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View Full Version : Thoughts from a new player about PVP



IzHaN80
05-30-2015, 08:37 AM
So today, after a couple weeks playing this game, i've packed up a deck and went into the Proving Grounds to fight against a random player. The experience has been pretty bad. First is the latency/delay that happens between each stage of the game, its veryyyyyyyyyy slow, i die of boredom between stages. 2nd thing, and not less important. Why are not Equipments allowed??? This kills the fun of a lot of cards. Some cards that are only decent with EQ are being trash or not usable at all in PVP, they should allow a mode where equipments are allowed to be used with your cards. I don't know if this is the opinion or experience of others, but to me, i hope they fix the latency/slow/delay between stages and that they add equipments to PVP or at least a mode where you can use them.

PS: I tried out 2 games, and i did quit before they finished, because it was just so boring to wait between stages.

Xenavire
05-30-2015, 08:41 AM
There will eventually be a PvP mode that allows PvE items, but it isn't ready yet.

As for the game being slow, have you considered that it was latency/lag from either you or your opponent? And a nice way to speed up the game is to use the hotkeys (F5, etc, check your game settings if you want to change the hotkeys.)

Diesbudt
05-30-2015, 08:45 AM
Equipment is ment to be a PVE only side thing, as they want PVP to be as fair/balanced as possible and equipment can change this drastically.

PVP is PVP cards only; PVE allows everything.

There will be a feature a while ways down the road that allows a "wild west" format for fun that will allow PVE things be used.

IzHaN80
05-30-2015, 08:47 AM
There will eventually be a PvP mode that allows PvE items, but it isn't ready yet.

As for the game being slow, have you considered that it was latency/lag from either you or your opponent? And a nice way to speed up the game is to use the hotkeys (F5, etc, check your game settings if you want to change the hotkeys.)Im playing with optic fiber at 300Mb/s i know it isn't in my end tho, just not because of the line, i mean if i had lag in general, i'd lag everywhere, but never lagged in this game im sure. I've played only 2 vs random players, and i just did quit because for me it was just too slow, or either they were too slow i don't know, i was spamming the spacebar between stages and didn't make things speed up :(. I just hope as you said they add a mode where PvE stuff is allowed, kinda kills the fun of a lot of cards.

Diesbudt
05-30-2015, 08:49 AM
Im playing with optic fiber at 300Mb/s i know it isn't in my end tho, just not because of the line, i mean if i had lag in general, i'd lag everywhere, but never lagged in this game im sure. I've played only 2 vs random players, and i just did quit because for me it was just too slow, or either they were too slow i don't know, i was spamming the spacebar between stages and didn't make things speed up :(. I just hope as you said they add a mode where PvE stuff is allowed, kinda kills the fun of a lot of cards.

Your opponent could have been lagging as well. Or thinking on moves. A.I already knows its move once the turn begins so it will always be at least 50% faster than players.

KingGabriel
05-30-2015, 08:57 AM
Im playing with optic fiber at 300Mb/s i know it isn't in my end tho, just not because of the line, i mean if i had lag in general, i'd lag everywhere, but never lagged in this game im sure. I've played only 2 vs random players, and i just did quit because for me it was just too slow, or either they were too slow i don't know, i was spamming the spacebar between stages and didn't make things speed up :(. I just hope as you said they add a mode where PvE stuff is allowed, kinda kills the fun of a lot of cards.

Because download speed is the same as latency, right? :rolleyes:

IzHaN80
05-30-2015, 09:26 AM
Because download speed is the same as latency, right? :rolleyes:Well just so you know Fiber Optic has much better impact on latency compared to DSL. Actually my ping (last test i ran) is 15ms

Showsni
05-30-2015, 09:27 AM
AI is certainly much faster than humans, but humans don't generally play too slowly. There is a five minute inactivity timer, too. Maybe you just hit a few slow players.

KingGabriel
05-30-2015, 09:28 AM
Well just so you know Fiber Optic has much better impact on latency compared to DSL. Actually my ping (last test i ran) is 15ms

... I'm aware, fibre optic is pretty much the standard here in the uk. But what does quoting that you have a maximum speed of X matter to the whole thing?

Xenavire
05-30-2015, 09:30 AM
AI is certainly much faster than humans, but humans don't generally play too slowly. There is a five minute inactivity timer, too. Maybe you just hit a few slow players.

This is actually pretty likely in the PG. I have had games there recently where even I want to concede, just so I can get more games in. But I stick it out to help the newer/ slower players learn.

rjselzler
05-30-2015, 10:56 AM
PvP is slower in feel than PvE, because you have a real opponent making real decisions, rather than an AI. The last time I did a BG in WoW, it was the same type of thing; mobs rarely heal themselves, but players can heal and be healed, run away, and do all sorts of things to slow you down (ever try to 1-on-1 a resto druid? ugh...). The good news is that, if you dislike PvP, now is a great time to simply PvE in the Arena and make bank on the potentially-skewed gold values: hunt that dragon! Once full-on PvE is in, then you'll probably have more content than you know what to do with (hope springs eternal, right?).

Don't feel like you have to PvP to enjoy this game if PvP is a mode that bores you! The opposite is also true.

rjselzler
05-30-2015, 10:58 AM
This is actually pretty likely in the PG. I have had games there recently where even I want to concede, just so I can get more games in. But I stick it out to help the newer/ slower players learn.

Good for you, Xenavire. Not all of us are as patient... :D

Malakili
05-30-2015, 10:59 AM
Is it lag or is the pace of play just slower? Calm down, make a cup of tea and play the game. If you don't have the attention span to wait 30 seconds while someone makes a play, the game might not be for you.

poizonous
05-30-2015, 11:49 AM
Is it lag or is the pace of play just slower? Calm down, make a cup of tea and play the game. If you don't have the attention span to wait 30 seconds while someone makes a play, the game might not be for you.

Not exactly the proper attitude to take, some people just wanna hop on and play for an hour, and not have to only get 1 game in because their match took 40 minutes, when it only lasted 7 or 8 turns each due to slow playing.

Elwinz
05-30-2015, 12:55 PM
Judguig pvp in this game based on Proving grounds is sooooooo wrong. I have ablast in drafts and playing rock league. Togh its about to end now.

Equipment is not available for obvious reason, somne of equipments just make these cards completly broken. Everyon would play turn 3 win orcs lolz. Evnetualy war amchininsts to counter it ;p

Kami
05-30-2015, 01:34 PM
Once multiplayer games are in, I suspect a lot less complaints about PvP-fun. :P

israel.kendall
05-30-2015, 01:54 PM
Once multiplayer games are in, I suspect a lot less complaints about PvP-fun. :P

Or once a half decent PvP ladder or something is in (which is needed extremely bad)

Diesbudt
05-30-2015, 02:05 PM
Or once a half decent PvP ladder or something is in (which is needed extremely bad)

I agree.

But it will not be in the PG, it will be via tournaments from what they have said, as PG is supposed to be just that, a practice area.

What they should do is have a third option "Ranked Random Battle" and to have that button available you have to pay something like 100 platinum a month or X gold a month to have the option.

That way it more points towards those who want in to such a thing

israel.kendall
05-30-2015, 02:36 PM
I agree.

But it will not be in the PG, it will be via tournaments from what they have said, as PG is supposed to be just that, a practice area.

What they should do is have a third option "Ranked Random Battle" and to have that button available you have to pay something like 100 platinum a month or X gold a month to have the option.

That way it more points towards those who want in to such a thing

Nah, they need both a free and rewarding PvP system IMO

sukebe
05-30-2015, 02:55 PM
pvp is not meant to be free. they have said from the very beginning that the pvp portion of the game is the pay to play portion. expecting a high quality free pvp system seems strange to me.

Diesbudt
05-30-2015, 03:44 PM
Nah, they need both a free and rewarding PvP system IMO

The original intent, and the way the game is and will be is that for rewarding pvp something has to be paid for. That is the design. PvE is the free side. What makes things great for this is the market that can help and allow players to exchange currencies or cards or etc. to help fund pvp. But to do the "real" pvp, not just practice battles with random people or friends, it will require a cost input.

A cost for this design would be vitally important. 1) massive prizes at the end. 2) cheap enough that it doesn't take a huge investment to take part. 3) To keep out new players with weak/bad/starter decks that could cause chaos in the first few ranks of ranking, since RNG does exist.

Malakili
05-30-2015, 04:40 PM
Not exactly the proper attitude to take, some people just wanna hop on and play for an hour, and not have to only get 1 game in because their match took 40 minutes, when it only lasted 7 or 8 turns each due to slow playing.

So? I want to play DOTA 2 but often can't find the time to commit to an entire captain's mode game. That's not the game's fault. The game isn't for me. I don't play it anymore. Such is life.

poizonous
05-30-2015, 05:15 PM
So? I want to play DOTA 2 but often can't find the time to commit to an entire captain's mode game. That's not the game's fault. The game isn't for me. I don't play it anymore. Such is life.

2 completely different scenarios, 1 game REQUIRES a long time span, HEX does not require it if both players play fast. Yes this is due to mostly newer players still learning but to say this and DOTA Captains Mode are similar is ridiculous

israel.kendall
05-30-2015, 06:16 PM
The original intent, and the way the game is and will be is that for rewarding pvp something has to be paid for. That is the design. PvE is the free side. What makes things great for this is the market that can help and allow players to exchange currencies or cards or etc. to help fund pvp. But to do the "real" pvp, not just practice battles with random people or friends, it will require a cost input.

A cost for this design would be vitally important. 1) massive prizes at the end. 2) cheap enough that it doesn't take a huge investment to take part. 3) To keep out new players with weak/bad/starter decks that could cause chaos in the first few ranks of ranking, since RNG does exist.

You misunderstand what I mean by "rewarding". Sleeves are rewarding, a little number next to your name is rewarding (rank), a chatvatar is rewarding, even simply having a good game is rewarding, etc.

Malakili
05-30-2015, 06:51 PM
2 completely different scenarios, 1 game REQUIRES a long time span, HEX does not require it if both players play fast. Yes this is due to mostly newer players still learning but to say this and DOTA Captains Mode are similar is ridiculous

I don't really see the issue. 1) If it's the proving grounds the game means nothing and you can quit whenever you want. 2) Any game that DOES mean something actually will take about an hour of time commitment in advance. Sure, the game might not go to time, but you need to set enough time aside in case it does.

So, really, I think my analogy works just fine.

There is really nothing more to say about it. Either you're can and are willing or you can't and/or aren't willing to sit down and play a game with the pacing of Hex. I'm not going to get all broken up over a guy that thinks the game is too slow.

Yoss
05-30-2015, 09:47 PM
You misunderstand what I mean by "rewarding". Sleeves are rewarding, a little number next to your name is rewarding (rank), a chatvatar is rewarding, even simply having a good game is rewarding, etc.

Yeah, I envision a free PvP ladder whose only bonus is a "congrats to you" shout out and maybe an account level achievement. Not even sleeves.

israel.kendall
05-30-2015, 09:54 PM
Yeah, I envision a free PvP ladder whose only bonus is a "congrats to you" shout out and maybe an account level achievement. Not even sleeves.

Not my ideal setup, but surely better than the nothing we have now.

Yoss
05-30-2015, 09:59 PM
Not my ideal setup, but surely better than the nothing we have now.

Even if the shout out was that you got your name up in the weekly?

israel.kendall
05-31-2015, 05:56 AM
Even if the shout out was that you got your name up in the weekly?

Not very appealing to me personally. Your name up on a post will be maybe noticed and forgotten. With something like a sleeve or chatvatar people will know your accomplishments from seeing those. I think there are lots of creative things that could be done, but would be happy with just a ranking number with good matchmaking, as it would provide better matchups and incentive than PG. And I see no reason not to provide a sleeve reward. Sleeves and ranking itself are enough to drive a healthy constructed PvP environment.

dbug
05-31-2015, 02:49 PM
pvp is not meant to be free. they have said from the very beginning that the pvp portion of the game is the pay to play portion. expecting a high quality free pvp system seems strange to me.

But you already paid for the cards you have to bring to be competitive. No need for additional cost if there are no rewards.

A ladder is just a system, where you can play against player at your level, which you can't at the proving ground. Maybe this will hurt constructed 8 player tournaments, but sure it will not hurt the drafts. And IMO the game needs some form of "free" competive PVP to appeal to players in the beginning.

Axle
05-31-2015, 02:53 PM
I wonder what happened to the 1v1 queue band-aid for constructed that Chark mentioned. I would play the shit out of that until a ranked ladder.

Xenavire
05-31-2015, 02:56 PM
I wonder what happened to the 1v1 queue band-aid for constructed that Chark mentioned. I would play the shit out of that until a ranked ladder.

Well, there hasn't been a new patch since he mentioned it, and no more discussion, so who knows? Could go either way - could be next patch, could be weeks/months later. Lets just hope for sooner.

Yoss
05-31-2015, 08:18 PM
Well, there hasn't been a new patch since he mentioned it, and no more discussion, so who knows? Could go either way - could be next patch, could be weeks/months later. Lets just hope for sooner.

Tourney queues do not require client change, so far as I'm aware. In which case the only reason it's not done is that Chark is too busy taking all our gold.

israel.kendall
05-31-2015, 08:39 PM
Tourney queues do not require client change, so far as I'm aware. In which case the only reason it's not done is that Chark is too busy taking all our gold.

He needs the gold to build the machine that does the thing, Yoss.

Xenavire
06-01-2015, 03:09 AM
Tourney queues do not require client change, so far as I'm aware. In which case the only reason it's not done is that Chark is too busy taking all our gold.

Actually, I believe adding a new queue is very different to enabling/disabling an existing queue.

Gwaer
06-01-2015, 06:46 AM
Actually, I believe adding a new queue is very different to enabling/disabling an existing queue.

Chark said it's trivial to add a new queue like the one we are talking about. Maybe we'll see something like this after set three starts to get a little stale but before set four. This upcoming patch is just so huge they probably didn't want to mess with additional variables.

Tazelbain
06-01-2015, 06:59 AM
I am really surprised they let PvP languish like this.

Gwaer
06-01-2015, 07:11 AM
I am really surprised they let PvP languish like this.

I think it's just part of the price of beta. They're behind schedule and were expecting to have a release sooner. Now that the idea for this queue is on their radar hopefully we'll see it in the future. I think some of the concern is definitely losing even more people from draft queues and having them fire even less. It's a complicated problem. I think I would like to see special draft weekends with different formats over this particular queue. But that's probably just because I'm a big fan of draft.

Xenavire
06-01-2015, 07:15 AM
Chark said it's trivial to add a new queue like the one we are talking about. Maybe we'll see something like this after set three starts to get a little stale but before set four. This upcoming patch is just so huge they probably didn't want to mess with additional variables.

I didn't say it wasn't trivial, just that it may require a client side patch to implement (and the idea was brought forward after the most recent patch.)

And you are right, other factors could be at play that make the distinction completely moot.

Gwaer
06-01-2015, 07:16 AM
It doesn't require a client side patch.

Xenavire
06-01-2015, 07:24 AM
It doesn't require a client side patch.

Do we have a quote on that? And do we know that there isn't some sort of unseen block? Seems a little strange to claim that with what seems to be 100% certainty, but if you are absolutely certain, I will drop it.

Gwaer
06-01-2015, 07:27 AM
I'm absolutely certain.

Axle
06-01-2015, 07:28 AM
It doesn't require a patch to make it so we don't get the VIP cards out of VIP. And duplicating a queue then editing costs/rewards is a thing too. Makes sense.

Xenavire
06-01-2015, 07:31 AM
It doesn't require a patch to make it so we don't get the VIP cards out of VIP. And duplicating a queue then editing costs/rewards is a thing too. Makes sense.

Even if I think there still could be a block stopping the queue from going up (and I have a suspicion as to what, although Gwaer essentially covered that) I am already able to say that the VIP rewards aren't going out because the data is not in the client and absolutely would need a client patch (and they are saving the next patch for set 3. They have no reason to risk bugs by jumping the gun.)

Axle
06-01-2015, 07:44 AM
I'm saying they had to make it so we don't get the old cards. The reward text of Cluckodon/Goremaster was exactly the same however.

Xenavire
06-01-2015, 07:46 AM
I'm saying they had to make it so we don't get the old cards. The reward text of Cluckodon/Goremaster was exactly the same however.

Oh, you meant it like that? Well it is always easier to remove something than to add it, but thats a fair point.