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magic_gazz
06-15-2015, 01:33 PM
Saw this post in my facebook feed from someone I am not directly friends with and it got me thinking. I hope they don't mind me sharing some of what they said.

"Haha, oh dear, I never thought I'd be saying these words

Magic the Gathering Online is cheaper, or at least comparable cost, to play Standard constructed in than Hex is. Methinks something went wrong somewhere there"



"It's already been around 2 and isn't out of Beta yet. They've apparently got 7 years of sets and storyline already in the tank

The only thing which should stop the game is an unlikely MTG wipeout in the lawsuit but this really is worrying. Hex has been touted since Alpha as a cheaper and better put together alternative to MTGO

Right now I don't believe that's the case. Constructed's just as expensive to get into, the "Daily" style events are dead despite being criminally awesome value and in 2 years there's been 1 new set a 1 very limited PvE encounter

I think that there are currently too many people playing Hex who see it as a business opportunity more than a game"



"There's an AA Rare on Hex which is currently going for $90, for a game in Beta which currently has a lawsuit on it

There are 4 "Standard" staples which cost $20 each, which is the cost of 12 boosters on Hex. The equivalent card on MTGO should cost $40. Currently there are 0 Standard cards on MTGO which cost even $20, it's ridiculous really but that's the secondary market for you"



Now he does go on to say he really enjoys the game and is happy to spend money on entertainment and because of the secondary market its not dead money like F2P games, but it does raise the question of why our secondary market is so inflated.

Is it down to a group of people trying to control the market and force card prices up?
Is it down to lack of supply?
Do Hex players just have more money to spend so don't care as much?

The fact the card prices are so high yet the daily constructed events don't fire is kind of odd. If no one is using the cards apart from the Five Shards events and VIPs, What is keeping the card prices so high?

nicosharp
06-15-2015, 01:39 PM
Just bad perspective.
Prices in Hex are cheap.
Constructed in Hex is cheap.
There is no incentive yet to play Constructed - that will come soon with the $100,000 tournament roadmap.
AH prices are actually quite fair, and competitive, and right now still have a minimal impact on the Supply and Demand needs with the small playerbase. The price control is easy to navigate with resources easily accessible to all players with a mind for Constructed play.
Buying Constructed Decks that are top tier in either game, is very expensive. It's much more expensive in MTG. I'm not sure what example this individual is using, or why you are convinced they are right....

The Bot controlled operation in MTG:O is depressing and only rewards a small % of the playerbase.

Stop worrying about the marketing model and the AH. It all gets better as the game gets more F2P. That will come with PvE. They've had two years, but we still aren't in a game state that truly embodies the marketing model.

Scammanator
06-15-2015, 01:44 PM
I'd like to think it's partly the unusually high proportion of collectors in our player base. Because it's still in Beta, a much larger proportion of the dedicated players are thinking in the long term. It's not just that the Constructed players want the staples, but they have to complete with the collectors for them as well. People who want full playsets to draw from for PvE when it's fully available.

Demand is ridiculously high in proportion to the relatively small player base, and the demand for constructed cards isn't just coming from constructed players.

rjselzler
06-15-2015, 01:47 PM
Is it down to a group of people trying to control the market and force card prices up?
Is it down to lack of supply?
Do Hex players just have more money to spend so don't care as much?


My thoughts, since this is really the heart of what's going on here.

1). I don't think so. This strategy rarely works long term and is a good way to lose a significant amount of plat, from my experience.
2). Shouldn't be. Drafts are firing (unlike other queues, which you mention) reliably, so the secondary market should have a steady supply. I think that few people selling would be more likely due to the awful experience that is beta AH. Also, I think Hex has a higher percentage of collectors than aspiring infinite drafters. I could be way off base there.
3). Maybe? I think that Hexers are more apt to sit on a collection of fun cards than your average player driving similar economies in other games.

Overall, I think the fact that you can crack a $2 pack and have a shot at a bunch of $20+ cards is not a bad thing. I see that as great value for someone starting out!

Tazelbain
06-15-2015, 02:08 PM
There are 4 "Standard" staples which cost $20 each, which is the cost of 12 boosters on Hex. The equivalent card on MTGO should cost $40. Currently there are 0 Standard cards on MTGO which cost even $20, it's ridiculous really but that's the secondary market for you"

One key difference, the 4 cards are chasiest cards not just for "standard" but for the entire game of Hex. Compare them to 4 chasiest cards in the entire history of Magic, I suspect AoD is damn cheep.

RamzaBehoulve
06-15-2015, 02:15 PM
I really don't think MTGO should be mentionned in any kind of discussion about digital TCG considering how bad and outdated the client is, but whatever.

People are investing in Hex because it's much better than MTGO and almost everyone can see that. We also seem to have a very high amount of players who want a full or close to full playet of all cards because MTG itself showed us how valuable older sets become in the long run.

We need to do everything we can as a community to get those last few MTGO players to come over here. MTGO should just die and be forgotten while MTG live long as the physical TCG we all love(d).

Mokog
06-15-2015, 02:16 PM
Now he does go on to say he really enjoys the game and is happy to spend money on entertainment and because of the secondary market its not dead money like F2P games, but it does raise the question of why our secondary market is so inflated.

Is it down to a group of people trying to control the market and force card prices up?
Is it down to lack of supply?
Do Hex players just have more money to spend so don't care as much?

The fact the card prices are so high yet the daily constructed events don't fire is kind of odd. If no one is using the cards apart from the Five Shards events and VIPs, What is keeping the card prices so high?

Inflated implies that the value should be lower. That implies exact knowledge of existing supply and player desire and we should not fall for the fallacy of pretense of knowledge. People pay what the market will bare and the listed prices are not what always ends up selling.

Our market is not yet large enough nor ripe enough for complex control schemes. You can not efficiently pull value out of the Hex economy making control schemes less appealing as well. Do people try to keep some cards inflated? Sometimes for small periods and they are generally unsuccessful. Prices eventually shift against the scheme and the actor lost platinum if they over invested. (They could be an amazing market timer but you need full transactional knowledge of the activity and know what to look for to find out. We have limited knowledge.)

Hex is cheaper to draft and play than MTGO or paper Magic. The raw pricing is cheaper and when you factor in gold and arena, you can draft for free with enough (though extremely high) time investment. If you do not follow the numerous pieces of advise from the community about how to maximize your value, then Hex is comparable in pricing to MTGO and Magic.

Considering the community has created an active card database in TCGbrowser, Hexprice, and the streamer givaways and places like fiveshards.com and kept active with new content and community driven tournaments; Hex has a passionate and generous community.

We care and we know TCGs are an investment of time and money. Price? Who has time to worry about the cost? We got games to play and spoilers to read!

wolzarg
06-15-2015, 02:26 PM
The fact is that he is also incorrect there is a card that costs 19 currently and another that costs 20+.

MatWith1T
06-15-2015, 02:36 PM
Single card prices are high (maybe counter-intuitively) because the game is so new.

1) MtG has a steady rotation of both new players and players leaving the game. Cards are valued not only to the cost of a pack and its relative rarity, but also to the value of $0 if an exiting player simply leaves a card to rot in his collection. Hex's secondary market has no representation from the 'willing to sell at any cost' supply line, which would otherwise keep in check the prices active players ask for the same card.

2) With so few sets out, the constructed chase cards are few and far between, as the meta is somewhat limited. Cards are either 'must have' or 'no need,' creating a mountain of cards selling for the minimum, and a 'maybe-higher-than-there-ought-to-be' number of cards selling in that $20 range, and then precious little in that happy medium $5-10 range.

As more sets come out, the variety of competitive decks will increase... meaning we can see our opponent is playing mono-blue and we won't necessarily assume it's based around bouncing to buy time for Reese, there could be any number of mono-blue strategies we have to plan for - if you want to make a mono-blue tempo deck, you can buy five or six different bombs to build your deck around, and prices will reflect that variety.

magic_gazz
06-15-2015, 02:45 PM
I think the collector part may have hit the nail on the head.

The % of people in Hex who have/are collecting a full set is probably a lot higher than the number of people trying that in MTGO.

As the player base expands we will get a lot more "realistic" players who don't have that compulsion. I know I have never been a collector until now, but that may be down to the fact that I win a lot more on Hex so can afford it.

Also when the kickstarters supply of stuff dries up I guess some of them might give up on being collectors too. Its probably quite easy for them to get 4 of everything at the moment but that will not last forever unless they can keep their win % up.

magic_gazz
06-15-2015, 02:47 PM
Also I thought of something else.

Maybe the prices are high because drafts are so cheap. The need to sell your cards to fund the next draft is not as high because the draft only costs about $5, so its easy just to throw another $5 in and keep the cards.

Khazrakh
06-15-2015, 02:57 PM
First of all and most importantly - Hex is a lot cheaper than MTG. The most expensive Hex card so far is CMK AA which is traded at around 80$ - go and compare that to the Power 9 cards. Maybe you can't compare their power level (thank the gods) but they are on par regarding their rarity. Some years down the road, once Hex really went off, it'll be super hard to even buy one and the prices will go way up.

Sure some constructed bombs are pretty expensive, but that's because a) we only have that many bombs so far and b) we still have a rather small community with a lot of collectors/completionists like myself. Again, this is going to correct itself once Hex goes big as well as once we get more sets with more viable T1 / T1,5 decks.

Regarding the "business opportunity" - while I hope nobody around here thinks of Hex as his retirement plan, there still is a huge value in playing right now and I'm rather confident I'll be able to steadily play and complete my playsets for years to come without having to spend again anytime soon.
While it's true that it's rather dangerous to try and control the market of highly asked for constructed cards, there are some cards that can only increase in value over time. None of the AA cards will ever be reprinted so we have a fixed amount of those cards floating around and considering how small the community still is compared to what it's going to be in some years there aren't too many out there.

Personally I've hoarded hundreds of those AA cards and I know others have as well. I don't care if I can't sell them for a profit right now, I don't even care if they'll be worth less in 6 months or even a year because in the long run, their value is going to increase and they'll be paying for my Hex addiction for quite a while once they do :)

plaguedealer
06-15-2015, 02:57 PM
People who want a full playset for pve purposes also play a role in it.

TOOT
06-15-2015, 02:58 PM
He is also wrong about the cards' value.

The "staples" do not cost $20 each. AA CMK is also worth nowhere near $90 either.

israel.kendall
06-15-2015, 03:04 PM
There are more money cards in a single HEX set than in any recent MTG set. But this is because there is still such a limited card pool in HEX that it puts more demand on the good stuff. As more sets are introduced people will have more options to build decks with and prices should come down a bit on a lot of cards.

magic_gazz
06-15-2015, 03:24 PM
Guys, we all love Hex, but lets not make terrible arguments to defend things. No one is saying anything bad or putting the game down, so you don't need to jump to its defence.

Comparing cards to Power 9 or Legacy cards is extremely flawed logic. We are talking about current cards that are in print, so lets compare that to current cards in print, not 20 year old cards.

The cost of Vampire King, Reese and Monsuun does seem higher than it should be considering we are buying $2 boosters. That is the equivalent of a $40 card on MTGO, something that does not exist (in standard).

Better to talk about the reasons for this than to try and convince ourselves its not happening.

magic_gazz
06-15-2015, 03:27 PM
It is also possible that what we have is an improved system.

Is it more fun to do a draft and be able to sell your cards for enough plat to buy in again (or close to it) or is it more fun to do a draft and get 2 tix for your cards.

Can we maintain this sort of system or will the prices trend down by such a large margin in the future?

TOOT
06-15-2015, 03:44 PM
The price is completely wrong, this is the reason for the disparity and something you are overlooking.

You are taking Reese etc and applying a 10x multiplier I am assuming for it's $ price. That multiplier should be 5, maybe 6. If you do it that way, the prices are more in-line with MtG and what the top tier should be for the chase cards of a set, similar to MtG.

Nobody in their right mind would/should be buying Reese's for $20. Yea, some clueless people probably do from 5shards or other "stores" but the prices are terrible.

plaguedealer
06-15-2015, 03:46 PM
PVE is the big wild card imo. Is vampire king's power level comparable to a power nine like time walk , hell no. Could you build a vampire deck that is fun in a dungeon, probably so. PVE is what sets this game from other tcgs. If the PVE is done right, Hex could be huge, which is also a reason people are speculating.

I think one is right in saying that vampire king is expensive for a pvp card game like hex, however there are other factors to consider.

nicosharp
06-15-2015, 03:59 PM
It is also possible that what we have is an improved system.

Can we maintain this sort of system or will the prices trend down by such a large margin in the future?
This is a far superior system. Let me note a few things.

1) Sets are not coming out as quickly as MTG sets. The staples are staples now for longer period of times.
2) Cards retain and maintain value this way as they are released in the current standard format and stay standard longer.
3) Being 100% digital, and 100% player trade, allow both easy management of cards, and easy trade of cards.
4) Card trends do not mean cards real value. For example, you could purchase primal packs for 1800 plat, and grow your collection that way. If you pull a few cards with a "perceived" value of $20+, good for you, you profit. If you draft with your plat to grow your collection, and get lucky, you profit. So on, so forth... I bought my initial playset of Reese for less than 250plat per Reese when it was low in value. Constructed has governed price change, and rarity, but the value was community driven.
5) This game having a PvE element turns a lot of stuff on it's head. Gold has trade value, PvE cards have value, PvP cards have value for PvE specifically. People like "completing" content in PvE. This opens up a new niche of players that want cards, but are not buying them for constructed specifically.

Bottom line is, packs are half the price of MTG.
Primals are amazing and decrease the hit over-time all purchased content has on the player-base.
Competitive play costs half of what it does in MTG.
Players create supply and demand.
Players are hoarding now to anticipate the games success.
The value of cards are perceived, not set.
More players will influence how the economy shapes up.
More content will influence how the economy shapes up.

Prices will only trend down with loss interest.
If Prices trend down, who does that hurt when it happens in the future?
No one but the whales trying to bank on it now.
Don't make this game an investment for profit, and no one loses.
F2P only exists now because people put value on gold at more than $1 per hour.
F2P will continue to exist in some form if this trend continues about people valuing time over grind, and I guarantee you this PvE system will sort itself out for a long-time to come.


The PvE exchange rates also make you put cards Like Reese into perspective. Is he worth $20, or is he worth 20 hours of grinding? or is he worth 1.2 primal packs? or is he worth 10 retail packs?

It is not, why is Reese worth more than most top tier MTG cards? Because MTG has no F2P way to sit down for 20hours and just earn one.

magic_gazz
06-15-2015, 04:12 PM
The price is completely wrong, this is the reason for the disparity and something you are overlooking.

You are taking Reese etc and applying a 10x multiplier I am assuming for it's $ price. That multiplier should be 5, maybe 6. If you do it that way, the prices are more in-line with MtG and what the top tier should be for the chase cards of a set, similar to MtG.

Nobody in their right mind would/should be buying Reese's for $20. Yea, some clueless people probably do from 5shards or other "stores" but the prices are terrible.

This is very flawed.

We have no idea of the "true" value of platinum purchased from outside the game, so we can only work with the official figures. Your numbers seem a bit low as when I sold cards I sold them at about 70% of the price.

If you buy plat from the Hex store and then buy these cards on the AH they cost almost $20.

It is easy to discuss things in these terms as then everyone is on the same page and you would be surprised how many people stick to using official methods rather than scouting around for deals from people they may or may not be able to trust.

magic_gazz
06-15-2015, 04:20 PM
Competitive play costs half of what it does in MTG.


I think this is what he was originally talking about though.

If you walk in with nothing and want to build a top tier Hex deck from scratch and a top tier MTG (standard) deck, the costs are pretty similar.

Are the cheaper decks like Dwarves? Yes, but the same applies to Mono Red.

Take the decks from the blood cup (not my numbers, stole them from another site).
<$50: 0
$50-$100: 2
$100-$150: 1
$150-$200: 1
$200+: 4

Most Expensive Deck: $253.77 (Wastelands B/S Control)
Least Expensive Deck: $71.36 (Entrath Robots)
Average Deck: $182.81

Yes you CAN build them cheaper if you use more efficient means, but those prices are still pretty high considering that people say its cheaper than MTGO.

Drafting is cheaper by a huge margin and there can be no argument on that. But saying Standard constructed is cheaper would be false overall.

Biz
06-15-2015, 04:31 PM
digital & online makes it really easy to just buy everything

if constructed had more gameplay and less waiting, the prices on cards might go even higher than they are now

i think the only thing missing is a way to cash out. their PR was full of "collections having value" and stuff, but if I can't sell plat or cards for US dollars then I'm not sure how that works out.

i'm fortunate enough to have basically gone infinite (largely due to selling AAs), but I can see how the PVP is really expensive for most people

IronPheasant
06-15-2015, 04:33 PM
There are a lot of factors pushing the general price of cards higher than they should be; the chase cards like Reese and Vampire King are actually far closer to their "real" price, in whatever cosmic sense that is.

As mentioned before, as alternatives to existing cards get made (especially being able to make a PvE deck using solely PvE cards), some of the cruddiness is removed from the auction hall, and should the player base grow a bit more, it'll be a bit less of a seller's market.

We don't even have fast dual mana yet. And that's fundamental to being able to play multicolor decks competitively. Ten years from now, we might have half a dozen or more options for it.

israel.kendall
06-15-2015, 04:44 PM
I think this is what he was originally talking about though.

If you walk in with nothing and want to build a top tier Hex deck from scratch and a top tier MTG (standard) deck, the costs are pretty similar.

Are the cheaper decks like Dwarves? Yes, but the same applies to Mono Red.

Take the decks from the blood cup (not my numbers, stole them from another site).
<$50: 0
$50-$100: 2
$100-$150: 1
$150-$200: 1
$200+: 4

Most Expensive Deck: $253.77 (Wastelands B/S Control)
Least Expensive Deck: $71.36 (Entrath Robots)
Average Deck: $182.81

Yes you CAN build them cheaper if you use more efficient means, but those prices are still pretty high considering that people say its cheaper than MTGO.

Drafting is cheaper by a huge margin and there can be no argument on that. But saying Standard constructed is cheaper would be false overall.

I don't know which sites provide best prices or anything, but here are some MTGO standard deck prices: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/standard/full#online

magic_gazz
06-15-2015, 04:57 PM
I don't know which sites provide best prices or anything, but here are some MTGO standard deck prices: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/standard/full#online

As you can see the prices are quite similar, although there are some MTGO decks approaching the $300 mark.

I myself got bored waiting for set 3, sold a couple of hundred bucks worth of stuff and bought the Esper Dragons deck on MTGO. Played a few events, hated it, sold the deck, dropped another $400 and bough a legacy deck (Miracles). So its not always about the cost although for some people it might be.

TOOT
06-15-2015, 05:03 PM
This is very flawed.

We have no idea of the "true" value of platinum purchased from outside the game, so we can only work with the official figures. Your numbers seem a bit low as when I sold cards I sold them at about 70% of the price.

If you buy plat from the Hex store and then buy these cards on the AH they cost almost $20.

It is easy to discuss things in these terms as then everyone is on the same page and you would be surprised how many people stick to using official methods rather than scouting around for deals from people they may or may not be able to trust.

It is not very flawed.

We do have a true value of platinum purchased outside the game. Platinum is at 70% off the bat when buying the gift cards from GF. That has nothing to do with trusting anybody. The numbers I suggested are right on par after factoring in some small discount off the "retail" price of 70%. That small discount represents some inherent factor of risk that you speak of, and it is fairly easy to find reputable sellers at such prices.

If you yourself are admitting you sold stuff at 70% of prices, then how are you continuing to defend that Reese is a $20 card. It is a 2000 plat card, not a $20 card. I'm not surprised about anything, I'm working off of facts and real life situations, not some fantasy world where these things are worth that price today. That is the premise that is off on the original post you made in the thread, which explains the inaccuracies on assumptions.

Let me know how many CMK's you've seen that sold for $90 cash.

israel.kendall
06-15-2015, 05:04 PM
As you can see the prices are quite similar, although there are some MTGO decks approaching the $300 mark.

I myself got bored waiting for set 3, sold a couple of hundred bucks worth of stuff and bought the Esper Dragons deck on MTGO. Played a few events, hated it, sold the deck, dropped another $400 and bough a legacy deck (Miracles). So its not always about the cost although for some people it might be.

This one has a $550 dragons deck in it http://www.mtgo-stats.com/

But from the information I can see, HEX constructed is not half the price of MTGO constructed.

chromus
06-15-2015, 05:09 PM
The secondary market does not seem inflated if you look at Card prices vs Pack prices.

In May, avg. price of Legendaries was about 473 Plat while avg. price of Rares was about 110 Plat (Set 1 and Set 2 combined - official AH data). That comes to avg. Pack value of 155 Plat (1 in 8 Leg chance). Then we add the value of Primal Proc of 47.5 Plat (110*13*0.02+473*2*0.02), we get 202.5 Plat Pack value vs 200 Plat Store Pack price. This is very comparable. (Common, Uncommons and Chest values are not included in this calculation but their influence should be minimal.)

The Plat floor does inflate the prices of bad Rares but it's probably there for a reason (ex: crafting material received from disenchanting a Rare card may be worth about 30 Plat).

Harwinne
06-15-2015, 05:20 PM
A playset of Tarmogoyfs will set you back close to $600. MM2015 is insane... over 10 bucks a pack and there's tons of bulk rares. Or a Comet Storm.

MTG packs have large percentages of bulk rares in every set. MTGO compounds the problem- no one other than the few who have access to the code knows if the packs are producing cards the way you would get them from cracking a physical box. They could easily double the number of bulk rares and no one outside could ever prove it.

Alot of the rares in these first two sets may not be $20 rares, but most of them are useful in some form or another. New MTG sets I'm noticing a large percentage of the rares are like 50 cents and under and they don't move.

Gwaer
06-15-2015, 05:22 PM
Please link me to reliable way to get 30% off plat from GF cards. This is just straight up lies as far as I can tell.

Harwinne
06-15-2015, 05:23 PM
There are also some nice uncommons. Shard of Innovation, Electroid, and some others you could easily sell a few cards and buy another pack. They also happen to be good cards for playing.

israel.kendall
06-15-2015, 05:27 PM
Please link me to reliable way to get 30% off plat from GF cards. This is just straight up lies as far as I can tell.

I don't know about reliable, as I've never used it, but a quick Google found 7k plat for $52.39

Mojumbo
06-15-2015, 05:28 PM
Please link me to reliable way to get 30% off plat from GF cards. This is just straight up lies as far as I can tell.

+1. Let me know how to get 30% off easy :D

Harwinne
06-15-2015, 05:33 PM
I don't know about reliable, as I've never used it, but a quick Google found 7k plat for $52.39

That doesn't sound too reliable (or secure).

Gwaer
06-15-2015, 05:41 PM
Toot said 30% discount from gameforge. And it's not the first time I've seen that bandied about. So pony up. How does one get a 30% constant discount from GF on plat?

wolzarg
06-15-2015, 05:50 PM
That doesn't sound too reliable (or secure).
Sounds like a breach of the ToS if anything.

israel.kendall
06-15-2015, 05:54 PM
Sounds like a breach of the ToS if anything.

It was buying a Gameforge Gamecard, definitely not a breach of ToS. I did quick Google research on the site, as well as a recent recommendation from a redditor, then made my purchase. Code worked as promised and I got 7k plat for roughly $56 after all charges (code removed from pic)

http://i.imgur.com/mON7zv7.jpg

Jonesy
06-15-2015, 05:56 PM
I kickstarted for 250 and put no more money in. I now have 500 bucks in plat, almost as many packs as I started with, and a whole lot of cards. I couldn't do that in magic, drafts cost a lot more, and those stupid bots are way worse than our much maligned auction house. Seems to me Hex is, as advertised, much cheaper than magic.

magic_gazz
06-15-2015, 06:01 PM
I kickstarted for 250 and put no more money in. I now have 500 bucks in plat, almost as many packs as I started with, and a whole lot of cards. I couldn't do that in magic, drafts cost a lot more, and those stupid bots are way worse than our much maligned auction house. Seems to me Hex is, as advertised, much cheaper than magic.

Yes the high prices do seem to be an advantage for some of us.

I was a slacker backer and put in another $200, have cashed out about that much and am left with 4x every non AA card and over 20k plat, while Magic is just a money sink for me.

On the flip side of that though, someone has to be paying the high prices, so maybe it is not cheaper for them.

Gwaer
06-15-2015, 06:01 PM
Isn't 56 20% of 70?

This elusive 30% constant discount is the one I'm interested in. Being able to get the occasional 10-20% off of a gift card is one thing. There are arguments to be made that plat may have some loss because of them, but in no way is it directly proportional to an occasional sale. But i keep seeing people say plat is only worth 70% and its ridiculous.

israel.kendall
06-15-2015, 06:05 PM
Isn't 56 20% of 70?

This elusive 30% constant discount is the one I'm interested in. Being able to get the occasional 10-20% off of a gift card is one thing. There are arguments to be made that plat may have some loss because of them, but in no way is it directly proportional to an occasional sale. But i keep seeing people say plat is only worth 70% and its ridiculous.

I don't know about the 30% claim, but if I can do a quick Google and have plat at 20% within minutes then I'm not going to doubt the 30% claim personally.

Gwaer
06-15-2015, 06:09 PM
I don't know about the 30% claim, but if I can do a quick Google and have plat at 20% within minutes then I'm not going to doubt the 30% claim personally.

Haha. Thankfully I require a much more strict standard of proof than, 'this much different observation is true, so all observations semi-related must be true.'

israel.kendall
06-15-2015, 06:12 PM
Haha. Thankfully I require a much more strict standard of proof than, 'this much different observation is true, so all observations semi-related must be true.'

That's cool, maybe Toot will answer you. I just don't have time to go looking for the extra 10%. If I don't look then it surely doesn't exist :D

israel.kendall
06-15-2015, 06:17 PM
Ok so from the reddit it looks like it should have only been $48 from the site I bought from. So there is the 30%. I guess I must have clicked the wrong seller maybe.

Gwaer
06-15-2015, 06:20 PM
I have looked. And I will grant you can find the occasional discount on cards. But you couldn't find all plat you'd ever want for a 20% discount. And it would be incredibly inconvenient to try to get even a 10% discount on any sufficiently large sum of plat. The fact that sometimes people are willing to give you less versatile money for a cheaper amount of more versatile money, does not immediately devalue all of the less versatile currency to the most discounted level someone was offered. I won't even argue that someone somewhere has probably gotten a 30% discount one way or another. It just doesn't make all plat worth 70%


Ok so from the reddit it looks like it should have only been $48 from the site I bought from. So there is the 30%. I guess I must have clicked the wrong seller maybe.

Yea, I'm sure you just totally clicked on the wrong link</s>. A single sale is more or less irrelevant. A constant solid easily obtainable supply that the vast majority of plat comes from is the only thing that would devalue plat a fixed percentage. And your silly x for <x gift card sites will never supply that.

israel.kendall
06-15-2015, 06:29 PM
I have looked. And I will grant you can find the occasional discount on cards. But you couldn't find all plat you'd ever want for a 20% discount. And it would be incredibly inconvenient to try to get even a 10% discount on any sufficiently large sum of plat. The fact that sometimes people are willing to give you less versatile money for a cheaper amount of more versatile money, does not immediately devalue all of the less versatile currency to the most discounted level someone was offered. I won't even argue that someone somewhere has probably gotten a 30% discount one way or another. It just doesn't make all plat worth 70%



Yea, I'm sure you just totally clicked on the wrong link</s>. A single sale is more or less irrelevant. A constant solid easily obtainable supply that the vast majority of plat comes from is the only thing that would devalue plat a fixed percentage. And your silly x for <x gift card sites will never supply that.

That's fine man, people will continue buying plat at 30% off while you sit in the corner with your thumbs in your ears going "nya-nya-nya-nya-nya"

Refugee
06-15-2015, 06:32 PM
I'd like to think it's partly the unusually high proportion of collectors in our player base. Because it's still in Beta, a much larger proportion of the dedicated players are thinking in the long term. It's not just that the Constructed players want the staples, but they have to complete with the collectors for them as well. People who want full playsets to draw from for PvE when it's fully available.

Demand is ridiculously high in proportion to the relatively small player base, and the demand for constructed cards isn't just coming from constructed players.

I like to collect things. I like games like Hex and magic. I never collected in magic because the card management aspect is beyond tedious, not to mention the space consumed. Digital games not only don't take up space but make it easy to see what I have and need. I imagine this same thinking applies to a lot of people, which leads to a lot more collectors.

Gwaer
06-15-2015, 06:33 PM
That's fine man, people will continue buying plat at 30% off while you sit in the corner with your thumbs in your ears going "nya-nya-nya-nya-nya"


Except you just tried, and failed to do that. So clearly not all people will. I very much doubt you're the dumbest person to play hex, I mean, unless you're willing to concede that.

TOOT
06-15-2015, 06:33 PM
I should have said for Gameforge, not from Gameforge, so I apologize for that.

There is also an additional 5% off purchases from using some promo codes you can find on Cirouss' stream for example. The Euro has crashed and burned over the last 3 months where the discounts were even larger than they are now which I hadn't looked at.

Call me a liar if you want, I really don't care to impress anyone here. The whole point isn't to argue whether its 70% or whatever %. Fine it might not be 70%, (I haven't bothered to work it all out as I haven't bought any recently) but it's a hell of a lot closer to 70% than 100%. The point is saying Reese is a $20 card, or AA CMK are being bought and sold for $90 is ridiculous.

Surely Gwaer, I'd peg you for someone smart enough to realize this without arguing the semantics over it. I know you likely can't buy $80,000 worth of stuff at that price, but to the market we are talking about in this topic (people spending ~$100 on a tier 1 deck and comparing that to a MtG deck and the pricing) using a ratio of 1-1 for plat and $ is not correct at all, which was the crux of the issues with the OP.

The point I am driving home is completely relevant to THIS topic.

Gwaer
06-15-2015, 06:37 PM
But there is more than $80,000 in the hex economy. If enough of that was purchased at full price you're looking at plat being just a couple percent off of a dollar. Not to mention that for a very long time in hex's history a great portion of plat selling in Europe and elsewhere was going for more than a dollar a plat, to the point that the general pool of plat could have been purchased at greater than 100% usd price.

My issue isn't semantics so much as assuming all plat is devalued substantially because some plat gets to you cheaper. It's also relevant that even if you use a discounted gift card that gift card is still good for the full amount. So effectively you're buying 100$ for 80$ hex still gets the full 100.

israel.kendall
06-15-2015, 06:43 PM
Except you just tried, and failed to do that. So clearly not all people will. I very much doubt you're the dumbest person to play hex, I mean, unless you're willing to concede that.

When I went to the site it was just for a test purpose (for reliability), I wasn't trying to get max discount. I approached the site as if it were similar to Amazon, where there are cheaper prices but usually from less reputable sellers. I don't know if this site works like amazon, but I decided to go with the one that was a few bucks more (one was 47 and change, the other 52). I also purchased some sort of insurance which drove my price up a bit. The option to buy at 30% is there, and clear, it is just my approach that was flawed lol

TOOT
06-15-2015, 06:46 PM
But there is more than $80,000 in the hex economy. If enough of that was purchased at full price you're looking at plat being just a couple percent off of a dollar. Not to mention that for a very long time in hex's history a great portion of plat selling in Europe and elsewhere was going for more than a dollar a plat, to the point that the general pool of plat could have been purchased at greater than 100% usd price.

My issue isn't semantics so much as assuming all plat is devalued substantially because some plat gets to you cheaper. It's also relevant that even if you use a discounted gift card that gift card is still good for the full amount. So effectively you're buying 100$ for 80$ hex still gets the full 100.

I am aware Hex gets the full 100 and I am happy they do. I'd honestly feel kind of crappy ripping money out of their pockets as I get a lot of enjoyment from their game and I want to support them. They need it more than I do. ;)

If someone can buy 10,000 plat for even $80, who would ever buy a CMK off of someone for $90?

Shadowflame
06-15-2015, 06:47 PM
I also purchased some sort of insurance which drove my price up a bit.

That g2a shield is unnecessary. You don't need insurance to make sure you get what you paid for. If you don't get what you paid for, simply reverse the charges.

israel.kendall
06-15-2015, 06:50 PM
That g2a shield is unnecessary. You don't need insurance to make sure you get what you paid for. If you don't get what you paid for, simply reverse the charges.

Yeah, I am usually more cautious my first time dealing with a business so I bought it. The transaction was so smooth and quick that I think I will pass on the shield next time.

Gwaer
06-15-2015, 06:53 PM
I am aware Hex gets the full 100 and I am happy they do. I'd honestly feel kind of crappy ripping money out of their pockets as I get a lot of enjoyment from their game and I want to support them. They need it more than I do. ;)

If someone can buy 10,000 plat for even $80, who would ever buy a CMK off of someone for $90?

Anyone who can't get that deal? I mean, I could tell colin I'll give him a homemade cake from my grandmother for 10,000plat I've effectively got that plat for like 10 bucks. The economy didn't just crash, all cards didn't just get devalued. That's the entire point I'm making. However, if everyone could get that discount at all times you would have a point. If the entire hex community bought up all these deals, eventually they'd run out. The people that got them would be just like the kickstarters. They got a good deal for a limited time. It's possible they'll pop up from time to time with gift cards but there's a finite supply. Once that supply runs out for all future players 1 plat =.01 dollars. The only time Reese' value changes is when there is enough supply of discount plat that the currency itself is destabilized. I contend we aren't there. And are very unlikely to ever be there.

magic_gazz
06-15-2015, 07:11 PM
I could tell colin I'll give him a homemade cake from my grandmother for 10,000plat

In before he takes you up on this.

Gwaer
06-15-2015, 07:15 PM
In before he takes you up on this.

Haha. I thought about adding another 0 on the end of that example, just in case he decided to take me up on it. =P

Xexist
06-15-2015, 07:50 PM
I think the collector part may have hit the nail on the head.

The % of people in Hex who have/are collecting a full set is probably a lot higher than the number of people trying that in MTGO.

As the player base expands we will get a lot more "realistic" players who don't have that compulsion. I know I have never been a collector until now, but that may be down to the fact that I win a lot more on Hex so can afford it.

Also when the kickstarters supply of stuff dries up I guess some of them might give up on being collectors too. Its probably quite easy for them to get 4 of everything at the moment but that will not last forever unless they can keep their win % up.

As a grand king I can assure you getting 4 of everything isnt 'Easy' unless you mean also 'and money is no issue'

ossuary
06-15-2015, 08:09 PM
Gwaer's grandmother's "homemade" cakes are actually just Betty Crocker cakes with an off-brand frosting. Colin, my wife will make you the real deal: fresh, completely from scratch Pineapple Upside-Down Cake with cinnamon whipped cream, sent right to your door, for only 9,000 plat.

Gwaer
06-15-2015, 08:37 PM
I abide many things. But do not disparage my grandmother's cooking. She has been a professional baker for over 60 years.

dogmod
06-15-2015, 09:30 PM
My wife will bake on demand for AA Bucc sleeves... name your pastry

Kurasa
06-15-2015, 11:20 PM
I will look up how to make a pastry of your choice and document my attempt to make it.

DoctorJoe
06-16-2015, 04:37 AM
Guys, we all love Hex, but lets not make terrible arguments to defend things. No one is saying anything bad or putting the game down, so you don't need to jump to its defence.

Comparing cards to Power 9 or Legacy cards is extremely flawed logic. We are talking about current cards that are in print, so lets compare that to current cards in print, not 20 year old cards.

The cost of Vampire King, Reese and Monsuun does seem higher than it should be considering we are buying $2 boosters. That is the equivalent of a $40 card on MTGO, something that does not exist (in standard).

Better to talk about the reasons for this than to try and convince ourselves its not happening.

Due to the number of available sets, the current Hex market is more similar to a post-rotation MTGO standard. In recent history Geist of Saint Traft and Liliana of the Veil were both $40ish on MTGO following Innistrad release and standard rotation to my recollection.

BlackRoger
06-16-2015, 05:17 AM
I realize im a little late to the party, but something I did not see mentioned is the low value of cards in mtg standard due to the fast rotation of their cards, meaning most of their cards become almost worthless after 1.5 years or less.

On the other hand in Hex there are currently no cards which will rotate out soon, and even then they will have use in pve.
Even when rotation does eventually arrive, because of the low card quantity, cards that are strong right now will likely be strong in whatever new eternal format appears.
This is a big reason why cards have been maintaining high value, and will for a while to come.

Mahes
06-16-2015, 05:22 AM
Well, this thread has migrated.

We went from a "PROVE IT" tit for tat too a "Hey Collins, please give me stuff for pastry" in just a few pages.

On the note of the original topic,

Supply and demand always drives prices. The AA CMK (Which can go for $90.00 not factoring in Plat discounts) is a rare situation that has no effect on game playability. No AA card should be compared because AA cards have no effect on a player's ability to play an equal deck. There is a pretty low supply compared to demand at the moment because many players are trying to get play sets of the chase cards in anticipation of the super(ninja?) tournaments coming in the near(We hope) future.

It is a healthy market when there are certain cards that are valuable. This game would lose all interest too me if every card was worth only $.05. Given how cheap packs are, it is awesome too know that a player could pull a Reese and choose to sell it to draft 2 more times for free.

The last cog of the machine has yet to be implemented. It will be interesting too see what happens too the market when a player can sell Plat back too the company, as has been promised in the future. A player can do that now but there is a risk factor involved. When it becomes something with no risk, then we get too see how value truly holds up.

wolzarg
06-16-2015, 05:44 AM
The last cog of the machine has yet to be implemented. It will be interesting too see what happens too the market when a player can sell Plat back too the company, as has been promised in the future. A player can do that now but there is a risk factor involved. When it becomes something with no risk, then we get too see how value truly holds up.
I'm not at all saying you are wrong but when was this even mentioned? Seems like a horrible buisness idea considering the chance at 30% discount making them either have to either pay you 70% or be open to get screwed at some point with a expansive too good deal?

DocX
06-16-2015, 06:30 AM
As a grand king I can assure you getting 4 of everything isnt 'Easy' unless you mean also 'and money is no issue'

I'll second this. I've not even been caring about AAs (except the Gold ones, and those only as an investment). I just got a play set of Set 2 a couple weeks ago (finally dropped the plat in the AH for the remaining Master Mosses). For me, the set releases have been such that I've completed my playset a month or two before the next set releases. I probably could have done it quicker if I'd have been smarter with working the AH, but I've mostly done what I could with automated processes and such that have a reasonable return on investment without too much time spent.

If sets start coming out faster, I'll need to adjust my workflow to increase my acquisition speed. But right now, as a GK backer, I can get a play set of PVP cards and I'm close to getting a play set of PVE cards/equip (missing the Fungal Monstrosity, Water Elemental and Shiitake Chef and 1 PVE equip). It hasn't been easy or fast, but it's doable.

Svenn
06-16-2015, 07:37 AM
Anyone who can't get that deal? I mean, I could tell colin I'll give him a homemade cake from my grandmother for 10,000plat I've effectively got that plat for like 10 bucks. The economy didn't just crash, all cards didn't just get devalued. That's the entire point I'm making. However, if everyone could get that discount at all times you would have a point. If the entire hex community bought up all these deals, eventually they'd run out. The people that got them would be just like the kickstarters. They got a good deal for a limited time. It's possible they'll pop up from time to time with gift cards but there's a finite supply. Once that supply runs out for all future players 1 plat =.01 dollars. The only time Reese' value changes is when there is enough supply of discount plat that the currency itself is destabilized. I contend we aren't there. And are very unlikely to ever be there.
It's not just the g2a site that has those discounts. There are third party sites where people sell discounted gift cards of all kinds, and Hex accepts a bunch of gift cards. You have to really want to buy plat at less than 20% off to do it.

Also, I've seen plenty of people selling/buying plat on third party sites (and reported them), and most of the time it's at around 50-60%. These aren't people cashing out super cheap to leave the game or something (I've seen the same person sell out, then restock more than once).

If you don't realize that the value of plat is actually far less than $1=100 plat then you can continue to spend way too much for your platinum. Don't be surprised if you try to sell stuff for real money and it's worth far less than you anticipate though.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 07:58 AM
It's not just the g2a site that has those discounts. There are third party sites where people sell discounted gift cards of all kinds, and Hex accepts a bunch of gift cards. You have to really want to buy plat at less than 20% off to do it.

Also, I've seen plenty of people selling/buying plat on third party sites (and reported them), and most of the time it's at around 50-60%. These aren't people cashing out super cheap to leave the game or something (I've seen the same person sell out, then restock more than once).

If you don't realize that the value of plat is actually far less than $1=100 plat then you can continue to spend way too much for your platinum. Don't be surprised if you try to sell stuff for real money and it's worth far less than you anticipate though.

If you are reporting people for selling plat, might as well go report fiveshards for selling cards. Both are covered in the exact same line of the ToS. They are eaither both legit, or both violations.

Mahes
06-16-2015, 08:00 AM
Is it illegal to sell plat? I thought all 3rd party transactions were unofficially accepted as long as accounts were not being sold.

nicosharp
06-16-2015, 08:02 AM
Is it illegal to sell plat? I thought all 3rd party transactions were unofficially accepted as long as accounts were not being sold.
Apparently it is more heavily frown upon than selling cards 3rd party. I honestly do not see where the line in the sand is there, but both are technically a blurb on the TOS as not being "supported".

Edit: Svenn would know better as it more directly effects him - he notes it below. Apparently they are going to re-write the TOS again to be more explicit.

Svenn
06-16-2015, 08:03 AM
We have specifically been told by Phenteo that selling platinum/gold is an actionable offense but selling boosters/cards is okay.


Currently we are not banning sales of cards and items externally, but we will not recognize those sales as official and you're fully responsible for any damages incurred. We are, however, not allowing the selling of platinum or gold outside of the game. Anyone caught doing so will have actions taken against their account.
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=39147&p=432814#post432814

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 08:09 AM
We have specifically been told by Phenteo that selling platinum/gold is an actionable offense but selling boosters/cards is okay.


http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=39147&p=432814#post432814

Yes, but the ToS has been rewritten since that statement. Currently the sale of both plat and cards are covered in the exact same line of the ToS with the same language. Once the document was edited, I would consider long past interpretations (like what you posted) are no longer valid.

Svenn
06-16-2015, 08:10 AM
Yes, but the ToS has been rewritten since that statement. Currently the sale of both plat and cards are covered in the exact same line of the ToS with the same language. Once the document was edited, I would consider long past interpretations (like what you posted) are no longer valid.
They made the ToS stuff less strict since then. I PMed Phenteo since it was updated and was told the statement still holds true. I've posted this multiple times now.

Mahes
06-16-2015, 08:11 AM
That is an odd fine line. So a player converts their plat to good cards and then sells them. Takes no time to convert given the 3rd party sites or the AH itself. I understood accounts due to the KS advantage that accounts have but Plat seems almost like a little child going " NO, only we sell Platinum!!!".

Either ban the entire 3rd party mechanism or allow for all tradables to be sold(Unofficially of course).

nicosharp
06-16-2015, 08:14 AM
That is an odd fine line. So a player converts their plat to good cards and then sells them. Takes no time to convert given the 3rd party sites or the AH itself. I understood accounts due to the KS advantage that accounts have but Plat seems almost like a little child going " NO, only we sell Platinum!!!".

Either ban the entire 3rd party mechanism or allow for all tradables to be sold(Unofficially of course).
I've mentioned the same exact thing. It's redundant. I think they are trying to prevent trading outside the game associated for discounts for currency, and having an arbitrary third market tied to cards being recognized as dollar signs. I can't wrap my head around why one is better than the other if any are allowed third party..

And now that we know 20%-30% discounts exist on G2A for gameforge plat purchases.. well, they have some work to do with that partnership again...

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 08:15 AM
They made the ToS stuff less strict since then. I PMed Phenteo since it was updated and was told the statement still holds true. I've posted this multiple times now.

Post it as much as you like, but I have never once in my life deciphered a legal document with secret internet forum messages as a basis. And I most likely never will.

Svenn
06-16-2015, 08:17 AM
That is an odd fine line. So a player converts their plat to good cards and then sells them. Takes no time to convert given the 3rd party sites or the AH itself. I understood accounts due to the KS advantage that accounts have but Plat seems almost like a little child going " NO, only we sell Platinum!!!".

Either ban the entire 3rd party mechanism or allow for all tradables to be sold(Unofficially of course).
It's not that odd. Platinum is 100% where their income is from. People bypassing it and not buying platinum directly from them is going to hurt their income quite a bit, and have a big effect on the players' value of platinum. Buying cards/boosters and selling them (assuming use of the AH, which is likely) means a 5% removal of plat from the economy (thus meaning more plat will need to be purchased).

They want your collection to have value. Your platinum doesn't need to hold a direct real world value.

Svenn
06-16-2015, 08:20 AM
Post it as much as you like, but I have never once in my life deciphered a legal document with secret internet forum messages as a basis. And I most likely never will.

What matters is what they do, not what the legal document says. The ToS is a "cover our asses" thing. They have said that what they do will be to not interfere with sales of cards/boosters but to take actions against gold/plat sales. We have no reason to believe otherwise that I know of, they don't lie to us.

nicosharp
06-16-2015, 08:20 AM
They want your collection to have value. Your platinum doesn't need to hold a direct real world value.
For someone that has traded as much as you, how can you even believe what you just wrote? If you can solve for x, x has a value.

Svenn
06-16-2015, 08:23 AM
For someone that has traded as much as you, how can you even believe what you just wrote? If you can solve for x, x has a value.
DIRECT value. Yes, you can get around it by converting it to cards/boosters and selling those. There is no straight up x plat = y dollars this way though, because you can't always guarantee the conversion rates. There is an approximate value if you want to go about it that way. Most people won't bother buying cards and selling them to get more plat, they'll just buy the plat (especially since things like gift cards are available).

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 08:25 AM
What matters is what they do, not what the legal document says. The ToS is a "cover our asses" thing. They have said that what they do will be to not interfere with sales of cards/boosters but to take actions against gold/plat sales. We have no reason to believe otherwise that I know of, they don't lie to us.

The thing is though, that a legal document does matter. Especially if someone loses thousands of dollars in virtual assets and goes to court over it. It would be interesting to see a defense that both promotes actions and punishes actions that are both covered in the same line of their legal document. I honestly don't know who would win, but I'd surely be interested in reading about it.

Svenn
06-16-2015, 08:30 AM
The thing is though, that a legal document does matter. Especially if someone loses thousands of dollars in virtual assets and goes to court over it. It would be interesting to see a defense that both promotes actions and punishes actions that are both covered in the same line of their legal document. I honestly don't know who would win, but I'd surely be interested in reading about it.

What are you going to court over? They could ban your account any time for any reason and you'd have no legal recourse at all. That's right there in the ToS. Like I said, the only thing that matters is what they do. If they have said they aren't banning for booster/card sales and they stick to that then it really doesn't matter what the ToS says is possible or not. If they don't stick to what they say, then no one can trust them and nothing would hold any value and the game would collapse.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 08:43 AM
What are you going to court over? They could ban your account any time for any reason and you'd have no legal recourse at all. That's right there in the ToS. Like I said, the only thing that matters is what they do. If they have said they aren't banning for booster/card sales and they stick to that then it really doesn't matter what the ToS says is possible or not. If they don't stick to what they say, then no one can trust them and nothing would hold any value and the game would collapse.


I'm not going to court over anything. But the person in my hypothetical situation would be going to court for a judge to interpret the ToS and actions of the parties involved and make a decision on the matter.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 09:00 AM
What are you going to court over? They could ban your account any time for any reason and you'd have no legal recourse at all. That's right there in the ToS. Like I said, the only thing that matters is what they do. If they have said they aren't banning for booster/card sales and they stick to that then it really doesn't matter what the ToS says is possible or not. If they don't stick to what they say, then no one can trust them and nothing would hold any value and the game would collapse.

Also, I want to respond to the "trust" issue. Step back a minute and consider the average gamer. 99.999% of them have not received any secret forum messages to clarify things, many don't even read forums. What they see is a ToS that bans gathering things to sell. Then they also see the company promoting web sites that sell these same items, which is supposedly banned. The logical conclusion here would be that the company is ok with selling things. Then they go buy or sell some plat and get banned. I think this would have some impact on trust IMO.

wolzarg
06-16-2015, 09:05 AM
I'm not going to court over anything. But the person in my hypothetical situation would be going to court for a judge to interpret the ToS and actions of the parties involved and make a decision on the matter.

You own literally nothing on your account that is like me going to court over my neighbor wanting his lawnmower i borrowed back. (Which i have ironically enough been told has happened.)




Also, I want to respond to the "trust" issue. Step back a minute and consider the average gamer. 99.999% of them have not received any secret forum messages to clarify things, many don't even read forums. What they see is a ToS that bans gathering things to sell. Then they also see the company promoting web sites that sell these same items, which is supposedly banned. The logical conclusion here would be that the company is ok with selling things. Then they go buy or sell some plat and get banned. I think this would have some impact on trust IMO.
Almost no company allows sales of in game items. Almost all in game items can be bought on the secondary market so your argument holds absolutely no weight.

Wanna bet if i look hard enough i can find someone willing to sell me an AK 47 should i then go "But it was available on the internet so it must be all good with everyone right?" as i go to court?

PS. i know unicornpoop all about guns so if ak 47 isn't the correct name don't chastise me.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 09:38 AM
You own literally nothing on your account that is like me going to court over my neighbor wanting his lawnmower i borrowed back. (Which i have ironically enough been told has happened.)




Almost no company allows sales of in game items. Almost all in game items can be bought on the secondary market so your argument holds absolutely no weight.

Wanna bet if i look hard enough i can find someone willing to sell me an AK 47 should i then go "But it was available on the internet so it must be all good with everyone right?" as i go to court?

PS. i know unicornpoop all about guns so if ak 47 isn't the correct name don't chastise me.

Writing something in a ToS does not make it the law. When a judge began dismantling Second Lifes ToS they decided to settle out of court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bragg_v._Linden_Lab

Gwaer
06-16-2015, 09:51 AM
Writing something in a ToS does not make it the law. When a judge began dismantling Second Lifes ToS they decided to settle out of court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bragg_v._Linden_Lab

Striking a binding arbitration clause is not the same as dismantling a TOS. Fact is binding arbitration requirements are illegal in many states. Doesn't make them less valid in places they can be enforced however, and doesn't speak at all to companies being able to enforce whether or not their goods can be resold of which there are no state laws that control how digital goods must be handled.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 09:53 AM
Also, in regards to owning virtual goods in particular here are a couple of articles:

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2012/s3466221.htm

http://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverherzfeld/2012/12/04/what-is-the-legal-status-of-virtual-goods/

It's not all that black and white, and will surely require more judgements and laws passed to work it all out in various countries.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 09:55 AM
Striking a binding arbitration clause is not the same as dismantling a TOS. Fact is binding arbitration requirements are illegal in many states. Doesn't make them less valid in places they can be enforced however, and doesn't speak at all to companies being able to enforce whether or not their goods can be resold of which there are no state laws that control how digital goods must be handled.

The part about it being an "adhesion contract" in the decision is the most important thing to take away from that IMO.

Gwaer
06-16-2015, 09:59 AM
Linking 3 year old articles you haven't read that don't really support your position isn't really a great way to approach this. *snipped the rest because I was wrong*

Mahes
06-16-2015, 10:01 AM
Writing something in a ToS does not make it the law. When a judge began dismantling Second Lifes ToS they decided to settle out of court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bragg_v._Linden_Lab

That might be the only case that has challenged a ToS in reference to an online game. I have always wondered how clicking a button equals a person's signature when there is no witness to the action. In the end, that becomes the inherent flaw in the ToS system. A person could challenge the company if enough money was on the line. This will happen eventually and then new laws will be drawn up to guide the system.

Gwaer
06-16-2015, 10:03 AM
The part about it being an "adhesion contract" in the decision is the most important thing to take away from that IMO.

I don't think there was ever any question of it being an adhesion contract, but why do you feel that's relevant? All that means is its a contract with no negotiation.

@mahes the same way you agree to license agreements when opening packaging. It doesn't require a signature to enforce terms on someone unfortunately. I agree that companies get away with that crap a lot more than an individual could and much of it could be challenged, however software service agreements have been upheld in court just for using the product.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 10:04 AM
Linking 3 year old articles you haven't read that don't really support your position isn't really a great way to approach this. But you've never been a particularly rational forum poster, nor do you really take rules very seriously anyway. Since you're on an account you made to dodge a forum ban which is also explicitly against the rules. I don't think you're in a good position to say that service agreements can't be enforced more or less stringent depending on the situation.

Who are you talking to?

Xexist
06-16-2015, 10:18 AM
dis thread. so angry

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 10:18 AM
Linking 3 year old articles you haven't read that don't really support your position isn't really a great way to approach this. But you've never been a particularly rational forum poster, nor do you really take rules very seriously anyway. Since you're on an account you made to dodge a forum ban which is also explicitly against the rules. I don't think you're in a good position to say that service agreements can't be enforced more or less stringent depending on the situation.

On second thought, I will just reply to this, as poorly thought out as it is, as it does seem that you are talking to me. First off, I'd be glad to read any more recent articles on the subject if you have them. This is because I'm interested in the subject. I'm not arguing that a ToS is completely unenforceable, I'm arguing that they are not law. I'm also arguing that virtual asset ownership is a legal grey area that needs more judgements and laws passed to clarify. I'm arguing that if there were a court case I'd like to read about it....

Secondly, I have no clue what you are talking about forum ban. This is a downright lie, I will call it what it is. I'd like someone to come clarify this and show that I have never been banned and am in good standing. This is ridiculous.

Gwaer
06-16-2015, 10:25 AM
Fair enough, could have gotten you confused with someone else.

If you're actually interested in these things there are a number of blogs with tons of articles on them. Popehat, tech dirt, groklaw. I'm still very interested in why you think an adhesion contract being called an adhesion contract is relevant. It seems to me you're just googling phrases that agree with your position and linking the first result. But if you have genuine interest this is a topic I've been keenly following for ages and can pm you some stuff.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 10:32 AM
Fair enough, could have gotten you confused with someone else. .

No, not "could have", you did. You want to paint me in a certain light in an attempt to discredit me for some reason, act like I don't understand what I'm talking about while you throw out wild random accusations attacking a persons integrity.

Gwaer
06-16-2015, 10:34 AM
No I legitimately thought you were someone else, and edited my previous posts to reflect that. I've no problem owning up to a mistake. You say you aren't on an account to dodge a ban, thats good enough for me. I don't even remember why I originally thought you were it has been so long.

If you'd like to keep dodging my question after I've acknowledged my mistake and taken steps to correct it that's your prerogative. Why is an adhesion contract being ruled an adhesion contract the most relevant portion of that article you linked. I still don't get the relevance.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 10:38 AM
No I legitimately thought you were someone else, and edited my previous posts to reflect that. I've no problem owning up to a mistake. You say you aren't on an account to dodge a ban, thats good enough for me. I don't even remember why I originally thought you were it has been so long.

All this time you thought I was some other guy =( LOL anyways man no hard feelings.

Hatts
06-16-2015, 11:04 AM
Classic Gwaer.

Gwaer
06-16-2015, 11:09 AM
Classic Gwaer.

Don't worry we made up in pm's. These mistakes are just relationship building opportunities. <3

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 11:26 AM
No I legitimately thought you were someone else, and edited my previous posts to reflect that. I've no problem owning up to a mistake. You say you aren't on an account to dodge a ban, thats good enough for me. I don't even remember why I originally thought you were it has been so long.

If you'd like to keep dodging my question after I've acknowledged my mistake and taken steps to correct it that's your prerogative. Why is an adhesion contract being ruled an adhesion contract the most relevant portion of that article you linked. I still don't get the relevance.

Sorry, when I first replied you had not written the part on adhesion contracts. I said the part about it being an adhesion contract is the most important thing, because firstly it is the basis of his argument against the clause in the ToS. Secondly, because the judge agreed with him. And thirdly, because we are all also in an adhesion contract with HEX. This is why I feel it was important. Also, don't miss the purpose of me linking the article, it was to show that writing something in a ToS does not make it law, and that is why people take them to court.

plaguedealer
06-16-2015, 11:32 AM
Thanks for the information, think I will look at that ruling today. Hope to hell I dont have to go to court with Hex anytime soon though.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the information, think I will look at that ruling today. Hope to hell I dont have to go to court with Hex anytime soon though.

The references at the bottom of the wiki are good reads and more informative than the wiki article.

Svenn
06-16-2015, 11:38 AM
Sorry, when I first replied you had not written the part on adhesion contracts. I said the part about it being an adhesion contract is the most important thing, because firstly it is the basis of his argument against the clause in the ToS. Secondly, because the judge agreed with him. And thirdly, because we are all also in an adhesion contract with HEX. This is why I feel it was important. Also, don't miss the purpose of me linking the article, it was to show that writing something in a ToS does not make it law, and that is why people take them to court.

I'm still wondering what someone is going to take Hex to court for? For an account ban? Loss of value from that ban? If you try to argue that your cards are real items with value I don't think that's going to go over well, especially since I'm guessing you aren't paying taxes on your in-game transactions/arena earnings. I'm not sure what else you'd be trying to take Hex to court over. So, like I said, it's not about the ToS but rather what Hex actually does.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 11:52 AM
I'm still wondering what someone is going to take Hex to court for? For an account ban? Loss of value from that ban? If you try to argue that your cards are real items with value I don't think that's going to go over well, especially since I'm guessing you aren't paying taxes on your in-game transactions/arena earnings. I'm not sure what else you'd be trying to take Hex to court over. So, like I said, it's not about the ToS but rather what Hex actually does.

I was imagining someone suing over an account ban most likely, if they lost a lot of value. Some judges have already ruled that virtual items have real value, even those that are technically "not owned" according to a ToS. The tax thing is something that also needs to be worked out. My point is that it is an interesting aspect of law that is really still being sorted out. If you think it is not about the ToS, I don't know what to tell you really. I imagine the majority of a case would revolve around the ToS.

Also, I don't want people to misconstrue my posts as me saying one side will win or not. I'm only saying this is not simple black and white, and would be interesting because of the overall legal ripples that could be caused by a ruling (either way) on it.

plaguedealer
06-16-2015, 12:00 PM
Ban me just dont tax me, I would be crazy pissed if I had to pay taxes on digital things for a game. We had this conversation a few months back I think.

Svenn
06-16-2015, 12:03 PM
Also, I don't want people to misconstrue my posts as me saying one side will win or not. I'm only saying this is not simple black and white, and would be interesting because of the overall legal ripples that could be caused by a ruling (either way) on it.

What I'm saying is that the only thing that really matters to us is what they say and actually do. The legal sides of the ToS don't really come into play in most of the cases. If they are banning people for selling platinum/gold after telling us they would, then good luck if you are selling plat/gold and get caught. I have a feeling you'd have a hard time arguing that in court.

If they aren't banning for something that the ToS says they can ban for, then it doesn't matter what the ToS says because you aren't going to run into any problems. The legal bits mean nothing unless someone is going to try and sue Hex for NOT following the ToS? However, if they suddenly change their mind and start banning... well, that basically means the end of the game as people are going to start jumping out when they realize they can't trust HexEnt and they can simply lose all their value that they are supposed to have. Sure, you could try and argue the legal bits at this point but this should never happen. It would be bad for both HexEnt AND players for them to do this.

israel.kendall
06-16-2015, 12:15 PM
What I'm saying is that the only thing that really matters to us is what they say and actually do. The legal sides of the ToS don't really come into play in most of the cases. If they are banning people for selling platinum/gold after telling us they would, then good luck if you are selling plat/gold and get caught. I have a feeling you'd have a hard time arguing that in court.

If they aren't banning for something that the ToS says they can ban for, then it doesn't matter what the ToS says because you aren't going to run into any problems. The legal bits mean nothing unless someone is going to try and sue Hex for NOT following the ToS? However, if they suddenly change their mind and start banning... well, that basically means the end of the game as people are going to start jumping out when they realize they can't trust HexEnt and they can simply lose all their value that they are supposed to have. Sure, you could try and argue the legal bits at this point but this should never happen. It would be bad for both HexEnt AND players for them to do this.

Hey that's fine, I'm just saying that it is possible someone takes them to court and it will be interesting to read about. If you disagree that is fine, but it would be a judge making the call, not you or I.

magic_gazz
06-16-2015, 01:20 PM
Can someone explain how G2A or whoever it is that sells cheap platinum is able to do this?

I keep hearing people say "it doesn't matter, Hex gets 100%", but that sounds like nonsense.

If G2A are selling plat for 20% discount and paying full price, its not a very good business model.

Obviously they are getting it for LESS than they sell for. That's how business works. So the question is WHY are they allowed to buy platinum at such a discount and resell it for a profit?

It doesn't really seem right.

Svenn
06-16-2015, 01:27 PM
Can someone explain how G2A or whoever it is that sells cheap platinum is able to do this?

I keep hearing people say "it doesn't matter, Hex gets 100%", but that sounds like nonsense.

If G2A are selling plat for 20% discount and paying full price, its not a very good business model.

Obviously they are getting it for LESS than they sell for. That's how business works. So the question is WHY are they allowed to buy platinum at such a discount and resell it for a profit?

It doesn't really seem right.
Well, first of all, they aren't selling platinum... they are selling gameforge gift cards. Also, I don't know how much of it is G2A selling it versus random people selling through G2A. I don't know much about it other than that.

I will say there is always an abundance of people looking to sell gift cards for less than the value because they want the cash instead. G2A isn't the only site for this.

Gwaer
06-16-2015, 01:48 PM
Your mom buys you a gift card for your birthday. You would rather have cash, you go to a website for selling gift cards for cash. You can try to sell it 1for 1. But no one will risk buying your gift card for the same value instead of just getting it through official channels. So you sell it for a loss for money to buy something else. You've essentially sold a $20 bull for less than its value to someone who wanted to spend money in that product anyway.

Showsni
06-16-2015, 02:58 PM
Can someone explain how G2A or whoever it is that sells cheap platinum is able to do this?

I keep hearing people say "it doesn't matter, Hex gets 100%", but that sounds like nonsense.

If G2A are selling plat for 20% discount and paying full price, its not a very good business model.

Obviously they are getting it for LESS than they sell for. That's how business works. So the question is WHY are they allowed to buy platinum at such a discount and resell it for a profit?

It doesn't really seem right.

There's an interesting article on polygon about how the G2A business model works, here: http://www.polygon.com/2015/2/9/8006693/the-truth-behind-those-mysteriously-cheap-gray-market-game-codes

One of the links in the comments to that article also exposes how some of the resellers on G2A do this:
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/LeszekLisowski/20141001/226840/How_to_get_every_game_on_STEAM_for_free.php

Svenn
06-16-2015, 03:12 PM
There's an interesting article on polygon about how the G2A business model works, here: http://www.polygon.com/2015/2/9/8006693/the-truth-behind-those-mysteriously-cheap-gray-market-game-codes

That's interesting. There are a lot of sites and places for trading/selling digital goods at this point. steamtrades.com and the steam trades subreddit are both very popular. A lot of those keys actually come from Russia where the pricing is different. You can't buy a game on Steam from another region, but the keys typically work in any region once purchased. It's very popular for people in other countries to offer discounted versions of games for sale on demand because the prices in their region are significantly cheaper (last I heard Russian steam prices were a HUGE discount compared to other locations because of rampant piracy in Russia so they lower prices to encourage more sales, for example).

I'm curious about Gameforge gift cards and if they are the same prices across all currencies factoring in conversion rates. Perhaps these gift cards are people buying them using another currency and re-selling them for more than they paid because of conversion rates or something.

wolzarg
06-16-2015, 05:26 PM
Bought a russian diablo 3 key paid about half the price of the digital download from battlenet and was in game 2 hours before my friend who got the digital download.

Jonesy
06-16-2015, 05:41 PM
I probably could have done it quicker if I'd have been smarter with working the AH, but I've mostly done what I could with automated processes and such that have a reasonable return on investment without too much time spent.

Wait, what? You have an AH bot?

Sparrow
06-16-2015, 06:03 PM
I've always assumed discounted gift cards sold on a large scale were related to money laundering. Same thing goes for game keys sold at a discount in notoriously corrupt countries.

plaguedealer
06-16-2015, 08:02 PM
I've always assumed discounted gift cards sold on a large scale were related to money laundering. Same thing goes for game keys sold at a discount in notoriously corrupt countries.

Yea buying discounted gift cards from someone could well be a money laundering scheme. Usually, if someone approaches you with a discounted wal-mart gift card, beware. I don't think G2A is doing anything like that, but again really do your research on that kind of stuff.

Xexist
06-16-2015, 10:36 PM
There's an interesting article on polygon about how the G2A business model works, here: http://www.polygon.com/2015/2/9/8006693/the-truth-behind-those-mysteriously-cheap-gray-market-game-codes

One of the links in the comments to that article also exposes how some of the resellers on G2A do this:
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/LeszekLisowski/20141001/226840/How_to_get_every_game_on_STEAM_for_free.php

Interesting reading, thanks.

DocX
06-17-2015, 07:48 AM
There's an interesting article on polygon about how the G2A business model works, here: http://www.polygon.com/2015/2/9/8006693/the-truth-behind-those-mysteriously-cheap-gray-market-game-codes

One of the links in the comments to that article also exposes how some of the resellers on G2A do this:
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/LeszekLisowski/20141001/226840/How_to_get_every_game_on_STEAM_for_free.php

Excellent articles, both. Thank you for the links.

ossuary
06-17-2015, 08:06 AM
I think it's also important to note that not ALL secondary market transactions are scams or fraudulent. The article points out that only 20 of the 3400 accounts on Kinguin were involved in the fraudulently-purchased CD keys the article was written about. Additionally, it was not actually Kinguin's fault the keys were obtained illegally - EA's Origin service was the one that originally sold the keys (apparently accepting stolen credit card numbers repeatedly to accrue so many illegal keys so quickly). It's easy to point fingers and categorically say, "There's the problem," but the truth is very rarely so cut and dry.

I have purchased a couple of 50 euro GameForge codes from G2A in the past, and Cirouss and a few other streamers specifically advertise them in their channels and have vendor partnerships with G2A (including discount codes for their own users). From conversations with Cirouss, my understanding was that G2A sometimes gets codes directly from GameForge as a promotion. Many of the people who sell ePINs or digital gift card codes are also doing so simply because they don't want to use the card in the store it's intended for and would rather have the cash.

I've also seen online gift card retailers offer direct discounts on their sites, which come from agreements and volume discounts they get from the stores the gift cards are for. These completely legal transactions are possible and still profitable because the originating store drives more business to their locations that might not otherwise shop there, and in both the case of the store itself and the middleman service, a statistically relevant percentage of gift cards sold are never redeemed, which amounts to free money for both of them. In all of these scenarios, CZE and GameForge are getting the full value of the gift card when they accept the transaction (the actual amount the gift card is for), it's either the original store itself or the individual who sold the gift card at a reduced price that takes the loss.

This is why these transactions do not truly devalue platinum by any recognizable amount: firstly, it's not all transactions (not even close to all, not even close to a majority). Secondly, most or all of the original amount of the gift card ends up in GameForge / CZE's pockets. The only real affect on platinum value is at an individual level - a person who ONLY buys discounted platinum may compare its exchange to USD differently than an average user who just buys it 1:1, but that doesn't affect the economy as a whole, it only affects the individual player's buying activity. If anything, that player will probably be MORE likely to spend platinum on things they want, since to them it's available in slightly larger quantities for the same price as the other people they are conducting transactions with. This actually leads to increased trading activity in the official marketplace, which benefits all players in the end.

f5shooter
06-17-2015, 08:43 AM
Does anyone think set 1 chests will be valuable in the future? Like most people, I currently roll on my set 1 chests as soon as I get them. But I was thinking.... In the near future when set 1 packs are no longer being sold, people are still going to want unrolled set 1 chests, right? It's the only place you can get the sleeves from set 1.

New collectors will have no other choice to get the sleeves but to buy those unrolled chests?

plaguedealer
06-17-2015, 08:52 AM
Does anyone think set 1 chests will be valuable in the future? Like most people, I currently roll on my set 1 chests as soon as I get them. But I was thinking.... In the near future when set 1 packs are no longer being sold, people are still going to want unrolled set 1 chests, right? It's the only place you can get the sleeves from set 1.

New collectors will have no other choice to get the sleeves but to buy those unrolled chests?

That is one of the big questions everyone has. Hopefully the test server will shed some light on it. Unrolled chests may be valuable if the items in high level chests are awesome
I guess some would buy chests for wheel of fate results, but that seems like a fringe group of people.

hex_colin
06-17-2015, 09:24 AM
I think it's also important to note that not ALL secondary market transactions are scams or fraudulent. The article points out that only 20 of the 3400 accounts on Kinguin were involved in the fraudulently-purchased CD keys the article was written about. Additionally, it was not actually Kinguin's fault the keys were obtained illegally - EA's Origin service was the one that originally sold the keys (apparently accepting stolen credit card numbers repeatedly to accrue so many illegal keys so quickly). It's easy to point fingers and categorically say, "There's the problem," but the truth is very rarely so cut and dry.

I have purchased a couple of 50 euro GameForge codes from G2A in the past, and Cirouss and a few other streamers specifically advertise them in their channels and have vendor partnerships with G2A (including discount codes for their own users). From conversations with Cirouss, my understanding was that G2A sometimes gets codes directly from GameForge as a promotion. Many of the people who sell ePINs or digital gift card codes are also doing so simply because they don't want to use the card in the store it's intended for and would rather have the cash.

I've also seen online gift card retailers offer direct discounts on their sites, which come from agreements and volume discounts they get from the stores the gift cards are for. These completely legal transactions are possible and still profitable because the originating store drives more business to their locations that might not otherwise shop there, and in both the case of the store itself and the middleman service, a statistically relevant percentage of gift cards sold are never redeemed, which amounts to free money for both of them. In all of these scenarios, CZE and GameForge are getting the full value of the gift card when they accept the transaction (the actual amount the gift card is for), it's either the original store itself or the individual who sold the gift card at a reduced price that takes the loss.

This is why these transactions do not truly devalue platinum by any recognizable amount: firstly, it's not all transactions (not even close to all, not even close to a majority). Secondly, most or all of the original amount of the gift card ends up in GameForge / CZE's pockets. The only real affect on platinum value is at an individual level - a person who ONLY buys discounted platinum may compare its exchange to USD differently than an average user who just buys it 1:1, but that doesn't affect the economy as a whole, it only affects the individual player's buying activity. If anything, that player will probably be MORE likely to spend platinum on things they want, since to them it's available in slightly larger quantities for the same price as the other people they are conducting transactions with. This actually leads to increased trading activity in the official marketplace, which benefits all players in the end.

You can rationalize it all you want. The minute they sell one stolen (or misappropriated) code or take money out of the pocket of one game developer, they're not someone I'll do business with. :(

ossuary
06-17-2015, 09:33 AM
For the record, I'm not attempting to rationalize anything. I've been disturbed by some of the things I've heard about G2A recently, and I don't make purchases through them anymore as a result. I was merely trying to point out that there are two sides to this, and resellers are not categorically scam artists.

Some people (who probably didn't read the article or at least not all the way through it) were acting as though it were some kind of silver bullet proving platinum had been confirmed devalued or that those sites were the source of all perceived problems, and I was attempting to encourage a rational discussion of the issue. :)

ossuary
06-17-2015, 09:36 AM
Does anyone think set 1 chests will be valuable in the future? Like most people, I currently roll on my set 1 chests as soon as I get them. But I was thinking.... In the near future when set 1 packs are no longer being sold, people are still going to want unrolled set 1 chests, right? It's the only place you can get the sleeves from set 1.

New collectors will have no other choice to get the sleeves but to buy those unrolled chests?

Sorry for the double reply, but I just want to point out that Set 1 is not going out of print "in the near future." At the earliest, it will go out of print with the release of Set 5, possibly not even until as late as Set 7, depending on how many sets CZE decide to have in their "standard" block rotation.

The only thing that's changing with Set 3 release is that drafts will be 3-3-3 (and sealed will be 6x set 3 packs). You won't use or win Set 1 or Set 2 packs in limited anymore, but you'll still be able to buy them from the CZE store. :)

hex_colin
06-17-2015, 09:44 AM
For the record, I'm not attempting to rationalize anything. I've been disturbed by some of the things I've heard about G2A recently, and I don't make purchases through them anymore as a result. I was merely trying to point out that there are two sides to this, and resellers are not categorically scam artists.

Some people (who probably didn't read the article or at least not all the way through it) were acting as though it were some kind of silver bullet proving platinum had been confirmed devalued or that those sites were the source of all perceived problems, and I was attempting to encourage a rational discussion of the issue. :)

I should have just pulled your first paragraph.

Agreed about G2A. Never supported them, never will. Seriously considering pulling support from anyone who does business with them too. :(

KingGabriel
06-17-2015, 09:44 AM
The only thing that's changing with Set 3 release is that drafts will be 3-3-3 (and sealed will be 6x set 3 packs). You won't use or win Set 1 or Set 2 packs in limited anymore, but you'll still be able to buy them from the CZE store. :)
Isn't that still up in the air, too?

hex_colin
06-17-2015, 09:48 AM
Isn't that still up in the air, too?

Nope. Draft is 3-3-3. You can still buy Sets 1, 2, and 3.

Gwaer
06-17-2015, 09:49 AM
Isn't that still up in the air, too?

Unfortunately not. I'd love for set 1 packs to go out of print while I have tons of them. =P but I'm sure they'll still be around for a while

KingGabriel
06-17-2015, 10:01 AM
Nope. Draft is 3-3-3. You can still buy Sets 1, 2, and 3.
I checked the orange tracker a bit ago and didn't see anything. If you say so though I'll believe it.

Unfortunately not. I'd love for set 1 packs to go out of print while I have tons of them. =P but I'm sure they'll still be around for a while
I meant the drafting. :)

israel.kendall
06-17-2015, 10:10 AM
I checked the orange tracker a bit ago and didn't see anything. If you say so though I'll believe it.

I meant the drafting. :)

During a podcast interview Cory said draft will be 3-3-3. He also said there is a possibility to run 2-2-1 along side it as well.

KingGabriel
06-17-2015, 10:14 AM
During a podcast interview Cory said draft will be 3-3-3. He also said there is a possibility to run 2-2-1 along side it as well.
2 turns ahead episode 50, I know, that's what I was going off seeing as I could see no more recent/relevant source.

hex_colin
06-17-2015, 10:15 AM
He also said there is a possibility to run 2-2-1 along side it as well.

With a ton a caveats. Almost no chance we see 2-2-1 at the start of 3-3-3 drafting.

KingGabriel
06-17-2015, 10:15 AM
With a ton a caveats. Almost no chance we see 2-2-1 at the start of 3-3-3 drafting.
Almost no chance is still a chance :P

nicosharp
06-17-2015, 10:19 AM
I should have just pulled your first paragraph.

Agreed about G2A. Never supported them, never will. Seriously considering pulling support from anyone who does business with them too. :(
While I don't support them, they exist because other people do... I think it's in HEX Ent's best interest to nip this partnership in the bud... but alas, GameForge seems to hold all the leverage over how HEX makes money, and will, if history is any example, continue to make questionable decisions.

If it ain't broke don't fix it, but if you don't repair the leaks, you have a devalued product.

israel.kendall
06-17-2015, 10:21 AM
I still think a freeform draft where everyone brings any packs they have would be better than running 2-2-1. It would be fun, and the people with stacks of set 1 & 2 packs could still get some use from them.

nicosharp
06-17-2015, 10:26 AM
I still think a freeform draft where everyone brings any packs they have would be better than running 2-2-1. It would be fun, and the people with stacks of set 1 & 2 packs could still get some use from them.
If this were to work, the best way to offer this would be:
-All players need to have 3 of each playable set pack in their inventory.
-Players that do not, pay 200plat for each set of packs they do not have 3x of.
-100 plat standard entry fee applies.
-Packs are removed from inventory that apply to the random packs pulled for the draft
-Plat is restored to accounts for any packs that player had that were less than 3 for the set, that were pulled from inventory

Sounds a bit convoluted, but would be good checks and balances to make this work, and not give too much information away when a player joined a queue for this.

I think this would be fun now, but even more fun when more sets are in-game.

Svenn
06-17-2015, 10:43 AM
This is why these transactions do not truly devalue platinum by any recognizable amount: firstly, it's not all transactions (not even close to all, not even close to a majority). Secondly, most or all of the original amount of the gift card ends up in GameForge / CZE's pockets. The only real affect on platinum value is at an individual level - a person who ONLY buys discounted platinum may compare its exchange to USD differently than an average user who just buys it 1:1, but that doesn't affect the economy as a whole, it only affects the individual player's buying activity. If anything, that player will probably be MORE likely to spend platinum on things they want, since to them it's available in slightly larger quantities for the same price as the other people they are conducting transactions with. This actually leads to increased trading activity in the official marketplace, which benefits all players in the end.

It does devalue platinum (to the players, it's the same to CZE). If a few people purchase using discounted gift cards then it's no problem. If 50% of players are purchasing platinum with discounted gift cards then it's a problem and platinum IS devalued for the players (if 50% of the players are willing to spend an extra 30% platinum for something because it cost them less to buy, that will affect the pricing of items). I'm not saying this is happening now, but it is a consideration that needs to be taken into account.

I will point out that it's already not that hard to find people selling things for 60%ish of their platinum value outside of game. That's REALLY low, imo. If I can only pull out $0.60 for every $1 I put in, that's a significant loss.

ossuary
06-17-2015, 11:09 AM
It does devalue platinum (to the players, it's the same to CZE). If a few people purchase using discounted gift cards then it's no problem. If 50% of players are purchasing platinum with discounted gift cards then it's a problem and platinum IS devalued for the players (if 50% of the players are willing to spend an extra 30% platinum for something because it cost them less to buy, that will affect the pricing of items). I'm not saying this is happening now, but it is a consideration that needs to be taken into account.

It could potentially devalue platinum for the whole economy IF a significant portion of the playerbase were doing this, which they are not - which was the whole point of my post. Since a statistically very small percentage of the playerbase is redeeming platinum via discount gift cards, the economy as a whole is not noticeably impacted. Chark has stated in these forums one of the previous times this whole "devalue platinum" nonsense came up that not only can he see this activity, but he's actively keeping an eye on it - he also said they could pull support in the client for redeeming gift cards if it becomes an actual problem.

I never said it COULDN'T happen, I only said that it hasn't. :)

Yoss
06-17-2015, 12:23 PM
How is it that MTGO keeps their tickets up at 95% value while HEX plat drops to 60% value? I'm talking player cash-out value here, not value to the company.

Gwaer
06-17-2015, 12:30 PM
If I had to guess, cashing out in mtgo is a much more competitive market, with more churn and smaller margins to work in to stay viable.

plaguedealer
06-17-2015, 12:33 PM
Can you still convert a playset to a physical copy? If so, that may also be a reason.

israel.kendall
06-17-2015, 12:39 PM
How is it that MTGO keeps their tickets up at 95% value while HEX plat drops to 60% value? I'm talking player cash-out value here, not value to the company.

This is because MTGO sites can openly sell tickets without fear of being banned. People are more willing to buy from a reputable site than making a risky deal with an individual. I imagine the 60% price is there to make it appealing enough for someone to warrant taking a risk on buying it.

Gwaer
06-17-2015, 12:50 PM
Pretty sure selling mtgo stuff is just as against their TOS as hex. But competition and lack of bans have driven what players expect up. I'm sure the same thing will happen to hex eventually.

israel.kendall
06-17-2015, 12:57 PM
Pretty sure selling mtgo stuff is just as against their TOS as hex. But competition and lack of bans have driven what players expect up. I'm sure the same thing will happen to hex eventually.

Yeah, but the understanding there is that it is OK to do. We don't have that on the HEX side of the fence.

Svenn
06-17-2015, 12:58 PM
This is because MTGO sites can openly sell tickets without fear of being banned. People are more willing to buy from a reputable site than making a risky deal with an individual. I imagine the 60% price is there to make it appealing enough for someone to warrant taking a risk on buying it.
How is it any different than Hex?

MTGO ToS:

Wizards does not recognize any purported transfers or sales of Digital Objects, event tickets or other virtual assets outside of the Software. Accordingly, you are strictly prohibited from selling, gifting (except as permitted herein) or exchanging Digital Objects, event tickets or other virtual Game items for currency or other value outside of the Game.


Yeah, but the understanding there is that it is OK to do. We don't have that on the HEX side of the fence.

Yeah we do. We've been told multiple times it's okay to sell boosters and cards.

israel.kendall
06-17-2015, 01:03 PM
How is it any different than Hex?

MTGO ToS:




Yeah we do. We've been told multiple times it's okay to sell boosters and cards.

Tickets in MTGO are used as currency.

superdax
06-17-2015, 01:24 PM
How is it that MTGO keeps their tickets up at 95% value while HEX plat drops to 60% value? I'm talking player cash-out value here, not value to the company.

MTGO had the same problem before, There was too much ticket in the system and there was no way to bring it out. Their only way was with 2 tickets draft. Eventually they offered other form of tournaments with different cost. The best exemple is the 30 tickets for PPTQ (pro tour qualifiers). I used to get MTGO ticket for .80. now its close to the 1$.

I said it on another post. Hex needs an exit of Plat for it to raise its value. Doing a VIP plat only tournament for those that have no VIP or bigger tournament.

I am sure that Hex is aware of this and they will do something about it as they take secondary value quite a lot.

katkillad
06-17-2015, 01:45 PM
Yeah, but the understanding there is that it is OK to do. We don't have that on the HEX side of the fence.

Hex just promoted a tournament on their front page who's website sells cards/packs for cash.

israel.kendall
06-17-2015, 01:47 PM
Hex just promoted a tournament on their front page who's website sells cards/packs for cash.

I was talking about plat, not cards. Event tickets are closer to being a currency than being cards.

x78089
06-17-2015, 01:57 PM
If CZE was inclined to create an exchange for plat and cash and defended the 70% mark with their own funds, I believe that cash out would hold around 80-85% and that is an acceptable number for most players. They would also need to stem the gift card options as best they can, altho this would happen naturally to an extent as arbitrage takes its toll. This number would rise as hex gets more popular just like tix did in the situation provided in the earlier post. Ultimately, very little if any CZE money would ever be spent and the value of plat on the secondary would rise substantially. IMO this would erase some barriers to entry and help drive more people to play. One caveat I feel is important, this whole idea doesn't make sense until the game is further along in development and has a much larger player base.

Gwaer
06-17-2015, 01:58 PM
I was talking about plat, not cards. Event tickets are closer to being a currency than being cards.

Don't sell or buy plat from third parties.

israel.kendall
06-17-2015, 02:16 PM
Yeah, but the understanding there is that it is OK to do. We don't have that on the HEX side of the fence.

Yes, my comment was referring to plat, for clarification.

TOOT
06-17-2015, 02:18 PM
It does devalue platinum (to the players, it's the same to CZE). If a few people purchase using discounted gift cards then it's no problem. If 50% of players are purchasing platinum with discounted gift cards then it's a problem and platinum IS devalued for the players (if 50% of the players are willing to spend an extra 30% platinum for something because it cost them less to buy, that will affect the pricing of items). I'm not saying this is happening now, but it is a consideration that needs to be taken into account.

I will point out that it's already not that hard to find people selling things for 60%ish of their platinum value outside of game. That's REALLY low, imo. If I can only pull out $0.60 for every $1 I put in, that's a significant loss.


It could potentially devalue platinum for the whole economy IF a significant portion of the playerbase were doing this, which they are not - which was the whole point of my post. Since a statistically very small percentage of the playerbase is redeeming platinum via discount gift cards, the economy as a whole is not noticeably impacted. Chark has stated in these forums one of the previous times this whole "devalue platinum" nonsense came up that not only can he see this activity, but he's actively keeping an eye on it - he also said they could pull support in the client for redeeming gift cards if it becomes an actual problem.

I never said it COULDN'T happen, I only said that it hasn't. :)

How can you say it doesn't effect the economy as a whole? This really doesn't make any sense. If some entrepreneur snatched up a huge amount of gift cards at a 20% discount and began selling boosters and singles at a 10% discount of it's platinum price in cash, how does that not have an impact on what someone else's collection is worth? That's an extremely simple and basic example. What happens when someone needs to pay their rent one month and has to sell their collection as a whole for an even larger discount?

It doesn't matter how many actual people are buying, it matters how much is being bought, even by one person alone.

Want to take any guesses what a 3rd party site offered to buy a playset of Set 1 for?

Spoiler: It was under $150. Considering it costs a minimum of 60k plat (infact, it's probably over 70k) to obtain one through the AH, that doesn't bode too well for the 1-1 ratio to hold up. The population of this game is nowhere near large enough to drown out these 'outliers'.

The ratio of Kickstarter purchases to regular purchases alone is enough to throw off the 1:1 ratio without giftcards even factoring into the equation.

In a vacuum, if everyone were a kickstarter backer at a $250+ tier and were getting $800+ of stuff based on 'retail' costs, the market for everything would be at a 66%+ discount. Granted that isn't the case, but some meaningful percentage of all things purchased do fall in that category and thus swaying the levels of cashing out down to the 60% range and in quite a few instances, even lower than that.

What CZE/GF actually gets is irrelevant here. As svenn said, we are talking about player's value.

What Svenn and Yoss wrote is enough proof to me that it is currently impacting the economy.

And on a side note: where/who are the people buying AA CMK's for $90? That's where this whole discussion stemmed from and has yet to be answered.

nicosharp
06-17-2015, 02:26 PM
TOOT, Just to clarify - When you say a site will buy a "Playset" for under $150, that generally means 1 of each card from the set. I hope that helps... as it seems you are referring to in-game value of 4 of each card from the set.

Gwaer
06-17-2015, 02:27 PM
Want to know what troll and toad offered for my unopened beta starter decks they're selling for over 2000 each on their website, 300 bucks. What companies are offering to buy something for isn't actually representative of their actual value. They're going to try to screw you as much as possible to increase their profit when they resell it.

Yes. The first few companies might be trying to buy things for huge discounts. But as more people try to enter that market the offers will go up to try to entice people to sell to them. The secondary market is incredibly new right now and ripe for people to take serious advantage of sellers. It will get better, and it's not actually representative of a problem at this stage.

israel.kendall
06-17-2015, 02:37 PM
You could always try to get better prices on ebay maybe. But I would not sell my cards as low as TOOT was quoted.

Xexist
06-17-2015, 02:43 PM
Yes, my comment was referring to plat, for clarification.

lol. I think some people just see your name and feel the urge to argue with you for some reason.

TOOT
06-17-2015, 02:47 PM
Nico,

I did mean 4 of each card. And for the record, it wasn't me who inquired about the price, I am perfectly content keeping my cards. :)

nicosharp
06-17-2015, 02:48 PM
Nico,

I did mean 4 of each card. And for the record, it wasn't me who inquired about the price, I am perfectly content keeping my cards. :)
So someone asked you for a playset of 4 of each card for less than $150, when 4 of 2 cards alone are worth more by themselves...
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/659266/images/r-SKEPTICAL-THIRD-WORLD-KID-600x275.jpg
Everyone trying to make a buck.

TOOT
06-17-2015, 02:51 PM
No, someone I know wanted to sell a full playset of 4 of each card from set 1 and inquired with 3rd party sites and that was the price quoted to them.

Svenn
06-17-2015, 02:54 PM
Every time I've got a quote from a 3rd party site they offered me in the range of 20-30% of the plat value of what I'm trying to sell. I understand needing to make a profit, but it's really ridiculous.

nicosharp
06-17-2015, 02:55 PM
No, someone I know wanted to sell a full playset of 4 of each card from set 1 and inquired with 3rd party sites and that was the price quoted to them.
Gotcha...again - I think people make assumptions about what the word "Play-set" means. Regardless, If someone offers roughly 20%(or less) of somethings current value, the answer should always be "no". Unless you are at a pawn shop and need dat crack.

Thrawn
06-17-2015, 02:57 PM
Every time I've got a quote from a 3rd party site they offered me in the range of 20-30% of the plat value of what I'm trying to sell. I understand needing to make a profit, but it's really ridiculous.

If they are full stock and don't need the cards, they have no reason to offer anything higher. So why not shoot low and hope for a big profit if the seller takes it.

magic_gazz
06-17-2015, 02:59 PM
Every time I've got a quote from a 3rd party site they offered me in the range of 20-30% of the plat value of what I'm trying to sell. I understand needing to make a profit, but it's really ridiculous.

I don't even know who would be stupid enough to sell to them at that price. If you offered stuff at 50% discount you would probably get buyers straight away.

israel.kendall
06-17-2015, 03:03 PM
Gotcha...again - I think people make assumptions about what the word "Play-set" means. Regardless, If someone offers roughly 20%(or less) of somethings current value, the answer should always be "no". Unless you are at a pawn shop and need dat crack.

Speaking of this, I need to revisit my HEX pawnshop idea for draft addicts...

Sparrow
06-17-2015, 03:09 PM
In my experience play-set refers to 4x of each card -- in other words, it's got everything you need to make any legal deck (well, probably not infinite plague rats, though). 1x of each card would be a set. Though, to be sure, if I was buying a play-set, I'd verify that it was in fact 4x.

wolzarg
06-17-2015, 03:10 PM
I got offered 4$ each for my 12 angels when they were at like 1900p so yeah... those sites are for people who just want out with what they can get clearly.


A playset in magic is definined as 4x of something as far as i have understood can't speak for other games.

TOOT
06-17-2015, 03:16 PM
In my experience play-set refers to 4x of each card -- in other words, it's got everything you need to make any legal deck (well, probably not infinite plague rats, though). 1x of each card would be a set. Though, to be sure, if I was buying a play-set, I'd verify that it was in fact 4x.

That was my understanding too, as a full playset would give you everything you could possibly need to play, but it appears 4x playset is what is considered the norm, so that's what I'll use going forward to eliminate confusion. :)

Barkam
06-17-2015, 04:08 PM
I always find it interesting when people equate item's value to listed/asking price.

DocX
06-18-2015, 05:27 AM
Wait, what? You have an AH bot?

To be clear, I have programs that correlate AH price data with my personal collection. I use that information to determine what I want to manually list for sale and for what prices.

Not an AH bot.

I even made a reddit post that details my workflow, provides links to my code and gives some high level information about how you could set it up: http://www.reddit.com/r/hextcg/comments/394l95/quick_tip_to_new_drafters/cs47ffg

Again, not an AH bot.

Gwaer
06-18-2015, 05:48 AM
To be clear, I have programs that correlate AH price data with my personal collection. I use that information to determine what I want to manually list for sale and for what prices.

Not an AH bot.

I even made a reddit post that details my workflow, provides links to my code and gives some high level information about how you could set it up: http://www.reddit.com/r/hextcg/comments/394l95/quick_tip_to_new_drafters/cs47ffg

Again, not an AH bot.

Lemme know when you collect all that into windows program. =P

DocX
06-18-2015, 06:56 AM
Lemme know when you collect all that into windows program. =P

The chances of that are very close to none. I'm happy on the Unix/OS X side of the fence. Unless I have some compelling reason to do that (class assignment, job-related work, getting paid by someone to do it, etc), it's not likely to happen. But, on the plus side, if someone else wants to take my general framework and implement it on Windows, all the code's out there :-)

Ariathor
06-18-2015, 02:18 PM
Lemme know when you collect all that into windows program. =P

I have a draft analyzer program for personal use and I've also written a small part that looks through your collection and AH prices and finds some deals. If you can run python code I can give it to you. Eventually I might look into converting it into a windows program and creating an installer for it, but I've been pretty busy lately, so probably not too soon.

Yoss
06-18-2015, 04:21 PM
The websites (hexprice, tcgbrowser, etc) are nice and all, but I'm still waiting for Apps to run local that tie out my collection to AH data and help me make faster/better market decisions.

Cirouss
06-23-2015, 01:55 PM
You can rationalize it all you want. The minute they sell one stolen (or misappropriated) code or take money out of the pocket of one game developer, they're not someone I'll do business with. :(

For your and everyones info, what ossuary says is partically right but not all. It is that easy: Gameforge and G2A have a partner cooporation, Gameforge sells those codes for a bit cheaper to G2A, that way G2A makes sure they sell. It is like a publisher releases a game. Local game stores get of course a cut because they have them in a shelf and sell them. That is not much different.

I know there has been some things with G2A where people sold some stuff that was not correct and so on. However, that was a long time ago and especially on those gameforge codes - It is an official partnership between G2A and Gameforge. IMO nothing to worry about, they will have their reasons to take G2A as a partner.

-MY- Oppinion on the G2A topic.

magic_gazz
06-23-2015, 01:59 PM
So you are saying that G2A are allowed to buy and sell large amounts of discounted platinum?

Why is this allowed? If players are banned from this activity, it does not seem right.

Cirouss
06-23-2015, 02:05 PM
So you are saying that G2A are allowed to buy and sell large amounts of discounted platinum?

Why is this allowed? If players are banned from this activity, it does not seem right.

You are right, selling or buying platinum is not allowed. Is G2A selling platinum? No. No one gets banned for using Gameforge coupons, thats a legit way to buy platinum. And besides, those Gameforge coupons can be used on any Gameforge game.

Gwaer
06-23-2015, 02:08 PM
You are right, selling or buying platinum is not allowed. Is G2A selling platinum? No. No one gets banned for using Gameforge coupons, thats a legit way to buy platinum. And besides, those Gameforge coupons can be used on any Gameforge game.

I think the issue comes down to the fact that I'm not aware of any other gameforge game that has in game currency pegged with the ?USD. That's the issue with unlimited discounts.

Cirouss
06-23-2015, 02:13 PM
I think the issue comes down to the fact that I'm not aware of any other gameforge game that has in game currency pegged with the ?USD. That's the issue with unlimited discounts.


I can not confirm that but I am pretty sure that atleast bigger titles like Tera, S.K.I.L.L. or even Metin 2 (You wont beleive how big that game is) have seperate servers attached with USD

Gwaer
06-23-2015, 02:20 PM
I can not confirm that but I am pretty sure that atleast bigger titles like Tera, S.K.I.L.L. or even Metin 2 (You wont beleive how big that game is) have seperate servers attached with USD

No, you're missing the point, yes Tera definitely, which is a fun game that I have played takes USD, but accepting USD wasn't really the thrust of my point. No other gameforge game has a digital currency within it that is tied directly to a real currency. 100p = $1 in order to drive a collectible market. That breaks down when an unlimited amount of plat is available for less than 100p = 1$. Some plat being discounted for various reasons is fine, but unlimited sources of cheaper currency will eventually devalue it.

magic_gazz
06-24-2015, 02:22 PM
Even if it is Gameforge selling the cheap platinum to G2A its still a problem.

If Hex has said there will be a set price, but then their own partner undercuts them then that says there is a problem.