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Thoom
06-18-2015, 12:17 AM
I'm getting a little worried about the templating on Shift effects.

Compare the original version of Marrowmage spoiled:

https://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Marrowmagex450.png

with the one that seems to be final:

https://hextcg.com/wp-content/themes/hex/images/autocard/Marrowmage.png

Maybe it's just me, but I think the first version was superior in pretty much every way. It was more concise, and WAY less confusing. Does the new Marrowmage have two copies of his ability, or is the text being displayed twice because of templating? I guess we'll find out tomorrow, but I certainly couldn't tell you just by looking.

I don't think Shift effects need the redundant [BASIC][1SHOT]: (1) -> templating either, unless there are plans to make quick speed shifts, or differently costed ones. Even in that case, I think I'd prefer just calling a quick speed shift "Swiftshift" or something.

Thoughts?

WolfCrypt
06-18-2015, 12:22 AM
I think basic and 1shot is kinda bulky maybe just have that in the text box when you hover over it?

Malicus
06-18-2015, 12:26 AM
The newer templating works much better to me. My main question previously was if shift was moving the ability or giving the ability to something new which this seems to clarify. additionally you need to have basic and 1 shot in the templating that way to be consistent since the default for abilities is no basic and repeatable.

Salverus
06-18-2015, 12:27 AM
all it means is that if you shift it to another troop, the original troop still keeps the power and does not lose it.
But with the Extended Art feature coming, i am not going to look at the text anymore, so it is fine for me :cool:

Mejis
06-18-2015, 01:21 AM
all it means is that if you shift it to another troop, the original troop still keeps the power and does not lose it.
But with the Extended Art feature coming, i am not going to look at the text anymore, so it is fine for me :cool:

Wait, I thought shift moved the ability, not copied it to another troop?

Voormas
06-18-2015, 01:22 AM
I dont think the original creature does keep it though - from the original article;


First, let’s take a look at Marrowmage. Drawing a card each time he hits the opposing champion is sweet, but what happens when your opponent inevitably drops a blocker? With Shift, you can pay 1 resource to move this power at basic speed off this otherwise humble troop and place it on any other troop you control. Once you’ve moved the power, Shift falls off and the power is permanently on that new troop.

WolfCrypt
06-18-2015, 01:23 AM
Who told you it copies? Even the lore suggests Shift moves.

Salverus
06-18-2015, 01:27 AM
https://hextcg.com/wp-content/themes/hex/images/autocard/Marrowmage.png

this card keeps it after being shifted, since only the 'basic one shot' part from the card disappears and the first two lines remain right?

if it doesnt, then they are only trying to make things more and more confusing and they should have left it at the original design.

Ariathor
06-18-2015, 01:27 AM
I agree that with the second template to me it looks like it has the ability itself and it also has an "extra copy" of the ability to shift.

poizonous
06-18-2015, 01:32 AM
Shift specifically says it moves its ability from itself to another troop. The new templating is just showing you that the original troop has the ability until you choose to shift it

You are literally shifting the words from 1 card to a new card, anything in the shifted ability area will move from this card to target card

eimerian
06-18-2015, 01:48 AM
https://hextcg.com/wp-content/themes/hex/images/autocard/Marrowmage.png

Maybe it's just me, but I think the first version was superior in pretty much every way. It was more concise, and WAY less confusing. Does the new Marrowmage have two copies of his ability, or is the text being displayed twice because of templating? I guess we'll find out tomorrow, but I certainly couldn't tell you just by looking.


Agree, this is ambiguous.
The new template makes it seem like it has the ability AND can grant the ability to another troop.
The older template Shift: Paragraph made it intuitively clear that the rules text after the keyword would be moved to another card.

Also if you over-explain shift with BASIC and ONE-SHOT on every card it doesn't even have to be a keyword on its own anymore. You could replace it with "A troop you control gets.."

Imagine the template for lifedrain was changed into something like this:
"Whenever this deals damage -> Lifedrain: You gain life equal to the damage dealt"
It would make Lifedrain as a keyword unnecessary.

Salverus
06-18-2015, 01:54 AM
I rather have a card that i do not understand at all then a card where i think it does X but in reality it does Y.
Because in the first example you play the card carefully for the first time to test what it does, or maybe even test it in a quick AI battle. But in the second case you will play cards differently because you expect them to behave differently, which might cost you a game.
I think cards you should feel as intuitive as possible, which this is not doing at the moment.
(ps the other cards that do not feel intuitive for me are the ones with "3XX" cost, almost impossible to know how much it cost and how much you get in return)

Cernz
06-18-2015, 02:03 AM
Id prefer:

When this deals damage to a champion, draw a card for each damage dealt, [BASIC][1SHOT]: 1 -> Shift this ability to a troop you control.

or something similar =)

atm it sounds like the card is keeping the ability and can also inspire a other card with the same ability.

poizonous
06-18-2015, 02:05 AM
Id prefer:

When this deals damage to a champion, draw a card for each damage dealt, [BASIC][1SHOT]: 1 -> Shift this abilty to a troop you control.

or something similar =)

That is a good template, but i personally dont see an issue with the new template. Shift explicitly says Transfer an ability from Troop A to Troop B

Cernz
06-18-2015, 02:07 AM
That is a good template, but i personally dont see an issue with the new template. Shift explicitly says Transfer an ability from Troop A to Troop B

true, veterans and ppl. who serious play hex wont have a problem with this, but id prefer to keep it simple esp. for newer players, no need to make it more "difficult" than it could be.

poizonous
06-18-2015, 02:15 AM
true, veterans and ppl. who serious play hex wont have a problem with this, but id prefer to keep it simple esp. for newer players, no need to make it more "difficult" than it could be.

I agree to an extent, my issue is this... When I started playing magic, some of the cards were like "WTF does this do?" They didnt dumb down their wording to cater to new players, you just eventually get smarter and catch on. And look at MtG now, still going strong getting new players all the time.

Why must we dumb things down? Sorry if I seem rude but this is something I am really adamant about, and it shows in a couple of threads.

Fateanomaly
06-18-2015, 02:24 AM
I think its fine either way. All they need is to see the ability in action once and they will know what it does the next time. Though i think i prefer Cernz's suggestion.

Cernz
06-18-2015, 02:49 AM
I agree to an extent, my issue is this... When I started playing magic, some of the cards were like "WTF does this do?" They didnt dumb down their wording to cater to new players, you just eventually get smarter and catch on. And look at MtG now, still going strong getting new players all the time.

Why must we dumb things down? Sorry if I seem rude but this is something I am really adamant about, and it shows in a couple of threads.

it does not sound rude to me, im with you in this case, but with a small difference, we should not dumb down the mechanics - but maybe dumbing down the "interface/wording" would not be that bad - its all about usability + clean and clear "display".

poizonous
06-18-2015, 02:58 AM
Agreed, and I always seem to apologize for sounding rude especially since my opinions arent normally met well by others and people think i argue, when really I just debate

Cernz
06-18-2015, 03:02 AM
hehe np :) i do prefer ppl like you over bootlickers ;D <3

Kurasa
06-18-2015, 03:07 AM
It could be confusing for people new to the mechanic whether the ability copies or moves with the current template, but I think that's okay, especially if it's clarified when you hover over the keyword or zoom in on the card. I think the potential issue with Cernz's suggestion is "what happens if they want to make a troop that has shift and multiple abilities?" Similarly, they need to include Basic and the cost if they want to be able to design troops that shift at quick speed or for different costs. One-shot is more debatable, but I guess there's the possibility of shift abilities that can keep shifting around in the future or something.

So while my first impression of the template was "this looks really clunky" I'm warming up to it a bit. Seems like it leaves room to explore more design space around the keyword and still be consistent.

Pheelon
06-18-2015, 03:21 AM
hmm, imo a Template like:



{None Shift Ability Text}
Shift: {Shift Ability Text}
[BASIC] [1-SHOT] (1) --> Shift Ability (to target Troop)


Would be easier to understand.

Marsden
06-18-2015, 04:13 AM
Yeah, that's much better Pheelon.

ossuary
06-18-2015, 04:43 AM
I believe the final version of the templating is still a work in progress. What we are seeing now is likely not the final version of how it will look in-client once Set 3 is released.

Showsni
06-18-2015, 05:22 AM
Maybe it's a functional change to the card? Perhaps Marrowmage was changed to also still have the ability after shifting?

WolfCrypt
06-18-2015, 05:31 AM
I really don't see why everyone thinks Shift copies....

Xenavire
06-18-2015, 05:59 AM
I really don't see why everyone thinks Shift copies....

People got used to the original template, which was clear about giving the ability away. However, the new template has the text apart from the shift ability, which, according to other cards templates, implies that the ability is on the card twice - once as a base ability, and once as a 1-shot that grants the ability to another troop.

It should be cleared up tonight hopefully, but the templating change has definitely been confusing to some people.

EntropyBall
06-18-2015, 08:07 AM
I think the old templating was better. I would intuitively read the new card and think it had the card draw, and could also grant the card draw ability to one other troop. I think the template Cernz posted (or something very similar) is best. I think the original template is fine, or just a "Shift 1:" to indicate it costs 1 and future shift abilities may be more/less. It doesn't need to be spelled out as "BASIC ONE-SHOT", since that is an inherent part of the Shift keyword. Even if they think they will give Quick-speed Shift actions in the future, those could just be labeled "QUICK Shift", as they would be the exception.

WolfCrypt
06-18-2015, 08:14 AM
Just have it say "Shift 1" and when you hover over 'Shift' it says "Choose one troop you control and void this card that troop gains text of this card. On next turn return this card to field without Shift text" Simple painless perfect.

ossuary
06-18-2015, 08:19 AM
Except that using shift doesn't cause the original troop to leave play. :p

WolfCrypt
06-18-2015, 08:24 AM
I thought that was the idea I seem to recall it did that.. used to.

Kurasa
06-18-2015, 08:38 AM
I thought that was the idea I seem to recall it did that.. used to.

Pretty sure you're thinking of Mistlord, who had a shiftable ability to void himself and come back.



I think the old templating was better. I would intuitively read the new card and think it had the card draw, and could also grant the card draw ability to one other troop. I think the template Cernz posted (or something very similar) is best. I think the original template is fine, or just a "Shift 1:" to indicate it costs 1 and future shift abilities may be more/less. It doesn't need to be spelled out as "BASIC ONE-SHOT", since that is an inherent part of the Shift keyword. Even if they think they will give Quick-speed Shift actions in the future, those could just be labeled "QUICK Shift", as they would be the exception.

I'd agree with you in a vacuum but doing things this way would create a conflict with some previous templating choices. No activated abilities are labeled as quick right now, just actions and troops. Tunneling, another keyword that currently has Basic built in, is always labeled as such. Granted I'm pretty sure the same argument sprung up around that one, so you can make an argument that they should change it to match. And honestly I can't argue for the current version on aesthetics. I just see a line of thinking behind it that makes sense to me.

EntropyBall
06-18-2015, 11:13 AM
I think the "BASIC 1SHOT" text is, in general, really crappy looking on the cards. I don't have a brilliant alternative suggestion though.

IronPheasant
06-18-2015, 08:28 PM
Only alternative I see is to not have the rectangular background and use a different color for the text or just leave it as any other text.

I find the -> arrows a little redundant, too. It keeps making me think it's a tap symbol.

selpai
06-19-2015, 06:12 AM
I feel that the best template for this type of ability would be to have [<-- "Shift"] appear after the text to be shifted, with a description for what the ability does appearing when you click on the keyword. It's very confusing and unattractive the way it is now.

EntropyBall
06-19-2015, 06:55 AM
Only alternative I see is to not have the rectangular background and use a different color for the text or just leave it as any other text.

I find the -> arrows a little redundant, too. It keeps making me think it's a tap symbol.
Yeah, I think the block white background is part of what I don't like. Now that they've got an Orange color for "Quick", maybe they can just use the same font/color for Basic.

Jonesy
06-19-2015, 05:45 PM
I still hate the quick templating, but at least now with that ugly orange text I notice it less than two months after the card gets released.

Shift templating is also terrible, it certainly implies that the troop has the ability and gets to keep it post shift. The original templating was superior in every way unless they plan to have quick ones or ones that have a cost other than 1. But even then it would seem far superior to me to just have it say "Shift, Basic 1: ..." or something to that effect. The one-shot seems entirely redundant.

Xenavire
06-19-2015, 05:56 PM
I still hate the quick templating, but at least now with that ugly orange text I notice it less than two months after the card gets released.


Blasphemy! The quick templating has been made more than acceptable, and the orange colour rocks. I hope they consider making basic just Basic to make the change feel nice and consistent.

Mejis
06-19-2015, 06:37 PM
Blasphemy! The quick templating has been made more than acceptable, and the orange colour rocks. I hope they consider making basic just Basic to make the change feel nice and consistent.

Agreed, the orange is lovely for me. Stands out perfectly.

sukebe
06-19-2015, 07:27 PM
Wasn't there cards with shift that lose their ability and some that don't? At least when the test server was up there were some cards that had the ability listed like the first image in the OP but some that had the wording listed like the second image in the OP (all of these had localization issues). I assumed that the cards like the first image would lose the ability and that cards like the second image would keep it, since it was listed separately.

wolzarg
06-21-2015, 08:26 AM
Wasn't there cards with shift that lose their ability and some that don't? At least when the test server was up there were some cards that had the ability listed like the first image in the OP but some that had the wording listed like the second image in the OP (all of these had localization issues). I assumed that the cards like the first image would lose the ability and that cards like the second image would keep it, since it was listed separately.
I can't say for 100% sure i used every shift on test but as far as i can tell this is not the case they all lose it. I personally liked the test version of shift but i guess i can see how it would confuse people especially since most shift cards are over costed for their size making it from a overview perspective only seem fair they keep it and give it.

Aradon
06-21-2015, 08:34 AM
I have to say, I liked the first template we saw where it was just 'Shift: Ability.' As long as Shift can get a tooltip or something describing the ability, or reminder text on the commons & uncommons.

Lefto
06-21-2015, 08:43 AM
I also found the new template misleading/confusing.

HellFro
06-21-2015, 09:20 AM
I love the new Quick! And I think a new Basic, 1-Shot would solve the ugly block problem.

Not sure how to intuitively solve the shift and lose ability issue. By having both text it seems like a copy over ability but having only the original template makes it seem like the card doesn't have the ability but can bestow it to another card.

sukebe
06-21-2015, 10:41 AM
I can't say for 100% sure i used every shift on test but as far as i can tell this is not the case they all lose it. I personally liked the test version of shift but i guess i can see how it would confuse people especially since most shift cards are over costed for their size making it from a overview perspective only seem fair they keep it and give it.

that would likely be because the ones that are worded in such a way to imply they keep their abilities all also said "Localization Error" which we were told means they were not yet working properly. Each and every one of the shift cards worded like this had a localization error.

IronPheasant
06-21-2015, 12:47 PM
I personally liked the test version of shift but i guess i can see how it would confuse people especially since most shift cards are over costed for their size making it from a overview perspective only seem fair they keep it and give it.

Actually I've seen most of them as on-curve for limited. 2/2 flier for 3. 3/2 for 3 in blue.

https://hextcg.com/wp-content/themes/hex/images/autocard/Chimera%20Guard%20Fallen.png

They're incredible if you can get a card that makes better use of their ability onto the field. The dude who grants lethal is definitely stronger than the card Lethal Weapons (a card that you never want to see multiples of in your hand).


I have to say, I liked the first template we saw where it was just 'Shift: Ability.' As long as Shift can get a tooltip or something describing the ability, or reminder text on the commons & uncommons.

Yes, it looks and reads and parses so much freaking nicer.

Just because we have the space for an infinite amount of text on the internet, that doesn't mean we should try to use it all.

Barkam
06-21-2015, 12:54 PM
I have to say, I liked the first template we saw where it was just 'Shift: Ability.' As long as Shift can get a tooltip or something describing the ability, or reminder text on the commons & uncommons.

Agreed. It keeps it simple. Shift just means is that ability can be moved to another troop.

ForgedSol
06-21-2015, 01:00 PM
I never saw the old version. I only saw the new version when looking at the complete Set 3 list. (I wasn't able to get into the test server to play with the cards.)

From just looking at the cards, I had no idea what Shift did and was expecting a mouse hover to explain it. For me it all looks like random nonsense of repeating the card's ability for no reason. Looking at Chimera Guard Fallen, I would think the creature's ability is doubled.

After reading that shift is about giving the ability to someone else, I did immediately think the card would keep the ability and grant its ability to another card.

I do like the original templating better if there is a reminder on mouse hover, but that may create problems for mobile devices down the line. I also like Pheelon's suggestion. Both are better than the current method.

IronPheasant
06-21-2015, 01:11 PM
but that may create problems for mobile devices down the line.

People can poke their finger on the bolded Shift text.

The new templating seems more to be about being REALLY CLEAR that the card in question has that ability on itself in the first place. I mean, any confusion would be quickly cleared up by playing the game a little and seeing what happens.

Basically the opposite problem of joyous fun rules text here.

ForgedSol
06-21-2015, 01:23 PM
If there's a mobile solution, that's great.

The new templating does make it really clear that card in question has the ability. I'm guessing a mouse hover on Shift tells you that it means that the power is granted to another card... and I assume it has to also be really clear that the original card also loses the ability. I'm very curious as to how that's worded though.