we may be back to something closer to our original system. In either case, I expect that what we end up getting will be balanced, well-integrated, and hopefully awesome. I have faith in that. Where my faith falters is here: Are we really so befuddled in the PvE development process that, at this stage in the game, we still don't know? If such a fundamental concept is still in the brainstorming phase...

I know, I know. Value. We need to consider value. Gotta get those F2P people to commit. Gotta keep us whales happy. Gotta ensure that an AA CMK is really worth $75 or else we might look like asses for hoarding them. And so on.

Value really is the thing, isn't it?

Personally, I call bollocks. I am paying to play a game, not fund an IRA. I don't expect the quarters that I drop into a pinball table to somehow pay me back dividends. I don't expect Skyrim to mail me a check because I "invested" $70 to become the DragonBorn. And unless HEX continues down this path, I have no intention of selling my collection here either. I paid to play this amazing game, to have ALL T3H L00tz, and to enjoy unlocking all of the features on my massive Flock of Seagulls army. I want to have some bloody fun, and I am more than happy to sacrifice "value" for my gaming money to see that it happens.

"LOLz n00b. why play MMOTCG if no care value? go back to Hearthstone haha"

So yeah, like I said - I'm probably the odd duck here. And I may have made a bad call when I decided to get so involved in a game that seems to care less about being a game and more about being a market. Time will tell. But for every feature that adds "value" to my collection at the expense of an exciting game feature, it makes me less inclined to play and more inclined to sell. So in that respect, I guess the economy works. (Hooray hyperbole!)

Anyway, that's my two cents. I'd rather not spark a flame war with this, as it is merely my own opinion and I do not discount or belittle any of you who are in this to rock the economy. I am happy to hear other thoughts on the matter. Do you like the direction things are going? How important is account value to you? What would you like to see happen moving forward?

Good times.

Svenn
05-26-2015, 02:35 PM
1) Double backs haven't gone away. They are still a feature that's in development. You didn't lose anything here. If anything, you are gaining more as now Double backs will unlock foils and something other than EA.

2) It's not just about needing PvP sets to keep things fresh... but the fact that PvE is an incredibly complicated set of systems that is built upon the framework of PvP. PvE is everything PvP is (except tournaments maybe), but with a ton built on top of it. Content development is one of the most time consuming parts of creating a game. PvP has no content to create other than cards. PvE is cards, dungeons, stories, maps, leveling systems, etc. It's just so much more. Even if they have all the PvE systems working (clearly some are since we have Arena) then they have to spend a TON of time on each and every dungeon/raid. PvP is "done" and the only thing left to do is make more cards. That's one of the least time consuming parts. Am I sad that it's taking so long? Sure, but I don't think for a second that it's taken a backseat to PvP.

As for value... it's a huge part of a TCG. It's the reason people dump tons of money into it. If it wasn't for the fact that stuff has real value I would have spent $15 instead of $1500.

I disagree that anything is taking a backseat to value, though. I don't think the changes to the leveling system (whatever it might be now) have anything to do with value. I think they are trying to create the most fun game possible. The problem is that a lot of things that sound awesome in concept and high level design don't always work exactly how you want when it comes down to the actual development of it. If they are changing things it's because they've tested it and they think there is something better for the game (not value). I think a lot of this boils down to people not being familiar with the development process and how things can differ from the original design.

That being said they are concerned about value and the economy, but I don't think it's influencing major design points.

Diesbudt
05-26-2015, 02:38 PM
1) Double backs haven't gone away. They are still a feature that's in development. You didn't lose anything here. If anything, you are gaining more as now Double backs will unlock foils and something other than EA.

2) It's not just about needing PvP sets to keep things fresh... but the fact that PvE is an incredibly complicated set of systems that is built upon the framework of PvP. PvE is everything PvP is (except tournaments maybe), but with a ton built on top of it. Content development is one of the most time consuming parts of creating a game. PvP has no content to create other than cards. PvE is cards, dungeons, stories, maps, leveling systems, etc. It's just so much more. Am I sad that it's taking so long? Sure, but I don't think for a second that it's taken a backseat to PvP.

As for value... it's a huge part of a TCG. It's the reason people dump tons of money into it. If it wasn't for the fact that stuff has real value I would have spent $15 instead of $1500.

I disagree that anything is taking a backseat to value, though. I don't think the changes to the leveling system (whatever it might be now) have anything to do with value. I think they are trying to create the most fun game possible. The problem is that a lot of things that sound awesome in concept and high level design don't always work exactly how you want when it comes down to the actual development of it. If they are changing things it's because they've tested it and they think there is something better for the game (not value). I think a lot of this boils down to people not being familiar with the development process and how things can differ from the original design.

That being said they are concerned about value and the economy, but I don't think it's influencing major design points.

I concur with this post > 99.99%.

plaguedealer
05-26-2015, 02:40 PM
Hex is in a weird state right now and I can see why people want value. Absent arena, the main thing to do is draft which costs money. People are going to want to see value if that remains the case.

nicetodd
05-26-2015, 02:40 PM
I think we are at a stage the "sausage" should be far enough along we should have a better development timetable on real PVE (including whichever leveling system is landed on) and guild features. I am here to play too.

I can't spend hours in tourneys. I need bite sized chunks and a guild for a social atmosphere. We are well past time for some kind of real milestones other than some misty sausage factory images (as much as I love Cory for betting it all on this game).

Full disclosure, I am a GuildMaster backer and have invested at least that much more in collecting Set 2.

Sparrow
05-26-2015, 02:43 PM
I'm not seeing that CZE is concentrating on making game assets more valuable or even preserving their value. I think their philosophy is build a great game and the value becomes inherent. As far as PVE goes, they've given themselves a Herculean task in terms of balancing the experience due to all the variables of equipment, abilities, cards, consumables, buffs, etc. It's completely understandable to me why it's taking so much time. TBH, I'll be surprised to see much more in terms of PVE before the end of the year, given the complexity of the task.

Diesbudt
05-26-2015, 02:45 PM
Hex is in a weird state right now and I can see why people want value. Absent arena, the main thing to do is draft which costs money. People are going to want to see value if that remains the case.

There are also people who enjoy the aspect of an economy and have the most fun trying to maximize their value. Which is their way of having fun.

Overall man thing is, from what we have been told campaign isn't far off at all, but programming all the interactions really does take a lot of time and pvp is not distracting from PvE.

plaguedealer
05-26-2015, 02:49 PM
There are also people who enjoy the aspect of an economy and have the most fun trying to maximize their value. Which is their way of having fun.

Overall man thing is, from what we have been told campaign isn't far off at all, but programming all the interactions really does take a lot of time and pvp is not distracting from PvE.

I hear what you are saying. But the op argues that one shouldnt worry too much about value if they are having fun. I agree with that argument. However, it is difficult for some people to have fun and not worry about value when one of the main things to do is draft or market speculate, which costs money.

israel.kendall
05-26-2015, 02:50 PM
There are also people who enjoy the aspect of an economy and have the most fun trying to maximize their value. Which is their way of having fun.

Overall man thing is, from what we have been told campaign isn't far off at all, but programming all the interactions really does take a lot of time and pvp is not distracting from PvE.

I personally love playing the market and profit tremendously no matter the value of gold. But I agree with the OP, for the most part.

nicosharp
05-26-2015, 02:52 PM
It's pretty easy to burn-out right now on the dream. It's been two years since the KS campaign, of a dream some of us hopelessly optimistic thought we would see around September of 2013.

As painfully slow as the wait has been, the progress has been enlightening and rewarding. The product is well done. The team is dedicated. From a getting in on the ground floor perspective, I could not be happier with what I backed.

You can't get back years of your life, but you can appreciate an entertainment source for what it is, no matter how old and senile you become. If we remind ourselves that we backed a concept, and idea, the only time we can really judge whether or not we made the right choice, is when the concept and idea are made complete. We aren't there yet. If I can't enjoy it when it's finished, at least I helped make it happen so countless others can when its done.

thegreybetween
05-26-2015, 02:53 PM
@ Svenn - Thanks for the post. A few comments:

Re #1 - I wasn't implying that Double Backs had gone away. I know they will still do foil unlocks, and assuming that the achievement system remains, we'll get something else for it (not sure what other cosmetic features we can unlock; fancy borders? AAA?). My point was that the EA system has been severely watered down by making it into a goldsink. I get why it was done, but it definitely detracts from my personal appreciation of the system and seems counterproductive to the game I want to play in favor of the game that we hope masses of other people will play.

Re #2 - I agree in large part. Nevertheless, I am more than happy to continue to wait for content that builds my excitement for the game, rather than receive these dumbed-down rush jobs. Achievement-based EAs in a year is way better than grind-sink EAs next month, IMO.

Re: Value - Funny enough, I did sink tons of money into this game with nary a thought to value. But like I said, I'm an odd duck :p I guess it takes all kinds.

I get what you're saying, but the general subconscious vibe I keep getting is that things do seem to be taking a back seat to value. I can't fault the logic of the decisions behind it, and I'm sure it is ultimately a good thing for the game. But I keep finding my own patience rewarded with disappointing news to content changes, and in my personal opinion, that is a legitimate issue.

Diesbudt
05-26-2015, 02:58 PM
I personally love playing the market and profit tremendously no matter the value of gold. But I agree with the OP, for the most part.

I agree that people should play for fun, whatever their version of fun is. However the rest of the OP is factually incorrect. I can understand his/her viewpoint that it looks like it as he says but as you see below...

+ PVP has not put a back seat on PvE. Set 2 was completed at the end of the kickstarter campaign. They even mentioned it back then. Outside tweeking, pvp is not slowing pve down. It is just the difficulty to code PVE along with a more capable AI where some AIs will have different "personalities" And hex does not want to release it until it is ready and out pretty much all at once.

+ Hex has not focused on value. The playerbase decides the value of stuff, that is how economies work. Hex just implements things.
Hex just has a vision they are following and place things out as they are needed. Like keeping cards fresh and new things as they work on the big portion of the game.

AdamAoE2
05-26-2015, 02:59 PM
A well written post. I'd like to address your points.


I was drawn to HEX because of what it promised to be: Among other things, the ultimate campaign-driven, character-development-happy, unique-card-improvement-fueled, statistic-tracking PvE extravaganza that blends amazing tactical card play with a brilliant AI storyline. I am, first and foremost, a collector, and the feature that ultimately sold me on the game was Double Backs. The idea of every single card being a unique entity with its own storied history, battle scars, and accolades really resonated with me.

I agree whole-heartedly. The idea that each card comes with it's own story is a great idea, and I still think they can deliver on this promise. Although Extended Art is now tied to stardust, that doesn't mean that they are scrapping the idea of Double Backs. You still have a slew of different ways to differentiate individual cards. They still have foil, perhaps badges or medal icons, or other visual effects. Remember, this is a digital TCG. They literally have a huge design space to work with when it comes to these cards. Perhaps the card could unlock a special unique sound-effect, or do something else entirely.


I may be an odd duck when it comes to the whole MMO economy thing, but to me, this is a game. It is something I do to spend my recreation time. I don't want to be bothered with concerns about min-maxing my expenditures or waiting to pounce on favorable market conditions. I want to play the game. If I want a thing and there is a system in place which allows me to earn it, cool. I'm happy to put in my time to build an empire, but I need to be able to enjoy the process or it ceases to be a game and becomes a chore...

I've never been one to "play the auction house" either. I do appreciate the mini-game it does provide. Although that isn't particularly important to you or me, I can appreciate that the game provides this experience to people. If we are going to cultivate that "MMO" feeling, every single item they introduce that can be traded is a positive to me. Since dust is gainable by gold, I don't feel like this is necessarily going to be a bad thing. You'll be playing the PvE campaign anyway, why does it matter if you pay 1000 gold or make Baby Yeti attack on turn 1 ten times?


1) Stardust - The cool thing about Double Back upgrades is that it encouraged the use of the cards. You want EA, you need to use the cards and achieve things with them (assuming you're playing and not just hitting the AH). It was a reward. Now, it is a bloody hamster wheel. Any card can get EA treatment with a simple consumable, a total back-step in the conceptual fun of a collection that evolves through use.

The argument makes total sense: We need Gold to be valuable now to draw in the F2P crowd, convert them early into a paying player base, and allow the system to become a self-sustaining beast of economic value. We need Gold sinks to do it. And we don't want to have players waiting even longer for more content, so cut it, pack it, wrap it, and ship it...

I do agree with you here. Perhaps they should implement a system where the card can only be upgraded with Stardust if it has achieved a certain experience level. (EXP gained after completing PvE encounters) While I am fine with the stardust system, I think that you should have to use the card to some extent before you can upgrade it. If they fail to implement something like this, why bother with the less efficient cards in PvE? Why should I play with a Corrupt Harvester when I can simply use a Vampire King to grind the gold needed to upgrade the Corrupt Harvester?


2) The PvE Backseat Express - We have an Arena, and every day we count our blessings that we finally have a taste of PvE after more than a year of hype. I love the Arena, and I love what it alludes to in the grander form of Campaign PvE. I'm not going to rehash the tired "Where is more PvE?!?!?" diatribe here, but suffice it to say that, deep in the thralls of "Later this Summer Set 3 hype!", the line for this particular carnival ride is a long one.

Again, the argument is totally valid: We need new PvP sets to keep the game fresh. We need new PvP money to keep the game developing. We need a dependable content-release schedule to foster a legitimate e-sports environment. We need happy players to keep those tournaments firing....

I'm willing to cut them more slack here. The PvE system they are envisioning is so massive and in depth that I can cut them some slack when it comes to development time. I'd rather they spend as much time as they need to deliver a revolutionary system that achieves excellence rather then rushing some half-baked content. They only get one chance to make an awesome first impression with the content. PvE is that carrot on a stick that keeps many people excited. Imagine how disheartened the community would be if the PvE content came out... and it sucked. Keep the faith - Believe in Cory & Team. I have never met a group of more passionate, innovative, and generous game developers. I know they will deliver an exceptional PvE experience when they think it's ready.


3) The Mercenary who might - Remember how awesome the whole Champion/Mercenary level-up system was during the KS? Then came the MIGHT system, which was met with - at best - mixed feelings and the promise of a solid and cool account-level system. But now word on the street is that the MIGHT system may be back out and we may be back to something closer to our original system. In either case, I expect that what we end up getting will be balanced, well-integrated, and hopefully awesome. I have faith in that. Where my faith falters is here: Are we really so befuddled in the PvE development process that, at this stage in the game, we still don't know? If such a fundamental concept is still in the brainstorming phase.

I think when something is being tried for the first time, you are going to have several iterations as they decide what works and what doesn't work. Ultimately, they need to find the system that best fits their system while remaining feasible and possible to do. If that means they need to scrap systems multiple times until they find something that's just right, that's fine. Look at WoW - They had giant talent trees for each class.... and then ended up scrapping them for a very different talent/skill system then what they had in the past. As long as the system they end up choosing ends up being epic with tons of game replayability - I am okay with whatever system they decide to



I know, I know. Value. We need to consider value. Gotta get those F2P people to commit. Gotta keep us whales happy. Gotta ensure that an AA CMK is really worth $75 or else we might look like asses for hoarding them. And so on.

Value really is the thing, isn't it?

Personally, I call bollocks. I am paying to play a game, not fund an IRA. I don't expect the quarters that I drop into a pinball table to somehow pay me back dividends. I don't expect Skyrim to mail me a check because I "invested" $70 to become the DragonBorn. And unless HEX continues down this path, I have no intention of selling my collection here either. I paid to play this amazing game, to have ALL T3H L00tz, and to enjoy unlocking all of the features on my massive Flock of Seagulls army. I want to have some bloody fun, and I am more than happy to sacrifice "value" for my gaming money to see that it happens.

This is the delicate line they dance when they are combining a PvE and a PvP game. Value is an important part of a TCG. I have no serious intentions of ever selling my collections, but I still get excited every time I bust a Reese or Monsuun. These cards give me more value to get the ever-more exclusive cards or items in the game that would otherwise be impossible for me to get. Opening Booster Packs, finding loot, or even defeating Uruunaz would be a lot less exciting if all you got was a T-shirt that says "I beat Uruunaz and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt." Value inherently makes the game more exciting to interact with in general. I guarantee you that opening a Monsuun in a booster pack is much more exciting and fun then opening a R in Hearthstone. (Or whatever the Best Legendary is these days.)



"LOLz n00b. why play MMOTCG if no care value? go back to Hearthstone haha"

So yeah, like I said - I'm probably the odd duck here. And I may have made a bad call when I decided to get so involved in a game that seems to care less about being a game and more about being a market. Time will tell. But for every feature that adds "value" to my collection at the expense of an exciting game feature, it makes me less inclined to play and more inclined to sell. So in that respect, I guess the economy works. (Hooray hyperbole!)

Anyway, that's my two cents. I'd rather not spark a flame war with this, as it is merely my own opinion and I do not discount or belittle any of you who are in this to rock the economy. I am happy to hear other thoughts on the matter. Do you like the direction things are going? How important is account value to you? What would you like to see happen moving forward?

Good times.

I don't buy the idea that Value and exciting game features are mutually exclusive. Exciting features will come with time, and just because they've decided to put Extended Arts into a gold/stardust system doesn't mean that something equally awesome won't take it's place.

Great Post though - I agree with many of the things you said.

magic_gazz
05-26-2015, 03:12 PM
Its different strokes for different folks.

I like the change as it means I can just pay to level cards, rather than grind achievements. I don't want to have to play a bad card in constructed to try and level it up.

Value is subjective. If you value something you pay the price, if you don't value it (or cant afford it) then you don't. Just because others are making profits does not mean you need to (not everyone can anyway).

Hex is (in my opinion) going to have something for everyone, unfortunately that also means that you might not like everything as it has not all been tailored to you personally.

You obviously have a lot of passion for the game and that is a great thing. Keep the faith.

thegreybetween
05-26-2015, 03:15 PM
@ Byrnhildr - Thanks for the comments and the detailed feedback. As I mentioned in my response to Svenn above, I agree that Double Backs will still be awesome; my bone was with the treatment of the EA system. Your points are well taken. And again, I do not dispute or even have an issue with the development pace of PvE (aside from the fact that we all want it ASAP). My issue there was that it feels like content that was safely locked in PvE development is being watered down into easier-to-implement features in the name of value.

I am happy to wait as long as I have to for something that lives up to the goal. And I understand that, like you said, sometimes things need to change in favor of being realistic. But in the case of EA, it feels like we're being rushed an inferior product that comes with significant short-term value-building side-effects. Makes sense, but I don't like it. That's all I'm saying there.

I agree that value and excitement do not have to be mutually exclusive. But recent trends point to a favored side of that equation, and I just wanted to step up and say "bummer."

Tazelbain
05-26-2015, 03:19 PM
Project Management Triangle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_management_triangle)

Just because the aspects of Hex you enjoy the most aren't receiving a lot of love today doesn't mean they're off the table.

PureVapes
05-26-2015, 03:30 PM
On the surface, prioritizing 'value' is very much what it looks like. Let's look at a few of the things...

Set 2 release before PvE (Arena) - This one definitely made them some money, but it's also true that most of the player base was very bored with playing with only Set 1, and many people became active again after Set 2 release. But let's imagine that they did actually release arena before Set 2 - the enemies would be less interesting and we couldn't use a very diverse pool of cards or have a whole lot of equipment drops because of the limitations of a single set.

CMK / Living Totem AA - The value is definitely there for Collector backers, but they are getting an AA regardless so it's not eating any more of Hex's time to make AAs of those cards. It's also a good sign for the health of a game (and thus attracts players) if there are some very valuable cards in the game, especially if they aren't necessities, since it indicates an active economy. In my opinion, it is smart to choose some tournament level cards among the AAs they release, although the VIP AAs for Set 2 have been a little lackluster.

VIP - While this was probably mostly for a new influx of money, it also served as a reward for beta players who missed out on the Kickstarter and I'm personally glad it exists.

Set 3 release before next PvE content - The last big release was arena, so I'm not too surprised at this. The arena decks are getting pretty stale and Set 3 will revitalize deck testing versus the arena. Additionally, I don't want to see a campaign/dungeon where the enemies are drawing from the same pool of cards as the arena enemies. I know they can add more PvE enemy only cards, but I want to see decks showcasing some new stuff that we can aquire too. As a PvP player, the need for new drafting/constructed material is also very real and many people beyond just myself are bored with 2-2-1 drafts.

Store AAs - This definitely drew some cash from collecting spenders who highly value their time, but a very important thing to remember about the forums is that big spenders, collectors, backers, and others with vested interest are greatly over-represented here relative to the PvP, F2P, casual and non-collector PvE crowds. I'm willing to bet that vast numbers of people who don't frequent the forums are happy with the gold value becoming significant in terms of getting somewhere with little investment. The good news for collectors who are tired of buying gold is that as the player base grows, the big swings in 'value' should be smaller. The time they spent to release these store AAs was likely minimal and probably in parallel with PvE/PvP content development also, since it was mostly artwork and UI work.

Stardust - From what I've heard about artwork, it's already there so the mechanic for unlocking EA was the only thing necessary for them to spend time on - which is quite insignificant compared to big releases like sets and arena. The 'value' of a doubleback will be something determined by the economy, whereas with Stardust there is now a hard limit on EA. However, for collectors this is probably a good thing. Hex can easily balance Stardust drops so that getting EA in this way is less time consuming and easier than doublebacks would have been since some of the unlocks could have been quite a chore. If people really wanted to be forced to play with terrible cards to unlock EA, I'm not really sure what to say about that (since doubleback will still be a thing so you'll still get the flavor there).

Rehab
05-26-2015, 03:41 PM
Great post. I absolutely agree with your points on pve. I would be thrilled to learn where they landed on the leveling system. I was pumped about the system discussed during KS, not so much about the might system. Glad they are rethinking it but concerned that they should have this set in stone at this point.

Also agree with your points on value, I wont go into detail on this one though, people get very touchy when it comes to collection value.

Tazelbain
05-26-2015, 03:45 PM
VIP - While this was probably mostly for a new influx of money, it also served as a reward for beta players who missed out on the Kickstarter and I'm personally glad it exists.

Has the history of VIP already become forgotten lore?

plaguedealer
05-26-2015, 03:53 PM
Value is a very general term though and I might not be sure what the op was saying. There was a argument that f2p should not have a easy time grinding to be able to draft because it would hurt the economy. I believe that argument has been proven false for the most part and that "value" argument is not good for hex.

Value in the sense that doing things like arena should be somewhat valuable is good for hex.

israel.kendall
05-26-2015, 03:56 PM
The point from my understanding is that "fun" is taking a back seat to "value". At least that's the way I see it.

ossuary
05-26-2015, 03:58 PM
As someone else who is (extremely) eagerly awaiting the PVE content, I totally feel the OP's pain. While I enjoy the chase and the speculation of life as an Auctioneer, I also hate seeing features that were going to be integrated into the cycle of gameplay and deck design stripped down to "pay money, get thing" instead. It's heartbreaking, and I still think it's a bad move, regardless of the very good reason that "It's ready, this is a way we can give it to people sooner." It still feels like a punch in the guts for people who were looking forward to that style of unlocking the EAs, so once again, I'm with you.

As with you, I still have faith that Hex will be an amazing game. I just hope that not too many people burn out on waiting or shifted deliverables along the way. I'm in for the long haul no matter what, but I sincerely hope that no more of the most exciting pieces don't end up getting stripped down or changed for the worse in the name of progress.

thegreybetween
05-26-2015, 03:59 PM
@ PureVapes - Good points all. My only comment here is that everything you said about Stardust is exactly what my problem is with the new system, lol. An established hard-cap without any specific-card focused effort kills the flavor that an achievement-based EA system would promote. "Being forced to play with terrible cards" was precisely what attracted me to the system - an encouragement to try new things, and to feel accomplished when I was the only jackass who took the time to unlock EA Shadow Rends :p I'm really looking forward to learn what replaced the EA in the Double Back system, and I hope it goes a long way to reestablish the "can't wait to use all of this crap" vibe that recently got snubbed.

Yoss
05-26-2015, 04:35 PM
The point from my understanding is that "fun" is taking a back seat to "value". At least that's the way I see it.

Yes, and to some extent they really are mutually exclusive. A player giving Plat for Gold means that that player would rather pay than play to earn the Gold, which generally means that the gold-generating content is not (currently) fun for the paying player.

ryuukan
05-26-2015, 05:30 PM
As someone else who is (extremely) eagerly awaiting the PVE content, I totally feel the OP's pain. While I enjoy the chase and the speculation of life as an Auctioneer, I also hate seeing features that were going to be integrated into the cycle of gameplay and deck design stripped down to "pay money, get thing" instead. It's heartbreaking, and I still think it's a bad move, regardless of the very good reason that "It's ready, this is a way we can give it to people sooner." It still feels like a punch in the guts for people who were looking forward to that style of unlocking the EAs, so once again, I'm with you.

As with you, I still have faith that Hex will be an amazing game. I just hope that not too many people burn out on waiting or shifted deliverables along the way. I'm in for the long haul no matter what, but I sincerely hope that no more of the most exciting pieces don't end up getting stripped down or changed for the worse in the name of progress.

This post is EA AA quality

That second paragraph fuels my fears of how we have no real idea what doublebacks, dungeons, raids, and various other PVE promised concepts are aside from various oral conversations at random points in the past

Tinfoil
05-26-2015, 07:55 PM
I understand why they have to create a viable economy, its part of the whole mmotcg concept. But, that being said, I dislike the that payment on general principle. It's a pyramid microtransaction model. But I have to live with it if I want to play and I do like the game. Alfa gave me a taste for pvp, so fortunately that is my main interest.

If you do not enjoy Hex as it is now you should probably stop and consider returning come release. Another thing to consider is, that they might prioritize pve content suitable for new players before releasing dungeons designed for whales with full collections.

But oh, do I wish that Hex could be "just a game" without all the value crazyness.

Fyren
05-26-2015, 09:10 PM
But oh, do I wish that Hex could be "just a game" without all the value crazyness.

It might be a pathology, but I actually really enjoy the pursuit of value. To me that craziness is fun. I love watching the collection expand and tracking the TCGBrowser's sketchy estimate of the worth of my expanding collection(Which recently broke 70K Plat, yay!). No other game can make me physically gasp like this does when a card worth $20 pops out of the Wheels of Fate. It adds a lot to the motivation to keep burning at building my collection, especially this early in Hex's life cycle.

Voormas
05-26-2015, 10:23 PM
...I totally feel the OP's pain... It's heartbreaking... feels like a punch in the guts...

Really? How did people get so invested in one idea about how a single cosmetic game feature was probably (maybe) going to be implemented from a 2+ year old pitch? Are people going to be up in arms when Guilds or Crafting get revealed and don't turn out to be exactly like how we interpreted from the very sparse amount of info provided thus far?

ShloobeR
05-27-2015, 01:24 AM
Really? How did people get so invested in one idea about how a single cosmetic game feature was probably (maybe) going to be implemented from a 2+ year old pitch? Are people going to be up in arms when Guilds or Crafting get revealed and don't turn out to be exactly like how we interpreted from the very sparse amount of info provided thus far?

Nope.

Double backs were one of my most interesting and innovative ideas in Hex and is a large part of what made me become a backer. It was one of the featured game elements on the front menu (just after 'how to play', if that doesn't speak to it's importance I don't know what will) and it was something that was being championed very strongly by the team. Your argument is ridiculous when you consider how key a feature double backs were.

Now I totally understand that HEX plans to replace the elements lost (EA) with new things, but I'm extremely unnerved by the fact that this plan for double backs which had been in place for over a year has suddenly been replaced with a 'pay X money, get feature' idea.

The argument that EA will be replaced by something 'greater' is great in theory but it's the process by which this happened which makes me uneasy, We've been waiting for a very long time for progress in certain areas and then when it seems the end is within sight it is suddenly pulled out from under our noses and replaced with 'stardust' value.

I just hope there are not too many more changes from the original product that I backed by the time we get it in our hands. I love the game and want it to do well, and to do well it needs more F2P players of course. I only hope it's not at the expense of 'selling out' features that we originally anticipated.

AstaSyneri
05-27-2015, 01:26 AM
Really? How did people get so invested in one idea about how a single cosmetic game feature was probably (maybe) going to be implemented from a 2+ year old pitch? Are people going to be up in arms when Guilds or Crafting get revealed and don't turn out to be exactly like how we interpreted from the very sparse amount of info provided thus far?

It's pars pro toto. It's not about this single game feature, it's about seeing the fantasies in our head slide away, much like old age gets rid of the excitements of youth.

Much as my guildmate (the OP) I wasn't drawn into the Kickstarter by visions of finally having a better Magic Online (I always hated Magic for all the money-grubbing attitudes and preferred to play other "other" CCGs). What tickles my fancy is to look at my card pool (which is the reason I am going for a playset) and solve the challenges set. I can absolutely related to the feeling of achievement when you unlock your cards and this sense for me will be disturbed until we get more information about how the double backs are going to be handled.

In the end it's about value after all - only for me value means that what I get to play and have fun with has to relate well to the amount of money (and time to an extent) that I put into it. I don't much like draft (I can see Cory hiss now and get out the garlic and the holy water), I rarely have time to do PvP tournaments which makes them feel more like a chore.

What I am looking forward is pretty much the same as thegreyinbetween: exciting PvE content I can dig into at my own pace. I don't care about Set 3 previews when at the same time there is no further information about PvE. Alone the fact that I have to ask for it again (as I have been vocal about it when Set 2 came out), makes me a bit disappointed.

On the plus side I am sure Cory will blow us away with new systems and more information about PvE content pretty soon ;-). He always manage to rekindle the interest in us PvE sleeper agents.

wolzarg
05-27-2015, 01:59 AM
Really? How did people get so invested in one idea about how a single cosmetic game feature was probably (maybe) going to be implemented from a 2+ year old pitch? Are people going to be up in arms when Guilds or Crafting get revealed and don't turn out to be exactly like how we interpreted from the very sparse amount of info provided thus far?
Yes they absolutely will, don't even doubt that.

NaryaDL0re
05-27-2015, 03:14 AM
I believe your observations are sound OP.

But I also believe that if you observe cory and the crypto crowd:
you have enough reasons to believe that once all the players a drawn in,
Once all the f2p, whale, casual, e-sport, etc players are set
and lots of income for crypto through a very broad market with a cheap way in the game
and a very expensive and deep pool of luxury items to top it off.

Where do you think the money will go? Into corys pockets? I doubt it.

I believe in amazing pve content with astounding schedules.
I believe in absurd monthly 20K+ PvP tournaments and esports landscape warping events.
I believe in a fair price for the "foundation" of the game and absurd prices for rarities.

So as long as the economy that is currently build ... leads to great returns for all the players.
There is nothing to fear.

And I cant spot any real indicators, that certain types of players are getting the short end of the stick.

Outside of "complete OCD collectors" ... but to those I say "what did you expect in a gigantic TCG?
Did you really expect to have "everything" in such a game without spending thousands of € on top
of your kickstarter amount? If yes, you learned a lesson. Otherwise, feel free to spent all the money
in the world and get everything this game has to offer"

There are very few things in this world that you can "collect" "fully" and not go broke at.
Thats kinda the point of collections, they usually only have WORTH because they are worth a LOT
and certain items more so than others to make them special.

You cant run around "deciding to be a collector" and pretend your "desire"/"goal" in this game
has the same right to be fulfilled as that of "the guy who wants to draft" or "have fun in pve with
his guild".



TLDR: currently crypto is building a healthy economy to draw lots of new people in ---> €€$$
I believe crypto will use €€$$ to make all the players happy ---> <3 <3 <3
Yes if you are a collector, this game will cost you a hundred thousand bucks in 10 years.
If you are a real collector, you enjoy that fact and will slowly accumulate your treasures.
If you are an instant gratification "new age collector" wanting everything from the start ...
you have never been and probably never will be "a collector", you are probably just spoiled :/ ...


Extra:

sorry for my condescending tone, in the end of this post my dismay to this
"new type of collector" came through. It has nothing to do with traditional collecting
and one of the few annoying types of people running around this community are
these "I want to feel ultra rich and have everything... but I m not ultra rich so I cant
have everything .... why you do this to me cryptozoic??!!!" people ...

not referring to the OP btw.

thegreybetween
05-27-2015, 10:21 AM
@ NaryaDL0re - I hope I'm interpreting your last sentence correctly in that you aren't inferring that I'm one of your loathed "new type of collectors". I don't believe I ever made any argument about feeling entitled to "having it all". I am, indeed, a collector. And the complete list is, as with any collector, squarely on the goal list. However, the thrill is in the chase, and the easier it is to achieve a thing, the less meaning we can attribute to it. I really enjoy the scope of HEX, and the many directions from which new and collectible content comes. Between event promos, PvE content, new sets, special events, limited-time promos, VIP prizes, WoF, and more, HEX does a great job at ensuring there is pretty much always going to be something else to chase. One of my favorite aspects of a TCG is that moment 5-10 years into its run when you look back at your collection. It will be full of holes and gaps, but it will have taken on a bit of personality as you wheel & deal to amass the stuff that is important to you. What do you give up? What do you keep? What do you actually use? When there is enough content that these questions become relevant, perhaps even mini-dilemmas, that is when collecting is really a good time. And I have no doubt HEX will deliver on that front.

My OP isn't about entitlement. It isn't about alleged misappropriation of resources. I'm not even really criticizing CZE for the choices that they are making, in spite of the fact that I do not like some of those choices. I am simply voicing a concern about a perceived value shift, and how it may negatively impact my HEX experience (YMMV, of course).

I've spent nearly two years staring at the backs of my cards waiting to get to that fabled second backside. I want to see the stats, build the XP, and unlock the achievements. And I know that I will still be able to do those things. But a major component of that system changed substantially, and it happened suddenly, and without any information as to how the system we've been waiting for has been adjusted to accommodate it. The underlying reasons are economic in nature, and that seems to be consistent with many of the bigger changes we've seen from what was originally intended.

I could very well be jumping at ghosts, and I am certain that this forum will not hesitate to point out any potential flaw in anything said herein. But like Voormas said - Much of what we know about the most exciting as-of-yet undelivered elements of this game are based on information that is over two years old. We don't get updates about how intended things are coming along, because too much is subject to change. We learn about it when it is relevant. A change to Double Backs just became relevant, and that change falls in line with a trend that bothers me. So I wanted to open up the discussion to see how everyone else is perceiving this change. My hope is that, when more Double Back changes become relevant enough for us to get an update, we are told something that we want to hear.

Lukezors
05-27-2015, 12:59 PM
I think a lot of people have expressed my feelings pretty well but it boils down to a few things. A big one I've seen mentioned is that it feels like hex has pushed a good economy at the expense of fun, I think this primarily due to the sky high value that gold currently has. I think the problem with the current model is that it makes users who spend money feel like they need to spend more and the f2p users grind more gold to sell. We need a way to pique f2p interest but ultimately encourage them to spend, rather than having the "whales" support them.

A lot of the "grind feeling" will probably be removed when we have dunegons, etc as it will enable gold to be earned in a variety of ways so we can reduce boredom.

I believe the reason we've had a lot of negative feelings recently is the large change to EA made us realize how little we know about many features have changed since the kickstarter. Additionally I think many of us assumed that the current gold prices would be temporary due to the store AAs but due to the introduction of stardust it looks to remain much in the same place.

malloc31
05-27-2015, 01:04 PM
I agree with the OP on many of the points. PVE and it being a "MMO with features akin to warcraft" was one of the main reasons I backed this game, and I just hope it becomes the number one priority "soon". I think the longer it goes the more people (or at least me) get scared that things that had been promised as being almost complete, 2 years ago in the kickstarter where just fabrications and may never be implemented in the way they had been communicated. It is scary to think back to the power point presentation of going through a dungeon was released and every one thought we may have dungeons in a few months, how long ago was that? I can't even remember. Only time will tell what will happen. I think eventually it will all get here, but will it still be the MMO tcg with leveling champions, doublebacks, and sandboxing? I hope so.

MatWith1T
05-27-2015, 01:05 PM
Yes they absolutely will, don't even doubt that.

Who are you kidding, we'll be up in arms even if it comes out EXACTLY as we interpreted it. :p

Svenn
05-27-2015, 01:07 PM
Who are you kidding, we'll be up in arms even if it comes out EXACTLY as we interpreted it. :p

What?! It didn't change at all? I expected this feature to be completely different than advertised by the time it was finished! I didn't like the original design! Rabble Rabble!

Yeah... sounds about right. ;)