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Yoss
06-08-2015, 12:22 PM
This is from last week, but was new to me:
http://www.reddit.com/r/hextcg/comments/388ule/lawsuit_update_trade_dress_wotcs_response_to_czes/

Talking trade dress. Still seems to me like a rather weak case for MTG. See side-by-side image below:
http://i.imgur.com/oLGBHRi.jpg

EDIT:
For those new to the discussion or just needing a refresher, here are some old summary articles of the total case from actual lawyers:
http://www.cardboardconnection.com/n...-wizards-coast
http://www.quietspeculation.com/2014/05/understanding-the-wizards-v-hex-lawsuit-in-plain-english/

Xenavire
06-08-2015, 12:26 PM
As far as I am aware, the last thread was shut down, so just be careful. I have no idea what the current policy is on discussing the lawsuit, so those that want to be safe shouldn't do it here.

Axle
06-08-2015, 12:31 PM
No need for a new topic on this. Not to mention it's a week old stuff.

Tazelbain
06-08-2015, 12:32 PM
Ya, this is a subject left to third party boards.

Yoss
06-08-2015, 12:50 PM
As far as I am aware, the last thread was shut down, so just be careful. I have no idea what the current policy is on discussing the lawsuit, so those that want to be safe shouldn't do it here.

I was not aware of any rules about it. Is there any post about this being restricted? I'm not a fan of secret rules for censorship. Why are you warning that I should be worried about my safety? If the guy who's in every thread at all hours of the day doesn't even know what the forum rules are, there's a serious problem with the way the boards are being run.

nicosharp
06-08-2015, 12:54 PM
Don't mind Xen. He's officially unofficial :p
Thanks for the card comparison, but I was hoping for new news, not 6 day old news.

Yoss
06-08-2015, 12:58 PM
Don't mind Xen. He's officially unofficial :p
Yeah, and as others have pointed out, his forum title makes him seem to have official credibility that isn't actually there. On the other hand, he does usually have a grain of truth buried in his comments, even if I can't always separate out what's official and what's speculation.


Thanks for the card comparison, but I was hoping for new news, not 6 day old news.

It was new news to me, since I only read the reddit now and then, and since people don't put it up here 6 days ago.

Xenavire
06-08-2015, 12:59 PM
I was not aware of any rules about it. Is there any post about this being restricted? I'm not a fan of secret rules for censorship. Why are you warning that I should be worried about my safety? If the guy who's in every thread at all hours of the day doesn't even know what the forum rules are, there's a serious problem with the way the boards are being run.

It is a friendly reminder because the last thread was closed, and someone has been banned, and I'd rather not have any reason to have repeats. There is a discussion happening elsewhere, lets leave it there to be certain.

And Nico is right - I speak unoffically all the time, but I have to be careful because my position itself makes me official. Double edged sword. :p

Gwaer
06-08-2015, 01:03 PM
Xenavire is really bad about his wording.

Lots of threads on lots of topics have been closed, that doesn't mean those topics aren't allowed just that the thread got out of hand.

A mod might step in and say otherwise. But until that point no one should be speculating about what isn't allowed, just keep it civil and stay near the topic.

To say basically the same thing I said on reddit. And to get back on topic, the trade dress claims are moronic. Trade dress cannot include any functional elements. Pretty much all of the elements they highlight in their rebut are functional. They're trying to conflate trade dress and IP/Copyright. It may or may not get thrown out right this second, because the court might need to have how all those elements are functional explained to them. But this portion of the case is kind of boring since it's so clear.

WolfCrypt
06-08-2015, 01:07 PM
Um well if you guys don't wanna talk about on here for publicity sake and not getting non members/newbies reading forums to be deterred by this thread can some one pm so we can talk about it elsewhere? I'm concerned for Hex's victory and I don't grasp what's the argument that reddit posted last week.. Dress code?? Um.. I'm confused.

MatWith1T
06-08-2015, 01:15 PM
Ask on Reddit, you'll get a much more meaningful conversation over there. I'd be happy to get into the nitty gritty

Yoss
06-08-2015, 01:17 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_dress
Trade dress is a legal term of art that generally refers to characteristics of the visual appearance of a product or its packaging (or even the design of a building) that signify the source of the product to consumers.[1] Trade dress is a form of intellectual property.

The lawsuit has 3 parts, one of which is Trade Dress. WotC claims that Hex has stolen trade dress elements (e.g. advertising/art/aesthetics) from Magic.

nicosharp
06-08-2015, 01:18 PM
And Nico is right - I speak unoffically all the time, but I have to be careful because my position itself makes me official. Double edged sword. :p
Didn't mean that negatively at all. You always have good infos. And this makes sense that it would not be discussed in great detail on their forums.
Reddit already has some good discussion going on the subject. Helped me clarify some misunderstanding.

WolfCrypt
06-08-2015, 01:19 PM
Ask on Reddit, you'll get a much more meaningful conversation over there. I'd be happy to get into the nitty gritty

I don't wanna join reddit just to ask a question :P

Xenavire
06-08-2015, 01:22 PM
Didn't mean that negatively at all. You always have good infos. And this makes sense that it would not be discussed in great detail on their forums.
Reddit already has some good discussion going on the subject. Helped me clarify some misunderstanding.

Well, you may not mean it negatively, but it has gotten people upset at me before, so it isn't all fun and games. And I do want to reiterate that I don't think it is wise to discuss here, but I have no knowledge of a ban or rule to say it isn't allowed. My gut just says 'better left alone', and I say that with zero official word to back me up, so people can choose how to act on their own. I am not the forum police, just a concerned passerby. :p

Yoss
06-08-2015, 01:22 PM
I don't wanna join reddit just to ask a question :P

Yeah, I'd prefer to not have yet another site to track.

Yoss
06-08-2015, 01:23 PM
Well, you may not mean it negatively, but it has gotten people upset at me before, so it isn't all fun and games. And I do want to reiterate that I don't think it is wise to discuss here, but I have no knowledge of a ban or rule to say it isn't allowed. My gut just says 'better left alone', and I say that with zero official word to back me up, so people can choose how to act on their own. I am not the forum police, just a concerned passerby. :p

If you're talking about the banning I think you are, I doubt very much that lawsuit updates had anything to do with it.

Phenteo
06-08-2015, 01:25 PM
We don't ban players from talking about the lawsuit. The reason a user was banned was due to other issues. There are no secret rules in policing the forums.

Xenavire
06-08-2015, 01:26 PM
If you're talking about the banning I think you are, I doubt very much that lawsuit updates had anything to do with it.

I never got the full story on that one, but the timing was strange. I didn't inquire and wasn't really interested though. Anyway, I think I have said enough here, I am going to step out and let nature take it's course.


We don't ban players from talking about the lawsuit. The reason a user was banned was due to other issues. There are no secret rules in policing the forums.

Well thanks for clearing that up. I stand by what I said (it seems unwise, it lead to unsavoury ends every time) but good to have something official to refer to for future.

Yoss
06-08-2015, 01:27 PM
We don't ban players from talking about the lawsuit. The reason a user was banned was due to other issues. There are no secret rules in policing the forums.

Thanks for the note. :)

Maybe now we can talk the actually topic.

WolfCrypt
06-08-2015, 01:29 PM
Okay now that's settled can someone explain in Laymen's terms what the heck that link in OP talking about??

Gwaer
06-08-2015, 01:36 PM
To be perfectly honest, there are biases on these forums. There are also biases on reddit. I would not say either place has more worthwhile discussions on any topic. If you want the most bias free worthwhile discussion on trade dress go to Google and type in what is trade dress then read several articles by several attorneys on the topic. And try to avoid any subjects that you're biased toward in their articles.

Any way I explain trade dress my complete disdain for Hasbro and their actions during this lawsuit is well known. That colors any explanation I would give about it. But basically the orange color of the tide laundry detergent is trade dress. That color is easily identifiable with their brand and if another company created a laundry detergent with a very similar color it could be a trade dress violation. Trade dress is 100% a consumer protection feature of the law. It is not to save businesses money or competition but to stop companies from exploiting consumers by being mistaken for another's brand.

Now if you take that same example and someone discovers that storing laundry detergent in that exact shade of orange container causes light to interact with the chemicals in such a way to increase or prolong their potency, it immediately is no longer a trade dress issue. Now that color has function. It doesn't matter how strongly tied their brand was to it.

RCDv57
06-08-2015, 01:42 PM
WotC has sued HXE for stealing their game.
They believe this for three main reasons

One of those reasons is that WotC thinks that Hex cards looks too much like MTG cards. (Trade dress)

Now the Lawyers are fighting over how valid that claim is.
It is an incredibly complicated subject, with lots of rules that I do not understand.

MatWith1T
06-08-2015, 01:46 PM
Okay now that's settled can someone explain in Laymen's terms what the heck that link in OP talking about??

If I told you I was looking at a roundish laundry detergent bottle that is bright orange with a blue cap, you could probably guess I was looking at a bottle of Tide. The color scheme of Tide cannot be copyrighted or patented, but it does create a distinctive, recognizable look and feel for its product, and that is protected under the concept of Trade Dress. If I made my own competing detergent and copied their look, they would accuse me of intentionally trying to deceive potential customers that my product is their own, and they could sue me. The important thing to remember for the next part is that Trade Dress does NOT protect things that actually serve a functional purpose (like Tide's ez-pour spout for example), just aesthetic things that create a look/feel/etc

Similarly, MtG claims that the aesthetic way that Hex cards are designed mimic the distinct look and feel of MtG cards by illegally copying aesthetic features like colored borders, placement of art and text boxes, card names, and a few other things.

The latest legal filing from Hex is not trying to prove or disprove the similarities, but rather claiming that many of the things that MtG claims are Trade Dress violations actually provide a functional value, and they base their claim on the fact that MtG listed all these things in their patents, and that patents are for functional things. Therefore MtG is attempting to claim that something is both functional and non-functional, and is attempting to sue Hex 2 ways for the same thing, which they should not be able to do.

The latest filing from MtG refutes this claim, saying that just because something was described in a patent, doesn't mean that was the actual thing that was being patented, and therefore the Trade Dress features are still non-functional even if they appear in a patent filing for something else.

WolfCrypt
06-08-2015, 01:46 PM
I admit the gameplay is similar but there are tons of games that stole resources from magic and defense/attack is common feature and 99% of all TCG's use 'exhaust'

Gwaer
06-08-2015, 01:50 PM
I like how we both went for tide. Originally I was going with fire trucks. No one familiar with tcgs can deny that having the title and cost of cards at the top is entirely functional, colored borders are also functional, the standard for 'is this functional' in regards trade dress is quite low.

This has nothing to do with game play.

Svenn
06-08-2015, 01:53 PM
I admit the gameplay is similar but there are tons of games that stole resources from magic and defense/attack is common feature and 99% of all TCG's use 'exhaust'
Trade dress is the cosmetic appearance, not the function. It's how the cards look that's in contention for this particular part, not how the game plays. WOTC says that Hex cards look too much like MTG cards which could be confusing for a consumer.

RCDv57
06-08-2015, 01:56 PM
I like how we both went for tide. Originally I was going with fire trucks. No one familiar with tcgs can deny that having the title and cost of cards at the top is entirely functional, colored borders are also functional, the standard for 'is this functional' in regards trade dress is quite low.

This has nothing to do with game play.

Trade dress is the cosmetic appearance, not the function. It's how the cards look that's in contention for this particular part, not how the game plays. WOTC says that Hex cards look too much like MTG cards which could be confusing for a consumer.


Do you think that the Extended art feature will affect the lawsuit?

WolfCrypt
06-08-2015, 01:57 PM
I find that Wiz doesn't have enough grounds for this. The card design is not that similair and I frankly think Hex looks cooler..

RCDv57
06-08-2015, 01:58 PM
I find that Wiz doesn't have enough grounds for this. The card design is not that similair and I frankly think Hex looks cooler..

That is why I am not worried.
That is also why WotC is worried.

WolfCrypt
06-08-2015, 02:01 PM
Well I hope Hex becomes as popular as Magic but I mean I'd kinda hate for Wiz to go bankrupt... Can I like competing companies??

Xenavire
06-08-2015, 02:02 PM
Well I hope Hex becomes as popular as Magic but I mean I'd kinda hate for Wiz to go bankrupt... Can I like competing companies??

Of course you can. You can like competing products, or companies, or anything. Thats free will and choice for you. :p

Xexist
06-08-2015, 02:03 PM
Yoss for one I am glad you posted this. I dont follow reddit and am very interested in the subect :D

When the lawsuit first announced I was very concerned, I honestly am not anymore.

Hex will survive and do fine, whatever the lawsuit outcome is.

Gwaer
06-08-2015, 02:04 PM
Honestly I don't think EA'S will affect anything. Hasbro went for trade dress solely to try to expand the legal definition of trade dress. What hex has done has always been legal, it's one of the reasons the gaming industry is so great Imo. New devs can take all of the best things about precious products iterate on them to make something better. Then eventually someone else will come along and do that again.

They are basically hoping for a hail Mary, that the court will conflate their three separate complaints into one giant Franken complaint because each on its face is not an issue. But If trade dress were more like copyright it would be an issue and the entire games industry could sue one another.

WolfCrypt
06-08-2015, 02:05 PM
Well I hope Hex doesn't lose though I don't see much support for Wiz's claim. (As in they don't have strong grounds to sue beyond Hex is a competent compitition XD)

MatWith1T
06-08-2015, 02:16 PM
Well I hope Hex becomes as popular as Magic but I mean I'd kinda hate for Wiz to go bankrupt... Can I like competing companies??

Wiz ain't going bankrupt anytime soon, and definitely not because of Hex. If you are a masochist, you can listen to Hasbro earnings calls for stockholders, where they tout the cash cow that is MtG - it is more profitable than it's ever been.

WolfCrypt
06-08-2015, 02:21 PM
Then why whine bout Hex? And also at my table top convention last week they didn't have a booth they had like three card traders/buyers and a five acre ROOM they don't need to worry bout Hex.

RCDv57
06-08-2015, 02:21 PM
This is America. (at least for WotC and HXE)
In America you can sue anybody for anything.

It would be a very silly thing to do, buuuuuut
I could in fact sue my mother for riding her bicycle to work.

MatWith1T
06-08-2015, 02:27 PM
Then why whine bout Hex? And also at my table top convention last week they didn't have a booth they had like three card traders/buyers and a five acre ROOM they don't need to worry bout Hex.

Two reasons...
1) The best way to make sure you continue to make a ton of money is to eliminate any competition that may one day grow to significantly impact your earnings

2) One of the requirements of having intellectual property is that you must defend it, or else you lose your claim to it. If you have a patent and let 100 people make clones of it, and then decide to sue the 101st guy that does it, they have a legal defense claim that you don't really 'own' that anymore. It's a little more complicated than that, but that's the laymen version. tl;dr, you can lose your intellectual property claims if you don't actually try to defend them

Axle
06-08-2015, 02:29 PM
2 hours and this thread has gotten almost 5 pages already. It's only a matter of time until "expert lawyers" start chiming in and the drama from the last thread begins again.

Xexist
06-08-2015, 02:30 PM
Two reasons...
1) The best way to make sure you continue to make a ton of money is to eliminate any competition that may one day grow to significantly impact your earnings

2) One of the requirements of having intellectual property is that you must defend it, or else you lose your claim to it. If you have a patent and let 100 people make clones of it, and then decide to sue the 101st guy that does it, they have a legal defense claim that you don't really 'own' that anymore. It's a little more complicated than that, but that's the laymen version. tl;dr, you can lose your intellectual property claims if you don't actually try to defend them

Being realistic though, its mostly #1 :p

TOOT
06-08-2015, 02:37 PM
I have received 2 infant toys for my 7 month old as gifts that were made by Hasbro. I returned them both out of spite.

KEEP FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT FOLKS!!

janome
06-08-2015, 02:38 PM
I am catching up on this lawsuit thing. One of the complaints is trade dress, which won't hold up, what are the other two?

MatWith1T
06-08-2015, 02:40 PM
I am catching up on this lawsuit thing. One of the complaints is trade dress, which won't hold up, what are the other two?

Copyright and Patent infringements... all are essentially Intellectual Property violations, but each aspect falls under its own category with its own laws.

Xenavire
06-08-2015, 03:01 PM
It would be a very silly thing to do, buuuuuut
I could in fact sue my mother for riding her bicycle to work.

You Americans are silly. And I hope someone, somewhere, has done exactly this - although it would also make me facepalm repeatedly while I was wetting myself laughing.

No really, I just see this image of a lawyer chasing a slightly older woman on a bicycle trying to serve her the legal papers...

Zophie
06-08-2015, 03:04 PM
I could in fact sue my mother for riding her bicycle to work.

Yeah the nerve of some people... I hope your case is successful and you get full compensation for the emotional damages this has caused you and your family. ;)

Saeijou
06-08-2015, 03:26 PM
You Americans are silly.

seriously... since i'm living in the US, i changed my life in many ways, because of fears... not only suing... it's about getting fired, because you say "f*ck" and annoy someone at work...

ridiculous....

Yoss
06-08-2015, 03:29 PM
For those new to the discussion or just needing a refresher, here's a pretty good summary from an actual lawyer:
http://www.cardboardconnection.com/news/law-cards-cryptozoic-rants-wizards-coast

Saeijou
06-08-2015, 03:31 PM
For those new to the discussion or just needing a refresher, here's a pretty good summary from an actual lawyer:
http://www.cardboardconnection.com/news/law-cards-cryptozoic-rants-wizards-coast

a little bit outdated, but gives a great overview. thanks yoss

Gwaer
06-08-2015, 03:50 PM
Mat's point two about having to defend ip or lose it is not true. The only thing you have to defend is trademark law. Patents and copyright don't care if you have let other things slide, you're allowed to selectively defend them. Trademark the only risk is something becoming the generic term for something. Like bandaids. That used to be a trademark. But it was so successful that they lost their trademark on the name since it became the generic term for small adhesive bandages

WolfCrypt
06-08-2015, 03:56 PM
After reading that I find the case is very weak. I hope Hex doesn't lose and are forced to overhaul the entire game. And that blogger I feel mighta been paid.

MatWith1T
06-08-2015, 04:12 PM
Mat's point two about having to defend ip or lose it is not true. The only thing you have to defend is trademark law. Patents and copyright don't care if you have let other things slide, you're allowed to selectively defend them. Trademark the only risk is something becoming the generic term for something. Like bandaids. That used to be a trademark. But it was so successful that they lost their trademark on the name since it became the generic term for small adhesive bandages

Thanks for the clarification, I thought it applied to patents as well.

Zophie
06-08-2015, 04:21 PM
Mat's point two about having to defend ip or lose it is not true. The only thing you have to defend is trademark law. Patents and copyright don't care if you have let other things slide, you're allowed to selectively defend them. Trademark the only risk is something becoming the generic term for something. Like bandaids. That used to be a trademark. But it was so successful that they lost their trademark on the name since it became the generic term for small adhesive bandages

This stuff is interesting to me. Here's some more examples of generic and genericized trademarks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericized_trademarks

Xexist
06-08-2015, 04:30 PM
Mat's point two about having to defend ip or lose it is not true. The only thing you have to defend is trademark law. Patents and copyright don't care if you have let other things slide, you're allowed to selectively defend them. Trademark the only risk is something becoming the generic term for something. Like bandaids. That used to be a trademark. But it was so successful that they lost their trademark on the name since it became the generic term for small adhesive bandages

Kleenex another big/obvious one

Yoss
06-08-2015, 04:34 PM
that blogger I feel mighta been paid.

Actually, they stole at least some of those quotes directly off these forums, and from people who are very much in favor of Hex. That's part of what makes it so pathetic once you know the context: these people obviously are NOT confused about whether or not WotC makes or endorses Hex.


For example, here's one they stole:

I'm not very worried about calling it a "clone" or not. But it is VERY similar to Magic.

I may be wrong but I feel that people who say "it's not THAT similar" or "any 2 games in the same genre will be similar" probably don't know many TCGs. I have played many TCGs, paper and digital, and none of them come as close to Magic as HEX. Yes, there are some digital tricks (most of them could be made to work in Magic, although with clumsier bookeeping required) and a slightly different resource system, but otherwise is almost like a new skin over the same game.

So the thing is, if HEX cannot be called a Magic clone, no other TCG can. HEX may not be a "clone" but it's the closest to one we have in the market.

(In fact, as is the case with many others who opined in this thread, it is exactly the similarity to Magic that attracted me to HEX. If there existed a really good version of MTGO I probably would be much less interested in HEX.)

Zophie
06-08-2015, 04:34 PM
Kleenex another big/obvious one

Last I heard Kleenex is still a valid trademark, though it's on the brink. The Kimberly-Clark Corp in Neenah, Wisconsin is the current registered owner of the Kleenex trademark (and incidentally I happen to know a guy who works for them :))

Stok3d
06-08-2015, 04:58 PM
As far as I am aware, the last thread was shut down, so just be careful.

Threads aren't closed because of topics... they are closed for CoC violations. It should be quite obvious this topic isn't taboo... there has been a sticky on it for over a year in this forum.

Lets take this thread as an example of closure. While this is a topic may be thought of as controversial, I find especially important to discuss. However, the way the thread itself was created is in clear violation of CoC: http://www.cryptozoic.com/coc#Cross Linking Threads - Linking to threads from other forums.

Please don't make threads like this. Closed.